0:00

If you want to do something, make it easy. If

0:02

you don't want to do something, make it hard. Welcome

0:13

to the one you feed. Throughout time,

0:15

great tinkers have recognized the importance

0:17

of the thoughts we have. Quotes like

0:20

garbage in, garbage out, or you

0:22

are what you think ring true. And

0:25

yet for many of us, our thoughts don't

0:27

strengthen or empower us. We

0:29

tend toward negativity, self pity,

0:31

jealousy, or fear. We see

0:34

what we don't have instead of what we do.

0:36

We think things that hold us back and dampen

0:38

our spirit. But it's not just about

0:41

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:43

takes conscious, consistent and creative

0:46

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:48

podcast is about how other people keep themselves

0:51

moving in the right direction, how they

0:53

feed their good Wolfe.

1:10

Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this

1:12

episode is Paul Dolan, Professor

1:14

of behavioral science at the London School

1:16

of Economics and Political Science. He's

1:19

an expert on human behavior and happiness.

1:22

Paul is also the author of the best selling

1:24

book Happiness by Design. Stress

1:27

happens to everyone. It's one of those facts

1:29

of life. I'm sure you can think

1:31

of a time recently when you were very stressed.

1:35

We're working on helping people to better manage

1:37

their stress. If you're signed up for our email list

1:40

already, you know that we recently

1:42

sent something to you about stress in

1:44

your life and we're going to be continuing

1:46

on this topic. And we've got a new resource that's

1:48

coming out soon called Eliminating

1:51

Stress Too. Smart strategies to

1:53

keep you calm and confident. If you're

1:55

already on our email list, no need

1:57

to do anything. The document will come your way

1:59

this week. If you are not on

2:01

our email list, go to one you

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feed dot net and sign up

2:05

in the right hand column and you will

2:08

get the next document about managing

2:10

stress, and the main focus

2:13

will be dealing with our thoughts and

2:15

responsibilities. So if you're

2:17

not on our email list, one you feed

2:19

dot net to get signed up for these free

2:22

resources. And here's the interview

2:24

with Paul Dolan. Hi, Paul, welcome

2:26

to the show. Hello, right, it's nice to be on your

2:28

show. I'm excited to have you on. Your book

2:30

is called Happiness by Design change

2:33

what you do, not how you think, which

2:35

is a big part of the way I view the world.

2:37

So this should be an interesting conversation let's

2:40

start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather

2:43

who's talking with his grandson. He says, in

2:45

life, there are two wolves inside of us

2:48

that are always at battle. One is

2:50

a good wolf, which represents things

2:52

like kindness and bravery and love, and

2:55

the other is a bad wolf, which represents

2:57

things like greed and hatred and fear.

3:00

And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for

3:02

a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well,

3:04

grandfather, which one wins? And

3:06

the grandfather says, the one you feed.

3:09

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that

3:11

parable means to you in your life and

3:13

in the work that you do. Well, why don't you start with an

3:15

easy one? So

3:19

it's so it's interesting. So for me um,

3:22

behavioral science teaches us that so

3:25

much of what we do is driven by context

3:28

and environment and situation, and

3:30

a lot less by cognition

3:33

or you know, by by thinking and by

3:35

the person that we think we are. So so for

3:37

me, I start, I start thinking about that parable in terms

3:39

of it's not really two

3:41

selves, there's just context that activate

3:44

those different selves. Right, So,

3:46

so we can design environments, organize our

3:48

life and our day in our society in ways that make

3:50

it easier for us to be kind,

3:53

or we can do it in ways that make it easier for us to be

3:55

greedy. So it would

3:57

be more about which of those selves are at

4:00

evated in which environments,

4:03

and less about themselves themselves.

4:06

I love that answer. It's a great answer, and it ties

4:08

in very much to a lot

4:10

of the themes in your book. Let's start

4:12

kind of at the beginning, because you make a distinction

4:14

early on that you know, there's

4:17

traditionally been two views of the good

4:19

life, right, one that we would consider

4:21

perhaps more hedonic,

4:23

right, a life of pleasure, contentment, positive

4:26

feelings, and another, I think the phrase

4:28

is more you demonic, right, which is

4:30

a life that is more well lived

4:32

and meaningful. And your point is really

4:35

we need a balance of both. That is absolutely

4:38

right, although it's a little subtler than that. So

4:40

in terms of how we measure happiness,

4:43

and he always done the former, that hedonic

4:45

you know, pleasure and pain by

4:48

asking people questions about their pleasure

4:50

and pain in the moments, in the

4:52

experiences of their lives. Um, yet

4:54

the daimonic, isn't it? He always

4:57

asked, as whether your life has meaning,

4:59

whether your life has purpose, whether when

5:01

you reflect upon the narrative of yourself

5:04

you feel like it's been worthwhile. So

5:06

what I argue is that actually there's no reason, in

5:09

principal andy practice why we shouldn't

5:11

be placing purpose on the same

5:13

experiential footing as we place

5:15

pleasure. Happy

5:17

life is one that contains a

5:20

balance between those twin

5:22

sets of feelings and the balance that I think this is really

5:25

important, that's right for the individual. I try

5:27

not to be too prescriptive in the book. I think a lot of

5:29

a lot of happiness books, you know, generally try to tell

5:32

people that there's a one size fits all way

5:35

to live, and I just want people to work out for themselves

5:37

what that balance is exactly. So

5:40

you say that a large

5:42

part of how you feel is determined

5:44

by what you do. Can you elaborate

5:46

on that, yes, So, actually, I mean there's the production

5:49

process of happiness. So I'm trained as an economist,

5:51

although I've kind of morphed more into a psychologist over

5:53

the last decade or so, and so I can't help but kind

5:55

of at some points revert back to my econ

5:57

training and if you're if your company could

6:00

using widgets. Right, you don't just obviously have

6:02

widgets. They have to be produced by some process,

6:05

and that production process is a process

6:07

that converts the inputs land,

6:09

labor, capital into widgets. And

6:12

so you make more widgets when you when you have more

6:14

two things, One you have more inputs or

6:17

you have a more efficient production process.

6:20

So analogously, in happiness,

6:22

I talk about happiness being. People have always

6:24

just really spoken about the inputs income,

6:28

relationships, unemployment, sex,

6:30

all these things as if they are directly

6:32

related to the to the output of happiness.

6:34

But there's a production process in the middle that

6:37

converts those inputs into happiness. And

6:39

that production process is attention.

6:42

So whether and how and

6:44

in what ways to what extend money,

6:47

marriage, employment, and sex

6:50

show up in your happiness depends

6:52

on how much attention you pay

6:54

them. Right, So if you take income,

6:56

for example, you know it's true that money would make

6:58

people very, very happy if they spent all their

7:00

time thinking about how much money they had when they got rich.

7:04

But they stop paying attention to money and pay attention

7:06

to all the other things in life that largely

7:08

have nothing to do with how rich they are. So

7:11

so in the sense of happiness

7:13

being in what you do, it's in what you

7:15

pay attention to, and

7:17

and a lot of our time, not not all of it, of course,

7:19

and we can talk about more about that if you wish, But a

7:21

lot of our time is is paying

7:24

attention to, you know, the conversations that I'm

7:26

having with you now, or paying attention to

7:28

you know, your commute to and from work,

7:30

or the time that you spend with your family and friends, or that you

7:33

know, the listening to music, or you

7:36

know, all the things that draw your

7:38

attention or resources towards

7:41

them in ways that convert the

7:44

puts into happiness and in a lot

7:46

of cases misering. And so another

7:48

way of saying this, I think, would be to say,

7:50

it's not just what's happening to us,

7:53

right, It's it's the attention we pay

7:55

to them and the perspective we take to those

7:57

things that that are happening.

7:59

And you talk an awful lot

8:01

about attention, and furthermore, you

8:03

talk a lot about how we

8:06

spend a lot of time thinking about what

8:08

we think would make us happy. We think

8:10

it's more money, we think it's this thing or that

8:12

thing, and we pay precious little time

8:14

to what actually does make us happy,

8:16

and that we would be better served to pay attention

8:19

to what actually causes our happiness

8:21

in life and then pay more attention to those

8:24

type of things instead of diverting

8:26

our attention to things that we believe may

8:28

someday somewhere provide happiness.

8:30

That's absolutely right. X So if you think about I mean

8:32

so, the things that you pay attention to in a decision

8:35

will often not be the things that matter in the experience

8:38

of one of those choices. So

8:40

if I'm thinking about, you know, choosing between two jobs,

8:43

right, the most obvious dimension

8:45

on which I will compare them as Saturday, it's

8:48

actually the most It's actually not only the most obviously for me,

8:50

it's most obviously for other people. Right. They expect

8:52

to compare the jobs on the basis Saturday. Right,

8:54

they expect me to take the high paying job. And

8:57

actually, if I've done, I've got a real you know, kind

8:59

of inful process of explaining

9:01

to them, why, you know, I think I might have better

9:04

colleagues or a shorter commute in the in the lower

9:06

paying job. So I'm kind of almost almost compelled

9:08

in some way to take the job that

9:10

pays more money because I pay attention to that attribute

9:13

in the decision, and I think I'm going

9:15

to pay attention to that attribute in the experience.

9:18

Right, So, the job with a longer commute

9:20

that pays more money, I'm gonna think that's okay, That longer

9:22

commute is going to be compensated for by the fact

9:24

that I'm richer. But actually, once you take

9:27

the job and you experience your life day to day,

9:29

moment to moment, that commute becomes very

9:32

very painful, very attention

9:34

seeking. And the fact

9:36

that you could have had another

9:38

job that would have paid a little bit less with a shorter

9:40

commute is kind of that that income

9:42

difference becomes irrelevant. So

9:45

in the experience of your life, you kind of

9:48

you pay attention off to to different things that

9:50

matter to you when you make a decision. And

9:52

moreover, we're not very good at predicting

9:55

the things that will draw attention to themselves in

9:57

those experiences, um

10:00

and and so that's one of the fundamental

10:02

reasons why we make quite a few mistakes and errors

10:04

in our decisions that lead us to not be as

10:06

happy as we might otherwise be. Right, because we've

10:08

got two things happening here. One is that

10:11

as you said, we're not very good at predicting what

10:13

will make us happy, and we

10:16

have to talk about the adaptation process

10:18

in order to fully understand that. Do you want to

10:20

explain that the Yeah, So when something

10:23

new happens, something novel, surprising

10:25

and interesting, uh, you

10:28

know, like like a pay rise, or or a

10:30

new date, or or a new house, or a new car,

10:32

or you know it pays it or

10:34

actually bad things as well. Right, So, some adverse

10:36

health effects, for example, they

10:39

we pay attention to them because there novel

10:42

and attention seeking. Um.

10:44

But something that initially starts off novel and attention

10:47

seeking soon becomes many things,

10:49

not all things. Many things become kind

10:51

of old and established. Right. So, so when

10:53

you're we can take an adverse event, when

10:55

you experience an extreme health

10:57

loss, maybe you become a

11:00

paraplegic. Now, that is

11:02

very attention seeking. Obviously when

11:04

it first happens, it's still it's

11:06

still attention seeking for the rest of your life, but

11:09

it's not as attention seeking after a month,

11:11

a year, and ten years as

11:13

it was after the first week. You essentially become

11:15

a part time paraplegic, right,

11:18

so where your attention is only drawn to your

11:20

paraplegic when your attention is

11:22

drawn to it when you're trying to gap a curve, or when you know there's a kind

11:24

of environment that makes you draw attention

11:26

to it. The rest of the time kind

11:29

of get on with life and and live it, by and large

11:31

in very similar ways to people without

11:33

paraplegic. And we're not very good at forecasting

11:35

that. Right. We imagine that, oh,

11:38

it will just just be awful, awful for now

11:40

and forever. Um were equally

11:42

imagine that when in the lottery

11:44

will be pleasurable for now and forever.

11:49

But the now doesn't last for you

11:51

know, the now doesn't last forever. The now,

11:53

the now quickly dissipates because

11:56

we stopped paying attention to um

11:58

many of the good things and bad things

12:00

that life throws us. And that's actually

12:03

highly adaptive for us as human

12:05

beings to get used to stuff, you

12:07

know, because otherwise we might be living in quite

12:09

considerable to them all if we if we didn't. And

12:52

here's the rest of the interview with Paul

12:54

Doland. The positive side of it, right,

12:56

is the psychological immune system, right that

12:58

we get used to think and you you put a

13:00

model in there that I had never really heard

13:03

of before, and I'm certainly familiar with adaptation,

13:05

but you talked about a model of adaptation

13:08

called the area model, which

13:10

stands for you know attention. You

13:12

know, something grabs your attention, you

13:14

react to it, e. You explain

13:16

the event, and once you can explain it, then

13:19

you adapt to it. And I thought that was a

13:21

really good way to look at it. I properly

13:23

referenced that. That's too Dan Gilbert

13:25

who wrote someboding on happiness, and Timothy Wilson

13:27

who's at University of Virginia. So that's

13:29

that's there, that's their model. But obviously,

13:32

for for me, what's key about that is the A bit

13:34

is the attention that something you know

13:36

draws draws itself. And as you absolutely you

13:38

rightly say that once we can make sense

13:40

of of why something has

13:42

happened, um, we can kind

13:44

of get used to it. Right. So um, A

13:47

very good example is when we

13:50

split out with a partner, especially if we get

13:52

dumbed. Right. If you got that is

13:54

that is pretty hot. As though there's no doubt that

13:56

those first few hours, tasting sometimes

13:59

weeks are are pretty awful, but very

14:01

rarely months and years, right unless

14:03

you unless you have unless you

14:05

know, unless it's some kind of other maybe

14:08

mental health issues going on. Most

14:10

people get over people and

14:14

moreover find someone better next. Right,

14:17

So so you don't get very many people

14:19

who say, my current

14:21

girlfriend or wife wisband isn't as good as the one

14:23

I had before, right, because

14:25

it doesn't actually doesn't actually matter whether they are

14:27

or not. Our psychological commune system tells

14:29

us that they're better because it's

14:32

our way of making sense and coping

14:34

with the world. Great. What was interesting me

14:36

about that is also explains why

14:39

not knowing the answer

14:41

or uncertainty in situations

14:44

can be so difficult, and why once

14:46

we have certainty, you know, that's the we

14:48

can explain the event in that model, then

14:51

we can adapt to it. But while it's all kind

14:53

of up in the air, it retains

14:55

its novel because we can't answer the question

14:58

exactly exactly. It's almost you know that, you

15:00

know, it is actually often better to

15:02

have tried something and it and

15:05

it gone wrong than not just tried

15:07

it at all, because they're not trying it at all and sort of nag

15:09

on, you know, sort of nag in your mind about

15:11

what might have happened had you done it, um

15:14

and so that unresolved

15:16

uncertainty is very attention seeking,

15:18

whereas the resolution makes it

15:21

easier to cope with. And that's why we see

15:23

in the most happiness literature that separation

15:26

when you break up is very attention seeking, a misery

15:29

making. You only start getting happier

15:31

again when you get divorced, because

15:33

because because it's it's it's final,

15:36

it's over, and I can move on. I

15:38

can attest to that. Um,

15:41

you say, the key to being happier is to pay

15:43

more attention to what makes you happy and

15:45

less attention to what does not.

15:49

That's pretty straightforward. But I know,

15:51

I know. That's why I was laughing when you said it. It It was

15:53

like, what are we having some sort of statement

15:55

of the bleeding obvious? You know, it's it's

15:58

a but what I you know what what was fine is

16:00

actually I think a lot of a lot funny.

16:02

But I think a lot of the insights that I've drawn

16:05

in the book are actually really obvious. What

16:07

the really interesting question is why they're so overlooked?

16:10

Right? Right? It's not it's not actually that. Then. You know,

16:12

if people say to me when I say what things you

16:14

know to be happy? I say, you know, listen, to

16:16

more music, go outdoors, spend tithing, more people,

16:19

you like being with, help other people. And

16:21

they say, well, that's obvious. I said, well, why

16:23

why how much of it you're actually doing there? If

16:25

it's bloody obvious, why aren't you doing

16:27

more of it? And and so that the answer

16:30

to that question, which is more interesting point, is that

16:32

we make it. We also make it very hard for ourselves

16:34

to do things that would make us happy and pay attention to those

16:36

things. We make it easy for us to do things

16:38

that repay attention to that don't make us feel

16:40

so good, right right, And to take

16:43

that, you know, the next direction is just you

16:45

know, we're talking about changing what you do. And

16:47

at the same time, you see, if you can't change what you

16:49

do, then change what you pay attention

16:52

to in the experience. So

16:54

let's that one that one could use a little

16:56

bit more unpacking

16:58

than the last statement, for sure. Yeah, can

17:00

I just say so?

17:03

So we're into so the so the

17:05

the U the UK and the U S sub title

17:08

of the book of both Happiness by Design. The

17:11

UK subtitle and what was going to

17:13

be the U S subtitle is finding

17:15

pleasure and purpose in everyday life. And

17:18

just as we were about to go to print. My

17:20

US editor said, you know what, those Americans.

17:23

I was easy to say that because she was in the U s US

17:25

American. She said,

17:28

you know, we need something more directed. We

17:31

can't we just be told what to do, so figure

17:33

it out ourselves. Here. That's why that is podcast

17:36

there we have it exactly exactly.

17:39

So so the U subtitle became change

17:41

what you do, not how you think? Right, So

17:44

so that was that was quite an interesting insight I

17:46

thinking to the cultural differences, but

17:48

it isn't exactly that. Uh,

17:50

if we if we take a step back to answer your question,

17:53

is that if you read any of the self help genre,

17:56

they will nearly they will nearly always without exceptions,

17:58

say, you know, change how you think right?

18:00

Change you know, I positive? Whatever? Well

18:02

I kind of yeah, I've worked that out where I bought self help. But

18:05

I want I want you to give you some insight in ours as you can do that, and

18:07

of course you can't. And that's why

18:09

their self help industry is so lucrative, because the

18:12

likelihood of buying a self help book is much

18:14

greater if you bought one in the last twelve months. So

18:17

clearly they're not they're not working. They're working

18:19

at selling books, but they're not working at working at

18:21

changing people's lives. And it's because

18:23

they don't give you And come back

18:25

to my to the previous question, that really simple

18:27

insight is if you want to do something, make it easier.

18:30

They don't give you the tools that

18:32

enable design your environment, to

18:34

organize your day in your life in ways

18:37

that make doing the things that would make

18:39

you happier easier. That's actually

18:41

the fundamental challenge. So most of

18:43

the time we can actually change what we do. Right, So

18:45

even incredibly busy people like me, I mean,

18:47

I think I'm one of the busiest person you know

18:50

ever. You know, I've I've got I've got I've got a

18:52

busy job. I'm ahead of the department now

18:54

at the NFC. Uh. You know, I'd

18:56

all these great academic things, I've got family,

18:58

but I still managed to go to the gym five

19:00

times a week without exception. People

19:03

say to me, I don't have time to do that, always

19:06

like you don't have time, you don't make time.

19:08

So I've organized my diary in a way that

19:11

five gym sessions a week for forty five

19:13

minutes to an hour just always I

19:15

just always do them, Just always do them.

19:18

Um. And I made it easy for myself by

19:20

having a gym that's nearby by, having a training

19:23

partner that I go to the gym with not all the time,

19:25

but much of the time, and we just have an

19:27

automated habitual system

19:29

that makes it easy for me to do that. Yeah.

19:32

I have said this on the show several times, but I think

19:34

for me that I don't have time to exercise.

19:37

Excuse when out the window and I realized that,

19:39

you know, then President Obama exercised,

19:42

you know, nearly every day, and I was like, there's no way

19:44

on earth I can claim to have be

19:47

busier or have more important things going

19:49

on than he does. Right, So, like that excuse

19:51

is gone. You know, it's a matter of prioritization.

20:14

So let's talk about designing

20:16

our environment, because that's a big piece of

20:19

what you talk about throughout the book, which

20:21

is you know, you're more likely

20:23

to do something if it's easy to do so.

20:26

And I think we all underestimate I

20:29

know people that I work with a lot and coaching underestimate

20:31

this. We all think it's all about willpower

20:34

and how dedicated we are, and

20:36

so much of it has to do with design

20:40

and with our environment and crafting

20:42

it in a certain way. So let's talk a little bit more about

20:44

that. What are some of the things we can do

20:47

or what are some of the maybe ways to think

20:49

about structure and our environment so that

20:51

we can make the changes we want to make

20:53

to how we behave and also for

20:55

happiness. It's much less

20:57

about will power more about design power, because

21:00

you know, actually we'll it's hard work, isn't

21:03

it. Exhibiting will will power

21:05

all the time forces

21:08

to do something. Let's stop yourself doing it. So so what

21:10

you want to do is you want to try to create habit

21:12

loops, and so we

21:15

we we see from some of the health behavior change

21:17

in literature that takes about two months

21:19

to change the habit right, So it needs

21:21

to be doing the same thing repetitively for it to

21:23

be embedded and coded. So

21:26

often what's interesting is a lot of times when people try

21:28

to change their behaviors in whatever

21:30

they mean, they don't leave it long enough before

21:33

they stop or start again. Right. So

21:36

New Year's resolutions, I don't have any

21:38

of those last at the end of February, probably probably

21:40

none, very few. So

21:43

you've got to try and so the way that you the

21:46

way that you make that habitual

21:48

process that then makes life easier for you subsequently

21:51

more likely to kind of embed itself,

21:53

is by making it

21:55

more likely. Of course, it's obviously to say that those

21:57

behaviors will be carried out

22:00

on the daily basis or whatever that

22:02

you intend to do them, and that requires

22:04

you to have a very clear implementation

22:08

plan for your intentions.

22:10

It's called implementation and intentions in the academic

22:13

literature. So it's it's it's it's the way

22:15

in which you make the

22:19

the bigger plan more manageable

22:21

and discreet. Right. So it

22:23

was actually used by Barack Obama you mentioned,

22:25

you mentioned him earlier in

22:28

a different context to get the vote out by

22:31

turning by asking people. You don't ask people are

22:33

you going to vote in the general election? Right,

22:36

that's a there's a there's actually a lot of behaviors

22:39

embedded in voting. Right. You've got the

22:41

first lead acts, you've got to find the polling station,

22:43

and you've got a notice. Right, So so the questions

22:45

will be, you know, when, when are you going to vote?

22:48

When in the day, how are you going to get there? Are you going to

22:50

go with somewhere are you going to go on your own right,

22:52

So you've got a series of implementable

22:54

plans that makes intentions

22:56

more likely to happen. So with any

22:59

behavior that you want to changing your daily life,

23:01

you need to have those plans in place. And those

23:03

plans are

23:05

more effective when drawing

23:08

on the lessons from the

23:10

behavioral sciences, which tell us some

23:12

things that are really quite obvious, like we

23:15

care about what other people around us are doing, right

23:18

with social animals, and we take

23:20

accused of other people. You're more likely

23:23

to do something if

23:25

other lots of other people around you are doing it.

23:28

Um, You're you're more likely to

23:30

do something if you if you make a commitment

23:33

or a public promise to do it. Um,

23:35

You're you're more likely to do

23:37

something if you have cus in your environment that

23:40

make it more. Like So

23:43

if you take put even just those three things two

23:45

together, um, you might

23:48

if you want to go to the gym or exercise more, leave

23:50

your trainers by the bed when you get up. You

23:52

might have a gym buddy that you pre

23:54

commit to meeting at the gym at the same

23:56

time every day or week in

23:59

order to train with them. Um.

24:01

And you might join a running

24:03

group or something that makes that behavior more likely.

24:06

So all of these things make the implementation

24:08

of the intention more likely to

24:11

come about. You use four terms

24:13

in relation to this a little bit. You talk about priming,

24:16

default, commitments, and norms.

24:18

Let's walk through each of those real quick. Okay,

24:21

So I just I actually just very rapidly went

24:23

through three of them in that example. So

24:25

so the priming is a

24:28

queue in your environment that makes your behavior more

24:30

likely. So the trainers by the

24:32

bed um

24:34

is just an example. You kind of fall over them, right, so

24:36

you can't sort of help but help

24:38

but see them, or you might have you

24:40

might have a picture of you in the gym

24:43

on your screen saver. Mm hmmm.

24:45

Actually, one of the things I did in a different my

24:48

editor in the UK, I've got any example in the

24:50

book, I say, if you want to spend less online

24:52

shopping whatever, change your banking passwords,

24:54

don't spend so much money and

24:57

uh, And she actually did that, she said some

24:59

bird and of it says the past words

25:01

that don't spend so much money, and she reckoned

25:03

it works. I mean, even just knowing we can

25:06

actually fool ourselves, even though we know we're trying

25:08

to fall ourselves right. So that's how

25:10

that's how powerful some of these effects can be. Typing

25:12

in, don't spend so much money, but

25:16

the margin stops you spending so much money,

25:19

right, So that's you in your environment. So

25:22

then the faults and commitments

25:24

are actually quite similar. I mean I

25:26

I just maybe pay attention

25:28

in the interest of time to the commitments. Thing is

25:31

that you you you're just much

25:33

more likely to do something when you make a

25:35

public promise to do it. So

25:37

if you if you said

25:40

on air something that you're going to do over

25:42

the next and make it a short period and discreete

25:44

behaviors, that you're going to go to the gym

25:46

every day for the next week or something, if you

25:48

say that publicly on air, you know,

25:50

you're just a little bit more likely to do it because you don't want to

25:53

not do something that you've promised too. And

25:56

then the norms, as I say, this is really

25:59

such a vasive effects. We really do take

26:02

our cues for action from those around

26:04

us. I mean, you know, you're you're you're

26:07

walking down the street and everyone's looking up.

26:09

What do you do look up? Right? I mean

26:11

it's it's it's just you're just you're just our

26:13

cute to do what others do.

26:15

So you want to create a

26:17

network of people who engage

26:20

in the behavior that you want to

26:23

Lots of lots of very good data from very robust

26:25

studies, over many contexts

26:27

and years showing that um,

26:30

not just not just our friends effects

26:32

what we do, but our friends friends

26:34

and our friends friends friends. Right,

26:38

So you're you're more likely to

26:40

quit smoking if your friend quit smoking, if

26:42

their friend quit smoking, and their friends friends

26:44

quit smoking. All of those have a direct

26:46

effect, and you're likely for the quit smoking. Yep,

26:50

we're near the end of time here. But you've

26:52

you've kind of tied all this up into a framework

26:55

to look at you can't deciding, designing

26:57

and doing And I think we've talked through

27:00

to those pieces a little bit. But can you maybe

27:02

um give a quick overview

27:04

of how of that framework and how to put it

27:06

into use. Yeah, so, I

27:08

actually we talked a lot about design, right, I mean,

27:10

which is the which is the principles of organizing?

27:13

This is a really and this is I can't I

27:15

can't emphasize this in aferica. I know it's a really

27:17

basic insight, but if you want to do something, make

27:20

it easy. That is really if you don't

27:22

want to do something, make it hard. That's

27:25

and that's you know, and and that that is if

27:27

you do that. If you can do that, you're you

27:29

know, a long way towards achieving your goals.

27:32

Um, we did the design bit. The

27:34

do bit is really where we started

27:37

in a way of paying attention to things that make

27:39

you make you feel good. It's remarkable that, you

27:41

know, music therapy has been shown to be hugely

27:43

effective across the whole range of health conditions,

27:45

mental health conditions, physical health conditions. Music

27:48

literally lights up your entire brain. Everybody,

27:51

I would say, without exception, is happier when

27:53

they listen to music they enjoy. So

27:55

so just do it right, design ways

27:58

of listening to more music into your life. Um.

28:00

The deciding bit, I think is the really maybe

28:03

one of the more more interesting bits, because it's where

28:05

sometimes we have this idea of

28:08

the person that we think would like to be.

28:10

The number of journalists, for example, that I've met who

28:12

say they're going to write a novel, right, don't they all

28:14

say that? Right? Well, most of them done,

28:17

so I don't know actually

28:19

how many of them actually really want to, but they

28:21

say that because they think that's what a journalist should

28:23

do. And so the deciding bit is

28:25

that really is obviously the first of the three ds,

28:28

but it's actually, you know, probably the most critical bit

28:30

in a way, because you need to be absolutely

28:32

clear that this story that you

28:34

tell yourself about the person that you want to

28:36

be instead is actually going to play itself

28:39

out in you feeling better and

28:41

happier. So I'll just make a plug

28:43

for the second book which will be coming next year,

28:45

which is called The Narrative Trap, which

28:47

is actually going to be about the stories that people

28:49

live in that often get in the way

28:52

of them leading happier lives. We tell

28:54

ourselves that we should be richer and more successful

28:56

and married and all these things, when actually

28:59

for some people that things are good, but the

29:01

chasing of them is often quite harmful for

29:03

many people. Yeah, exactly, I think that gets

29:06

to um you you mentioned it

29:08

briefly, and it was that, you

29:10

know, this idea of the

29:13

experiencing self, which is the part

29:15

of us that that can experience and

29:17

enjoy happiness versus the evaluating

29:20

self or another word for the evaluating self, right,

29:22

is kind of the narrative self. It's that it's

29:24

the it's the stories we're telling ourselves

29:26

all the time, and and your basic um

29:29

piece here is pay attention to what

29:31

actually makes you happy. Track your

29:33

time, to watch what you're doing. Did

29:35

that? Did I enjoy that? Did I not enjoy that?

29:37

And move away from our beliefs about

29:40

what will make us happy into our actual experience

29:43

of what does you've actually read

29:45

the book? Eric, the whole darned thing, the

29:49

whole thing. You better. You're better

29:51

explaining it than I have. All

29:54

right, Paul, Well, thank you so much for taking

29:57

the time to come on. I know we're kind of up against our

29:59

our time raam here, so I appreciate

30:02

the time, and let me know when the next book comes out and we'll

30:04

talk again. We will do listen, Thank

30:06

you so much. One of the things I talked about in the book is how you

30:08

know the scarcest resource that we have is

30:10

our time, and you know we have We're

30:12

now half an hour close as to death and we were before

30:15

we started. Um. I think I

30:17

think this has been a very pleasurable and purposeful

30:19

use of that half an hour. So thank you very much, me

30:21

too. All right, take care, Paul, cheers, bye,

30:23

Le's see you bye.

30:41

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