0:00

This is an ABC Podcast. I

0:03

look forward to leading

0:06

a government that makes Australians

0:08

proud up.

0:11

This election didn't just change

0:13

a government. It was a

0:15

green flag. Safe

0:18

liberal seats, two German incumbents,

0:21

independents.

0:23

We may to go back to where they

0:25

use our principles, look closely

0:27

at what has happened. Their policies

0:30

will be squarely aimed at the forgotten

0:32

stones in the suburb across regional Australia.

0:37

Hello. Hello. Welcome back to the Party

0:39

room. I'm Patricia Carvello. The host

0:41

of our own breakfast joining you from Marjorie

0:43

Country in Melbourne for

0:45

our first podcast to twenty twenty

0:47

three, and I'm so excited to be back with you to

0:49

discuss big political issues, Fran, I have been

0:51

wanting to pick your political brain all

0:53

summer. I know. Right? So much to talk

0:55

about it. Almost didn't stop, which is

0:57

kind of unusual. And certainly, in

1:00

the last couple of weeks, the political tempo

1:02

has really picked up so much sort of policy

1:04

being talked about for heaven's sake. That's a change

1:06

and politics. I've been

1:08

chomping at the bit to get to your PK. And I'm

1:10

joining you this morning from the country

1:13

of Ghana people. I'm in Adelaide, and

1:15

it is fantastic to be back. One

1:17

of the defining issues of this year

1:19

for Australia, I think Pika and for the

1:21

Albanese government, is the planned referendum

1:24

on the voice department. And as we

1:26

hurdle towards that later in the year,

1:29

who better to have joined us for our first partnering

1:31

back in twenty twenty three than Stan Grant.

1:33

So It's already generating fierce political

1:35

debate, and and we'll talk about that with Stan.

1:37

But of course, the economy is the

1:39

other big story. It's always the other

1:42

big story, and cost of living

1:44

pressures will command the Lebanese

1:46

attention big time. The treasurer

1:49

Jim Chalmers spent a good chunk chunk of his

1:51

summer writing AA6 thousand word essay

1:53

for the monthly, laying out his

1:55

thesis on capitalism after the crisis.

1:57

That's what he's corporate. And it's

1:59

an essay outlining the principles

2:01

and values that he believes should

2:03

shape the Australian economy, not just

2:05

our society, but our economy. He

2:08

he calls his values based capitalism. And

2:10

at the heart of it is the notion that the public

2:12

sector and the private sector should collaborate

2:15

with community, with society on

2:17

national economic and social goals

2:19

as Jim Chalmers himself puts

2:21

it? Well, my essay is

2:23

all about how we strengthen our

2:25

economy and strengthen our institutions in

2:28

a way that strengthens our society and strengthens

2:30

our democracy. And it differs

2:32

from the approach taken over the last decade

2:34

or so because I think for

2:36

the best part of a decade, we've been pretending

2:38

as a country that we have to choose between

2:40

our economic objectives and our social

2:43

and in the process, we haven't done a great job

2:45

of satisfying either set of objectives.

2:48

And so what this tries to do is

2:50

to say that we would be much better off

2:53

if we had the public sector and the private

2:55

sector working together in the service

2:57

of our national economic

2:58

goals, that's the treasurer Jim

3:00

Chalmers speaking on seven thirty PK, talking about

3:02

strengthening a society and strengthening our democracy,

3:05

which sounds, you know, fantastic and

3:07

yet there are

3:08

critics. Oh, yeah. A lot of critics.

3:10

Look, hats off to the treasurer for actually

3:13

having a a serious think about Australia's

3:15

future and starting at De Beige. I

3:18

heard someone the other day just

3:20

count how many opinion pieces

3:22

in response to the essay had been

3:24

written than it was in the tens. A

3:26

lot like a lot. So

3:28

he's been successful in starting conversation

3:31

about the kind of economic strategy

3:33

we should be taking on social

3:36

issues in Australia. So

3:38

good on him there. Many have

3:40

seen the essay also as a future

3:42

leadership pitch now. Anyone

3:44

knows that you don't become a treasurer or a front

3:47

venture without having big ambitions.

3:49

So but I don't think that's entirely

3:51

what he was doing myself. I think he

3:54

is trying to carve

3:56

out a sort of big big ideas

3:59

piece about the way he thinks

4:01

that we need to structure

4:03

the next period of time, you know,

4:05

really into the future what kind of Australia

4:08

we wanna have in the economic settings for that.

4:11

Some in on his side have also interpreted

4:14

it as a sort of, you know,

4:16

blank check actually. Some some front

4:18

benches like, oh, great. So what can we spend money

4:20

on? It's not quite what he was saying either.

4:22

I think he's trying to talk about the

4:25

future and that, you know, some

4:27

some of these so spendings are also

4:29

an investment. And this co investment

4:32

idea is not a new one, but the

4:34

idea that the government wants to be more involved

4:37

in actually making things, building

4:39

things, actually investing

4:42

in big ideas is

4:44

kind of the

4:44

gist. Right? Well, I I also think

4:46

it's what people want. People want governments

4:49

investing in big ideas. It's planned

4:51

for most people, I think, to see that governments

4:53

over the last decade and more have really

4:56

not done much, not been doing much

4:58

except sort of manage things.

5:00

And the whole notion of just letting markets

5:02

rip certainly isn't working for everyone. It's planned

5:04

to see, you know, businesses have been in profit, wages

5:06

have been going backwards over the past decade. Businesses

5:09

in profit, but some of the businesses actually

5:11

causing harm to our environment or

5:14

to people themselves. So this notion

5:16

of sort of capital, investors and business and

5:18

government working together to improve

5:20

and strengthen the economy in

5:22

our lives is not a it's not a new one.

5:24

Investors are demanding more

5:26

responsible behavior in our custom businesses. Businesses

5:29

know that. So they're actually out in front of the

5:31

government, many of them on this, I think. So

5:33

I'm just not quite sure why this

5:35

idea of government and business working together

5:37

has created so much antagonism

5:40

really. Some of them read into it that

5:42

it was lots of government spending. Yeah.

5:45

But, you know, we've got

5:47

social outcomes that we need to attain. We

5:49

know that in aged care, in mental health,

5:52

in Medicare, in housing.

5:54

It's obvious in everyone's day to day lives.

5:57

That we haven't been able to afford to fix it

5:59

via taxpayers' dollars alone. I don't

6:01

think that's a contentious argument. And

6:04

if we look at, for instance, the success

6:06

of the Clean Energy Finance Corporation, which

6:08

was set up under the Golar government more

6:10

than a decade ago. Small

6:13

government investment loans to encourage Clean

6:15

Energy businesses has produced dividend.

6:17

It's produced a lot of investment in that clean

6:19

energy sector, had good returns. So

6:23

we don't have enough affordable housing

6:25

in this country. This government has

6:27

a body to subsidize returns

6:29

of super funds and others, to encourage

6:31

them to build more of that kind of housing I

6:33

think that kind of idea makes sense

6:35

to people, and it makes sense economically,

6:38

and it makes sense socially. I

6:40

don't think it's the same as that old

6:42

fashioned notion of this is government picking

6:44

winners. This is government middling in market. So I

6:46

just don't really think it is. Now the treasurer

6:49

also forecast another tough year ahead

6:52

as high inflation and high interest rates take

6:54

their toll during period of economic uncertainty.

6:57

Now just this week, we saw a dramatic plunge

6:59

in retail sales data for the December

7:02

quarter. And, Fran, we know that

7:04

this is actually going to be the year where those

7:06

fixed mortgage repayments end.

7:09

You know, that people have been able to fix their mortgages,

7:11

that that expires for a whole lot of people,

7:14

and people are really, really worried

7:16

about what will happen at that point.

7:18

This is not gonna be an easy year. This is actually

7:21

going to be an incredibly difficult year

7:23

for the Alban easy government to

7:24

manage. Right? Well, it's gonna be an incredibly

7:26

difficult year because we're talking about taxpayers'

7:29

dollars not being able to do everything and

7:31

and look at the help people gonna need. Look

7:33

at the past twenty four hours, PK. We've got

7:35

the productivity report showing that people

7:37

aren't getting the medical help they need because they

7:39

can't afford it. We've had electricity

7:42

companies again this week telling us power bills

7:44

are gonna shoot up, I think, upwards of twenty

7:46

five percent. We've got, you know, the

7:48

CoreLogic data that shows how house prices

7:50

have gone up. I'm I'm in Adelaide at the moment.

7:52

House prices in Adelaide went up forty four

7:54

percent last year. And as you

7:56

pointed out, interest rates are going up and

7:59

something like twenty percent of mortgage holders

8:01

are going off their fixed interest rates this

8:03

year. So that's going be an awful

8:06

lot of pain for Australians.

8:09

That this government will be called on to try and mitigate

8:11

in some way, and they've got to try and work

8:13

out how to do that without adding to inflation.

8:16

So this is a very very tricky

8:18

landscape. You know, Peter Dutton

8:20

is sitting by, I'm sure, just watching

8:22

and and waiting to pounce. And

8:24

there's not a lot of levers. The government

8:27

can pull to address

8:28

it. So that's where the scrutiny is gonna be, I think.

8:31

Now we're recording this on Thursday

8:33

morning on Friday. Well, the national cabinet

8:35

will meet prime minister with all the premiers and

8:37

the chief ministers. And we

8:39

know on the agenda is going

8:41

to be what is increasingly becoming

8:44

a crisis in Medicare,

8:46

a crisis in mental health as well.

8:49

Couple of different elements here that

8:51

on the mental health crisis there's

8:53

been a roundtable the health minister

8:55

has held to try and deal with some of

8:57

the issues emerging there and particularly

9:00

in trying to, you know, strengthening the voices

9:02

of people with lived experiences of mental

9:05

health to try and make some changes.

9:07

And then on the Medicare reform front,

9:09

well, this is huge. I mean, Medicare is

9:11

in dire trouble and it really is

9:13

and it's a well loved schemes. And it's a labor

9:15

schemes, labor constructed scheme, but it's

9:17

very bipartisan in terms of people's broad

9:20

support for us in the parliament. It's

9:22

facing its largest overhaul

9:24

in forty years. This as bulk

9:27

billing rates, that's, of course, where you say a

9:29

doctor and and the government essentially covers

9:31

the cost of that are very low,

9:33

so people are paying out of pocket expenses

9:36

which are pretty high or not being able to find

9:38

a ball billing doctor. This strengthening Medicare

9:40

report has been commissioned by the government.

9:43

It's set to be shared with the premiers

9:45

is my understanding. But there's

9:47

big push from the premier Dominic Parrotay

9:49

and also the Victorian premier

9:52

Dan Andrews. They've come together.

9:54

They're a bit of a united front often actually.

9:56

They work together even though they're

9:58

from different political sides. They've come together

10:00

and said, we really need some significant funding

10:03

and forms. Fran, how

10:05

serious is this one? mean,

10:08

how big is this going to be in terms

10:10

of the federal budget we're seeing in

10:11

May? This has to be the centerpiece doesn't it?

10:14

Of the Albonese government? Well, I think

10:16

it's centerpiece in terms of that social

10:18

reform, governments helping respond to people

10:20

that we were talking about in a of living sense that

10:22

might not necessarily put a whole load of dollars in

10:24

people's pocket, but will actually reform

10:27

a system. The minister has said this system

10:29

needs reform. It's not just about putting extra

10:31

money into the rebate so that GPs

10:33

get a pay rise, which they haven't had for five

10:35

years, and they need And

10:37

that's why one of the reasons, not the only reason,

10:39

but one of the reasons why we have so few bulk billing

10:41

doctors, they're rare as hens teeth. I don't know

10:43

about you, but I haven't seen one for long

10:45

time and -- Yeah. -- that Medicare co

10:47

payment now is getting very, very

10:49

high for lot of people. And that's

10:52

a cost of living pressure. So the government

10:54

needs to figure out what to do. It's got to put

10:56

probably more money into the health agreement with

10:58

the states because the lack of billings is

11:00

forcing more people into hospital emergency

11:03

departments, so the states are dealing with that.

11:05

But there's got to be this reform of Medicare and

11:07

there's lots of things being talked about We

11:09

haven't seen that report yet, that's strengthening Medicare

11:12

report, but it looks as though we might start

11:14

to see some moves towards, you

11:16

know, Medicare also funding access

11:18

to patients seeing nurses and physiotherapists

11:21

and counselors. So we get that, I think, the minister

11:23

talks about wraparound care, which

11:25

is really what modern medical

11:28

and general practice care

11:31

demands these days. Look, there

11:33

is so much on their list of things to do,

11:35

so to speak, next week is the first

11:37

sitting week of the official year,

11:40

and there was quite a lot on the agenda. But

11:42

of course, as we mentioned at the beginning

11:44

of the podcast, The big one is this

11:46

voice to parliament. The prime minister has really

11:48

staked his prime leadership on this

11:51

issue. He's really lent into it, signed up

11:53

to the Illyrest statement from the heart and is investing,

11:55

I think, a lot politically in this. Should we bring

11:57

our guest in to talk about

11:59

it, friend? Let's do it.

12:04

Stan Grant is the host of q

12:06

and a, a proud wargering man,

12:08

and a in the powder

12:10

room. Stan, it's so wonderful to have you in our first

12:12

episode of the year. Yes.

12:13

It's an honor to be in your first episode of

12:15

the year. Thank you for having me.

12:17

Stan, you're about catch a flight. So, you

12:19

know, thanks for squeezing us in

12:20

before that's abroad. Look, Stan, we don't yet

12:22

know the date of the referendum on the voicemail parliament,

12:25

but we do know it will be later

12:27

this year. Debate is up and running already,

12:29

furiously, really, the no campaign officially

12:32

launching this week fronted by current and

12:34

former conservative politician a former Labour

12:36

National Party president Warren Lundin. Does

12:38

this all spell troubled, do you think, for the success

12:41

of the referendum that there's no campaign coming

12:43

out so

12:43

strongly, so quickly? I

12:46

wouldn't say that it spells trouble, but I think

12:48

if anyone thought that this was not

12:50

going to be contested, I don't know what

12:52

universe they were living in. You know, we had forty

12:54

four referenda and only

12:56

eight have been successful. And we've cast our

12:59

minds back to the Republic referendum.

13:01

We saw how divided that was

13:04

both within the Republican movement

13:06

and also from monarchists. And

13:08

once the rubber hits the road, these

13:10

things become very tense, very heated,

13:12

very contested, So it was always going

13:15

to be like this. I think one

13:17

of the really interesting things and

13:19

we saw this played out on Q and A

13:21

over the past week as well is

13:23

that the yes campaign,

13:25

if I could put it that way, I don't

13:27

have to fight on multiple fronts. You have

13:30

those who are opposed to the voice, particularly

13:32

on the political right. But then you also

13:34

have within aboriginal communities

13:37

and those on the left as well,

13:39

criticism or opposition to the voice because

13:41

they think it doesn't go far enough. So

13:43

they're going to have to fight on multiple

13:45

fronts, and that's going to be that's gonna

13:47

be interesting to watch as the year unfolds. Now,

13:50

Stan Warren Lundin, I spoke to

13:52

him on our own breakfast about what he was

13:54

trying to do here. And he talked

13:56

about this alternative idea they

13:58

have. They wanna put symbolism in the constitution

14:01

instead. But it wouldn't just acknowledge aboriginal

14:03

and True Australia Islanders. In the preamble

14:05

to the constitution would also acknowledge the contribution

14:08

to Australia from migrants

14:10

from the multicultural community. Migrant

14:12

groups have said, we don't want this. They've described

14:14

it as peeking ethnic communities against

14:16

our First Nations people. Really strong statement

14:19

actually from their peer group Fekah and they support

14:21

the YES campaign. But what did you make

14:23

of that

14:24

move? Why are they doing this?

14:26

Well, it it ducks the issue, doesn't it? I mean,

14:28

what we are talking about here. Is

14:30

a fundamental question of how

14:33

do first nations people speak

14:35

into the Australian party? From

14:38

a position of historical

14:40

and political powerlessness left

14:43

out of the framing of the original

14:45

constitution, not counted

14:47

in the census among the Australian population

14:50

with the capacity for parliament

14:52

to make discriminatory laws against First

14:54

Nations people. The campaign of

14:57

First Nations people throughout Australian

14:59

history is to how do we express

15:01

ourselves as sovereign peoples

15:04

in a colonized land and

15:06

speak with a voice to power.

15:09

So to talk about things like symbolism,

15:11

which was outright rejected in

15:14

all of the consultations amongst

15:17

First Nations people about what constitutes

15:19

institutional recognition would look like. Symbolism

15:21

was never going to be enough.

15:23

Nice words isn't are not justice.

15:27

That that the idea

15:30

that you could just insert symbolism isn't

15:32

going to cut it. The idea that

15:34

migrants should be recognized in

15:37

the constitution symbolically. Also,

15:42

it appears to be sort of nonsensical when

15:44

you think that everyone who is not a First Nations

15:46

person is a migrant. They're already

15:48

recognized because they have an Australian

15:51

constitution that speaks to

15:53

them. So look, it ducks the issue.

15:55

The issue is recognition, structural

15:59

change, and a voice for First

16:01

Nations people. As a distinct polity

16:05

in Australia. And that's the fundamental question

16:07

to grapple with. So that's the issue.

16:09

It muddies the waters, and it also is

16:11

an attempt to devise presumably to

16:13

in the words of the multicultural groups

16:15

pet ethnic communities against the First Nations

16:17

people. The liberal party is gonna

16:19

be clearly important. No matter how much

16:21

the prime minister says this is for the people decide,

16:24

the position of our major political parties

16:26

will be important. The Liberals yet declare

16:28

their position calling for more detail

16:30

on the voice proposal. The opposition leader Peter

16:32

Dutton will meet with the voice rep Brendan

16:34

Working Group today. We're recording this on

16:37

Thursday. Do you think he is genuine in

16:39

trying to divine which way to lead the

16:41

liberal party. Do you think this working group

16:43

is likely to persuade him to

16:45

back the yes campaign?

16:47

As political leader, he has to sit down and

16:49

listen to that work and

16:51

to do anything else would be disingenuous.

16:54

He's already facing the reality of this coalition

16:56

partner, the nationals, who are out in front of this,

16:59

and they've said no to us. And

17:01

I was wondering too, Fran. I mean,

17:03

isn't the liberal party position still

17:06

the liberal party position that they took under

17:08

Turnbull and Morrison, which was to

17:10

reject the idea that

17:13

we haven't seen any change

17:16

to that. Now while they haven't come out and said

17:18

that they oppose this referendum,

17:21

the position of the Turnbull government, the

17:23

Morrison government, was not to accept

17:25

the idea of a voice on

17:27

liberal ideological grounds

17:29

that that it gives to one group

17:32

of Australians political

17:34

representation and rights that

17:36

are not enjoyed by other Australians

17:39

as sort of classically liberal framing

17:41

of this dilemma. So

17:43

that's the reality. But then there's a political

17:45

reality, of course, that Peter Dutton

17:48

has to be able to negotiate here, and that

17:50

is that fits into how he repositions

17:53

his liberal party after

17:55

Turnbull, after Morrison, and

17:57

how he seeks to find a pathway

18:00

back to government and whether the

18:02

question of the voice becomes something

18:04

that he's able to to build

18:06

his brand around whether he's

18:08

prepared to let that go. So he

18:10

has to make a political calculation.

18:13

And I suspect right now, yes, he's listening

18:15

to First Nation's voices, but I

18:17

suspect as well he's looking to see how

18:19

this plays out and where public

18:22

moves to before we get any indication

18:24

of whether there'll be a formal opposition

18:27

to it. How

18:27

about a conscience vote though? Because it looked

18:30

likely that the Liberals would move in

18:32

that direction, allowing all MPs

18:34

putting those who are more likely advocate for

18:37

yes to to do it themselves as

18:38

well. It seems to me then

18:40

perhaps maybe not gonna land there.

18:42

What's your take? Extent. But I I don't

18:44

understand what a a conscious vote a

18:46

conscious vote for what. I mean, the Australian

18:49

people will vote on the proposition

18:51

as it's put. Should there be a First Nations

18:54

voice in the constitution? Yes or

18:56

no. That vote will be taken. And

18:58

then there'll be legislation to

19:00

frame the composition of that

19:03

vote. Well, the legislation will be

19:05

passed on the voices in the parliament that the Labour

19:07

Party already has. So and if the

19:09

Labour Party members want to

19:11

cross the floor if you like and vote for that,

19:13

then that's already their prerogative as

19:15

liberal party members. They were able to do that

19:17

in a way that labor party MPs

19:20

are not. So they already have the capacity to

19:22

exercise their conscience. But the first thing

19:25

we have to do is to hear from the Australian people

19:27

in referendum as to whether they support

19:29

the proposition of a voice before we get to

19:31

legislation.

19:32

Stan, I know that senior people within

19:34

the Labour government though are worried about

19:37

the direct of this are worried about the impact

19:39

of this issue and a and a hard fork campaign

19:41

and a loss on the government

19:43

this year. It seems as though the prime

19:45

minister's getting nervous about lack of bipartisanship

19:48

for the referendum, MatHony Albenizy, has

19:50

now just written to Peter Dutton asking

19:52

him to lay out the changes he wants to the

19:54

proposal in what seems to failure

19:57

to bid to salvage support for the voice.

19:59

Does this reveal how the Albanese

20:01

government is nervous about getting

20:03

referendum through without opposition support? And do you think

20:05

it'll force the liberals to put this stance?

20:08

Clearly, one way or the other very soon.

20:10

Well,

20:10

Peter Dutton's in a position where he can sit back

20:13

and and wait, I suppose, and see which

20:15

way the wind

20:17

blows with this because Anthony

20:19

Albanesia has already attached himself

20:21

to it. He's attached his prime ministership

20:24

to it. And he has political ownership of

20:26

it. We know that referendums that do not have

20:28

bipartisanship don't succeed in

20:30

Australia. So if there's already that political

20:33

hurdle. We don't have opposition yet

20:36

from Peter Dutton's side. And as Matt said,

20:38

we're going to oppose this and reject it.

20:40

Albeit as I said, the nationals have already done

20:42

that. But if there is not by partisanship, we

20:44

know that that's a lot of lead to carry

20:47

in the sandal bags to try to get a referendum

20:49

up. The other thing for Anthony needed to consider,

20:51

of course, as well. And he's been quite interesting

20:53

in the way that he's navigated this.

20:56

He's, on the one hand, talked up the importance

20:58

of a voice. But on the other hand, reassured

21:01

people that it is just a voice. It's not a

21:03

veto. It doesn't give aboriginal

21:05

people privacy over

21:08

the sovereignty of the parliament. So he's been

21:10

very careful to try to assuage any

21:12

of those concerns. But here's something

21:15

I suppose it's in the back of his mind as well,

21:17

is how this feeds into the

21:19

political landscape. What if the economy

21:22

can continues to take a downturn? What

21:24

if in the worst possible scenario you're just leading

21:26

to recession, what if we see a spike in

21:28

unemployment, when the interest rates continue

21:31

to go up that hits the household. The

21:33

household when you see inflation continuing.

21:35

If this plays into the political cycle, that

21:37

becomes something else that they can attack

21:39

him on. Now remember, of course, David

21:42

Cameron in the UK, when the Brexit

21:44

vote became a vote on David Cameron,

21:47

and when the Brexit referendum did not

21:49

go the way that he'd anticipated then he

21:51

ended up losing his

21:52

leadership. And I suppose that that's the political

21:55

landscape to have to navigate as well.

21:57

What an interesting point. Look, Stan,

22:00

You mentioned at the top of our conversation that

22:03

they're gonna have to fight on several

22:05

fronts. So there's divisions in the left. So let's

22:07

go to the Greens are devoted on this too. Their

22:09

first nations spokesperson Lydia Thomp,

22:12

wants a treaty first. And even more

22:14

than just wanting a treaty first, she's very

22:16

critical of the voice full stop.

22:18

As far as I understand it, she doesn't say

22:21

many positive things about the concept of

22:23

a voice that it would be a powerless advisory

22:26

body who wants to just be advisors.

22:28

She told a rally. She came on q

22:30

and a with you, and this is what she had to say.

22:33

Nothing's gonna change by an advisory body.

22:37

We've told the government that

22:39

we don't wanna seed sovereignty. We've

22:41

told the government to implement the royal

22:43

commission into aboriginal deaths in custody They're

22:46

bringing them home report, which

22:48

thirty and twenty year old reports.

22:51

She also stated how she would like as

22:53

we mentioned sovereignty to be addressed. In

22:55

the boys, his years. Because I'd really

22:58

like to see that as part of the legislation or

23:01

even putting that our constitution that

23:04

average law enforcement, all into people, first people

23:06

of this country, are the sovereign people of the

23:08

labs. That would be amazing if

23:11

labor could do that. We're recording

23:13

this Thursday. There's a two day green sort

23:15

of talk fest where they're trying to nut some of these

23:17

things out. Lydia's orb isn't there, but

23:19

she's not there because she's on aori business,

23:22

but either way, she's kind of going

23:24

it alone on

23:24

this. How is this going to be resolved, Stan?

23:26

And how meaningful is this? Yeah. Look, her

23:29

position has always been the protection

23:31

of First Nation's sovereignty and enshrining

23:34

that sovereignty. And as she said,

23:36

if the voice legislation was

23:38

to enshrine that sovereignty, was

23:40

to find a form of words that enshrine

23:43

First Nation's sovereignty, then that would be

23:45

far more acceptable to

23:47

her. Now we know, of course, we're not going to

23:49

get that legislation until after the

23:52

referendum itself. When they come to the actual

23:54

composition, of the voice. But

23:56

this this question of sovereignty has

23:58

been critical and she'd been very

24:00

consistent in that. It was

24:02

interesting as well when I put to her though,

24:05

on on the program, when I said,

24:07

on the day of the vote when you were

24:09

standing there and you have your pencil in your

24:11

hand, and you have to take a yes or

24:13

a no, which way are you going to go? And she

24:15

wouldn't commit to that. And then she

24:17

said, well, I want to see exactly what

24:20

the commitments are from the government first.

24:22

So There is that little bit of wiggle room

24:24

as to what you'll actually do on the day of the

24:26

vote, but her position has been very strong. If

24:28

it does not represent First Nation's

24:31

sovereign to, then it's not something she's actively going

24:33

to support. Where that leaves

24:35

her, if the greens come out of

24:37

course and say that they are going to as

24:39

a party, support the voice to

24:41

parliament or the voice in the constitution. Then

24:44

how do they navigate that given her portfolio

24:46

and her responsibilities within the party? But that's

24:48

something the Greens will have to work out. I think stage,

24:51

Adam Band has said that that is something for Lydia

24:54

as well to come to her own

24:56

decision on. So – but look,

24:59

We saw in the

25:01

invasion day, Australia day survival day

25:03

rallies where people were coming out in

25:05

quite big number. Marching in

25:07

the street saying vote no. The voice is

25:09

not enough who wants to have an advisory body.

25:12

I I don't know if that constitutes a

25:14

majority within First Nations population,

25:16

but it's significant. And for those

25:19

proponents of the voice, it is going to be

25:21

something to have to counter. And we

25:23

know as more detail goes comes

25:25

out or as more time goes on, there's often

25:27

momentum around those those

25:29

opposing voices. And we saw we've seen that in

25:31

other

25:32

referendum, particularly with the Republican referendum.

25:34

Well, it's just which

25:35

split on the inside. Didn't it split on the Republican

25:37

side. Well, that's right. And as you said, a lot by saying,

25:39

basically, division disunity is death for

25:41

a referendum in this country, which history tells

25:44

us that So what does

25:46

the government and those back in the yes campaign?

25:48

What do they need to do to counter this? Because

25:50

we haven't even seen the formal yes campaign

25:53

kicked off

25:53

yet, rolled out yet. Have Yeah. This is a

25:55

really intriguing referendum because

25:58

it does seek to reset the

26:00

the political orthodoxy in some way. The

26:02

Olaru statement was never presented as

26:04

a statement to politicians, but an

26:06

offer to the Australian people to

26:09

walk with First Nations people to a better

26:11

future. The YES campaign to the extent

26:13

that it exists, those proponents

26:15

of the YES Corps have been very

26:18

assiduous in saying this should be

26:20

carried by the Australian people and

26:22

trying to take retail politics

26:25

out of it and speak directly to

26:27

the Australian people a pathway to

26:29

assist for this referendum may

26:31

be, in fact, trying to bypass politics,

26:34

trying to speak to a with a

26:36

moral power, a moral weight,

26:38

speak to the principle of the thing to the

26:40

Australian people, is this chance

26:42

to try to reset relations

26:45

with First Nations people to address the

26:47

great sin of his radio. And

26:49

and of course, once you get the voice,

26:51

if indeed, they were successful, does that

26:53

then lead to the more substantial reforms

26:56

of treaty and truth telling.

26:58

So this is an iterative process. It doesn't

27:01

just end with a voice, but so

27:03

far the strategy from yes proponents

27:06

has been to try to speak over politics

27:08

to the Australian people. And there's been

27:10

fairly consistent polling to show that

27:12

the Australian people support

27:15

the principle of the voice.

27:17

But when that is tested with detail

27:19

and as the political referee heats

27:20

up, is that going to hold? That's the

27:22

question. Now the other sort of

27:25

adjacent issue that's been

27:27

going on, which is different, of course,

27:29

but there are definitely links

27:31

in terms of where this discussion goes is

27:33

what we've seen transpiring Alice Springs,

27:36

meek, spikes in crime in the community

27:38

following the end of the intervention era alcohol

27:40

bans last year that grew grip national

27:43

attention. Linda

27:45

Booney was speaking on our end breakfast

27:47

in the last week or so, and she said that if

27:49

there had had been a voice that this

27:51

sort of thing would have been avoided

27:53

because the voice would have been speaking

27:55

powerfully. Do you think

27:57

that this persuasive argument stand?

28:00

It's really where the rubber hits the road with this

28:02

because even people who have been supportive have

28:04

been saying, but it must lead

28:06

to genuine change on the ground

28:08

in people's lives. And we had a

28:10

question from a first nations

28:12

woman from Alice Springs on Q and A this week

28:14

who said directly to Malandir and McCarthy

28:17

on the panel from Labour. What happens

28:19

when the voice of aboriginal people does

28:21

not sit the political agenda? I mean, we

28:23

can have a voice but what happens

28:25

if that voice is overruled? If you don't

28:28

hear the voice, will the voice

28:30

be adequately able in its representation?

28:33

To speak directly to First Nations

28:36

people and represent those concerns in

28:38

a way that the parliament takes

28:40

heed of I mean, all of those things are

28:42

still to be worked out. But what's happened in our springs

28:44

has become a microcosm, has none of

28:47

the bigger issues here. The question

28:49

of the voice coalesces around the

28:51

societal breakdown that you see

28:53

in our springs and and

28:56

a visual presentation through

28:58

the images and the crime and the anger

29:00

that we're seeing on the streets there, a visual

29:02

representation of just what this means.

29:05

What you were seeing playing out there

29:07

is what two hundred plus years

29:09

of colonization means for First Nations

29:11

people. So all of this

29:14

is is feed into the backdrop of the worldwide

29:16

discussion around what the politics

29:19

of the voice will

29:19

be. But all those issues you talked about too have

29:22

coles for the short term in for the

29:24

immediate, rather, in our springs around

29:26

alcohol, around chrome. The ABC

29:29

understands the report from the regional controller

29:31

in the Northern Territory Dr. Anderson has recommended

29:34

after A11 week inquiry that the Northern

29:36

Territory government urgently legislate amendments

29:38

to its liquor act to impose alcohol

29:40

restrictions and in including

29:43

in town camps, It recommends the liquor

29:45

laws would stay in place until alcohol management

29:47

plans are developed by the communities themselves

29:50

that would allow them to opt out, but

29:52

only with a developed plan. Now

29:54

there's questions about whether a week or long enough

29:56

to file this report, but the stats are

29:58

pretty clear already in the few days

30:00

that the temporary bans have been in place.

30:03

I spoke to a very senior Northern Territory Police

30:05

officer over the weekend who said those

30:07

tighter alcohol restrictions would see

30:09

an immediate and less of drop in domestic

30:11

violence overnight was his word, and

30:13

that's what the most immediate stats have shown

30:15

us, which is, you know, reason enough to extend

30:18

the

30:18

bans. Isn't that? Yeah. You hear from First Nations

30:20

people on the ground as well saying

30:22

that something needs to be done. And if this is a

30:24

short term mechanism to just

30:26

be able to bring some peace, think it's some

30:28

breathing room to look at longer term solutions.

30:31

But what are we doing longer term? I

30:33

mean, we've had alcohol bans four,

30:35

and there's always the risk in any of this,

30:37

of a punitive approach or

30:39

prohibitive approach that is

30:41

not backed up by the significant reform

30:45

investment and time and

30:47

imagination to actually look

30:49

at what the longer term issues

30:51

and solutions are here. We can't

30:54

just simply roll out the police

30:56

and more punishment and more prohibition

30:59

to resolve these issues. And while This

31:01

time, though, is Dan, is the police are even

31:03

saying that. I mean, the police have come out this

31:05

week, so he can't polish your way out of

31:07

this. Of course, you can't. And first notice,

31:09

people have been the most over police people

31:12

in Australia for two hundred years and we

31:14

see the result of that because we were

31:16

three percent of the population, nearly forty percent

31:18

of the prison population clearly, that

31:20

is not the answer. We are the

31:22

people who know what's good for us.

31:25

When we talk about our communities, We're

31:27

not talking about abstract ideas of

31:29

community. We're talking about family.

31:32

Our extended families. We

31:34

know what's good for us and that

31:36

I think comes down to the, again, the

31:38

crux of the matter with the voice, whether

31:40

the voice, whether be treaty, whatever it is,

31:42

what manifestation of that political representation

31:45

is we as First Nations people

31:47

need to have greater control over

31:49

our

31:50

destiny. We know who we are

31:52

Stan, I can't think of a better person we could

31:54

have had on for our debut twenty twenty

31:56

three episode. Thank you so much for stepping

31:58

on to the time. My pleasure. Thanks,

32:01

Dan. We'll

32:03

move to questions without Natus. We'll give

32:05

the call to the later of the opposition. You

32:07

very much, and mister speaking to my questions to the

32:09

prime minister.

32:11

And it's time for our question

32:13

time. We've beaten the federal parliament's

32:16

question time by a weak aren't we good for a couple

32:18

of days? And this question comes

32:20

from, I think, it's Gardeville, who

32:23

writes, what does government

32:25

need to do to counter misinformation about

32:27

the voice? And is the

32:29

is it the responsibility of journalists

32:31

to be better informed while discussing the issue?

32:34

Well, and that's that last one. Yes,

32:36

it is responsible as journalists to be

32:38

as well informed as we can be. But in

32:40

this case, as the Minister of

32:42

Indigenous Affairs, Linda Bernie, and the prime minister

32:44

keep telling us as do other aboriginal

32:47

leaders. It's the responsibility of all of us to

32:49

get informed because this is a referendum in

32:51

which we get to make the decision.

32:53

So we all need to find out what

32:55

we can. Now what does the government need to do to

32:57

counter misinformation? It needs

32:59

to help us all get that information.

33:02

I don't think it is good enough to say there's an eight

33:04

hundred page report out there. You know,

33:06

there's plenty of reports on the table. Go read it

33:08

because People have busy lives. I think

33:10

it's time now, and I think there is

33:13

some kind of launch plan for February twentieth,

33:15

I think, isn't a PK. For,

33:17

you know, clear cohesive information, coherent

33:20

information to be out there about

33:23

what the voice is what is going

33:25

to look like in broad terms. And the reason

33:27

why that kind of detail won't be included

33:29

in the constitution because the constitution is

33:32

the foundation document. It's not a place

33:35

to spell out all the sort of

33:37

nuts and bolts of how something's gonna work. You

33:39

know, in our constitution, it doesn't

33:41

tell us what the prime minister's job is.

33:43

It doesn't tell us that. It just tells us there will

33:45

be a prime minister and cabinet executive

33:48

government. So, you know, it's not place

33:50

for that detail and the referendum is

33:53

to vote for a change of the constitution, but

33:55

that doesn't mean people aren't gonna need

33:57

some more basic information to

33:59

some basic questions so that they

34:01

can make this decision in confidence.

34:03

And I think, you know, yes, the information

34:06

exists everyone, it

34:08

does need to be, I think, delivered

34:12

to people in an easy to this

34:14

information. don't think that's quite the government's

34:16

quite nailed that yet. No. But that is

34:18

coming. We're

34:19

told. But in terms of that part of the

34:21

question about Is it the, you know, responsibility

34:23

of journalists to be better informed while discussing

34:25

the issue? Well, of course, I mean, do you expect

34:28

journalists to be informed of anything they're reporting

34:30

on if they're not they're not doing their job? And

34:32

it's not ethical. Two things I

34:34

wanna point to. One is Guardian

34:36

Australia's editor

34:40

is Leonor Taylor. She wrote an excellent piece

34:42

about a week ago, easy to find if you just search

34:44

for us about that

34:46

very question. And another

34:49

point too, on this answer

34:52

that there's a report you

34:55

know, on the table, people should read it. I agree

34:57

that ordinary Australians kind of be expected,

34:59

you know, to do that. Absolutely agree. And also,

35:02

there's a few reports, but they haven't landed on the

35:04

final model anyway. So --

35:06

Yeah. -- you could

35:06

read it, but it's not necessarily the final

35:08

formation. But when that's mentioned

35:10

and I do think this is an important distinction.

35:13

It's mentioned often in relation to the political

35:15

class. IE, Peter Dutton

35:18

should read the reform because he was in the shadow

35:20

he was in the

35:20

cabinet, but and now he's obviously in the shadow

35:23

cabinet,

35:23

but was That's the cabinet that commissioned it.

35:25

That's right. So that's what it's pointing

35:27

to. I don't think anyone really, and

35:29

if they do their silly, ordinary

35:32

people who are just, you know, getting on with their lives and

35:34

you know, aren't gonna read an entire government

35:36

report they can if they want, but, you know, most people

35:38

don't. And and and that's just

35:40

life. But that's what I think that's

35:42

pointing to that those people

35:45

do have access to it, in fact, were

35:47

given us. And do think that journalists

35:49

need to be informed. So for instance, one thing, you

35:51

know, you hear journalists do is go, what's the detail?

35:53

What's the detail? That's just a meaningless

35:55

word that's repeating what they've heard

35:58

in a political discussion. Some specific

36:00

things can be asked, you know, about the,

36:02

you know, the the remis of the power,

36:05

what kind of things that we'll advise

36:07

on, will it be anything or specific? Lots

36:10

of really good questions about detail. But

36:12

you don't just bandy the word detail around

36:14

without agreeing a specific idea of what

36:16

you're actually trying to find

36:17

out. So I agree, I mean, I

36:19

think there is important. Yeah, think there is

36:21

a clutch of questions that could couldn't

36:23

should be asked and that would help people understand

36:26

and probably reassure people that

36:29

this is not, you know, a third chamber

36:32

of parliament or anything like that.

36:34

So I do think there's those sorts of questions

36:36

that need to be asked and answered. Quickly because,

36:38

you know, as we've been discussing already

36:41

in the podcast, the no campaign is often

36:43

running. And there's a

36:45

a lot of a lot

36:47

of different tracks that this

36:49

is going down already. And I think the

36:51

ES campaign does need to get out there quickly with

36:53

that information campaign, which it's due to

36:55

due. If it intends to win. I mean,

36:57

you know, you've got to be able to if you

36:59

wanna win a campaign, you have to actually

37:01

go out and make a point and

37:03

try and get people on-site. Don't you? So that's

37:05

that's their job to do if they

37:07

if they wanted to be successful. And we know that

37:09

that that a lot there's lot

37:12

at stake here for

37:12

people. Yeah. So clearly, they do.

37:15

Keep sending your questions in because we love getting

37:17

them. You can tweet using the hashtag the party

37:19

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37:21

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37:23

remember, you can follow us the party room on the

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