0:00

Hey everyone, it's Eric from the one you feed. Happy

0:02

Holidays to you. Whether you enjoy

0:04

them or you hate them, I hope you're making the best

0:07

of them. As a holiday gift

0:09

and as preparation for the new year, we

0:12

are rereleasing seven of

0:14

the older episodes. If

0:17

you're new to the show, all these episodes are over

0:19

a year old, so you

0:21

may not have heard these yet if you've only been listening

0:23

for a year. I picked

0:25

the episodes because either a I think

0:27

it's a really great episode or B I

0:30

think it talks about behavior change, which

0:32

we're heading into the new year, and that's on a

0:35

lot of people's mind. Speaking

0:37

of which, we are going to try something this

0:39

new year. We're going to try the

0:41

first one You Feed Group

0:43

Transformation program. It

0:46

will be a hundred dollars for a month. We're gonna

0:48

limit it to ten people. We

0:50

will meet online four times

0:52

that month, will discuss tips and

0:54

tricks and different ways to ensure

0:56

that you stay on track behavior wise. You'll

0:59

be able to ask questions of me, and we'll

1:01

do some things where you're paired up as a group

1:03

so that you can get some support outside

1:05

of the calls as well to make sure you get the

1:07

new year off to a great start. So if

1:10

you're interested, just send an email to me Eric

1:12

at one you feed dot net. I

1:14

hope you enjoy these episodes. I listened

1:17

back to a couple of them, and um,

1:20

let's just leave it at we are getting better at

1:22

what we do. In the very first one, I

1:25

sound very nervous and

1:27

I was so. Anyway,

1:30

it's still a great interview. Enjoy

1:32

these, have a happy new year. Thank

1:34

you for listening, and we will talk to you

1:36

soon. Bye. What

1:40

I keep discovering these days is

1:42

that I have to run towards

1:45

this year, and I actually have to sit with

1:47

my anger, and I actually have to look my envy

1:49

right in the eye, and if I can

1:52

be still with it, it eventually

1:54

transforms into something beautiful. Yeah,

2:03

welcome to the one you feed throughout

2:06

time. Great tinkers have recognized the importance

2:09

of the thoughts we have quotes like

2:11

garbage in, garbage out, or you

2:13

are what you think ring true. And

2:16

yet for many of us, our thoughts don't

2:18

strengthen or empower us. We

2:20

tend toward negativity, self pity,

2:23

jealousy, or fear. We see

2:25

what we don't have instead of what we do.

2:28

We think things that hold us back and dampen

2:30

our spirit. But it's not just about

2:32

thinking. Our actions matter. It

2:35

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

2:37

effort to make a life worth living. This

2:40

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

2:42

moving in the right direction, how they

2:44

feed their good wolf. Thanks

2:55

for joining us. Our guest today is

2:57

glenn and Melton Doyle, found

3:00

or of momastery dot com and the

3:02

author of the New York Times bestseller carry

3:04

On Warrior Thoughts of Life

3:06

Unarmed. In the book, Glennon tells

3:09

her story of being a recovering alcoholic

3:11

addict and beliemic in a collection

3:13

of confessional essays that lay bare

3:15

the dark secrets of her past while

3:17

maintaining a welcoming, inclusive,

3:20

and hopeful tone about her current life as

3:22

a mother of three. Her work has been featured

3:24

on The Today Show, Parents Magazine,

3:26

and Reader's Digest. Here's the

3:28

interview. Before

3:31

we get started with the interview, I wanted to remind

3:33

you that I am offering some one on one

3:35

sessions. Confucius said

3:37

that all men's natures are alike, it

3:40

is their habits that separate them.

3:42

So if you're looking for some help with your behavior,

3:45

and habits to help you build a better life. Send

3:47

me an email to Eric at one

3:50

you feed dot net. Thanks,

3:52

and here's the interview. Hi

3:54

Glenn, and welcome to the show. Thank you for having

3:57

me. Yeah, I

3:59

appreciate you taken the time to talk with us. So

4:02

our podcast is called The One You Feed,

4:04

and it's based on the parable The Two Wolves,

4:06

where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson

4:09

and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside

4:11

of us. What is a good wolf which

4:13

represents things like kindness and bravery

4:15

and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

4:17

which represents things like greed and hatred

4:20

and fear. And the grandson

4:22

stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up

4:24

at his grandfather and he says, but, grandfather,

4:26

which one wins? And the grandfather

4:29

says, the one you feed. So

4:31

I'd like to start off by asking you what that

4:33

parable means to you in your life and

4:35

in the work that you do. Well.

4:38

The interesting thing is, my dad used

4:40

to tell me that story all the

4:42

time. Yeah, yeah, so it kind

4:44

of gives me the chills to hear it again. I

4:47

mean, I don't parable

4:49

means something different?

4:51

To me today, as I hear it, I think

4:54

then it always has before. I

4:56

mean, I've always understood

4:59

that to to mean that we

5:01

are to run towards um,

5:03

the good and

5:06

the interesting thing that that I

5:08

keep learning the hard way and over and

5:10

over again is for me, um,

5:14

the good stuff. It's almost like I have

5:16

to get through the bad wolves to

5:18

get to the good stuff. Like I can't

5:21

just run one way or another. Like for

5:23

me, you know, I started

5:26

this whole journey. I kind of got lost to addiction

5:28

when I was very very young, when I was eight years old, and

5:32

and then it morphed. I was a loss to foot

5:34

addiction, and then that morphed into some other addictions,

5:36

and I didn't get out of it until I was twenty six. UM.

5:40

And so this whole past eleven

5:42

years has been kind of trying to unravel all of that

5:45

and figure out just what happened. And

5:47

I really really believe that it

5:50

all comes down to the fact

5:52

that I was uncomfortable with pain, that

5:56

I was so terrified of the hard

5:58

parts of life, um,

6:01

you know, my own anger and sensitivity and

6:03

fear, UM,

6:06

that I felt like I had to numb it all, that

6:08

I just had to numb it all away and run from

6:10

it. And I ran from it for decades. And

6:14

what I keep discovering these days is

6:16

that I have to

6:18

run towards the

6:21

fear, and I actually have to

6:23

sit with my anger, and

6:25

I actually have to look my envy right in

6:27

the eye, and if

6:30

I can be still with it, it eventually

6:32

transforms into something beautiful. You know. I just

6:36

envy is on that list. And I just spent two

6:38

hours writing about envy today and how oh

6:41

gosh, as a creative person, envy can just

6:43

eat you alive. Um.

6:46

But I actually have

6:49

found when I don't run from it, right,

6:51

when I actually run towards that wolf of

6:53

envy and just admit that I'm envious

6:55

and sit with it for a while, I find

6:57

these beautiful gifts inside of envy. Like, for

7:00

example, when I

7:02

was just drinking myself

7:04

to death, I was so incredibly

7:07

envious of writers, to

7:10

the point where if somebody gave me a good book

7:12

and said it was beautiful, I would not read it because

7:15

I was too just brokenhearted

7:18

by this envy for this writer. And

7:20

now I know that, you know, I feel

7:22

like we're envious of people who are already

7:24

doing what we were made to do. And

7:27

so if we kind of use

7:29

that wolf, that envy wolf as sort

7:31

of a arrow pointing us towards

7:34

um, you know, maybe our destiny. That's

7:38

what a beautiful

7:40

thing that can come out of staring that wolf down.

7:44

So I don't know now, I see it as like

7:46

I gotta get I gotta face those those

7:48

bad wolves just so I can get to the good ones.

7:51

I explore on the show all the time. Some

7:53

of those dichotomy is really around UM.

7:56

And you know, your story is very resonant to

7:58

me. I'm recovering how coholic and addict

8:01

and uh, you know, I started into

8:03

being sort of troubled very early

8:05

in life. You know, by the time I was probably about

8:07

the age you describe, I had, you know,

8:10

challenges that were going I mean I wasn't you know, like

8:12

kicking back a six pack of booze at at

8:14

nine, But I was clear, you know, I could look

8:16

back and go, well, there were some things that really weren't working

8:19

out well there. And you talk about

8:21

how I've heard you say that

8:23

you around that age you started

8:26

to feel very uncomfortable and you lost yourself to

8:28

pretending an addiction. And one

8:30

of the things that that we talked about on the show

8:32

a lot, and I'm always interested in is the

8:35

difference, you know, that line between

8:39

positive thinking and delusion, like

8:42

when when are we feeling what

8:44

we need to feel in dealing with it, and

8:46

when are we um So

8:49

that's so one extreme is to sort of do that, is

8:51

to is to wallow in our our

8:53

feelings. And then the other extreme is to deny

8:55

that that they're they're they're at all and

8:57

the world's a wonderful place. And if feels

9:00

like somewhere in between those two things is

9:02

the place to be. And it can be really challenging

9:04

to find that right balance, at least for me.

9:08

But don't you find Yeah, so

9:10

it's like this um continued journey

9:12

of valleys and mountains, right, Like it's you're

9:14

in a valley on a mountain. And

9:17

but I do think that people who won't

9:20

let themselves experience the agony

9:23

being in the valley also

9:26

then don't get to experience sort

9:29

of the ecstasy of the mountain moments. I

9:32

do think that there's a sort of a

9:34

type of person that kind of numbs

9:36

both you know, we call it so

9:39

I call it the word brutiful, like that there's

9:41

this these parts of life that are so

9:43

so brutal and um,

9:46

and they are also beautiful, you know,

9:48

and that that you know, marriage, parenting,

9:51

recovery, health, all of these

9:53

parts of life, you know. I just had an experience

9:55

recently where somebody asked me, tell

9:58

me what talk about what the word brutiful means. I

10:00

am, my sister said a baby.

10:03

Um. And the night before she had the baby,

10:06

we found out that my grandmother was dying, and

10:08

so I had flew to Virginia. My sister

10:10

and I are in several boats, extremely

10:13

close, and so I flew

10:15

to Virginia and I was holding her baby and she

10:17

named the baby Alice, after my grandmother. So

10:20

I'm holding this brand new, a little thing.

10:22

And then that night I get on a plane, I fly to

10:24

Ohio and there I am in the nursing

10:27

home and I'm holding my grandmother Alice's hand,

10:30

and the last thing she says to me is take

10:32

care of my baby Alice. And

10:34

I mean, just within twenty four hours,

10:37

the most one of the most beautiful experiences

10:39

and then one of the most brutal, and I

10:41

just felt both. I just felt

10:43

both so intensely, and

10:45

it was so hard. It was just the hardest

10:48

day, but I was so grateful because I

10:50

just felt human, you know, like I've numbered

10:52

those feelings for so long, because I felt like I couldn't

10:55

handle them, like the pain would be too much and

10:57

the duty would be too much. And

11:00

so to be fully present

11:03

for something so beautiful and for something

11:05

so brutal um

11:07

in twenty four period just felt like

11:10

victory to me. It's so like I'm

11:13

doing this human thing. I've been doing it, you

11:15

know. Um

11:18

So, I don't know I was. I

11:20

was at this uh my marriage sort of

11:22

just imploded two years ago and we're

11:25

working our way back um

11:27

to some honesty and health and

11:30

some good stuff right now. But a

11:32

couple of weeks after the implosion, I was at this grocery

11:34

store checking out, kind of

11:36

like a zombie, and I was in that like depressed moode

11:39

where I hadn't showered for a week and I was really

11:41

bad, and uh, grocery

11:44

checkout woman asked for my I D so

11:46

I handed it to her and she looked

11:48

at it and she said, oh, Glennan, that's a pretty

11:51

name. What does it mean? And I

11:53

said, oh, it's an Irish name. It means a girl from the

11:55

valley. And then I just started

11:57

cracking up because I thought, oh my gosh, that's so ironic,

12:00

Like, you don't know why I'm laughing, but I just figured

12:02

out that this is hilarious because I basically live in the

12:04

valley and I've never put that together before

12:06

that that's actually my name. And

12:08

so she she started, she

12:11

just looked very serious, and she stopped

12:13

me and she said, listen, don't

12:16

knock the valleys.

12:18

She said. Everybody wants to be on the mountaintops,

12:20

but up there the air so thin

12:23

you can barely breathe, and all there is

12:25

to do is stand still and try not to

12:27

fall. But in the valley,

12:30

that's where the river runs, that's where

12:32

all the power is. Oh

12:36

my god, that's so

12:39

beautiful. I felt like I handed dis

12:41

leave this idea and she hand me back this whole

12:44

new identity because the

12:46

truth is that for me, in

12:49

the valley times of my life, like my

12:51

addiction recovery and during

12:54

that time of my marriage falling apart, the hardest

12:56

times are sometimes the times where I glimpse

12:59

the most power and beauty. And

13:03

yeah, it's kind of my goal just to not numb

13:05

it anymore and just sit with it, because

13:07

pain is a really a

13:10

harsh, horrible teacher, but

13:12

a really good one, probably the best one I've

13:14

ever encountered. Right, you

13:16

say, there's a bunch of things, and what you just said

13:19

there a that's probably the first

13:21

chapter in the best wisdom ever dispensed

13:23

in the grocery store chapter of for

13:26

Sure. Um, but you've said

13:29

before that a broken heart is not the end

13:31

of anything, it's the beginning. Yeah.

13:34

I just talked to my kids about that recently,

13:36

actually, about how we're all well,

13:39

it's the same idea. I mean, how we're all

13:41

just you know, so scared, holding

13:43

our hearts so so

13:45

so tight, like you know, they're made of

13:47

glass, and that is if

13:49

anything hurts our heart, we should run from it. My

13:52

experience is that the

13:55

opposite is true. I mean I

13:57

I was just with a friend who was telling me that,

14:00

Um, it was so lonely

14:02

growing up that you know, she was one of the kids that nobody

14:05

played with, and um

14:07

elementary school and then bullied in middle

14:09

school and grew up broken hearted.

14:12

And now she's a mom. And what she does is

14:14

she starts these programs all over the country for

14:17

kids to have these benches where kids who are

14:19

cheesed can sit and find friendships with other

14:21

kids. And that just

14:23

got me thinking about how every I mean, I get to travel

14:25

a lot because I do a lot of nonprofit work,

14:28

and so I get to meet people who are doing really

14:30

good things to change the world, and I

14:32

can't I really can't think of any

14:34

of them who when I sit down with these

14:36

incredible leaders who are changing the world

14:39

for people, don't tell me that their

14:41

passion started with their own broken heart. It's

14:44

always that way, but something

14:46

happened in their life that hurt

14:48

them, and then they used it as fuel to

14:51

help others with the same pain. So

14:53

I don't know. I think, you know, that's another

14:56

wolf, right, broken heartedness

14:58

like envy, and if we run

15:00

from it, we could be missing kind of a

15:02

stepping stone to our best

15:04

life. Well, I think the way, the

15:06

way that I interpret the parable

15:08

in in that way is that it's

15:10

what we It's what we do with all those

15:12

things, right, It's not about just feeling

15:14

the good or the bad feelings, but how

15:17

do we how do we interact with all

15:19

those things in a in a useful way.

15:21

But I have a question for you about

15:23

this idea of um, you

15:25

know, broken heart is not the end of anything. It's the beginning

15:28

or that we find our passion and energy

15:30

from our pain. Because I believe that absolutely,

15:34

because that's certainly been my experience. But I also

15:37

know that there's a reason that lots

15:40

of people numb themselves, and

15:43

there's a lot of people who never find their

15:45

way back up out of that. So what are

15:47

some of the ways that you work

15:50

with that pain so that it becomes transformative

15:53

instead of being something that turns

15:55

you bitter or permanently shuts

15:57

you down. What are what are some of the things that

16:00

allow it to become a positive experience?

16:02

Yeah, So I mean for me,

16:05

I am a words person obviously,

16:07

and I I just there's

16:10

a word that every time I feel really

16:12

really hurt, and it happened to me today, it happens

16:14

to the other time. But every time I feel

16:16

really really hurt, I have this instinct

16:19

where I want to absolutely it

16:21

feels like shutting down, Like I just want

16:23

to shut down completely. Um.

16:27

I want to close my computer and

16:29

never go back up my blog. I want to stop writing. I want

16:32

to circle the wagons. I want to quit what I'm doing. I want

16:34

to get hurt. I want to stop, and I just

16:36

this this thing, this words, these

16:38

words that stay stay open, stay

16:40

open, stay open. The

16:44

words stay open for me are

16:46

some kind of magical

16:49

thing. I don't know. Every

16:52

single time that I've been hurt and

16:55

I have refused to lash out, you know, because

16:57

when we lash out, it's just we're deflecting

16:59

pain. It It's like sometimes I feel

17:01

like pain is like a hot potato, you know, like you somebody

17:04

passes it to us, and we just want to quick as quickly as

17:06

possible, just pass it to somebody else, hurt

17:08

somebody else, and get it out of our own hands. And

17:10

I get that completely. I mean, I do that all the time,

17:13

and I have to apologize for it. But

17:15

when I don't do it, and I just

17:17

force myself to be still, actually

17:20

have that tattoo on my wrist

17:22

constant reminder just be still

17:25

in it and let this pain

17:28

turn into something beautiful. It

17:31

always does if

17:34

I can stay open and let the pain

17:36

sort of. Um,

17:39

I don't know what it does. To tell you the truth, it

17:41

just morphs into widening

17:43

my heart, I guess. And what

17:46

is it, I don't know. It's forgiveness on the other side of

17:48

it, I don't know. What it is on the other side of it. Um,

17:51

But when I sit still

17:53

with it and don't deflect

17:56

it or not or run from it, I

17:58

think that's growth. Nitty growth

18:00

is the right word. Yeah.

18:03

I had a friend tonight I was talking to who is

18:05

feeling kind of I guess lonely

18:08

would be the word. And he said, well, okay, so I'm sitting

18:10

with it now, what what do I do next?

18:13

And I thought that was a really interesting. I

18:15

think the only answer I had was, I guess you

18:18

sit with it more. I'm sure you hear that all

18:20

the time while I've sat with it, and it's still it's

18:22

still here. Yeah. Well, I

18:24

mean service and art are the

18:26

two things to save me again

18:28

and again. I mean, you can't

18:31

just sit forever. I get that, right,

18:35

I mean I think that in

18:37

order to well,

18:40

I'm I given um

18:42

my j others. I'm a completely destructive

18:44

person like that. That's what I did my first

18:46

half of my life, just destroy

18:49

right. So for me to

18:52

have basically a rule for myself

18:55

that I'm going to do

18:58

with my feelings now, things that are couldn't instructive

19:01

to me, that's art and service. So you

19:04

know, when I say something magical happens.

19:06

Usually for me, it's a new esa. It's

19:10

I write something out

19:12

of that experience of sitting with that pain

19:14

and whatever it taught me, and I write something

19:16

and what comes out of me

19:19

after that experience touches a lot of people, and

19:22

that for me seems like, um,

19:24

that it was all worth it. Wow. I love that

19:27

art and service. I would say those are probably

19:29

that's probably mine too, if I boiled

19:31

it down, that would be the two constructive

19:33

ways that I've learned, you

19:35

know, besides feeling the emotion that's

19:38

the other Those are the two other constructive

19:40

approaches that have worked for me. Isn't

19:42

that interesting? Right? So feeling

19:44

it and then doing something constructive

19:47

afterwards, I

19:49

think that's the whole ball game for me. I think

19:51

it's just that over and over

19:53

and over. Yeah. And I think

19:55

there's one other component to it that you talk about

19:58

a lot. You say that the only

20:00

difference between your life in

20:02

the past and now is that you used

20:04

to numb your feelings and hide, and now you

20:07

feel your feelings and share. And I think

20:09

there's some element you've You've got that other

20:11

piece, which is and I think that's maybe the service element

20:13

of it, but it's also just the connection to other

20:15

people. It's that not feeling alone element.

20:19

Absolutely, that's it. I mean, that's

20:22

you know, that's what I experienced at me at

20:24

my meetings the first time when I started

20:26

going to meetings, and I thought, oh my god, I

20:29

thought all of this nastiness

20:31

inside of me and all of the sphere and

20:33

you know, things are ashamed of. I thought this was just me.

20:36

I thought everyone else was fine, and I

20:38

was living this horrible dark existence

20:41

inside. So, you know, the first time

20:43

I went to one of my meetings and sat

20:46

around and listened to people telling

20:48

the truth about themselves,

20:51

I don't know if there's anything more wonderful

20:53

than that, and just

20:55

hearing the words me too,

20:58

me too. Of those have got do. Some of

21:00

them use freeing words

21:03

that another human being can hear. They

21:05

are I I remember my

21:08

memory is so foggy for obvious reasons,

21:10

for so many years, but I remember

21:13

the first time I ever came across a

21:15

recovery book. It was a narcotics anonymous

21:17

book, and I was still years away from

21:19

getting clean. But I remember I read that

21:21

book and I just sat and sobbed because

21:23

I had never heard anybody describe

21:26

what was going on inside me, and I was like, holy

21:28

shit, like that is I could never have

21:30

put it into words. I was so lost and confused.

21:33

But when I read that and realized that other

21:35

people felt that way, it was certainly Again,

21:37

it took me a while to get there, but it was certainly

21:39

the beginning for me of recognizing

21:42

what was happening. Yeah,

21:44

because we don't even need, like

21:47

you said, like, we don't. You don't have to figure myself

21:49

out. Like that's another thing that I've learned,

21:51

Like people don't even need for

21:54

me. I mean, I have this community of people who depend on

21:56

me right now to show up, and that's really all they

21:58

depend on me to do. They don't need

22:00

me to show up and fix anything

22:03

for them or figure out anything. Basically,

22:06

we just need I don't realized

22:08

a while ago that all we need is witness

22:10

it. We just need to witness for each other. We

22:12

just need to say I see your pain. It's

22:15

real, Yes I

22:17

see it, and we need somebody

22:19

else to say that same thing for us, and we don't want anybody

22:21

to snatch it away from us, you know, Like I

22:24

think that's another really big

22:26

mistake we make with each other's

22:29

pain and each other's grief. We we think that we have

22:31

to fix it, or you

22:33

know, a friend tells us about our pain

22:35

and we just want to grab it. You know. It's out

22:37

of love, I think, but we just want

22:39

to take it from her. And and you're

22:42

so uncomfortable with pain. But I think that pain

22:44

is a you know, it's a gift.

22:46

It's hotly, it's just like joy. I

22:49

mean, it's it's a human um

22:52

holy there for a purpose.

22:55

And we don't actually need to snatch it

22:57

from each other. I think we just need to say I see

22:59

it, Yeah, I see it. It's real. I feel that too.

23:02

Isn't this hard? This being human together?

23:38

You had a line that really struck

23:40

me, and I think it's I think it's a useful

23:43

thing to explore, particularly for people who

23:45

might be wrestling with addictions

23:48

of any different sort. And you said that getting

23:50

sober was like recovering from

23:52

frostbite. Oh god, yes,

23:56

and the my coral area to that,

23:58

as I always say, you know, getting sober is

24:00

terrible. Being sober is pretty wonderful,

24:03

but get in there that process is really

24:06

so painful. And but the reason I think

24:08

that's important to talk about is so that people don't

24:11

confuse what that feels

24:13

like with what being sober is.

24:16

No, absolutely, oh

24:18

lord, I mean that's the oh

24:20

the detox those draw I

24:22

mean, you just you just realize

24:24

every single hour why it is you started drinking

24:27

in the first place. I mean, you

24:29

know, you're just like, oh, yeah, that's right,

24:32

all of these feeling and all the stuff you've been numbing.

24:34

And but and and then of course, I

24:36

mean for those of us who've been drinking for decades

24:38

before that, then you have to face all

24:41

we keep drinking so we don't have to think about

24:44

all the awful things we've done too. I mean, it

24:46

is certainly, you know, um,

24:48

physical, and it's a it's addiction, it's

24:51

real. But it's also the second

24:53

we start getting sober, we have to face things

24:55

that we are are uncomfortable,

24:57

and messages we've made and bridges we've burned, and so,

25:00

oh, sweet lord, have mercy

25:02

that those first weeks

25:04

and months and days are horrible.

25:07

And yeah, people need to talk about that because

25:10

it's worse before it gets worse or

25:12

whatever they like, so

25:16

rough, but

25:18

I mean, but oh

25:22

gosh, I just I just I don't

25:24

want people to to let the

25:26

hard part of getting there keep

25:28

them from how

25:30

wonderful it is. On the other side, I

25:32

remember, you know, trying to get

25:35

sober and it would be that bad. And I go, if

25:37

this is what sobriety is, forget it right,

25:39

like yeah, you feel like the smart

25:42

one. Yeah, right exactly. And

25:44

so I it's that it's that that there

25:47

is really another side to that. That is that

25:49

that that early part is

25:51

is um, it's just not indicative

25:53

of what being sober is. And

25:56

I think I've stayed sober. Sorry, I think

25:59

I've stayed sober before. Were just remembering how hard

26:01

it is to get there. Sometimes, Oh

26:03

my gosh, that is enough to do it, isn't

26:05

it? That is enough to keep you sober for

26:07

sure? Just not wanting to go through

26:09

the first few days again. I feel

26:11

like the battles are things that people get

26:13

addicted to. Also, you know, like

26:15

my addictions are kind of like flashy and

26:18

like so dangerous that um,

26:21

they seem so like bold and wild and

26:24

and put me in like a different category of addict.

26:27

But you know, I also feel

26:29

like they run into a lot of people who

26:31

are addicted to unkindness

26:35

and snark and um,

26:39

jealousy and guilt

26:42

and false pride. You know, I think that those

26:47

things, especially unkindness,

26:49

like I think, I think that those things can be UM

26:52

equally destructive in a life and

26:54

can keep people from their

26:57

best lives and from connection just

27:00

as surely as boots can

27:03

and drugs can. UM.

27:05

And I think people use those things. I

27:08

run into people all the time who I feel like are using

27:10

unkindness as a pain deflector yeah,

27:13

so they don't have to they get hurt and then they

27:16

automatically lash out. Um

27:18

they are using They are

27:20

keeping um,

27:22

not allowing pain to transform them,

27:25

just like somebody who's addicted to boost does. Yeah.

27:27

I think there's a lot of a lot of different

27:30

levels of that. And sometimes I feel grateful for

27:32

the type of addictions that I had, because

27:35

it certainly led me to a place that

27:37

I had to do something about it. There was

27:39

there was nowhere else to I mean it was there was nowhere

27:41

else to go with it. Really, I'm

27:44

grateful for that all the time. I

27:46

hear you completely. I was doing

27:48

an interview recently and I said,

27:51

I brought up my addictions, and the reporters

27:53

said, oh, you know, we don't need to go back

27:55

to that, Like your your past, that you're over,

27:57

that that's in the past, let's move on. And so

28:00

mad and I couldn't

28:03

figure out why I was mad, and then I didn't think

28:05

of anything good to say, so I blew it. But

28:08

later I figured out that I

28:10

was just so upset that somebody

28:13

would look at that rock bottom moment I had. I

28:15

was on the bathroom floor. I just I was

28:17

holding a pregnancy cast I it

28:19

was the end of twenty years of being

28:21

lost to student drugs and booze,

28:23

and I was like being faced with

28:26

this idea that I might need to become a mother,

28:28

and it was just wow.

28:31

And um, I

28:33

think of that moment as the best freaking moment

28:35

of my life. Like it,

28:39

I mean, I am grateful to

28:42

God, the universe, who ever was in charge

28:44

around here for forcing

28:47

me to the ground. You know, It's like

28:49

life just wants you to just say

28:51

uncle already, you know, just

28:53

wants you to say, I can't do

28:56

it. I can't do it on my own, I need help. And

28:59

some people never get forced

29:01

to their knees like that, right, and

29:03

so they just spend their whole life, which

29:06

is good enough. And I would I would hate

29:08

that. So I don't

29:10

know. I'm good. I'm so grateful. And the same

29:12

thing happened with my marriage. You know, it's like another

29:16

rock bottom moment. I was like, are you serious, I'm on

29:18

the freaking bathroom for again. Basically it

29:20

was my marriage, and I start I

29:22

didn't have the perspective to be grateful

29:24

for it at the moment, but I am now like we

29:27

were forced our marriage was forced

29:29

to the ground and we had to like deal

29:32

with it. Man, we didn't. We didn't get to do that.

29:34

Okay, we'll just be good enough for fifty

29:36

years, right, you know. And

29:39

I don't think I don't think well, I don't

29:41

think it's possible to to to be

29:43

grateful in those moments. I mean, there's

29:45

one of that's one of those like when you're in a in a bad

29:47

space ands AND's like, well it's a chance to grow. You're kind

29:49

of like I'm going to strangle you,

29:51

like you know, but but it's it's such

29:53

a true thing. I mean, it's one of those things that's interesting, too

29:56

helpful to try and get to that perspective,

29:59

but isn't usually like to

30:01

your point, sometimes the only way through the pain is

30:03

really through the pain. Yes,

30:05

and no one's allowed to tell you. No

30:08

one is allowed to try to give you perspective when you're

30:10

in the middle of your pain. That's my rule.

30:12

Even if everybody knows it's

30:15

all going to be good, and if everybody knows

30:17

it's all happening for a reason, no

30:19

one's allowed to say it until

30:22

the person who's in the pain says it

30:25

exactly. You use the phrase

30:27

a lot, just show up. But I've been exploring the idea

30:30

of bringing our whole selves

30:32

to every situation that we end up in.

30:34

It's it's easy, at least for me to bring

30:37

one person to a

30:39

consulting situation and a different person

30:42

to playing music, or I mean

30:44

not different people, but only certain elements

30:47

of you know of ourselves, and

30:49

you have a You said, the problem with surface

30:51

conversations, which it's easy to get into and all

30:53

those situations, is that you stay

30:55

lonely all the time because

30:57

everybody's surface is different. But

31:00

if you take the chance and a leap of faith and

31:02

you go deeper, you find that at those

31:04

deeper levels were all the same. Yeah,

31:06

And I think the blessing of

31:09

figuring out of that out is that I was

31:11

forced to because I'm just a raging, raging

31:13

introvert. Put me in a cocktail party

31:16

with people talking about the weather, and I can't

31:18

handle it. I mean, my husband and I actually

31:20

have these like hand emotions where he tells me

31:22

that stop, like, you know, she just

31:25

asked about you know, the kids. You don't need to talk

31:27

about your depression or whatever, like because

31:29

I tend to go it's like

31:31

this, you know, this throat. It's

31:34

like making the slash

31:36

across his throat, like no, Gwennan, We're

31:38

just at the playground. It's yeah,

31:41

yeah. So I'm learning

31:44

that there are, you know, places that

31:46

are good for it and are not. But I don't know, I

31:48

find something logical between

31:51

people. Seems to happen when I

31:54

say the thing that I'm really thinking instead

31:56

of the thing I think I'm supposed to say. You

31:58

know, it's feels like going off

32:01

script, you know. It feels like we all have

32:03

to we're supposed to be. I sometimes feel

32:05

like I'm like in a show, Like

32:07

I'm on a in a play and I

32:09

already know what everyone's going to say, and

32:11

then I have to say my lines and all

32:14

day it feels kind of crazy to me, like

32:16

why don't we all just say what we're thinking. I

32:19

like that lady in the grocery store. I mean

32:21

she changed my life, that lady who

32:25

grabbed my I d and told me that little story. Like

32:27

she was going completely off script with me.

32:31

She was just supposed to say, here's your bag,

32:33

haven't I stay? And instead she stopped

32:35

and saw me as a human being and probably

32:37

saw my pain and had something beautiful

32:39

to offer me, and so she did it. Even it was kind of weird

32:42

and truly changed

32:45

my thinking that day.

32:48

So I don't know, I do.

32:51

I do think that we stay on the surface

32:53

with people. You know, we talk about

32:55

our I don't know, religion

32:58

and cars and countertops.

33:01

Yeah,

33:04

and I and that's

33:06

fine. But I do

33:08

think that's why were lonely, because

33:11

those like you said, those serface things are all

33:13

different. But I have learned because I tell my

33:15

story so honestly in

33:18

my books and online. The most

33:21

by far, the most transformative and beautiful

33:23

and holy part of my work is not the writing,

33:25

and it's not the speaking, although I do that

33:28

a lot. It's the reading and the listening because

33:30

I spend part of my day every single day

33:33

reading letters from women all over the

33:35

world. They write to me,

33:37

they tell me their stories, like their stories,

33:40

like the stuff they've never told anyone, And

33:43

that daily practice of just I

33:46

call it just being broken hearted. Like I'm just gonna sit

33:48

here and I'm just gonna be broken hearted for you. I'm just gonna read

33:50

your story. I'm just gonna hold some space

33:53

in my day and my heart to

33:56

just hear you. So how

33:59

that we're brave is is interesting. So you

34:02

started writing, you know, you're.

34:04

One of the things you're known for is how just

34:07

very incredibly honest and upfront you are

34:10

about what's going on in your life. When

34:12

you started doing that, you were

34:15

I believe you were a school teacher at the time. How

34:18

hard was it for you to start doing that?

34:21

Um, did you wrestle with that in the beginning? You

34:23

probably still do, But did you wrestle with

34:26

that more in the beginning, And did you wrestle

34:28

with it particularly because you're like, well, I'm going to go back

34:30

into this school and you

34:32

know, I'm going to work with these people that have just read these

34:34

incredibly intimate things about me. How did

34:37

you deal with that? Yeah, Like my husband said,

34:39

well, I hope this writing thing works out because you've rendered

34:41

yourself completely unemployable, and

34:45

I was kind of like, that's awesome. That

34:48

is awesome. I accidentally can never get

34:50

a job again. That's amazing. Um,

34:53

well, listen, this is how that happened. It actually,

34:57

so I was feeling when I started

34:59

dis jury being with babies. I had so many kids, and I was

35:01

have been sober for um,

35:04

I guess six years, and I was starting to have

35:06

those moments where I remembered why I started drinking, you

35:08

know, like, oh my gosh, life is so hard, and I

35:11

started to get some shame, and that, of course, shame

35:14

is like the kiss of death for addicts. And so I

35:16

did know that art in service art and service,

35:19

art and service, and so I

35:22

really did want to start writing, but I was lazy about

35:24

it. So one day I was passing

35:26

the computer and there was this um thing

35:28

going on on Facebook called the Things,

35:31

and so people were just listing quick

35:33

things about themselves, and so I thought, oh,

35:35

I could do that. I could make a quick list. So

35:38

I made a list, walked away, came

35:41

back to the computer like twenty minutes later, in my inbox

35:44

smashed with so many emails and this

35:46

list had been shared so many times. Well,

35:49

I of course did not read anyone

35:51

else's list before I

35:53

did mine. So this is okay, let me give

35:55

you an example of my number six, because it's

35:57

like etched into my brain forever. So I'm

36:00

sweating right now as I'm trying as I'm telling you this,

36:02

because it was so such an embarrassing situation.

36:05

But my number six was I'm

36:08

a recovering food, alcohol, and drug

36:10

addict, but I still sometimes

36:13

miss a booze in the same twisted way

36:15

that you can miss someone who beats

36:17

you and repeatedly leaves you for dead. Okay,

36:22

here's my friend Lisa's numbers. My

36:24

favorite boot is hummus. Okay,

36:29

that's how my entire list was.

36:32

Everyone, all of the all the numbers were

36:34

like that. No, it

36:37

was. I remember calling my sister and saying,

36:39

how do I get it back? And she she was saying, you can't.

36:41

That's it's out there, it's done. You can just step away

36:43

from the computer. And so it

36:46

was terrifying. But listen, the amazing

36:49

thing was is that when I checked my email box

36:51

and started reading these emails, there

36:53

were some people that I had known my entire

36:56

life, but who were like introducing

36:58

themselves to me for the first time, they

37:00

were saying, I just read your list.

37:04

I can't believe it. My sister is

37:06

so depressed. I wan't know how to help her. I

37:08

just read your list, and I'm struggling

37:10

so much in my marriage. I don't know how to talk to it about

37:12

it. I just read your list and my brother is an

37:15

addict and we're so sad. I mean, it was

37:17

like people telling me that, and

37:19

I was like, I was almost pissed because I was

37:21

like, what are we doing? Why are we even

37:23

calling each other friends? We

37:26

sit together and we're talking about these things that don't

37:28

matter when you're in so much pain and

37:30

I have the same pain, And the next

37:32

got to be what we're here for to

37:35

talk about this stuff? You know? So

37:38

I don't know that's it was an accident and

37:41

I didn't really understand what I was

37:44

doing, um when

37:46

I put that list out there. But that was the day

37:48

that I learned maybe this whole like shameless

37:51

um revealing of myself could

37:54

actually be used to sort of unlock

37:56

people. It absolutely

37:58

can, and yet still sort of a frightening

38:02

thing. I mean, I'm at a point with the show where there's

38:04

a lot of visibility, but it's not what what I

38:06

do full time. I still do some different

38:08

consulting work, and occasionally I'll walk into

38:11

a consulting place and people start me like, I listen to your

38:13

podcast. I heard of your podcast, And my immediate

38:15

reaction is oh shit, Like you

38:17

know, like I I wonder what thing I said

38:20

last time, but what's been to

38:22

your point exactly. The amazing thing is

38:25

that nine times out of ten they go on to say something

38:27

about themselves that I

38:29

never would have known. I would have had no I mean,

38:32

we would have just kept skimming along on the same

38:34

level. And all of a sudden, now most

38:36

of these people are are saying something to me. I'm like, well,

38:38

I didn't pig that. I I didn't see that, but

38:41

the level of relationship

38:43

deepens. It's funny that

38:46

for every nine experiences, the one one

38:49

that is maybe more. I wouldn't even go so far as

38:51

to call them bad, but maybe lukewarm is

38:54

still sometimes enough to for that

38:57

fear to start to seek back in. And

38:59

it's sort of an a conscious going against

39:01

that consistently and saying nope, I'm

39:04

you know, I'm just going to keep doing what

39:06

I'm doing. I'm gonna keep bringing who I am to every

39:08

situation that's right, And if we

39:10

didn't have that one that it wouldn't be breakin

39:14

good point. If everybody

39:16

was just telling us how awesome we were all the time,

39:19

something would be missing in it, right, because

39:21

there has to be a struggle in it. I

39:24

don't know, there has to be sort

39:26

of there has to be a constant overcoming

39:29

as kind of a truth teller and an artist.

39:31

Otherwise, what's the point? I mean, I think that's part of

39:33

the growth for us is to be

39:36

is to be a little scared and do it anyway. So

40:10

I've got just a couple more things. Although I

40:13

could probably do this for about the next four hours,

40:15

and I know that how long?

40:17

How long before the kids go to bed? How much longer do

40:19

we have to have? Well, I don't even know. I'm

40:21

not even in the well.

40:24

I think we're trying to avoid avoid

40:27

you having to put them to bed. So no,

40:29

that's the point here. The point here is that

40:32

we continue until they are sound trying

40:34

to figure out, so then I just get to go out and watch. So how

40:36

long do we have to keep this going forever?

40:39

Balance your desire to do that with Chris's

40:42

desire to go to bed himself here

40:44

shortly. Um so,

40:47

but speaking to parenting, I haven't known

40:49

your story that long, so, but it seems to me like there

40:51

was a point where you wrote something about

40:53

not always enjoying parent and there was there

40:55

was some degree of controversy

40:57

about that. But what I wanted to talk about

41:00

in that where two things that I thought was was really

41:02

interesting. One was you're not enjoying

41:04

certain parts of parenting, which I think is a completely

41:07

obvious statement, like, yeah, it's not it's

41:09

not always fun. I can't even you

41:11

would think, so, yeah, it's It's just completely

41:14

obvious to me. But what you talked about was the double

41:16

guilt about parenting, about Okay,

41:19

I'm not doing it well, which

41:21

I think every parent has, right, I mean, that's

41:24

at least I do on a on a consistent basis,

41:26

as well as now I also

41:29

feel guilty because I'm not enjoying it enough.

41:31

And and I talk on the show a lot

41:33

about this idea of layering suffering

41:36

on top of suffering, like I feel

41:38

bad because I feel bad, like I'm depressed,

41:40

and now I feel bad because I shouldn't be depressed.

41:43

And I was really struck by that. So

41:45

can you explain a little bit about what

41:47

was going on, or it probably still does go on

41:50

with you related to that. Yeah, so

41:53

it things are a little different from me right now because my kids

41:55

are a little bit older there, twelve,

41:57

nine and six right now. But there

42:00

was a time when they were don't check

42:02

my math, because I'm awful at numbers. I'm a words

42:04

girl. But they were little. They were like five, three

42:06

and zero, you know, they were just tiny,

42:09

and I was, you know, like

42:11

a friend stark. I was dripping with children, and

42:13

man, I love my kids like everyone

42:16

does. But there's something about parenting young children

42:18

that just brings the anger. You

42:20

know. It's like you don't even know. I heard somebody say

42:22

once you don't know how angry you are actually you have kids, and you don't

42:24

know how selfish you are actually get married. Like I

42:28

feel that to be true. We're

42:30

not allowed to say that. I don't know why I think that.

42:33

I think we make parenting harder by

42:35

just walking around pretending it's not hard, you

42:37

know. I think the one thing we could do to probably

42:39

make it easier for each other is to admit out loud

42:41

that it gets really freaking hard and

42:44

lonely and scary. Um, not

42:46

because we don't love them, because we love them

42:48

so much and so we're terrified

42:50

that we're doing it wrong and not giving

42:52

them what they need and not good enough for them. Um.

42:55

So yeah, I mean, I don't know. I would be at target,

42:58

and like I don't know if we people with young child them

43:00

with a target. We all with a target, and we

43:03

I would be checking out, and you know, there would be like one

43:06

tanting on the ground. I'd be like moving her forward

43:08

like you do with your luggage and the you

43:10

know, airport line, just like pulling her by her jacket

43:13

forward because she was screaming. And one would you

43:15

know, we have like a bra on his head. And then I'll

43:17

be tangering and you know, I'm just like counting

43:19

the minutes until I get out there. And some woman

43:22

who it was always an older woman would

43:24

always stop me and just say the following words,

43:28

Oh, honey, I just hope you're enjoying

43:31

every moment because it just goes by so

43:33

fast. And now I understand

43:36

I get it, like I get their nostalgia. I already

43:38

get the nostalgia. And my kids are you

43:40

know, they're they're not babies anymore. And I already

43:43

feel it. I get it, but

43:45

it's just an example of what we talked about before, how

43:47

you don't like step into someone's painful

43:50

moment and like shame

43:52

them for it. It really did feel like a shaming,

43:54

you know, because I would just want to say, what part

43:56

of this looks enjoyable right now? Because

43:59

now not only am I stressed

44:02

and sad, but I'm also shamed because

44:05

I feel like I'm not doing this right.

44:08

And now I feel guilty because I feel

44:10

like I'm supposed to be enjoying it too. And

44:12

you know, I think there's a I always knew,

44:14

even when the hardest moments with my little

44:16

ones, I always knew that

44:19

there was something really precious um

44:22

and something to be treasured and cherished

44:25

about most moments, but as sure

44:27

as hell, didn't enjoy a

44:29

lot of it. And I

44:32

think that is okay. It's like this idea

44:35

of, you know, the end

44:37

both of life, that you can

44:40

find um, parenthood and your

44:42

children to be absolutely beautiful and also

44:45

completely brutal. All the best things in my life

44:47

are that way. In my marriage absolutely

44:49

one of the most precious and beautiful parts of my life

44:51

and absolutely one of the hardest. I think there's

44:54

there's no doubt. And it's it's back to that sort

44:56

of very fundamental idea of only

44:59

two trying to recognize or find

45:02

the good parts of something and deny

45:04

that those other parts are there,

45:06

which they absolutely are. And and

45:09

and I think it is that when we start feeling

45:11

bad about the fact that we feel

45:14

just like everybody else does, but since

45:17

we tend to not talk about it, we don't know that

45:19

everybody feels that way. I know now

45:21

we feel so alone and ashamed, and

45:24

I I do. Here's here's

45:26

something that I think is true. It might sound obnoxious,

45:29

and I've never said it before, so I'm just trying it out

45:31

here, but I really

45:35

do believe. I

45:37

mean, I hinted at it before. But I think that

45:40

the fact that I am willing and

45:42

able and often do step

45:45

right into the how hard this is and

45:47

how brutal this is and admit

45:50

to you know, the down moments.

45:53

Um, I feel

45:55

like I am able to enjoy

46:00

and like, um, grasp

46:03

beauty in a way that I'm not

46:05

sure everyone does. I really,

46:07

I mean, I cry at freaking trees.

46:10

I can't sit at church without crying six times.

46:13

I mostly just want to. I can be out

46:16

at dinner and I just want to like stand up and clap

46:18

for everyone in the room because I'm so proud of

46:20

everyone for just you know, being vertical,

46:23

and because life is so hard and we are doing such

46:25

a good job, and just you know, I

46:28

haven't made an intense um

46:32

capacity for joy and beauty.

46:35

And I don't think that's an accident, you know. I

46:37

think it's because I'm also willing

46:40

to just sit in the valley. Well. One of the

46:42

first things I heard in recovery that I

46:44

well, I heard a lot of things, but I do remember that idea

46:47

of you can't selectively

46:49

repress um. You

46:51

can't. It's like you just

46:53

basically you you're gonna

46:55

you're gonna repress everything. You're gonna turn the volume

46:58

down on everything. And I know that's

47:00

true, certainly in my case. So I

47:02

think it's I think you're absolutely right. I think that I

47:06

never get into sort of like, well, I don't

47:08

know how everybody else is doing,

47:10

but I just know for me when I am that

47:12

numb is sort of numb across the board

47:14

is yeah, the bad turns down, but so does

47:17

so does the good. So you do feel that way

47:19

like you feel like the more the deeper

47:21

you get into the sobriety. I like how

47:23

you said the volume was turned up. It does feel

47:26

like that. Doesn't like the color that turned up. The volume

47:28

is turned up. Sometimes the pain is turned up, but

47:31

it kind of feels like, yeah, I mean, I go. But I mean

47:33

I think it's not been a you

47:35

know the mountains and the valleys, you know

47:37

idea that it's I don't think any of this

47:39

stuff is linear. It's not like I just keep

47:41

getting better, keep getting better. It's like it

47:44

goes up, it goes down. And I think there are times

47:47

that I've been more open to life and

47:49

and more open to feeling things, and I do across

47:51

the board, and I think there's other times where I get

47:53

into more of a pattern of sort of just trying

47:56

to turn it all down. Maybe not in the in

47:58

the dramatic fashion as dramatically

48:01

as I used to, but there's plenty of other

48:03

ways to numb or to to

48:05

lessen our ability to feel.

48:07

And I think we it's very easy to use

48:10

personal development and spirituality in that

48:12

way. We had a guest on who called it the

48:14

spiritual bypass, and I was like, that's exactly

48:16

it it's like and and in recovery

48:19

programs that is a I think that's a

48:21

very common one is you know,

48:23

oh, it's all happening for a reason. We tell

48:25

ourselves that so quickly, right, just

48:28

to enough, just okay, God that'll

48:30

you know, or or you know, I think service

48:32

is so important. But I know in

48:35

in recovery there's sometimes it's like a

48:37

bad mood starts to enter the

48:39

room anywhere, and it's like you gotta work with another person,

48:42

right, you gotta you gotta do something like like all

48:44

right, let's just relax a little so

48:46

I can get into that with work or anything. But

48:49

I do think it's a true statement of you

48:51

can't you can't selectively repress things

48:54

and is just refusing

48:56

to try to fix things too fast. We

48:58

had a guest on the of view hasn't come

49:00

out yet, but he said something. His name

49:02

is David K. Reynolds, and he wrote a book

49:05

called Constructive Living, which is um

49:08

it would be interesting to explore in context

49:10

of what we're talking about here, but he has something

49:12

that he said that really struck me. And he

49:15

he's very focused on behavior. You know that

49:17

that you you drive,

49:20

you drive change in your life. By behavior,

49:22

which I think is very much a a

49:25

partially true statement. Um. But what

49:28

he said that for people who don't have

49:30

their behavior under control, they're

49:33

more afraid of feelings because

49:35

those feelings have the ability to just

49:38

lead you way, way off track.

49:41

But that if you if you get to the place

49:43

where you've got your behavior on some degree

49:45

of control, you can feel that

49:47

full range of emotions with less fear

49:50

about what's going to happen. That really

49:52

that really hit me strongly. It's

49:55

that idea I have a little sticky on my Um,

49:57

what little mirror does my computers has

49:59

struck sure liberates, and

50:02

I feel like that is so important

50:06

for me. I think

50:08

that's important for a lot of people who are in you

50:11

know, the creative world or recovering

50:13

people. Oh my gosh,

50:15

I have to stick to my like daily disciplines.

50:18

I think people would be surprised by how structured

50:20

I am actually. Um.

50:23

And it does feel safe

50:26

for being me and

50:28

knowing that I'm going to have a

50:31

wide range of emotions throughout the day. It

50:33

feels safe knowing that they're all

50:35

going to happen within a

50:37

structure that I already have and

50:41

the experiense, Yeah, because

50:44

I think, at least for me, you

50:46

know, if I go way back into those really

50:48

bad years, a particularly

50:51

sad feeling could just lead to you

50:53

know, weeks of even

50:55

beyond the normal destructive behavior, right,

50:58

and that's scary. Whereas now I

51:00

think there's a structure in my life that I go, Okay,

51:02

well I can handle this. I don't. Yeah, I can feel

51:04

that without going on a on a twelve

51:07

day bender. Yeah yeah, But

51:09

isn't it weird because it's like the second you think you figure

51:12

something out, every nothing

51:14

is black and white because it's like you're

51:16

exactly right, and like, yes, we need to feel

51:18

it all. But then in my head, I know

51:21

I can hear my therapist saying, actually, glad, and you're not going

51:23

to feel your way out of anything. You have to just

51:25

do something right, Like you

51:29

have to do what you need to do, regardless

51:31

of how you feel about

51:34

what you need to do. So, um,

51:36

yeah, there's a big gray

51:39

area and it's all a balance of feeling

51:41

and doing. I guess that's such a common

51:43

thing that that's one of the probably the most prevalent

51:45

thing we talked about on the show is that, um,

51:48

you know, you've got to take the phrase that

51:51

that I use, and I probably

51:53

got I'm sure I got it somewhere

51:56

in recovery, as you can't think your way

51:59

in the right act, and you sometimes you have to act your

52:01

way into right thinking. And I'm just

52:03

interested in that idea of how

52:06

thoughts, emotions, and

52:08

actions all interact with

52:11

each other in some extraordinarily complex

52:13

way, but that sometimes we can use

52:15

one of those. If we can get a handle on one of

52:18

those, we can use it as a lever to

52:20

work with the other ones, and different

52:22

that different lever seems to work better for

52:25

different types of things or situations.

52:28

I have to remind myself all the time that I

52:30

am part mind, part body, part spirit,

52:33

and that there's three lives going on every

52:35

single day. And if if it were

52:38

up to me, I would just stay in my mind

52:40

all day and I would go I

52:42

would be back where I was, you

52:45

know, um, because

52:47

the mind is a beautiful and terrifying place

52:49

to live. So I

52:52

have that's part of my discipline of my structure,

52:54

is that every day I can spend I

52:57

don't let myself right all day, and

53:00

that would not be good for me. I let

53:02

myself write for a few hours a day and

53:04

then I am doing some some kind of like

53:07

body stuff my exercise, even

53:09

though it's not my natural want

53:12

to do that. But and I

53:15

have to have some stillness every day because

53:17

of that spirit part. And that's what tends

53:20

to keep me healthy is just remembering

53:22

that I'm a triangle and that I have to address

53:24

each day the three different parts

53:26

of myself. That's a very good way to think

53:28

about it, and that that resonates very much with me.

53:31

And and when I'm doing

53:33

the best is when it's all those things are being

53:35

taken care of, don't you think? And then it's like

53:38

this weird thing like I'll be having this this

53:40

challenge writing and I can sit

53:42

I could sit in front of my computer all day and try

53:44

to figure it out and it won't work. But then

53:46

like if I remember that I have a body and I go

53:49

for a walk or go for a job, like magically,

53:52

halfway through the job, the mind thing

53:54

gets worked out, Like I

53:56

figure out like when you said the lever thing, I'm like, what is

53:58

that? That's exactly right? Like why it's

54:01

not even just I'm addressing my body right

54:03

now. It's like, Okay, I'm going to remember

54:06

I have a body and then my body will help take

54:08

care of this mind thing. I can't figure out.

54:10

It is all so weird and connected.

54:13

It totally is, and and I think

54:16

that's why I'm always when people talk about, like,

54:18

you know, is the is there a mind body connection,

54:21

I'm always like, I'm yes, Like,

54:23

how is that even a question? I've

54:26

been listening to The Smiths and Old Band

54:28

a lot, and one of the quotes is does

54:30

the mind rule the body or does the body rule the

54:32

mind? And I think the answer is

54:34

both. The

54:37

answer is both, absolutely,

54:39

and there's just people who tend to I

54:42

think people who identify most with their mind have

54:45

to work to live

54:47

the life of the body. And

54:50

you know, my husband's opposite. He's an athlete,

54:52

He's an athlete his whole life. He would

54:55

live his whole life in his body. He has to work

54:57

to address the mind part. And

55:00

that's really been interesting and that's been part of the journey

55:02

we've been working on with our but with

55:04

our my own marriage is like we

55:07

live two different ways. Yeah,

55:11

um, and that's just been fascinating.

55:13

I certainly have not even come close to unraveling

55:16

all of that, but it's just a new

55:18

journey. Yeah, I think The amazing part of

55:20

that is when you've got that kind of difference,

55:23

if you can find a way that those differences

55:26

compliment and support each other, it's so powerful.

55:28

And then the flip side of that is when they don't,

55:31

it's so so hard. That's right.

55:33

We're hoping we're going to get to the beautiful

55:36

part. It's going to be just amazing. But right

55:38

now, all the time, totally

55:43

totally amazing, all the time. Yes, exactly.

55:46

We'll let me know when that happens. Right,

55:48

that's right, I'll call you right away. We'll

55:51

get you, we'll get you back on the show and you can solve

55:53

this for all of us once and for all. Yeah, you'll

55:55

have to get me on real quick before it all falls apart

55:57

again. Exactly that five minutes

56:00

it that's all perfect. Well,

56:04

thank you so much. This has been really

56:06

a great time. And like I said, I could, uh, I

56:08

could do it a long time, but we're already

56:10

like double the normal show length, so I'm going to show

56:13

some degree of discipline here, structure liberal

56:16

as you say. I'm just grateful.

56:18

Thank you. It's been a great conversation.

56:21

Yeah, it really has. Thank you so much for taking

56:23

the time to do it and let's keep

56:25

in touch. Let's please do and thank

56:28

you. I just love you so I'm so grateful to be a

56:30

part of it. And just keep doing your work. It's

56:32

so important and so good and so helpful.

56:35

Thank you so much, you too, Thank you. And

56:38

as a reminder, if as

56:44

a reminder, if you're interested in doing some one on

56:46

one work with me, I

56:48

might need a second here. And

56:50

as a final reminder, if you're interested in

56:52

doing some one on one work with

56:56

me and

57:00

you want some laughs, send an email to Eric

57:02

at one you feed dot net. Thanks. You

57:21

can learn more about Glenn and Moulton Doyle and

57:23

this podcast at one you feed

57:26

dot net Slash Doyle