0:00

When we connect with our emotions, our

0:02

emotions actually help us to dept and

0:04

thrive, even the difficult ones. Welcome

0:15

to the one you feed throughout

0:17

time. Great thinkers have recognized the

0:19

importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes

0:21

like garbage in, garbage out,

0:23

or you are what you think ring

0:25

true. And yet for many of

0:27

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

0:30

us. We tend toward negativity,

0:32

self pity, jealousy, or

0:34

fear. We see what we don't have

0:36

instead of what we do. We think

0:39

things that hold us back and dampen our

0:41

spirit. But it's not just about

0:43

thinking. Our actions matter. It

0:45

takes conscious, consistent, and creative

0:47

effort to make a life worth living. This

0:50

podcast is about how other people keep

0:52

themselves moving in the right direction, how

0:54

they feed their good wolf. Thanks

1:11

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:13

is Susan David, a psychologist

1:15

on faculty at Harvard Medical School. Susan

1:18

is also the co founder and co director

1:20

of the Institute of Coaching at McLean

1:23

Hospital and CEO of Evidence

1:25

Based Psychology. Her

1:27

book is Emotional Agility, Get

1:30

Unstuck, Embrace Change and

1:32

Thrive, and Work and Life Hi

1:35

Susan, Welcome to the show. I'm so

1:37

glad to be here. Your book

1:39

is called Emotional Agility, Get

1:42

Unstuck, Embrace change and

1:44

thrive and work and life. And

1:46

as you and I were talking beforehand,

1:48

there are so many great things in here that I think

1:51

are are right up the alley of what listeners

1:53

are looking for. So we'll get into the book

1:55

in detail in a moment, but let's start like

1:57

we always do. There's a

1:59

grand father who's talking with his granddaughter

2:01

and he says, in life, there are two

2:04

wolves inside of us that are always at battle.

2:06

One is a good wolf, which represents

2:08

things like kindness, bravery, and love,

2:11

and the other is a bad wolf, which represents

2:13

things like greed and hatred and fear.

2:16

And the granddaughter stops and thinks about it for a

2:18

second and looks up at her grandfather and she says, well,

2:20

grandfather, which one wins? And

2:23

the grandfather says, the one you feed.

2:26

So I'd like to start off by asking you what that

2:28

parable means to you in your life and

2:30

in the work that you do. So I

2:33

think they're a number of interpretations for that

2:35

in terms of the context of my work. But one

2:37

of the things that I think is most critical is

2:41

the way we view our emotions.

2:44

So often we view and

2:46

we live in a society that tells us that our emotions

2:49

are good or bad, and

2:52

unlike the parable where I

2:54

think you you know, sometimes the interpretation

2:56

could be that one should feed only

2:59

the so called good emotions and push

3:01

aside the so called bad emotions.

3:04

Really, what I think about

3:07

in the context of emotions is that

3:10

we as human beings are big

3:12

enough, expansive enough

3:14

to actually hold the full range

3:17

of our emotions. In other words, it

3:19

is possible for those two wolves to coexist.

3:24

And then we move

3:26

into the space of saying, how

3:28

do we stop ourselves from getting hooked

3:32

or imprisoned by

3:34

emotions that feel difficult to us?

3:37

So, really, the context here or the headline

3:40

is that our emotions fundamentally

3:42

are actually helpful, that they

3:44

are incredibly important guidance

3:46

systems for our lives. And if

3:49

we move away from trying to battle

3:51

with them or decide that they good or

3:53

bad, and instead move into

3:55

the space where we recognize that we are

3:57

able to have all of them,

4:00

then we can learn from,

4:02

we can be guided by, and

4:04

we can move forward in ways that our values

4:07

congruent, and so we are feeding

4:10

the particular wolf in this case, which is

4:12

the emotions that

4:15

signal what's important to our lives, and

4:17

we use that in ways that allow

4:19

us to thrive. And one of the themes of

4:21

the book to me was this idea that

4:23

emotions aren't good or bad. As you said, there

4:25

are a guidance system, and that,

4:28

however, we want to make sure that our

4:30

emotions we have as you call it, emotional

4:33

agility, so that our actions out

4:35

into the world are what we want them to be.

4:37

And so oftentimes, you know, if we could take this parable

4:40

almost to be about how we behave

4:42

less about what our emotions are. Yeah,

4:45

so absolutely, a fundamental idea

4:47

in emotional agility is the idea

4:49

that our emotions exist

4:52

for a reason. And I'm not the first person

4:54

who said this, you know, Charles Dawin

4:57

many hundreds years ago describe

4:59

this idea that emotions are core

5:02

signals, that when we connect

5:04

with our emotions, our emotions actually help

5:07

us to adapt and thrive, even the

5:09

difficult ones. And so we

5:11

are able when we connect with our emotions to

5:13

understand more of other people's

5:15

needs, but we can also understand

5:18

more of our own needs.

5:20

So really this idea that we

5:23

have these emotions, these emotions have extreme

5:26

and wonderful benefits to us,

5:28

But we often get into situations

5:31

in society where

5:34

we have this narrative that there's good emotions

5:36

and bad emotions, that there are negative

5:39

emotions and positive emotions,

5:41

and so what can happen is we can often

5:44

feel that unless we feel positive

5:46

and happy all the time, that there's something

5:48

really fundamentally wrong. And

5:51

we can also move into this where we start

5:54

to then push aside, or

5:56

hustle with, or develop unhealthy

5:59

relationships with our emotions. And

6:01

so a core part of my work is really about

6:03

saying, how can we be

6:06

healthy with our emotions and with our thinking

6:09

and learn from those

6:11

in ways that allow us to in

6:13

action move forwards

6:16

so that we are values connected and congruant.

6:18

Because ultimately, how we deal with our inner

6:20

worlds drives everything every

6:23

aspect of how we love, how we live,

6:25

how we parent, and how we lead. Yeah,

6:27

you see that emotional agility is about loosening

6:30

up, calming down, and living with

6:32

more intention. It's about choosing

6:34

how you respond to your emotional warning

6:37

system. So that's emotional agility.

6:39

Talk to us about the opposite rigidity.

6:42

I'll start off by describing

6:44

what I just think is one of the most profoundly beautiful

6:47

ideas, which is the idea of

6:49

Victor Frankel. Victor Frankel, who survived

6:51

the Death Camps, describes this incredibly

6:54

powerful idea where

6:58

between stimulus and response there

7:00

is a space, and in

7:02

that space is our power to choose,

7:05

and it's in that choice that lies our growth

7:07

and freedom. So when we are being

7:10

emotionally agile, there's space

7:12

between stimulus and response, we

7:14

are connecting with our values and who

7:16

we want to be in that moment, and we are

7:18

moving forward in action. When

7:21

we, on the other hand, are emotionally rigid,

7:24

often what we are doing is not

7:26

having any space between stimulus and

7:28

response. So what this might look

7:30

like is being on autopilot.

7:33

Someone says something and we defensively

7:35

react in the same way time and time again,

7:39

or always

7:41

believing that voice in our head that

7:43

tells us that we are worthless, or

7:46

we weren't cut out for this career, or

7:48

we're not creative or whatever other

7:50

stories. Some of these stories were written on

7:53

our mental chalkboards in grade three,

7:56

and what's wrong is not having

7:58

the story because these

8:00

stories are actually normal. We all have

8:03

thousands of ideas, thoughts, and

8:05

stories and emotions every single day.

8:07

What becomes emotionally rigid or

8:09

emotionally in agile is where we

8:12

automatically believe

8:15

the story and where we automatically

8:17

allow that story to drive

8:20

our actions. So we feel that

8:22

we are worthless and therefore we don't

8:24

extend ourselves in a relationship,

8:27

or we are not creative and so we don't put

8:29

our hand up for a particular job or project,

8:32

even though in our hearts we truly want

8:34

to do it. So emotionally in

8:37

agile people, or when we all

8:39

react in ways that are emotionally in agile, what

8:41

we are tending to do is not have the space between

8:44

stiminus and response. We are

8:46

on autopilot. We automatically

8:49

believe the fourth, the emotionless story

8:52

in a way that takes us away from

8:54

being the person that we most want to be in the world.

8:57

And often what this can also look

8:59

like is even our day to day habits.

9:02

So a habit might be a habit of waking

9:05

up and feeling bad and then

9:07

staying a bit, or a

9:09

habit might be that we

9:12

you know, want to be present and connected

9:14

with our children, but we feel

9:16

so stressed that we get

9:19

stuck in our phones and we have dinner

9:21

every night, but we are distracted with

9:23

our phone rather than being present and connected.

9:26

So some of these are habits that become

9:28

expressed in our day to day lives and that fundamentally

9:30

are in agile because they are not

9:33

reflections of who we most

9:35

want to be in the world. That idea, the

9:37

Victor Frankel quote and phrase, has

9:39

been one of the most fundamental ideas

9:42

in my life. I originally encountered it in Stephen

9:45

Covey's Seven Habits of Highly Effective

9:47

People, which I think is a brilliant book in so many

9:49

ways. And you know, obviously Victor

9:51

Frankel's book Man Search

9:53

for Me and his other work is so powerful. But

9:56

that very idea like unlocked

9:58

something in me years and years ago

10:00

that has always made sense to me. And it's

10:03

just so powerful. I think what it does

10:05

is it moves us away from the idea

10:08

of because I had a thought, the thought

10:10

is fact and I need to act on it. Yeah,

10:13

it's so powerful because what it

10:15

does is it brings into our hearts,

10:17

in our lives a sensible autonomy

10:20

and ownership that

10:22

is just fundamental to

10:25

our ability to thrive. Yep, exactly.

10:28

So let's talk about one of

10:30

the things that happens to us. You referenced

10:32

it briefly about getting

10:34

hooked, you know, which you say,

10:36

getting yourself hooked begins when you accept

10:39

thoughts as facts. So

10:41

let's talk about some of the most

10:43

common hooks and maybe some ways

10:46

to work with those. So,

10:48

yeah, absolutely, so the hooks that we might

10:50

have that relate to our

10:52

emotions, it might be a hook like,

10:55

um, you know, I

10:58

am said, and

11:00

therefore that sadness. While that sadness

11:02

might be a truly expressed experience

11:05

and felt experience, for the moment, the

11:08

sadness becomes fact. And I'll describe

11:10

why I think it's a hook is because

11:12

often what we do when we label our emotions

11:15

with language like I am you know,

11:17

I am sad, I am angry,

11:19

what it does is it implies that we

11:23

all, you know, the one of

11:26

us is that one emotion, you

11:28

know, I am sad, I am angry.

11:30

There's no space for anything

11:32

else. And so often what we do when we identify

11:35

ourselves in full

11:37

with an emotion, there isn't the capacity

11:40

to pause and to breathe in other experiences,

11:44

and so we can often get hooked by an

11:46

emotion. And because we

11:49

are not our emotion, our emotion is

11:51

a data source that is valuable, but a data

11:53

source that nonetheless is there for us to

11:55

understand and evaluate and learn from, we

11:57

don't necessarily need to believe it. We

12:00

can often get hooked into

12:02

our thoughts. A thought might be

12:05

I'm not good enough, or even

12:08

you know, my boss is an idiot. It might

12:10

be something that you truly experience

12:12

as fact, and

12:15

yet it might actually stop you from

12:17

bringing yourself in ways that are open

12:19

hearted, learning oriented and

12:23

growth oriented to your career or

12:25

to your job. So we can often get

12:27

hooked into our emotions our thoughts, and

12:29

then often what we do is we weave our thoughts

12:31

and our emotions into stories. And

12:34

our stories are really important, powerful

12:36

ways that we make sense of our world. But

12:39

often these stories can hold us back. So

12:41

a story might be something like, um,

12:44

you know, I recently was working with a United

12:46

Nations ambassador and

12:49

here's singular focus

12:52

and singular job was

12:54

to bring vaccinations to children

12:57

in a particular country in Africa.

12:59

And this person

13:01

described how as part of his job

13:04

and as part of his purpose, he needed to negotiate

13:07

with a specific politician

13:09

who was in office, and he described

13:12

how this politician made him so

13:14

angry and so upset, and

13:16

he said, you know, this politician treats

13:18

me like my father used to treat

13:21

me, and so I've started to just avoid

13:23

his calls. Now, what's in agile

13:26

and what's the hook here is that

13:28

what this demands is that you've either

13:30

got a new politician in office, which

13:33

is unlikely, or it demands

13:35

that you have a new childhood in which your

13:37

father did inspect you like that, which

13:39

again is unlikely. And so

13:42

what's happening in this kind of situation is

13:44

the person is getting hooked into a story

13:46

where the story starts to prison

13:49

and create a structure that

13:52

hinders the ability to be

13:55

values oriented, or to

13:57

be expensive, to be curious,

14:00

to be compassionate, to say,

14:03

well, who do I want to be in this situation?

14:05

And so we often get hooked, And in my book,

14:07

I outline a number of ways that we

14:09

tend to get hooked. You know, we get stuck

14:12

in the business of our mind and what we

14:14

think is wrong. We often get hooked

14:16

on stories that really about growing their usefulness

14:19

or purposefulness in our lives.

14:22

Um, we get stuck when we move

14:24

from one situation to another and we recognize

14:26

that the thing that might have served

14:28

us when we were a child or in one job

14:31

no longer serves us. So they are different contexts

14:33

in different ways in which we can start

14:35

expressing these hooks. What

15:05

are some useful ways for us to get

15:07

unhooked? And and maybe

15:10

that's different depending on whether it's a thought or

15:12

an emotion, but but what are some of

15:14

the some of the steps that people could

15:16

could start practicing. Now, you

15:19

know, when they recognize like, yep, here I am, I'm

15:21

hooked. I know I am. That's the first

15:23

step recognizing it. But then once you recognize

15:26

it, what what next? So

15:28

one of the things that I think is critical is often

15:30

people say, gee, I get hooked, but I don't really

15:33

realize that I'm getting cooked. You know, I'm suddenly

15:35

defensive, or I suddenly have an argument with

15:37

my spouse and I storm out of

15:39

the room because I'm feeling really upset and

15:42

it comes off God. But

15:44

one of the things I think if we really shot up

15:46

to that is we'll start to recognize

15:48

that actually a lot of our behaviors are

15:50

very pattern and so this defensiveness

15:53

that seems like it's a spur of the moment,

15:56

defensiveness is actually something that

15:58

very often we've seen in you

16:00

know, other contexts in our

16:02

lives or that's actually very pattern And so

16:05

when we start to recognize that this is what's

16:07

going on, that we have this

16:09

way of being or have a

16:12

way of reacting to a particular person that's

16:15

patterned, then we've got a clue that

16:17

this is a sign that unhooked. And it's not an out

16:19

of the blue thing. Actually it's somewhat

16:21

predictable. So there are a couple of

16:23

things that are just really really fundamental.

16:26

The first is what you

16:28

allude to, and it's this idea of showing

16:31

up. And what I mean by showing up

16:34

is not a passive resignation.

16:36

It's not oh my goodness, this is

16:39

what happened to me. It's

16:41

horrible, it's awful, but there's

16:44

nothing I do it. It's not a passive resignation.

16:46

Rather, what it is is it's being

16:49

able to say, you know, this is what's

16:51

going on for me, or this

16:53

is what the hook is, but to do so

16:55

in a way that is um

16:58

curious and compassionate.

17:02

So when we hooked. But we say I wonder

17:05

why I'm reacting in this way, or

17:07

I wonder why it is that I always

17:09

give into the story. Then

17:13

we adopting a stance of curiosity.

17:16

And while the curiosity isn't going

17:18

to solve the problem, what you're starting

17:20

to do in scientific terms, is you're starting

17:22

to take what is called a meta

17:24

view. The meta view is where

17:26

you move from this feeling

17:28

of being immersed and stuck and

17:30

I don't know what to do and this is awful into

17:34

curiosity. I wonder what's going on for me? Gee,

17:37

isn't that interesting that I react in that way?

17:39

So curiosity is really important. The

17:41

other aspect of this is compassion, because

17:45

we live in a world that would have us

17:47

believe that we are in a never ending Iron

17:50

man or Iron woman competition where

17:53

we need to always be hard on

17:55

ourselves, and the

17:57

idea that when we are

18:00

compassionate that somehow it's being weak or

18:02

lazy or letting ourselves off the hook

18:05

is often what's seen as being

18:07

attached to the idea of compassion. But

18:10

if we recognize that we

18:13

hooked in ways that

18:15

are maybe not excusable,

18:17

you know, we might have done something wrong and

18:19

recognize that we've done something wrong, but

18:22

we also recognize that we're

18:24

doing the best we can,

18:27

or we did the best we can with who we

18:29

are, with what we've got,

18:31

with the resources that we've been

18:33

given in life. And we approach

18:35

this orientation of being hooked with a sense

18:38

of compassion and kindness to ourselves that

18:40

were part of humanity, were part of

18:43

the suffering and the imperfection

18:46

that is bound up with humanity. What

18:49

we then do is we move away from

18:51

the space of trying to focus on perfection

18:54

and we instead move into the

18:56

space of an openness to

18:59

how can I bring myself

19:02

in ways that are different to

19:04

the situation. So really

19:07

really important aspect of being

19:10

able to unhook is

19:12

not just about you I've got to be positive or

19:14

I've got to move forward. It's actually about being

19:18

curious and being compassionate

19:20

with the self. Another thing that

19:22

I would say to that is that

19:25

often when we are hooked, especially when

19:27

we're hooked in context of anxiety

19:31

or depression or

19:33

difficult experiences or discomfort, and

19:36

I talk about this in my TED talk The

19:38

Gift and Power of Emotional Courage, we

19:41

often want to do away with those

19:43

difficulty emotions so we want

19:45

to push them aside. And again, we live in a society

19:47

that tells us we should be happy all the time. And

19:50

so what we can start to do is we can start

19:52

to try to push aside

19:54

our sadness and just be happy,

19:57

or push aside our anger. But

20:00

what we know from the research is that that doesn't

20:02

work. When we push

20:05

aside these difficulty emotions,

20:08

what psychologists call amplifications,

20:10

starts to come up. You know, we push aside sadness,

20:13

and then we ask people not to think of

20:16

that sad thought, and as

20:19

it would happen in a minute, in

20:21

one minute, people will on average think

20:23

of that difficult thought around forty times.

20:26

So really important part of showing

20:29

up and of unhooking is

20:31

to approach our emotions

20:35

with a greater sense of willingness. And

20:38

by willingness, what I mean is an

20:40

expansiveness or recognition that

20:44

we don't get to live a meaningful life,

20:46

or build a career or raise a family

20:48

without stress and discomfort, and

20:51

that tough emotions are part of

20:53

our contract with life. And

20:55

so if we can move away from the idea of

20:57

these are good and bad emotions and stead

21:00

start to just embrace the

21:02

full range of our emotions, then

21:05

that's fundamental. But I know that you asked

21:07

for some practical tips, and I think one practical tip

21:09

is really moving away from this idea

21:11

of saying I am sad, I am

21:14

angry, and instead noticing

21:16

the emotion for what it is. I'm

21:19

noticing that I'm feeling sad. I'm

21:22

noticing that I'm feeling angry. I'm

21:24

noticing the urge to stay

21:26

in bed, I'm noticing the urge

21:28

to leave the room. What you start

21:30

doing when you start to notice your thoughts,

21:33

your feelings, your stories for what they are, their thoughts,

21:35

feeling stories. They're not facts, thoughts,

21:37

feelings, and stories. What you start to be able

21:39

to do there is create critical space between

21:42

the stimulus and the response. Right,

21:45

you said so many things there that that are

21:47

are so important. I think that curiosity,

21:50

as you mentioned, is so important, and that

21:52

the kindness and the self compassion is

21:54

critical to being able to be curious.

21:57

There's nothing that tends

21:59

to shut down curiosity

22:01

or observation faster than

22:03

judgment, and so being able

22:06

to suspend that judgment by being

22:08

kind is one of the things I think that allows

22:10

us to be curious. We we have to be

22:13

kind to ourselves in order to be curious.

22:15

I often think that idea of balancing

22:18

accountability and kindness

22:21

to ourselves, how do we be how

22:24

do we sort of stand true for this

22:26

is what I believe, this is how I want to act, this as the

22:28

person I want to be, and also

22:30

then be kind with ourselves, and we don't live

22:32

up to that. And being able to balance those two

22:34

things I think is so important. And

22:36

your your framework sort of gets to

22:39

that. So the if we look at your framework, you talk

22:41

about showing up. That's kind of what you just talked

22:43

about, which is recognizing

22:45

what's happening, being curious and kind. Then

22:48

you talk about stepping out and you

22:50

say that that's the detaching

22:52

from and observing your thoughts and feelings

22:55

to see that that's what they are, thoughts and

22:57

emotions. Um from there you go

22:59

into walk in your why. So let's talk about

23:01

walking your why. So this is critical

23:04

and you know to what you were saying earlier about

23:06

compassion the idea

23:08

that you know when you really are compassionate,

23:11

what you're doing is you are fundamentally

23:14

creating a safe psychological

23:16

space for yourself. And when

23:18

we feel safe with ourselves,

23:20

it doesn't mean we do everything right, it

23:22

doesn't mean that we never disappoint ourselves.

23:25

But when we create a psychological

23:27

space for ourselves in which we see

23:30

ourselves and we

23:33

are kind to ourselves, and we we love

23:35

ourselves regardless of our imperfections.

23:38

What we know from the research is when

23:40

people do that, they actually

23:42

tend to be more honest with themselves,

23:46

less lazy, more motivated

23:49

because they know that they are

23:51

going to be in a context where even if

23:53

they disappoint themselves,

23:56

that they will still like themselves. And

23:58

so that's the beautiful context in

24:00

which curiosity and experimentation

24:04

and openheartedness come

24:06

to the fore. And what that then allows

24:09

us to do is to start bringing in our

24:11

core values. We're starting to say, who do

24:13

I want to be in this situation. And the way that I

24:15

think of values is values

24:17

often have a very cheesy connotation,

24:20

you know, it's often seen as being very abstract

24:23

or the kinds of things that businesses

24:25

put on their walls and tell us to all to believe

24:27

in. But the way that I

24:29

think of values is that there are qualities

24:32

of action. So values

24:35

are not these abstract ideas. Their qualities

24:37

of action. Every

24:39

day we get hundreds

24:41

and hundreds of choice

24:44

points. A choice point

24:46

is a decision do

24:48

I move in the direction of my values

24:52

or do I move away from

24:54

my values. So, in

24:57

an organizational context, the

25:00

choice point might be do I

25:02

contribute to this meeting even

25:05

though I feel scared, or do I

25:07

just shut myself down once again?

25:09

And that's your choice point.

25:12

Your choice point when it comes to health or exercise

25:14

might be do I move towards

25:17

the fruit or do

25:19

I move towards the muffin, And

25:21

the choice point might be that towards the fruit

25:23

is towards my values, and

25:26

the muffin is away from my values. So

25:28

we get these really really important

25:31

So we get these really really important choice

25:33

points every single day.

25:36

And what is just so

25:38

fundamental, I think, especially in a

25:40

world where there's so

25:43

much social comparison that goes

25:45

on. We are inundated

25:48

with our Twitter feeds and with Instagram

25:50

and with comparing ourselves to others,

25:52

and so what starts to happen is all

25:55

of us, as human beings, start to become subject

25:57

to what psychologists call social contagion.

26:00

Social contagion is the

26:03

idea that we all,

26:05

often without even realizing it, catch

26:08

other people's emotions and

26:10

other people's behaviors.

26:12

So, for instance, if you are trying

26:15

to be healthier and

26:17

you go on an airplane and

26:19

your seat partner, your seat

26:22

mate, even if you do not know

26:24

the person buys candy,

26:27

your likelihood of buying candy increases

26:29

by seventy A

26:32

large scale epidemiological studies show

26:34

that if someone in our social

26:36

network gets divorced or

26:39

puts on weight, even if we do

26:41

not even know the person, there might even be two

26:43

or three degrees of separation from us, we

26:46

are more likely to get divorced

26:49

or put away. Now, listeners might say,

26:51

how does that work? But we've all had that experience

26:53

of getting in an elevator

26:55

and someone takes out their cell phone and we take out

26:57

our cell phone, or we guarded an

27:00

and one person orders dessert, and now we

27:02

order dessert. What starts

27:04

to happen is we start

27:06

to, in rarely profound,

27:09

powerful and frightening ways

27:12

catch and I use that word

27:14

purposefully because it is social contagion.

27:18

We catch other people's behaviors,

27:21

and we catch other people's emotions.

27:24

And this, of course is particularly

27:26

salient when we are spending

27:29

time with a particular group of friends.

27:31

All the time, or in a

27:34

situation with colleagues all the time where

27:36

everyone's cynical, we become cynical and so

27:38

on, and so we start to set ourselves

27:41

what is it that actually

27:43

protects me from social

27:46

contagion? And what

27:49

we know is that the

27:51

most powerful way

27:54

that we can be in the world when

27:56

it comes to our own psychological health and

27:58

well being, but also when it comes to our behavior

28:00

and our careers and our parenting, the

28:03

most powerful way we can be in the

28:05

world is where we have a

28:08

straight line of sight to

28:11

our values, regardless

28:14

of what everyone else is doing. What

28:17

is it that is important to me in

28:20

work? It might be learning and growth,

28:22

or it might be at home learning and growth, because

28:25

our values tend to be values across these situations.

28:27

So let me give you an example of what this looks like.

28:31

If you are clear

28:34

that growth and learning

28:36

are fundamental to

28:38

who you are as a person and their core,

28:41

core, core values, you

28:44

can start to apply these values

28:47

even when you feel uncomfortable.

28:49

So you might say, well, I was invited

28:51

to social

28:54

event and I would

28:56

love to go, but actually I feel a little bit

28:58

anxious to go to that social event. When

29:00

you bring your values front of mind, and you say,

29:04

I feel anxious, and

29:06

my value is learning and growth. So

29:10

I'm keeping this value front of

29:12

mind, and I'm going to say yes

29:15

because this is something that's important

29:17

to me. Or in a work situation,

29:20

I want to shut myself down and not

29:22

put my hand up for something, but

29:24

learning and growth are important, so

29:27

I choose to say yes even

29:31

if it feels uncomfortable. And in my

29:33

ted talk I use this phrase, I say,

29:35

discomfort is the price

29:38

of admission to a meaningful

29:40

life. What I mean

29:42

by that is that sometimes

29:45

our emotions and our thoughts and

29:47

our stories are going to say

29:50

no, shut down, turn

29:52

away, close off. And

29:55

yet if we can keep front

29:57

of mind the two or three things that are

30:00

fundamental to who we want

30:02

to be in the world, we can often

30:04

choose to move forward even in the context

30:06

of discomfort. We've

30:56

had a couple of the founders

30:58

of acceptance and commitment there rape on, and that's

31:01

one of the things that shines so through in

31:03

that particular modality is this choosing

31:06

to live by your values even when you're

31:09

uncomfortable. You know that these emotions,

31:11

these emotions don't have to go away

31:14

for us to live by our values. And that's where we

31:16

often get we get caught up. Oh well,

31:18

if I just didn't feel so anxious, I would do it.

31:20

Where it's kind of the reverse. I'm going to do it

31:23

even though I feel anxious, because sometimes

31:25

those thoughts and emotions don't go away,

31:27

and we have we have to act sort

31:29

of almost in spite of them sometimes.

31:31

But you're right that that keeping our

31:33

values is the foremost thing that we look

31:36

at is such a key

31:38

idea. And I love the idea of choice

31:40

points. I think that life is just filled

31:42

with them. That's what life is, is all

31:44

these choice points, and and we don't have to get

31:47

them all right, but if we get enough of them

31:49

right, that leads to a good life. Yeah,

31:52

it's a critical way of being able

31:54

to recognize that. You know, we don't learn

31:56

how to ride a bicycle by

31:59

studying a manual. We learn

32:01

how to ride a bicycle by getting

32:04

on it and moving forward. And

32:06

the same applies to

32:09

all aspects of our lives. When it comes to our

32:11

values. We move in the

32:13

direction of our values. When we move in

32:15

the direction of our values, and

32:18

you know, to what you mentioned earlier, this

32:20

idea that we can do that even

32:23

in spite of difficulty

32:25

emotions and experiences. But that's

32:27

not the same as trying

32:29

to push them aside or pretend that they don't exist.

32:32

It's actually about a capaciousness

32:34

and an openness to them.

32:36

Are breathing into them an acceptance

32:39

that is just so fundamental. And

32:41

also, I think you know, really important part

32:43

of this is recognizing

32:46

that our values are

32:49

often contained in our difficulty

32:51

emotions. What I mean by this is

32:54

that often, you know, when we experience a

32:56

difficulty motion, these

32:58

difficulty emotions don't just

33:01

come out of nowhere. You know, we we tend

33:04

not to get upset

33:06

about something if it doesn't matter to us. We tend

33:08

not to get angry about something if it doesn't matter to us.

33:11

So often beneath our most difficulty emotions

33:13

as signposts to the things that we care

33:15

about. When I'm working

33:17

with people, sometimes you know they might say

33:20

or realize over time that depression

33:23

for them might be a fundamental

33:27

value, which is I

33:29

want to be more

33:32

in the world. I've

33:34

never met someone with social anxiety

33:37

who isn't at some level concerned about how

33:39

do I better connect. I've

33:41

never met someone in the workplace board

33:45

or frustrated with their job who

33:47

isn't at some level concerned about how

33:49

do I better grow and how do I better

33:52

use my talents and skills. I've

33:54

never met you know a guilty parent

33:57

who isn't at some level concerned about

34:00

how do I connect better or

34:03

how do I be more present with my children? So

34:05

often beneath our most difficult emotions

34:08

are actually signpost to our values.

34:11

And when people say, you know, what are my values? How

34:13

do I work this out? Often the

34:15

source is to say,

34:18

what is the emotion telling

34:20

me? What is the function of

34:22

the emotion. In my book, I call this, you know what

34:24

the funk? What is the function

34:27

of the emotion? What is the emotion

34:29

trying to signal to me about

34:31

what's important here? Yeah, indeed,

34:33

that's so powerful. Let's talk

34:35

for a minute about something

34:38

that you write about in the book. And I love

34:40

the idea of this, which is

34:43

that part of our rigidity comes from something

34:45

called premature cognitive commitment.

34:48

Can you explain what that is? Because I

34:50

think that is such a big thing. Yes,

34:53

So this is really the idea that very

34:55

often we decide before

34:59

we've actually slow down and

35:01

thought about. So we

35:03

will often, you know, jump to conclusions

35:07

and these you know, these conclusions

35:10

are conclusions about you

35:12

know, we do it with the news, we do it with politics,

35:15

but we also often jump to conclusions

35:18

about ourselves. And you

35:20

know, some of these conclusions have foundational

35:24

elements in our childhood or in prior

35:27

relationships or experiences.

35:29

But often what we're doing is we are jumping

35:32

to the sense of who

35:34

am I, what am I good at? G I

35:36

don't dance, or I'm not creative,

35:39

or I no longer do X,

35:42

or you know whatever it is. I mean, the list is

35:44

as long as many as

35:47

the diversity of people on the planet.

35:49

And yet there's nothing wrong with

35:51

these There's nothing wrong with these stories.

35:54

Again, I think this is what's really important here.

35:56

Stories help us to make sense

35:59

of our war old. When I'm

36:02

lying in bed one morning and my son

36:04

comes and jumps on the bed, the story

36:07

is, oh, this is where I am, and this

36:09

is my son, and I am in Boston,

36:12

Massachusetts, and I'm no longer in South Africa.

36:14

And we have a narrative that gets

36:16

woven together. And this is really really

36:18

critical to us as human

36:20

beings because the narrative

36:23

helps us to hold

36:25

what is important and to have that front

36:27

and center. This is my son on

36:29

the bed. And it also helps

36:32

us to move

36:34

away from or ignore

36:37

all of the sensory information

36:40

that is unimportant. You know, I can ignore

36:42

the washing machine that might be going on in the background,

36:44

or i can ignore, you

36:48

know, the book that I read

36:51

the night before that might be but unsettling, because I've got

36:53

the story that is really important. And

36:55

so stories, there's

36:58

nothing wrong with a story,

37:00

even if the story is a so called

37:03

negative story, even if it's a so called

37:05

bad story, there's nothing wrong that

37:07

help us to make sense of the world. Where

37:10

the story starts

37:12

to become problematic

37:15

is not about the content of the

37:17

story. Rather, it's about

37:19

whether the story serves

37:21

us or doesn't. Does it take

37:23

us away? Are we believing in

37:26

it and acting in it in a way that takes

37:28

us away from our values or not? That's

37:30

the fundamental litmus. You know. Is

37:32

this story

37:35

something that I'm attaching to so strongly

37:38

and so quickly that it's

37:41

hindering my ability to thrive? Or

37:45

is it a story that I've got that I'm able

37:47

to hold. But I recognize that I'm

37:49

more than my story. And just to give you

37:51

an example of what I mean by this, you know, if

37:53

listeners say, well, I'm a parent.

37:56

Yes, I'm a parent, but I'm also more

37:59

than a parent. You know, I'm I'm a

38:01

worker, or I'm a father, or a

38:03

sister or brother. We all recognize

38:05

that that we we are

38:09

someone who has multiple

38:11

identities, and at

38:14

any one point in time, we might be acting

38:16

out of particular identity. We might be being

38:19

a parrot, but we also recognize

38:21

that we more than that single identity. And

38:23

in the same way, if we take that idea,

38:25

we can apply to our stories. I'm more

38:28

than a single story. Yes,

38:30

i might be the story of someone who's

38:33

not creative or someone

38:35

who's unlovable, but I'm also

38:38

other stories. And so if we

38:40

can start recognizing that

38:42

there are other stories there, or

38:44

that their stories that we can start moving

38:47

into in ways that are again connected

38:49

with our values, or we can start creating

38:51

other narratives, that becomes really powerful.

38:54

So, you know, really importantly, there's nothing

38:56

wrong with any one story. It's

38:59

when the story comes a prison

39:02

and a poor reflection of

39:04

who we want to be in the world, that's

39:07

when our behaviors need to change

39:09

and our attachment to the story needs

39:12

to start being pride us a little bit right,

39:14

and you talk in that context use

39:17

the words habitual inflexible

39:19

response to ideas, And

39:21

I think that's so much of what it is is it's

39:24

recognizing that stories are

39:26

stories, and it's back to that stimulus

39:29

and response. It's about being able to step

39:31

into that space and not

39:34

always react to the exact same way.

39:36

Like you know, the image of being hooked is a

39:38

really good one. Like you know, if you're hooked

39:40

on a line, right, every time that line yanks,

39:42

you get yanked too. And I think that's

39:44

what's so useful in that concept of

39:47

premature cognitive commitment, recognizing

39:49

when we're taking shortcuts, and particularly when these

39:51

shortcuts staying in the way of us being

39:53

the person we want to be. Yeah, and we

39:55

can also we can also to that end, we

39:58

can also help our human

40:00

need for shortcuts to work

40:02

for us. So we can start, for instance,

40:05

to name our story. We can say,

40:07

gee, you know, that's my I'm never

40:09

good enough story, or that's my

40:12

poor me story, or that's my

40:14

I'm just not gonna

40:17

get what I need in this job story.

40:20

And being able to sometimes

40:22

even apply habitual shortcuts

40:25

is important when we're

40:27

doing it intentionally and when it is

40:30

something that is values congruent right

40:32

exactly. Well, we are at the end of our

40:34

time here, but Susan, thank you so much

40:36

for taking the time to come on. I found

40:39

your book really helpful, your ted talk is

40:41

wonderful, and these ideas, I think you've done

40:43

a really great job of synthesizing

40:45

a lot of ideas that I've seen in other places,

40:47

but really into useful form.

40:50

You're you're a great communicator at that. We're

40:53

going to continue the conversation you and I

40:55

by talking about the difference between

40:58

bottling our emotions and brooding,

41:00

the difference between bottlers and brooders,

41:03

and then we're also going to talk about

41:05

how for some of us these

41:08

negative emotions actually are

41:10

helpful. We're going to talk more specifically about

41:12

instances of negative emotions and how they

41:14

might help us think more clearly about the world.

41:17

So that'll be in the post show conversation. Listeners

41:20

you can get access by becoming

41:22

a member going to one you feed dot

41:24

net slash support. So

41:26

thank you so much Susan for coming on.

41:28

Thank you it's been a pleasure. Okay

41:31

bye.

41:48

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