0:08

It's the Pastors Heart and Dominic Steele , and today

0:10

a Pastors Heart for our kids with

0:13

James Galea . But before we come to our

0:15

topic today , can I ask you to become a

0:17

regular financial partner of

0:19

the Pastors Heart ? There have been a group of

0:21

people who've been supporting us and we're super

0:24

grateful , but we need to grow that base

0:26

. It's been a while since we talked

0:28

about needing assistance , but our costs are up

0:30

and so we're asking for your help . We'd love

0:32

it if you could go to patreoncom , slash

0:34

the Pastors Heart and become a regular

0:37

partner with us . It

0:39

is hard for those of us who are Pastors

0:41

and yet didn't grow up as Pastors Kids

0:43

to really understand the life of

0:46

the child of a pastor , and

0:48

even for those who grew up as children

0:50

of pastors , there's every chance they've forgotten

0:52

. Kath and I , we have three

0:54

kids , now young adults , but neither

0:57

of us grew up as Pastors Kids . But James

0:59

Galea is with us , senior pastor

1:01

himself at Freshwater Anglican Church

1:03

on Sydney's Northern Beaches and grew

1:05

up as a Pastors Kid in Western

1:07

Sydney . James , instead

1:10

of us starting with the Pastors Heart , maybe

1:13

we could start with the heart of the Pastors Kid

1:15

and what was going

1:17

on in your heart as

1:20

a Pastors Kid growing up .

1:22

Yes , it's an unusual experience which

1:25

you don't think is unusual

1:27

until you look back on it , because you just grow

1:29

up in being a Pastors Kid and

1:32

so having the experience of raising

1:36

Pastors Kids now is all like to call

1:38

them children and also being

1:40

a Pastors Kid . It's a unique experience , I

1:43

think . The closest probably it is analogy

1:46

wise of probably being a Politicians Kid . You

1:49

know , I can't imagine what it's like to be the

1:51

son of a PK or Anthony .

1:53

Albanese , you're under

1:55

scrutiny for having a Chairman's Lounge .

1:57

pass the nation is looking on

1:59

you , thoughts about what your dad should do

2:01

, shouldn't do you know that kind of thing , and so it's

2:03

probably a bit like that , but at a much smaller level , and

2:06

so you are in this sort of fishbowl kind

2:09

of experience and it's unique . But

2:11

and there's come through that , joys there's

2:14

a little of amazing experiences . I mean , I was

2:16

part of a church growing up which was

2:18

started as a Bible study and it grew to a large

2:20

, healthy evangelical church in Western Sydney

2:22

and the joys of seeing many people become Christians

2:24

. But also there's a lot of challenges and

2:27

things you're exposed to which other Christians growing

2:30

up in the church aren't experiencing .

2:32

Barnabas Piper in his book says Pastors

2:35

, kids are so often messed

2:37

up , right being your observational

2:39

.

2:39

Not as confident . Nessed up , nessed

2:42

up , oh I , I

2:44

wouldn't say messed up as

2:47

much as other

2:49

people are messed up . I mean , we're all messed up in many

2:52

ways . I think you're just

2:54

privy to more of the church life

2:56

than others , and

2:58

so you see the messiness of that

3:00

as well , and so that can affect you in different ways .

3:02

Can you overhear the kitchen conversations or

3:04

?

3:05

Kitchen conversations . You

3:07

, yeah , and I think just also too

3:10

, it's being aware that I've had

3:12

a very positive experience of being a pastor's kid

3:14

and that's the largest , because church

3:16

was healthy , dad was a good dad . I'm

3:18

more extroverted . I've got a sister who's introverted

3:21

, you know , having people in that home

3:23

was more a drain on her than for me

3:25

, and so everyone has a different experience

3:27

in this and so it's a range of

3:29

different things , and then the result of that can

3:31

be different as well .

3:33

As you've talked toI know you've talked to some other people

3:35

who are pastors , kids , in preparation for today

3:37

. What are some

3:39

of the challenges that people have had ?

3:43

I think I remember a moment it was about 15

3:45

or so years ago being on a youth

3:47

camp which washad a lot

3:49

of Christians from different parts

3:52

of Sydney and there was a lot of pastors

3:54

, kids and missionary kids and at

3:56

this camp there was a seminar for them and I

3:58

was part of it and we

4:00

were in circles , about 30

4:02

of them , and I just said a statement , like some of you

4:04

may feel , like your dad's ministry

4:06

is more important than you , and about half

4:09

of them just sort of nodded and

4:11

that wasit was a haunting nod , really

4:13

, just saying that their experience

4:15

is sort of church ministry is here and their

4:17

dad's values and priorities and then they're

4:19

somewhere down here and that wasthat

4:22

sort of scared me and the sort of just

4:25

seeing them nod because the

4:27

reality is in their world . I

4:30

think

4:32

there's a hard balance between a fine

4:34

line , between serving how

4:36

to sacrificial ministry and workaholism , that

4:40

most members of church don't know the

4:42

difference . But in a family you can tell the difference

4:44

. You can tell if yourwhy

4:46

is your dad doing these things and

4:51

just I think , just like the antidote

4:53

for greed , generosity , I think the

4:55

antidote for workaholism is time . And

4:57

so if there's time spent away

5:00

from ministry on you

5:02

as a family . Then you

5:04

can see your dad's priorities coming

5:06

out and you know Jesus is everything but church

5:08

is not , and those kind of

5:10

things . So , yeah , I

5:13

think at the end of the day , I

5:16

experience a positive experience , because

5:19

I remember a moment where

5:21

dad would

5:23

have time together with us probably once a week

5:25

or so each of us and whereas time

5:27

where he would spend with just us . And

5:30

there was a moment where he was a knock at the door and

5:32

we were about to go have time together and dad said

5:34

and the person at the door said I need to meet with you

5:36

, ray , I need to meet with you . And in

5:39

their mind it was an emergency . It was an emergency

5:41

but that's it . I'm having time together

5:43

. My son and we can meet later

5:45

. And that was a profound moment for me

5:47

because I realised the priorities

5:50

of dad were I sat

5:52

, that he worked

5:54

hard but I

5:57

was a priority in his life

5:59

and he promised his time and we

6:01

went off and spent time together . So

6:04

the time element

6:06

is an important thing . That's why a lot of pastors , kids

6:08

holidays are very special

6:10

because dad or mum is away

6:12

from the church , with families

6:15

present , active

6:17

, and that's where holidays for a lot of pastors . Kids

6:19

are very special times because dad is

6:21

with them . So it's just not limiting

6:23

time with kids to holidays

6:26

, but time in the week to week

6:28

as well .

6:29

Now you told that little illustration

6:31

of ministry was more

6:33

important than me . Yeah , and

6:37

I mean , I felt a knife

6:39

in the heart at that point and you

6:41

described kind of a knife in the heart at that

6:43

point as

6:46

you've . I'm sure that moment

6:49

has impacted your own parenting , do you

6:51

? Want to just .

6:53

Yeah . So for me , wanting to

6:56

spend time with

6:58

my kids , it's the balance of wanting

7:00

them to grow in their faith

7:02

and see that

7:05

life's not all about them

7:07

but also to valuing

7:10

them , and so that

7:12

I think it's a hard

7:14

balance , but I've tried to , you know

7:16

, do time together with each of my kids and listen

7:19

to them , get to know them . I think

7:21

the knocks at the door when

7:23

you live in a rectory don't

7:25

happen as much as they used to , but what

7:27

does happen is the phone is more present

7:30

now , and so I've

7:32

had the battle of putting

7:34

phone away , taking that time together

7:37

, being at the dinner table , present , phone away

7:39

, and that's my battle in terms

7:41

of being present . I may be physically present

7:43

, but am I emotionally present with them

7:45

is

7:48

my struggle . And so fighting for that because

7:51

I , yeah , I may

7:53

be physically present with them you know they did the

7:55

same that kind of thing but I just know I'm

7:57

. I may be a loof and sometimes

8:00

they can see it . They'd be like dad , dad , you know they

8:02

can see I'm thinking about the budget's not

8:04

in a good place , or that . I'm an arsehole

8:07

breakdown and that kind of thing .

8:08

It was Saturday for me last Saturday and

8:11

Kath and I were doing

8:13

something , and then suddenly I thought of a

8:15

better opening line for the sermon for

8:17

Sunday . Yeah , and I've

8:19

got to go and write this down before I forget . Yes , but

8:22

I must have been distracted

8:24

in my interaction with her

8:26

beforehand .

8:29

And so just that , the the suck of ministry

8:31

, I think for some pastors kids . They

8:34

become bitter towards it because it sucked the life

8:36

out of dad , it sucked the life out of mum

8:38

and and they

8:40

bore the brunt

8:42

of that because they didn't have the

8:45

Dada Ran the way that they should have

8:47

.

8:49

Yeah , awareness Other

8:51

people knowing things about your

8:53

life . How

8:56

did you go with that and what's advice

8:58

for church members who

9:01

know things about ? I don't know you

9:03

playing soccer or whatever .

9:04

Or you're soccer win or you're yeah

9:06

yeah , we had the

9:08

philosophy growing up where we

9:11

could , dad would use us in sermon illustrations if

9:13

asked for permission , but if he

9:15

didn't , we'd get five bucks . So when you're a kid

9:17

, five bucks for your dignity wasn't too bad , and

9:20

so we had that sort of deal . But

9:22

you do mainly through sermons

9:26

. People know things about you

9:28

and they think they know you as well , and

9:31

so I think there's a goodness to that

9:34

, because the qualifications of an LD

9:36

is a bit of a what's life like

9:38

at home , is the past of the

9:40

same at home as they are on a Sunday

9:43

, and so character and the way you lead

9:45

and love your family is important . So there's a goodness

9:47

to that . But then I think unintentionally

9:50

, the amount of

9:52

sermon illustrations or the appropriateness of them

9:54

, I've

9:57

sort of realized like I will ask my kids

9:59

, can I tell this story in a sermon

10:01

, to ask for their permission . But

10:03

sometimes I'll say yes and I'm thinking I

10:05

actually got to think is , in 10

10:08

years time , do they still want

10:10

this story being out

10:12

there ? Because as a 10 year old they're

10:14

like , oh yeah , this is great , I'm before this . But

10:16

as a 17 year old , would

10:18

they still want it ? So there's a bit of wisdom that

10:21

you need to have as the adult

10:23

of , as a goodness in sharing , asking

10:25

for permission to

10:27

share it , but also to thinking

10:29

future them . Would they still want this story

10:32

? And so it's appropriate to be told in

10:34

the future , if that makes sense . So

10:37

I think it's the sermon that it's the

10:40

big part where people know

10:43

things about you and that

10:45

kind of thing , because there's an openness and the goodness

10:48

to it .

10:48

But there's a line . What

10:50

about people making assumptions about

10:52

you ?

10:54

Yeah , I think that's a hard

10:56

one because people just assume oh , you're

10:58

a past , this kid , your faith is growing great

11:01

, you're rejoicing the Lord

11:03

and you

11:05

don't have doubts , and

11:07

so I think doubts is a big one Is

11:11

there . Am I allowed to have

11:13

doubts and ask questions and

11:16

not feel like I have to have all the answers ? Because

11:19

you do grow up in church and you know , you

11:21

are aware of the Bible , you

11:23

know the Bible verses , you know the Columbia Canons , songs

11:25

, that kind of thing . This is a familiarity and you

11:28

know what the answer is is Jesus the Bible . And

11:30

you can spit them out . But

11:32

then there's a healthiness in am

11:35

I allowed to actually have the doubt ? So

11:37

I went through a big season of doubt of is

11:39

Jesus God For about a year , year and

11:41

a half . And

11:43

how old were you then ? Oh , I was about 18

11:45

. And

11:49

so but and I was also a youth

11:51

leader at the time and so I was trying to wrestle

11:53

like is Jesus God ? And the whole

11:55

factors brought about these doubts

11:57

. But it was that journey . But what was

11:59

helpful was I was allowed to go on that journey

12:01

and I just saw other

12:03

people at church . They went on journeys

12:05

of doubts and came out the other side and

12:07

grew stronger . So they get me hope . But

12:10

a culture where I was able to

12:12

share and wrestle with and ask questions

12:15

was profoundly helpful . I wasn't shamed

12:17

into thinking oh , you're a past , this kid , you can't

12:19

have any doubts , you should be fine . Because

12:21

often when people have doubts it's

12:24

more reflection on them because they're thinking well , if you're doubting

12:26

and you don't have the confidence , what about

12:28

me ? And they get worried and so

12:30

they think oh no , you shouldn't doubt , just believe , just believe . But

12:35

and that was very helpful and by the end of that year and a half I

12:37

came out with a conviction no , jesus is God

12:39

. But I had to go on that journey

12:41

. So , being allowed to do that , not assuming

12:44

that theology

12:46

, their life , is all neatly

12:48

packaged up .

12:50

So you were treated differently by the youth leaders

12:52

because you were the son of the senior

12:54

leader .

12:57

I think sometimes you can get fast tracked

12:59

into leadership roles because

13:02

of the other person's kid and not go through the normal

13:04

reference checks that others would . So

13:06

sometimes you get fired and that's not healthy for

13:08

anyone . I can think you need to go through the proper

13:11

process of character reference commitment

13:13

to church . Like everyone else , sometimes

13:16

you get treated differently . I

13:20

remember this is different to the youth

13:22

learning experience , but I think it was seven

13:24

, eight , going to the morning tea table taking

13:26

way too much food than I should , and

13:29

then someone said , oh , you shouldn't do that , you're a pastor's kid . And

13:32

for me I was like , oh , like I

13:34

still remember that moment , obviously , and

13:36

I think the problem with it was not that

13:38

we're calling me out , but they should

13:41

have said oh , you know , we don't do that , we want to be

13:43

generous because we're Christians , not

13:45

because we're pastors kids . And so I think

13:47

there's a healthiness in being

13:49

part of church community where I'm being

13:51

discipled not just by my parents but by others

13:53

like my family . But coming

13:56

back to and this is what I say to a church , treat

13:58

pastors kids as Christians , not as pastors

14:00

kids , and because we do need each other

14:02

, grow in sanctification it's a communal thing

14:04

, but focus

14:06

on their faith and

14:09

treat them as you would others who

14:11

are growing and then are long leech and love the

14:13

Lord Jesus , who are living in grace

14:16

. Yeah

14:19

.

14:20

Now , as you were just saying that , I was thinking my

14:22

wife is really clear on . We've got to focus

14:24

on dishonesty , disrespect and disobedience

14:27

with our kids and not sweat the small stuff

14:29

like what kind of clothes they wear and yeah

14:31

, I'm pretty sure

14:34

, some people kind of raised eyebrows

14:36

.

14:36

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah , different

14:38

clothes . It's picking your battles

14:40

, yeah . Yeah

14:42

, people did expect you to be the perfect angel

14:44

, so yeah I

14:47

, the church I grew up in , was

14:49

there wasn't a Reverend Lovejoy

14:51

Simpsons kind of pressure . Yeah , I

14:55

would say it was a healthy mix . There

14:57

was examples that I shared before where

14:59

it was not great , but generally

15:02

speaking it was it was good , and

15:04

I think having leaders

15:06

like a youth leader who discipled me

15:08

, a guy called Kev , was profoundly influential

15:11

in that and he treated me

15:13

just like one of the other teenage boys and

15:16

so that was really helpful in

15:18

that .

15:19

Yeah , what did your parents particularly

15:21

do ? Well , as you think back , I

15:25

think they .

15:29

I think a couple of things . One is the time together

15:31

element was looking back . That was the

15:33

men , a lot so that , and my

15:35

love language is quality time , so maybe , but

15:37

I think my sisters would share the same , so that

15:40

time each week of okay , I know

15:42

dad's busy , he's got a lot to do , you

15:44

know , leading a church plant and all that , but there

15:46

was time when I knew he would spend with me . I

15:50

think also to one

15:52

of the big things , to be honest , was them

15:55

saying sorry . So

15:58

, years as teenagers

16:00

, young adults , there were certain things that

16:02

they did which , either through our sharing

16:05

or them realizing

16:07

that they weren't great in certain

16:09

areas , in parenting , and rather than hiding

16:11

behind that well , no parents perfect , you know , we're

16:13

all just making up rather hiding behind that excuse

16:16

, they owned it and said

16:18

sorry , and I can still remember

16:20

those moments of them saying sorry for

16:22

the things that they didn't do as well as parenting

16:24

. In that just meant the world , and

16:26

I think that

16:28

that's one of the things that I want to do in my

16:31

parenting there's mistakes that

16:33

I'm going to make , I'm not going to do a perfect

16:35

job at this , and that

16:37

if I live in grace , if my sin has been forgiven

16:39

, then I can own it and listen

16:41

and the things that I've fallen

16:43

in in apologize to them . That's

16:46

in , even though they're good parents . That

16:48

, for me , made them great parents , because they

16:50

own their sin , confess it and ask for forgiveness

16:53

in the ways in which they

16:57

weren't as good in parenting . Yeah , that

16:59

was he healing . Yeah .

17:01

I mean you grow up , I mean your

17:04

dad not as prominent as somebody

17:06

like I don't know , brian Houston

17:08

or Mark Driscoll or John

17:10

Piper or something , but in our circles in Sydney

17:12

pretty prominent and on

17:15

major convention platforms

17:17

in Australia and that kind of thing . How did

17:19

that make it more complex for you ?

17:23

I think it wasn't . It didn't

17:25

, it wasn't a negative thing . I do think if

17:27

you're the son of a pastor

17:29

who has been publicly

17:31

us stand

17:33

down for various reasons inappropriate behavior

17:36

, then that brings a

17:38

shame and sticks to you . I

17:40

don't know what that's like . I can't imagine what that's like

17:42

. If your dad's more a controversial

17:44

figure for

17:47

various reasons , then

17:49

I think that would be harder Dad's

17:52

not that he's

17:54

. So in my mind

17:56

it was a positive thing . But I

17:58

do think also to the you

18:01

, some pastors

18:03

, kids and I do can earn

18:05

to this there is a pride

18:08

or entailment that can come about

18:10

as well . So sometimes there's the bitterness

18:12

extreme , but there's also there's a pride , entitlement

18:14

where you can find your identity

18:16

in being a past , as kid and

18:19

the connections and they can start

18:21

small of , just like you get the

18:23

leftover food from

18:27

a meeting or that kind of thing oh , you get these

18:29

sort of special things . You can start there .

18:30

You're first at the church to check out what's in the

18:32

church fridge . Yeah , yeah .

18:34

So you kind of get those kind of export benefits

18:36

all the way to like being

18:38

known , and if it's a positive thing

18:40

that can get

18:43

to your head and create an unhealthy

18:45

pride as well , so there's that

18:47

extreme as well . So just

18:49

knowing your own heart is

18:53

an important thing , because , yeah , so

18:55

I think it depends on what

18:57

perception in the

18:59

past , the past that has community wise

19:01

, can affect you , and then that can

19:03

either lead in different directions bitterness , pride

19:06

. For me it was

19:08

the more the battle with pride .

19:10

Hmm really yeah , yeah

19:12

, keep going .

19:14

Oh , I just think you

19:17

like . My default

19:19

is all like when I became a Christian , it was

19:21

letting go of the good things I'd done and

19:23

realizing they absolutely didn't

19:26

matter in terms of my salvation . So

19:28

I've always battled with that

19:30

in that space . And so , in

19:32

terms of pride of

19:35

either what I've done

19:37

, who I know , my achievements and

19:40

growing up that

19:43

is a past year that was always my

19:45

wrestling was what

19:47

I've done . All the good things I've done didn't

19:51

mean anything in terms of my salvation , and

19:53

so that has been , and always been , my

19:55

battle . Mm-hmm .

19:57

Barnabas Parker says few people

19:59

can do hypocrisy more smoothly

20:02

than a pastor's kid . Expand

20:06

comments yeah .

20:07

Yeah , I think yeah , because you can easily

20:09

live one way on a Sunday

20:12

and a different

20:14

way either at home or

20:16

at school , and

20:18

because you can particularly hypocrisy

20:21

can be , you can act a

20:23

different character on a Sunday , act a

20:25

different person on a Monday

20:27

, in the

20:29

more extreme ends yeah yeah

20:31

, so everyone battles with hypocrisy

20:33

at one level , but I think there's just an extremity

20:36

to it and , being a pastor's kid , because

20:38

of that communal nature

20:40

, the spotlights on you , that kind of thing

20:43

, yeah .

20:45

Identity issues and sorting out your own

20:47

identity as a

20:50

person yourself . I imagine

20:52

it's . I mean , it's something that everyone

20:55

has to go through , but what

20:57

are the complexities in sorting out your own

20:59

identity distinct from high

21:02

profile dad ?

21:04

Yeah , I think it was funny . One thing that was helpful

21:06

in me growing up in my faith

21:08

was actually moving . I

21:10

think I might have been maybe

21:13

13 , 14 , 15 , something like that , moving

21:15

from the morning service and going to the evening service

21:17

, and that was that step was

21:19

actually me saying I'm going to go to church on

21:21

my own . Dad was still the pastor of the evening

21:23

church but it was separated

21:25

from my family so I was owning my faith and

21:28

choosing to go . Those kind

21:30

of moments . School camps where

21:34

sorry , christian camps were very

21:37

helpful because I was away from the local church community

21:39

, with meeting with other Christians , growing

21:41

my own faith that allowed me to be

21:44

a Christian and not be seen as a pastor's

21:46

kid , so things that were separate

21:48

from that . Moving out of the home , actually

21:51

, when I realized

21:53

oh , people don't just turn up

21:55

to your house , you have to invite them in , because

21:58

I was just used to people always being there in the house and

22:00

so those kind of steps of

22:03

independence were healthy

22:05

and helpful because it

22:07

was . Is this faith just

22:10

one I've inherited or

22:12

is it my own and my

22:14

identity in that ? So

22:16

those steps of independence and parents allowing

22:19

me to do that was helpful .

22:23

What about teaching

22:27

something different to what Dad might have taught

22:29

, like forming your own theological

22:31

thoughts and ending up disagreeing

22:34

with him on a point ?

22:35

Yeah , yeah Well , even me

22:37

, at a simple thing of not being in

22:39

Western Sydney ministering

22:41

. There is

22:44

not a theological thing but me ministering in all the major

22:46

different parts of Sydney .

22:48

When he's given his life to Western Sydney . Yeah , I loved

22:50

it .

22:50

Yeah , yeah , yeah , and

22:53

so that it may sound very mild

22:55

, but that was a sacrifice in

22:57

some ways . Oh , that was a . I'm not a sacrifice

22:59

, but more like a . That was a tug of the heart because

23:02

it was different to what Dad

23:04

was doing , but that's actually been healthy for me in

23:07

ministering a different part of Sydney , in

23:10

my own pastoring

23:13

journey yeah , so

23:15

where I am and not where I thought I'd be growing

23:18

up , but it's actually been healthy for me in

23:20

that separation and

23:23

a different , avoiding

23:26

comparison in some ways . Yeah , because

23:28

I wanted to compare myself with that in terms of character

23:30

and with those kind of things and be

23:32

like him in godliness , but

23:34

I don't have to be like him in everything . Yeah

23:37

, that makes sense .

23:38

Now lots of our regular

23:40

pastors heart audience are people in pastoral

23:43

ministry , but I'm assuming that for

23:45

this episode we have some

23:47

kids of pastors watching

23:50

, listening , engaging with us , and probably

23:52

some adult kids of pastors , some

23:54

of whom it's going well with Jesus

23:57

and some of whom they've walked away

23:59

from Jesus . What do you want to say to those

24:01

different groups of people ? Because

24:04

you obviously talk to people in that situation

24:07

.

24:07

Yeah , in both . I

24:11

think if you're walking well with the Lord , I think God

24:14

has placed it's not an accident

24:16

that he's placed you in the family , that

24:19

he's placed you in he's as

24:21

a pastor's kid , you

24:23

have a unique experience and he's using that

24:25

for your own discipleship , growth

24:27

and so , with the challenges

24:30

or the joys of that , it

24:33

is his discipling you and so see

24:35

it in that through

24:37

that lens , in terms of where the trials

24:40

come and temptations come . Use

24:44

it in terms of your growth and love

24:46

of Jesus . I think , if you've walked

24:49

away from the Lord or if

24:51

it's been a very negative experience and burnt

24:53

out or whatever it might be , I

24:56

and you've particularly had a negative experience of

24:58

your dad because

25:00

he might have , you know , for

25:04

whatever reason , I

25:06

think , go to your . Don't compare

25:09

your dad , sorry , do

25:11

compare your dad to your heavenly father , not

25:14

your heavenly father to your dad , because heavenly

25:16

father is that product . I always think

25:18

of the prodigal son . He's the father on that doorstep

25:21

that waiting

25:23

for us to come . He's

25:25

not , you know , disappointed . We didn't achieve

25:29

certain things , be certain things , let

25:31

us down . He's heavenly father is

25:33

that one , that the porch waiting

25:36

for us , no matter what we've done , never

25:38

come to come home , and so that

25:42

would be my advice is just

25:46

know that God's love is constant

25:49

and is there every day , and whatever

25:51

that moment that you may

25:53

realise like , oh , I

25:56

may have had a bad experience of

25:58

church or being a pastor's kid , but

26:01

yet God loves

26:03

me , his son died for me and

26:06

he wants me to come home . Just always

26:08

remember that , because that

26:10

truth is liberating and yeah

26:12

.

26:14

Now , as you , as you spoke

26:16

to Stan , I was thinking I think James

26:18

is speaking to the person who , well

26:20

, it wasn't great

26:23

being the pastor's

26:25

kid , but

26:27

it wasn't that . Actually , dad was profoundly

26:31

wicked , yes , yeah . And

26:34

yet there are some pastors

26:36

who have spectacularly

26:39

done the wrong thing , and

26:42

we have watched great

26:44

falls from

26:47

grace , you know , a pastor

26:49

being arrested or something like that , for

26:54

something that was seriously wrong in

26:58

the eyes of the world and the eyes of the church

27:00

. What's your

27:02

word to that child ?

27:06

I think I cannot imagine what

27:08

that would be like . I think

27:10

that is just the

27:13

horror , the

27:15

shame , the embarrassment is

27:17

like . It would

27:19

be profound . I

27:22

think my word to them would just

27:24

be God

27:27

is different to

27:30

what you've experienced . Like God's , if

27:33

you've experienced that that is not what God

27:35

intended for

27:39

shepherds over his flock , and

27:42

acknowledging that

27:44

it is like in terms of the

27:46

failure and then , but also to going

27:49

to the fact that wherever

27:53

he has failed , jesus is not , and

27:57

just going back to who Jesus is his

28:00

gentleness , his kindness

28:03

, his perfection , his

28:06

consistency and who

28:08

he is the character of Christ and

28:10

not going to him and

28:14

then carrying him , would

28:16

be my encouragement . But

28:20

I think a lot of people it's just they

28:22

don't , they haven't

28:24

had this experience . There are some , but

28:27

I think most people it's just normal

28:29

day to day interactions and

28:31

they've decided they've had

28:33

the same experiences as another one who's still a Christian

28:35

, but they've decided no , I don't want to follow

28:37

Jesus anymore . And

28:40

there could be a whole range of reasons

28:43

for that . They might blame being a

28:45

pastor's kid , but sometimes it's

28:47

just the love of this

28:49

world , this materialism , and

28:51

so they've gone in that direction

28:53

and that I've experienced that , but

28:55

that I made it as a profound grief as a parent . So

28:58

my words to pastors who are experiencing

29:01

that just be responsible for what you're responsible for

29:03

, as in none

29:05

of us are responsible for making our children Christians

29:08

. That's God's job . He's the one

29:10

who turns the light on , so to speak . But

29:13

we are responsible for the way we've behaved and

29:17

presented at Jesus in different ways . And

29:20

so I think , as pastors going back to

29:22

what I said , my parents in terms of what they were responsible for with

29:25

their actions , and apologizing for that , living

29:29

in grace , because I do think a genuine

29:31

sorry is the beginning of healing

29:33

for

29:36

a lot of the relationships .

29:38

Thanks so much for coming in Pleasure For

29:41

sharing James Gallier

29:43

, our guest on the Pastors Heart . James is the

29:45

senior minister of Freshwater

29:47

Anglican Church on the Northern Beaches . You've been with us on

29:49

the Pastors Heart . My

29:51

name's Dominic Steele . We'll look forward to your

29:53

company next Tuesday afternoon

29:55

.