0:10

Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast

0:12

with Angie Rozier , hosted

0:15

by Birth Learning , where we

0:17

help prepare folks for labor and birth

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with expertise coming from 20

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years of experience in a busy Dula

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practice helping thousands

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of people prepare for labor , providing

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essential knowledge and tools for

0:30

positive and empowering birth experiences

0:33

.

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Welcome to the Ordinary Dula Podcast . My

0:47

name is Angie Rozier , your host , and we are sponsored

0:50

by Birth Learning . Today's

0:52

podcast we have a special guest and

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a special topic too . There's

0:56

a lot

0:58

of preparation folks do for the

1:00

day that they have a baby and the labor

1:02

process and birth procedures

1:04

, but then we have all these days

1:07

, weeks and months that we have the baby

1:09

in our life . So we're going to talk about

1:11

preparation for postpartum and

1:14

what people can do to kind of transition

1:16

that and specifically the nighttime

1:18

. So we have with us today Angela Hayman

1:20

. She is a nighttime

1:22

, a postpartum Dula , specifically

1:25

focused on nighttime care of

1:27

babies for families . So , angela

1:29

, I'll let you introduce yourself a little bit . We've had

1:31

her on the podcast before . She has pretty incredible

1:33

stories , but we're going to kind of focus on her current

1:35

career , or a piece of it anyway , and

1:38

she's going to introduce herself to us a little bit about her

1:41

role as a postpartum

1:43

Dula . So , angela go for it .

1:46

My name is Angela Hayman . Like Angie

1:49

said , I am a postpartum night

1:51

Dula . I have been doing

1:53

this for nine and a half

1:55

almost 10 years . I

1:57

actually started with Angie's group and

2:01

then , in 2017 , branched

2:03

out and started my own business called

2:06

the Good Night Nanny . And

2:08

then I since then have I

2:10

have six ladies working for me six

2:12

, six and a half , because Angie helps

2:14

out once a month

2:17

to help out with me and , oh

2:19

my gosh , it's just my passion . I cannot believe

2:21

how much I love helping

2:23

people take

2:26

care of their babies and help teaching them

2:29

how to have them sleep and just normal

2:31

infant behavior . I call it my dream

2:33

job that I never knew I wanted .

2:36

Very cool , Awesome . So tell me

2:38

some basics of what a postpartum

2:40

night Dula . We have day and postpartum

2:43

day help and postpartum night help and this

2:45

we're going to focus on the nighttime . So

2:47

tell me kind

2:49

of basically , what does a postpartum night Dula

2:51

? If somebody was having someone come to their home at night and help

2:53

them , what can they expect ?

2:56

I can speak to my group and what we do

2:58

. I think everyone has different little

3:00

tweaks , but our I always

3:02

say that we are parent led support

3:05

. So those mom

3:07

and dad made that baby . They

3:10

get to choose how . They

3:12

get

3:15

to choose what method they want at night , whether it's co sleeping

3:17

, nursing , pumping formula . We're

3:20

there to support them and then offer little

3:22

light , if we can see it , maybe it's going in

3:24

a direction that might not end

3:26

. Well , we can be like oh , how about this ? And

3:28

we have this question and help

3:33

them with the tips that they need

3:35

to have . Ultimately

3:38

, a baby that sleeps through the night , like that's

3:40

. Our goal is like give mom and dad

3:43

and baby the most sleep they can possibly

3:45

get , because they've been through a lot and

3:47

it takes sleep to recover . That's

3:50

I always say if you're not sleeping , you're

3:52

not recovering . So we

3:55

go to the house of the families

3:57

and we take

4:00

care of the baby throughout the night and

4:02

hoping that

4:04

the things that we do will

4:07

feed into the nights that we're

4:09

not there , because rarely do people

4:11

have us come seven nights a week , and

4:14

so we're hoping to teach the baby and the parents habits

4:16

on the nights we're not there . They're getting just

4:18

as much sleep as they did when the

4:20

nights we are there .

4:23

Okay . So I know , like

4:25

babies sleeping through the night , that's dreamy

4:27

sounding . How realistic is

4:29

that ? Like what ? We don't expect

4:31

that on day one or day two or week two or

4:34

week three ? Have you seen

4:36

a general pattern ? And I know a lot of

4:38

factors come into this , like with

4:41

breastfeeding especially . Sometimes , you know , if

4:43

we have babies who sleep all the way through

4:45

the night , that can impact milk supply for those who are

4:47

breastfeeding . So tell us a little bit about a timeframe

4:50

when people can realistically expect

4:52

the baby to sleep through the night , and through the night might

4:54

not mean a solid eight hours

4:56

. Yeah , it's subjective , right

4:58

, but tell us about timeframes .

5:00

Gosh , I think that there's so many variables

5:02

that go into it , because sometimes

5:05

it's about the goals of the parents

5:07

and how

5:11

often , like because some parents are okay , like letting the

5:13

baby sleep as long as they want , and then just when

5:15

they wake up we feed them , and some are

5:17

, like I need to nurse every three hours , especially

5:20

while I'm establishing my milk supply , but

5:23

then I think a lot is the baby's personality

5:25

, like I , we have babies

5:27

that are 12 to 16 weeks

5:30

old that are still waking up every

5:32

three hours , and then this

5:34

year alone I've had two babies who

5:36

are sleeping truly through

5:38

the night by three weeks old

5:40

. Wow . We're talking

5:43

like 10pm to

5:45

6am through the night , or they breastfed

5:47

, babies Breastfed . Both of them were breastfed

5:49

babies and milk supply was okay . Yeah

5:51

, the mom would have to wake up once in

5:53

the night to pump , sometimes twice

5:56

. Just we call I call it their boob

5:58

alarm . When your boob alarm goes off

6:00

, then you wake up and pump , and

6:02

so they were still keeping

6:04

their milk supply up , but also not disrupting

6:07

the habit that the baby had

6:09

of sleeping for the night and

6:11

getting like we're

6:13

just like forming habits and trying

6:16

to make them go , but like

6:19

overall I

6:22

would say 16 weeks is usually the

6:24

earliest that you can expect that

6:26

and I also do

6:28

cried out sleep training , which I know can be controversial

6:31

and that's okay because some people are okay

6:33

with it , some people aren't . But I will

6:35

not do that before 16 weeks because of

6:37

object permanence and babies

6:39

just needing that love and attention

6:42

and , honestly , the nourishment Right

6:44

. Like we said , every baby has a

6:46

different personality and different needs and

6:49

so I would say , don't

6:51

be worried

6:53

if your baby's not sleeping through the night before

6:55

16 weeks , and even then sometimes

6:58

it takes longer .

6:59

Yeah , some babies that are closer to a year

7:01

, yes , exactly

7:03

.

7:04

It really does . There's things that you can

7:06

do to help encourage it , but also

7:08

sometimes parents are fine with it . They're

7:11

like they're babies at night and it

7:13

just depends on what works for your family . There's

7:15

no wrong way to do it .

7:18

So you don't go in with a specific recipe for every family

7:20

you love the parent led . What

7:22

I think is amazing in doing postpartum work

7:24

and it's really never failed

7:26

. As you go in and the parents whatever

7:29

they say is right Like they're gonna say , okay

7:31

, the baby does this and this , like they'll kind

7:33

of tell you what to expect and they nail it so

7:36

they know their babies and

7:39

they're just looking for that extra support . Sometimes

7:42

we work with first time parents , right . So

7:44

tell me about working with first time parents

7:46

and how you might guide them through some tips

7:49

. What are some tips to look for

7:51

healthy sleep behaviors for babies and

7:53

for parents ? Because sometimes , even when we have a good sleep

7:55

or a baby , parents aren't

7:57

able to get good rest . So how do you get

7:59

that in the first time parents ?

8:02

Okay , so I

8:05

, I , we do something on my team

8:07

called sleep queuing that helps

8:10

teach babies the habits that

8:12

they need to be able to sleep longer

8:14

and to teach themselves

8:16

that they can sleep longer . And I'm

8:18

going to say this with the caveat that

8:20

milk supply has been established , that

8:23

so this is not

8:25

like on . Well , some of them are on

8:27

day one , but

8:29

there's

8:32

like those first two weeks can be a little bit

8:34

different , right ?

8:34

Then next week after that .

8:36

So I'll just talk about all of this as if

8:38

milk supply has been established , baby's a good

8:41

nurse or a good bottle feeder and

8:43

they're good to go . So

8:45

the first thing we do is turn

8:48

off all lights . There's no light on in the

8:50

room . I

8:52

really encourage a white noise machine

8:54

of some kind that is on the same

8:56

noise every night . These love

8:59

routines . They love routines

9:01

so much so that some I'll even tell parents

9:04

put your baby in the same swaddle

9:06

every single night , in a different swaddle

9:08

than they nap in , because they recognize

9:10

that as a cue . Oh , this is the time when I'm

9:12

going to sleep longer than I usually

9:14

sleep . Also

9:17

, I think we need to give babies more credit

9:19

than we do . Sometimes

9:21

, especially as a first time parent , you hear

9:23

the baby make the tiniest little noise and

9:26

you run up and run over and either pick them

9:28

up or put their binky in , or

9:30

they're making

9:34

a noise . So something needs to be done . We

9:37

always say that we let the baby

9:40

try to self soothe . It's

9:42

hard to say how much time , because

9:44

that again plays into baby's personality

9:46

. It could be anywhere from 30

9:49

seconds to 10 minutes . It

9:51

is completely normal for

9:53

a baby to be grunting and making

9:55

noise as well while they're sleeping . That does not

9:57

mean that they're awake or that they're hungry . You

10:01

know that point . When they're like okay , this is getting

10:03

inconsolable and they need some kind of intervention

10:05

. I think that oftentimes

10:08

you're very surprised by how well

10:10

your baby can go back to sleep . Another

10:15

thing we do is a super tight swaddle just

10:19

to combat that moral reflex

10:21

where they're like jerking and waking themselves

10:23

up . If

10:25

baby cannot self soothe

10:28

after whatever amount we'll say it's like

10:30

one minute and baby is obviously crying

10:32

and unable to self soothe , at that point

10:34

we put their pacifier in

10:36

their mouth , if they have one , and

10:39

we'll try that like a few times . If it's clear

10:42

that the pacifier is not soothing them

10:44

, then at that point we'll pick them up , put

10:46

the pacifier in their mouth and do a gentle bum

10:49

pat . I like to steer away

10:51

from like bouncing on the yoga ball

10:53

and rocking , heavy rocking , because

10:55

every variable you introduce to a baby

10:58

they start to expect it . And so

11:00

if you're just doing a gentle , bum pat yeah

11:02

, exactly , if you're doing a gentle

11:04

bum pat , then they're like oh , that's my

11:06

cue to go back to sleep , and I recommend

11:08

, do that at bedtime as well . Like don't

11:11

do huge bouncing and huge

11:14

rocking , just gentle bum pat . These

11:16

are all things that are babies like . Oh , when

11:19

mom or dad does that , that

11:21

means it's time for me to go back to sleep and

11:23

then , if that doesn't work , then baby's truly

11:26

hungry and it's time to feed the baby

11:28

. But I also say after

11:30

again milk supply is established

11:33

, baby's a good latch or a good eater that

11:35

you never wake a sleeping baby unless

11:37

there's a reason that the pediatrician

11:39

has told you . Because if you

11:42

teach , if you wake a sleeping baby , then you're

11:44

teaching them to wake up rather than teaching

11:46

them to sleep . And again , this is all based

11:48

on like nighttime and trying to establish

11:50

those routines .

11:51

Right , right . I love that and I've often

11:53

found in my work my postpartum night

11:55

work specifically same thing a rhythmic

11:57

padding . I think that

12:00

rhythm pat their back , pat their bum , like

12:02

yep , that helps them to go back to sleep

12:04

. Very cool . What

12:07

a next question . So what

12:10

are a lot of parents ? What

12:12

do you think they value most from your

12:15

services , like what seems to be ? What

12:18

do they enjoy the most ?

12:20

I would say , by and large , the

12:23

biggest feedback I get is they

12:26

all say it in different ways , but

12:28

the way I would say it is that they get

12:30

to sleep with both ears shut

12:32

.

12:32

They don't , they don't they can calm your

12:35

open .

12:35

Yeah , they turn off their monitor

12:37

. They don't have to listen , they

12:40

? I think , angie , you're the one that

12:42

told me they pay for your trust .

12:44

Right , it's a huge part of it .

12:46

So I so , like we have

12:48

, for example , I'm working with a mom

12:50

right now . It's one of the babies that started sleeping through

12:53

the week at three , sleeping through the night at three

12:55

weeks . She sleeps from 9pm

12:58

to 9am every night , even

13:00

when we're not there , but she still has us

13:02

come twice a week because

13:05

she has a really intense job

13:07

that requires a lot of concentration

13:09

and focus and she has four kids under

13:12

five years old , and so she's

13:14

like those two nights . Just let me get

13:17

the deepest , most restorative

13:20

sleep that I can get . Yeah

13:22

, even though the baby's sleeping through the night , so

13:24

I would say that's the biggest one is they can just sleep with

13:26

both ears shut .

13:28

Just confidently fall asleep , okay , and

13:31

then tell me too , for

13:33

new parents and I've been

13:35

in this situation before as a

13:37

postpartum doula I think it's really tricky

13:39

, hopefully

13:43

, you know , postpartum doulas are kind of on the same page

13:45

about this . Like we don't tell people how to parent , right

13:48

, we're not going in and saying you should

13:50

do this , you should do that . So

13:52

how do you go about guiding

13:54

folks ? Like sometimes and we

13:56

have some folks who are very understandably

13:59

so , especially first-time parents who

14:01

are very they're unfamiliar with

14:03

newborn life

14:05

, right , like what that sounds like

14:07

, smells like , feels like there's lots

14:10

of new sounds , and they're worried

14:12

about this tiny little baby . So how do

14:14

you guide them into understanding

14:16

normals in the gentlest ways

14:19

? Because I think we always want to leave parents empowered

14:21

, right , and and and I

14:23

mean we're going to leave , right , we leave their

14:25

homes , postpartum

14:27

doulas , we work ourselves out of a job , like

14:29

we don't . We've never stayed until a baby's 18 years old

14:31

, right , it's just that first

14:33

little bit . So how , what are some ways to

14:36

guide parents to be self-sufficient

14:38

in this and confident , especially those new parents who

14:40

are nervous about some things ?

14:42

Yeah , that's a good point . I always say that I'm

14:44

always trying to get laid off , yeah .

14:49

Trying to get , trying to lose my job ?

14:50

Yeah , I'm always trying to lose my job , gosh

14:53

, I would say , first and foremost , just

14:56

verbally , building their confidence telling

14:58

them you have great instincts , you're

15:00

doing the right thing , that was the perfect

15:03

thing to do . Like just even tiny

15:05

little aspects of of

15:07

the parenting world

15:10

. I think that , like you just go into

15:12

it so Build from there . Like

15:15

, yeah , as a , as a , as a , especially a

15:17

first time parent , you're like I have no idea what I'm

15:19

doing , but if someone who you've hired as

15:21

a professional is complimenting you and telling

15:23

you you're doing a great job , then you're going to start trusting

15:25

your instincts even more .

15:27

That's true .

15:28

But then I think , just like

15:30

we'll say parents

15:32

like , oh yeah , I'm waking the baby up every

15:34

three hours to eat because

15:37

I read in a book that that's what I should do . In

15:39

there , eight

15:41

weeks old , I

15:44

would say , oh , I

15:46

can tell that you really care about your baby and that

15:48

it's important to you that they get food . How

15:50

important is it to you that you sleep through

15:52

the night , like because

15:54

it's five hours . Yeah , like

15:57

a lot of my parents will say I'm is

15:59

this wrong ? And like

16:01

, okay , I'll

16:03

give an example . I walked into a house and dad was

16:06

on the yoga ball and he's like I've been

16:08

bouncing this baby on this yoga ball

16:10

for two hours and I said , do

16:12

you like to do that ? And he's

16:14

like no happy with

16:17

it . Yeah . So usually if they ask something

16:19

, I'll be like do you like how it's going ? And

16:22

if they say yes , then it's none of my business

16:24

, right , my business after that . If

16:26

they say no , then I'll give them suggestions of ways

16:28

to change it . So to me , an

16:32

eight to 12 week old that's still waking

16:34

up every three hours because you're waking

16:36

them up , to

16:38

me I want to know like is that something you like

16:40

to do ? Because this is something that

16:42

you feel like you have to do , because some people love that nighttime

16:44

cuddles with their baby .

16:46

It's quiet , nobody else is around . That's

16:48

special time for them .

16:49

Yeah . So if they tell me that and if they say

16:51

, yes , I love to do , I'm like great , it sounds like you're doing

16:53

a great job . And they're like no , I'm so exhausted , why

16:56

do I have to wake them up every three hours ? And I'll be like you

16:58

don't like in this age , they're

17:00

good yeah they're old enough now

17:02

that they can sleep longer , just

17:05

like I really think that

17:07

that's like the way that I

17:09

get into their good graces

17:11

and it doesn't make it feel like I'm asking . Making

17:14

them do certain things is just saying are you okay

17:16

with this ? And their answer

17:18

will drive my advice

17:20

. Perfect If they're okay with it , then

17:22

it really is none of my business .

17:24

And .

17:24

I support that .

17:26

And I find a lot of times saying my

17:29

, I feel bad on this . I sometimes I'll come

17:31

in and get a baby to sleep

17:33

better than it ever has or put

17:35

the diaper on so simple as putting the diaper

17:37

. Like some folks new parents sometimes they're

17:40

not snugging up those snap , you know like diapers

17:43

fall off .

17:43

How did you change that diaper in 20 seconds

17:45

? It takes only one wipe minutes to do

17:48

it . Yeah , yes and .

17:50

I think again you're building their confidence

17:52

is important , like well , I have done this thousands

17:54

of times . You know you guys will get here . You

17:56

know , give it to three more weeks , you'll be expert

17:58

as well . So I love that and

18:01

empowering them because we can't , we're not going to be there all

18:03

the time .

18:04

But that's a really good point because sometimes

18:06

, oftentimes

18:08

, baby sleeps much better for me

18:11

than they ever do for their parents

18:13

.

18:13

Likewise , what am I ?

18:14

doing wrong .

18:15

How come Right Get that all the time ?

18:17

Well , I'm there like and

18:19

actually I try to preemptively let them know

18:21

that , just so you know there's a good chance the

18:23

baby's going to sleep better for me than for you

18:25

, and the reason for that is because they

18:28

don't care about me . I call

18:30

it sexy indifference . I

18:32

go over to this house and I'm like I don't care

18:34

if you sleep through the night , like you can do whatever you want

18:36

. But parents are so desperate

18:38

. The baby I want it so bad . That desperation

18:41

. I know that sounds so dumb . I

18:43

call babies tiny velociraptors , like they're

18:45

just so smart . They know what

18:48

they're doing . There is this one dad who's he

18:50

like FaceTime . I gave him permission FaceTime

18:53

you during the night because when I was there he was sleeping

18:55

eight hours a night . When I wasn't

18:57

, he was waking up every two hours . And

18:59

so the dad FaceTime

19:01

and said this is what he's doing . Is

19:03

this the kind of ? I'm like , yeah , that's the kind of crying where he needs

19:05

to get up , like he's definitely sad . I

19:08

said when I am there

19:10

I actually sleep him with his head

19:12

on the other side of the crib .

19:13

Why don't you try something simple ?

19:16

And he dude started sleeping through

19:18

the night eight hours again , just like it . They

19:20

are so set on routine that even

19:22

the tiniest little tweak that baby's

19:24

like okay , now this feels normal again I

19:26

can .

19:26

So it's just kind of silly , I

19:28

think . Another thing with new parents especially

19:31

who may be nervous as a

19:33

postpartum doula we know babies make sounds

19:35

, right , they grunt , they

19:37

and they're going

19:39

to tweak . Yeah , they'll

19:42

cry out and they . They have erratic

19:44

breathing , where they'll be really

19:46

shallow and fast and then it slows down

19:48

so that I think worries a lot of parents . Yeah

19:51

, kicking and kicking wakes them up and

19:53

there's , and so I think a lot of times we understand

19:55

that's normal , where they might sleep better

19:58

for us in that or we

20:00

sleep better for them . I guess , like we

20:02

can rest through grunts where the

20:04

parents might be like , oh my gosh , like what's

20:06

, what's going on , are they okay ? So just

20:08

understanding normals , right ? Just

20:10

?

20:10

helping . Yeah , just normal infant behavior . We

20:12

know , oh , that baby's grunting . I don't

20:14

need to walk like they're grunting , which means they're

20:17

breathing , so I don't need to go check on them .

20:19

Right Grunting is great yeah .

20:20

Yeah , yeah Cool , it's so true .

20:23

And I actually I think we could

20:25

do a whole other episode about this specifically

20:27

, so I'm not going to get into it too much . But yeah

20:30

, I'm not even gonna get into

20:32

it , but I'd love to do another episode

20:34

.

20:34

I can't wait to hear what it is .

20:35

Another topic that gets a little

20:38

, just like you had mentioned . It gets a little political

20:40

sometimes . So we'll touch on that . But but

20:42

I think a lot of parents they like yeah , I have read this book

20:44

, I'm going to do this method , and

20:47

I think I want

20:49

to hear you chime in as well . Not

20:51

every method that we read about or

20:53

want to do might work for the baby

20:56

that we end up with , right ? Oh my gosh that's

20:58

so true .

20:59

I actually just was texting someone

21:01

about this this morning . When

21:04

parents text me or call me and say

21:06

what book should I read , I say read

21:08

no books read your baby your books

21:10

. Do not over research it , because

21:12

one book is going to tell you the opposite of the other

21:14

book . Trust your instincts and

21:17

trust your intuition . The baby

21:19

will tell you what the baby wants . And

21:21

I just think that that's so

21:23

important , because if you read a whole

21:26

bunch of books , you're going to get really confusing advice

21:28

and then also you're going to feel like a bad

21:30

parent if it doesn't work . Your baby doesn't work

21:32

to the book . Yeah , because not

21:34

only is your baby not

21:36

going to be like the babies in that book , but then your

21:38

second baby is going to be different than your first baby

21:41

. You're constantly just I

21:44

have been working on this like sleep queuing

21:46

method for 10 years and

21:48

I have learned everything I've learned from the

21:51

babies . You didn't read a book either

21:53

.

21:53

No .

21:53

I have never read a parenting book , ever

21:56

, which I don't know . If people think that makes

21:58

me feel unqualified , you

22:00

got . I have based on the trenches

22:02

experience , parents feedback , but mostly

22:04

babies feedback baby is me

22:06

what ? And

22:08

then , and then you go to a new home and

22:11

you tell those parents this is what the baby taught me

22:13

last night . Maybe this will work for you .

22:15

Right , yep , and you share . I think

22:17

it's there . Other people have found this to be successful

22:19

, or some people will choose to do this , and

22:21

so I think , offering that you know

22:24

I always do this or you should do that , but

22:26

here's what you could try . Other people

22:28

sound success here . I think that's very gentle way

22:30

to and a good way , right , let them discover

22:32

what works for them .

22:33

And , I will admit , even though every baby is different

22:35

, I do have like a baseline of like here's

22:38

what works .

22:39

Absolutely . There's patterns

22:41

, yeah .

22:42

Then sometimes you have to tweak it a little bit

22:44

, like that baby that needed to be a

22:46

certain place in the crib , like yeah , I

22:48

would have never thought of that before , right

22:50

.

22:51

You learned a new thing from a baby .

22:52

I mean anything you do you start with like your base

22:55

knowledge and then you have to tweak it and

22:57

adjust depending on the Expand .

22:58

Yeah , absolutely so

23:02

. A couple other things postpartum night work . I

23:05

know you have a thriving business doing

23:07

that . If

23:11

we could provide this

23:13

would be amazing , and I wish we could . This

23:15

service for all people . Right , this is an

23:17

expensive , it can be a very expensive service . Some

23:20

folks get a year long contract , some do 12 weeks , some

23:23

do three nights , like there's lots of different

23:25

ways to do this . That

23:28

all come with a price , right , but

23:30

let's take money out of it , angela

23:33

. And if you could , across

23:36

the board , provide some kind of postpartum

23:38

night support for people , what would be kind

23:40

of high level best

23:43

case scenario , like

23:47

, if we like give me a little rundown of a schedule if you could

23:49

do this , for if this was a paid service for all people

23:51

could afford it , what would be

23:53

the best ? What

23:56

? It's hard to say because there's so many different situations , but if you could provide for like

23:58

?

23:58

what would the parents to do ?

24:00

No , like if we could have a postpartum do come

24:02

what would be the best for everyone . Like

24:04

insurance , covered it or something Right right right If

24:07

it was available to all people , what , what would

24:09

be ? Not everyone's going to get a year like that's

24:11

not necessary . You know , and

24:13

I think in my experience too , like most

24:16

babies are pretty good at night . Very rarely

24:18

do I have a cally , a truly cally

24:20

, tough baby and

24:22

again , we're probably doing the right things to help

24:24

them sleep to the night . But if we could prescribe

24:27

like all right , if every family could have three

24:29

nights that first week being home , or

24:32

one night a week for a month , like

24:34

, tell me , and a lot of us just learning , right

24:36

, you learn from the postpartum do and then implement the

24:38

things on your own . But what would be a good cadence

24:40

for if we could provide this for all people ?

24:43

Well , first of all , I want to speak to the fact that there are

24:45

actually studies that show that postpartum night

24:47

work helps with postpartum depression

24:50

. Absolutely and avoiding it , and

24:52

so that is huge to me

24:54

. I'm going to base

24:56

your question on a lot of the questions I get from

24:58

new people who are interviewing me , like

25:01

what's , what do most of your people do

25:03

? That's what they say , but most of your people do and

25:06

I and that is

25:08

an impossible question because it's so different it

25:10

budgets a thing like I've had clients that

25:13

do one night a week for six months

25:15

and they're just like . They'll text me and be like

25:17

it's 18 hours till you're coming . I can't , that's their golden

25:19

night . And then some people

25:21

who don't have those financial restrictions , who

25:24

do seven nights a week for six months and

25:27

I would say , like , speaking to cadence

25:29

, I would say three

25:32

nights a week for

25:34

16 weeks , eight hours a night . So

25:37

that'd be golden service for folks

25:39

. Okay , because I think that would give us enough

25:42

time , because if we're only there one night a week

25:44

, that's hard for us to establish

25:46

habits for the baby , because you're

25:48

just there once and then the parents

25:50

are there the other six nights .

25:52

You're on a little bit of their habits .

25:54

Yeah .

25:55

Three nights a week . We can like help

25:57

the baby realize okay , if

25:59

I make a noise , someone's not

26:01

going to come running and I can I actually have the

26:03

power to soothe myself back to sleep . Or

26:05

I don't need to eat

26:07

every three hours , I can eat every five hours

26:10

. And the reason I say 16

26:12

weeks is because 16 weeks and

26:14

again this is just speaking to my business that's

26:16

the point where they're old enough that you can do some

26:18

sleep training if you want to .

26:20

And a lot of things happen develop money , like . Looking

26:22

from an IBCLC perspective , babies

26:25

gain ideally about an ounce a day

26:27

until they're 16 weeks . Oh

26:29

really . That weight gain shifts to

26:32

three to four ounces a week , so it almost

26:34

cuts in half . So there is some just

26:36

development , only things at 16

26:38

weeks . That all fit this .

26:42

For nutrition behavior , all of the above

26:45

.

26:45

Yeah .

26:46

Yeah , and

26:48

16 weeks , that's when the moral reflex

26:50

starts to go away , that's fading , and

26:53

so Startling

26:55

themselves away .

26:56

Yeah .

26:56

I mean it can last up to six months for some babies

26:59

, but it's . There are a lot of changes

27:01

at 16 weeks that either make

27:03

they start sleeping longer on their own

27:05

or they have abilities for you to train

27:07

them to sleep on their own in

27:10

a way that's not cruel .

27:11

Yep , absolutely Perfect , all

27:14

right . Another question along these lines , because

27:17

most people can't afford these services and

27:19

you've touched on a little bit . But if you were to kind of give

27:22

a recipe

27:24

of success for people who can't afford

27:26

postpartum doula support

27:28

or night help which is a lot of people

27:30

what can they work

27:33

on in those first few days

27:35

and weeks to get

27:37

to that point on their own a little more quickly ?

27:39

I actually do have a recipe , because sometimes

27:42

people like will interview me and they're

27:44

like oh , it's a little too much . Or people who I'm working

27:46

for twice a week . Or like tell me what you're doing On

27:50

the nights you're there so that I can replicate it . Yeah

27:53

, and again , this is like , like I said , every

27:55

baby is different . It's kind of a baseline

27:58

of things that are helpful , but

28:00

, and again , my focus

28:03

is all toward helping baby sleep

28:05

through the night because , I want mom and dad

28:07

and baby to sleep , and so this

28:09

is what I base that on

28:11

. Routine

28:16

just can't be emphasized enough the

28:20

same swaddle every night , the same white noise

28:22

machine , the lights off

28:24

, the same

28:26

pacifier .

28:29

And not everyone uses a password , right ?

28:31

No , no , yeah , not everyone uses a password

28:33

, so whatever soothing tool that

28:35

is the best chosen . Yeah , bedtime

28:38

is a hard thing to nail down . When that's

28:40

a newborn , you're like it was bedtime at six or

28:42

at midnight .

28:43

Right .

28:44

Whenever you choose bedtime to be

28:46

, I always recommend doing

28:48

three things before

28:51

that bedtime and the exact

28:53

same three things every night . Not

28:56

only read a story , but read the

28:58

same story every night . Not

29:00

only sing a song , but sing the same song

29:02

every night . Those

29:05

, if you do routine

29:07

things that are very exact

29:09

, the baby starts to recognize

29:12

oh , we're doing these things , and

29:14

so this means this is the time I'm gonna sleep

29:16

longer , because when

29:18

they're babies they're just sleeping all the time .

29:20

They even sleep .

29:20

that's all they do , yeah but if you

29:23

only read that story , only sing that

29:25

song , only do that bath , only

29:28

do that walk , like with

29:30

rigid routine , the

29:34

baby's gonna start to recognize it's not gonna happen

29:36

in two nights , Right , it might not even

29:38

happen in a week , but you'll start to

29:40

notice a difference and it will feel silly

29:43

at the beginning because the baby's

29:45

just like yeah , like I don't hear any of the

29:47

words you're saying .

29:49

I don't care about stories .

29:50

But , again high-nevalosiraptors . They're soaking

29:52

it in , they're figuring it out . And

29:56

another thing I recommend is , before

29:58

quote unquote bedtime is allowing

30:01

the baby to cluster feed as

30:03

much as they want whether it's the bottle or

30:05

the bath or the breast . It's

30:07

like the same kind of mental game

30:10

as carb loading before

30:12

a marathon . That

30:15

way , you know , when

30:18

you lay them down , pretend they'd been cluster

30:20

feeding for three hours , from seven to 10 , you

30:22

lay them down at 10 and they start crying at midnight

30:25

. You know they're not hungry . Like

30:27

you can know that for a surety . I

30:30

mean , like , unless there's like a medical thing , right

30:32

right , but we can put off the next feeding for a while

30:34

. Yes , you're like , okay , they're crying , so

30:37

, but they're definitely not hungry . So let's figure

30:39

out if they just need a self-soothe

30:41

, if I need to go like re-swaddle

30:43

them , cause they broke out of their swaddle , like there's

30:45

other ways to take care of it , or

30:48

maybe they just need the pass for my oldest son . He

30:50

needed the pacifier . Like when he

30:52

was old enough to grab it on his own , I'd throw like six

30:54

of them in the crib , just so that Find one , he could

30:56

find it . Luckily , my second

30:59

one was a thumbsucker , so that made it so much easier

31:01

.

31:01

I've always had it .

31:02

Yeah and

31:04

then sorry

31:07

. I'm just looking at my notes because I

31:10

just want to make sure to say all the things .

31:16

You talked about dark and white noise , which is right

31:19

, a routine .

31:20

Yes , yes , I just , and

31:23

also like a lot of postpartum

31:25

doulas . If you can't afford to

31:27

hire them to come to your house will coach you for

31:29

free . Right and teach you and give you I

31:32

will and , oops , I just said my mic . I

31:34

will do it and my and or

31:36

my ladies will . That

31:38

work in

31:40

my team and

31:45

it's something I'm happy to do like

31:48

because of figuring things out .

31:50

Helping people yeah .

31:51

And I appreciate that it's an expensive

31:53

service and that it's a luxury and

31:56

that it's not fair that everybody

31:59

can't afford it and it should be something

32:01

that everybody can use because

32:03

, again , postpartum depression alone is

32:06

huge . So maybe

32:08

just ask someone if they'll coach you . They might charge you

32:10

, but it would be less , and so that could

32:12

be a way to do it . And another

32:14

thing I don't again can only speak to my

32:16

experience is if they can't afford

32:19

to have you come , they will almost

32:21

always afford to have me come to

32:23

do sleep training at 16 weeks .

32:26

Like you can do .

32:27

We can do anything for four months . We

32:29

can hear this out . We can power through , Turn

32:31

that corner and yes . Yes , and again

32:33

, those are people who are okay with like crying

32:35

it out and that type of a thing . But

32:38

I just

32:40

think , like that's

32:43

the advice I would give make things

32:45

as routine as possible . And

32:47

if those things aren't working , then

32:49

ask a postpartum doula if they'll coach you and

32:51

what that would look like .

32:53

Cool . And sometimes that would be one

32:55

night right . You may pay for one night and

32:57

watch what happens kind of see

32:59

it Cool . So

33:02

I'm

33:06

jotting my own notes down here too , which is cool

33:08

because I'm coming up with the other episode ideas . Oh

33:10

, I love it .

33:12

It's gonna be the Angie and Angela

33:14

podcast .

33:16

Let's do it . I love it . You're a great guest and

33:21

you kind of touched on this how it

33:23

can help with postpartum depression right

33:25

To minimize postpartum depression and I think and

33:28

speak to this a little bit . Sleep is a part of that

33:30

but I also support , as a part of

33:32

that right and tell

33:34

me a little bit about the emotional support that

33:36

walks in the door when

33:39

a postpartum doula comes . That one of the first postpartum

33:42

doula jobs I did and I kind of just

33:44

tripped into it after a birth client and he did a lot

33:46

of help and it was daytime in the beginning . My

33:49

very first postpartum job was nighttime

33:51

. That was probably 15 years ago and funny

33:54

story I'll have to tell in another episode . But

33:56

I kind of tripped into some daytime

33:59

work with a client who had a

34:01

tough birth and was having a hard time

34:03

adjusting and the dad said to

34:05

me he's like and I went a few days , it wasn't

34:07

a long-term thing he said it's like the

34:09

sun comes up , like the sun just shines

34:12

bright when you come and we know you're coming

34:14

tomorrow at 10 am , we

34:16

can get through this time and it's

34:18

just so refreshing to have you walk in the door because

34:20

you're happy , you know what you're doing , which

34:23

was kind of it's so simple , right , I'm like

34:25

. But just having that , so

34:27

to speak a little bit to the emotional support

34:30

that comes , and really sometimes

34:32

we talk to these parents for five minutes

34:34

before they're off to bed . Sometimes you'll

34:36

sit and have a long conversation about

34:39

lots of different things . So speak to the emotional support .

34:42

Well , the first thing I think of is that mom I told you

34:44

about who had texted me and be like

34:46

18 hours and 37 minutes

34:49

.

34:49

Tell you right , I can do it .

34:51

Countdown . Yeah , exactly

34:53

, she was so excited . But what

34:55

that made me actually think of is like I'm

34:57

done having children of my own , but

35:00

I'm considered a professional or

35:02

a quote unquote expert in the area . Even

35:05

if I did have a child of my own at this

35:07

point I would still hire a postpartum

35:09

doula just for that emotional support

35:12

Like that , looking forward

35:14

and knowing that you have someone that's going to

35:16

be there for you , that will listen to you either

35:18

listen to you and let you cry on their shoulder

35:21

, or we'll take the baby and

35:23

you can disappear for eight hours

35:25

and just get the sleep that you want

35:27

, just knowing . I

35:29

feel like when you have , when

35:32

you're postpartum , that

35:34

a huge part of that

35:36

feeling and I've taken no classes

35:38

, this is based on my own experience it's

35:40

just that you feel like you are

35:42

the only one doing this .

35:45

You don't leave the house . I sleep .

35:47

You don't want to get your baby sick . You're recovering

35:49

, you're feeling trapped , you

35:52

are sleep deprived . You

35:54

might be medicated because you have

35:57

pain . Like it's so hard to think

35:59

clearly and to have someone to come

36:01

in and tell you that you're doing a good job

36:04

and to take the baby and let

36:06

you just like go and

36:09

sleep you for a minute . Yeah

36:11

, and it's so true , because sometimes you walk in and

36:13

they're like here's the baby , see ya , peace out

36:15

. And sometimes I'm like

36:17

okay , you have got to go to bed . Yeah

36:19

, we gotta stop talking . Yeah , because

36:21

like this is missing the whole point of me being

36:23

here , like you have to go and get

36:25

some sleep , so , but I think it's important

36:28

to , as a postpartum

36:30

doula , to recognize what

36:32

they need like and give them that . Like you can

36:34

tell where like I am not on the mood to chat

36:36

tonight and that's just fine . Or

36:39

like if they do want to chat a lot

36:42

, you send them to bed and maybe call

36:44

them the next day .

36:45

Like .

36:45

I wanted to wrap up or finish up that what we were

36:47

talking about , but

36:50

I just think . I think that dad

36:52

described it perfectly like a ray of sunshine just

36:54

walking in , like it makes everything

36:56

better . You know that Help

36:58

is on the way . Exactly It's-

37:01

. I

37:03

I've never had a postpartum

37:05

doula , so I can only talk

37:09

about how people have reacted when I walked in

37:11

the door and , yeah , again

37:13

, they're just , they're just so grateful , they're

37:15

just grateful .

37:16

Yeah , that's cool . I think likewise , like if

37:18

I and I did my last baby , we had a postpartum

37:20

doula come for a couple days and , yeah

37:22

, and I made a world of difference . So

37:25

so it can be a benefit , whether it's long

37:27

term , short term once and you've

37:29

spoken to the benefits of longer

37:31

but also for those who can't afford this service

37:33

and give you , given , some really good tips

37:35

. I think that this scares people right

37:37

, like we hear that from our birth clients all the time . Like

37:40

here's what I'm scared of is being tired

37:42

, the lack of sleep , and

37:44

really it's brief , like it

37:46

fills forever . Long , but 16 weeks

37:48

generally . You know , some babies it's eight

37:50

weeks , others it's a little bit longer , but

37:53

this is a in the big picture of

37:55

parenthood . This is a brief but

37:57

challenging time and part of our goal

37:59

, I think , as postpartum doulas , is to lighten

38:01

their load a little bit .

38:03

Yeah , and I guess I would say like never

38:06

turn down help . You don't have

38:08

to be on the island . No one's going to

38:10

think you're weak or a bad mom

38:12

if they say , can I bring

38:14

you dinner ? And you say

38:16

, yes , like they're going to be

38:18

like oh , I wasn't really wanting to bring you dinner . Or

38:20

like can I just come hold the baby while you shower

38:22

? Yes , never

38:25

say no . Never say no . If

38:27

they're offering it , take a bump on it because , like

38:29

culturally , that's how we used to be . Right

38:32

, and they're away from that and

38:34

now it's like in some circles

38:36

you have a baby , you get meals

38:38

three nights a week for two to three weeks and then

38:40

everyone forgets about you . It disappears

38:42

, yeah , and I just

38:44

, I just say , if people

38:46

offer , always say yes , I

38:49

love that .

38:50

And for a while . Right , Like our society

38:52

, we get back to quote , unquote normal life way

38:54

too quickly and we don't allow for that physical

38:57

, emotional , mental recovery after babies

38:59

are born , like we should .

39:00

Yes , when I had my first , first

39:02

baby , I had a neighbor who's like you

39:05

are not to change out of your pajamas for three

39:07

weeks .

39:08

I love it , and so I obeyed

39:10

that .

39:10

And then with my second I , he

39:13

had to be tested for bilirubin

39:15

like at a three day appointment

39:17

after he was discharged from the hospital and

39:19

I walked out to my car and she came

39:21

out . She's like

39:24

screaming at me I'm on your pajamas

39:26

, getting mad at me for not being in my pajamas

39:29

. But like I just take any

39:31

support you can get . Don't feel like you have to pretend

39:33

to be strong . And even if you feel

39:35

strong , take the support Right . Still

39:37

, take it easy .

39:38

Yeah , yeah I see a lot of people do

39:40

that Like I'm not pregnant . I feel great . I'm like , yeah

39:43

, but take it , take care of

39:45

yourself and let others take care of you as well . So

39:47

cool , cool , cool

39:49

, angela . Thank you . Anything else to add

39:51

as we wrap up ?

39:53

No , I think . I think we've covered a lot

39:55

.

39:56

Thanks , thanks , thanks , thanks . So excited for the

39:58

amazing work that

40:01

we get to do for folks , which is , yeah , it's

40:03

important work . So and hopefully

40:05

our listeners have , if you know , if they're

40:07

interested in becoming a postpartum doula or using

40:09

a postpartum doula , or just want some tips

40:11

from a pro hopefully we've been able to provide all of

40:13

those things today on

40:15

our on our visit . So , angela , thanks

40:18

again for being here . We will have you back again . We

40:20

have , I think , so many more things to talk about , but

40:23

we appreciate your time . Thank you , cool

40:26

. Well , thanks for joining us today . This is Angie

40:28

Roger , with the ordinary doula podcast

40:30

sponsored by birth learning . We

40:32

hope you have a wonderful day and hope you can

40:34

do something today that inspires

40:36

you whether you see something , hear something , have

40:39

an interaction with somebody else that just inspires you and helps

40:41

you to feel awesome and amazing because you

40:43

are . We hope to see you next time and

40:46

have a great one .

40:57

Thank you for listening to the ordinary doula

40:59

podcast with Angie Roger , hosted

41:02

by birth learning . Episode credits

41:04

will be in the show notes Tune

41:06

in next time as we continue to explore

41:08

the many aspects of giving birth

41:10

.