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Net. I hope to meet you in this special

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program very soon. I'm all

1:34

for goals, I'm all for setting high targets,

1:37

but I think mindfulness of being

1:39

more present as a central key to

1:41

wellness as a whole. Welcome

1:51

to the one you feed throughout time.

1:53

Great tinkers have recognized the importance

1:55

of the thoughts we have. Quotes like

1:57

garbage in, garbage out, or you

2:00

are what you think ring true. And

2:02

yet for many of us, our thoughts don't

2:05

strengthen or empower us. We

2:07

tend toward negativity, self pity,

2:09

jealousy, or fear. We see

2:12

what we don't have instead of what we do.

2:14

We think things that hold us back and dampen

2:16

our spirit. But it's not just about

2:19

thinking. Our actions matter. It

2:21

takes conscious, consistent and creative

2:23

effort to make a life worth living. This

2:26

podcast is about how other people keep

2:28

themselves moving in the right direction, how

2:30

they feed their good wolf. Thanks

2:47

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

2:49

is Paul McCarroll. He's an O c D

2:51

and anxiety specialist, therapist

2:53

and coach and mental health trainer from

2:56

County Antrim in the North of Ireland. Paul

2:58

also has a unique backs worry where he works

3:00

as a trainer in the same hospital where

3:03

he was once an impatient. He uses

3:05

this story to inspire hope, reaffirm

3:08

that recovery is possible, helping

3:10

clients to stop struggling and start

3:12

living. Hi, Paul, Welcome to the show.

3:14

It's a pleasure to be here. Eric, thanks

3:17

for having me. Yeah, you're welcome. I'm excited

3:19

to have you on. You and I have known each other

3:21

a number of years since very early

3:23

when I started the show, and you

3:26

were the person that introduced me to

3:28

acceptance and commitment therapy, which you

3:30

know, as we talked about before the show. I've had a number

3:33

of the founders on and has been

3:35

very influential in the way

3:37

I view the world, or even to say

3:39

it slightly differently just aligns with

3:41

the way I see the world, and I know you're a

3:43

practitioner of that also, So we're

3:46

going to get into all that as well as your

3:48

journey. But we're gonna start like we always

3:50

do, with the parable. There's a grandfather

3:52

who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life,

3:54

there are two wolves inside of us that are always

3:57

at battle. One is a good wolf,

3:59

which are resense things like kindness and

4:01

bravery and love, and the other is

4:03

a bad wolf, which represents things

4:05

like greed and hatred and fear. And

4:07

the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second.

4:10

He looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather,

4:12

which one wins? And the grandfather

4:14

says, the one you feed. So

4:16

I'd like to start off by asking you what that

4:18

parable means to you in your life

4:21

and in the work that you do. So, firstly,

4:23

Eric, I think it's a great parable, and

4:25

I can see why it's lasted the test

4:27

of time. I think for all of us

4:30

we almost have nearly two wolves,

4:32

or at times the way I look at it, as you know, we have

4:35

a lot of positive and helpful

4:37

thoughts, we have a lot of negative thoughts, difficult

4:39

memories, and sometimes urges show up which

4:41

aren't so useful. So for me in my

4:43

personal life and in terms of the work I do.

4:45

How that resonates that it's not so

4:48

much you know, trying to eradicate

4:51

one and sort of you

4:53

know, mente in the other. For me,

4:55

it's about paying attention to something that matters.

4:57

Pay attention to those things which actually

5:00

mean the most to you. So you know, we

5:02

can have these difficult thoughts, we can have

5:04

these difficult feelings, but we can

5:06

learn in a way to almost let them play like a wed

5:08

in the background. But we learned to pay attention

5:10

to those things that really matter to

5:12

us. And are we going to have struggles?

5:15

Are we going to have times where it feels like the bad

5:17

wolf has has taken charge and taken over.

5:19

Absolutely, But over the test of time,

5:21

the more we're gonna pay attention to that

5:23

good wolf, those more helpful

5:25

thoughts and feelings that hopefully we

5:28

can navigate life and be the

5:30

offer of the life that we really want to live. Very

5:32

well said, So you

5:35

are a mental health practitioner,

5:37

Now you are a coach. You do a lot

5:40

of work with people around O c D.

5:42

We're going to spend a fair amount of time talking

5:44

about that, but you also

5:47

are a mental health trainer at a hospital

5:50

that you were a patient

5:52

at absolutely, and by patient

5:55

I mean a mental health patient

5:57

at that hospital, And so I want to start

5:59

there because it's a really inspiring

6:01

journey from Okay, I'm a patient at this

6:04

hospital too, I'm now training

6:07

the people who are helping it to

6:09

ask. But it's a long way to go. So tell

6:11

me a little bit about what life was like in those

6:13

days. Well for me, Eric, I mean I

6:15

generally it was quite fortunate, growing up a

6:18

really karen love and supportive family,

6:21

very working class background. Um,

6:23

my sort of problem seemed to develop

6:26

in sort of teenage years, where

6:28

you know, I went to a very academic

6:31

school which was really

6:33

really pushing academia, and to be fair,

6:35

I would have described myself as someone who was sort

6:38

of reasonably intelligent, but I just thought

6:40

the rigor and the actual focus

6:42

exclusively on academia as opposed to sports

6:44

and the creative world, which I was very into,

6:47

very stressful and overwhelment, and I seemed to develop,

6:50

you know, at the time, if you can think about

6:52

this, Eric, you know, and you're talking over twenty

6:54

years ago, where mental health just wasn't

6:56

talked about. There was a lot of stigma around and to be

6:58

honest, at fifteen year generase, I didn't really

7:00

know sort of what was going on. So

7:03

I had to actually leave school at this point,

7:06

didn't get some home school, and but just things didn't

7:08

seem right it. In hindsight, I had

7:10

the early symptoms of what we will probably go on to

7:12

discuss eric of o c D, and

7:14

it took a while to get a proper diagnosis

7:16

of that, possibly because I

7:19

was a little aware and afraid

7:22

of the stigma. I just thought that that was going

7:24

for as I just thought I had all these thoughts which

7:26

were just not making sense. And

7:28

it did take of him be an all of a sudden transparent

7:30

a hospital admission for me to get the

7:33

right treatment, the right support that

7:35

I needed to try and get myself

7:37

on the road to recover it. And it's something

7:39

in Italy are like I probably would have refrained

7:41

from telling people and was once an impatient,

7:44

but ironically this is something which has

7:46

been at the cornerstone of the

7:48

work that I do. I have always resonated

7:51

with the sound that the wounded becomes the healer, and

7:53

like you said, it has been a real journey since

7:55

then, but it sort of began an adolescence

7:58

and really took a hospital miss some of the right

8:00

support to get me on the road to recovery.

8:03

Yeah, I love that phrase, the wounded

8:05

becomes the healer. Makes me think when I

8:07

was in treatment, it was the last time. I

8:10

can't remember exactly how many there were before

8:12

that, but the last time I remember there

8:14

were a couple of professionals there

8:17

and they were both highly trained, really

8:19

knew what they were doing, but one of them was also

8:22

of recovering addict, and that

8:24

person, to me, just had

8:26

a level of credibility to me

8:29

that the other person just didn't have.

8:32

Now I shouldn't say not level of credibility,

8:34

level of relatability. And I felt

8:37

like they would understand me, and

8:39

they did. That's not to say that people

8:42

who don't understand to some

8:44

degree, but there's that connection. And you know, I think

8:46

the most powerful thing A figured out really early

8:48

on was how powerful one alcoholic talking

8:50

to another was. And so I'm

8:53

happy to see you have turned the corner to embracing

8:56

Here's where I come from, because I think it really

8:58

lends credence to the work that you do

9:01

and makes you understandable to the people

9:03

you work with. Yeah, and I think Eric, you

9:05

know, looking back at it, I mean I

9:07

left the hospital when I was seventeen

9:10

and supposed to just to put that in a in a bit of context

9:13

for people, I mean, I was seventeen. Most

9:16

people may be beginning to go to university.

9:18

Most people have gone through sort of high

9:20

school and you know, out of place

9:22

where you know, maybe their well world is sort

9:24

of opening up. And and to be fair, it was opening

9:27

up for me. Yes, and the fact of that this

9:29

was not my recovery journey, but I had not one

9:32

qualification to my name. It was quite

9:34

a scary place. At the same time, the

9:36

one thing that I had which

9:38

has always stayed with me is a belief

9:41

in my own ability to get well,

9:43

and sort of beneath that was a

9:46

real determination and almost

9:48

a motivation that when I got well, the

9:50

stuff that I would hopefully learn,

9:53

as I've done my professional work to develop

9:55

to use that to support others, so maybe

9:57

people don't have to go through similar

10:00

stuff that I went through. I see

10:02

on that journey, in the initial stages, I would have

10:04

called myself a bit of a sealth help junkie.

10:06

Where I find I was always

10:08

looking for the answer or the

10:11

magic bullet or the magic want,

10:13

always looking for a way to

10:15

eradicate, minimize diminishment,

10:18

difficult thoughts and feelings, and paradoxically

10:21

I seemed to think that seemed to make things

10:23

worse. You know, I did come across a lot of

10:25

good materials and some of the stuff which we'll probably

10:27

get into, but the mental health recovery to

10:29

a journey. I really love the Japanese

10:32

proverb fall down seven

10:34

times, get abe it, you

10:37

know, because for me, recovery

10:39

is an awful lot like that. You know, it's not a linear

10:41

process where you know everything

10:44

is just gonna be one way, one

10:46

positive trajector. It's about, you know, as somethimes

10:48

we're going to fall, but we can get back up again,

10:51

and every time we get up again, it's opportunity to learn

10:53

what went wrong. But I suppose

10:55

I've just given a bit of context that for me to get

10:57

where I am, it took time. It's

10:59

been a process. But I think what

11:01

I've learned over the years, especially

11:04

some of the feedback and testimonials I get

11:06

from clients, is that one of the things that resonate

11:08

with is my own lipped experience

11:10

and being able to reliate the people

11:12

going through similar issues. Yeah, makes

11:14

sense. You said a couple of things there that I think are

11:16

interested in. One is this idea of

11:19

sort of being a self help junkie. If

11:22

listeners have listened to a whole bunch of this show, they

11:24

probably fall into that category a little

11:26

bit, right, And I think it's just the classic

11:29

double edged sword, right. I guess the

11:31

Buddhist phrase of licking honey off a raiser

11:33

comes to mind, because on

11:36

one hand, it's that passionate

11:38

desire to get better and

11:40

to grow and learn that's so powerful

11:43

and so useful, and it is a

11:45

key element in the process, and

11:49

there's a certain amount of learning

11:52

to say, Okay, here's where i'm

11:54

at. Let me be where

11:56

I'm at without always thinking it needs

11:58

to be someplace differ, Right, I need to

12:00

think differently, I need to feel differently. It's

12:03

this paradox of doing both those

12:05

things. Yeah, I want to keep growing, I want to keep

12:07

learning. I believe I can be

12:09

better, life can be better, and I'm

12:11

okay right here where I sit. Balancing

12:14

that paradox has been certainly

12:17

one of my big challenges. I agree

12:19

Eric, and I think especially in

12:22

today's society where you know, I'm

12:24

a big advocate un user of social

12:26

media, but I also think sometimes it inhabits

12:29

problems. We're we're sort of always, you

12:31

know, putting ourselves up against sometimes unrealistic

12:34

medium where we're always trying to reach

12:36

these at times levels which are

12:38

nearly unreachable. I like a Jordan

12:41

Peterson quote which I don't know what word

12:43

for word, but it's about, you know, trying

12:45

to be a better version of who

12:47

you were yesterday, you know, And I think

12:49

sometimes, I mean that's

12:52

more realistic than trying to sort of set

12:54

these unrealistic sort of targets

12:56

which end up it's very difficult

12:58

to be present because you're always and the next thing,

13:01

you know, and I think it is about, as you said,

13:03

Eric, you know, trying to find that sort of sense

13:05

of equilibrium where you can be

13:07

okay where you are, you can try

13:09

and of course set goals that you want to you

13:11

know, improve and do better in life. But

13:14

at the same time, I think you can get on that

13:16

sort of you know, trail where you

13:19

end up completely missing the moment and actually it really

13:21

seems to be anything that you do or achieve.

13:24

You're never really fully present for because

13:26

you're thinking of the next thing and

13:28

the next thing. And there's a quote that I really

13:30

like, should for the moon even

13:32

if you miss your land among the stars.

13:35

And what I interpret that to mean, eric

13:37

is that I can aim high. Yes, I

13:40

can try and be my best, but if

13:42

I don't get to the right top that maybe

13:45

social media is tell us that we have to go to

13:48

that even if you're laying them on the start, I'm still landing

13:50

pretty high. You're still doing well. So I'm

13:52

all for goals, I'm all for certain high targets,

13:54

but I think mindfulness and being

13:57

more present is a central key to

13:59

wellness as a I agree. I

14:01

always like to try and reorient if I

14:04

can, away from external

14:06

targets to behavior

14:09

based targets. So the

14:11

joke I've been making lately is that Bruce

14:13

Springsteen and Barack Obama started a

14:15

podcast, right, and so all of a sudden,

14:18

I'm like, I'm competing with them, And I'm like, no,

14:20

I'm not. That's ridiculous, Like I

14:22

can't, right, So that's

14:24

a target that is simply out of

14:26

range. But I can't control how

14:28

much we grow, how big we are what I can do

14:31

is just continue to put my effort week after

14:33

week into making the best show I can.

14:35

And when I reorient that way, I

14:37

have a place to put that energy,

14:40

that energy that does seek

14:43

better, that does want to grow, I have a place

14:45

to channel it constructively, versus

14:49

having it just always drive

14:51

me towards these external rewards

14:53

that my experience is for me

14:56

when that's where my orientation is. As soon

14:58

as I hit him, I just redraw the line. You

15:00

know, if you told me once we'd

15:02

have half the number of downloads we had, I would

15:04

say, I'll take it. I would be happy forever

15:06

with that number. Of course, I hit

15:08

that number, I was like, well, that's nice, but what's

15:11

next? You know, Oh that's good. But

15:13

and so yeah, I hear you. And

15:15

so that being present has become

15:17

something that's it's a cliche in our days

15:20

mindfulness and yet is so critically

15:22

important. And I remember when I was

15:25

first introduced to the idea of my influence

15:28

in my own head. I I was just thinking of

15:31

Buddhist monks on the top of the Himalayas

15:33

and chanting and spending

15:36

all day in silence, and I was like, I

15:38

could not have any influence, impact

15:41

or import in my everyday life. I

15:44

was so wrong and that Eric, because it's probably

15:46

been one of the biggest factors in terms of

15:48

my recovery journey and actually stand

15:50

well and a big central component in terms

15:52

of working with clients. And I think this whole

15:55

idea of my influence what it helps with me in terms

15:57

of, you know, the clients I work with, specifically

15:59

with struggle with anxiety and O c

16:01

D and O c D was and

16:04

that has been something I've carried

16:06

for the gods to twenty years. The

16:09

hallmark of that is these

16:11

interests of which is basically another word for

16:13

unwanted thoughts which are shown up which

16:16

people believe when they're in

16:18

that sort of fused manner

16:20

where basically they're just completely blinkered,

16:23

and they believe that those interests of thoughts

16:25

that somehow something bad could happen,

16:27

that somehow they could do something which

16:29

is completely out of character to them, or

16:32

that they have to maybe do something another

16:34

time to make themselves fail right

16:37

or fail a certain way. But all that is going

16:39

on at a very internal level. It's

16:41

all going on in the mind, you know, and it's

16:43

all project into the future. It's catastrophizes

16:46

and then really jump into all these worst

16:48

case scenarios. You're you're going along the worst

16:50

case scenario treein And I think what mindfulness

16:52

helps us to do is to try and being more present

16:55

help us to acknowledge that, yes, we have this

16:57

brand. You know. I know that Steven Hey is

17:00

the co finder of accept as a commitment

17:02

therapy, you know, would use this idea

17:04

that it's like we have this sports car

17:07

between our years, but no one ever gave us a manual

17:09

of how to use it, you know, And I think that

17:11

that's true that I mean, I don't see our

17:13

mind as you said, it's almost like a double

17:15

edged sword. It's not our friend, but it's not our

17:18

enemy either. It's about learning how

17:20

to handle it. And I think mindfulness is

17:22

a skill that we can use this sort of handle

17:25

and begin to regulate some of these difficult thoughts

17:27

and experiences that can show up for us. All.

17:30

So let's talk a little bit about O

17:32

c D. I'm assuming that's the diagnosis

17:35

you were given when you're in the hospital

17:37

and you have gone on to deal

17:39

with that and now you help people with that. And

17:42

I want to get into how we diagnose

17:45

O c D in a minute, But I want to start with

17:48

how do you talk about O c D as far

17:50

as do you consider that you still have

17:52

O c D? You just are treating

17:54

it pretty well. Do you feel like it's

17:56

something that you had and you don't

17:59

have anymore? I think there's people in

18:01

recovery. This is an interesting question. Am I an

18:03

alcoholic or am I an ex alcoholic? And

18:05

some of it's semantic, but some of it's not. And

18:07

and so I'm kind of curious about that.

18:09

And also what things do you do

18:12

in your life now that keep you healthy? That's

18:14

a very good question, Eric, I suppose

18:17

for those listeners who maybe aren't particularly

18:19

familiar with those citing and maybe give a brief synopsis

18:22

of what it's sort of involved. So as as what A touched

18:24

on there, you know, it's primarily

18:26

people will get some difficult thoughts,

18:29

difficult feelings, difficult urges that

18:31

that will show up. And I use that word interested,

18:34

and it basically means unlanted. So

18:36

an example, I used to try and explain this to

18:39

someone who would sort of have more obsessive

18:41

type tendencies versus someone who doesn't.

18:44

Say you and a friend decided to go up

18:46

a hike up your local mountain and you get to the top.

18:49

Believe it or not, it's not uncommon to have

18:51

the thought would be like a jump. One

18:53

person may be able to say people, that's

18:55

a bit of a weird and random thought, but I

18:57

need to focus on getting down this mountain before

19:00

it's dark. So they've noticed the thought,

19:03

they've noticed it a little bit strange and

19:05

and and weird and uncomfortable, but they realize

19:07

that almost it's just the thought, and

19:09

let's get all of what we need to do. We just get down

19:11

the mind and the other person can

19:13

have that same thought, but it's

19:15

almost like a constellation of other thoughts come

19:18

around it, like what does this mean about me? Why

19:20

am I having this thought? Am I weird? What's

19:22

wrong with me? Am I suicidal? There's no way

19:24

my friend could be having the same thought. So

19:27

almost the distinction, I sort of say there is

19:30

in the first instance, that person knownly

19:32

or not as able to sort of have that thought,

19:35

acknowledge that it's there, but we get

19:38

recognized it's not worthy of their attention. The

19:40

other person has had that thought, and

19:42

almost by paying attention to it and almost

19:44

being afraid by it, it's

19:46

created more thoughts and have become more entangled,

19:49

more ensnared. So over

19:51

time that can build up into you know,

19:53

maybe someone washes their hands. It's quite a generic

19:55

example, and they'll have the thought

19:57

that even though they've seen that their hands are washed,

19:59

that the hands are clean, they may still have the thought

20:01

that they don't fail clean, so I need

20:03

to wash again, and that can lead

20:06

into cycle where people can be at a sink

20:08

for a long period of time and maybe developed

20:10

things like red hands and things can can

20:12

turn very uncomfortable. So

20:15

really, what people do in terms of these interests

20:17

of thoughts is what's called compulsions, will do some

20:19

sort of behaviors are trying to alleviate

20:21

the anxiety, like in that example wash their hands

20:23

again. So really the work that I

20:26

do and in terms of how I have managed

20:28

to actually stay well myself, eric

20:31

to sort of come around out the answering your question

20:33

is I don't see O c D in

20:35

terms of cure. I see managing

20:37

O c D in terms of that we break the

20:39

cycle. And the reason why I use that example

20:41

about two people going down the mountain or going

20:44

up the mountain and then coming down is that's a

20:46

very good way. I see recovery in the fact of that

20:48

sometimes I still get difficult

20:51

thoughts, sometimes I still get urges

20:53

to do things that I would rather not do, but

20:56

I don't do those things that would be urged

20:58

to do anymore. And I think that you

21:00

can really then take almost whether you

21:03

are dealing with O. C D or dealing with

21:05

depression or addiction, you know

21:07

when you can learn to partial it in that way

21:09

that you can have the thought, you can have the

21:11

urge, you can have the difficult experience, and

21:15

you have the choice in terms of

21:17

how you respond. I think that opens

21:19

up a whole different ball game, And for me

21:22

that's about it's a lot more liberating than you

21:24

have a thought, you have a failing you have to act

21:27

on it. First. We have this thought,

21:29

but we have a choice of what we do with it. Yeah,

21:32

that's sort of the fundamental starting

21:34

point for so much of

21:37

making life better in countless

21:39

ways. Is that

21:41

basic understanding, like, well,

21:43

I think it, I feel it. A that

21:46

doesn't make it true and be I

21:48

don't need to do it. I can exist these

21:51

thoughts and feelings can do that, and that

21:53

that separation. So a question

21:55

that often I have when you think

21:57

about o c D. And I'm always a little

21:59

ware of diagnosis in

22:02

general, but I'm also particularly

22:04

leery of it on you know, asking

22:06

you to sort of make a diagnosis, and that's

22:08

not what I'm doing. Like, take somebody who's

22:10

a real extreme worrier, they're just always

22:13

worrying. Where does

22:15

it cross the line from I'm just a

22:17

real worrier. Two,

22:20

I have obsessive compulsive thoughts.

22:22

And maybe maybe to say a cross the line is

22:24

the wrong way to say it, because all

22:26

this stuff is on a gradation, so maybe

22:28

there's not an exact line. But

22:31

how would someone sort of go, well, okay, I I

22:33

do have a lot of thoughts that are difficult and unpleasant

22:36

negative versus maybe I need

22:38

to seek help for o c D. That's

22:40

a very good question, Eric, and I think

22:42

it's something which I mean in the work

22:44

that I do, that I would gass also by

22:47

people who may be are showing,

22:49

you know, maybe sort of more minor symptoms versus

22:52

those who's majorly affect on them.

22:54

And really what it comes down into, Eric, is

22:56

in terms of innote ways that affect

22:58

in your life. You know, I think all of

23:00

us as human beings. It's part of the human

23:02

conditions sometimes that we worry that

23:04

we have challenges and we have difficult thought

23:07

processes would show up for us. But sometimes

23:09

we as human beings are generally

23:12

able to sort of manage that and regulate that in

23:14

some sort of capacity. Where O c D is

23:16

involved, you know, it can become so debilitating

23:19

that it actually becomes a cornerstone of

23:21

people's lives. You know, some

23:23

clients I work with, maybe in the initial stages,

23:26

most people when they go and take a shower or

23:28

they have a wash, or they have a bath, it's it's

23:31

not an issue for them, you know. I have worked

23:33

with clients who have maybe you know, are spending

23:35

two or three hours in the show because of the of the

23:37

rituals that they have to do. There's other clients

23:39

who will develop issues. For a lot of listeners

23:41

who may be thinking all like just talking about that the stereotypical

23:44

of O c D stuff, but for a lot of people can

23:46

be literally just in the realm of there's

23:48

a theme with an O c D called pure

23:50

oh, where it just consists of

23:52

obsessive thoughts where someone is like continually

23:55

thinking, you know, I like that idea

23:57

of rumination or if you think about the ki tune

24:00

on the cud turn something over and

24:02

over and over again, where it's completely

24:05

taken them away further quality of life that they

24:07

can't be present, that they or

24:09

maybe going to work, but they're completely

24:12

not present because they're so consumed with this stuff

24:14

that's going on within their minds. So generally

24:16

clients will come to see me Eric when

24:18

it's getting to the place of where it's affect on things

24:20

like their work, their family life, their

24:23

hobbies, their quality of life

24:25

to the point where they're finding that unmanigeable.

24:28

And I think that for most people,

24:30

whether it's me or another professional,

24:33

they get a bit of relief when they start

24:35

to realize that this is a problem which I

24:37

can get help and support with because I know that as

24:40

I mentioned at the beginning, I mean thoughts, I

24:42

was having a nice lea thoughts you what's wrong with me? Like

24:45

it's just you sort of get into this whole that you're

24:47

just almost a maniac, or that you're

24:49

going and seeing when actually have a real diagnosical

24:51

problem, and with the right support,

24:54

right help, that you can actually get the place of

24:56

where you can live a life of mean and purpose.

25:28

Let's talk about some of the treatments

25:30

for o c D, because one of the most

25:33

common ones is exposure

25:36

and response, often referred to as

25:38

e RP. But I don't think that's the

25:40

only treatment for

25:42

o c D. I think there are mindfulness

25:44

based treatments. I think acceptance and commitment

25:47

therapy can be used for o c

25:49

D. So talk to me about how those sort of

25:51

work together or ways that they

25:53

differ from each other. I think exposure

25:56

in response prefense and is probably it still

25:58

is to this day, gold stands and for those

26:00

listeners who maybe are unsure what it involves.

26:02

You know, say, if someone has

26:05

developed this idea of like they

26:07

have to wash their hands ten times before

26:09

they have to leave their house in the morning, so they've developed

26:11

this almost anxiety and fear that they were

26:13

to do that less times that that would

26:15

be insurmountable, that would be too anxiety

26:17

provoking. So what I would do with a client

26:20

like that is we would try and great that

26:22

in terms of like what's called the hierarchy of anxiety.

26:25

So the exposure part

26:27

and exposures response prevention stands

26:30

for let's begin to expose

26:33

the client to that thing

26:35

that they are afraid of. But we're

26:37

going to do it in a gentle, manageable manner.

26:39

So in that example idea of where the person

26:42

is washing their hands ten times, okay,

26:44

next, and let's try doing at nine. And

26:46

with the response prevention peace comes in

26:48

as where you don't do the response of washing

26:50

them again, you don't go and wash it to the tenth time.

26:53

So what that treatment does in the initial

26:55

stages that can be quite challenging, and you need to

26:58

get the client on board, and that's where you need to think

27:00

about values and things. Eric, you know of

27:02

where you want to go with this is

27:04

that I can be anxiety provoking, that

27:07

you can sort of fail those physiological

27:09

feelings of anxiety and all you want

27:11

to do is wash your hands at one more time.

27:13

But as you begin to refocus your attention

27:16

on something as simple as Okay, I'm going to leave

27:18

this, think I'm going to get out of the bar

27:20

from and I'm going to go and think about

27:22

the next task I have to do. Early between

27:24

that time and by the time you've gone onto your next task,

27:27

that anxiety diminishes. And over

27:29

time of doing the ARP, whether

27:31

it's in that example or others, clients

27:34

begin to see that their anxiety reduces by

27:36

itself without having to do these ritualistic

27:39

behaviors. So that's the sort of e

27:41

r P quality and suppose

27:44

how we bring acceptance and commitment

27:46

therapy into that, which is this idea of

27:48

trying to be more willing

27:51

to sort of have your experience

27:54

as it shows up as supposed to fight suppress

27:56

and get rid of it and and base

27:59

our life on our values. And what we care about

28:02

is that we're not just saying the clan

28:04

okay, does this wash your hands, storry nine times

28:06

just for the sake of it. We're staying up because we

28:09

value and I value your life and I want you

28:11

to spend less time at the SYNC and more time

28:13

with your kids, or more time pursuing

28:16

the things that you care about, you know. And I

28:18

think then that's a completely different conversation

28:20

because the necessarily when you talk about exposure and response

28:23

prevntion, you're met with resistance. But

28:25

when clients can see, well, you know what, this

28:27

is going to help me to go where I want to go. That I

28:30

can get back to university and I can spend

28:32

more time with the kids, but I can

28:34

go back and do that job that I want to do

28:36

and clients send can be more on board.

28:39

There are similarities there to addiction,

28:41

recovery to right in that at

28:44

some point, with addiction, if you

28:46

say I'm not going to pick up the

28:49

substance, You've got to face

28:51

the feeling that's there and

28:54

that fundamental sort of shift

28:56

of how wash my hands one less

28:58

time even though I really want to do it another

29:01

time? Or I won't pick up

29:03

the drink even though I really feel like it. And

29:05

so there's that, And then I think the

29:07

next thing you point to is so important, which

29:10

is why why

29:12

am I not picking up the drink? Why

29:15

am I not washing my hands the next

29:17

time? And that that's where we tie into

29:20

what matters to us, what do we really

29:22

want, what do we value? And turning

29:24

our attention in that direction. So I think there's a

29:26

lot of similarity there. I guess

29:29

with mindfulness, i'd be curious

29:31

if obsessive and compulsive thinking

29:34

is Let's talk about it from just

29:36

the obsession the thinking part, because

29:38

again I think that a lot of people have this

29:40

racing mind, and I think it's on a continuum.

29:43

But mindfulness almost feels

29:45

like, well, wait a second, I'm turning my attention

29:47

to these thoughts, So

29:50

talk about how that helps

29:52

with O c D or does it sometimes

29:55

get confusing and that's the wrong

29:57

direction to turn. Say a little bit more about

29:59

how mindful this ties in. I generally

30:01

try and bring mindfulness and

30:04

not not in terms in this lay of formal

30:06

meditation practice generally is helping

30:08

to see clients sort of. I would try and explain

30:11

in very much sort of basic terms of what

30:13

it involves and how it can be helpful. So I

30:15

think, as you mentioned, you know, people

30:18

with o c D even take the diagnosis

30:20

ode of it. People with a recent mind a lot

30:22

of difficult thoughts and feelings, they're

30:25

spending a lot of time in the future

30:27

and jump in the worst case, and I was that they were very

30:29

rarely present, and you sort of bring

30:31

this idea up, you know, would you like to try something

30:33

we could help you to be a bit more present, which could

30:36

help you to spend less time in

30:38

that ether of the future where you

30:40

know there are these things that could happen, but

30:42

also different things that could happen also, you

30:45

know, but the only really time we can make a difference

30:47

as the here and now. You're trying to sort of

30:49

put it in those terms. You know, clients

30:51

start to see mindfulness as not this big

30:54

abstract term that's only for people who

30:56

can afford two days silent retreats,

30:59

or you know, we can go and do a fancy,

31:01

big room yoga class. You know, it

31:03

brings it down to everyday

31:05

individual and how I try and get

31:07

clients on board as the recognition I'll bring in

31:09

something of my own lived experience that

31:12

for me, being mindful it's

31:14

probably been one of the things along

31:16

with acceptance of commitment, therapy and constructive

31:18

living also which we may get into

31:21

which keeps me well. You know, as

31:23

you said at the beginning, it's almost like my own wellness

31:25

toolbox. I can pick these things out,

31:28

and being mindful is something which clients

31:31

can resonate with. Once I get that idea

31:33

of what it involves and how it can

31:36

be applied to everyday life and making a difference.

31:38

Then I'll bring in some sort of meditation practice

31:40

generally involved in some sort of mindful

31:43

breathing technique, or will do maybe

31:45

a minute or so initially of helping people

31:47

get more into their body and less into their mind,

31:50

because that's what we see the involved awful lot of Eric

31:52

spending so much time in our minds and we're

31:54

so disconnected to our body and

31:57

when we can come back to that. None of

31:59

this, as well as just to just the caveator, is going to magically

32:02

make the stuff go away. But what mindfulness

32:04

does. It helps it to be more monageable, and

32:07

as I know and Don Harris's book Temperson

32:09

Happier, it can make things a

32:11

lot more moniteable and make life more

32:14

livable. Cognitive behavioral

32:16

therapy is for listeners who

32:18

aren't familiar. The basic idea is

32:20

that you try and examine your thoughts

32:23

for distortions, ways

32:25

that you're not seeing the world correctly,

32:28

and thus if you can see those distortions

32:31

ideally, then you

32:33

see the world more clearly and you suffer

32:36

less. So it's a technique

32:38

that I have found very useful in

32:40

a lot of ways. I think it has limitations,

32:42

but I want to talk to you about where

32:45

some of those limitations are, particularly

32:47

when it comes to obsessive thinking. So

32:49

at first glance, it seems like, well, this would

32:52

be a great thing to apply to somebody

32:54

who's having obsessive thinking,

32:57

but I don't think it really always is. Can

32:59

you share why that is and when maybe

33:01

it is a useful tool and when it's not. Yeah,

33:04

and again another great question. And I

33:06

think, I mean, I'll probably bring a bit of my own

33:08

personal experience in here. I mean, in terms

33:10

of my recovery and in terms of when I

33:12

left the hospital, I would have went to

33:14

a person clinic. I would have seen a

33:17

very good, very robust, working

33:19

a long time cognitive behavioral therapist,

33:22

and we worked really well

33:24

together, developed a really good rapport exposure

33:27

and response prevention the ARP, which you've just

33:29

talked about as a big component of

33:31

cognitive behavioral therapy, and

33:34

it's something which is used an awful lot in the

33:36

treatment of O c D. But to answer your

33:38

question, to answer it first of all personally,

33:40

but I find difficult about CBT, especially

33:43

the cognitivelopment, especially that bit

33:45

you were mentioned about sort of trying to challenge,

33:48

trying to rationalize, try and look for the evidence,

33:51

almost try and you know, if you

33:53

have a negative thought, let's try and look for the positive

33:55

way on that. It sounded all very nice

33:57

and paper and I think in the short term

34:00

it had a little bit of benefit, But in the long

34:02

term I still didn't stop those

34:04

negative, difficult challenge and thoughts from

34:07

showing up. Ross Harris used the

34:09

term and offer of the happiness trap,

34:11

another sort of accory. You know, if you

34:13

go and learn Spanish, you're

34:15

not going to forget English. You

34:18

know, if you go to a positive thinking class,

34:20

sometimes you're still going to get these negative thoughts

34:22

which show up. So for me in

34:25

my own personal life, and as I said before, very

34:27

openly and honestly, I really was somewhat

34:29

of a self help junking. I mean, if you could look around my room

34:31

now, there's there's books from

34:34

mindfulness to act to CBT, to

34:37

logo therapy, whatever, union.

34:39

But in my journey, for me,

34:42

trying to spend too much time trying

34:44

to figure out change, rationalized

34:46

dispute thoughts nearly

34:48

good in my own way, you know, it

34:50

nearly paradoxically got

34:52

me more stuck. The behavioral

34:55

part of CBT is very useful,

34:57

and I think in another therapeutic model,

35:00

I think that's lasted the test of time, because

35:02

it really is. But for me, it

35:04

was about trying to get out of my own

35:07

way, which helped me the most. You

35:09

know, I suppose I'm bringing that in terms of the professional

35:11

context, in terms of how I work with clients, and

35:13

that way Eric where a lot of clients come

35:15

to me, and their number one thing is they want to get

35:17

rid of those difficult thoughts and feelings they

35:20

are causing them distress. Their

35:22

lives are terrible. This is

35:24

not what they want anymore at first

35:26

and foremost ibility of that, because

35:29

it's a horrible place to be when you feel that, the

35:31

stress that you don't know where to turn. I want

35:33

to re poor is built. And once we sort of get

35:35

comfortable with each other, I usually do the thought

35:38

experiment, and we could do this here together

35:41

very quickly. As you know, as hard as you

35:43

can do not think about

35:45

a pink elephant, and nine times to

35:47

attend, some resemblance of a pink elephant

35:49

will show up in your mind. So why

35:51

am I even mentioning that? Because it's this idea that when

35:54

you try not to think about something,

35:56

which happens in a lot of anxiety problems

35:58

where you try and avoid certain thoughts,

36:01

paradox would seemed to think of with them more So.

36:04

CBT has its uses, but I think

36:06

it also has its limitations. So

36:08

I think that's where the likes of acceptance

36:10

and commitment therapy and some of these mindfless

36:12

present moment based processes can be

36:14

helpful away.

36:40

I often think about it, and I'm curious kind of

36:42

what your opinion is. I sometimes

36:45

think that that CBT approach

36:48

is a really good first

36:51

step to see if

36:53

the thought. If I just examine it and

36:55

I go, oh God, that's not

36:57

true. Sometimes I can see

37:00

right through it and it all changes. There's

37:03

a famous Stephen Covey story

37:05

that I love where he's on a train

37:08

and there's these kids running up and down in

37:10

the train. I tell this story in my Spiritual

37:12

Habits course. Kids running up and down

37:14

on the train and they're yelling and disturbing

37:17

everybody in the car. And Dr Covey's

37:19

sitting there. He's just getting more irritated. And

37:21

the dad of the kids is just sitting there, not

37:23

doing anything, and these kids are yelling, they're bumping

37:25

into people. He can't take it anymore. You know this story.

37:27

You're shaking your head. And he finally goes

37:29

up to the man. He says, excuse me, sir, your kids

37:31

are disturbing everybody here. You know, maybe

37:34

you could tone them down. And the guy looks up kind of dazed

37:36

and says, oh, I'm so sorry.

37:39

We just left their hospital and their mother

37:41

just died and they don't know how to handle

37:43

it, and I guess I don't either, And

37:45

in that moment everything change,

37:48

right. You can feel it when you hear that story.

37:50

Instantly you go from thinking

37:52

what's wrong with that guy? Is a jerk? To like, oh my

37:54

god, what can I do to help that man? So that

37:57

cognitive approach can be really power

38:00

or full. I always find it worth exploring

38:02

a different way. I could see this. What am

38:05

I making it mean? But then

38:07

after that I often find like,

38:09

Okay, well that cleared away a little

38:11

debris maybe, but now I'm

38:14

just stuck in the debate loop. Now

38:16

I'm just stuck in the debate loop with this negative

38:19

thought. And that's then where

38:21

I think pivoting towards a little bit more

38:23

of a Okay, these thoughts

38:25

are going to be here. How do I relate

38:28

to them differently? How do I relax

38:30

around them differently? Does that resonate

38:32

with your way of approaching it? Absolutely?

38:35

I think you couldn't have said

38:37

it any better that you know, it's a great story,

38:40

and sometimes you know, I mean I've I've experienced

38:42

it in my own life. It's you know where maybe you

38:44

could be walking down the street and maybe you

38:46

we have a friend and

38:48

they don't believe at you back, and you're maybe

38:50

first initial thought is that ignorant

38:52

pig, you know, don't even we have may back we

38:55

find it later that day they didn't even see you,

38:57

didn't even see you, or maybe that they were caught

38:59

up in the world and you know that there's

39:01

so many things going on and sometimes are

39:04

I know when CBT, they'd use that word

39:06

and to your automatic negative thoughts, the

39:09

automatic thought that shows up free there is

39:11

that that person is ignerant,

39:13

that person is basically not giving me the time

39:15

of day. When actually that particular thought

39:18

it wasn't rational, it wasn't accurate. And like you

39:20

said, I think in instance is like that sometimes

39:23

reframing and looking at things a

39:25

bit differently can be very useful.

39:28

I think where it can have its strawbacks, especially

39:31

in terms of working with people who have

39:33

obsessive and anxiety type problems, is

39:35

that the thoughts keep coming back, even

39:37

in its name obsessive is

39:40

that there is a chronic quality to whatever

39:43

sort of treatment model is applied.

39:45

Sometimes the thoughts will

39:48

come back and show up again. So

39:50

it seems to be what works really well.

39:53

But with clients with those types of problems,

39:55

Let's face Eric, we all getting to sometimes

39:58

we all have difficult thoughts and for hands, but

40:01

it's more, as you alluded to, what

40:03

do we do when they show up? Do

40:05

we get completely blinkered and we

40:08

basically give them all our time

40:10

or energy and attention and dictate what

40:12

they do? Where oh I have the thought

40:14

after wash their hands again, so I go and wash

40:16

my hands again. Or because

40:19

I'm for some people, they may have a thought that maybe

40:21

when they're cutting up vegsibles that actually somehow

40:24

cause harm to myself or others. You

40:26

pay attention to that thought, you give it full believability.

40:29

What do you do you stop using night So

40:32

thoughts, in my opinion of very much

40:35

like the weather in that they're

40:38

constantly present, but also they're

40:40

ever changing. So with that

40:42

response, you know, if you have its raining,

40:45

you bring your umbrella and you try and get on with your day.

40:47

If it's suddy, you put on a nice pair of shorts

40:49

and taster and try and do the best

40:51

that you can with the situation. And when I'm working

40:53

with clients, I try and validate

40:56

what they're going through, but also

40:58

given the choice that they can

41:01

choose to do what's meaningful

41:03

for them. And and the truth, Eric, it's it's how

41:05

I try and live my own life, where sometimes

41:07

I'll get difficult thoughts, I'll get urges

41:09

to do things which aren't aligned with my

41:12

values. But I've got the place

41:14

oftwhere a bit like the radio in the background,

41:16

where you can be at a restaurant and

41:18

you can be having a meal, something

41:21

I look forward to when the COVID restrictions

41:23

sort of ease here where I'm at, and

41:26

you can be fully engaged in your mail and

41:28

the people you're with. You're not noticing that music

41:31

in the background. It's still going on, but

41:33

you're still engaged in what you're doing. You're focusing

41:35

on that. When that good song comes up, that

41:37

harbor or that bond you'll be you notice it. But

41:39

when it's not, you just let it play on the background and

41:41

you put your time and energy into your mail and

41:43

those here with And I think we can actually learn to do

41:46

that in our everyday life. With a thought shows

41:48

up which is useful, Let's give it our time, let's

41:50

give her attention, let's let it navigate what

41:53

we do. But if it's unhelpful if it's

41:55

sort of encouraging us to do things which are

41:57

aligned with our values or could make things work.

42:00

Let's just let that play away in the background where we

42:02

focus on on the alb motel. So that's

42:04

an analogy which I am some of my clients

42:06

are find useful. I think it's a really

42:09

useful analogy, and

42:11

I'm curious about that.

42:14

That's one of those things also that

42:16

at least initially sounds good

42:18

on paper and is really

42:21

hard to do. Like, Okay, you're having the

42:23

thought, just don't give it a lot of attention,

42:25

and yet it's getting all the attention. There's a lot

42:27

of energy bound up in it. So what

42:29

are some techniques that people can

42:31

use two? All

42:34

right, there's that thought again, whether it's

42:36

calling me to a compulsion or it's just I'm

42:38

worried about the mortgage payment for the seven

42:41

and fiftieth time today.

42:43

Right, I realized that that's no longer a

42:45

useful thought. There's nothing I'm gonna

42:47

do about the mortgage payment at this point.

42:49

I've done what I can do. It's just recycling.

42:52

So what are some ways some techniques of

42:54

going all right, how do I in acceptance

42:56

of commitment therapy, we would say get

42:58

a little distance from it. In Buddhism

43:01

they would would say a very similar thing, sort

43:03

of just observe it, don't engage with

43:05

it. So what are some techniques for doing that?

43:07

Because that's really easy to say and

43:09

really hard to do a lot

43:11

of times. In reality. Absolutely,

43:14

and I think when we can get to that

43:16

place where you know, thoughts

43:18

and feelings can show up and we have a choice

43:20

in terms of high respond it's a very liberating

43:22

place to be. But you know, I think

43:25

you have to be very careful why you parcel out

43:27

ARC because I can almost seem quite invalidate

43:29

and honestly for some people or it's like, okay,

43:31

well you haven't dealt with what I've dealt with,

43:34

or you aren't think of what I'm thinking, you aren't

43:36

feeling what I'm feeling, you know, and people

43:38

in necessary reaction is almost like he just

43:41

tell me to sort of dismiss or ignore

43:43

what I'm sort of experiencing, and

43:45

I relegate. It's it's completely opposite. It's about

43:47

helping client to get the place of where no

43:50

they can acknowledge and be aware of

43:52

what's showing up, but choosing to

43:54

put their time, energy and attention onto

43:56

something which is more meaningful. So I think

43:58

the first part of that ERIC

44:01

is to help get thoughts from a place where

44:04

they're completely dominant and completely

44:07

you know, at a place where they are dictating what

44:09

you do behaviorally, so that to try

44:11

and get a wee bit of wigle room. Let's try and save right,

44:14

instead of the thoughts being up here covering

44:16

or eye that's all we can see. Okay, we've got a

44:18

bit of choice here, and now we can choose to

44:20

go there or we can choose to do something

44:22

else, and within acceptance of commitment

44:24

therapy, that will be known as this idea

44:27

of cognitive diffusion, of trying to get a

44:29

bit of distance, trying to get a bit of space,

44:31

a bit of separation from those difficult thoughts

44:33

and feelings that are shown up. One

44:35

way I would do that with clients is is

44:37

what I would call it a three sentence exercise.

44:40

You pick a thought. Generally,

44:42

if I say zero, the thought basically

44:44

is producing no anxiety inten It's

44:47

like a hot thought. You wouldn't go near it.

44:49

It's trying to pick a thought which shows up regularly

44:51

for you, but it's maybe about halfway

44:53

through the sort of anxiety, sort

44:55

of vector scale, and we'll put the thought out

44:57

there. So say, it might be the example

44:59

you give quite a mortgage payment, that I have this huge

45:01

mortgage payment. I'm never gonna finish

45:04

it or pair it off. So what

45:06

do you do? If you begin that, always

45:08

the first sentences you'll write that out. The first

45:10

sentences, I can't pay this payment.

45:13

What we're going to do in the second and third sentence, we're

45:15

going to add a couple of words to that, And the second

45:17

sentence you'll add I'm having

45:19

the thought that I can't make

45:22

the mortgage payment, and the final sentence being

45:24

I notice I'm having the

45:26

thought that I can't make the

45:29

mortgage payment. Obviously, that's something which I

45:31

would encourage clients to do to

45:33

give a goal. Obviously, if you type

45:35

that in in YouTube, there's a lot of great

45:37

videos that talk you through that. But

45:39

it's that idea, and even as I say it myself

45:42

and working with clients, I can help to

45:44

create a wee bit of distance, help to get

45:46

that thought from believability

45:49

to Okay, there's that thought, and sometimes

45:52

it hooks me. Here's people say and act. Sometimes

45:54

it's sort of phases, there's nothing else that I can

45:56

do. But when you get that wee bit of wiggle room,

45:59

it's like, oh, choice comes in the room. And

46:01

then it's about them bringing in those behavioral

46:03

things, like what can I do on

46:05

a practical level? Is there

46:08

at that agency that I can speak with? Is there's

46:10

some support I can get financially? Is

46:12

it a case of I need to try and look for work. Is

46:14

it a case that I'm able to get all the benefits

46:16

that I'm entitled to. So it's not

46:18

just that we, oh, let's have this thought

46:21

about the moor Egan, let's do so that's not dealing about

46:23

it. It's about recognizing, yeah,

46:25

there's be things that need to be done here, but we

46:27

can't make progress if we're just consumed

46:30

by the negativity and the overwhelming

46:32

nature of the phone. Yeah.

46:35

I like that when I'm having the thought that,

46:37

and then I noticed that I'm having the thought

46:39

that it's just these degrees of separation

46:42

similar to that idea. Often

46:44

instead of saying like I'm anxious, you just say,

46:46

well, anxiety is present, you

46:49

know. It just changes the orientation

46:51

a little bit, like Okay, it's here, but that's

46:53

not what I am so

46:55

those are all ways. Another one of

46:58

my favorites that comes from accepting it's

47:00

a commitment therapy is to

47:02

sort of think those thoughts in a different

47:04

voice. I found this one to be really

47:07

helpful because I think one of the hardest things is

47:09

that are good thoughts or maybe

47:11

I won't even say good art. Positive thoughts are negative

47:13

thoughts are accurate, thoughts are inaccurate

47:16

thoughts. They all think in the same

47:18

voice. It's the same voice.

47:20

It's like, Eric, you should go murder people

47:22

and take heroin. Is the same voice

47:24

that's like, Eric, I think you should probably go

47:27

donate your life savings to that orphanage.

47:29

It sounds like the same person. I'm like, well, wait a

47:31

second. So this idea of being able

47:33

to put it in a different voice, and I shared on the podcast.

47:36

I certainly share it with coaching clients a lot. But

47:38

my inner voice one of the ones I use as e

47:41

or the donkey from Winnie the Pooh. You

47:43

know, my inner e or everything's

47:46

just so sad. You know, it's

47:48

not much of a tale. But I'm not much of a donkey.

47:51

The minute that I take whatever I'm thinking

47:54

and I hear it in that voice, it makes me

47:56

smile. You know. Now I don't

47:58

remember to do it often, but

48:01

almost every time I do if I'm like,

48:03

oh yeah, there's E or again boom,

48:05

I have a different relationship helps

48:08

you get that at a distance and by gild

48:10

Ram, And to be fair, I was laughing at how accurate

48:13

you were able to do that your voice. Eric, I

48:17

know him, well, you're very

48:20

skilled at at doing that voice. And I think that

48:22

that's a very similar to that sort of three yet

48:24

sentence exercise that I talked people through,

48:27

same thoughts I allowed like that in

48:29

a different tone. Some people use

48:32

maybe a president's name they don't like,

48:34

thrive voice that they didn't like, or maybe a sports

48:37

commentator or maybe

48:39

you know, people will sing it into the theme a happy

48:41

birthday, And it's about trying

48:44

some of this stuff. Eric. You know, I think that for

48:46

me, even in my own acceptance

48:48

of commitment therapy training, as I got really involved

48:50

in the work, there was a little bit of stuff I was but hesitant

48:52

off and that wouldn't work for me. And right now, three

48:54

sentences, how's that going to help? Or you

48:56

know, saying that I'm not going to do this thing

48:58

to the signed a happy but actually when

49:01

you give these things ago, he started to see that they

49:03

can have benefit and they can be useful.

49:06

Another one which probably you maybe

49:08

touched on before in previous podcast,

49:10

Eric, is that idea of sort of word

49:13

repetition and how that can

49:15

actually be helpful. They the sort of milk and milk

49:17

exercise. Um, I know that's Stephen

49:19

Hayes, who you've had on the show

49:21

as well, and one of the co finders

49:23

of Act basically uses

49:25

an example of that. He was

49:27

at a seminar and given

49:30

a talk and basically one of the

49:32

figures he was given was something like four

49:34

and a half billion pounds, when actually the answer

49:36

was four and a half million pounds. And he

49:38

actually remembers going home that night to

49:41

his apartment and just

49:43

burying himself for saying this. Where I am

49:45

sitting in where you are. It seems to maybe a minor

49:47

thing in the grand scheme of things, but for him this

49:50

was massive and mammoth, and he woke

49:52

up in the middle of the night and he was again

49:54

sort of overwhelmed by this. Sally, and you're

49:57

such an idiot, You're such a stupid You're supposed to be

49:59

a professor, and this is the sort of stuff you're doing. You're

50:01

getting it wrong. And I said, well, maybe

50:03

this is an opportunity to practice water prates.

50:05

Let's try aw diffusion exercise and really

50:07

what it involves. For thirty seconds you say

50:09

a word which is troubling for you, and for thirty

50:12

seconds he went stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid,

50:15

to the point that the word

50:17

becomes almost meaningless nonsense.

50:21

I just usedes and just business, he says, oh, And

50:23

after that I felt, Okay, I'm back to

50:25

sleep, you know. And I think

50:27

it's it's that idea that there are skills

50:29

that we can use that can really diminish

50:33

the impact of some of the language that

50:35

shows up within our head. And I

50:37

know that in my life I generally try

50:39

and live both personally and professionally as

50:41

I've tranced out in my own way. I know that sometimes

50:44

thoughts are going to show up that I don't approve or

50:46

like. But I also know

50:48

there's going to thoughts show up that are really

50:50

useful to me. And I find that having that approach

50:53

of almost let not play out, you

50:56

know, and choose and which thoughts that pay attention

50:58

to again, like you said, is a skill Eric

51:00

and does take time, but it's

51:03

a place that are a lot of clients that I work with

51:05

a meat personally, and I think Eric, in your own

51:07

life you're touched on and your own issues

51:09

and challenges that you can get the place

51:11

of you can live a life of me and the

51:13

purpose even with the stuff that chows

51:15

up sometimes. I love all those examples.

51:18

As we were talking there, it occurred to me maybe the one

51:20

you feed should offer a service. Chris

51:22

will record a voice over of

51:24

whatever your negative thoughts are and whatever

51:26

ridiculous voice you want, and we'll we'll send

51:29

it to you. He's a very talented voiceover

51:31

expert. If you need an interview or a voice

51:33

give me a ring. Um. Now, those are all

51:35

really great. You and I are going to talk a little

51:37

bit in the post show conversation about

51:40

values because that's a big theme,

51:43

is you know, living according to our values.

51:45

Well, I'd like to talk about, Okay, how do I

51:47

find my values and how do I

51:49

know what they are without getting lost in

51:52

another world of thought that feels confusing

51:55

You and I will do that in the post show conversation. Listeners

51:57

if you like access to that as well as

52:00

add free episodes A weekly episode.

52:02

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52:11

Paul, thanks so much for

52:13

coming on. It's been a real pleasure to finally

52:16

get to have this conversation. Very welcome,

52:18

Erica, Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. If

52:37

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