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life that's here? Welcome

1:02

to the one you feed. Throughout

1:04

time, great thinkers have recognized the

1:06

importance of the thoughts we have, quotes

1:08

like garbage in, garbage out,

1:11

or you are what you think ring

1:13

true, and yet for many of

1:15

us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower

1:17

us. We tend toward negativity self

1:20

pity, jealousy, or fear.

1:23

We see what we don't have instead of what we

1:25

do. We think things that hold us

1:27

back and dampen our spirit. But

1:29

it's not just about thinking. Our

1:31

actions matter. It takes conscious,

1:33

consistent, and creative effort to make

1:35

a life worth living. This podcast

1:38

is about how other people keep themselves moving

1:40

in the right direction, how they feed

1:43

their good wolf. Thanks

1:57

for joining us. Our guest on this episode

1:59

is Tara Brock, an American psychologist

2:02

and proponent of Buddhist meditation.

2:04

She is a guiding teacher and founder of the

2:06

Insight Meditation Community of Washington,

2:08

d C. Brock also teaches about

2:11

Buddhist meditation at centers for meditation

2:13

in yoga in the United States and Europe,

2:15

including Spirit Rock Meditation Center

2:17

in Woodacre, California, the Crapolu

2:19

Center, and the Omega Institute for

2:22

Holistic Studies. Brock is an engaged

2:24

Buddhist specializing in the application of Buddhist

2:26

teachings to emotional healing. Her

2:29

two thousand three book Radical Acceptance

2:31

Embracing Your Life with the Heart of a Buddha

2:34

focuses on the use of practices such as

2:36

mindfulness for healing trauma. Her

2:38

two thousand thirteen book True Refuge,

2:41

Finding a Place of Freedom in your own awakened

2:43

Heart, offers practices for tapping

2:46

into inner peace and wisdom in the midst

2:48

of difficulty. So this is a

2:50

rerelease of one of our most popular

2:53

and best episodes that

2:55

now that I look at it is over two years

2:57

old, so it's about time you're

2:59

here it it's with the wonderful

3:01

Tara Brock. And the reason we're doing

3:03

a re release this week is

3:06

because our dear friend

3:08

Christopher, who

3:10

does all the voiceovers and the amazing

3:13

audio production and editing of

3:15

this show, is getting married,

3:18

so we're busy with all the preparation

3:20

for that. So I hope you enjoy this

3:23

interview, and if you want

3:25

to give Chris some wedding wishes, send

3:27

him an email at Forbes dot Chris

3:29

at gmail dot com.

3:32

Hi, Tara, Welcome to the show. It's

3:34

lovely to be with you, Eric. I am

3:36

very excited to have you on. I think I've been

3:38

trying to arrange this for a while. When I started

3:41

the show. You were one of the guests right away that I was

3:43

like, I definitely want to get her on

3:45

the show. You're you're writing and your teachings

3:47

have been a big influence on

3:49

me and on several people that I

3:52

am close with. So I'm really happy to have you.

3:54

Thank you, thank you. So let's start,

3:56

like we always do, with the parable.

3:59

There's a grandfather father who's talking with his grandson.

4:01

He says, in life, there are two wolves

4:03

inside of us that are always at battle. One

4:06

is a good wolf, which represents things

4:08

like kindness and bravery and love, and

4:11

the other's a bad wolf, which represents things

4:13

like greed and hatred and fear. And

4:16

the grandson stops and he thinks about

4:18

it for a second. He looks up at his grandfather and he says,

4:20

well, grandfather, which one wins?

4:23

And the grandfather says, the

4:25

one you feed. So I'd like

4:27

to start off by asking you what that

4:29

parable means to you in your

4:32

life and in the work that you do. And

4:34

I know you know it because it was in one of your books.

4:37

Yeah, it's a familiar one, and I

4:39

remember it was coming out right after,

4:42

uh, you know, the bombing

4:44

of the World Trade Center and so on, and

4:46

that was kind of one of the ones that was circulating.

4:49

And I think what it means is

4:51

that every one of us has the

4:54

conditioning towards greed

4:56

and aversion and aggression.

4:59

You know, we all have that in our nervous system

5:01

are kind of primitive limbit conditioning.

5:04

And we also each one of us has

5:06

this um evolving brain

5:09

and evolving consciousness that's capable

5:11

of um unfathomable

5:14

amounts of loving and of creativity

5:16

and of presence. And so the question

5:19

is, um, do we get hijacked

5:21

and is our life run by

5:23

the fear parts? Are

5:25

do we have more increasing access

5:28

to our our our highest

5:30

potential? And so the parable

5:33

says it's whicheveryone you feed, And

5:35

I would say that's partly accurate.

5:39

And by that I mean it's

5:41

really important to pay attention to

5:43

and nourish our our hearts and

5:46

to um bring to mind

5:48

the goodness and other people and be

5:50

very compassionate towards where they're suffering.

5:53

And when the

5:56

more primitive conditioning arises,

5:58

which it does I think for every one of us every

6:00

day, every single

6:03

day. Yeah, when you have a judgment,

6:05

that's a more primitive part of our conditioning.

6:07

When that arises, it's not about starving

6:10

that wolf. It's more about bringing

6:13

that into our awareness

6:16

with interest and with care. So

6:18

when the fearful wolf appears. Not

6:20

to make it bad, it's it's

6:23

just a frightened part

6:25

of ourselves. But to not be

6:28

not buy into the narrative, not

6:30

buy into the narrative that the only way

6:32

that people will do what I want

6:35

is if I threaten them, are if

6:37

I judge them, or you know, not buy into

6:39

the narrative. Watch that part of ourselves

6:43

with interest and with care, so

6:45

that we're not our identity

6:47

doesn't get captured by it. Yeah,

6:50

exactly. And I'd like to talk

6:52

about clarifying that idea

6:54

just a little bit, because in your work you talk

6:56

a lot about being present with the emotions.

6:59

You know, here is this situation, here is this emotion,

7:01

being present with it and opening to

7:04

it um at the same time. Also

7:06

in in the Buddhist tradition and a lot of your

7:09

work, we talk about the direction that we point

7:11

our mind is going to be more

7:13

of what we get. If we think more about hostility,

7:15

we get more more hostility.

7:18

And I'm always interested in where's

7:20

the balance between those things,

7:22

what's the right way to tell I'm

7:24

genuinely feeling and

7:27

emotion, I'm going through what I what I

7:29

need to go through, versus I'm telling

7:31

myself a story or

7:33

I'm taking a point of view that is painful

7:36

and should be dropped. I think

7:38

the way you asked that question, Eric actually

7:40

points to a response,

7:42

which is that if you're paying

7:45

attention to the storyline

7:48

of you know, the repeating stories of

7:51

um, somebody else is wrong and bad

7:53

or I'm wrong and bad, then

7:55

you're just gonna be perpetuating

7:59

the cycle. The words whatever, where

8:01

thoughts are going through have a certain

8:03

biochemistry, and we get stuck in that

8:05

state. But if instead you

8:08

actually come into the body

8:10

and in a very

8:13

unconditional and kind way open

8:15

to the feelings and the energy and the body, then there's

8:17

actual transformation. Then

8:19

what happens is that there's a shift and awareness

8:22

where you open into a larger

8:24

sense of being and the emotions

8:26

are currents in your ocean, but you're

8:29

not identified with them. So I

8:31

would say whenever there's a strong,

8:34

sticky charged emotion, that's

8:37

the time it's asking for attention.

8:39

And one of a great sage once said

8:42

that if you if there's one question you ask

8:44

yourself, it's what am I unwilling

8:47

to feel? And

8:49

it's the raw, sticky, vulnerable

8:52

stuff we're unwilling to feel, and it's in the moment

8:54

that we become willing that it

8:56

no longer has so much control. It's

8:59

like the some and say that when you begin

9:02

to name a fear and then touch into it,

9:04

it's no longer controlling you. So

9:07

I would say that that's a key

9:10

element in healing and

9:12

spiritual awakening.

9:14

And sometimes it's described as

9:17

you know, in the Ti bed and art,

9:19

you see these animal headed goddesses

9:22

that represent delusion and

9:24

fear and hatred and so on,

9:26

and you see them really at

9:29

the gateway to the temple that you have

9:31

to go through them to enter sacred

9:33

space, and you see them around

9:35

the circle of the mandala that you have to go through

9:38

them to get really to the

9:40

place of stillness and peace. So

9:42

that's one key domain

9:45

in spiritual life. But then there's another

9:47

one, which is to be able

9:50

to remember and visualize

9:53

and pray for and turn

9:55

towards the light. In

9:57

other words, it's already there in us. This

10:00

are awakened potential is already there. But

10:02

there's a real value to remembering the goodness

10:05

too on purpose, remembering

10:08

what we love, remembering what we're grateful

10:10

for, because we can get a habit we

10:12

can get in this habit of being addicted to the

10:14

suffering. So I think that's kind of what

10:16

you're pointing to, and that balancing of

10:19

yes, b with the difficult emotions, feel,

10:21

feel them in your body, and take

10:24

time each day to remember

10:26

what you're grateful for, or when

10:28

you see something beautiful, pause

10:31

and savor it, because we don't take

10:34

in really sometimes the goodness

10:36

and the beauty. We tend to kind of skim

10:38

over it. We're so busily on our way somewhere

10:41

else. Yeah. I love

10:43

that whole whole description of it's

10:45

kind of not one or the other, it's it's

10:47

it's both right exactly. And

10:50

we had Rick Hanson on who

10:52

I Know that you also know,

10:54

and he you know, he talked a lot about that idea

10:56

of taking in the good. Positive thinking.

10:59

Sometimes is is presented as a panacea

11:01

for a lot of things, and that's not what this is. This

11:04

is just choosing there is good

11:06

there at any time. You don't have to make it

11:08

up. It's that which gets

11:10

the most of our attention if we can to place

11:12

it there. And so I love what you're saying

11:14

because and Rick talks about this a lot

11:17

too. We do have our

11:19

survival conditioning that negativity

11:21

bias that gives us the habit

11:24

of looking for what's wrong. And

11:27

one of the things I've become aware of in the last

11:29

decade or so is how often we're

11:32

in a mindset where we think we have a

11:34

problem, that there there's something

11:36

we need to solve or figure out, or

11:39

there's something that's wrong about what's

11:41

happening right now and we need to change

11:43

it. And I have become

11:46

very aware that in

11:48

the moments that we stopped thinking of it

11:50

as a problem and just say, oh,

11:52

so this is what's happening. It's asking for

11:54

my attention. We actually

11:56

have a lot more access to creativity,

12:00

to empathy, to a

12:02

real vitality. So it's

12:05

an interesting inquiry and I invite

12:08

your listeners to consider this of

12:11

you know, if right now there's

12:13

not a problem, really

12:15

watch the moment, like I

12:18

mean, if there's really no problem, if there's nothing

12:20

wrong, and we can

12:22

get without a taste of freedom

12:27

to not add the negativity bias

12:29

in Yeah, that's such a powerful

12:31

idea. I was asked that question once

12:33

by a by a meditation teacher, like what

12:35

is here? You know, just pretend for a minute that

12:38

nothing is wrong, and you may you may not believe

12:40

it, but just pretend that everything

12:42

is perfect right in this moment, you know, there's nothing

12:44

you have to do or solve. What is it like? And

12:47

there is a you know, I had a pretty profound

12:49

experience in that moment when I kind of went whoa

12:52

um, and I think that second thing is A

12:54

guest recently referred to our brains as a problem

12:57

factory, like if you know, once one is gone,

12:59

it just create it's another. And I've noticed

13:01

that for myself. If I'm not if I'm not consciously

13:05

working on being more present and more aware,

13:07

it's just I just go from one to the next and

13:10

I'll probably find one because that's

13:12

what my brain is used to doing, is

13:14

working on problems. Yeah, It's

13:16

almost like if we're not being vigilant

13:19

and you know, tossing around

13:21

a problem, we feel like there's something

13:23

that's going to blindside us. So we're

13:25

always you know, in that kind of defensive

13:28

mode, that sense

13:30

it around the corner, something is going to be

13:32

too much to handle. So

13:34

it becomes very powerful when we challenge

13:37

that because in a way, if

13:39

we're living all the time like around the corner,

13:41

something's too much. We're not really

13:43

bringing our wholeheartedness

13:45

and our tenderness and our clarity

13:47

to what's right here. And so this

13:50

idea of coming back to the present

13:52

moment, you know that that being the

13:55

one of the solutions to to a lot

13:57

of what troubles us is

13:59

one of those things that is easy to

14:01

say, um, but it's hard

14:03

to do at least I found

14:06

certainly earlier and still sometimes

14:08

like I would come back to the present moment, but

14:11

there wouldn't I wouldn't know what was here, And then my brain

14:13

would be back in two seconds, and there I would be

14:15

again, and I would come back to the present moment and

14:18

again same thing. It's like, I'm here, but wait,

14:20

there's nothing compelling enough in this moment. Is

14:23

your perspective that that's really just a thing

14:25

of training, that the formal meditation

14:27

process and the formal process of awareness

14:30

allows us to come back to see

14:32

the deeper nuances in the present

14:34

moment so that we're able to stay there longer. Yeah,

14:37

I think you're saying in a really

14:40

um powerful way. I'm one.

14:42

One teacher said, you know too. When asked

14:44

to describe the world. His response

14:46

was lost in thought and

14:50

we spent so many moments in

14:52

a virtual reality where

14:54

we're in some trance of thinking, we

14:56

don't actually have that much experience

14:59

staying in our sense is and

15:01

if if you ask, if you ask

15:03

yourself, right this moment, how a where am I

15:06

right this moment? Of the energy inside

15:08

my hands, are my feet?

15:11

Are the feeling in my heart? It's like

15:13

for most of us were mostly in the

15:15

head and in our ideas of

15:18

the world. So the training really

15:20

of coming into the moment is coming

15:23

into our senses. So

15:25

if we can pause and start practicing

15:27

bringing the attention down into

15:29

the body and feel the throat and

15:32

the chests and the belly, and get the

15:34

knack of staying a bit more than

15:36

all the nuances of what we call presents

15:39

start coming alive because in the

15:41

space where we're not lost in thought,

15:44

really the light of awareness begins to shine

15:46

through. This

16:17

is easier said than done. I think

16:19

that's one of the things that can be discouraging for

16:21

people is you can do it and then it's kind

16:23

of done, and then you feel like you have to keep doing it.

16:25

And you have a line that I love in

16:27

which you say that um meditation

16:30

is a setup for feeling deficient unless

16:33

we respectfully acknowledge the strength

16:35

of our conditioning to race away

16:37

from presents. It's the truth. And

16:40

one thing I've noticed is that the more we

16:42

have either trauma or major

16:45

wounding early on, the

16:47

more the strategy of dissociating

16:50

and leaving our body is pronounced.

16:53

So for those that have had that kind of really

16:55

difficult early childhood or whatever, it's

16:58

even harder. It's even harder

17:01

because the rawness feels

17:03

in the body, feels intolerable. So

17:06

it takes a tremendous

17:08

self compassion. I

17:11

probably rate self

17:13

compassion as the single

17:15

quality that most

17:17

can serve us, uh in

17:20

meditating and in getting

17:22

more intimate with each other and whatever

17:25

matters to us in our lives. Yeah,

17:27

that is such an important piece. And I think

17:29

that recognition that this is

17:31

a really challenging endeavor and it

17:33

doesn't happen quickly and unfortunately,

17:36

right I think we all wish we had some silver bullet

17:38

to give that would be like, Okay, now everything is

17:40

better. But this constant coming back

17:42

to awareness into the moment into our body

17:45

can can take you know, a

17:47

great deal of time to to get better

17:49

at and I think it's so important because

17:51

I hear people say all the time, well, I can't meditate,

17:54

I'm not any good at meditating it, And I'm

17:56

sure you hear that that also, it's

17:59

that recognized in that like, ay,

18:01

there isn't any goal and be that's

18:03

the human condition and it's okay, exactly

18:06

right. It really helps to

18:08

know that we're not alone in it, that coming

18:10

into the present moment is hard

18:13

for everyone, but it's also important

18:15

to know that it's really possible. One

18:17

of the challenges is if we've just been introduced

18:19

to one kind of meditation or another

18:22

that isn't a match for what

18:24

really is a good gateway for us,

18:27

then we can get discouraged. So when

18:29

I teach, I and I offer, you

18:31

know, I like hundreds and hundreds of

18:33

guided meditations, I offer a

18:35

lot of different gateways in because

18:37

for some people it's going to be through

18:40

a very gentle, repeated scanning

18:42

of the body, and for another person it

18:44

might be through a heart meditation

18:46

that helps us remember and trust

18:49

our own goodness. And yet for another person,

18:51

listening to sounds, just

18:54

just listening to sounds helps to quiet

18:56

the mind. And then for another person there's

18:59

a certain kind of breathing that actually

19:01

calms the nervous system and makes it easier

19:03

to quiet and collect and arrive.

19:06

So part of what I really

19:08

invite is experiment, experiment,

19:11

and trust that there's something in us that

19:13

wants to settle, and we will

19:15

if we find kind of the pathway

19:17

that's most of a match for us.

19:20

Well, you lead me perfectly into the next

19:22

question, um, because I'm

19:24

one of those people that the breath doesn't

19:26

work, and that's what I tried year

19:29

after year after year, and you

19:31

know, never really

19:33

became a consistent meditator. And then when

19:35

I heard about sound and the body, all of a

19:37

sudden kind of everything changed. But

19:39

my questions, I agree. I think experimentation

19:42

is great. But what I don't have a good

19:44

handle on, and that I find myself wrestling

19:47

with, is Okay, I'm going to meditate today,

19:49

what am I gonna do? You know? Should

19:51

we pick the one that that we like

19:53

and just sort of stay on that path?

19:56

There is there some degree of trying

19:58

different ones. That's what I'm

20:01

you know, kind of kind of going through

20:03

now, is should I just keep doing the

20:05

same thing or there's several different approaches that I seem

20:07

to get results. With UM, and

20:09

it ends up being you know, I try and make that

20:11

decision before I go into meditation, obviously,

20:14

but sometimes I'm in the middle of meditation,

20:17

this isn't as good. Maybe I should be trying that kind or

20:19

that kind which is obviously profoundly

20:21

against the point. UM. Yeah,

20:23

So what are your thoughts on that. That's a that's

20:25

a great question. So to two levels

20:28

of response, And one is I've

20:30

now watched people over probably

20:32

four decades, um people

20:35

all different kinds of spiritual traditions

20:38

and meditations and so on. And

20:40

one thing I've noticed the difference between

20:42

people that really keep

20:45

on evolving and unfolding in a creative

20:47

way and those that either plateau out

20:50

or quit. It's not

20:52

it doesn't have anything to do with what particular

20:55

meditation or practice they're doing, whether

20:57

it's tai chi chi, gung zog

21:00

chans and whatever. It

21:02

has to do with UM staying

21:04

connected with a very sincere quality

21:07

of aspiration, really

21:10

sincere about waking up and

21:13

when somebody that's the longing.

21:15

There's a passion about truth, really

21:17

what's the nature of reality?

21:19

And there's a passion about loving

21:22

without holding back, like I just really

21:24

want this heart to be free that

21:27

and and there's a coming back again and

21:29

again to that aspiration. There's

21:31

a certain intuition then about

21:34

finding our ways to the practices

21:36

that serve. There's less

21:38

inclination to pull away from our practice

21:40

just because it's challenging. There's

21:43

less inclination to hop around

21:45

because we're restless, but there's less

21:47

inclination to stick with something out of duty

21:50

when we might be experimenting. So

21:52

it's really very individual. I

21:54

mean, if you're the kind of person that

21:57

is restless and it's going to it's kind of always needs

21:59

to sample something else on the menu,

22:01

then I'd encourage you to let some roots go

22:04

down and just gain some

22:07

real familiarity with some

22:10

meditation practice that you know

22:13

in some ways helping you become more present.

22:16

If, on the other hand, you're a person that that

22:18

doggedly just always stays with

22:21

one thing, or doesn't you know, just somebody

22:23

tells you something, you just keep doing it, take

22:26

up a chance and an experiment

22:29

um for you, it sounds like you know

22:31

you you might want to have a weave

22:33

that you do that includes

22:36

something that's you know is going

22:38

to keep on um. Letting

22:40

go of armoring around the heart, but also

22:42

bringing clarity and then keep

22:45

going deeper and deeper with that. Um

22:48

So it's it's it's always going to

22:50

be case by case, but there are some guidelines

22:53

that we can kind of stay alert to. The deepest

22:55

thing, though, is your intention. And

22:57

I really encourage us all to at

22:59

the beginning of every whether

23:01

it's an interview like this, are meditation,

23:04

sitting, or being with somebody, to

23:06

just remember what about

23:09

this really matters to me? Has

23:11

our heart is a compass, it will show us

23:13

where to go. Yeah, that's great

23:15

advice, and it's something I took from reading

23:18

your book again in preparation for this interview

23:20

that I don't think I had landed

23:22

on before, which is to set an intention

23:25

why am I? I find that helpful in keeping

23:27

a steady meditation practice for sure, is remembering

23:29

why am I doing this? You know, it's not

23:31

another chore on the list, It's there's a

23:33

reason that I'm I'm doing this. We will

23:36

not stay with meditation unless there's

23:38

a certain degree of fun and pleasure in it. For

23:40

us, it just won't work. If

23:42

you're grim, it just won't work. So I

23:45

know for myself, part of what's

23:47

going on is I really want to follow my

23:49

interests and an interest

23:52

not like conceptual, but I want

23:54

to stay where it feels alive. And

23:56

I also there has to be a certain amount of

23:58

pleasure in it, So weaving

24:00

in the heart practices UM really

24:02

bringing a live sensation and whatever

24:05

helps to feel us most vibrant in

24:07

it. UM play around because

24:10

humans don't keep doing things unless

24:12

they feel gratified. That's right. It's

24:14

that elephant and the writer analogy.

24:17

The writer is your conscious brain and it's

24:19

trying to direct things, and the elephant is your emotional

24:21

side. And you know, the elephant is only

24:23

going to go where the writer wants it to go, so long

24:25

if it doesn't want to go right, you get

24:28

you got to get the elephant engaged in the game.

24:30

And that's the emotional piece of it, the reward

24:32

and the enjoyment and the feeling

24:35

of satisfaction exactly. So

24:37

one of the things that I wanted to explore a little

24:39

bit more is there's this idea

24:42

we talked about it right out of the gate, about dropping

24:44

into the body, about feeling our emotions,

24:47

UM, dealing with difficult emotions.

24:49

But a lot of people that I know and

24:52

myself firmly included

24:54

in this camp. Depression is

24:56

one of the things that we that I

24:58

tend to wrestle with more. And I get this question

25:01

from listeners of a fair amount, which is,

25:03

I don't feel much of anything, So what am I dropping

25:06

into? I don't have a strong emotion.

25:08

I'm working with. What I've basically got is

25:11

numbness. And I drop into my body and I

25:13

pay attention to my hand and honestly doesn't feel like

25:15

there's much going on there. What's the way that

25:17

we work with with that in

25:20

order to deal with that condition

25:22

or that situation. I'm really glad you brought

25:24

up depression because I've had many

25:26

people say, you know, I'm either that

25:28

I try to get in touch with it and it's a numb

25:31

are. When I can get in touch with it, I

25:33

sink and it's like it's just like an endless,

25:36

endless sinking downward. It's like it

25:38

doesn't if there's no real insight

25:40

or anything refreshing that comes out of it, I just

25:42

feel more depressed. So there's

25:45

a few things, you know, and for

25:47

all of us, the

25:50

deepest place of transformation

25:52

is when there's just pure awareness.

25:55

Awareness is what wakes us up,

25:57

and there are all these different

26:00

skillful means that help

26:02

us to be um positioned

26:05

in a way that we can be more aware

26:08

and for depression, the skillful

26:10

means really often have to do

26:12

with exercising and engaging

26:15

our body and mind with uh

26:17

nature, with the elements

26:19

and with other people. Getting enough sleep

26:21

and then being physically and

26:24

emotionally engage is a skillful

26:26

means if there's depression,

26:28

to activate enough so then as

26:31

you bring the attention inward,

26:34

you actually can connect with the aliveness.

26:36

Yep. I think that's such good advice. And

26:39

I think for me it's that

26:41

active movement and nature that are the

26:43

two best antidepressants I know

26:46

me to to anti anxiety too.

26:48

Yeah, And of course the challenge that

26:51

can make depressions at your monster is that

26:53

it's that the energy to do anything is so

26:55

lacking. It's like this sort of catch twenty two,

26:57

like if I, if you do something, you'll feel better,

26:59

but I can't. You know, I don't have the energy.

27:02

And so for me, I think over the years it's

27:04

become a I've made it into

27:06

just sort of a habit that like

27:09

when I start to feel that way, like I just I

27:11

have learned to propel myself

27:14

into motion. Um, depression

27:16

hates a moving target. Is the is the saying

27:18

I love. It's a very good saying, and

27:21

it helps to have other people, um,

27:23

you know, on the team with you. In other

27:25

words, sometimes whether it's having a running

27:27

partner or walking partner or whatever, UM

27:30

engagement. Depression needs

27:32

engagement, and it needs one other thing,

27:34

which is it needs uh to

27:37

be forgiven, because

27:39

we whether it's depression or shame or

27:41

whatever, we take it personally like

27:44

it's my depression or my fear.

27:46

And then that brings more of a sense of something's

27:49

wrong with me, which actually deepens the cycle.

27:52

So to add to engagement, commit

27:56

and this I'm speaking to all of us, commit

27:58

to truly forgiving

28:00

the presence of the

28:03

difficult emotion. It's

28:05

not our fault. It's like depression

28:07

is not our fault. It whether

28:10

it's genetic or epigenetic having

28:12

to do with early childhood stuff

28:14

or the culture, it's

28:16

just not like we you know, got born

28:18

and pressed the button saying this is the motion I wanted

28:21

to be living with. You know, we didn't

28:23

choose it. And so there's

28:25

something about forgiveness. It actually creates

28:27

space. Like I'll often I

28:30

do it with anger. You know, I have anger

28:32

will come up and I'll have this idea of, oh, I

28:34

shouldn't be angry. I mean, it's not a spiritual,

28:37

you know, feeling. And one of the first things

28:39

I'll do is go, okay, forgiven,

28:41

forgiven. I send that message

28:44

into the anger like it's it's just

28:46

another weather system. It's

28:48

coming, just like the outer weather. And

28:50

when I forgive the anger, I'm

28:53

not so identified with it, and I can then

28:55

just feel it as sensations and not believe

28:57

the dialogue that goes with it,

28:59

and it comes and it goes in a much

29:01

more wholesome way. So forgive

29:04

the depression. Yeah, I think that's

29:06

such a big one and such an important one, and the

29:08

parable of the I don't know if it's a parable, but the Buddhist

29:11

teaching of the second Arrow is um

29:13

one that I talked about on the show all the time, because

29:15

it's that I'm feeling bad about feeling bad

29:18

that we can actually work with, right, Like, it's

29:20

very hard to not feel depressed, right, there's

29:22

things we can do, but I do feel like we

29:24

have more control over what we layer

29:27

on top of that, you know, the and

29:29

you talk about this in your book, and it kind of leads

29:31

into that next question, which is your first

29:33

book was really about um accepting

29:36

ourselves the way we are and the suffering that

29:38

that that happens to ourselves, and your second book

29:40

is more a little bit about, Hey, there's going

29:42

to be suffering out in the world, that's

29:44

an inevitable fact, you know, or or

29:46

pain that comes in from the outside world.

29:49

But how do we deal

29:51

with that in the most skillful way? And

29:54

that's one of the things I love about the

29:56

Buddhist teachings is it really normalizes

29:59

for me things are not going to

30:01

be going well in life, like difficult

30:03

things happen. That's part of being human.

30:05

And to your point, it's not our fault and it's not our

30:07

you know, it's not a failure. But what are some of the

30:09

more skillful means we can use in

30:12

you know, when when life presents this with things

30:14

that we really wish it wouldn't. Yeah,

30:17

No, it's a it's a powerful question. And that

30:19

is why I wrote True Refuge. I

30:21

had in my own life, Um, I

30:23

got really sick and the spiral

30:26

of sickness went on and on, so I was going

30:28

pretty downhill, and that's an example

30:31

of okay, stuff happens,

30:33

and um, you know, I went from being very very

30:35

athletic to not being able to even

30:37

walk up a slight incline. I

30:39

am now much much better than I was,

30:41

but for about eight years I didn't know what

30:44

was going to happen. And what that

30:46

did was it forced me to find a way to

30:48

get my arms around sickness,

30:51

death, dying. At the same time

30:53

I lost both parents and you know, so all

30:55

the encounters and

30:58

the teachings both in Buddhism, and I

31:00

think it's really all the perennial teachings

31:03

UM basically point us

31:05

towards finding the

31:07

awareness and heart that's really

31:09

timeless. It's it's it's

31:11

accessible to each of us that

31:14

helps us to rest in something large enough

31:16

so we have room for the waves. And

31:19

that can sound abstract, and yet

31:21

if you've been with somebody that's dying

31:25

and you've sensed how the

31:27

only thing that's big enough for that dying

31:30

is the loving that's there. That's

31:32

the only thing that allows It still hurts,

31:35

but there's space for it. And

31:37

that's the way it is with everything, that

31:39

there are things that are still going to hurt us

31:41

tremendously But if we find

31:44

access to that what I sometimes

31:46

think of as the fearless heart, the heart

31:48

that is big enough for fear, the

31:51

big enough for the losses and the grief, then

31:53

we have a way to take refuge away,

31:55

to come home to beingness

31:58

that can move through things with a

32:00

sense of tenderness and open heartedness

32:03

and grace even when it's really

32:05

really difficult. That's the essential

32:08

message and true refuge my second

32:10

book, And really how to then find

32:12

our way to that timeless heart? How

32:14

do we become president

32:17

enough and open enough and courageous

32:19

enough to really be with the life. That's year.

32:51

I'm going to ask a question that I don't think

32:54

there's really an answer for, but I'm always I'm

32:56

fascinated by it, and I find more and more people

32:59

asking me this question. Um,

33:01

so, which is what

33:04

is the meaning of life?

33:08

Or why are we here? Or

33:10

and and I'm just curious to get your your

33:13

take on that. I don't actually believe you have

33:15

the answer. Um. If you do, though, I'm very

33:17

excited to hear it. Um.

33:21

You know, that's not the kind of question I

33:23

pose in my own inquir'es.

33:26

I don't pose the why questions

33:30

so much. You know why are we here or

33:32

whatever? But a similar

33:35

question is what matters the

33:37

most to me? Are

33:39

to ask and

33:41

and that that has a similar feeling

33:43

tone to it, And I could say, I

33:45

could say, you know for myself

33:47

what matters and sometimes

33:50

debscribed as the two wings of awareness

33:53

that we really need both to be free. What

33:55

matters is deeply understanding

33:58

truth or understand reality, not

34:01

not like in a mental way,

34:03

but a lived way. And and

34:05

the other side of that is loving

34:08

fully. And so if

34:10

I had to say, what's our purpose or anything,

34:12

it's to love fully, to totally

34:14

inhabit are

34:17

being in a way that we um

34:19

feel are belonging to all other beings

34:22

and can express that, really

34:24

express that authentically in

34:26

the way we live our lives. And do you

34:28

think that you don't think about

34:30

and ask those questions because you have an

34:33

experience of being alive that

34:35

feels meaningful. The word meaning

34:38

sometimes trips me and others

34:40

up because it has it's a cognitive word.

34:42

So for me, Matt, what matters

34:45

is more uh mattering,

34:48

what I long for, what what my

34:50

heart cares about, has

34:52

a more visceral experience

34:55

than meaning, which is a little more mental.

34:57

So maybe just that I'm going at it with a

34:59

more eminent quality of inquiry.

35:02

I'm not sure. Yeah, I

35:04

like that word matter, because the the analogy

35:07

I've been thinking about lately is, you

35:10

know, intellectually, I'll never have any idea

35:12

why this is and what's happening, and

35:14

and I could never intellectually convince you

35:16

of, you know, why something was important.

35:18

But if I walked out my door right now and I saw

35:20

a dog laying in front of me suffering, I

35:23

would know your word that it mattered

35:26

that dog not suffer. I could never

35:28

explain it intellectually. There would be no way

35:31

I could be like, well, you could be like, well, there's billions

35:33

of dogs. I mean, we could go through the whole, you know, but

35:35

you could never talk me out of in that moment

35:39

that that dog suffering mattered. And

35:41

for me, that was a big turning point when

35:43

I went, oh, I'm never going to answer

35:45

this question intellectually, I'm

35:47

never going to get there. But I can

35:49

feel kind of and I think it's exactly what you

35:52

just said in a more eloquent way than I had been

35:54

saying. It is that what matters is

35:56

what connects us to those bigger things, and it's

35:58

a felt sense, not in

36:01

intellectual sets. And the reason I asked you if

36:03

you thought you didn't ask those questions

36:06

is that the more I have moved

36:08

into that part of my life and in that

36:10

way, the less I've had those questions

36:12

also. And I'm just kind of curious because I

36:14

do get them, you know, from people. I'm sure you do

36:16

too, and it's it's a genuine

36:19

yearning, but it seems to come up less

36:21

in people who are truly engaged

36:23

in life in a deeper way. Well,

36:26

that's why when I get a conceptual

36:28

question, I reframe it in

36:31

a way that allows a person to discover

36:33

what is true for them in a more

36:36

visceral way. And that's why I shift

36:38

the word meaning to matters. Yeah, that makes

36:40

a lot of sense. You use the word

36:43

trance a lot. You talked about different

36:45

types of trances, but let's talk about what

36:47

what you mean in the use of that word in general.

36:50

When I talk about trance, I'm talking

36:52

about a kind of narrow, distorted,

36:54

contorted uh experience

36:57

of reality and it and it

36:59

narrows because we're there's

37:01

an overlay of mental

37:04

conceptual you know, words,

37:06

ideas, interpretations, and

37:09

um so to step

37:11

out of a trance means to step out of our

37:14

mental interpretations and into reality,

37:16

back into our bodies and our hearts and what we're

37:18

directly experiencing. And the biggest

37:20

way we have a trance in our lives, the

37:23

most immediate, is that we move

37:25

around with an ongoing storyline about

37:28

moa, about who I am, what I need

37:30

to do, what's wrong with me? What what's

37:32

going to make a difference, and so on. We it's

37:35

like our world is very narrowed

37:37

into this self conscious, self

37:40

centered narrative, and

37:42

it's not that we're bad for it.

37:44

It's more that it's just keeping us from

37:46

a much more mysterious and vibrant

37:49

experience of being this so

37:52

the way out of trance is just to recognize,

37:54

oh, okay, I'm living right

37:56

now in a thought realm,

37:59

you know, and thoughts are like a map. We

38:01

need them. In other words, it's it's what

38:03

allows humans to be the most dominant species

38:05

on planet Earth. It's you know, surviving

38:08

and thriving and so on. We

38:10

need them. But if that's

38:12

the end of development, then we're stuck in a

38:14

conceptual world. There's a further evolution

38:17

beyond a self living inside

38:19

thoughts and that's a self that's actually

38:22

awake and awareness. Yeah. I like the

38:24

way that you have addressed it before, because

38:26

I hear a lot of Buddhist teaching saying that the sense

38:28

of a separate self is an illusion,

38:31

and I like the way that you sort of describe

38:33

it as well, it's not exactly an

38:35

illusion, but it's only it's a very

38:37

small part of the picture. It's a very limited

38:40

way of viewing it, because I think when

38:42

people hear it's an illusion, they go, well, it

38:44

feels so real. And I like that

38:46

instead of saying what it is,

38:49

giving a context of it is as it's

38:51

not the only way to view reality. One

38:53

of the phrases that I find

38:55

most valuable when you think of um,

38:58

let's say I have a story about my elf

39:00

and then I'm falling short and I say

39:02

to somebody, well, if you're believing that is

39:04

really is that belief really true?

39:06

And they say, well, it feels really true. It feels like I'm

39:09

deficient, I'm defective failure. So

39:11

the phrase I like is real but

39:13

not true. And the

39:15

reason I like that phrase is that the

39:17

belief I'm deficient, I'm defective,

39:21

it's a real story in our minds, and

39:23

it feels real in our body, So it's real

39:25

in that way. It's it's happening, the

39:27

thoughts happening, the feelings are happening. It's

39:30

real, but it's not the truth of

39:32

existence. In other words, it's not

39:35

that that's what's actually the

39:37

living reality. In other

39:39

words, it's just an idea in our mind and a feeling

39:41

in our body. And to begin to

39:44

get that opens up a little

39:46

space so we can sense there's something bigger

39:50

and maybe more living

39:52

reality than our belief about ourselves.

39:55

It helps us to shake some of the most limiting

39:58

experiences that really they

40:00

bring suffering in our lives. That's really

40:02

powerful. I love that one. I had

40:04

not heard that before, and I think that is a very

40:07

useful tool. We're nearing the

40:09

end of our time here. But I want to

40:11

ask you. You say that we all have

40:13

our own ways of distancing

40:16

ourselves from reality or going into

40:19

trance or you know, call it, whichever of these

40:21

things are. We all have our own ways for

40:23

doing that that are that are kind of individual, but

40:25

that the process of waking up is

40:27

universal. Can you tell me a little bit more

40:30

about that? And then I'd like to maybe circle

40:32

it back to some of our earlier conversation around

40:34

how for each of us, some of the things on

40:36

the path, they're going to be different, you know, some of

40:38

its individualized. So what's universal and what

40:40

parts are kind of ours to tailor

40:43

to what we need. We all have strategies

40:46

of trying to control things. You

40:48

know, every one of us comes. I sometimes think of

40:50

it like, um, we come into this

40:53

world and conditions are

40:55

not always cooperative. So we have you know, parents

40:57

that might not see us for who we are, might not give

41:00

us unconditional love. We have a culture

41:02

that's addictive and violence, so we all put

41:04

on a space suit. We all are

41:06

trying to navigate best as we can, and

41:08

the space suit is our ego control

41:11

systems to defend ourselves, to appear

41:13

good, to try to produce

41:15

sometimes to pretend something so others

41:18

don't attack us too. We

41:20

have addictive qualities to numb

41:22

and tooth, So we all have our strategies

41:24

and they're all ways of trying to control

41:27

things so we don't have to feel bad, so we

41:29

can feel more comfortable. So

41:31

it's universal that we have ways

41:34

of leaving the present moment,

41:37

and there's all sorts of particulars on

41:39

your strategies versus mind. Some people

41:42

are more have withdrawing strategies and others

41:44

are more aggressive. They're all space

41:46

suits strategies. But the universal

41:49

is that when we have those

41:51

strategies, we get identified with

41:53

the strategies, with our ego

41:55

control system, and we forget

41:58

who's looking through the mask. We

42:01

forget the consciousness right

42:03

now that's listening to these words, and

42:05

we forget the tenderness

42:07

and the heart that's really that really

42:09

cares about living and loving. So

42:12

there's a forgetting, and that's universal.

42:16

If they're suffering, it's because you've

42:18

forgotten really who you are. You're

42:21

identified with a more limited

42:24

version of being with the space suit

42:26

cell. And so the way

42:28

back first is just to

42:30

begin to notice how that's happening. Okay,

42:33

so what happens when I feel threatened? Just

42:35

to begin to notice our strategies

42:38

without judging them, just to notice.

42:41

And and the very

42:43

simple, you know, strategy

42:46

for coming back is just to name what we

42:48

notice, okay, defending afraid,

42:52

you know, often obsessions, Just

42:54

to name it and then just very

42:56

gently kind of invite ourselves back

42:58

into the moment, into the body, into

43:00

the heart. That's kind of a universal

43:03

of noticing the way we strategically

43:06

dissociated and gently bringing

43:09

ourselves back. Another

43:11

universal is that this is

43:13

from the Bodhist for path, you know, the

43:15

path of the awakening being is

43:18

it has to be with compassion. So

43:20

one of the things I teach most regularly

43:24

is when you're suffering, just to put your hand

43:26

on your heart and offers

43:28

some message of kindness inwardly,

43:31

because in the moment that there's a gesture

43:34

of kindness, even if it's just the intention

43:36

to be kind something, and the

43:39

armoring of the separate self begins to

43:41

soften, and we begin to get a little

43:43

more of a taste of who we are beyond

43:45

that that space itself.

43:47

We begin to sense the purity

43:50

of our hearts and trust that a little more.

43:52

So. Those are two examples of

43:55

the ways of coming back that our universal

43:57

to notice the strategy, come back

43:59

into the bouddy and feel what's right here,

44:01

and to bring a gesture of kindness to that

44:04

moment. I think that's a beautiful

44:06

place for us to wrap up

44:08

the interview. Tara, thank you so

44:10

much again. I encourage everybody to

44:12

check out your talks and your books and everything

44:15

You've been a genuine inspiration to

44:17

me and I've I've really gotten a lot out of this conversation,

44:20

and so have I. Eric. You're wonderful to

44:22

talk to. I love your inquiry and thank you

44:24

for what you're offering. I feel like you're offering

44:26

something that really invites others into this

44:28

whole stream of waking up. So

44:31

many blessings. Also,

44:34

Okay, take care of all right you do?

44:36

Bye bye.

44:53

You can learn more about Tara Brock and this

44:55

podcast at one you feed dot net.

44:58

Slash Rock