0:00

The story we tell ourselves is

0:02

critical in terms of whether

0:04

we persist how we feel and

0:06

the person that we are and the person we've become

0:16

welcome to, the one you feed Throughout

0:19

time. Great thinkers have recognized the

0:21

importance of the thoughts we have, quotes

0:23

like garbage in, garbage out,

0:26

or you are what you think ring

0:28

true, and yet for many of

0:30

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

0:32

us. We tend toward negativity,

0:35

self pity, jealousy, or

0:37

fear. We see what we don't have

0:39

instead of what we do. We think

0:41

things that hold us back and dampen our

0:43

spirit. But it's not just about

0:45

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:48

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:50

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:53

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

0:55

moving in the right direction, how they

0:57

feed their good wolf. Thanks

1:12

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:14

is Eric Barker, whose humorous

1:16

practical blog Barking Up the Wrong Tree

1:19

presents science based answers and expert

1:21

insight on how to be awesome at life.

1:23

Over three hundred thousand people subscribe

1:26

to his weekly newsletter, and his content

1:28

is syndicated by Time magazine. The

1:30

Week and Business Insider. In

1:33

his book Barking Up the Wrong Tree, Eric

1:35

reveals the extraordinary science behind

1:37

what actually determines success and most

1:39

importantly, how anyone can achieve

1:41

it. If you're getting

1:43

value out of the show, please go to one you feed

1:46

dot Net slash Support and make

1:48

a donation. This will ensure that all

1:51

five episodes that are in the archive will

1:53

remain free and that the show is

1:55

here for other people who need it. Some

1:57

other ways that you can support is is

2:00

if you're interested in the book that we're discussing on

2:02

today's episode, go to one you

2:04

feed dot net and find the episode

2:06

that we're talking about. There will be links to all

2:08

of the author's books, and if you buy them through there,

2:11

it's the same price to you, but we get a small

2:13

amount. Also, you can go to one you

2:15

feed dot Net slash book and

2:17

I have a reading list there when you

2:19

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2:22

you can buy t shirts, mugs and other things.

2:24

And finally, one you feed dot Net

2:26

Slash Facebook, which is where our Facebook

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2:31

listeners of the show and get support

2:33

in feeding your Good Wolf. Thanks again

2:35

for listening, and

2:38

here's the interview with Eric Barker.

2:41

Hi, Eric, welcome to the show. It's great to be here.

2:43

I have read your blog for a while called Barking

2:45

Up the Wrong Tree, and recently

2:47

you wrote a book called Barking Up

2:50

the Wrong Tree, The Surprising science behind

2:52

why everything you know about

2:54

success is mostly wrong. So

2:57

we'll get into the book in a minute. And as I was joking

2:59

with you before we started, I actually broke

3:02

the Amazon highlight limit for

3:04

your book. So lots and lots of great stuff,

3:06

we'll only get to a fraction of it um

3:09

and so I'll encourage listeners to get the book.

3:11

It's wonderful. But let's start like we always do

3:13

with the parable. There's a grandfather

3:15

who's talking with his grandson and

3:17

he says, in life, there are two wolves inside

3:20

of us that are always at battle. What

3:22

is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness

3:25

and bravery and love, and the

3:27

other is a bad wolf, which represents

3:29

things like greed and hatred and fear.

3:32

The grandson stops and thinks about it for a second

3:34

and looks up at his grandfather and he says, well,

3:36

grandfather, which one wins?

3:39

And the grandfather says, the one you

3:41

feed. So I'd like to start off

3:43

by asking you what that paril means

3:45

to you in your life and in the work that you do.

3:47

I've actually had that parable in UM

3:49

blog post I did so UM, so

3:52

I take it very seriously. And for

3:54

me, you know, I believe that

3:56

you know, we have patterns of behavior, and

3:58

we we have had and you can take

4:01

that all the way down to the neuroscience level. And

4:03

you know, if you spend more time angry, if

4:05

you spend more time you know, upset,

4:08

if you spend more time and envy than you do enjoy

4:10

and gratitude, it's going to become a habitual

4:12

pattern of behavior. And you

4:14

know, I think it's it's something we have to be cognizant

4:17

of, that that that's always in us, that ability

4:20

to change, to choose which side of ourselves

4:22

we're going to be. So it's something I'm very

4:24

cognizant of and something I

4:26

try and I definitely try and think

4:28

about. Which wolf I'm feeding excellent.

4:31

Let's start with the words

4:33

success, because your book is about success,

4:36

but I'd like to go kind of to the end of the book

4:38

where you talk about what success

4:41

is and how to measure it. So let's start there and

4:43

then we can work our way back from there. So what

4:46

is success in the sense that you're using

4:48

it well? In the end, I do recommend

4:50

that, you know, people need a personal definition

4:53

of success that given

4:56

the modern era, you know, you go on the internet,

4:58

you watch TV, and you are c in the

5:00

point zero zero one most

5:03

uh, the richest, most beautiful,

5:05

most intelligent, most accomplished,

5:08

accomplished people. So we're constantly

5:10

seeing unrealistic standards

5:13

of a lot of definitions of success.

5:15

And with the work life balance issue, you know, now with technology,

5:17

we're able to work seven and that sets

5:20

up a very dangerous paradigm

5:22

where we're shown these unattainable

5:25

levels of success, uh, and we're

5:27

given the ability if we so choose

5:29

to to work seven. So

5:32

we're it's incumbent upon all of us to have

5:34

a personal definition of success to to say

5:36

when is enough for me? And

5:39

I talk about the issue. There's some research by

5:42

Nash and Stevenson at Harvard showing

5:44

that it takes a balance of four

5:46

metrics. You know, to have a

5:49

well rounded life, you need

5:51

to not only be concerned with, you know,

5:53

success in terms of money or achievement,

5:56

you know, or success in terms of just relationships

5:59

are happiness, you know, because we

6:01

need to be able to pay the rent, and we also need

6:03

to have people who love us and who we love

6:06

UH, And you know one or the other UH

6:08

is not is not going to cut it. Nash

6:10

and Stevenson found that people need for

6:13

they need to be they need to be accomplished in four

6:15

metrics. Number one is happiness in other words, do you enjoy

6:17

what you're doing? Achievement are you achieving

6:19

your goals? Uh? Number three is significance.

6:22

Is what you're doing benefiting the ones

6:24

you love and forth as legacy in

6:26

some small way, or you're making the world a better place.

6:29

So you know, I think success is something

6:31

that should be personal. Um,

6:33

you know, and has to be personal

6:36

because if we take the off the rack definition

6:38

of success, then we're gonna be chasing those people

6:41

on TV UH two completely

6:43

unattainable standards and we're

6:45

not going to live a happy life.

6:47

Yeah. I love the way you put it. I'm just going to

6:49

read a quote from the book. You have to

6:52

make a decision. The world will not draw

6:54

a line. You must. You need

6:56

to ask what do I want? Otherwise

6:58

you're only going to get what they want. Sorry

7:01

to have to break this to you, but in today's world,

7:03

having it all isn't possible when

7:05

others determine the limits in each category.

7:08

And I think that's just a great way of

7:10

of stating that you're right,

7:12

we we have to take this on

7:15

ourselves to decide when is enough.

7:18

And I also like the idea of you

7:20

know, evaluating life by one metric turning

7:22

out to be you say, it turns out to be a

7:24

key problem. We can't use just one yardstick.

7:27

And that just when I read that, it just seemed

7:29

so obvious on one hand and yet

7:32

very profound on the others that I don't think that's

7:34

what a lot of us do. Yeah, it's it's

7:37

a problem. A problem they called the you

7:39

know, having a collapsing metric

7:41

where basically try and collapse all of success

7:43

and happiness into one metric. And of course

7:45

that metric is usually dollars, simply

7:47

because our society promotes that, but also

7:50

because dollars are easy to count. You know, it's it's

7:52

very difficult to say how good a father

7:54

was I today? How good a husband you

7:56

know was I today? You only get an

7:59

employee review a job, typically annually

8:01

but it's very easy to look at your your bank

8:03

balance or look in your wallet, you

8:06

know, and count dollars and have a

8:08

video game style score of how

8:10

you're doing. And so it often,

8:13

you know, we we collapse it into one metric and

8:15

as we know, or I hope we know, uh,

8:18

you know, money is nice, but it you

8:20

know, it's it's it's not everything, and

8:23

and having trying to collapse all of success

8:25

into one metric is is not

8:28

a good way to go about things. Yep. And I'm

8:30

always a fan of the middle way with

8:32

things like finding the middle

8:34

path, and I think that idea of

8:37

On one hand, people say, well, money doesn't

8:39

make you happy, right, so some people go all the way

8:42

you know, on the well what's the point? And then other people

8:44

everything is about money. And what I like about

8:46

what you're saying is money is in there, but

8:48

there are other factors that we have to consider

8:51

also if we want to truly have

8:53

a life that makes sense for us and and

8:56

meets our own definition of success. Absolutely.

8:59

I mean, there's plenty of research

9:01

that shows money can buy happiness,

9:04

but it's not in the way

9:06

we typically think, um,

9:08

you know, in terms of you know, buying a big

9:10

house or a ferrari or something like that.

9:13

When people use their money to

9:15

buy themselves more free time, so

9:18

to hire someone to to say, clean

9:20

their house versus doing it themselves, you know, that

9:22

does promote happiness. When people spend money

9:25

on others, um, that promotes

9:27

happiness. You know, there there are ways whereby

9:30

money brings happiness, but it's not the

9:32

the end all be all. It's usually

9:34

as a lever towards towards

9:36

something else, towards. When you're buying gifts for other

9:38

people, you're using money to enhance

9:40

your relationships. And the research shows

9:43

that relationships so the number one source of happiness.

9:46

So the green rectangle you know,

9:48

does not deliver happiness directly.

9:50

If you use it in the right way, it can facilitate

9:53

happiness. Often we don't use it in the right

9:55

way, but we can facilitate happiness.

9:58

And I I would argue, um that

10:00

you know money, money is good defensively.

10:03

You know, it prevents it certainly prevents

10:05

problems UH that can

10:08

uh that can reduce happiness.

10:10

And you know some of some of the research you

10:12

know basically shows that once you can pay

10:14

your bills, once you can can

10:17

uh, you know, are are protected from

10:19

being in debt, from not being able to

10:21

to pay the rent. That money

10:23

has diminishing marginal value.

10:26

It still has a benefit. But but again,

10:29

the you'd have to trade off,

10:32

you know, that extra hour at the office,

10:34

how much do you make per hour? How

10:36

much would how much happiness would

10:39

spending that time with friends or family bring? You?

10:41

So if you do that math, you know roughly

10:43

in your head, you know, hey, if you are

10:45

an investment banker, perhaps perhaps

10:48

that extra hour would bring you enough money to

10:51

to overcome the happiness of relationship.

10:53

But for most people, relationships

10:55

bring so much more money than happiness that chasing

10:58

money is is is not the good way to go,

11:00

right, And you say, the problem that in the quest

11:02

for what makes me feel good, there's no finish

11:04

line. And I think that's what things

11:07

like money or other success

11:09

metrics for me have shown

11:11

is that if I'm not evaluating

11:14

the way I'm looking at the whole thing, I

11:16

reach one one goal post

11:18

and then I just reset the next, and I reset

11:21

the next. You know, I got you know, for me, one of them is

11:23

downloads of show Right, so I get X

11:25

number and then all of a sudden, that's normal and I need

11:27

the next number and the next number and

11:29

so. And I think money can very much

11:31

and has been for me very much the

11:33

same thing. In certain cases. It never

11:35

really ends, you know, We're always gonna want things.

11:38

There's no kind of end to it, there

11:41

you That's why we need to decide what's

11:43

enough, you know, and to to sit there and really

11:45

think about it, as opposed to wait

11:48

until the next shiny thing pops up and then

11:50

oh we want something new again. Um,

11:52

you know where the promotion gets dangled in front

11:54

of you and then all of a sudden you're working more

11:56

than you wanted to know. It's it's something

11:58

we really need to think about in advances because in the

12:00

spare of the moment, as with many things, in the spare

12:02

of the moment, you're probably not going to make the best decision

12:05

if you haven't if you haven't thought it through beforehand.

12:07

Ye. And it would be easier if those things didn't

12:09

give a temporary boost, right.

12:11

I think that's what's so challenging is they tend

12:13

to work, at least for me briefly,

12:16

So there's a brief bump and then you

12:18

know, I think they call it adaptation. Right then, I'm kind

12:20

of back to where I was before. And

12:22

I think that's what makes it a little bit. If

12:24

it just didn't work at all, would be really easy to dismiss

12:27

it. But it works briefly, and I think that becomes

12:29

confusing. Absolutely. You know, it's

12:31

it's because it's new. It's a novel, and

12:33

you know, our brains like things that are better

12:35

new and novel. You know, it's it's very

12:37

simple. I mean, if you if you continue

12:40

to live the lifestyle that you know you

12:42

did, you know, uh, you know, after

12:44

high school or in college, and you know, you lived

12:46

an average career and got pay raises and

12:48

got promotions, you'd be sitting

12:51

pretty you probably have a ton of money in the bank. But

12:53

but that's not what happens. What happens is,

12:55

yes, that that hedonic adaptation where

12:58

you know, Okay, this apartment is not big enough, I want

13:00

a bigger apartment. Okay, well I don't want to partment

13:02

anymore. I want a house. Okay, you know, I want a bigger house

13:04

because no, I'm gonna have a family and that, you know,

13:06

and my car is not a shame where don't want a new

13:08

car? And so you keep wanting those things

13:10

and you know, it's it's very often,

13:13

you know, people find all

13:15

too often, you know, that their needs seem

13:17

to always line up with the level

13:19

of income there at and

13:21

and we could prevent that, but we don't want to. And

13:24

um, you know, and I'm not recommending that everybody

13:27

everybody lived their entire lives like a college

13:29

student, but it is an option, but we choose

13:31

not to do it. And again, it's

13:33

because we have this this uh, you know,

13:35

we want novel things, we want nice things,

13:37

but it's usually because we haven't taken

13:39

the time to really sit through what is really going

13:41

to make us happy, you know, in the long run,

13:44

versus that immediate next kind

13:46

of uh oh wow, cool boost

13:49

uh. And you know it's the it's the same thing. You

13:51

know, food is tasty and

13:53

and so people, you know, we we like the

13:55

way food tastes and you

13:57

know, and now we have an obesity epidemic. Right,

14:00

let's shift gears. You're talking about how we like novelty,

14:03

and so let's talk about one of the things that you

14:05

cover in the book is how turning

14:08

the things that we do in our life where we can

14:10

into games can be very helpful.

14:13

And what it is about those

14:15

strategies that actually make it work. Yeah,

14:17

it's really interesting because we all have lots

14:19

of you know, lots of things we do that are

14:22

very frustrating and difficult, and

14:24

we we fail at them a bunch of times, and

14:26

it drives us crazy. If you look

14:28

at you know, like video games, they

14:31

can be frustrating, you fail a lot of times,

14:33

and then people love them and

14:35

you know, it's it's great and it's very

14:38

interesting to look at. And sometimes we get that

14:40

feeling. Sometimes we say, gee,

14:42

what am I doing wrong? And all of a sudden, you're trying to fix the

14:44

sink and it becomes like a detective story

14:47

and you know, what he is wrong here? Let me try

14:49

this, So let me try to and it becomes this compelling

14:51

and I can't go to bed until I get this thing done.

14:53

And we've all had that feeling. And

14:56

it's interesting when you look at the research on

14:58

games. It's basically a game work

15:00

that is superimposed, you know, upon

15:03

different situations because games

15:05

can be very difficult, very frustrating. You know,

15:08

your taxes are the same way, but you know doing

15:10

taxes is awful and video games are fun. Why

15:12

is this, Well, it's because there are a number of

15:15

elements that games always possessed. They're

15:17

winnable first and foremost by design. We

15:20

do lots of things and we don't know if

15:23

we actually can achieve this. You know,

15:25

games, you know, if you've purchased a

15:27

video game, there is a way to win,

15:30

so somebody can do that, and that gives us an

15:32

optimistic, you know, feeling towards spending

15:34

the time and completing it. Past that, games

15:36

always have novelty. You know, there's a first level and

15:38

the second level, and there's new enemies and there

15:40

might be you know, new weapons or whatever

15:42

you're using in the game. That keeps it fresh.

15:44

It's not the same thing over and over and over and over and over

15:46

and over again. And past that, games

15:49

have goals, you know, where you have to achieve

15:51

this, you have to do that, and

15:53

having goals focuses your attention allows

15:56

you to get into more of a flow state. And that's what video

15:58

games are pretty much designed to do, is put you

16:00

into a flow state and pass that. Games

16:03

provide instantaneous, you know, easily

16:05

understandable feedback. You did well, you

16:08

didn't do well, you got a point, you lost a

16:10

point. It's very quick, you know, very

16:12

quick versus It's like you think about your job.

16:15

Um, you know, most people get an annual review

16:17

that is not very fast, very good

16:19

feedback as to what they're doing wrong. And

16:22

if people think back to their first few

16:24

months on the job, you probably weren't

16:27

you know board because you know

16:29

you you want to you see other people who are doing well

16:31

at this job. Okay, it's winnable there,

16:33

it's novel you you've never been at this place,

16:35

this company doing this thing before. You have

16:38

goals. People are they're telling you what what they

16:40

want you to do, and you're getting feedback

16:42

because at first you're probably screwing a bunch of stuff up

16:44

or not doing it as well as everyone else

16:46

and you and you need to learn. But the

16:49

problem is with most jobs is that we see

16:51

that very quickly. You know, those things

16:53

fade out. You know, you're

16:55

doing the same things over and over again. The novelty

16:57

has gone, the goals might be unclear. Your own

17:00

of getting feedback annually, and you

17:02

start to look around. You're not getting promoted

17:04

and you're wondering if this game really is winnable. So

17:06

you know, there are certain things that if

17:08

we try and take you know,

17:10

those elements and apply them to

17:13

deliberately to a lot of the activities

17:16

which we find frustrating, are difficult, you

17:18

know, winnable, novelty, goals, feedback.

17:20

If we try and apply those specifically

17:23

to a lot of tasks that are difficult, we can

17:25

actually make them more enjoyable and increase

17:27

our level of persistence and grit. Yeah. I've

17:29

found there's a music program out

17:31

there called Musician and

17:33

it's that doesn't sound right, but anyway,

17:37

it's a game that you can play on your iPhone,

17:39

but you're using a real guitar. It is really

17:41

teaching you to play the guitar, but

17:43

it has exactly the things you're describing.

17:46

The feedback is literally instant

17:48

It tells you whether you played that note right

17:50

or not. And I find that

17:52

I can practice so much longer

17:55

with that. I just get lost in it in the

17:57

same way that I don't get lost in

18:00

playing the guitar. I think it's because it, like

18:02

you said, it's I don't know if it's winnable, but you're

18:05

always making progress, you're always changing,

18:07

and the feedback is instantaneous, and I

18:10

have found it to be an amazing way to continue

18:13

to practice playing the guitar. All

18:15

it is is making a game out of it. Well, I

18:17

mean, Teresa Mobili's research at Harvard

18:19

show that the single most motivating thing

18:22

is a feeling of progress and meaningful work

18:25

is when people feel like, you know, I moved

18:27

the needle forward. You know today

18:29

I got closer to my goal. I'm

18:31

making progress in something that matters. That's

18:34

what produces, you know, the greatest amount of

18:36

motivation. And you

18:38

know, unfortunately many situations, you know, that's

18:41

what's lacking, is you know, the goal might

18:43

be unclear, or we just might

18:45

not be getting you know, of getting any feedback

18:47

at all. And so it's it's interesting to me

18:49

that you know, as you're describing, you know, playing the guitar,

18:52

you have the general amount of feedback. You can listen

18:54

to what you're playing and get that, but to

18:56

have that really crystallized and immediate,

18:59

you know, that provides that

19:02

much more motivation for you to want to keep playing

19:04

that game as opposed as opposed to just

19:06

normally playing the guitar. I think the other thing that

19:08

is so helpful is it advances me at a

19:10

very slow skill level. I've

19:12

heard about flow is you know, getting to flow

19:14

one of the things is just the right amount of

19:16

challenge level. And I find like when

19:18

I'm practicing guitar, otherwise

19:21

I I either undershoot or overshoot that

19:23

mark a lot. Either I'm not pushing myself at

19:25

all, or I've just gone to a place

19:27

where I'm like I can't do that, and this game

19:29

just sort of slowly brings me along

19:31

in a way that is really useful. Yeah,

19:34

when you look at it was ma Hailey chick

19:36

Semi I who did most of the research on Flow,

19:38

and that's exactly what he found, which is it's

19:41

operating in this bound where

19:43

you know, if there's two little challenge, you get

19:45

bored. If there's too much challenge,

19:47

you're not doing well and you get frustrated and

19:49

you want to quit. And so

19:52

you know you need to stay optimally

19:54

to be in flow. You want to be at that just that

19:56

right level of challenge where your skills

19:59

are being taxed, but not to the point where

20:01

it feels futile. But the important

20:03

thing, and this is what video games do so

20:06

well that that life doesn't always

20:08

do, is that as you as

20:10

your skills progress, the challenge needs

20:12

to needs to progress. And

20:15

that's something that that very often many

20:18

jobs are lacking. Is that with time

20:20

your ability to do the job improves

20:23

the challenges, don't we become bored,

20:25

listless, and and all of a

20:27

sudden, you know, the vibrancy, the interest,

20:30

the motivation in doing jobs

20:32

starts to wane. Hey,

21:06

everyone, before you hit that thirty second forward

21:08

button, a quick discussion. A

21:10

long time ago, I went through a very difficult

21:12

period and the book When Things

21:15

Fall Apart by Pemma Children was so

21:17

important to me during that period that to

21:19

this day I still give that book

21:21

to people when they're going through a difficult time.

21:23

I've heard from a lot of you that this show has been

21:25

a big help as you've gone through difficult times.

21:28

And a way for you to give this show

21:31

to other people who are going through difficult times

21:33

is to be a supporter. You can go to one

21:35

you feed dot net slash support

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and make a monthly contribution two dollars,

21:40

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21:52

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So go to one new feed dot net

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slash support now and make

22:09

a contribution and you are able to keep

22:11

the show for yourself and as a

22:13

gift to other people. Thanks so much,

22:15

as always for your support. And here's

22:17

the rest of the interview with Eric Barker.

22:20

You talk about the idea that a lot of us, when we're

22:22

bored at work, what we need is to re engage

22:25

at work. Our our default strategy is to

22:27

pull back, try and do less, not

22:29

be as involved, but that the way

22:32

through that is to is to get more

22:34

involved and more into it.

22:36

And I found that to be so true for me.

22:38

The difference between me resisting doing

22:41

something and kind of figuring out how I

22:43

can get around it versus diving in is night

22:45

and day for me on the exact same

22:47

job. Very often. You know, it's

22:51

because because the instructions were often

22:53

given, or the channel or the difficulties were presented

22:56

with you know, don't always have that

22:58

proper level. So we can

23:00

work to reframe, you know, the goals

23:03

to provide that proper level of challenge

23:05

or to change the goals altogether. Where

23:08

if you have to do a power point

23:10

presentation, you know, it might be

23:12

something you've done a thousand times, but if

23:14

you challenge yourself that, hey,

23:17

you know what, I want to make this presentation much

23:19

more visual. How few words can

23:21

I use? Can I use more images

23:23

that really get my point across? Or or

23:25

get the emotional valence you know across?

23:28

Um? You know, I I want to do this in a way

23:30

that's going to be like X instead of why where

23:33

all of a sudden you start framing it and making

23:35

it more challenging, challenging in a way

23:37

that's interesting to you. And now all of a sudden you

23:39

can achieve the goals that your job has

23:42

put ahead of you, and you can make it more

23:44

interesting and challenging to yourself

23:46

by again adding your own

23:49

set of goals you know, to it. And

23:52

this is something that's that's not that hard

23:54

to do, and most people have some level

23:56

of latitude. Like I said, to focus on improving

23:59

your performance versus just achieving

24:01

the completion of the of the presentation

24:04

adds a level of challenge that can make it interesting

24:06

and motivating. Instead of the four

24:09

hundred presentation that you've done

24:11

like this, yep. And I always find there's room

24:13

even if the job itself

24:16

doesn't provide that that I can find

24:18

it in the people I'm around

24:20

and seeing if I can like making

24:22

a challenge out of can I make people smile

24:24

more? Or can I can I make somebody's

24:27

day better? Or I mean, there's lots of different

24:29

ways to give ourselves

24:31

a place to engage deeper versus withdrawal.

24:34

Yeah, and withdrawal is the path

24:36

to burn out because what the research shows is

24:38

that is that burnout isn't merely an issue

24:40

of too much. Because you know, when

24:42

you work too hard too long, Hey, you

24:45

take a break, Okay, you're fine.

24:47

When you easily recover from working

24:49

too hard, that's not true burnout. True burnout,

24:52

it turns out, is actually the flip

24:54

side of grit. It's when you start

24:56

to feel, you know, pessimistic

24:59

about your job. You start to feel like

25:01

I'm not getting anywhere, this isn't doing

25:03

anything, and basically you start to withdraw.

25:06

You do a worse job, you know, so of course

25:08

what do you get worse feedback, worse performance,

25:11

which only increases the feeling of futility,

25:14

and then that produces a persistently

25:16

negative attitude towards the job,

25:19

towards being there, and and that's

25:21

what creates true burnout, where

25:23

people just don't even want to

25:25

be there and think there's no point to it, you know. I

25:27

mean, obviously vacations are good. Short

25:30

term taking breaks is good. But when

25:32

we just completely disengage and don't

25:34

care anymore, that's really difficult

25:36

because that doesn't actually make us feel better in

25:38

the long term. That leads to burnout as opposed

25:41

to re engaging, finding a new

25:43

way to to perceive it, to reframe the

25:45

work and make it interesting, you

25:47

know, that's the path towards reinvigorating

25:49

yourself. Yeah, it's interesting because I do

25:51

this show and I also do some

25:53

coaching associated with it in different things, and that's

25:55

what I would like to be doing full time

25:57

at some juncture, but I'm not there yet, So I have other

26:00

things that I do work wise,

26:02

and I have found that when I am

26:05

resenting those things and I am trying

26:07

to get by with the minimum, I am

26:09

just miserable. But if I just go ahead

26:11

and engage in it and really give it

26:13

my all, when I'm there, all of a sudden, I have

26:15

more energy in general even

26:17

to pursue the things that are outside of that. And it's

26:20

sort of counterintuitive to me, but it's

26:22

proven to be true. Yeah,

26:24

I think it comes back to to that,

26:27

to that research. Like I said, treesa mobilie, it's progress

26:29

in meaningful work. And so you know, there's

26:31

two questions there to ask yourself. Are you doing

26:33

work that's that's meaningful or you're just

26:35

doing busy work? And then are you

26:37

moving the needle forward? Which which

26:39

means you have to know what's what's forward,

26:42

what's the goal? And am I getting closer

26:44

to it? And in Dan Pink's great book Drive,

26:47

he talks about you know three qualities that

26:49

that leads to motivation, which is autonomy,

26:51

mastery, and purpose. And that is

26:53

number one. Do we have autonomy? Do we have the freedom

26:56

to make some decisions where we feel like we're in

26:58

control and we we actually

27:00

what we do matters? Once again

27:02

that avoiding the feeling of futility. I

27:05

have autonomy, I make a difference. Second

27:07

is mastery and that's that do I feel like I'm

27:09

getting better? Do I feel like I'm improving? And

27:11

third is purpose Again that meaningful

27:13

issue. Do I feel like this is actually providing

27:15

some value, this is actually having an impact

27:18

on the world. When you combine those

27:20

two, you just see that none

27:22

of these elements are withdraw do

27:24

less procrastinate.

27:26

You know, they're all forward looking,

27:29

um and and very often, you know,

27:31

our brains get lazy, our brains get tired.

27:34

But you know there's as the old saying

27:36

goes, it changes as good as a rest. You

27:39

know, when we find a novel problem,

27:41

something that makes us curious, makes

27:43

us want to engage. You know, that becomes

27:46

the secret to really diving down.

27:48

And then things that from a distance look difficult

27:51

close up, they often pull

27:53

us into a flow state. Uh, if

27:55

we give them the chance and we engage them in the

27:57

right way. So all of this really

28:00

leads us to another part of the book that you talk

28:02

about, and is also another subject that

28:05

is probably one of the most talked about

28:07

things on this show, which is that all of

28:09

this stuff is a story. To a certain

28:11

extent, right, we are telling ourselves stories

28:14

about what has meaning and what doesn't. Talk

28:16

to me about telling stories. Stories

28:19

are basically the operating system of the human

28:21

brain. We see our lives as

28:23

you know, a story and across

28:26

the board. This is seen again and again when you look

28:28

at the research on parenting. If a child

28:30

knows the family history

28:32

where they came from and there was this you know story,

28:34

a lineage, UM, kids do much

28:37

better in school, they avoid drugs, they

28:39

do they do better overall. They

28:41

feel like they're part of something, They're part of a story.

28:43

Yeah. John Gottman, who's you know, led the

28:45

research in terms of successful relationships

28:48

and marriages. The best predictor

28:50

of whether a couple will get divorced is simply

28:52

asking them to tell their story. And if it's a

28:54

positive, uplifting story. It might

28:57

involve challenges and difficulties, but

28:59

they were resolve alved, they were overcome. Um,

29:01

if they tell a positive story versus a negative

29:04

story, you know, that's a great predictor that

29:06

the marriage is gonna last. You know, how

29:08

we talk about ourselves. If when you look at

29:10

the research by Tim Wilson at uv A

29:13

on you know what therapists are actually

29:15

doing a big part of therapy is actually

29:17

story editing, where we

29:20

are reinterpreting the story

29:22

of our lives. When you get depressed, you

29:24

feel like I'm a failure. I'm

29:26

never going to do anything. Look at my past,

29:28

I've done this wrong, and this wrong and this wrong. Well,

29:31

you've been alive for decades. There's plenty of examples

29:33

of you doing bad, but there's also plenty examples of you doing

29:35

good. But when you tell your personal

29:38

story, which ones do you choose

29:40

to highlight? And and those the negatives

29:42

are? Did you learn something from them? Was that a period

29:44

of growth? Could that be seen as a positive?

29:47

How we interpret those stories is really

29:49

critical. And you know, work

29:51

by James Penna Baker, University of Texas at

29:53

Austin, he showed that you know if when by

29:55

just simply sitting down for twenty minutes a

29:57

day for four days, you know, and eating

30:00

about difficult you know, a tragic

30:03

event or heartbreak or

30:05

or some kind of difficult issue we're struggling

30:08

with. When people have to write, because

30:10

when we ruminate, that's bad, that leads to depression.

30:13

But we write, we have to structure our thoughts and

30:15

typically what happens we structure them into a

30:17

story. And merely by taking that time

30:19

to structure it out to make sense of

30:21

it, you know, which is what writing requires,

30:24

people often feel much much

30:26

better and they're able to get

30:29

past difficult things again and again. You

30:31

see that the story we tell ourselves,

30:34

you know, is critical in terms

30:36

of whether we persist, how

30:38

we feel and the person that we are

30:41

and the person we become. Yeah, and I love what

30:43

you said there that in our lives there are good

30:45

and there are bad things, because I don't think it's

30:47

a matter of like making up things that aren't true,

30:49

right, we don't believe things that aren't true. It's

30:52

really where are we're gonna

30:54

put the focus? Because since we are constructing

30:56

it, why not construct a story that

30:59

is used full You talk about the term cognitive

31:02

reappraisal, it sounds like that that's just

31:04

another way of saying changing our story

31:06

and changing our reference to it. Absolutely,

31:09

I mean, I think I think this very much ties into

31:11

the to the parable behind the name

31:13

of this podcast. I think again, you

31:15

know, it's are you thinking about the good

31:18

wolf for the bad wolf? You know, because we

31:20

have all engaged the bad wolf

31:22

in terms of you know, being angry or

31:24

envious or negative, and we've also all

31:26

had plenty of times where we were good people,

31:28

we were altruistic, we were kind, And when

31:31

we tell the story, are we telling the story

31:33

of the good wolf. Are we're telling the story of the bad

31:35

wolf? Which one do we really see ourselves

31:37

as which one do we perceive to

31:40

be the more accurate depiction of

31:42

who we are? So in that way, I think

31:44

the story you tell yourself is really critical. So those

31:46

are the stories that we tell ourselves. Broadly,

31:49

there's also what's going on

31:51

in our head at any given minute. You say between

31:54

three d a thousand words is what we're

31:56

saying to ourselves every minute, and

31:58

those words can be positive or negative.

32:01

One of the things I thought was really interesting in the book

32:03

was talking about Navy seals and

32:05

the training and how high the dropout rate

32:07

is, but that people who learned to speak themselves

32:10

um positively. That changed dramatically.

32:13

Basically, after nine eleven, the

32:15

military needed more lead operators

32:17

and obviously the training is very

32:19

difficult, the vetting process is very difficult.

32:21

So they couldn't lower standards because then you

32:24

they wouldn't be a lead anymore. Uh So

32:26

they were trying to figure out, how can we help

32:28

more people qualify in a way that's that's

32:31

not lowering their standards. So the Navy

32:33

did something that they had never really done before and

32:35

asked, what are the things that

32:37

helps help us be gritty and help us persist.

32:40

And they came up with four than the number

32:42

one was was positive self talk,

32:45

you know, where we have that voice

32:47

in our head is telling us,

32:49

you know, positive things again not

32:51

not necessarily delusional. And

32:54

uh, and we're not talking about the secret here where

32:56

just because you wish it, the reality

32:58

is going to warp and change. No, but

33:01

having a positive voice in your head

33:03

because what you see across the board, even including

33:06

research in physiology, your brain

33:08

quits much quicker than your muscles

33:10

do. When we look at the levels of glycogen, that's

33:12

the sugar that your your muscles actually

33:15

used to power themselves. Uh.

33:17

When people say I can't run any

33:19

further or I can't lift any more weights,

33:21

when they actually check the muscle,

33:23

they often find that the glycogen is

33:25

far from depleted. You know, the muscles

33:28

are not at their breaking point. The brain

33:30

acts as a governor, you know, in many ways,

33:32

because the brain doesn't want you to get hurt, so

33:34

it quits long before your body

33:37

does. But when we have this positive

33:39

self talk, that you can move forward. And that also

33:42

ties into I talked about in the book the idea

33:44

of self compassion when we are compassionate

33:46

with ourselves, when the voice in our head is

33:48

warm and soothing and accepting, rather

33:51

than you know, getting get we

33:53

get angry with ourselves, We punish ourselves,

33:55

we beat ourselves up. Um, you know, we

33:57

get much better results from when it's positive,

34:00

soothing and supportive than when we

34:02

we get angry with ourselves. Yeah, the actual

34:04

line you have in the book is between

34:07

saying things to ourselves like I can do

34:09

it or oh god, I can't take

34:11

this anymore. And that hits home so

34:14

much. That distinction in my mind when

34:16

I'm pushing myself, like what is it I'm saying, and as

34:18

soon as it starts to get into I can't take

34:21

this anymore is when I

34:23

start to become very unhappy. And it doesn't

34:25

have to happen just an exercise. I will notice

34:28

that kind of come up just as a as

34:30

an underlying sort of repetitive

34:32

voice that's going on, whether it's I can't take

34:35

this anymore or this is terrible or and

34:37

when I can catch it, it's so easy for me to sort

34:39

of reframe that and go, oh wait a second, No, that's

34:41

not that's not the case at all, Like, yes,

34:44

I you know, I can do this. It's not as nearly as

34:46

bad as what this almost unconscious

34:48

voice is saying. Yeah. And I mean that ties

34:50

into a lot of the uh, the what

34:53

comes the working mindfulness

34:55

which originally comes to us from Buddhism,

34:57

but you know has now uh you know, if

35:00

it's been scientifically validated in terms of mindfulness,

35:02

where that voice, you

35:05

know doesn't have to be us. You know, in

35:07

the same way that you know, our body does

35:09

things. Our brain produces thoughts.

35:11

You know, if you if you broke your arm, you

35:14

would not say I am broken. You would

35:16

say your arm is broken. Well, your brain produces

35:18

thoughts. Sometimes those thoughts are crazy. Sometimes

35:20

we don't listen to them. Sometimes they're silly. Yet

35:23

all too often, you know, our brain

35:25

produces these thoughts and we immediately identify

35:28

with them, you know. And when

35:30

I when I interviewed Joseph Goldstein,

35:32

one of the one of the leading leading

35:35

voices in terms of mindfulness, you

35:37

know, he said, the first step very often is

35:40

listening to that voice in a distance sort

35:43

of objective way, and then asking is

35:45

this useful? Because our brain

35:47

produces all these crazy thoughts, and we dismiss

35:49

many of them. But sometimes, you know,

35:51

we listen to it and we we don't need to

35:54

that that voice isn't us, that is our

35:56

brain. Your arm is broken, you're not broken.

35:58

Your brain produces thoughts, they are not necessarily

36:01

you. So we we don't need to

36:04

take all of those thoughts as seriously,

36:06

We don't need to identify with them

36:08

as us. We can say, oh,

36:11

hey, that's my brain being crazy again, you

36:13

know, and to take a step back

36:15

and listen to that voice, you know

36:18

as not us and ask

36:20

is this useful? Is this something I

36:23

want to move forward with? And putting

36:25

a little gap in there where we

36:27

take a second and rather than being reactive

36:29

to whatever thought occurs to us, we

36:31

choose to respond to respond

36:34

thoughtfully as opposed to blindly reacting.

36:37

Very often we make better choices,

36:39

you know, that that do represent who

36:42

we want to be again, much

36:44

like the podcast, you know, taking

36:46

that pause, do I want to feed the bad

36:48

wolf or the good wolf? For

37:25

me, I don't think there's been anything that has

37:28

more contributed to the quality of my

37:30

life. And I used to be an addict, and so I've

37:32

come a long way, and I think probably the biggest

37:35

if I hadn't boil it down to one thing,

37:38

was that recognition like, oh, I

37:40

don't have to believe those thoughts. I can

37:42

step away from them, I can notice

37:44

them. And and for me that was such

37:46

a big unlock, because I can only

37:48

imagine now thinking back, what a mess

37:51

my head must have been. That's something we really

37:53

need to think about, because we

37:56

already have that perspective

37:58

in our vocabulary when we're

38:00

drunk. You know, we don't take

38:02

everything we do or say seriously.

38:05

When we're angry, will say

38:07

when you're hungry, you know, you act differently.

38:10

You might have a very short temper, you

38:12

haven't got enough sleep. You know, I'm so sorry.

38:14

I didn't mean to snap at you. I really was tossing

38:16

and turning last night. We understand that

38:19

there are different states were in that

38:21

cause us to to act quote

38:24

unquote, and I wasn't myself, you

38:26

know. So we we have this perspective,

38:29

and we we pull it out again with drunkenness,

38:32

with tiredness, with anger. You know, we

38:34

do have the ability to say I did that, but

38:36

that wasn't me. And we

38:38

need to actually broaden that, you

38:40

know, somewhat and say that there are many thoughts

38:42

going through our head. We don't need to identify

38:45

with all of them. We can pick and choose,

38:47

and when we take the time to do that, we

38:50

often make much better choices. I

38:52

totally agree. I want to change directions

38:54

back to we were talking about withdrawal, and one

38:57

of the things you talk about is says research shows

38:59

we don't off and choose to do what really

39:01

makes us happy. We choose what's

39:03

easy. And I'm not going to choose

39:05

to take on the challenge of trying to say his name,

39:07

which you did earlier, the guy who wrote flow. I'll

39:10

let you do that again because that's braver

39:12

than I am. But it's his research

39:14

that we're talking about here. Yeah, Haley Chick,

39:16

send me hi. Uh. He did research,

39:20

uh, you know, showing that

39:22

I believe specifically it was teenagers

39:25

and it was watching TV, socializing,

39:27

or playing sports. And what he

39:29

found was that TV made

39:32

them least happy, socializing

39:34

made them more happy, and playing sports made

39:36

them the happiest. Uh. And when given

39:38

the option, uh, teenagers chose

39:40

in the exact wrong order. They

39:43

were much more likely to pick watching TV,

39:46

uh, you know, slightly less likely to

39:48

specializing again, and far less likely to pick

39:50

sports. And I think we see that across the

39:52

board where you know, very often we

39:55

get tired, we think, oh I can't

39:57

do this, I don't and we we make

40:00

the easy choice. We don't make, you know,

40:02

the good choice, the low long term

40:04

choice. And this is something again

40:06

where kind of like pausing and reflecting.

40:09

Daniel Gilbert did a lot of research at Harvard

40:11

showing this in terms of, you know, we are often very

40:14

poor at remembering

40:17

what made us happy. Now, some people

40:19

would would be quick to reject that out of hand,

40:21

but when you look at the research

40:24

that they've done in terms of how

40:26

bad are Monday's really, how

40:28

great are Friday's really? How

40:31

good do you really feel on your book? And it

40:33

turns out that Mondays aren't that bad,

40:35

and you know, and that that the people don't

40:37

actually feel like that, and we're

40:39

quick to forget this and we do it all the time.

40:42

I mean, where you know, when you feel really

40:44

depressed, you know, after you know,

40:46

lose a job, the end of a relationship,

40:49

what's the natural feel Oh my god,

40:51

the sadness is never going to end. These

40:53

kind of things happen all the time, and yet

40:56

every time it's it's never gonna end. I'm gonna

40:58

feel this way forever. And we're

41:00

very bad often at remembering

41:03

what made us really unhappy

41:05

and what made us, you know, very happy.

41:08

And if we actually take the time to

41:11

write down, to record what

41:13

makes us extremely happy, what makes

41:15

us less happy and then and then follow

41:18

the script as opposed to trusting

41:21

are very fallible memories, um,

41:23

we can actually end up living much happier

41:25

lives making better choices. Yeah, you

41:27

say, without a plan, we do what's passive

41:29

and easy, not what it's really fulfilling. And

41:31

then you go on to talk about another study

41:34

that shows that managing your

41:36

free time is associated with

41:38

the higher quality of life. It's not so much

41:41

about increasing it, but scheduling

41:43

that time in advance. And for me

41:45

that I find that so true. If I wake up on a

41:47

weekend and I know kind of what I'm

41:49

doing through the day, I really enjoy the whole day.

41:51

But if I wake up and I have no idea what I'm doing,

41:54

I tend to fret. You

41:56

know, I don't really know what to do with myself,

41:58

and I feel very aimless. And so having

42:00

to plan and laying it out makes such a difference

42:02

in it. Now it looks like there's you know some

42:05

studies that show that I think we have all

42:07

had days where we're happy to have

42:09

the day off and and what's the first ourselves,

42:11

I'm going to do nothing, and

42:13

and you know you waste you waste the day, and

42:16

then we often feel like that, where did the day go? You

42:18

know, I haven't really gotten started. I just kind

42:20

of sat around and watched TV, you know, versus

42:23

that that Christmas morning feeling where

42:25

you know, I'm anticipating this, this is great,

42:28

and you know in the research shows that very often,

42:30

UH, anticipation UH provides

42:32

us with more happiness than the actual event,

42:35

does you know, anticipating the

42:37

vacation, you know, you get you're gonna get

42:40

a month or two months to say, oh

42:42

my god, it's gonna be so great, and

42:44

and that that's happiness. You know, there is

42:46

no such thing as fake happiness. If you feel

42:48

good, you feel good. And so to have two

42:50

months of anticipating that vacation,

42:53

that is real joy. That's real happiness. And

42:55

so again, if we take the time,

42:58

I know most people you know have a need or negative

43:00

response to planning their free time. I don't

43:02

want to have to, you know, yes,

43:05

but when we make plans with friends. We

43:07

can look forward to them and we enjoy the company

43:09

of our friends, as opposed to very

43:11

often you sit on the couch, you watch Netflix,

43:14

there's nothing good on, you surf around on the

43:16

internet. I mean, when you look at the research in

43:18

terms of television, you know, actually,

43:20

for the most part, it shows that it's it's actually

43:22

similar to load grade load grade depression.

43:25

You know, it's it's very often we're not watching

43:27

extremely entertaining stuff. It's the desire

43:29

to get away from work, from being

43:32

told what to do, but it doesn't actually bring

43:34

us much joy versus when we make plans

43:36

with friends. You know, not only are

43:38

those you know often much more enjoyable

43:40

than just sitting around aimlessly doing

43:43

nothing, but also we get the opportunity

43:45

to anticipate them and again, very

43:48

often the anticipation is the best part. And

43:50

without a plan it is easy just to default

43:52

to nothing. Well, Eric,

43:55

thanks so much. That was a great conversation.

43:57

I love the book, um so much

43:59

of it is very much in line with the

44:01

things that we talked about on the show. I

44:03

will have links in the show notes to the book where

44:05

people can find you great read. And

44:07

I had a great conversation. Oh thank

44:09

you. I really I really really appreciate you hoping

44:11

me get the word out about barking up Throng Tree. And

44:14

it's it's been great talking to you, all right. Thanks

44:16

bye. If

44:33

what you just heard was helpful to you, please

44:36

consider making a donation to the one you Feed

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