0:00

If we're struggling with depression or we're struggling

0:02

with anxiety, action is actually

0:05

one of the ways that we deal with those problems,

0:07

not by trying to figure them out in our mind.

0:17

Welcome to the one you feed Throughout

0:19

time, great thinkers have recognized the

0:22

importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

0:24

like garbage in, garbage out,

0:26

or you are what you think ring

0:28

true. And yet for many of

0:30

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

0:33

us. We tend toward negativity, self

0:36

pity, jealousy, or fear.

0:38

We see what we don't have instead of what we

0:40

do. We think things that hold us

0:42

back and dampen our spirit. But

0:45

it's not just about thinking. Our

0:47

actions matter. It takes conscious,

0:49

consistent, and creative effort to make

0:51

a life worth living. This podcast

0:54

is about how other people keep themselves moving

0:56

in the right direction, how they feed

0:58

their good wolf m

1:12

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:14

is Greg Creech, and author, poet,

1:17

and one of the leading authorities on Japanese

1:19

psychology in North America. His

1:21

work has been featured in the Sun Magazine,

1:23

Tricycle, Self, Utney

1:25

Reader, Counseling Today, Cosmopolitan,

1:28

and experience life. His

1:30

newest book is the Art of Taking

1:32

Action Lessons from Japanese

1:34

Psychology. If

1:37

you're getting value out of the show, please go to

1:39

one you feed dot Net slash Support

1:42

and make a donation. This will ensure

1:44

that all five episodes that are

1:46

in the archive will remain free and

1:48

that the show is here for other people who need

1:51

it. Some other ways that you can support

1:53

is is if you're interested in the book that we're

1:55

discussing on today's episode, go

1:57

to one you feed dot net and find

1:59

the episode that we're talking about. There will

2:01

be links to all of the author's books, and if

2:04

you buy them through there, it's the same price to you,

2:06

but we get a small amount. Also,

2:08

you can go to one you feed dot Net slash

2:10

book and I have a reading list

2:12

there when you feed dot net slash

2:15

shop and you can buy t shirts, mugs

2:17

and other things. And finally, one

2:19

you feed dot Net slash Facebook,

2:21

which is where our Facebook group is and

2:24

you can interact with other listeners of the show

2:26

and get support in feeding your Good Wolf.

2:29

Thanks again for listening, And

2:33

here's the interview with Greg Creech.

2:36

Hi Greg, Welcome to the show. Hi Eric, it's a

2:38

pleasure to be on ther show. Your most recent

2:40

book is called The Art of Taking Action

2:42

Lessons from Japanese Psychology, and

2:45

I loved it. It's very much in line

2:47

with a lot of the things we talked about on the show.

2:49

A phrase I use very often

2:52

as you can't think your way

2:54

into right action. Sometimes you have to act your way

2:56

into right thinking. And that's a pretty much

2:58

what a lot of the book is about. So we'll

3:00

go into all that in just a moment,

3:02

but let's start like we always do, with the parable.

3:05

There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson.

3:07

He says, in life, there are two wolves

3:09

inside of us that are always

3:11

at battle. One is a good wolf, which

3:14

represents things like kindness and bravery

3:16

and love, and the other is a bad

3:18

wolf, which represents things like greed

3:21

and hatred and fear. And the grandson

3:23

stops and he thinks about it for a second and looks

3:26

up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which

3:28

one wins? And the grandfather

3:31

says, the one you feed. So

3:33

I'd like to start off by asking you

3:35

what that parable means to you in your

3:37

life and in the work that you do. Well,

3:40

Thank you Eric and Um, I like that

3:43

herble, and I think it has a lot to

3:45

say, and I'd like to make just two observations

3:47

because we could actually spend a lot of time talking about

3:50

it. But the first is that in

3:52

the grandfather's role of teaching the grandchild,

3:55

he mentions that there are two wolves,

3:58

and so he's making it very clear

4:00

that within us we

4:02

have the capacity to be selfish

4:05

and greedy and mean and impatient,

4:09

that that's part of our

4:11

character, and I think that it's really

4:13

important for us to recognize that.

4:15

I think that probably one of the

4:18

most important steps in terms

4:20

of dealing with that wolf is the recognition

4:23

that that wolf exists. And

4:25

so if we if we aren't aware of

4:27

the existence of that wolf, then I think

4:30

we have very little chance of being able to work

4:33

with that wolf. The second thing that I

4:35

was thinking about is really based on

4:37

the last four words of the grandfather, the one

4:39

you feed. And of course, if these were

4:41

real wolves, we could think of the term

4:43

food literally, but they're not real

4:46

wolves, the wolves that are part of our character

4:48

or our spirit. Um, So what does

4:50

it mean to give a wolf food

4:53

in that type of situation? And I

4:55

would argue that one of the

4:57

main ways that we would feed a wolf is

5:00

actually by how we act in

5:02

the world, how we engage in the

5:04

world. That if we

5:07

engage with others in the world with

5:10

kindness and generosity and compassion,

5:13

that to me is how we feed that wolf. And if

5:15

we engage selfishly or

5:18

with anger or based

5:21

on greed, then we're feeding that wolf. So I

5:23

think that in many ways, the way we

5:25

feed those wolves is based on

5:27

our conduct in the world. Yeah, I

5:29

agree. Early in the book, you have a line

5:32

where you're discussing how most of us think

5:34

of the Eastern wisdom

5:37

as being very contemplative. You know, I think

5:39

meditation is what a lot of us think of, or

5:41

perhaps yoga, but you say there's also

5:43

a foundation of Eastern wisdom that's

5:45

directed towards action, right, And

5:47

I think that our Western society has

5:50

really gravitated towards Eastern

5:52

philosophy and Zen and Buddhism

5:54

in many ways because of the

5:56

meditative and self reflective nature,

5:59

uh of of that approach to life. And that

6:02

was really how I started as well, and I think it's very

6:04

important. But there is another approach

6:06

and and many years ago I actually

6:08

had an opportunity to work with Tick

6:11

not Han, the Zen teacher back

6:13

in the nies. In fact, I traveled

6:16

with him as his sound recording

6:18

person for about six months, and

6:20

he was the person that introduced me to this

6:22

concept of taking your practice off

6:24

your cushion, because

6:27

up until that point, I think I really saw

6:30

Buddhism and Zen as contemplative

6:33

practices. And it wasn't. They

6:35

weren't contemplative practices, but he

6:37

really emphasized the idea that, um,

6:40

you bring your practice into your life

6:42

when you get off your cushion, by the

6:45

way you answer the phone, or the way you wash the dishes,

6:47

or the way you have dinner with your family,

6:50

and so to me, those are aspects

6:54

of our life that are involved action and

6:56

our conduct and um, not just

6:59

meditation contemplation. Another

7:01

thing that you talk about is how the

7:04

Western mental health perspective

7:06

on the world has largely

7:08

ignored action and really focuses

7:11

more on talk therapy or self

7:13

analysis and that sort of thing, whereas

7:16

this Eastern philosophy, again is focused

7:19

on action. You've got a line that says taking action

7:21

is one of the most important skills you can

7:23

master if you wish to maintain

7:25

good mental health. Right, and I

7:27

think that there is a kind of

7:29

underlying assumption in a lot of

7:32

Western mental health, not all, but

7:34

a lot of it, which is that we have to

7:36

figure out life in our minds

7:39

before we can act, and we have

7:42

to somehow

7:44

fix or work through particular

7:47

feelings or problem

7:49

thoughts before we can do the things

7:51

we need to do in our life. And I think

7:53

what we see in the

7:56

kinds of mental health processes

7:59

that come from the East, and specifically from

8:01

Japan, is that action is actually

8:03

a way of dealing with those kinds of problems.

8:06

That if we're struggling with depression

8:08

or we're struggling with anxiety,

8:10

that action is actually one

8:13

of the ways that we deal with those problems, not

8:15

by trying to figure them out in our mind first

8:18

in this kind of linear way,

8:20

but that taking action itself

8:22

can actually be the treatment and

8:24

solution to many of those problems. I

8:27

couldn't agree more. I think, you know, the idea

8:29

of thinking your way out of depression or anxiety

8:32

is challenging because the very thing that does

8:34

the thinking is the thing that's in some

8:36

cases, you know, a little bit on the broke side.

8:39

And uh, I've always found that for me,

8:41

action is so important as a saying I use

8:43

a lot, which is depression hates a moving

8:45

target. I think that's great, and and

8:47

I think part of what isn't

8:49

often recognized is that by

8:52

continuing to focus, or if you're a therapist,

8:54

by having your client focus on

8:57

what's going on in your mind or your feeling

8:59

state, we're actually taking that

9:01

energy that that we call attention

9:04

and we're turning it inside. And so

9:06

a lot of what you see in the Japanese

9:09

psychology is really seeing

9:11

our attention as needing to engage

9:13

in the world, whether that be you

9:15

know, doing work in the world,

9:18

or whether it be simply keeping our focus

9:20

when we're taking walk on our surroundings,

9:23

on the leaves and the grass and the lighting,

9:25

instead of getting caught up in our thoughts and

9:28

our underlying emotional state. And in

9:30

your book, you're really bringing together three

9:33

different Japanese I'll just call them

9:35

approaches. Right, there's the Marita therapy

9:37

that you've talked about. There's kaizen,

9:40

and then there's um also did you say

9:42

it Nikon? That's correct, And

9:44

so tell me just very briefly about

9:46

what each of those are and then how they

9:48

work together. Well, Marita therapy

9:51

is kind of the action oriented side,

9:53

and it was originally developed as a treatment

9:55

for kind of severe anxiety, and

9:58

a lot of what we've just been tak talking about in the last few

10:00

minutes, really our principles from rate

10:03

the therapy and what we've done is almost

10:05

kind of developed that even further into

10:07

a concept that is the name of

10:09

the journal I edit called thirty thousand

10:11

days, and thirty thousand days is the

10:14

average amount of days that each of us has to live.

10:17

And so the idea is to really

10:20

make our focus what we want to do with

10:22

our life, what's important, what gives

10:24

our life meaning, and not

10:26

to let our internal feeling

10:28

state or some type of problems

10:30

with our thinking or recurring

10:33

thoughts interfere with

10:35

being able to move forward on the things that are important

10:37

in our life. And so in Rita therapy,

10:40

rather than having to fix our feelings

10:42

of depression or anxiety, UM,

10:44

we developed the skill of coexisting with those

10:47

feelings. So, for example, if you're, let's

10:49

say, have anxiety about making

10:51

a public presentation in

10:53

front of a group of people at work, UM,

10:56

instead of trying to get yourself to feel

10:59

confident and not feel anxious, you accept

11:01

the fact that you're feeling anxious, and you take

11:03

those anxious feelings with you while you get

11:05

up in front of the podium and make your presentation.

11:08

And I know that that sounds very simple, and when

11:11

you're actually in that state, it doesn't

11:13

feel very simple, but it actually is very

11:15

doable to be able to coexist

11:18

with those feelings and yet have our

11:20

action be based on our purpose

11:22

or what is important for us to do. So that's

11:25

kind of a in a nutshell of Marita

11:27

therapy. The second thing you

11:29

mentioned is an approach called Kaisen,

11:32

which originally actually came back

11:34

in World War Two from an approach

11:36

to rebuilding the Japanese industrial

11:39

system after it was decimated by the

11:41

war. And again,

11:43

in simplified terms, it's the idea of

11:46

incremental change incremental improvements.

11:49

So the way that we use this in a therapeutic

11:52

setting or in a personal setting is really

11:54

the importance of taking small steps. In my

11:57

book, I really emphasize that

12:00

taking small steps gives us momentum.

12:02

So if I'm trying to write

12:04

a book and I'm hoping to write something that

12:07

will be the equivalent in length of war and

12:09

peace, um, I start by maybe

12:11

writing one paragraph a day

12:14

or even one sentence a day.

12:16

And obviously that's not going to get me

12:18

very far if I'm trying to write a

12:20

book that's going to be a thousand pages. But

12:22

what it does do is if I can do that every day,

12:25

it starts giving me momentum. And

12:27

once I'm in a flow of writing, um,

12:30

even if I've just committed to writing one paragraph,

12:32

I may end up writing two paragraphs or

12:34

two pages or ten pages because

12:37

I was able to sit down and actually start

12:40

writing. And I think Kaisen is all

12:42

about momentum and taking those

12:44

small steps. And then finally you

12:46

mentioned Nikehon, which is really the

12:49

other side of the coin. It is the quiet

12:52

reflective approach

12:55

that has to do with going

12:57

inside and reflecting in our

12:59

life and exam meaning how we've lived and specifically

13:02

the relationships that we have. And it's um

13:05

an amazing method for cultivating gratitude

13:08

and for kind of shifting

13:10

from what I would call a complaint

13:12

based life to um a

13:14

life based on authentic

13:17

appreciation and gratitude for what we

13:19

have and for just our existence itself.

13:21

Excellent. Will come back around to Nikon

13:24

in particular, and there's a very structured method

13:27

that you can use so we'll talk about that in

13:29

a little bit. I'd like to focus right now on kind

13:31

of what you just said about a complaint focused

13:34

life, and I'm just gonna read something you said. You said when we

13:36

find ourselves in situations that stimulate

13:38

emotional discomfort, we immediately

13:40

look to escape from the discomfort, just

13:43

as if it was summer heat or winter cold.

13:45

We often use one of three strategies,

13:48

avoidance, resignation, or

13:51

complaining. I think avoidance

13:53

a lot of us kind of have an idea of what that's

13:55

like, whether we're trying to avoid by

13:57

watching TV or taking drugs or doing different

13:59

things. But let's talk about resignation

14:02

and complaining. In Morito therapy, one

14:04

of the key principles is this

14:06

Japanese term autogamama, which means

14:08

to accept things as they are. But

14:11

accepting things as they are isn't necessarily

14:13

passive. It doesn't mean, for instance, that

14:15

if we receive a diagnosis

14:18

of cancer that we simply

14:20

say, well, I've got cancer, I guess

14:22

I'm going to dial just basically lay

14:24

around in bed until my life is over.

14:27

That would be how I would characterize resignation

14:30

um whereas acceptance

14:33

from the perspective that we

14:35

haven't. Morito therapy means that

14:37

we have to accept things as they are. So

14:39

here, I received this diagnosis of a serious

14:42

illness, and the first

14:44

thing that I need to do before I can

14:46

take action is to accept the reality

14:48

of my circumstances. Once

14:51

I've accepted the reality of microcircumstances,

14:54

then I can think about, well, is there something I

14:56

can do about this? What's controllable,

14:58

what isn't controllable in situation. So,

15:01

in other words, acceptance becomes a way

15:03

a precursor in many cases to

15:05

taking action, whereas resignation

15:08

is almost always leads to inaction.

15:10

You've got a line where you say that in

15:12

resignation, you know, rather than stepping

15:15

back and observing our feelings, we are

15:17

overcome by them, right, I think it. It's

15:19

very easy, particularly when we're faced with something

15:21

really difficult or tragic

15:24

or crisis, to turn our

15:26

attention and our energy inward, and that

15:28

means we get caught up in our

15:31

feelings and caught up in our thoughts um

15:34

and we can easily go through long

15:36

periods of time without taking any kind

15:38

of constructive action in response

15:41

to the situation because

15:43

all of our energy is going inside. And

15:45

I think part of what we're trying to

15:47

do, and part of the unique character

15:50

of uh moretotherapy

15:52

and Japanese psychology is the recognition

15:55

that that energy, that energy for

15:57

example, of anxiety or of neuros,

16:00

this is actually valuable. It's

16:02

not something we want to get rid of. The

16:04

question becomes can we channel it in

16:06

a constructive way instead of just

16:08

basically having its cycle inside and

16:11

create more and more suffering for us? And what about

16:13

complaining? Well, Complaining is probably something

16:15

that one

16:22

of the most common things when I do a book

16:24

signing for my books

16:26

on Nicoon is for someone to come up to me at the end

16:28

and say, um, you know that was

16:30

that was a great presentation, and I'm going to buy

16:32

your book because my wife or my husband

16:35

really needs this. But

16:37

I think that again, if we think about

16:39

just even the way we express ourselves as energy,

16:42

complaining really has very

16:45

little positive results to it, right,

16:47

And what it does is it keeps us stuck

16:50

in looking at the problems

16:52

or difficulties in our life, the things that

16:54

are causing us trouble. Um

16:57

complaining is you know, it's almost if you think

16:59

going back to are parable about which wolf do

17:01

you feed um when we complain. I

17:03

think what we do is we feed the wolf

17:06

of complaining, because

17:08

the more we complain, the more that wolf is nourished.

17:11

And so it's it's very hard, if

17:13

not impossible, to not complain at all. But

17:15

I think what we can do is focus on

17:18

what we can do instead of complaining, which is to basically

17:21

be able to recognize the

17:23

things that are supporting us, the way that we're

17:25

cared for the things that are going

17:27

well in our life, and to express

17:29

that, whether it be to you know, our wife

17:32

or husband, or or Chris who's

17:34

in there working and for you right

17:37

now. To be able to express those things um,

17:39

which is channeling that energy in a different way

17:42

and taking our attention away from

17:44

complaining about problems in their life.

18:05

We've had several guests on who are

18:08

proponents of are one of the people who sort of

18:10

invented acceptance and commitment therapy,

18:12

which really has a lot in common

18:15

with with what I'm hearing here. It's it's

18:17

very much that idea of you're

18:19

going to have certain emotions and feelings, that's

18:22

okay, deal with them, look at the values in

18:24

your life, and then take the actions based on those. So

18:26

there's a lot of similarity there,

18:28

and so I think listeners of the show will will find

18:31

a through line in that. Yeah, I do think that

18:33

that, particularly with the Marita at therapy

18:35

aspect of Japanese psychology, there is clearly

18:37

a lot of overlap between that and a CT. We

18:40

we've actually trained people here who

18:43

have also trained in a CT and they

18:45

see that as well. So one of the main tenants

18:47

of Marita therapy, you say, is that

18:50

our internal experience, feelings and

18:52

thoughts is basically uncontrollable

18:54

by our will, right, And I think that, Uh,

18:57

it's it's the recognition, for instance,

19:00

that if I'm feeling upset,

19:02

if I'm feeling depressed, if I'm feeling

19:04

anxious, um, I can't really control

19:07

that feeling. I can't simply will myself

19:10

not to be anxious before I stand up in

19:12

front of a group and make a presentation. And

19:14

so there's a lot of methodology

19:17

in the West which really is about trying

19:20

to control our internal experience. Um.

19:22

But if you go to the for

19:25

instance, Zen practice, meditation

19:27

and Zen, what we're really just trying

19:30

to do is become aware of what's coming up.

19:32

We're not trying to get ourselves to think positive

19:35

thoughts and to not think negative thoughts.

19:37

We're just trying to be able to notice how

19:39

those whatever thoughts, how

19:41

they come up during our period of meditation, and

19:44

we watch them arise, and we watched the feelings

19:46

that come with them, and

19:48

then we watch them dissolve. And I think what

19:51

we're trying to do in read a therapy is very

19:53

similar to that, except instead of doing it during

19:55

meditation, we're doing it throughout our day

19:58

um, which is to notice are feeling

20:00

of impatience or a feeling of anger, or

20:03

a feeling of anxiety about something, and

20:06

just allow those feelings to be what they are,

20:08

but not to allow them to keep

20:10

us from moving forward and taking action

20:13

that's required by the situation that we're

20:15

in. And that's really the key. In fact, one

20:17

of the ways that I define realistic

20:20

action is action that is

20:22

based on the needs of the situation. Right,

20:25

so, if if your little

20:28

one year old child is at the table

20:30

and she's fills for milk,

20:32

um, what are the needs of the situation? And

20:35

that determines what action you take. It's

20:37

not determined by how we feel, even

20:39

though that may play a role in the situation,

20:42

but many of us use our feeling

20:44

state as the primary criteria

20:47

for what action we take. So you think about

20:49

what happens when you open the refrigerator door.

20:52

You're thinking, what do I feel like eating? Right?

20:55

Um, But there's other more important questions

20:58

like what needs to be eaten, there's

21:00

things that are about to spoil or based

21:02

on my own diet, and

21:04

what I feel like is healthy to

21:06

me? Um, what should I

21:08

eat? Right? So it's the question

21:11

of what do I feel like eating may

21:13

come up almost automatically, but that's

21:15

because many of us are simply tuned

21:17

in to our feeling state in a way

21:20

that we give it that power to

21:23

assert itself and almost make those

21:25

decisions about how we act. Yeah,

21:27

you say that the preoccupation with

21:29

our internal experience, thought, and feelings

21:31

tends to intensify our suffering while

21:34

distractness from activity that can give our

21:36

life meaning and purpose. And that

21:38

rings so true to me. I mean, as I've as

21:41

I've gone on in life, I've I've found

21:43

that the big thing that has changed for me

21:45

is the ability to take action

21:48

based on calum values

21:50

or what the what the situation requires

21:53

versus my mood. For a large

21:55

part of my life, particularly when I was an addict. I mean,

21:57

how I felt was the primary

21:59

dry ever of all my actions, and it

22:01

did not turn out well. I think it would be

22:04

one way to look at it. If

22:06

you were able to actually map

22:08

out your feelings over even

22:10

just let's say the last year, you would

22:12

see that it's a It's a tremendous roller

22:15

coaster for most of us, right, I mean, think

22:17

about relationships. You know, we could be madly

22:19

in love with our partner one minute and

22:21

and the next minute we have this tremendous

22:23

anger about something they said or did. Um

22:26

At one minute we're thinking, oh, I'm so lucky to

22:28

be with this person, and the next minute we're thinking,

22:31

I got to get out of this relationship. And so

22:33

what we see is that our thoughts and our

22:35

feelings are constantly shifting,

22:37

you know, in this roller coaster like way.

22:40

And if we base our actions

22:43

on that roller coaster, then um,

22:46

we end up with a pretty chaotic approach

22:48

to life. But if we can learn

22:50

to recognize those thoughts and feelings, UM,

22:53

accept them, let them essentially be

22:57

what they are, but respond

23:00

way you describe towards values or purpose

23:02

or what the situation needs, UM, we

23:04

can develop a life that is much more likely

23:06

to provide meeting and to provide a contribution

23:09

to the world in our community

23:11

and our family. And in order to do that, one

23:13

of the challenges right particularly in modern society,

23:16

has taken the time to figure those things out, to

23:18

stop long enough and think

23:21

about what's important and how do we want to

23:23

spend our time, and how do we want to you

23:25

know, what do we want to foster in our

23:28

lives? And and you talk about that in the book,

23:30

and I think it's just sort of a very common thing

23:32

that we all wrestle with, is is taking

23:34

the time to be aware and pay enough

23:36

attention to think through that absolutely

23:38

and I think, um, you know, we have a little h

23:40

hermitage. We call it the Tea House, that's about

23:43

four feet up the hill from the

23:45

main house here, and people will come and

23:47

they'll sometimes spend two days or

23:49

three days. I'm just in solitude

23:51

there and it's really a wonderful thing because

23:53

it allows you to step back from your life

23:56

and really question how you're living

23:58

your life and how you want to move forward.

24:01

And I think that that's absolutely essential,

24:03

because otherwise we just get caught up

24:05

in the business of our day to day

24:08

lives and UM, the next thing

24:10

we know, you know, the it's the end of the year.

24:12

We always have that response right in October

24:14

and November, we think, oh my goodness, the year is almost

24:17

over. Where did it go? Um? And

24:19

where it went is to just living every

24:21

day And the important

24:23

thing is to have these um

24:25

periods on a regular basis as

24:28

much as we can. And it's not you can't always

24:30

take two or three days, but sometimes you

24:32

can take an evening or you can take a Sunday

24:34

morning for a few hours where you can really step

24:37

back from your life, reflect on where

24:39

you've been, what's important to you, what are your

24:41

values, and make some choices

24:43

or decisions about um what you

24:45

need to do to move forward, which may involve

24:48

some significant changes in your

24:50

life. Yeah, you've got a

24:52

part where you talk about asking yourself what

24:54

is my purpose? Is a good way

24:56

to do that? And I, you know, I've got a similar for

24:59

me. I sort of ask my off, like

25:01

what am I doing right now? And is what

25:04

I'm doing important to me? And you

25:06

say, be careful if you answer this question.

25:08

It's dangerous because if you ask it while watching

25:10

TV, surfing the web, or reading in a

25:13

romance and novel, you may be hard pressed

25:15

to come up with a justification for what you're doing.

25:17

Yeah, we we don't always like

25:19

to be confronted with the reality

25:22

of how we're living or how we're using our

25:24

time. But I think that that's particularly

25:26

important. You know. I had met

25:29

with somebody the other day who

25:31

who was an old student of mine that I had

25:34

worked with many decades ago act

25:36

actually, and uh, we kind of reconnected,

25:38

and he was saying that, you know,

25:41

um, I'm really going to take some time at

25:43

this point to figure out what I want

25:45

to do with my life. And

25:47

I said that's great, and he said, but I'm

25:50

not going to rush through this. You know, I'm going

25:52

to take my time. And I

25:54

said, well, you know, you're seventy seven

25:56

years old and so, which

25:59

is true. And and I said, you

26:01

have to really think about, um,

26:04

whether you really want to take your time doing

26:06

this or not. But I don't want

26:08

to give people the impression that if

26:10

you're sixty seven or forty seven

26:13

or thirty seven, that there's less of an urgency,

26:15

because to me, there's always an

26:17

urgency to the question of what is

26:19

it that that I want to do with my life. Um,

26:22

we should always consider that to be one

26:24

of the most important questions that we can ask,

26:27

and always devote a certain amount of energy

26:29

and time to answering that question, because

26:31

if we do, we can keep shifting

26:33

our life, you know, kind of like a sailboat

26:36

trying to work with the wind or the breeze.

26:38

Um. But if we don't, we easily

26:41

get caught up in the habit of living the

26:43

way that we've been living last year or the year

26:45

before. Um, And before

26:47

we know what, we are seventy seven and

26:49

we look back and we haven't done the things that

26:51

are important for us to do in our life. You say,

26:53

One of the puzzling lessons I have learned is

26:55

that more often than not, I do not feel

26:58

like doing most of the things that need to and I

27:00

puzzle over that all the time. Also,

27:03

the one that I talked about on the show and I talked about

27:05

with friends is exercise. I mean, literally,

27:07

every time I've ever done it, I have been happy.

27:09

I did it without fail. It's a and

27:13

yet still it's a

27:15

it's a challenge, and I am just sort of puzzled

27:17

by that. Do you have any theories on

27:19

on why that is, or do you just kind of accept it

27:22

as is and and work to counter it. I think your

27:24

point is really well taken, and I think exercise

27:26

is really the perfect example of

27:28

that, because, um, I would

27:30

would also say that the

27:33

time when I go swimming

27:36

or go biking or go to the gym

27:38

to work out, um, halfway

27:41

through or towards the end of my workout or after

27:43

the workout, I'm I'm really feeling great,

27:45

and I'm thinking, I'm so glad I did

27:47

this, and you know, and I my blood

27:50

is moving around, and my body feels stronger

27:52

and and my respiratory system is stronger.

27:55

Um. And yet even though I'm getting

27:59

reinforcement for that, uh, the

28:01

next day will come and I'll think I don't

28:03

really want to get any current right right,

28:06

and and so I think, like, like, what

28:08

kind of mind do I have that I can't

28:10

finally learn this lesson? But

28:14

what we can do is recognize

28:16

that that voice that basically

28:19

says you don't really feel like going

28:21

to the gym, you don't really feel like getting

28:24

on your bike and riding down the road

28:26

right now, UM, that that's just a voice.

28:29

It's just a thought, right, And

28:31

we can use that wisdom

28:33

that we have learned where we do know that

28:36

it's not just that exercise is good for us,

28:38

but that we act it actually will often

28:41

shift our feelings, it will often shift our

28:43

thoughts. So we have a

28:45

maxim and I think it's it's also in the book

28:47

called Lead with the Body, and it's

28:49

it's really the solution to the

28:51

situation that that we're talking about right

28:53

now, which is when you don't feel

28:56

like exercising, and when you have this voice

28:58

saying, you know what, you didn't sleep

29:00

last night and you've had a long day, just

29:03

relax and zone out in front of HBO

29:05

or something that, UM, you

29:07

lead with the body. In other words, you allow

29:10

your body to basically get up, walk

29:12

over to the door, put on your jogging

29:14

shoes, you put on your t shirt,

29:17

and all the while you can go ahead and have that

29:19

the feeling state, the emotional state

29:21

of feeling lazy and tired, have

29:23

that voice in your head, but your body

29:26

essentially gets your started. And

29:28

UM, we can trust the body

29:30

in many ways much more than we can trust the

29:32

mind in those situations. UM. And

29:35

we find out as you just describe

29:37

it, once we get out there, once we're

29:39

exercising. UM, the vast

29:41

majority of time, we feel good about

29:43

what we did and we're actually doing something that's

29:46

really good for us. Yeah. The other thing you

29:48

talk about, you you say this, you say, if you don't

29:50

feel like doing your taxes now, just

29:53

accept that you'll probably never feel

29:55

like doing them. And that's been so

29:57

helpful for me, because I'll procrastinate

29:59

something that I want to do, and then I'll think, am I

30:01

really going to be more ready to do it

30:04

next Wednesday? Am I gonna want to do it next

30:06

Wednesday? I'm never going to want to do it,

30:08

And that helps me just to go ahead and then

30:10

do it instead of putting off.

30:13

That's an understanding that has been very helpful to

30:15

me, and I'm glad about that. And I think

30:17

it's just a it's just a truth,

30:19

you know, that we kid

30:21

ourselves thinking that because I

30:24

don't feel like washing the dishes now, that I'm going

30:26

to feel like washing the dishes later

30:28

on tonight or tomorrow or exercise

30:31

or Texas. Texas is I would

30:33

use as an example because it's one of my things.

30:36

Um as well and uh

30:38

and so and but one of the things that

30:40

I find is that even

30:43

with Texas, which is high up on my

30:45

list for things that I would really

30:47

rather not to. Once I actually

30:49

am doing them, I will have at

30:51

least little strings of moments

30:54

where I think, this isn't so bad, um.

30:58

And so I also times we'll

31:00

use this phrase that the anticipation

31:03

is often worse than the consummation, right,

31:06

So so we suffer. We suffer

31:08

more from that whole process

31:10

of trying to avoid doing what we need to do.

31:13

And when we get in there and do it, and this isn't always

31:15

true, but it's true in many cases, once

31:17

we're actually doing it, we often think,

31:19

you know this, this really wasn't so bad, um.

31:23

And so we can learn from that. We can we can

31:25

recognize that we can save ourselves some suffering

31:28

by doing what we need to do now or

31:30

in a timely way, rather than procrastinating

31:33

and putting it off and and adding

31:35

to essentially all of that time that we

31:38

can suffer before we ultimately

31:40

have to do the thing. Anyway, I agree, all

31:43

those things are things that I learn and

31:45

continue to learn and and have made such

31:47

a difference. You've got another book that

31:49

is coming out, I think you said next month. What's

31:51

the title of that. It's called Question Your Life

31:54

nikhon self reflection and

31:56

the transformation of our stories.

31:59

And this is the other side of the work that I've

32:01

mentioned earlier called Nikon. It's

32:03

really a method of self reflection

32:05

where we can step back from our life

32:07

and we can reflect on our conduct

32:10

and our behavior, on the way we've lived,

32:12

and very specifically on our

32:14

relationships with the people that really

32:16

we've had meaningful relationships

32:19

with over the course of our life. Yeah. I love

32:21

that idea of transforming our stories

32:24

um or near the end of time. But why don't you

32:26

basically tell us the sort of three

32:28

steps or the three questions

32:31

of Nikon as kind of a way to wrap

32:33

this interview up, and then listeners

32:35

could be on the lookout for your new book and maybe we'll have

32:37

you back to a discuss it in more detail. Okay,

32:40

well, thanks Eric. I perceived this

32:42

process as a method of

32:44

research. In other words, you're actually using

32:46

your life as your research project, and

32:48

the three questions that you're using you

32:50

might think of it as data collection. If you want to think

32:52

of it as research, the first question is

32:55

what have I received from others?

32:57

So if you're reflecting on just the least

32:59

the past day, the past twenty four hours. You

33:01

would just think of everybody. If you're reflecting

33:04

on your best friend or someone

33:06

at work, you would think of them in particularly what have

33:08

I received from them? The second question

33:10

is what have I given to them? So you're looking at

33:12

the other side, Um, this is what I received

33:15

from them, This is what I gave in return. And

33:17

the third question is really the hardest,

33:19

most difficult question, and that is what

33:22

troubles and difficulties have I caused

33:24

them? Um? And that's a very

33:26

difficult question for two reasons. One

33:28

is it's not the kind of thing that we generally notice

33:31

as easily as when other people are causing

33:33

us trouble. And secondly, um,

33:35

it it basically tends

33:38

to share away some of our self image

33:40

that we have as a nicer,

33:42

a good person when we're looking at how we did something

33:45

that was mean or selfish, and so

33:47

we're kind of back to the original parable

33:49

about that wolf. That question is

33:51

about recognizing the ways in which that

33:53

wolf at that moment has basically

33:56

come to the forefront of the way we're

33:58

living. It's not a pleasant thing to see,

34:00

but it's a really important thing to recognize.

34:03

Well, Greg, thank you so much for taking the time

34:05

I loved the book that is out, which

34:07

is called the Art of Taking Actions Lessons

34:10

from Japanese Psychology. Will have links

34:12

to the book on our website.

34:14

I've I've really enjoyed the book a lot, and I've had

34:16

a great time talking with you. Well, thank you, Eric, and

34:18

I've enjoyed being on your show and I've enjoyed our conversation,

34:21

and I wish you a great deal of luck in your

34:23

continued work doing this wonderful show,

34:25

which is really a service to all of

34:27

us out here who get to listen to all

34:29

this wisdom. Well, thank you, take care,

34:31

thank you. Okay, bye bye.

34:50

If what you just heard was helpful to you, please

34:52

consider making a donation to the One you Feed

34:54

podcast. Head over to one you

34:56

Feed dot net slash support