0:08

I

0:08

have had so many experiences

0:11

where it is clear, clear as

0:11

anything, that we are going

0:19

somewhere. It's not over.

0:25

Welcome to the open

0:25

exploration Podcast. I'm on a

0:28

mission to connect with

0:28

Rule-Breakers, Dream-Makers, and

0:32

all around inspiring people to

0:32

explore the possibilities for

0:35

living a vibrant and honest life

0:35

on my own terms.

0:50

Hello, wonderful

0:50

people. Today I bring you the

0:53

sunshine that is Mary Greenwood.

0:53

I've known Mary for many years

0:57

because I got to go to school

0:57

with her amazing daughters

0:59

Hannah and Kiah. Aside from

0:59

raising her daughters to be the

1:03

remarkable and accomplished

1:03

people that they are, Mary spent

1:06

much of her career focused on

1:06

physical wellness as an exercise

1:09

physiologist. However, about a

1:09

decade ago, she shifted to focus

1:14

her life and her career on

1:14

spiritual wellness. She is now a

1:18

chaplain in Summit County,

1:18

Colorado and also offers one on

1:22

one guidance to spiritual

1:22

seekers as a certified spiritual

1:25

director. In our conversation,

1:25

Mary shares about how she

1:28

discovered, and first resisted,

1:28

the call to support individuals

1:32

and families through death and

1:32

grief and to mold her whole life

1:36

and career around spirituality.

1:36

I find Mary's approach to the

1:40

biggest questions in life to be

1:40

so refreshing and thought

1:43

provoking. Her views are

1:43

expansive and open rather than

1:47

narrow or prescriptive, and she

1:47

seems to really delight in

1:50

finding wisdom from many

1:50

traditions and practices. I'm so

1:54

grateful to Mary for her insight

1:54

and warmth, and I hope you enjoy

1:57

our conversation.

2:16

Mary, thank you so

2:16

much for sitting down to talk to

2:18

me today.

2:20

It's my pleasure.

2:21

It's great to be

2:21

here in your beautiful mountain

2:23

home. I was looking at your

2:23

website and I read something

2:26

"joy

2:26

and pain, darkness and light,

2:29

inhaling and exhaling coexist.

2:29

One cannot be untangled from the

2:34

other. But peace is always

2:34

possible." And I thought, I have

2:40

to sit down and talk to Mary

2:40

because it's been too long.

2:45

Yeah, that's

2:45

kind of a big concept for people

2:49

to accept, because it feels once

2:49

we come into this life,

2:55

particularly as privileged

2:55

people, we have an assumption

2:59

and expectation that everything

2:59

is going to be good, and

3:04

everything is going to be light.

3:04

And then we suddenly act

3:07

surprised when darkness appears.

3:07

But it's entirely the message

3:15

throughout the universe that

3:15

there's always both and, and I

3:22

think that's actually one of the

3:22

biggest abstractions and

3:28

concepts around God. We don't

3:28

know who God is, we don't

3:34

understand God. Maybe God is

3:34

just an energy source of a

3:40

positive and a negative. And

3:40

everything springs forth from

3:45

that in that way. Because truly,

3:45

if you take it into a kind of a

3:50

quantum physics direction, if

3:50

everything was always positive,

3:57

the universe would spin out of

3:57

control. And it wouldn't be a

4:02

balanced system. So that's the

4:02

macrocosm, right. But if you

4:08

bring it down into day to day

4:08

life, and even further into the

4:14

microcosm, you know, if you take

4:14

us and go in, in, in, in

4:19

sub-cellular, right, molecular,

4:19

even beyond that, atomic level,

4:25

even beyond that quarks, there's

4:25

still a positive and a negative.

4:30

And so why wouldn't we see that

4:30

theme in life itself? So as we

4:37

have life, we know there's

4:37

death. As we have death, we know

4:42

there's birth, and it's a

4:42

perfect system, I think. So, it

4:50

is tragic when things happen

4:50

that are terrible, but it's

4:56

probably not out of the realm of

4:56

physics. And we're just part of

5:03

that whole picture.

5:04

Right? How could

5:04

we be removed from that from

5:06

positive and negative?

5:07

I don't think we

5:07

can. But as humans, it's so hard

5:12

for us to accept. But in every

5:12

major tradition, and faith,

5:18

scripture, all of that, they're

5:18

all filled with both: the good,

5:25

the bad, the good, the bad. And

5:25

we hope, ultimately, for our own

5:32

lights and our own spirit that

5:32

we do, then eventually move more

5:39

and more, you know, toward the

5:39

light. And maybe at some point,

5:43

unbeknownst to us, totally

5:43

mysterious, the scales do shift

5:49

and the light will always

5:49

penetrate darkness. I don't

5:53

know.

5:54

It's a mystery.

5:54

But it's a beautiful mystery and

5:56

a beautiful thought.

5:57

It's a beautiful mystery.

5:59

Well, I want to

5:59

come back to sort of your

6:02

journey through religion and

6:02

spirituality throughout our

6:04

conversation. I think that

6:04

that's such an important thread

6:07

and such a big reason that I

6:07

wanted to talk to you. And I was

6:11

also thinking, there's so much

6:11

life that has happened since we

6:14

last saw each other. I don't

6:14

even know how old I was,

6:20

probably in middle school or

6:20

high school, but your whole path

6:24

has shifted. And I would love to

6:24

hear how you moved from working

6:30

in physical wellness and health

6:30

and fitness into spiritual

6:35

wellness. And this this

6:35

spiritual role.

6:39

It's been a

6:39

great journey. I have loved the

6:42

physical aspect of health care

6:42

and wellness and being really

6:42

Let me stretch.

6:46

involved in that. And within

6:46

that realm, I taught lots of

6:50

classes. And then I discovered

6:50

yoga and taught a lot of yoga

6:53

I just want to

6:53

stretch. But as the teaching

6:54

and did that up in Evergreen at

6:54

the Athletic Club with our dear

6:59

friend Jody. And when I first

6:59

started taking yoga, I would get

7:03

really irritated when the

7:03

instructor would talk about

7:07

energy. Oh, we're gonna open

7:07

your energetic body now, and

7:11

we're gonna create space and let

7:11

the energy flow. And I would

7:15

just tune out and say, nah nah nah.

7:23

progressed, it became clear that

7:23

I needed to have more

7:26

instruction and went for the

7:26

yoga teacher training

7:30

certification. And I did it at

7:30

an ashram that unbeknownst to

7:34

me, was very spiritually

7:34

oriented. It's called Shambhava

7:40

Yoga, and it's above Nederland.

7:40

And they also have an ashram in

7:44

Hawaii. So my girlfriend and I

7:44

did the immersion, which is a

7:48

best because then you just don't

7:48

come out, you really get it. So

7:52

within that immersion, there

7:52

were huge amounts of meditation

7:57

and silence. And it was in

7:57

Hawaii, and it was a two hour

8:04

meditation. I mean, that's how

8:04

long I had to be there to get a

8:09

download. But it came loud and

8:09

clear. And I was in a

8:13

transitional place because I was

8:13

aging out of the hardcore

8:18

physical fitness kind of thing.

8:18

And the clinical exercise

8:21

physiology jobs were just not

8:21

very plentiful. The girls were

8:27

growing older, I knew I had to

8:27

reenter the workforce in a big

8:30

way. And so anyway, I got this

8:30

message that said, you're in

8:37

healthcare, you love health

8:37

care, stay in health care, but

8:41

now we need to switch to

8:41

healthcare of the spirit, and

8:46

specifically around people

8:46

dying. And I resisted, you know,

8:53

I just thought, well, that's a

8:53

weird thing to kind of realize.

8:57

And so I kind of ignored it, and

8:57

it never went away. It was a

9:03

little voice still saying, you

9:03

know, go take a class, go learn

9:08

more about this. And then I kind

9:08

of put my big toe in the water

9:11

at Ilif and began to take some

9:11

classes there. And once I got in

9:16

there, it became apparent that

9:16

yes, this is the path I'm

9:19

supposed to take.

9:20

Wow. I didn't

9:20

realize so you had you started

9:22

taking just a few classes before

9:22

you decided to get a Master's in

9:26

I did, I even

9:26

audited a few. And then I signed

9:26

Divinity. up for a few and paid and then

9:29

pretty soon I entered the degree

9:33

program. And even at that point,

9:33

I was not sure about an M-Div

9:37

because that's a pretty big

9:37

commitment. But as I got further

9:42

into it, it became clear that

9:42

chaplaincy was the way I was

9:46

headed. Not the pulpit, not a

9:46

pastor, you know, not a mission

9:51

person but healthcare. So I'm I

9:51

just took the steps and finished

9:59

that degree. And within that

9:59

degree, you're required to do

10:03

this thing called Clinical

10:03

Pastoral Education, CPE. And

10:09

that is onsite,hands-on

10:09

internship. And things were very

10:15

rocky at home - a lot of trouble

10:15

in the marriage. And Hannah and

10:21

Kiah, were already out at

10:21

Dartmouth. And they said, Mom,

10:25

why don't you look into an

10:25

internship program here, and a

10:30

time for you to get out. And I

10:30

did, and I got accepted. And

10:34

then that was that. And I had

10:34

to, I did five units. Each one

10:39

of those are 400 hours. So it

10:39

takes years, but it's hands on

10:43

ministry in the hospital, or

10:43

hospice. So that's kind of how

10:48

it, how it went. And then about

10:48

12, 13 years now that I've been

10:55

on that little path.

10:57

So it was a huge

10:57

personal shift in your life, at

11:03

the same time as this huge shift

11:03

in your career.

11:05

That often happens.

11:06

I'm sure, once you

11:06

open yourself up to one big

11:10

revelation. Well, I I know

11:10

that...actually, I guess I don't

11:17

know. I want to I wanted to ask

11:17

you kind of about your how you

11:20

were raised? Have you always

11:20

been raised in religion?

11:25

Yes. We call

11:25

them cradle Catholic. So I was

11:30

in a little small town in

11:30

Wisconsin, and the entire town

11:33

was Catholic. I think there were

11:33

maybe three Jewish people in the

11:36

hole town. And there were

11:36

parochial schools. So we went to

11:44

the local parish school, which

11:44

meant that you went to Mass

11:50

every single day. So I knew the

11:50

entire mass in Latin by the time

11:54

I was, you know, eight. And

11:54

everything was centered in the

11:59

Catholic schools, around our

11:59

faith life, and in my family's

12:05

life, it was the same every

12:05

holiday, prayers every night,

12:09

prayers before meals, prayers in

12:09

the morning, the sacraments, the

12:14

big Holy Communion thing when

12:14

the little girl gets to dress up

12:17

in white and a vail and receive

12:17

Communion for the first time. So

12:21

that was all just blind, embeded

12:21

Catholocism for me, and some

12:28

pretty hefty theology that I

12:28

just didn't know any better. But

12:33

that continued. I went to all

12:33

the way through Catholic grade

12:36

school, Catholic High School,

12:36

and Catholic University at the

12:42

University, which was run by

12:42

Jesuits. Marquette University.

12:47

Jesuits are the most liberal

12:47

branch of the priesthood in

12:50

Catholicism. So they do

12:50

challenge you to think more

12:54

deeply about what it is we're

12:54

kind of being fed. And those

12:59

years were kind of a rebellious

12:59

time for me. I pretty much left.

13:04

And I actually fell in love with

13:04

a Jewish boy and was heading to

13:09

Israel to live in a Kibbutz and

13:09

was learning Hebrew. And my poor

13:14

little Catholic mother who was a

13:14

prayer warrior, direct line to

13:18

heaven. She apparently - I

13:18

didn't know this at the time -

13:22

but was on her knees. 24/7

13:22

praying that I would not go.

13:25

This was tumultuous times in

13:25

Israel in the 70s. And so she

13:30

was on her knees praying that I

13:30

wouldn't go and sure enough, my

13:33

beautiful Jewish boyfriend

13:33

dumped me.

13:36

And your mom said Hallelujah!

13:39

She did. So then

13:39

my plans changed. And I was a

13:43

dental hygienist at the time.

13:43

And in Milwaukee, and then

13:46

that's when I said, that's it.

13:46

You know, I'm heading West and I

13:51

got to Colorado. So

13:51

spirituality has been a huge

13:56

part of my life with those deep

13:56

roots of Catholicism. I still

14:02

love the ritual. I still love

14:02

going into any Cathedral in the

14:07

world and being right at home.

14:07

And now as an adult, having

14:13

travelled a wider road of

14:13

spirituality, particularly

14:18

through Eastern philosophy, I

14:18

can now go into the mass and

14:24

really get it and that this is,

14:24

this is a good thing. It doesn't

14:29

mean I'm a practicing Catholic,

14:29

I can't seem to return to that

14:35

because the road is very narrow.

14:35

But I do enjoy going to our

14:40

little church right here in

14:40

Silverthorne, the Catholic

14:42

Church and then I'll miss for

14:42

two months and then I'll go

14:45

again, but it's really the yogic

14:45

path that has led me to open up

14:53

my lens to real spirituality.

14:53

And I do see value in religion

15:00

because we're humans, and

15:00

sometimes we need structure. And

15:04

sometimes people need a map that

15:04

says, you know, do this, go to

15:09

point A, and when you're at

15:09

point A, get to point B, and

15:13

that's okay. And I think

15:13

religion has its purpose for

15:17

that. And also for community, I

15:17

mean, churches, temples,

15:22

ashrams, whatever it is, we as

15:22

humans seek one another and seek

15:29

to join in to have community

15:29

around this higher thing. So, I

15:37

think I have always been very

15:37

spiritual. Even as a child, my

15:43

mom and dad, both were, and I

15:43

had a very big dose of it. And

15:48

when I veered or swayed a

15:48

little, nobody was there saying,

15:52

Get back on the track, you know,

15:52

they were very open and loving

15:55

as well. So yeah, I love it all.

15:55

I love it all. If I would have

16:01

been born in Kabul, I'd be a

16:01

Muslim. If I was born in

16:05

Jerusalem, I'd be a Jew. I was

16:05

born here. I was born in

16:08

Wisconsin. So I was Catholic.

16:08

But it doesn't matter. It

16:13

doesn't matter. We're all in

16:13

this giant ocean of source. And

16:19

I say, just get in a boat. It

16:19

doesn't matter.

16:22

This reminds me so

16:22

much. And I mean, you probably

16:25

already know this, because you

16:25

knew my mom, well, but in the

16:28

last years of her life... Oh, my

16:28

goodness, exactly. Just a

16:34

massive expansion of what her

16:34

spirituality could encompass?

16:37

Yes! Because

16:37

when we were both together in

16:40

the van going to Yellowstone, we

16:40

were both in Bible studies, we

16:44

were both really tracking with

16:44

the Evangelical Christian path,

16:51

which is also awesome. But once

16:51

it starts to, to close you in

16:57

and become exclusive, then, you

16:57

know, I grew out of that too,

17:05

but your mom? Yeah, she got the

17:05

big, big revelations. You know,

17:14

Paul says, In Scripture, as my

17:14

physical body decreases, my

17:19

spiritual body increases. And

17:19

she was such an example of that.

17:28

And it was a long process for

17:28

her so we could all see it. And,

17:33

and watch it. Dometimes for

17:33

people it's, you know,

17:37

immediate, or sometimes it's,

17:37

you know, when they're in their

17:41

final two weeks of hospice care,

17:41

you can, you can see them

17:45

pulling inward and withdrawing

17:45

from their physical selves, but

17:51

really tapping into what's next.

17:55

Well that brings

17:55

me to something I really want to

17:57

dive into with you, too, it

17:57

strikes me that death is such a

18:01

part of your everyday work life.

18:01

And there's, there's probably so

18:06

much wisdom in that. I think,

18:06

seeing my mom's journey - and

18:10

obviously, she was so

18:10

spiritually attuned and very, I

18:15

guess, creative with how she

18:15

expressed that to all of us,

18:17

and, you know, she didn't make

18:17

it hard to find the lessons and

18:20

the gifts in that - but I

18:20

imagine that there's always

18:24

lessons and gifts and to be a

18:24

witness to that as part of your

18:29

day to day life.

18:30

Well, in the

18:30

beginning, it was hard, but

18:33

those internships that I

18:33

mentioned, are really intense

18:37

times of training and also for

18:37

psychological growth for us as

18:43

healthcare providers. So we

18:43

would debrief and process. I

18:49

remember one of my first

18:49

exposures when I just started at

18:55

the Dartmouth hospital, was a

18:55

very unfortunate...a young girl.

18:59

18 years old, I was in the

18:59

pediatric ward and you can be in

19:03

peds until you're 18. But she

19:03

went to a concert and some guy

19:08

offered her a little film of

19:08

paper to get a really great trip

19:13

and high for the concert. And it

19:13

didn't take a minute and she was

19:19

pretty much brain dead and ended

19:19

up in my peds unit. And it kind

19:26

of went on and on because once

19:26

everybody discovered that she

19:29

wasn't going to come back, then

19:29

we had to start thinking about

19:33

organ donation. And then that

19:33

took a long time and ministering

19:37

to this poor family that just

19:37

had this beautiful child. But

19:41

the point was, the girl looked a

19:41

lot like Hannah. And so that was

19:49

a real big realization for me

19:49

that okay, how do I separate

19:54

this from my own feelings, my

19:54

own life, and create boundaries

20:00

within the work, and sometimes

20:00

it's harder than others. But I

20:05

think that was one of the

20:05

biggest realizations about,

20:10

okay, if I'm going to be doing,

20:10

you know, death work, I can't

20:14

die a little bit with each of

20:14

these people. And in those

20:18

programs, those CPE things, we

20:18

were taught many different kinds

20:23

of techniques and boundaries to

20:23

contain our own identity apart.

20:30

You want to be involved with the

20:30

family, but you don't want to

20:33

own it, or you... or with the

20:33

patient, you try to be present

20:39

to the patient, and in a way

20:39

suffer along with them. But yet,

20:45

when the day is over, you have

20:45

to say, okay, that is suffering.

20:50

But now I'm walking home in the

20:50

gorgeous day with a blue sky.

20:55

And so you kind of had to do

20:55

some compartmentalization. But

21:00

there are a few cases along the

21:00

way that have been a lot tougher

21:05

than others. And then the

21:05

hospital work is a whole

21:09

different path than hospice,

21:09

because in the hospital, things

21:13

turn over quickly, and you don't

21:13

have the attachments as much to

21:16

the families and the patients.

21:16

But the trauma and the severity

21:21

of things is so much worse. So

21:21

the intensity is higher there.

21:27

But in hospice, you travel along

21:27

this journey with people

21:31

sometimes for months and months.

21:31

And then they let go, and then

21:36

you know, it's it's hard. But

21:36

you know what, for me anymore

21:40

now, I think I've been over at

21:40

over 400 deaths by now. And it's

21:45

not hard for me, because I have

21:45

had so many experiences, where

21:52

it is clear, clear as anything,

21:52

that we are going somewhere.

22:01

It's not over. It is not over.

22:01

And my my sister who died when

22:09

she was 86, several years before

22:09

she died, she she would say,

22:15

"well, I don't believe in

22:15

anything, I'm going to a big

22:18

black hole." And I said, well

22:18

Joanie, the power of

22:23

consciousness is huge. And if

22:23

you truly believe that you're

22:29

going to a big black hole, you

22:29

might just manifest that. So you

22:35

might want to change that big

22:35

black hole to a beautiful

22:38

setting, you know, that you love

22:38

in the forest on Lake Michigan,

22:43

and then go from there, what you

22:43

what you visualized, because I

22:47

think there's probably something to it.

22:49

And even if we're

22:49

wrong, what harm is ther in

22:52

believing in something really beautiful?

22:54

Doesn't hurt.

22:54

And that creates a more peaceful

22:57

and easy transition I think,

22:57

when people really do believe

23:03

that there is more.

23:05

There's sort of a

23:05

question circulating around in

23:07

my mind that I don't quite know

23:07

how to ask, but I think it's

23:10

something... one of the things

23:10

that was really challenging for

23:14

me in teaching, and I imagine in

23:14

any, you know, serving

23:18

profession is what you're

23:18

talking about those boundaries

23:21

where you love and you care, and

23:21

you are there with people, in

23:28

suport of people. And the

23:28

balance between that, with the

23:34

ability to compartmentalize

23:34

without becoming hardened. And I

23:39

wonder if you have any guidance

23:39

on, I'm sure it's, it's

23:43

different for everyone, but on

23:43

on how to establish that kind of

23:49

loving, caring presence without

23:49

letting it tear you apart every

23:55

time.

23:58

There's extremes

23:58

of that, you know, I think

24:00

physicians, and I see it in the

24:00

hospital, but they are very

24:03

hardened over time, because they

24:03

just see too much. And they

24:08

couldn't do what they do and

24:08

still survive with a family and

24:11

an outside life, if they let it

24:11

all come in all the time.

24:16

However, on the other hand, you

24:16

cannot be in a position of

24:21

service, giving, doing, and just

24:21

drain yourself constantly. So

24:28

the first thing is being able to

24:28

find ways that you can nourish

24:32

self, whether it's being in the

24:32

forest or going for a walk or

24:36

having tea or just taking time,

24:36

whatever, to identify those

24:40

areas of self care that are the

24:40

most valuable to oneself. And

24:45

for me, it's always nature and

24:45

stillness. That's where I

24:48

refuel, and also good quality

24:48

relationships. I don't have a

24:53

ton of relationships anymore,

24:53

but the ones I do have are

24:56

really high quality. But an

24:56

example that I had happen to me

25:02

was, I found myself crying all

25:02

the time. And my mentor said,

25:07

Mary, you you cannot do

25:07

effective deathbed ritual and

25:14

work if you're in there crying

25:14

the same as the family, you've

25:18

got to hold it together. So

25:18

being a person of faith and

25:22

prayer, I asked for help. And I

25:22

believe in very specific

25:29

requests in prayer, not just oh,

25:29

you know, make it easier or make

25:35

my life better or whatever, no

25:35

specific help, like I am crying

25:40

all the time, I need help in

25:40

controlling my crying.

25:44

Please seal up my tear ducts.

25:45

Exactly. But I

25:45

got this... I was quiet, and I

25:50

got this huge visual that came

25:50

to me pretty quickly. And it was

25:55

Christ Himself. And it was very

25:55

strange, because he was leaning

26:00

on his hand like this. And he,

26:00

he looked like a real kind of

26:05

manly man, not a spiritual guy

26:05

at all, you know, just a plain

26:09

old guy. He was wearing a robe,

26:09

though. And he said, I want you

26:14

to visualize just a tube of my

26:14

light, and all the way above

26:20

your head, all the way down into

26:20

the floor. And you only allow

26:31

what's absolutely necessary to

26:31

permeate that during the most

26:37

intense visits and the most

26:37

intense times. And you will be

26:42

able to hold back your, your

26:42

crying because it used to be

26:46

when I saw a person cry, I would

26:46

cry. And that's great empathy.

26:52

But it doesn't serve what I'm

26:52

supposed to be doing in the

26:56

moment. So I practiced that. And

26:56

then it got to the point where I

27:01

could just do it. And I can

27:01

still do it in the worst of

27:05

things, I can still do it.

27:05

Because they're counting on

27:11

somebody, usually around the

27:11

deathbed anyway, to kind of hold

27:16

things together, and not

27:16

completely melt down into into

27:21

chaos. But I have gotten the

27:21

crying under control. And I

27:29

think I have really healthy

27:29

boundaries. And it just takes

27:33

time. But you have to make a

27:33

conscious intention and ask for,

27:38

I believe, ask for assistance,

27:38

because sometimes these things

27:41

are more than we can handle.

27:46

Wow. Well, that is

27:46

a huge part of it, having

27:50

boundaries and being a source of

27:50

light and calm and bringing it

27:54

back to a spiritual space or a

27:54

sacred space. How else have you

27:59

found is helpful to be with

27:59

people when they're in the

28:04

toughest moments?

28:04

Yeah, you know,

28:04

I have my own little ritual. And

28:08

when I know I'm going into a

28:08

tough room, or a tough

28:11

situation, I stop outside of the

28:11

door. I do my hand washing, I

28:20

breathe, I do a lot of

28:20

breathing. I close my eyes. And

28:25

since it's my imbedded theology

28:25

and faith of origin kind of

28:28

comfortable language, I call in

28:28

the Holy Spirit. And I just say

28:33

move through me. I can't really

28:33

do this but you can and then I

28:41

go in. And I'm not the only one

28:41

that says stuff like this, most

28:48

chaplains have had these kinds

28:48

of experiences and would say a

28:54

similar thing. We we can't do it

28:54

on our own. So we we call in the

29:01

bigger power almost a

29:01

surrendering, let me be vessel

29:07

through which you flow through.

29:07

Doesn't happen overnight. And

29:11

I'm old. I mean, it's taken me

29:11

55 years to get to a point of

29:19

wisdom where some of this stuff

29:19

is available. I mean I was

29:28

living life and going for a

29:28

career and raising kids and you

29:32

know loving Evergreen and my

29:32

life and all of it. You know

29:36

living in the in the life zone,

29:36

but it changes with time or

29:42

maybe it changes with younger

29:42

people through an event. And

29:48

also some people are just born

29:48

that way. You know, they're just

29:52

old souls. And they get it early

29:52

on. I wasn't one of those.

29:59

That's reassuring,

29:59

I certainly don't have my 50

30:02

year plan laid out. Well, that

30:02

is such a beautiful part of your

30:08

work. But I know it's not the

30:08

only part of your work. What is

30:12

the part of your spiritual work

30:12

that you call spiritual

30:16

guidance? What does that look like?

30:18

That's so

30:18

wonderful, you know, within the

30:21

Ilif program, and within that

30:21

seminary experience, we had the

30:25

opportunity to do a two year

30:25

program at the Benedictine

30:29

monastery in Colorado Springs.

30:29

So we were in Spiritual

30:35

Direction, which is where I

30:35

think what you're referring to.

30:38

It's sort of a journeying with

30:38

another person that wants to

30:42

explore their spirituality. And

30:42

so that particular program was

30:48

really a training for that

30:48

avenue. And generally people who

30:53

want to do that are in some sort

30:53

of crisis. And they're asking,

31:00

you know, what the heck, why is

31:00

this fair? Or where's God here?

31:05

Or who is God? Or why don't I

31:05

even like God? Or I don't want

31:09

to be part of God, or, and they

31:09

still have this, somehow this

31:15

yearning to explore. So the role

31:15

of a spiritual director is to

31:21

sort of journey alongside of a

31:21

person, the name is bad, because

31:27

it's not that we're directing.

31:27

And we're just trying to go

31:30

along with the person and

31:30

challenge them around their own

31:36

spiritual journey. An exercise

31:36

that I usually start with with

31:40

people is to begin to write

31:40

their autobiography, however

31:46

they'd like, and then go back

31:46

after that, and overlay on top

31:52

of that, any kind of spiritual,

31:52

anything that might have

31:58

happened along the way, and then

31:58

of course, you with your mom's

32:03

journey, and your your dad's,

32:03

you know brilliance in yoga and

32:08

philosophy, maybe that's part of

32:08

your spiritual journey. But to

32:14

try to just know where God is in

32:14

your life, what does that mean

32:20

to you, and there's no goal in

32:20

mind, there's no end point, it's

32:27

like, going to therapy, only way

32:27

better. Because in the end, you

32:34

know, spirit rules, it just

32:34

does. I think you can fix all

32:38

the problems. But until you

32:38

really are in touch with spirit

32:42

and know that, ultimately, we're

32:42

an observer, ultimately watching

32:50

the drama of our lives unfold.

32:50

And when you can retreat into

32:54

the observer place, there's

32:54

nothing you can't handle. And

33:00

that's what your, that's where

33:00

your mom was, I mean, she got to

33:03

the point where I think it was

33:03

always hard. But I think she was

33:07

still tuned in to this process

33:07

is really separate from my

33:13

essence. So if there would be a

33:13

goal in spiritual journeying, or

33:18

spiritual direction, my agenda,

33:18

which I shouldn't have, it would

33:22

be to get people to be still and

33:22

quiet for at least 20 minutes a

33:28

day. And then these things begin

33:28

to happen. I mean, there's brain

33:32

changes. And it's not just

33:32

woowoo stuff, it's physiological

33:36

change. There's a portion of the

33:36

brain that lights up as

33:40

spirituality increases, in the

33:40

old amygdala, where survival is,

33:45

it doesn't light up.

33:46

It quiets down? I

33:46

love that. I've been kind of at

33:51

the beginning of my meditation

33:51

journey and starting out small.

33:55

It's everything.

33:56

It's amazing. I'm

33:56

in a personal challenge right

33:59

now to meditate 100 days in a

33:59

row. I actually have done this a

34:03

few times, and I want to make

34:03

it, you know, an ongoing part of

34:06

my life. And I have been blown

34:06

away I think exactly what you're

34:12

saying that when I take the time

34:12

to let my amygdala shut down,

34:18

and that voice that says, What

34:18

are you thinking, what's your

34:20

plan? What are you gonna do...

34:21

the laundry?

34:21

groceries, you know, I mean,

34:25

that's how it is right?

34:26

For that just to

34:26

slow down. And I think I have

34:29

this... this new faith, I guess,

34:29

to put it in a simple way that I

34:37

know I can be honest with myself

34:37

and that I will be and so

34:41

whatever comes at me sideways

34:41

that I can process that in a way

34:46

of really listening to what

34:46

my... whatever it is, what my

34:51

spirit is telling me is right.

34:53

Yeah, I think

34:53

that is the beauty of

34:56

meditation. We're always going

34:56

to have the thoughts coming in,

35:01

but if we can watch them like

35:01

scenes in a movie, just let them

35:04

pass by, and then return to the

35:04

breath. And, you know, you can

35:09

have 1000 meditation sessions,

35:09

and maybe have a split second of

35:14

something great. You know or

35:14

maybe never, but it through the

35:18

process, things do change, the

35:18

body's happy, it's calming down,

35:26

and even the cellular changes

35:26

are amazing, your immune systems

35:30

go up the, the blood pressure

35:30

goes down, and I mean, it's a

35:34

big deal. And then when all that

35:34

happens, then the spaciousness

35:39

is there for more of that

35:39

energetic anatomy to really do

35:45

its thing. And then that's where

35:45

I think the big downloads come,

35:52

the comfort comes, and most

35:52

importantly, the peace. That's

35:58

what I meant when I say peace is

35:58

always possible. But we have to

36:03

be familiar enough with being

36:03

the silent witness. Watching the

36:09

drama. That's not easy.

36:12

No, and I think it

36:12

can be intimidating at first,

36:14

too .I think this certainly was

36:14

not my first exposure to

36:17

meditation because you know who

36:17

my parents are. But I picked up

36:22

a book at a local bookstore

36:22

called Meditation for Fidgety

36:26

Skeptics.

36:27

Oh, really?

36:28

And I'm forgetting

36:28

his name. It's Dan something.

36:30

I'm sorry that I'm not giving

36:30

credit, but I'll link it.

36:33

I have a book

36:33

called Meditation for the Love

36:36

of It.

36:36

Oh, I'd love to

36:36

read that also. But I remember

36:40

what are the most helpful and

36:40

kind of obvious in retrospect,

36:44

one of the most helpful things

36:44

he wrote about was, when you

36:48

recognize those thoughts popping

36:48

up, it's not that you are

36:51

failing at meditation, that's

36:51

the whole success. You caught

36:54

it.

36:54

It is. You're looking at it.

36:56

You're tuned in

36:56

enough to recognize the brain

36:59

chatter. And that's, you know,

36:59

that's such an important step

37:03

and allowing that brain chatter

37:03

just to settle.

37:05

And who is that?

37:05

Who is that that's watching the

37:08

brain chatter? That's the

37:08

question. That's the yoga,

37:12

bringing those two together. I

37:12

like to think of it, it's not

37:16

the best analogy, but if all of

37:16

our thoughts in our lives and

37:20

everything tangible and going on

37:20

is the orchestra, a big Symphony

37:25

Orchestra, right, all kinds of

37:25

music, things going on at once,

37:28

many different notes being

37:28

played in that the symphony is

37:32

going on, well, there has to be

37:32

a conductor, conducting all of

37:38

that business going on. And

37:38

that's kind of the the mental

37:43

piece that the orchestra itself,

37:43

it's just the physical crazy,

37:47

but the conductors sort of the

37:47

mental piece, but who's the

37:53

director behind the curtain? You

37:53

know, that's really that's where

38:00

it comes from? And that's

38:00

abstract, but it's possible to,

38:06

to realize that. Yeah.

38:09

Well, going back

38:09

to that kind of spiritual

38:13

directing and what that means,

38:13

you also wrote about on your

38:17

website, this kind of looking at

38:17

encounters with the divine that

38:23

you're looking for those in

38:23

someone's life journey. What do

38:28

you mean by that? What are

38:28

examples?

38:30

What words did I

38:30

use exactly? Do you have it?

38:33

Absolutely. You

38:33

said, "the person seeking

38:35

direction share stories of their

38:35

encounters of the Divine."

38:39

Yeah, yeah. So

38:39

people often will have moments

38:44

of awe. And they, they don't

38:44

understand it, you know, maybe

38:49

it's when they're little, and

38:49

they're laying in the driveway,

38:51

looking at the stars. Or maybe

38:51

it's when they're hiking, and

38:56

they get to the edge of the

38:56

Grand Canyon, and they look down

39:00

into it. And, or maybe it's when

39:00

their child is born. Or maybe

39:06

when it's when a loved one dies.

39:06

But most humans are going to be

39:14

able to identify some instances

39:14

along the way where they maybe

39:21

have considered that there might

39:21

be something bigger, and maybe

39:27

we're connected somehow to that

39:27

something bigger. So spiritual

39:32

direction and journeying is

39:32

trying to travel along on

39:37

somebody's life journey and help

39:37

them recognize those points,

39:43

because those are points of

39:43

light where where we can say,

39:52

hmm, I'm really maybe not in

39:52

charge. Maybe it's okay, maybe I

39:59

can surrender a little bit and

39:59

maybe I can let go to a bigger

40:03

plan. You know, certainly in 12

40:03

steps, spirituality around

40:09

substance abuse and alcohol,

40:09

that's step one is realizing

40:13

that, you know, this is bigger

40:13

than me, I'm not in control

40:17

here, I'm going to need a lot of

40:17

help. I surrender. So there, I

40:23

think it's a message in many of

40:23

the faith traditions. But I

40:28

think that's what I was trying

40:28

to convey is that we all have

40:32

moments where we suspect that

40:32

there might be something bigger

40:39

than us. And then if so, let's

40:39

explore that, even if it was

40:44

just a moment.

40:47

Something I've

40:47

been exploring a lot in this

40:49

transition, and I think a huge

40:49

part of why I ultimately decided

40:54

to transition out of teaching

40:54

was this, I guess, this gut

40:59

feeling after watching my mom's

40:59

journey as she was dying and

41:03

recognizing what was important

41:03

to her. And I, I felt that in

41:08

the chaos of that environment,

41:08

and in the relentless, never

41:13

ending work or that role, that I

41:13

was missing so much of that awe,

41:20

and that those opportunities to

41:20

be quiet and to be still, and to

41:27

acknowledge that we're not in

41:27

charge, that there's something

41:30

much bigger going on, were

41:30

diminished. And I think what I'm

41:36

sort of struggling with and

41:36

trying to get to a point of more

41:39

clarity on is that I don't think

41:39

the answer for me is to sit idly

41:46

in meditation for the rest of my

41:46

life, you know, I do want to be

41:51

in a position where I can be

41:51

actively involved and giving of

41:54

the gifts that I've received.

41:57

That's a huge goal.

41:59

Right. It's a huge goal.

42:01

It's good, that's good.

42:04

It seems to me

42:04

from the outside, that you do

42:07

have this kind of career and

42:07

this professional life that is

42:13

in tune with your desire for

42:13

those moments of awe and for

42:17

connection to something bigger.

42:17

And, I wonder, was that

42:24

something that you're looking

42:24

for specifically.

42:26

I think it's a

42:26

process. I think it just

42:29

develops into more depth as you

42:29

go. But I hear you saying, you

42:35

know, you were in the hardcore,

42:35

physical, superficial work of

42:41

things. And your story now has

42:41

that chapter in it. And I think

42:47

our bodies are our stories. And

42:47

because you've had those intense

42:53

experiences like that, and they

42:53

were superficial and hard,

42:59

physical work. It doesn't mean

42:59

that there's not in the future,

43:05

a huge revelation around all of

43:05

that. You're pretty fresh, out

43:11

of a very big, a very, very big

43:11

intense journey, and process.

43:17

And it has its gifts, but boy,

43:17

it had its burdens, and still

43:22

does, I'm sure. So I think being

43:22

patient and time. And getting

43:28

just the next step. this is your

43:28

next step, what you're doing

43:34

right now and the processing

43:34

that you're doing, and the

43:40

journaling and the reflecting

43:40

and, and the little bit of quiet

43:45

but a lot of activity to you're

43:45

young and it can be out there

43:51

and really serving and doing

43:51

maybe you'll find that, you

43:57

know, you'll want to take a

43:57

certain new journey in education

44:03

and go back yet again and do

44:03

something completely different

44:08

in more of this kind of realm.

44:08

But I think it's a process step

44:11

Something similar,

44:11

I think. Tell me what it is.

44:14

by step by step by step. And

44:14

those superficial things are

44:20

fine. And obviously, in your

44:20

journey, they were necessary,

44:25

right? I mean, your family at

44:25

that memorial service. I mean,

44:31

all of your family were just to

44:31

do what you guys did and Allan

44:37

to do everything he did I mean

44:37

it, it was kind of superhuman.

44:43

Really. So you've already had a

44:43

huge thing. I mean, I never had

44:49

to do that.I was with my parents

44:49

when they died, but it was

44:55

nothing like that. They had

44:55

easy, easy journeys. And I

45:00

always recommend to people on

45:00

the spiritual direction path

45:05

start praying now for what you

45:05

want your death to be. I don't

45:11

know about your mom. But I think

45:11

a weird theorie is called Soul

45:17

theory, have you heard of it.

45:24

We're kind of in

45:24

this realm before we get here,

45:28

right? And you decide, before

45:28

you even get here, what big,

45:33

giant lessons you're gonna take

45:33

on, what challenges you're going

45:39

to take on to teach others for

45:39

your own growth. But you don't

45:45

remember any of that when you

45:45

get here. But then you live it

45:50

out. And a person like your mom,

45:50

that's a really advanced soul.

45:56

Quadriplegics, same thing. You

45:56

know, maybe maybe we come here,

46:02

with, with Dharma, or a purpose.

46:02

And we already know that in the

46:07

previous realm, then we come to

46:07

school on Earth, and we do our

46:13

thing, and we do our teaching,

46:13

and we do our journeys. And then

46:19

we go back, and you know how to

46:19

go. People that have such

46:24

challenging journeys, like your

46:24

mom, to me, if soul theory has

46:30

anything, and there's no way to

46:30

prove it. But kind of makes

46:35

sense. If, if there's anything

46:35

to it, that's a very advanced

46:41

soul. And I believe that, you

46:41

know, in the Bible, it says, My

46:46

Father's house has many rooms.

46:46

And I think people, people do

46:52

continue to evolve in the next

46:52

realm. I don't think you show up

46:57

with a harp on a cloud and

46:57

suddenly are peaceful. I think

47:03

there's, there's more work up

47:03

there. But you, you show up

47:08

based on perhaps how you

47:08

journeyed and advanced your soul

47:13

here. You know, there's, once

47:13

you get going with this stuff,

47:19

there's just there's no end to

47:19

it. It's just an infinite

47:24

mystery. A really lovely one.

47:26

Right. A really

47:26

lovely one. And that idea of

47:26

Yeah, and I

47:26

think coming to the realization

47:28

expanding the realm of our

47:28

spirituality, rather than

47:32

contracting and narrowing down.

47:32

Mary, It's so delightful to have

47:36

a real conversation with so much

47:36

depth. And just gives me, I

47:42

think, so much to think about,

47:42

in one sense, but also a lot of

47:47

peace in the idea that slowing

47:47

down and quieting down and

47:52

listening to our intuition or

47:52

what our souls already know, is

47:58

a path forward, too. that all things are well with

48:03

the soul, you know. So it's my

48:09

pleasure, because, you know,

48:09

you're young, like my daughters,

48:13

and at this time of life, I

48:13

think it's hard for people your

48:17

age to even have these

48:17

conversations. And I'm sure

48:22

because of your mom's journey,

48:22

it's front and center. But it's

48:27

hard. It's everybody's journey

48:27

in their own time, nothing can

48:33

be forced, and nothing can be

48:33

planned. It's all I think it's

48:38

all gonna unfold as it should.

48:45

I love that.

48:45

That's a beautiful place to end,

48:47

I think it's all gonna unfold as

48:47

it should.

48:51

Well, let's end

48:51

with one little closing of our

48:53

eyes and taking in a really deep

48:53

breath and just breathe in all

48:59

the goodness of this present

48:59

moment in this day. And

49:04

breathing out any of the

49:04

worries, anxieties, tensions

49:08

that maybe the body holds onto

49:08

and utilize the breath like

49:14

that. And then maybe we can just

49:14

close with honoring the one of

49:22

10,000 names that we don't

49:22

understand, that we find so

49:28

mysterious, so big by yet

49:28

exactly right in the middle of

49:35

us, and right in our hearts, and

49:35

our minds as this great shining

49:43

light. And we strive in whatever

49:43

way we can to bring ourselves

49:47

back to that place, that idea. I

49:47

pray these things for you Lily

49:56

and I see the bright light

49:56

shining in you

50:00

Thank you. I have

50:00

so much love for you and your

50:03

girls, and it's so sweet to get

50:03

to see you.

50:06

Isn't it just so true.

50:06

Thank you.

50:07

You're welcome. It's my pleasure.

50:13

Thank you for

50:13

listening to this episode of the

50:16

Open Exploration Podcast. If you

50:16

like what you heard, share it

50:20

with a friend or casually bring

50:20

it up in conversation with a

50:24

friendly stranger. However you

50:24

get the word out, it means the

50:28

world to us. You can also donate

50:28

at our website

50:31

openexploration.org. If you're

50:31

interested in sponsoring the

50:34

show, or if you or someone you

50:34

know would like to share your

50:38

story, send an email to

50:38

[email protected] That's

50:42

L-i-l--y just like the flower,

50:42

at open exploration.org. You can

50:46

also find us on Instagram and

50:46

Facebook at

50:48

openexplorationpodcast. This

50:48

show is produced by me Lily

50:52

Werthan. The voices that you'll

50:52

hear at the very end are my four

50:56

and five year old nephew and

50:56

nieces. Thank you to Poddington

51:00

Bear, Jon Sibb and the other

51:00

unlisted artists for freely

51:03

sharing your music that brings

51:03

this podcast to life. To all of

51:07

Thank you love to

51:07

you all, and until next time,

51:11

happy exploring THANKS FOR LISTENING!