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There has to be emptiness,

0:21

Our fullness isn't very

0:24

exciting. Welcome

0:33

to the one you feed. Throughout time,

0:36

great thinkers have recognized the importance

0:38

of the thoughts we have. Quotes like

0:40

garbage in, garbage out, or you

0:42

are what you think ring true, and

0:45

yet for many of us, our thoughts don't

0:47

strengthen or empower us. We

0:49

tend toward negativity, self pity,

0:52

jealousy, or fear. We see

0:54

what we don't have instead of what we do.

0:57

We think things that hold us back and dampen

0:59

our spirit. It but it's not just about

1:01

thinking. Our actions matter. It

1:04

takes conscious, consistent and creative

1:06

effort to make a life worth living. This

1:09

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

1:11

moving in the right direction, how they

1:13

feed their good wolf. Thanks

1:29

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:32

is Richard Brewer, a globally recognized

1:34

ecumenical teacher bearing witness to the

1:36

universal awakening within Christian mysticism

1:39

and the perennial tradition. He's a Franciscan

1:42

priest of the New Mexico Province and a

1:44

founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation.

1:48

His new book is The Universal Christ,

1:50

How I Forgotten Reality Can Change everything

1:53

we see, hope for and believe.

1:56

Hi, Father Richard, Welcome to the show. We are excited

1:58

to have you on again and we are very happy

2:00

to be here another time at

2:02

your Center for Action and Contemplation

2:05

in Albuquerque. It is lovely out here,

2:07

and we had a lovely service that

2:09

you did this morning that was really nice.

2:12

Yes,

2:14

So we are going to be talking about your book, The

2:17

Universal Christ, How a Forgotten

2:19

Reality can change everything

2:21

we see, hope for, and believe.

2:24

But before we do that, we are going

2:27

to start like we always do, with

2:29

the parable. There's a grandfather

2:31

who's talking with his grandson. He says, in

2:33

life, there are two wolves inside

2:36

of us that are always a battle. One

2:38

is a good wolf, which represents

2:41

things like kindness and bravery

2:43

and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

2:45

which represents things like greed, and

2:48

hatred and fear. And

2:50

the grandson stops and thinks about it for a

2:53

second, and he looks up at his grandfather

2:55

and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?

2:58

And the grandfather says, the one you feed.

3:01

So I'd like to start by asking you what

3:03

that parable means to you in your life

3:05

and in the work that you do. It

3:08

really is a magnificently simple

3:11

parable. Ah.

3:14

And you know you might say,

3:17

oh, yeah, of course, But I

3:19

don't think most of our

3:21

people, uh,

3:23

in Western society have

3:25

have been trained to see it that way. In

3:27

other words, they thought they could

3:30

entertain negativity, resentment,

3:34

uh, even toward themselves and

3:36

they wouldn't have a cost to pay

3:38

for it. We didn't.

3:41

We didn't really emphasize the

3:44

interior life. For all

3:46

the Christianity at least thinks

3:49

that it did, it really didn't.

3:52

And people, as long as they didn't act

3:54

out externally, thought

3:56

they could walk around with that

3:59

bad wolf so called resentments,

4:03

angers, fears, judgments.

4:06

And we see it now in our politics

4:08

and our whole our church, our whole

4:10

country. How the bad

4:12

wolf, if you want to call him that, his

4:16

voice, her voice, whoever it is,

4:18

is being um easily

4:21

heard, too easily heard,

4:24

which means we're we're

4:26

feeding him. Well, yeah,

4:29

yeah, it does seem to be the case

4:31

in a lot of in a lot of situations.

4:34

So let's move into the New book. Um,

4:37

and you use the word

4:40

the universal Christ. And usually

4:42

when we hear Christ, we think Jesus

4:45

Christ. You're talking about

4:47

something different. So

4:49

tell me what is Christ?

4:52

That word for you? What does it imply? What

4:54

does it mean? Well, first of

4:56

all, let me say so people

4:59

don't think I'm taking him down to dead

5:01

end. This is entirely orthodox,

5:05

traditional and scriptural, but

5:07

it was just never emphasized.

5:10

And what happened, in effect was

5:13

Christ became Jesus last

5:15

name, as it were. Whereas

5:17

if you read the New Testament,

5:20

uh, particularly the first chapters

5:23

of Colossians, Ephesians,

5:27

John's Gospel, First Letter

5:29

of John, first Letter of Hebrews,

5:32

they all say very clearly the

5:34

Christ existed from all eternity.

5:37

Now we all know Jesus was born

5:40

two thousand years ago, but

5:42

for convenience sake, it

5:44

it just was not worth making

5:46

that distinction. I'm trying

5:48

to understand why

5:51

that was so true, and

5:53

I can't help but think it has something

5:56

to do. I'm gonna

5:58

say it just to make the point, with things

6:00

like the Hubble telescope

6:04

discovering in our lifetime

6:06

the extent of the universe that

6:09

it's still expanding and

6:11

expanding at a faster pace.

6:15

We're recognizing at a gut

6:17

level, we have to have a God

6:20

as big as all of this, and

6:23

this God can't be limited to planet

6:25

Earth, and Jesus

6:27

can't be limited to a sin that was

6:30

committed by Adam and e between

6:32

the Tigris and Euphrates river. In other

6:34

words, very limited in

6:36

a certain space time, continual,

6:39

and so thus far the book

6:42

has received way more response

6:45

positive response that I'm getting. I'm

6:47

sure there's negative out there, uh

6:49

than I ever expected. And I think

6:51

it's because the mind and

6:54

the accompanying heart is ready

6:56

for it. You know, there's

6:59

there's not I'm not getting

7:01

the hate letters I got on some of

7:03

my past books. It's

7:06

almost a relief, I

7:08

think to some people. Yeah,

7:11

and so what you're talking about when

7:14

with Christ is this idea that

7:17

um an incarnational world

7:20

view, which is basically, you say,

7:22

but God loves things by becoming

7:24

them, God loves things

7:26

by uniting with them, and

7:29

so really what you're talking about is seeing

7:31

Christ in everything you

7:34

know? You know again

7:38

that seems when you first heard, Oh,

7:40

that's oversimplified because

7:44

we haven't emphasized it or

7:46

taught it even is why

7:48

we have the social problems we have today

7:52

and why Europe, at least in my opinion,

7:55

which was once the totally Christian

7:58

continent, isn't just post

8:00

Christian in many ways, it's

8:02

anti Christian. The

8:05

big wars came from the Christian continent.

8:08

In other words, we left Christians

8:10

the freedom to decide

8:13

where the sacred was and

8:15

where the sacred wasn't, and

8:19

we have done it NonStop,

8:23

beginning with anti Semitism

8:25

already incipient, and even

8:27

the New Testament. Then

8:30

we have heretics

8:32

being worthy of being burned at

8:34

the stake. We have women always

8:36

remaining inferior. Every

8:39

century has its chosen person,

8:43

our persons where it doesn't

8:45

have to see the sacred, which

8:48

I'm calling the christ Uh.

8:51

Once you put leave that free

8:54

to the individual ego to decide,

8:57

we now know after two thousand

8:59

years is the results are

9:01

tragic, really tragic.

9:04

And then the earth itself are

9:07

the animals. You know, nothing

9:09

was sacred except my

9:13

group, my Christian

9:15

group, those who

9:18

said it just like me and

9:21

everybody else was worthy of disdain.

9:25

Well, how can Jesus

9:27

possibly be the savior

9:29

of the world or

9:31

the Lord of the universe, as

9:35

John's Gospel begins to think of him

9:38

if he's always just protecting

9:41

a little tribe we

9:43

we largely have. And

9:46

I got to name it as such, tribal

9:48

Christianity today.

9:51

You know, Jesus was used

9:54

as a way to hold my group together, not

9:57

as a way to proclaim the

9:59

divine presence in all things

10:02

now, you know, just to add on the

10:04

most conservative A little document

10:06

that we Catholics grew

10:08

up with in this country was called

10:10

the Baltimore Catechism,

10:12

and Question sixteen of

10:15

the Baltimore Catechists we had to memorize

10:18

question and answer. Sister

10:20

would ask where is God? And we'd

10:22

all say, God is everywhere.

10:26

This is so basic we forget

10:29

how basic it is. And

10:33

then much of the rest of the Catechism

10:36

pretended God well was not

10:39

really everywhere, really

10:42

only in the Catholic Church in our case.

10:44

But then I found out after I

10:46

started moving around the world, every

10:49

other group did the same thing. Yeah,

10:51

yeah, you say that for

10:54

you a mature Christian sees

10:56

Christ in everything and

10:59

everyone else. And

11:01

then you go also say that this incarnational

11:04

view, this seeing Christ in everything,

11:08

is the key to mental and spiritual health

11:11

as well as the basic contentment

11:13

and happiness,

11:16

because if

11:18

the whole thing is beloved, if

11:20

the whole thing is good, as Genesis one

11:23

says five times

11:25

in a row, it was good, it was good, it was good, it

11:27

was good, it was good. It was very good.

11:30

And it's really pernicious

11:34

that with that as the starting

11:36

of the narrative we chose

11:38

to start with the problem Genesis

11:41

three. Uh

11:44

you know why, Well,

11:46

I think man in particular,

11:49

if you'll allow me to say so, tend

11:51

to be problem solvers. If

11:54

you create a problem, I'm

11:56

here to solve it. To believe

11:58

that there was no problem problem to begin

12:01

with, that it's

12:03

all good, it's all the child of

12:05

God, it's all beloved. Now

12:07

let me throw in quickly because

12:09

I know what some of our listeners are thinking.

12:12

Well, he sounds like a pantheist

12:14

to me. Now, my

12:16

opinion is not pantheism. Pantheism

12:20

means God equals all things.

12:23

God and all things are the same.

12:25

There's no distinction between

12:28

creator and creature. The

12:30

authentic belief of Orthodox

12:33

Christianity, although most of us

12:36

were never taught this word is

12:38

pan and theism

12:40

to use the Greek word God

12:43

in all things, God

12:45

revealed through all things. Ever,

12:48

the divine DNA is

12:51

inserted insight of all of reality.

12:53

And let me just add to that, how

12:56

could it not be if

13:00

there's one creator who created all things,

13:03

how could the divine imprint not be in

13:05

a tree and a dog, and

13:07

the sky and the entire universe.

13:10

Well, that really is a

13:13

basis for mental health. You

13:16

live in a world that is

13:20

good, and

13:24

let's say it, that isn't the perception

13:27

of most people today.

13:29

They seem to feel that

13:32

evil is even winning. And

13:34

I can see they're good evidence

13:37

for that. But when we don't

13:39

contrary that with h

13:43

the Gospel, um,

13:46

people are left with a double whammy.

13:48

It seems to me they're intuitive

13:52

observation of how much is going

13:54

wrong. And then well,

13:57

even the Christian Church

14:00

as it's all going to hell in a handbag

14:03

all the recent and it is recent, you

14:06

know, teaching on arm again and apocalypse.

14:09

Now the rapture uh

14:13

left behind the first

14:15

Church would not the early

14:17

church. Let's take the well, really, the first

14:20

thousand years wouldn't have known

14:22

what you were talking about. This

14:25

is a very recent version of

14:27

the Gospel that ends

14:29

with a whimper and not a bang um,

14:33

and yet many Christians

14:36

take that as our narrative. We're

14:38

in trouble when that happens,

14:41

because a little kid growing

14:44

up looking for a vision, a

14:47

positive vision of meaning, direction,

14:50

hope, purpose, won't

14:53

find it there. If you only read

14:55

one chapter in the book, just read

14:57

the one on resurrection, be

15:00

because that is the Christian

15:02

statement about the final

15:04

end of history summarized

15:07

in the body of Jesus. Capitulated

15:10

in the body of Jesus. But Jesus

15:13

is a stand in for everything. Jesus

15:17

Christ is a stand in for

15:19

everything. But again, most

15:21

of us weren't weren't taught to see

15:23

it that way, right, I

15:26

think for most versions

15:28

of Christianity, what's important about

15:30

Jesus is that he died for

15:32

our sins his death, but

15:36

focusing solely on that, we missed his

15:38

whole life. It's true, it

15:41

sounds too oversimplified, but it's

15:43

true. We really didn't

15:45

need his life. His

15:48

sermon on the Mount, his

15:50

humility, his tenderness,

15:52

his compassion all we needed.

15:55

If you'll allow me to say it

15:57

was some warm blood

16:00

at the end of his life inside

16:02

a whole frame of retributive

16:05

justice, which isn't the only

16:07

definition of justice, but I must

16:10

say in history it's been the most

16:12

common one tip for tap quid

16:14

pro quo, this much sin,

16:17

this much atonement, are

16:19

this much retribution? So

16:21

we settled for what I call

16:23

a transactional understanding

16:26

of Jesus, where I believe

16:29

the full meaning of Jesus. And by

16:31

the way, this book will not lessen

16:34

your lover or appreciation for Jesus.

16:37

I would hold at least quite

16:39

the contrary. He gives us

16:41

a transformational understanding

16:44

of history, and his own transformation

16:47

is the pattern of ours. That's

16:51

what I'm trying to say through the whole book. So

17:13

I want to change gears a little bit

17:15

and talk about something

17:18

that you wrote in the book. And

17:21

you were sort of talking about when

17:24

God sort of pulls back or hides

17:27

his face, right, Um,

17:29

But you said, I must be honest with

17:31

you here about my own life. For

17:33

the last ten years, I have had

17:35

little spiritual feeling either

17:38

consolation nor desolation.

17:41

Talk to me about that experience

17:43

and how you

17:45

frame it within your faith and I'd

17:48

also be interested in how you've framed

17:50

what I think might have been depressive episodes

17:53

within your faith, because you talk about Mother Teresa

17:56

had these periods of darkness that people

17:58

said was depression, and you're saying

18:00

that's not really what it was, So tell

18:03

me more about all that. It's very funny

18:05

you'd bring that up, because today has

18:08

been one of those days. I from

18:10

the moment I woke up this morning, I my

18:13

feeling tone was flat line,

18:17

just okay.

18:20

I guess I love God.

18:22

I want to love God. I guess I love

18:24

life. I want to love life

18:27

unless you have days like this, which

18:31

among the Catholic mystics was

18:33

called darkness, or it would be

18:35

comparable to the Buddhist notion

18:37

of emptiness. Only

18:40

when you come to that flat line day

18:43

do you go deeper and draw up on deeper

18:45

resources. I'd be willing

18:48

to bet I'm gonna have

18:50

almost the opposite in the next few days,

18:53

because today I'm drawing upon no. I

18:56

hope it doesn't come through my talk. But no.

19:00

Positive. It doesn't mean

19:02

negative because

19:04

I'm having no positive feelings. It's

19:07

what I call flat line, just okay.

19:10

It is what it is. I

19:12

believe that I don't feel so,

19:15

as so many of the mystics put it,

19:18

the feeling has to be taken away,

19:21

so you choose, So you decide

19:24

to love. I'm sure if

19:26

you're married, you have to do that a

19:28

hundred times in your lifetime with

19:31

your partner a year. You

19:35

you don't every day feel

19:38

it. You have to decide

19:40

for it, choose it, rely upon

19:43

past moments of intimacy or

19:45

communion, and that allows

19:48

you to go I don't think there's any way to go deeper

19:51

except the dance of emptiness

19:53

and fullness. If every

19:55

day that you love Jesus was

19:57

just a gush of emotion,

20:00

and I've had many of those wonderful

20:03

days in my life. You know, there's

20:05

too much payoff

20:08

for the ego. You don't really love Jesus.

20:11

You love the feelings Jesus gives

20:13

you after a while. So

20:15

that's what the saints meant by God

20:18

withdrawing his face. There

20:21

has to be emptiness. Our

20:24

fullness isn't very exciting,

20:26

to put it that way. We don't have

20:28

much understanding of that. Uh,

20:32

no offense. I'm not sure what religious

20:34

tradition you come from. It. The Protestant

20:37

tradition had almost no teaching

20:39

on darkness, almost none. They

20:42

had sin. When I talk

20:44

about darkness, I'm not talking

20:46

about sin very yeah,

20:49

and uh, without that, without

20:52

any good teaching on spiritual darkness,

20:56

you you don't grow

20:59

very deep because

21:01

you think you've lost faith, when

21:03

in fact you're being taught

21:05

faith out much. You're

21:07

being taught love, and you're being

21:09

taught hope. The Three Biggies.

21:12

Yeah, that makes me think of a couple of

21:14

things. One of the lines that I

21:17

may have used on this show more than any

21:19

other is this idea that sometimes

21:21

you can't think your way into right action.

21:23

You have to act your way into right thinking. It's

21:26

one of our principles. Yeah, and so that's

21:28

you know, that's kind of what you're You know,

21:30

what you're talking about is very good.

21:32

But help me understand. How

21:34

do you delineate or is it not important to

21:36

delineate this darkness, this spiritual

21:39

darkness, from what we would call depression.

21:41

It's a very worthy question. I've

21:44

alluded to it in several of my books.

21:48

I think it comes down to, uh,

21:52

a kind of underlying

21:55

positivity that

21:57

you can still do

22:00

what you have to do, treat

22:02

people with love and respect, willingly

22:07

put one foot in front of the other. It's

22:09

just what's withdrawn is the

22:12

enjoyment. The feeling

22:14

of joy

22:17

isn't there. It's it's

22:20

constantly choice, choice,

22:22

choice, whereas true depression.

22:26

Uh. I'm

22:29

told at least that you

22:31

don't have those qualities that you

22:33

really find it hard to love, hard

22:36

to hope. You know you're being

22:39

held like this morning. Uh.

22:41

I would have to say I've

22:44

prayed more. I

22:47

was in the car a couple of times, had

22:49

to run home for something. Uh.

22:53

And most of my movements there's

22:55

been a constant prayer,

23:01

God, You're gonna help me. I don't know why I'm

23:03

doing today now.

23:05

I don't know if i'd offer those prayers if

23:08

I was feeling it. Do you understand?

23:11

So it is? It isn't a loss

23:13

of faith in God. It's

23:16

a loss of feeling faith

23:18

in God. Yeah. Antedonia

23:21

right, which is the word that

23:23

people will use for lack

23:25

of enjoyment and things. You normally get a

23:27

lot of enjoyment. And this question is

23:29

real near and dear to me because I have

23:32

dealt with depression

23:34

most of my adult life, and I've had

23:36

a little bit of a flare up recently.

23:39

But one of the things that I'm always sort of

23:41

trying to process through for myself.

23:45

Is is this depression?

23:48

Is this what you're referring to is sort of

23:50

a spiritual darkness?

23:54

Is this, um

23:57

just my temperament to a certain degree,

23:59

right, like a melancholy sort

24:01

of sure. And so just

24:04

I'm always interested when I read that in your

24:06

book,

24:09

and you're making some very good

24:11

distinctions, because that has

24:13

to be usually at

24:16

least partially true that

24:18

some personalities are more

24:20

inclined to a a soberness.

24:24

Let's just call it that. Yeah. Uh,

24:27

in me, I've always been rather

24:30

serious. Uh

24:32

So, maybe I'm inclined to it

24:34

more. But uh

24:37

I always felt a basic underlying

24:39

happiness. But but I'm not

24:43

a giddy or joke telling

24:45

person. I wished

24:47

I were. I love our director

24:49

and some of the staff here because they

24:51

are and they balanced me out.

24:54

I need people like that around me. Thanks

24:57

for being so vulnerable, because

24:59

you're ma can for one third

25:01

the human race at least

25:04

and probably two thirds of our listeners. Yeah.

25:08

So one of the other things that you talk about

25:10

is that the experience of God,

25:13

and we we referenced it a little bit seeing Christ

25:15

and everything. You say that anything

25:17

that draws you out of yourself in a

25:20

positive way for all

25:22

practical purposes, is operating

25:24

as God for you at that moment. God

25:27

experience always expands your

25:29

scene and never constricts it.

25:32

You know what to read? That's that's

25:34

a jam packed line and

25:37

every word is important. That

25:41

see. The the boundaried

25:44

self, the protected

25:46

ego, or if you just want to call it, the ego

25:49

doesn't know how to let the divine flow

25:52

of grace, the trinitarian

25:54

love that moves the

25:56

whole universe is the sap

25:59

of the universe. It doesn't

26:01

know how to let that flow. It damns

26:04

it up inside of you. And

26:06

there have to be and God

26:09

gives them constantly once you learn how

26:11

to see. Since I've been talking

26:13

to you, I'm looking out the window and

26:15

noticing that the cherries are already

26:17

coming out. They're the real tiny

26:20

but on our little cherry tree out here. I don't

26:22

know if you can see it. And that already

26:25

made me happy. No, it

26:27

takes a little to make you happy. And

26:31

whatever is facilitating that

26:34

flow, uh,

26:36

you know, stopping the damned

26:38

up you can almost understand. Damn.

26:41

Either way, Um is

26:44

operating as Christ and

26:48

that's not being cutesy.

26:51

Uh. If you don't find that,

26:53

you really do stay

26:55

inside of yourself. I

26:58

think in in so many any movies

27:00

and literature, the image

27:03

of the Christian is often an anal

27:05

retentive person

27:08

who can't laugh. Now that isn't

27:10

always true by any means, but

27:12

I think we've projected that storyline

27:16

that we aren't people who are inside the

27:18

flow of love and life

27:20

and joy, but we're

27:23

primarily keeping

27:25

the what we call the subject object

27:27

split. I'm over here as

27:30

a subject. That cherry tree is

27:33

an object for my objectification.

27:36

It's not something I can momentarily

27:39

merge with and

27:41

love and appreciate and

27:44

overcome the split. So I'm knowing

27:46

it subject to subject, delight

27:49

to delight like nos

27:51

like Once you can allow

27:54

yourself to know things in that way,

27:56

you're never far from contentment.

28:00

I'm not even gonna call it always, you

28:03

know, a leap of joy, but

28:06

something even better, a deep

28:09

satisfaction that life

28:11

is okay. Why is God

28:13

allowing those cherries

28:15

to emerge again with

28:18

no help from us? We just let

28:21

it grow every year. Uh,

28:25

It's so wonderful that unless

28:28

you see it at that level, you

28:30

don't draw life. It doesn't draw a

28:32

life out of you. Let me put it that way, right

28:35

right, Yeah, you have a beautiful couple of

28:37

lines. You say. God seems to have chosen

28:40

to manifest the invisible

28:42

in what we call the visible, so

28:44

that all things visible are the revelation

28:47

of And I love this phrase. God's endlessly

28:50

diffusive spiritual energy.

28:53

Once a person recognizes that, it

28:55

is hard to ever be lonely in this

28:57

world again. M hm, see

29:00

if if the whole universe is

29:03

subject to subject and like,

29:06

and let me describe what I mean by that. I'm

29:08

not just talking to

29:10

it, but I'm giving

29:12

it voice and letting

29:15

it be a vow, as

29:17

Martin Bouber would put it. I'm sure you're familiar

29:20

with his eye vow relationship.

29:22

But I let it, as it were, talk

29:25

back to me and

29:27

tell me about life, tell

29:30

me about God, a lovely

29:33

blooming tree. You're

29:35

connected in such

29:38

a way that you can never be lonely

29:40

again. There's there's

29:42

activity, there's agency,

29:45

there's mutuality, there's

29:47

giving and receiving. That's

29:49

the only way a hermit can

29:51

live alone for forty days. Whenever

29:54

you see the re emergence of

29:56

hermits and you we can go

29:59

through Lee Catholic history

30:01

and see the periods where they just multiply.

30:04

You've always got a rebirth of

30:07

the contemplative mind, where

30:09

there's deep contentment inside

30:12

of what's right in front

30:15

of you, a tree, an

30:17

animal. Everything gives

30:20

you satisfaction, and everything

30:22

gives you connection. When

30:25

you live in a separate universe

30:28

where that's just a tree,

30:31

that's just a dog for

30:33

my consumption or from

30:35

my profit, when you're constantly

30:38

cutting the link, of course, you're

30:40

going to be lonely. Really, it's

30:42

that simple. Of course, you're going to be lonely.

30:45

And I think this is why we have so much

30:47

sexual abuse, because

30:50

I mean sex, false sex in

30:52

particulars just looking for connection

30:55

because I don't have it. Uh,

30:59

someone who's universe personally connected,

31:01

does not need to use

31:03

or objectify other people,

31:06

much less hurt them

31:08

in any way. So it's all

31:10

one. Um.

31:13

So you know, it's strange that we call

31:16

the active intercourse

31:18

making love. I

31:21

don't know statistically how

31:23

often it is making love or

31:26

how often it's making lust. And

31:30

making lust leaves you disconnected

31:33

if you understand you're still

31:35

over here and she or he

31:37

is over there, doesn't satisfy

31:40

the soul at all, but when

31:42

you discovered the other as

31:44

a fellow thou Martin

31:47

Boober, the Jewish philosopher, he said,

31:49

there's either the eye vow relationship

31:53

or everything descends into the

31:55

eye. It it's

31:57

utilitarian, it's

32:00

uh mercantile,

32:03

but it's not meaningful. I

32:25

was on a retreat recently with a spiritual

32:27

teacher and he said something that really struck

32:29

me, and it goes back to kind of what we were talking about

32:32

about acting your way into right thinking.

32:34

He said, you know, you're gonna have these spiritual experiences,

32:38

and that experience is going to go, but

32:40

the important thing is to devote yourself

32:43

to what little bit of it remains

32:46

perfect. So

32:48

yeah, so it's this, okay,

32:50

that experience is gone, but there's

32:53

there's an underlying truth there that I

32:56

saw, that you see, that people see,

32:59

and how do you devote yourself to that devote

33:01

That's a beautiful choice

33:03

of words. And again, why

33:05

you can't get tied to the feeling is

33:08

the feeling goes, and

33:11

it does in all of us, just

33:13

like the honeymoon does. But

33:15

there was something true there

33:17

in the honeymoon experience, which

33:20

is simply an experience of radical

33:22

unity and that's what we

33:25

were created for, that's what we

33:27

live for. But then we

33:29

can't experience them

33:31

naturally easily. We

33:34

try to manufacture them by

33:37

what I'm gonna call high intensity

33:40

events rock

33:43

rock concerts. I'm not saying rock concerts

33:45

are wrong, but

33:48

don't spend too much time there

33:50

are. What you do is you up your

33:54

your anti of expectation. I

33:57

need loud noise,

33:59

I need lights to an

34:01

unbelievable level, and

34:04

now I'll be excited. I mean, you

34:06

can't help. But when you watch TV,

34:09

what are they going to do next to

34:11

engage my imagination? How

34:14

much light do we need on? What's

34:17

the show idol? American

34:20

Idol? You know? I mean, it is

34:22

fascinating. It isn't many

34:24

ways beautiful, but

34:26

it's what the early

34:28

desert fathers would have called, you

34:31

know, the lust of the eyes. And

34:33

they're not talking about naked

34:36

women. They're talking about too much visual

34:39

excitement, which makes

34:41

you think I need that to be happy.

34:43

No, you really don't need that to be happy.

34:46

You need that to be diverted or distracted.

34:49

Because after American

34:52

Idol, I'm just picking on them. It's a wonderful

34:54

show. I'm sure that

34:58

you really won't be any happy, You really

35:00

won't. Yeah,

35:03

distraction does not

35:05

make you happy. It has

35:07

to touch the depths. Now,

35:10

some of the beautiful stories of people

35:13

who rose from nothing to

35:15

becoming a great singer, maybe

35:17

that can touch the soul. But

35:19

lights and loud noise of

35:22

themselves will always

35:25

fail to do it. Or firework

35:27

shows, you know with scare

35:29

dogs. I know, like

35:32

dogs never liked Fourth

35:34

of July, So

35:36

yeah, I think that's an that's a really interesting

35:38

point. And you talked about this idea of anything

35:41

that draws us out of ourselves, right, and

35:43

you use the that God uses

35:45

three things in particular, goodness,

35:48

truth, and beauty. And it's interesting to

35:50

me because when I watch TV there

35:52

are certain shows and

35:54

what I've realized is that I

35:56

cry very easily good

35:59

And what I what I realized is what

36:02

usually gets me is scenes

36:04

of deep goodness. Yeah

36:07

right, there's like there's a kindness between

36:10

two people that you're tuitous kindness.

36:12

Yeah, it just it just brings it out. And

36:15

the same spiritual teacher I was talking about

36:17

in his book recently said, you know, not tears

36:19

of joy, not tears of sadness, tears of depth,

36:23

And that really hit me. Because I've never been

36:25

able to put words on what it is.

36:27

What it is? Wow, I totally

36:30

agree with that. I always wish I

36:32

could cry more easily. The

36:34

moments that it does happen

36:36

most easily for me. And I

36:38

don't know why I've talked about this

36:41

to therapists. Is moments

36:43

of reunion someone

36:46

who hasn't seen their mother for twenty

36:48

years or anything. Oh,

36:50

I just saw like a baby. I

36:52

was never abandoned or you

36:54

know, I h the usual psychological

36:58

explanations don't make sense to me.

37:01

But to see two people who

37:03

have never known one another just

37:06

clutch at one another and weep. I weep

37:08

too. Yeah, it's beautiful. It

37:10

is that. That's what people

37:14

parting is another and people

37:16

who are you know, And we were just talking

37:19

about um the book

37:21

Death of an Archbishop by WILLI Catherine,

37:23

which takes place out here, and one of the beautiful

37:25

parts of that book is, uh, Father

37:28

la Tour, I think he would say, and Father

37:30

Valiant and the love between those two

37:32

and how Father la Tour would just how

37:35

much he missed his friend when

37:37

he went out to do the mission work. It's just a beautiful

37:39

part of that book. You know, it would kind of get me because

37:41

you could feel him his friend would leave, and

37:43

it was this part of him that went with him.

37:46

Oh, that says you

37:48

are capable of the same thing. I

37:51

have to say, of course, it's been twenty

37:53

five years since I read Death

37:55

Comes for the Archbishop. I remember it

37:57

being a beautiful book about

37:59

him Exico, but I didn't remember

38:02

that friendship. You must be there

38:04

inside. That's great. Yeah, it's

38:06

a it's a beautiful book. So you

38:09

mentioned the cherry trees outside the window

38:11

a minute ago, and but

38:13

in your book you also mentioned this glorious

38:16

tree over here to our right. Um.

38:19

You say it's a massive, hundred and fifty year

38:21

old rio grand cottonwood tree.

38:24

And you know, you say it spreads

38:26

its gnarled limbs over the lawn, which

38:28

is true. The twists and turns in it are

38:31

are are stunning. And you say, basically,

38:33

in a lot of ways, it looks like an imperfect tree.

38:36

Um. And you go on to say, divine perfection

38:38

is precisely the ability to include

38:41

what seems like imperfection. And

38:43

you've got a sign in your office that says life

38:45

does not have to be perfect to

38:48

be wonderful. You can come back

38:50

and read it. It's still there, the sign

38:52

I mean, and the and the tree

38:55

is gloriously still there. Yeah. Everybody

38:57

wants to paint it or take a picture of

38:59

it. They tell me. An

39:01

arborist told me that he thinks

39:04

it had a mutation which

39:06

made it take the circuitous,

39:09

unnatural bends in

39:11

the even large trunk

39:13

branches. In the

39:16

rediscovery of the Gospel, we

39:19

discovered nothing else but that

39:22

that evil is not something you

39:25

can ever totally eliminate, exclude,

39:28

dismissed, discard. You

39:31

have to forgive it. Forgiveness

39:34

is different. It's still there.

39:38

Yeah. I call it the inclusion

39:40

of the negative that's

39:42

at the heart of the gospel.

39:45

But I think the Western dualistic

39:47

mind was just not capable

39:49

of seeing that. You know, I was teaching

39:51

my last time last summer in Germany

39:54

and you're probably familiar, uh

39:57

with the classic I can all

40:00

GRIFFI of St. Michael. He's on

40:02

a horse. George

40:04

is more on a horse. Michael's more just

40:06

standing there heroically, and

40:09

he's stabbing a dragon or standing

40:11

on the dragon. That's

40:13

pretty much where we've been up to now,

40:16

really assuming that

40:18

the dragon can be killed, right.

40:22

See, that's a lie. That's not true.

40:25

God uses evil for

40:28

your transformation. We now have

40:30

words for it. We call it integration,

40:33

reconciliation. Well,

40:36

while I was there, they took me to

40:39

uh several different churches and

40:41

art museums where they had

40:43

a pictures that only

40:45

apparently were common for a

40:47

certain period in the Middle Ages of

40:50

St. Martha. No, ide'm

40:52

this is not biblical. I don't

40:54

know where it comes from. But St.

40:56

Martha is never pictured,

41:00

uh stabbing our spearing

41:02

the dragon. She's always feeding

41:05

it. Here we go to the wolf

41:07

again or petting it, and

41:11

it's always a side picture. But

41:13

it's and my friend who's

41:15

fascinated by these same things, he

41:17

took me to church after church

41:21

in Nuremberg we were at that time, but

41:23

then we went on to Munich, where

41:25

there it is again. Martha is

41:27

always off to the side. And

41:30

isn't it interesting. There's the masculine

41:33

approach to killing

41:35

evil, and there's the feminine approach,

41:38

and Martha tames

41:42

the dragon. Now

41:44

we'd call that restorative justice.

41:48

It isn't It doesn't punish,

41:51

it transforms yea.

41:54

Yeah, you know parents are already doing

41:56

that with their little children. If

41:58

you really want to help up your children,

42:00

grow up. You don't just punish

42:03

them, you teach them.

42:07

Okay, now, why isn't that a good

42:09

thing to do? Why would it be good

42:11

to now apologize to your little

42:13

sister for what you just

42:15

did? Or it's it's we've already

42:18

learned this at the human level. Where

42:20

did we learn that from the way God operates?

42:24

Jesus punishes nobody,

42:27

check it out. He calls people

42:29

to responsibility. But

42:32

the real punishing

42:35

notion of Christ came

42:38

after he was gone, and

42:40

we largely projected it onto him.

42:42

In my opinion, I love that story

42:45

about St. Martha and feeding

42:47

the dragon. You know another thing that you

42:50

know, these things I say over and over, One

42:52

of the big ones is this idea that

42:55

suffering equals pain times resistance,

42:58

you know, the resistance to this. And I was in

43:00

a in a workshop I was doing recently. I was talking

43:02

about the story of Milarapa,

43:06

a Buddhist. I

43:08

don't know what you would call him. I'll just call him a sage

43:10

where you know, he has a story where there's all these demons

43:13

in his cave and he's chasing him around

43:16

trying to get rid of him. Then he's trying to teach him

43:18

the dharma trying, you know, he's doing everything

43:20

he could do, and he finally says, fine,

43:23

demons stay, and most

43:25

of them disappear, and then there's one

43:27

big demon remaining, just the you

43:29

know, the big gnarly demon,

43:32

and he finally just puts his head

43:34

in its mouth. So

43:36

it's speaking to this same idea, you

43:38

know, St. Martha and the dragon. It

43:41

sure is, thank you, I've never

43:43

heard that before. Yeah, you

43:46

see, well, you know this, it's a non violence

43:48

training one oh one when you

43:50

return and kind. Once

43:53

Michael starts stabbing the dragon,

43:56

he's become a dragon. He's

43:58

not St. Michael anymore. War But

44:01

it is the dualistic mind

44:04

of earlier history just

44:07

couldn't read things that way. Yeah,

44:09

it's not their fault. It

44:12

was all uh

44:14

power and force, not

44:17

love that change things. Yeah,

44:20

you have a beautiful quote that ties a few

44:22

of the things we just talked about, the seeing

44:24

things Buddhist perspective. You say, after

44:27

all, there's not a native Hindu, Buddhist,

44:29

Jewish, Islamic, or Christian way of loving.

44:31

There's not a Methodist, Lutheran or Orthodox

44:34

way of running a soup kitchen. There's

44:36

not a gay or straight way of being faithful,

44:39

nor a black or occasion way

44:41

of hoping. We all know positive

44:43

flow and we see it, and we all

44:45

know resistance and coldness

44:48

when we feel it. All the rest your

44:50

mere labels. Thank

44:52

you. It's

44:54

a beautiful I

44:57

don't know someone did recently, but

44:59

it must be ranking people. Uh.

45:02

Yeah, you know that's hard to

45:04

deny. It has nothing to do with

45:06

me being Catholic or someone

45:09

else being another denomination. That's

45:11

just undeniable truth. If

45:14

you can be honest, and you know,

45:16

I've said others have said many

45:18

times, the only the only

45:21

two virtues you

45:23

really need our humility and honesty

45:26

two move forward

45:28

on the spiritual life. If

45:31

you lack humility to

45:33

admit that. You know, if

45:36

the Buddhist said it, and it's true,

45:38

it's true. Thomas

45:40

A. Quintas told us, who's

45:42

of course, considered the great Catholic intellectual.

45:46

The first question should not be

45:49

who said it? The first

45:51

question should be is it true?

45:55

And if it's true, it's

45:57

always from the Holy Spirit. I

46:00

love that. Always from the Holy

46:02

Spirit. So it doesn't matter

46:04

Confucius said it or Mohammad

46:07

said it. Uh,

46:09

why can't we see that? Well,

46:12

it's it's revealed it

46:14

reveals. It seems to me how tribal

46:16

we are. We only believe truth

46:19

from our tribe. Yeah, all

46:21

else's suspect. Well,

46:25

you end up with very small truth,

46:28

you do. And it's so interesting to me how

46:31

you know, we can talk about how Christians

46:34

do that, but I know some pretty

46:37

strong non Christians to put it politely,

46:39

and there's it's the same way if it speaks

46:41

of a church or a god or anything, it's

46:44

just it's nonsense, right,

46:46

which is just is it's

46:49

just as bad as the the opposite

46:51

of that, which is, you know, if it's not said

46:53

in the right way in my particular orthodoxy,

46:56

it's not. I mean, it's but I agree with you,

46:58

and that's why I loved going back

47:00

to what we talked about that you said anything

47:03

that draws you out of yourself in a positive

47:05

way, And I think it's so easy to feel.

47:08

And and people often say to me, how do you know if you're

47:10

feeding the bad wolf? And I said, well, usually

47:14

if you're quiet, you

47:16

know, if you're if

47:18

you're quiet, you can feel it. It's

47:20

a it's a it's

47:22

a constriction, it's a tightness, it's

47:24

a it's a contraction. I keep referencing

47:27

the same spiritual teacher Audio Shanti is

47:29

who it is and who was also on Oprah

47:31

and been on our show several times. Um.

47:35

One thing he said that really

47:37

hit me. He's talking about this the ego structure,

47:40

and he said, all ego is, all

47:43

it is is just a constriction. And

47:46

and that's why I love that line of yours,

47:49

you know. Yeah, I mean, and whether it's exactly

47:51

true or not, but it speaks to

47:54

the same thing that you're saying. If it's if it's this

47:56

outflowing a

47:58

bigger fighter perspective,

48:01

that's that's the spiritual impulse working

48:03

through and this constriction, this tightness

48:07

we feel it. I know

48:09

it isn't a word, and it's somewhat crude,

48:13

but I called it outflowing or in

48:15

sucking. And

48:17

after a while you can tell when

48:19

you're in sucking. Yes, you're

48:22

just pulling back, hardening

48:25

your edges. It has

48:27

the taste of fear to it.

48:30

It, it's a coldness

48:32

to it. Yeah, you've

48:35

got to learn to recognize

48:37

that in your own body. But because

48:39

we didn't pay much attention to the body,

48:42

we let it go unnoticed, literally

48:45

unnoticed. Yeah.

48:47

Yeah, well, I want to read another

48:49

line of yours. You say, I have never been

48:51

separate from God, nor can

48:53

I be accept in my mind.

48:57

It's your mind. It's

49:00

the thought that you're separate from God

49:03

that creates the separateness. It

49:05

isn't objectively. So that's

49:09

the other major piece of restoring

49:12

the Gospel. Thinking that

49:14

we earn divine union

49:17

by moral behavior. You

49:19

don't earn divine union. You

49:22

are created out of

49:24

infinite union with God from all

49:26

eternity. God chose

49:29

you in Christ from all eternity.

49:32

Read Ephesians one.

49:34

I think it says at three times, So

49:37

you can't call this heresy.

49:40

Are our unscriptural? But

49:44

we the Western

49:46

civilizations really

49:48

idealized the mind, and

49:51

so it had no critique, granted

49:55

it. All we did was fight

49:57

within the arena of

49:59

the mind. Are different of different philosophies

50:02

and so forth. But

50:04

the only people who moved beyond the mind's

50:07

dominance were people we would

50:09

call mystics contemplatives.

50:11

They didn't throughout the mind, but

50:14

they gave it its due. But

50:16

it didn't control the whole show because

50:19

we let it control the whole show. I

50:23

think therefore I am there. It is.

50:26

That's Western philosophy, and in

50:29

one sentence, are thinking

50:31

defines us um

50:34

gee because

50:36

that it took on the

50:38

mind, took on, if you'll allow me,

50:41

an almost demonic character, that

50:44

demanded total allegiance.

50:47

And what it did was convict

50:49

us of our unworthiness,

50:52

of our shame. Uh.

50:56

You know the word of of Yahweh

50:58

to Adam and Eve after

51:00

they leave the garden, who told you

51:02

you were naked? As if to say

51:05

I didn't. But once you leave

51:07

the garden of Union, reality

51:10

will tell you your naked. You

51:12

know you're not smart enough, you're not

51:14

good looking enough, You're not your

51:16

body isn't perfect enough, You're

51:19

not moral enough. Became the

51:22

equation if you were raised religious,

51:25

which didn't really mean that

51:28

we loved God. It just meant a search

51:31

for some kind of moral perfection.

51:34

And the irony was that ledger

51:36

of perfection or morality

51:39

was different from culture to culture. Well,

51:43

and that was the benefit of forty

51:46

five years traveling around the world to

51:48

see, well, this isn't considered

51:50

sin here, or this is no

51:53

one's shamed by it over here.

51:56

It's it's not God's will. More often

51:58

than not, it was our will

52:00

to create taboos and

52:03

things. Let's take the classic one

52:06

for Catholics. I know you'd

52:08

probably have different ones. Was

52:10

eating meat on Friday? You

52:13

know my parents and grandparents

52:15

generations, that was

52:18

a mortal sin. It

52:21

isn't even in the realm of evil. And

52:24

when you trivialize evil by

52:27

calling eating meat on Friday a

52:29

mortal sin, you know what happens.

52:32

You miss the real evils that

52:34

are all around you. As I said

52:36

before, where did the first and Second

52:39

World Wars come from? Christian

52:41

Europe? Where

52:44

are we? We wasted time not

52:47

eating meat on Friday? Yeah? I mean it's a fine

52:50

symbol, but it

52:53

isn't evil. And

52:56

we got away with world wars,

52:59

we got away with Nazism.

53:03

Ah, you just want to

53:05

cry. God must be so patient,

53:08

God must be so humble to

53:10

let us go down

53:12

all these dead ends and

53:15

keep drawing us back. Because

53:18

as you know from the book, I

53:20

am absolutely convinced God

53:22

is saving history and

53:24

judging history, not individuals.

53:28

We're all caught up in the divine sweep.

53:31

If that seems like a new notion,

53:33

Notice how he will condemn

53:37

cities Jerusalem, Jerusalem

53:40

our best saida cafarn

53:42

Um. Uh, Corazon,

53:46

where will you go up to having no down

53:48

to hell? He damns

53:51

the whole cultural milieude. You

53:53

understand what we now call social

53:56

sin, and most of us

53:58

have no education in that. So

54:00

I'm writing just a small follow

54:03

up to the this book

54:05

on the Christ because I only alluded

54:08

to it and didn't develop it. I

54:10

I believe salvation is

54:12

a social, corporate, historical

54:15

notion, but I believe sin is

54:17

too. We are

54:20

sinful, you know, I'm

54:22

I'm too fragile to bear

54:24

the burden of sins, so I basically

54:28

deny it. But once

54:30

you know I'm carrying yours and

54:32

you're carrying mine, you

54:35

go back and read Romans, and

54:37

I'd be willing to bet you'd see, my

54:40

gosh, this is what Paul is saying. We

54:43

just all have sinned. You know, we're

54:46

all dying together on

54:49

the vine, and we bear

54:51

one another's goodness, and

54:54

we bear one another's shame. That

54:57

that I'm convinced is

54:59

the God siful. It calls

55:01

us much more to solidarity

55:04

then private perfection. See,

55:07

private perfection just is

55:10

very well disguised egotism,

55:13

very well disguised narcissism.

55:17

It doesn't make you a loving person, as

55:20

if I could be loving. Apart

55:22

from loving, you are perfect

55:24

apart from honoring your

55:26

gifts. So for me,

55:29

that's going to be the discovery of the next thousand

55:32

years if we last. UH

55:35

as the discovery of the social

55:37

nature of the Gospel, which

55:40

is there for everybody to see, but

55:42

you have to be told it. You

55:45

have to be told. Well, that is a

55:47

beautiful place to wrap up. You

55:49

and I are going to talk a little bit

55:51

more in the post show conversation

55:53

about the Voice of God Internal

55:56

Joan of Arc lots of fun

55:58

things. Listeners, you can get access

56:01

to this post show conversation and all

56:03

the others, as well as UH

56:05

teaching song and a poem mini episode

56:07

each week at when you Feed dot Net

56:09

slash Support. Thank you

56:11

so much, Father Richard. You're worth

56:14

such a pleasure, such a pleasure.

56:33

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56:36

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56:38

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