0:00

Maybe it's just my heart that believes in

0:02

it, not my mind, but my heart.

0:04

I know that being kind and being

0:07

just and compassionate is freedom.

0:09

I just know it. Welcome

0:19

to the one you feed Throughout

0:21

time, great thinkers have recognized the

0:23

importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

0:25

like garbage in, garbage out,

0:27

or you are what you think ring

0:30

true. And yet for many of

0:32

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

0:34

us. We tend toward negativity, self

0:37

pity, jealousy, or fear.

0:39

We see what we don't have instead of what we

0:42

do. We think things that hold us

0:44

back and dampen our spirit. But

0:46

it's not just about thinking. Our

0:48

actions matter. It takes conscious,

0:50

consistent, and creative effort to make

0:52

a life worth living. This podcast

0:55

is about how other people keep themselves moving

0:57

in the right direction, how they feed

1:00

their good wolf. Thanks

1:15

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:18

is Spring Washam, who was also our guest

1:20

on episode one

1:23

Way Back in the Day. Spring is a well

1:25

known meditation and dharma teacher based

1:27

in Oakland, California, and she's the

1:29

founding member and core teacher at the

1:31

East Bay Meditation Center. She

1:34

is the founder of lotus, fine journeys,

1:36

and organization that blends indigenous

1:38

healing practices with Buddhist wisdom.

1:41

On this episode, Eric and Spring discuss

1:44

many things and cover a lot of ground, including

1:46

her book, A Fierce Heart, Finding

1:49

Strength, Courage and Wisdom in Any

1:51

Moment. Hi Spring, Welcome

1:53

to the show. Hi Eric, It's so

1:55

great to talk with you again here. Yeah,

1:58

it's such a pleasure to have you back on again. And

2:00

your latest book, which is called

2:02

A Fierce Heart, Finding Strength, Courage

2:05

and Wisdom in Any Moment, is wonderful

2:07

and Goodness knows we can use some strength,

2:10

courage and wisdom collectively

2:12

right now. So we'll jump into all that in a minute.

2:14

But let's start like we always do, with a parable.

2:16

There's a grandmother who's talking with her

2:18

grandson and she says, in life, there are two

2:21

wolves inside of us that are always at battle.

2:23

One is a good wolf, which represents things

2:26

like kindness and bravery and love,

2:28

and the other is a bad wolf, which represents

2:30

things like greed and hatred and fear.

2:33

And the grandson stops and he thinks about it

2:35

for a second. He looks up at his grandmother. He says, grandmother,

2:37

which one wins, and the grandmother

2:40

says the one you feed. So I'd

2:42

like to start off by asking you what that

2:44

parable means to you in your life

2:46

and in the work that you do. Yeah, I love

2:48

that parable. I've used it in

2:51

talks and it's just so relevant, I

2:53

think from my life right now. It really

2:55

is, especially during these times.

2:58

Is every day, what are you using

3:00

to focus on? You know, there's

3:02

so much fear and anxiety around

3:04

us, and you know, but yet we can focus

3:07

on our practices, we can focus

3:09

on helping people, we can focus on

3:12

positive energy. It's really a choice.

3:14

You know, Heaven and hell's right there and

3:17

it's just a mind state away for most

3:19

of us. So choosing to

3:22

practice and to follow

3:24

a path that leads to happiness.

3:26

So that's really what the parable is about. Who

3:28

wants to be a bad wolf? In a way? It's

3:30

kind of suffering in that path actually, right

3:33

right, Yeah, I want to jump right

3:36

in kind of with a

3:38

little bit of what's happening in the world right now.

3:40

And I'm always really interested in

3:42

I'm just framing this up for kind of the overarching

3:45

ideas. I'm always really interested

3:47

in the role and the balance between

3:50

action and contemplation, you

3:52

know, between our our internal

3:54

practice and our outer work in the world.

3:56

Right, And you give a really compelling

3:59

story near the end of your

4:01

book where you talk about

4:04

very shortly after Trump was elected

4:06

at your sanga in Oakland, which

4:08

is primarily a sanga that

4:11

has a lot of people of color, a

4:13

lot of people who probably felt very disenfranchised

4:16

by the results of that election, and

4:18

that you've got two d people in the room and

4:21

you guys are working on your practice, and outside,

4:24

you know, people are starting to riot

4:26

and protest. And I thought that was

4:28

a really powerful encapsulation

4:31

of these two energies in us, the

4:33

energy to practice to do

4:35

our internal work as well as the external

4:38

work that happens out in the world. And so I

4:40

just kind of would like to start there with you

4:42

and how you balance and think

4:45

about those two aspects of life.

4:47

Yeah, I mean that's really a very powerful

4:50

question, and I think in spiritual

4:52

communities people don't know how to balance

4:54

that all the time. Right there, They

4:56

maybe take a stance of, oh, well,

4:58

I'm being a quantum is so I'll

5:01

just stay here and meditate and

5:04

um, you know, I sort of ignore the

5:06

relative reality. I'll go to the cosmic

5:10

reality, ultimate reality, which is

5:12

true. Right, we have these two truths

5:14

that we have to navigate,

5:17

which is this conventional karmic

5:19

level, and then we do have we

5:21

are made of stars, we are just energy,

5:24

so we really have to balance

5:26

that and I think that that's really key.

5:29

And in the British tradition they talk about

5:31

these two great truths and you have to live

5:34

in that paradigm of this earth,

5:36

experience this relative level

5:39

social security, numbers, police

5:41

brutality. You know, you can't escape

5:43

that if you live too much and

5:46

ultimate reality, you tend

5:49

to be like, well, you know everything's

5:51

changing, why try to do anything? You

5:53

know, who cares about the polar bears? You

5:56

know, everything is everything, and you get

5:58

actually you lose a certain amount of

6:00

compassion. It's not really integrated.

6:03

And then if you're too much in the relative

6:07

karmic level reality, um,

6:09

you can get be too bitter and attached

6:11

and you forget that where the space too.

6:13

You know that this is just a moment

6:16

in time, and we get too

6:18

attached and to fixated on that

6:20

being the only truth. So in

6:22

some ways I try to have my foot

6:24

in both worlds here and

6:27

often my motivation to

6:29

go out into the world and do things.

6:32

Is often motivated by compassion, this

6:34

desire that I have to alleviate

6:37

suffering. And when it's internal

6:39

and myself and when it's

6:41

in the community or something's happening,

6:43

you know, so I have to say I'm not doing anything.

6:46

It's compassion that wakes up every day

6:48

in moves. It's an energy that

6:51

it tends to itself.

6:53

It's like if you're sitting there and somebody

6:55

fell down in front of you, your immediate response

6:57

w might be to go grab them, right, like

6:59

like a child or something. You don't have to

7:01

think about that, right, It's just it's

7:04

an energetic response to something

7:06

that's about to happen. And so for

7:08

me, that's really how I experience

7:11

the work that I do in the world. It's

7:13

like I just wake up and the movement is there.

7:15

It's going in that direction, you

7:17

know, to help others or to provide

7:21

support. I care about

7:23

the suffering around and I want

7:25

to try to alleviate it, even

7:27

though it's enormous

7:30

right now. It's like, oh,

7:32

I'll just get my little scoop and start

7:34

digging in, you know, and I just it's

7:37

just how I am. It's just how I'm made.

7:39

I don't even question it anymore. You

7:41

do a really great job in the book, and

7:43

I think it's important to frame up, like

7:46

as a person of color. I think you do a really

7:48

good job of framing up

7:51

these challenges of racism,

7:54

sexism, homophobia, all

7:56

these things that are out there. You've got a couple

7:58

of lines here. You said, we can do our to this work

8:01

by calling on the forces of truth

8:03

and love. That is what we are for. And

8:06

you really talk about in that sense about

8:08

being for something instead

8:10

of against everything. Talk a

8:12

little bit about that, you

8:14

know. I founded the East

8:17

Bay Meditation Center, co founded it

8:19

with some friends almost fourteen years ago, and

8:21

now we're in downtown Oakland. That center

8:23

filled up with the activist movement, right

8:26

so we had people of all, you know,

8:28

feisty and a social justice

8:30

you know place. Oakland has always been

8:33

a sort of a catalyst for social change,

8:36

social movement historically, you know, over

8:38

the last decades. And so I

8:40

had many years working with

8:42

communities of color and activist communities,

8:45

and I saw the high levels

8:47

of burnout and being so rooted

8:49

in the Buddhist tradition. I realized

8:52

that unless you

8:54

you know, you saved the world. Are you say

8:56

you're an environmentalist. You help the world

8:59

because you love it. You want to say the trees,

9:01

love the trees. You're moving from that place,

9:04

not against what's happening.

9:06

It's it's like a different frame of mind

9:08

how we approach our work. Because if we do

9:11

it in a dualistic way, if

9:13

I believe everyone's my enemy,

9:15

and I move with this aggression out

9:18

on the streets or online or

9:20

in the world for a just cause, I'm

9:22

part of the problem of it in an unconscious

9:25

way, and myself suffer. And

9:28

I saw the level of sadness and burnout.

9:30

Many people came to retreats

9:32

or to meet with me or classes,

9:35

and they were just at the brink,

9:37

you know, of breaking down. And

9:39

then that does no one good, you know,

9:42

so challenging in that way.

9:44

Yeah, you talk a lot about forgiveness.

9:47

I'll just read a short section here, he said,

9:49

as an African American woman, practicing forgiveness

9:52

keeps me from being consumed

9:54

by anger. People die from hatred.

9:56

I beg you not to become one of them.

9:59

Forgiving every everyone, for everything is

10:01

my only practice these days. The

10:03

heart wants to be free, and the only way

10:06

is by letting go of the resentments we carry

10:08

from the past, and so that's a

10:10

beautiful sentiment. How does forgiveness

10:13

also blend with still fighting

10:16

for change? Well, again, I really

10:18

have to rely on so many years of

10:20

studying Buddhist psychology, Buddhist

10:23

philosophy, following his holiness

10:25

at Dalai Lama and many Buddhist teachers

10:27

Tick not Han that we're also great

10:30

spiritual practitioners, but great

10:32

activist. You know, his holiness

10:35

leading the people out of Tibet a genocide,

10:38

right or I can look at Nelson Mandela

10:41

in South Africa, or Tick not Han being

10:43

kicked out of this country over you

10:45

know, the Vietnam War and the communism

10:48

and the suffering of the government inflicting

10:50

on people, innocent people, various

10:52

types of human rights abuses.

10:55

And so for me, I really

10:58

model myself after those rate

11:00

elders. The fight really

11:03

within the Buddhist tradition is against greed,

11:05

hatred, and delusion. We are

11:07

uprooting that in all of its forms,

11:09

and that's what we have right now, an epidetic of

11:11

greeds. You know, hatred

11:14

is kind of like whoa, it's unleashed.

11:16

Here we are back in the Civil war times,

11:18

we've gone totally back in time. I mean,

11:20

we're debating Confederate flags soldiers,

11:24

you know, we're back in it.

11:27

And and then just delusion. And

11:29

I mean, look at how much delusions out there.

11:31

You know, it's just conspiracy stories,

11:34

you know. So those are the things

11:37

that as a dharma practitioner,

11:39

as someone who's looking to heal my heart

11:41

and mind, I'm trying to uproot

11:43

those out of the mindstream so I can see

11:46

the truth of the reality, how it is

11:48

right. And I also could say that

11:50

in my many years of practice, I've had

11:52

many spiritual experiences um

11:55

on the Buddhist tradition in South America,

11:57

studying with Shamans, that

11:59

I have had a very profound

12:02

experience of interconnectedness

12:05

that when so deep that I saw

12:07

myself as you know, we're selves

12:10

in the mind of a great being. Where

12:12

do you call it energy or the

12:14

the field or quantum

12:17

theory? Right, and so we

12:19

come from a single source. So I

12:21

think one of the things that people appreciate

12:24

about me that's a little bit different voice

12:27

is that when I'm talking to people, I

12:29

feel the interconnectedness, even if we're

12:31

coming from very different perspectives,

12:33

even if one of my brothers wants to hurt

12:35

me in some way because they don't recognize

12:38

me as connected to them. Right,

12:41

It's somewhat easier for me to have

12:43

a dialogue or hold the

12:45

complexity of it because I see it

12:47

whereas mind states it's not

12:49

so much an individual. It's a movement

12:52

of greed, a movement of hatred,

12:54

a movement of delusion. It's like, you

12:57

know, people are just responding to their minds.

12:59

So I guess in some ways

13:01

those experiences have fundamentally

13:04

changed how I have these conversations.

13:07

And I think it helps because I take

13:09

things far less personally. Even

13:11

though it's painful, doesn't mean it's

13:13

not painful. It just means

13:16

that I don't have that attack back like

13:18

I might have when I was a lot younger. Yeah,

13:21

I love that and that idea of greed,

13:24

hatred and delusion. You know, I'm pretty

13:26

serious Zen practitioner, and we do the

13:28

Great Vows for all and and the second

13:30

one. You know, various translations, but greed,

13:33

hatred, and ignorance rise endlessly.

13:35

You know, they're going to goes on to say and I vowed to abandon

13:37

them, but I love that idea that they rise endlessly

13:40

because it just gives me like, yep, that's what

13:42

happens in me and in others.

13:45

Greed, hatred, It just it just keeps

13:47

coming, you know, and we can transform

13:49

it in ourselves to a certain degree,

13:52

but it's just there. And I just I always

13:54

find that a helpful, helpful reflection.

13:56

And I think you've done a nice job of articulating

13:58

just now and in the book that piece that I'm

14:01

always trying to hold both in mind, which

14:03

is the absolute view that says, hey,

14:06

things are perfect, and perfect

14:08

doesn't mean all good. It just sort

14:10

of means, at least in the way it's often used,

14:13

they're complete, they are as they

14:15

are, you know, but there's a deep underlining

14:18

reality that is okay,

14:20

And we have this really screwed

14:23

up reality that a lot of us existing

14:25

and holding both those things I

14:27

find such an interesting practice.

14:29

But it's the people that can hold both

14:31

that attract me, you know. It's

14:34

the people that can hold both that I look at

14:36

and I go that that's the wisdom

14:38

I want, because if I just have one, I

14:40

think, like you said, if you only have the absolute,

14:43

people do they get very callous to

14:45

me, Like, you know, you just seem

14:47

to not care like, well, yeah, of course

14:49

that awful thing is happening to that person, but that's

14:51

just you know, that's just God and God

14:54

in costume playing out the drama. I'm like, well,

14:57

maybe yes, but also still

14:59

hurt, you know. And then

15:02

people on the other hand go to the other extreme

15:04

and only see the problems. I

15:06

feel like, well, there's a big part of wisdom

15:09

they're missing. So I think you do a think you do

15:11

a really nice job of integrating

15:13

and talking about both those things that I find really

15:15

inspiring. Yeah, and you know, being

15:18

compassionate and being understanding doesn't

15:20

be less active. It means actually you're more

15:22

effective in a lot of ways

15:25

because people can hear you. This has

15:27

to be a revolution of the heart right now.

15:29

And I keep reminding all these

15:31

people involved in the civil rights, this new

15:33

evolution of civil rights, and you know, there's

15:35

a lot of attacking of even teachers,

15:38

and it's like, you, guys,

15:40

this is a heart felt revolution.

15:43

We cannot beat someone into being

15:45

anti racist, you know, it does It's

15:48

never It has to be a deep shift

15:50

in the heart. And so

15:53

I think hopefully we'll will

15:55

move into that sort of second level

15:57

of this experience that we're all have been

16:00

collectively as we grow, you

16:02

know, I hope so too. I see the same

16:05

sorts of things, and I just think hatred

16:07

and despair and anger they're

16:10

just not energies that lead to

16:12

healing of any sort. And they they and

16:14

ultimately, you know, they consume us, you

16:16

know, they destroy us. And so I do

16:18

think, you know, very very similar to you. I think

16:20

it's we've got to find our way to come from

16:23

a strong, centered, heartful place,

16:25

you know what matters to us. You

16:28

know, like you said, what are we fighting for? Not

16:30

always what are we fighting against? Yes,

16:32

and that doesn't mean that means you could stand

16:35

fully out a protest line, but your experience

16:37

is different, right. I like to

16:40

some of the footage I saw yesterday.

16:42

It was of Oregon, a group of mothers out

16:44

there. They were very calm, right,

16:46

They're like, well, the moms are here, you know,

16:49

and they're they you know, and they weren't,

16:51

you know, hitting things or yelling,

16:53

but they were just present. You

16:55

know. That kind of movement is what will

16:58

stop things. And I understand

17:00

all the emotion. I do understand

17:02

all the emotion. It hurts to see what's

17:04

happening, It really really does. We

17:06

want a just world. In our hearts want

17:09

justice and we want everyone to have a

17:11

sense of equality and safety

17:13

and living lives of prosperity

17:16

and freedom. And so it does hurt to see

17:18

what's happening, so we hold

17:20

that as well. You know, you

17:23

were mentioning some of the elders that that

17:25

you have learned from, But

17:27

there's an elder who

17:29

is a great inspiration to you right now that

17:32

I thought we could spend a couple of minutes on who is

17:34

Harriet Tubman. Yes, you know,

17:36

I have this magic going on right

17:38

now with Harriet Tubman. I started

17:40

a couple of months ago, maybe

17:42

just two months ago, where

17:44

it was right before George Floyd

17:47

was killed. It was like maybe two days before

17:49

that, and my sister and I had

17:51

this really weird experience so similar

17:53

to a lot of people were out walking in a neighborhood

17:56

here in California and West Merin

17:58

and a woman where I just hiking walking

18:00

down a road and she really

18:02

started harassing us, telling us there has been

18:05

breakings in the neighborhood. And here my sister are

18:07

like laughing walking and was like,

18:09

whoa we were Actually, I

18:11

can't believe this racism, you

18:13

know, we were just so, I mean, we knew it, but it

18:15

was like and I right after that,

18:18

I had this dream where

18:20

a soul powerful I was running down

18:22

a dark road. And you know how we always

18:24

have in dream analysis, there's always like

18:27

we're being chased, 're falling,

18:29

very classic, right, So I'm being chased

18:32

and um, I'm running down a road and

18:34

I'm I'm holding onto the back of Harriet

18:37

Tubman's jacket and I could

18:39

tell we're being chased, right, is

18:41

that sense of Harriet get

18:43

me out of here. I remember saying that and holding

18:45

onto the back of her jacket and

18:48

she's leading me down this road and it's all dark,

18:50

I can't see anything. We're at night, and I'm just

18:52

trusting her with every ounce of

18:54

my being, like she was navigating, and she says,

18:57

I'm gonna get you out of here. And

18:59

then I had a series of feeling

19:02

her spirit constantly around

19:04

me like I would I would see images

19:07

in my mind. I was constantly thinking

19:09

about her, and I was like, wow, I feel like Harriet

19:11

Tubman Is spirit is with me. And

19:14

so you know, for me being also a shamanic

19:16

practitioner, that's not that bar fetch.

19:19

But so I was talking to

19:21

a friend and I said, you know, I feel so inspired

19:23

by Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad.

19:26

I'm gonna do a five week class called

19:28

the Dharma of Harriet Tubman and the

19:30

Underground Railroad. Right, and we Buddhism,

19:33

you know, Saidharta Gtanama leading to freedom,

19:36

Harriet Tubman leading people out of

19:38

you know, down the underground railroad.

19:40

And I just started studying and the

19:42

class was such a big deal. Hundreds

19:44

of people were on the zoom, people

19:47

were forwarding it, loving it. And

19:49

then so I decided to continue.

19:52

So I have a Sunday class and I named it the

19:54

Church of Harriet Tubman bringing together

19:56

Dharma and social justice, right.

19:59

And I talk about Harriet Tubman

20:01

in a way that is

20:04

uplifting because what I feel

20:07

is that people that Harriet we can embody.

20:09

But the spirit of being conductors.

20:12

Isn't that what we have to be right now? Either you're

20:14

a conductor in your living room with your family,

20:17

or maybe you're leading a class, but

20:19

how do we become conductors? So it

20:22

was a very uplifting way

20:24

to to share information

20:27

about how to stand up with dharma,

20:29

with embodying the quality

20:31

of courage you want to talk about a fierce

20:33

heart. My god, I cannot believe

20:36

the stories about Harriet's life

20:38

are I mean, I would have thought they were

20:40

made up. I mean, I really don't.

20:42

I can't imagine a more powerful body

20:45

slide. But actually so I've been very

20:47

inspired by Harriet, and I get letters

20:49

from people telling me their kids are dreaming

20:52

about Harriet and there and there's a

20:54

whole wave of her energy. You know, she

20:57

was supposed to be on the twenty dollar bill.

20:59

I was going to say, yeah, maybe we'll get our twenty

21:01

dollar bill, which seems

21:04

weird and cool at the same time. When

21:06

you look at the actual bill you can google

21:08

it and you can see the mock up. It's like, wow,

21:11

that is a mine vendor

21:13

right to love

21:16

it. Yeah, So I'm encouraging

21:20

people to connect to their ancestors

21:23

and these great ancestors

21:25

of ours because there's so many

21:27

people I'm learning about, you know, right now,

21:29

we're studying history, right

21:32

we're learning about who is that statue

21:34

over there? Wait? Why? Who? Why do we have a slave

21:36

trader on the top of the library, and

21:39

you know, Minnesota or whatever, And

21:41

it's just something very joyful. So

21:43

it's full of gospel music, great

21:46

dharma. We're evoking

21:48

the power of Harriet, and everyone's

21:50

feeling in power. So that's the idea,

21:53

not to feel deflated. Send

21:55

me the link and we'll put it in the show notes

21:57

for sure, because I feel like there's a mission

22:00

and right now to stop people from falling

22:02

into despair, yes, and to give

22:04

the mind something positive. Even

22:06

my mind needed this. And then my publisher

22:09

got on the call just to come on

22:11

the class and said, oh my god, you've got to

22:13

write a book about this. So now I'm writing this book

22:15

about me and Harriet, and that's

22:18

great. That's great. So it will continue

22:21

on my journey with this great ancestor

22:23

that everyone should just check out and

22:25

be inspired by. So transitioning

22:28

more to our interior lives a little bit.

22:30

You use a phrase in the book often

22:32

that one of your core teachers,

22:34

Jack Cornfield, uses all the time, which is

22:36

one of my favorite phrases to reflect upon,

22:39

which is the ten thousand joys

22:41

and the ten thousand sorrows.

22:43

And you say none of us is

22:45

free from either. Yeah, I

22:47

mean it's so true. No matter who

22:49

you are, if you're rich, you've got rich people's

22:51

sorrows of your poor, You've got more people's

22:53

sorrows. No one is exempt.

22:56

We're all living these lives that are impermanent

22:59

and material. Reality will never lead

23:01

to freedom. We know that. So now how

23:03

much you buy or surround yourself with.

23:06

You know, we have these experiences. People

23:08

we love die. There's change, you

23:11

know, times of loss, times of gain,

23:14

times of being attacked, times of being

23:16

worshiped. You know, we have this complexity,

23:19

don't we. It's never just all

23:22

good. Yeah. I just

23:24

find that such a helpful reflection,

23:26

like, yeah, we all get the ten

23:28

thousand joys in the ten thousand sorrows.

23:30

Like it just normalizes

23:32

it for when we're struggling. It

23:35

just goes, oh yeah, this is what happens.

23:37

Yeah, and it it humanizes us. I

23:39

mean, we have one seven billion people on the planet,

23:42

all just trying to be happy,

23:44

and we all have similar setbacks.

23:47

Some deal with way more though, I will

23:49

be honest, the challenges are enormous

23:52

and sometimes somebody could have everything

23:54

in the world and have the most suffering mind.

23:57

You know. It's again you get

23:59

this bird and by being born and

24:01

living this experience. And that's why I

24:03

always say it's school to deal with it whole

24:05

life is school, you know. And these

24:08

hard chapters that were on right now,

24:11

um, you know soon they'll be joyful

24:13

chapters. And some are having joy in the midst

24:15

of all of this, you know, some feel excited.

24:18

You know, I can see that position very

24:20

much. Your

25:01

book is called A Fierce Heart, and one of the

25:03

things that you say is that cultivating a fierce heart

25:06

is about learning to embrace it all, even

25:08

the most painful aspects of our lives,

25:11

and that we have to open up to everything in order

25:13

to transform it. And so I wanted to

25:15

spend a little bit of time talking about that because

25:17

one of the questions I'm always so interested

25:19

in is, really, difficulty

25:23

tends to do one of two things to people

25:25

a lot of difficulty. It tends to either transform

25:28

them into more powerful, more compassionate,

25:31

and better people, or it makes them bitter

25:33

and mean and broken. And

25:36

I'd love to talk about in your

25:38

mind, what causes somebody

25:40

to be able to go down that path of transformation

25:44

versus the path of sort of being

25:46

defeated by our difficulties. Well,

25:48

I have one word for that that I've seen

25:50

in a lot of people, because often I'm very interested

25:53

in that because don't We love a hero story.

25:55

We love the story of the beating down the

25:57

one against all the odds that you know,

26:00

shot up out of the you know, mud

26:03

kind of thing, and we love that. That's

26:05

very archetypal in our Western

26:07

mythology, you know, and we love

26:09

that. Faith, to me is

26:11

a determining factor in how

26:13

you deal with challenges. If you have

26:16

faith that your life, that the universe

26:18

is a loving place, that everything

26:21

is for your growth, that there's a

26:23

law, that we're surrounded in love

26:25

and compassion. If you have

26:28

some faith in that, you will grow

26:30

from the experience. If you find

26:32

that you have no faith, maybe

26:35

someone doesn't believe in anything, non

26:37

existence, nothing matters, love

26:39

doesn't exist, then that experience

26:42

will turn you very bitter. You'll follow

26:44

the bad wolf path, and you will act out

26:46

and create more pain and suffering. But

26:48

if you can use that trauma or that

26:51

abuse as something and you believe

26:53

that there is a loving force,

26:55

I think that's the key to it. When

26:57

people really believe that they can all often

27:00

not all the times, but click into

27:02

using that difficulty, overcoming

27:04

that difficulty, and then actually using

27:07

that as a catalyst to create

27:10

change in their community themselves.

27:13

How they see themselves the work they do.

27:15

So for me, that's a big factor that I

27:17

see in people up all face any

27:20

you know, Buddhism, Hindu, Muslim,

27:22

Christian. If you can find that,

27:26

you will rise out of it and you

27:28

will learn, and you will grow, and you'll be better

27:30

for that difficult experience. No matter how

27:32

bad it was, even if it takes you twenty years

27:34

to heal from it, you'll see it

27:37

as an experience that was important.

27:39

Even if it was traumatic, you'll

27:42

see it as a it was a shifting moment.

27:44

The life changed in that moment, and there was

27:46

a road and we go left or we go

27:49

right. Very clearly, from that, we spiral

27:51

down or we spiral up, you

27:53

know, and maybe we go down and then up. You

27:55

know, that's okay, it's okay to go

27:58

rock bottom. Sometimes that's a beautiful road

28:00

to right. We have to bottom. All

28:02

there's only one place from the bottom, right,

28:05

And a lot of people go down the dark path.

28:07

There's there's important teachings

28:09

on the dark path too, you know, the path of

28:12

you know, suffering and pain. You

28:14

you can learn there. But faith

28:17

for me, faith

28:19

and something bigger that's good.

28:22

You know, that is a huge

28:24

motivation, and I have tremendous faith. And you

28:27

know what, as Dr King says, the long arm

28:29

of the universe bends towards

28:31

justice, a long arc

28:34

bends towards you know, and so we just

28:36

have to hang in there. And faith

28:38

also gives us patience. When

28:40

I have faith, I'm going to to be patient and

28:42

try to take it slow and be

28:45

patient with my difficulties and my

28:47

suffering and the burdens that are, you

28:49

know, the things that happen that we don't want.

28:51

We have patience knowing things

28:53

will change. That is the nature

28:56

of this experience. Nothing stays

28:58

the same. So we have this divine

29:00

patients that faith brings with

29:02

that. I think faith is a really interesting

29:05

thing. And you said something just there, and you

29:07

say it several times in your book, and

29:09

every time I hear it, there's an instant sort

29:11

of rebellion against it, right, And it's

29:14

this idea that the universe

29:16

is for us, because

29:19

when we look at the world, we see

29:21

lots of really awful things, right, and

29:23

we can see lots of instances

29:25

like they were, you know, serially abused

29:28

as a child and murdered at nine, Like okay,

29:31

it doesn't seem like they got the chance. So

29:34

I also know I think in a lot of Buddhist

29:36

cosmologies there is a there's

29:39

the idea that this goes on over and

29:41

over through lifetimes. And is that where part

29:43

of your feeling of good and faith

29:45

comes from? Is that if we only see

29:47

it through this very short window of

29:49

time, we might go, well,

29:52

it's hard to see how any things are working for the

29:54

good for us. But if we look at

29:56

it with the longer timeline, and that timeline might

29:58

even encompass multiple life lines, is

30:00

that sort of where you get that faith? Yeah?

30:03

I do. You know, I really do

30:05

believe that the universe

30:07

everything unfolds lawfully,

30:10

and i've and deeply the core

30:13

of the dorma is this lawful unfolding

30:15

of seeds we plant, grow and

30:18

who we can't really understand for all

30:20

of us, who can fathom an eight year old

30:22

being born and being abused a whole life in dying?

30:25

Right? What causes that? And

30:27

then what causes an eight year old to be born in a

30:29

beautiful home and given all the opportunities,

30:32

Well, I really think it does have

30:34

to do with the lawful unfolding

30:37

seeds brout. Now, this doesn't mean

30:39

that we don't care about the eight year old

30:42

karma unfolds as it should due

30:45

to causes and conditions. How do I know

30:47

that the president is supposed to be the president right

30:49

now? That's what's happening right It's like

30:51

there's a way in which we rest

30:54

back and we trust that

30:56

things are unfolding. Doesn't

30:58

mean we don't stand up though. And

31:01

I do believe in the concept

31:04

of Buddha nature. I remember I was

31:06

at my first dharma retreat I ever had

31:08

with Jack Cornfield. I was like, this was twenty

31:10

five years ago or something. He

31:13

gave a dharma talk the first night at a ten day

31:15

retreat and he said, you know, he

31:17

came out and he said, oh, nobly born. Those

31:20

of you don't know Jack Cornfield, maybe

31:22

look him up. He's a great Buddhist based

31:24

teacher here in the Bay Area and just wonderful

31:27

in so many ways, psychologist and

31:30

kind of like a shaman in his own way. He

31:33

said, oh, nobly born, remember who

31:36

you are. You're the daughters and sons

31:38

of the awakened ones. And he gave

31:40

a talk on Buddha nature, and it was like,

31:43

you know, I love that view of we're all

31:46

awake we forgot though

31:48

you know, it's not like kind of like original sin.

31:50

You're born bad and you could crawl on your

31:53

knees for a thousand years, it will never be enough,

31:55

right, But it was this idea that, wow,

31:58

you know, I'm asleep because

32:00

I could see those moments of Buddha nature

32:02

every now and again, like this expanse

32:04

of love or this, you know, but then it gets

32:07

obscured. So I do believe because

32:09

of that innate quality,

32:11

even though it's so buried in

32:14

some people and all there is this great hate

32:16

and delusion, right, we know that gets in

32:18

a way. But because of Buddha

32:20

nature and because of things happening,

32:22

I believe lawfully. And

32:24

that's why I think I'm okay with what's happening,

32:26

even though it's painful, even though I'm trying my

32:28

best to help, I see

32:31

that it's due to causes and conditions

32:33

far greater, vast

32:36

time. This is one chapter and a great

32:38

book. The matrix has been here

32:40

forever, I think, right, and so

32:42

here we are. So I'm sorry the matrix

32:45

circling again and again and again. I

32:47

mean, I I don't think in some level of people can

32:49

resonate with that been here done

32:51

that feeling, you know, like have

32:54

we doesn't seem like we've been dealing with the racism

32:56

for return. I mean we're just looking at

32:58

history. It's like, oh, yeah we have. You

33:01

know, we've gotten hundreds and hundreds of years

33:03

now and here we are in this moment, same place.

33:05

Wow, full circle. So

33:08

I do have faith because of that. And

33:10

maybe it's just my heart that believes

33:12

in it, not my mind. It's just

33:14

like with my heart, I know that being

33:17

kind and being just and compassionate

33:19

is freedom. I just know it. Yeah.

33:22

Yeah, I think that's a great way to say it

33:24

is that my mind also can

33:26

get very lost in looking at

33:29

all the problems and going well, wow, can

33:31

that be? And you know, I've told this story

33:33

not it's not a story, but I've given this analogy

33:35

on the show before. It always works for me because when I try

33:37

and think about, like what's the meaning of life? If

33:39

you try and approach it intellectually, you can't

33:42

because you're like, well, I'm one speck of

33:44

a dust on a speck of a dust that

33:46

exists for you know, a

33:49

flash of a second. How could any of that matter?

33:51

And you made this analogy a little bit earlier.

33:53

But like I walked outside my door and there was a

33:55

dog laying there who had been hit by a car,

33:57

Like I would know I had to take

34:00

care of that dog. And no intellectual

34:02

argument, no amount of philosophy, no amount

34:05

of anything could convince me that it didn't matter

34:07

to take care of the dog. And so that

34:10

meaning for me has to come from

34:13

a deeper place, the sense that it

34:15

matters, that things matter. Yes,

34:17

And I think that so many of our troubles

34:19

in this Western world. You know, I spend half the

34:22

year in South America. Mostly I would be

34:24

living there now had all this not happened. But

34:26

I'm happy to be here in this time working

34:28

on what I'm working on. It's a joy for me

34:30

to do that. But one

34:32

of the problem is is that I think in the US

34:35

we're very disassociated from

34:37

the heart. Right. We live

34:39

in our mind full of ideas and

34:41

concepts and who's doing what, and we're monitoring

34:44

everyone else. We don't live in the

34:46

body here, you know.

34:48

Like I was talking to some friends in Ecuador

34:51

and they look on our news and they see, you

34:53

know, the protests of people against masks,

34:55

and they said, but isn't it just the kind thing to

34:57

do, even if you don't believe it, you just it's

35:00

just like you just do it because you care about others,

35:02

you know, because they care about it, or you know, it's

35:04

just it's like a lack of connection.

35:07

And I feel that even in the Buddhist communities

35:10

that can be this coldness where we just it

35:12

becomes intellectual study,

35:15

but it's not going into

35:17

the deeper layers of the body. For a

35:19

real change to happen right now, for

35:21

people to stand up to what's happening,

35:23

for people to feel empowered, the heart

35:26

has to feel it. You know. That's

35:28

what takes you out into the world. You feel

35:30

that push. It's not a thought, it's just

35:32

a movement. The body has it.

35:35

It just gets up and there you are. You're helping

35:37

the dog. You didn't even have to think about it. You're getting

35:39

the dog. You're moving. We have to be

35:41

moved more from that place than all

35:43

these head games that the eco mind

35:46

plays endlessly. Now,

35:48

it's sad. It's like we're lost in the story.

35:51

That's the delusion part. You know. It's like

35:53

there's so much delusion and it's like, okay,

35:55

you know, when let's just take care of

35:58

each other. That's so basic. Why

36:01

is it so hard? That's the ego? It's

36:04

so hard to just be kind, you

36:37

say. Whenever I feel hurt or triggered, I get

36:39

down on my knees and ask to see the

36:42

lesson. What is this painful situation

36:44

showing me? And when I inquire

36:46

with sincere interest in knowing,

36:49

things that have been hidden reveal themselves

36:51

and circumstances change. And

36:53

I just love that because I do think that that's

36:55

another one of the things that helps us transform

36:58

difficulty and to grow is

37:00

to really, at least without using

37:02

the idea that we're growing as a way to bypass

37:04

the difficult situation, but if

37:07

we can at least orient that way a little

37:09

bit, all of a sudden, are suffering has

37:11

some meaning. And when it has meaning,

37:14

it seems to have the opportunity to

37:16

be transformative. Absolutely.

37:18

I mean, I really believe that when I'm the

37:20

most triggered by someone something

37:23

has happened and I just feel crushed

37:26

or or a very emotional

37:29

or angry, it's like, well, wow, what is that?

37:31

I get curious and

37:33

I have a curiosity about my own

37:35

mind, you know, when there's something that's just

37:37

caught you know, and I'm just playing it again, and

37:40

I did that, and I did that. And if I just settle

37:43

into the body again, out

37:45

of the mind, but into the body,

37:48

and I can listen and feel the

37:50

energy, feel the rage, feel the

37:52

fear, feel the outrage or the

37:55

sadness that can accompany that. If

37:57

I can drop into the body and become

37:59

mine, feel of the energy of my body

38:02

and keep inquiring what is the

38:04

nature of this pain, like where what

38:07

is being not seen here?

38:09

I will find usually a huge

38:11

attachment to something, and then

38:13

I'd love to find these blocks in my

38:15

heart. I celebrate it, you know. It's

38:17

like get a tangle out, you know. It's like

38:20

I'm attached at this and I

38:22

want that, you know, and I can find it, and

38:24

then usually I can really investigate

38:26

that through inquiry, like what

38:28

do I think that's going to get or and I can usually

38:31

see some big piece of just me,

38:33

me me, I I I That's what

38:35

I want, you know. So it's like if

38:37

you're willing to investigate. And but

38:39

I'm also not so afraid of difficult

38:42

emotions as much as I used to be. Some people

38:44

are terrified of feeling anything,

38:47

right, I mean, is that what we're most scared of Eric

38:49

is our emotions seem to be I

38:52

mean, the worst thing that happens to us is thoughts

38:54

and emotions for most people, and we're terrified.

38:57

I don't want to feel that. No, And

39:00

I think I understand that you

39:02

have to get used to it. You

39:04

have to get used to feeling. You

39:07

won't grow unless you're unless you

39:09

start to be willing to feel. And you

39:11

know so many people are so numb, you

39:14

know, Yeah, And you talk about

39:16

that in a really helpful way, because you

39:18

know, my bigger challenge that I've

39:20

experienced through my adult life

39:22

has probably been more depression,

39:25

and depression is more of a numbness,

39:27

right, And and I love that you

39:29

talk about I've got the actual quote

39:32

here. You said numbness has to be met with

39:34

the same loving self care with

39:37

which we meet anything else. This

39:39

is a powerful practice. You're learning to feel

39:41

embody and open. And I love that

39:44

idea of how do I meet numbness?

39:46

What is that? Actually? Like? Investigating

39:49

it more closely, I find it a harder

39:52

one to work with because strong

39:54

emotion is easy for me to sort of

39:56

just I'm like, okay, I've got a lot of colors

39:58

to work with. Here. You know, I'm like doing at

40:00

painting and I'm like, okay, I've got a lot of good colors,

40:02

and then numbness. I'm like, oh, well, I have

40:05

gray. I've got to make this painting out

40:07

of gray. That's a harder painting

40:09

to make. I loved what you said about

40:11

that. The way to deal with it is the same

40:13

loving self care. Yeah, we have to

40:16

be able to develop compassion, you

40:18

know, And numbness happens in a lot of places.

40:20

It comes out a lot of relationships,

40:23

right, and we marry someone and then we

40:25

feel numb. We don't we don't feel anything,

40:27

we see things going. We become desensitized

40:30

to everything, and it's just like,

40:33

you know what it is is. It's just a defense

40:35

of the heart and mind. It comes a

40:37

lot from people who have had trauma. They

40:40

just disassociate. They're just not

40:42

there, They're numb, they're disassociate,

40:45

can't feel what. They have a hard time

40:47

with empathy in those moments. That's when

40:49

people like that are harsh on others for

40:51

feeling right, and so they

40:54

are learning. You have to be willing

40:56

to explore your spiritual

40:58

life. You have to be willing to put yourself out

41:01

there you can't as listen to

41:03

other people's spiritual lives. You've got to put it

41:05

in a practice. You gotta get on your

41:07

road, you know, getting your boat and start

41:10

you know, navigating down the river, and

41:12

can be hard. It will you'll face emotion

41:15

and you'll face the parts that are um and if

41:17

you can develop compassion, that's

41:19

when things get really interesting. You

41:22

know, self compassion. I'm not talking about compassion

41:24

for other people. It has to be rooted in how

41:26

you respond to yourself. More

41:28

and more I find that lesson

41:31

so important, and it's one

41:33

that I feel like somewhere along the line

41:35

I learned fairly well self

41:38

compassion. And as I work with a lot

41:40

of people through coaching programs and different things,

41:42

and I just more and more I just keep seeing how

41:44

important that element is.

41:46

You know how important self compassion is

41:48

in not just because it feels better

41:50

because it does, but also in actually

41:52

being able to transform and change. It's

41:55

a really key element. I mean, I

41:57

didn't understand how deep compassion was

41:59

when I was very My Tibetan teachers,

42:01

you know, that is a core practice.

42:04

My teacher means you're rimpoche did

42:06

two three or compassion retreats, you

42:08

know, and they used always like a bag

42:11

and a passion, and you know, first we don't

42:13

know what it means, and we're just kind of imitating,

42:15

right, We're like, okay, I have compassion. Okay, I'm

42:17

gonna try. I'm gonna try. But over

42:19

time you start to see that it's a skillful

42:23

response, that it is the

42:25

most skillful response. Now again, it doesn't

42:27

mean that action is not required. No,

42:30

you can feel tremendous compassion and

42:32

then immediately follow through with actions

42:34

that need to happen internally and externally

42:37

again but internally to

42:39

be able to meet your

42:41

pain with some degree

42:44

of friendliness or care. You

42:47

know, this is unbelievably hard for people.

42:49

Eric I taught, you know, retreats

42:51

on compassion and loving kindness meta,

42:54

and it was an all owed battle for

42:56

some people. It was like, I

42:58

can't feel anything. Bring

43:00

day after day, you know, I'd be meeting with students.

43:03

I'm just frozen. I

43:05

can do it for my cat, but not me. It's

43:07

a little alarming, actually, when you

43:09

look into someone's eyes and you know they have all

43:11

those symptoms anxiety, depression,

43:15

not despaired, not wanting to

43:17

live, you know, and so how

43:19

do we get that movement

43:22

happening? Because people don't grow up with these

43:24

teachings on compassion at all.

43:27

This is I can't really blame them. That's

43:29

not what you're learning as a child. Most

43:31

people, you know, we don't learn that in high school

43:33

compassion class, you know, seventh

43:35

period. Let's practice that really

43:37

comes through search. It's

43:40

not something we medicate people

43:42

here. We you know, doctor

43:44

them in other ways, but we don't know emotional

43:47

intelligence. And I think that

43:49

that is coming. I have

43:51

a feeling a mental state of

43:53

these people in this country is going to get

43:55

so much more fragile. And

43:58

how do we meet that? How do we help

44:00

that? I agree you say

44:02

that as wisdom grows, we see

44:04

that we can't control life's unpredictability,

44:07

no matter how hard we try.

44:10

People who crave control have the

44:12

hardest time on this path because

44:14

the whole journey is about letting

44:16

go. It's so true. Control

44:18

freaks can't meditate. There's not a lot

44:21

of faith. I have to do it. Nothing's

44:23

gonna just happen on its own. There is no flow

44:25

to this, there's no intelligence behind

44:27

anything. I'm the intelligence. I'm the

44:29

doer, you know, and that mind

44:32

is the most difficult on a

44:34

spiritual path and the most difficult

44:36

to break through, you know,

44:38

to see that, you know, there is this profound

44:40

intelligence happening right now in our

44:42

bodies. There's incredible intelligence happening.

44:45

Right. It's like it's everywhere. It's well at

44:47

the spheres intelligence right,

44:49

how the sun rises in the moon and

44:52

rises in the time, and everything's connected,

44:54

working together, But people

44:57

don't feel connected to that. And I think

45:00

one of the biggest core wounds is this separation

45:03

from source, a separation from the

45:05

tribe on some level, right,

45:07

this constant feeling of I don't

45:10

belong, I'm not included. You

45:13

know. I was talking to my friend Alberto

45:15

Velodo, a shaman from Chile,

45:18

written a lot of books on all these topics,

45:20

and he said, we were having a conversation. I said,

45:22

what do you think it is in the Western mind has

45:25

so rooted in the suffering?

45:27

He said, oh, it's their mythology

45:29

and I was like, well, what do you mean by that? He said,

45:31

well, think about the Western mythology.

45:34

Where does the story start. Adam

45:36

and E thrown out of heaven, and

45:38

that's where the begins. We're outside

45:40

of something and we feel this kind of

45:43

bizarre separation

45:45

all the time. That leads to the overheightened

45:47

control in this despair of where

45:50

do I belong? You know, this

45:52

loneliness from that. Yeah,

45:54

yeah, I think control is such a big

45:57

thing, and you're right. This has been a big part

45:59

of my journey the last really

46:01

the last couple of years more so, is

46:04

really like what do I trust

46:06

in? What do I have faith in?

46:08

You know, we really have to find that for ourselves.

46:11

What is it that I trust

46:13

in that I have faith in, not what somebody else

46:15

trusts in, not what somebody tells me I should,

46:17

And sometimes we have to start really basic with that.

46:19

I remember when I came back to a the second time.

46:21

I had been sober about eight years and things

46:24

went really wrong in my life with a divorce,

46:26

and I sort of had this fake faith.

46:29

I tried to believe what people told me I needed

46:31

to believe in order to get sober, and I got sober,

46:34

but when things got really hard, I realized that faith

46:36

that wasn't there. And when I came back, I was like, I've got

46:38

to find my own faith. I don't know what I believe,

46:40

and I had to start kind of small, like, well,

46:43

I believe in this

46:45

group of people that if I'm around this group

46:47

of people, I'll do better. Oh, I believe

46:49

in you know, and I just found my

46:51

way. But it's a question that comes up again

46:53

and again for me because I think you're right.

46:55

There is this weird balance in the

46:57

spiritual life of you know and

47:00

Zen we talked about. We talk about

47:02

great faith, great doubt, and great

47:04

determination, and I find

47:06

all three. I find all three of them interested. And

47:08

what you're describing is a lot of people approach

47:11

the spiritual path with the great determination.

47:13

You've got to have that. You've got to have a determination

47:16

that says I'm gonna practice, I'm gonna do this,

47:18

I'm as you said, I'm gonna get in my own boat

47:20

and I'm gonna row. Like there's an amount we

47:22

have to bring of ourselves to that. But

47:24

then there's also the great faith that we have to have

47:26

and what is that faith in? And I think that's such an important

47:29

point because it's hard. Control is one of those things

47:31

in in a we used to say all the time, you know, let

47:33

go and let God and I

47:35

and I would go, But I don't believe in God.

47:38

I don't believe that if I let go of this, anything's

47:40

gonna pick up. Like if I set the relay

47:42

baton down, I don't have any faith anything is going

47:44

to pick it up. And then I finally

47:47

hit a point where I went, well, you know what, it's

47:49

just putting it down that's important. Even

47:53

if nothing picks it up, it's better than me

47:56

crushing it in my hand, you know, like

47:58

it's the holding on that makes me sick. And

48:00

so I think that that control

48:03

what you said there is so important because the whole

48:05

journey is about letting go, and I think I just

48:07

keep sort of learning that for myself,

48:09

like more and more unlearning letting

48:12

go, letting things fall away.

48:14

I completely agree with you. And you

48:16

know, for people who are just starting and thinking

48:19

about the word faith and thinking it has a set

48:21

definition, you know, that's something scary.

48:23

That word is intense. You know, it's like, oh

48:26

no, here comes the is

48:28

gonna hit me in the head. I went through all that,

48:30

you know, but I look at it as like just

48:33

faith in the good of my

48:35

own heart. It's also like everything you're

48:37

being it's nothing outside.

48:40

It's like you, if everything is

48:42

you, there is nothing but you know your

48:44

experience here it's all our minds, you know.

48:46

But it's like faith that you

48:49

that your heart is good. There's goodness

48:51

there, and I believe in that.

48:54

And I think that's what you said, get me up out

48:56

of bed, you know. It's like, no, I believe in

48:58

this love for myself and others, and

49:00

I'm going to follow that. And

49:02

you could just look at the intelligence of nature.

49:05

Go to nature, take refuge

49:07

there, like the mystery of the

49:09

forest and how everything flows,

49:12

and just sit by the trees and listen

49:14

and you'll start to answer the question.

49:17

Right, it's not going to come

49:20

from outside. It comes from you. It is

49:22

you, you know. And so

49:24

I would take refuge and kindness like

49:26

you know, because plant those

49:28

seeds and they grow, because everything is

49:30

about planting seeds. That's the

49:33

law of causality. You plant that, you

49:35

get that no matter how bad you want something

49:37

else. You can't get apples and

49:39

planting lemon seeds, you know, no matter

49:41

how much you wish for it. You've got to have that

49:44

sense that your life matters, that

49:47

you're part of some cellular living

49:49

system like the trees

49:51

and the forests are all talking to each other

49:53

in different ways. I mean, this is real now, So

49:55

why wouldn't you be connected to that? You

49:58

know, the great mystery you're we're woven

50:00

in. How could we not be? Yeah?

50:03

Yeah, well that is a beautiful

50:05

place to wrap up, have faith in your

50:07

own heart, in nature, and in

50:09

kindness. Beautiful way to wrap it up and

50:11

tie it up. You and I are going to spend a few minutes

50:14

in the post show conversation because I want to talk

50:16

about a line you say that the ultimate

50:18

goal of the spiritual path is to uncover

50:20

the ways we imprison ourselves.

50:23

So I want to talk a little bit about that and

50:26

listeners, if you're interested in the post show

50:28

conversation once a week many

50:30

episodes with me where I share a teaching, a song

50:32

and a poem and the joy of

50:34

supporting the show. You can go to One you Feed dot

50:37

net slash joint spring.

50:39

Thank you so much. It's been so fun to have you back

50:41

on and connect again. Oh it's

50:43

been so great to chat with you and as

50:45

always, it's an honor. I love it. Thank

50:48

you. If

51:04

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