0:08

It's the Pastors' Heart in Dominic Steele and today

0:10

church is working together so people

0:12

might meet Jesus and a full crew today

0:15

Richard Chin , elliot Temple , baden Stace

0:17

and Rory Shiner . There's a saying

0:19

a rising tide lifts

0:21

all boats and in evangelistic

0:24

fervour we want to see the boats rise

0:26

. But how do we increase the mission heat

0:28

in church ? And how can we do that ? By

0:30

working together . There are plans under

0:33

foot for an Australia-wide Meet

0:35

Jesus campaign . Richard Chin

0:37

leads the University Campus Ministry

0:39

across Australia . He's the National Director

0:41

of the Australian Fellowship of Evangelical

0:43

Students . Baden Stace is the

0:45

senior pastor of St Stephen's Anglican

0:48

Church in Normanhurst to Sydney's North

0:50

Elliot . Temple is mission pastor

0:52

of Christchurch St Ives , also

0:55

in the North of Sydney and with us remotely

0:57

from Western Australia . Rory Shiner he

0:59

is the Chair of the Gospel Coalition Australia

1:02

and senior pastor of Providence

1:04

Church in Perth . Elliot

1:06

, I wonder if we could start

1:08

with you , for your pastor's heart is

1:11

to increase the mission

1:13

heat that in a busy church we

1:15

would be focused on reaching

1:18

the lost .

1:19

Yeah , because when you turn up to church

1:21

and there's all these people in the room , it's really

1:23

easy to focus on the people in the room

1:25

. But our heart

1:27

is shaped by God's heart , His

1:29

vision for all nations . So

1:32

raising the heat is about helping our

1:34

church lift our eyes up and

1:36

out and constantly having

1:39

a kingdom vision . And

1:41

in our church , one of the things that brings me

1:43

joy it's not just telling

1:46

people to lift your eyes and lift them

1:48

up and out . So it's when you hear stories

1:50

like in late last

1:52

year a young person who put their faith

1:55

in Christ then introduced

1:57

his friend in January this year to put

1:59

their faith in Christ , and you see

2:01

the joy on their face . When people get

2:03

up and share their faith and are celebrated

2:05

in the congregation , it just keeps reminding

2:08

us to keep looking outward

2:10

and sharing the good news of Jesus

2:13

.

2:13

So , richard Chin , I wonder there's

2:15

all sorts of things to ask you about in terms of outcomes

2:18

and goals and all those kind of things for this Meet

2:20

Jesus campaign . But perhaps you could take

2:22

us back to its genesis . So I'm

2:24

imagining there was a group of you sitting

2:26

around in some dusty , dark

2:28

room of planning meeting

2:31

.

2:32

Yeah , dungeon dark inside the hallowed

2:34

halls of St Andrews Hall , actually

2:36

in Melbourne , if you believe such dark

2:38

hall that is , but St Andrews Hall

2:40

, the mission's training centre for

2:42

the CMS is where actually a group of us gathered

2:44

, Although that was to come up with this title

2:47

Meet Jesus . But the genesis really

2:49

went back to how do we increase

2:52

the temperature of evangelism across ?

2:54

the country . So it's the same question that , elliot Scott

2:56

, you were starting your thinking on the university

2:58

campus this year , correct ? And

3:00

how do you increase the temperature of evangelism

3:03

across the country ?

3:04

Well , firstly , ensure that we share our heart

3:06

with God's heart , which is a heart for the lost

3:08

. It's Jesus weeping over Jerusalem

3:11

. It's an adoring Christ for who he is

3:13

, because when we understand that he

3:15

alone is worthy of all glory

3:17

, honour and power , only then will it start

3:19

to convict us of what we need to do with

3:22

our lives . And so it's firstly

3:24

understanding who Jesus is . And

3:26

one thing's for sure our knowledge of Christ

3:28

is small , and the bigger it

3:30

is , that's when we start to think big

3:32

thoughts his way . So

3:34

it's the heart . And then , of course , it's

3:36

relying on human prayer . And

3:38

so one of the big things , really even though we've

3:41

got this meet Jesus thing happening is

3:43

prayer . And so we've tried to come

3:45

up with this simple two for two thing

3:47

, which is praying for two unbelieving friends

3:50

for two minutes daily , and we

3:52

can get all our people doing that , our

3:54

ministers doing that , our staff doing that

3:56

, our student leaders , our parishioners , our

3:58

elders and the like . If that's the first thing that

4:00

we do , two minutes of every meeting that we go

4:02

to , that alone would be revival . Who

4:05

knows what God's going to do with those prayers to

4:07

start off with . And then , secondly , if

4:10

we model that and we're doing that , and we

4:12

see the people whom we pray for on

4:14

the streets or whatever . We're going to do something

4:16

about that , aren't we ? So it's prayer foundationally

4:19

, and then the other stuff with regard

4:21

to the meet Jesus theme .

4:23

We did come around . How did that title

4:26

come about ? That meet Jesus title ?

4:27

Yeah , well , we argued about it . So what was

4:30

this ? What was this ?

4:31

What were the some of the ones you ?

4:32

threw away . Encountering

4:35

Jesus . Jesus is great , jesus

4:38

is king . Do you know Jesus ? You

4:40

know a number of things , so we put it in the

4:42

categories of questions , of statements

4:45

, of imperatives . But

4:47

we figured that meet Jesus At

4:49

one level . A number of us thought that was the lamest

4:52

of the titles , but in the end

4:54

we could see that that was a generic one that

4:56

really did work well and to

4:58

allow the individuality of application

5:00

across the country , we said why don't you

5:03

come up with your own taglines , just

5:06

meet Jesus , or meet Jesus

5:08

, find life or whatever it is . But meet

5:10

Jesus , in the end , was the substantive

5:14

, generic title that we thought we could

5:16

all go with as the

5:18

background noise that we hope

5:20

could be there for everyone to

5:22

actually engage with . And then

5:24

we could do our own individual taglines

5:26

. But the big

5:28

idea behind that on top of

5:31

prayer , of course , which is the foundational thing

5:33

is to create this background noise

5:35

across the whole nation , where possible

5:37

across our churches , our campuses

5:39

, our cities , so that people

5:41

will think what's this meet Jesus thing ? I'm going to see

5:43

it and it's the same branding . So

5:46

the secret is branding . You

5:48

thought it was the gospel , wasn't ?

5:49

it , but it's branding .

5:51

But it's branding that , of course , is

5:53

inconsistent . I'm sorry , it's

5:55

consistent with the gospel itself .

5:57

Okay , let's go to Perth , and to Rory Shiner , I

5:59

take it . Rory Richard rang

6:01

you up and said I've come up with this plan

6:04

.

6:05

Yeah . So Richard

6:08

did ring me up and we heard

6:12

about this meet Jesus campaign . As

6:15

with my TGC hat

6:17

on , we were very keen to jump

6:19

on board . I

6:21

think for a couple of reasons . Firstly

6:24

because I think the Missiology

6:26

is right , as in the

6:29

campaign is that very

6:31

simple pray for two people

6:33

and seek opportunities

6:35

to read the Gospel of John with them

6:37

. To our

6:40

mind that is that's exactly right

6:42

. That's the kind of

6:44

interpersonal , low-key

6:48

but achievable

6:51

way of thinking about mission in our

6:53

particular context . And the

6:55

second thing was you had that advantage of the national

6:58

profile Really powerful , I think , to

7:00

have . You

7:02

know it's not a Billy Graham 1959

7:05

big events type of

7:07

approach , but it is that taking opportunities

7:09

with the internet and

7:11

a variety of partner

7:13

organisations to just make

7:16

the meat Jesus

7:18

idea more plausible

7:21

, as it's just around , as you can

7:23

kind of point to the

7:26

advertising and the graphics and so on . That's

7:28

the thing that we're really excited about

7:31

with the meat Jesus campaign .

7:33

Now Baden Stace , your

7:35

senior pastor at St Stephen's , Norman Hurst

7:38

, but working witha group of churches

7:40

. How did

7:42

you grab hold of this idea

7:44

and run with it ?

7:47

Well at the local level

7:49

. We're always trying to promote confidence

7:51

in evangelism . We're trying to promote a culture

7:53

of evangelism , always trying to talk at

7:55

church about people coming to know Jesus and how

7:57

that happens . We're trying to promote a context

8:00

for evangelism in church

8:02

and one-to-one discipleship

8:05

and investigative courses . But

8:07

the fruit of our meat Jesus initiative

8:09

really grew out of

8:11

the fellowship of five senior ministers on the

8:13

upper north side of Sydney and we've

8:15

been gathering together for prayer and encouragement

8:18

for over about 18 months . And

8:21

we would just ask each other how are

8:23

you going ? What are you doing , what are you trying ? What's

8:25

working ? How are you feeling ? Can we do something

8:27

together ? And we began

8:30

to think about a focused season

8:32

of mission which , as it happens , was already

8:34

pre-planned to be the April of

8:36

this year . We contacted more college and

8:39

we want to connect with the feeder ministry of more college

8:41

, and so we have arranged four

8:45

mission teams around about 70 more

8:47

college students to come to these five parishes

8:49

on the upper north side of Sydney . We've

8:52

arranged one signature

8:54

event with Kinesh Garafal , the

8:56

Archbishop of Sydney , coming to preach

8:59

at a large scale event

9:01

.

9:01

We're hoping to fill a large venue and

9:03

the invitation he

9:06

was telling me last week he's pretty excited about

9:09

his visit .

9:09

We're very excited . We're really hoping and praying

9:12

fervently that we will

9:14

fill that venue and that it'll be

9:16

a significant moment for the Gospel

9:18

. On the upper north side of Sydney and

9:21

all of the churches have been praying praying over a series

9:23

of months and we're getting down to the

9:25

weeks leading up to the mission

9:28

and we're praying weekly together

9:31

and in the final 24

9:33

hours we're praying 24-hourly . So

9:36

we're really praying for a great season and

9:38

we've got these more college students about 70

9:40

coming to live with the families and

9:42

the parishes and to do a whole range of mission

9:45

activities in the parishes

9:47

themselves . So one signature

9:49

event with Kinesh Garafal . Kinesh

9:51

Garafal has a wonderful story to

9:53

tell himself of meeting Jesus . A

9:56

person gave him the Gospel of John when

9:58

he was a university student . He read it so

10:00

compelled by the person of Jesus that leapt from

10:02

the pages . He gave his life to Christ

10:04

. But the invitation to

10:07

meet Jesus and to

10:09

do mission under this banner came sort of

10:11

later in the piece . We were sort of

10:13

workshopping ideas . You know

10:15

what kind of theme could we be doing this under

10:18

? And it was really the invitation of AFES

10:20

to use the material

10:22

that they had put together . That we

10:24

thought was terrific . In

10:27

fact , it was Kineshka who emailed

10:29

the senior ministers of the diocese

10:31

with this invitation to say AFS

10:33

and making this material available

10:35

to you . I'll leave it with you . So

10:38

we workshopped that idea as a bunch of senior ministers

10:40

. We thought it was great . The

10:43

tagline was just nice and clear

10:45

and simple and not

10:47

an oversell we just want you to take the

10:49

first step of meeting Jesus . That's

10:54

how our Meet Jesus initiative has

10:57

taken shape and we're really excited .

10:59

Elliot , as I've thought about it , there's

11:02

really two sorts of churches . There's the church that's already

11:04

got an evangelism plan and already

11:06

got a pipeline structure going , and

11:09

then the , I suppose , the less organized , less

11:11

planned ad hoc

11:13

church . You're definitely in the former category

11:15

. How are you making

11:18

use of the Meet Jesus campaign

11:20

?

11:21

Yeah . So at a micro

11:23

level and for the church that's just

11:25

wanting to take a small step , we're

11:28

simply running a Meet Jesus event

11:30

and using the uncover gospel

11:32

of John . But

11:35

I want to suggest that at a macro level

11:37

, we're actually trying to imitate a lot of

11:39

the principles that AFS are

11:41

modeling here . And just

11:44

a shout out to the way that I've

11:46

observed over many years , afs

11:49

has a gospel generosity

11:51

that goes beyond the people

11:53

who are gathered . Afs

11:56

has for many years given

11:58

people a vision of evangelism to

12:00

take the gospel out , but also sending

12:02

missionaries overseas . And

12:05

I was at a conference recently with

12:07

CMS Summer School or the

12:09

Church Missionary Society , and they said university

12:11

campuses have outstripped

12:14

parishes in having

12:16

a global vision and sending missionaries

12:18

. And that's a challenge in my parish

12:21

, that we want to actually rise

12:23

to our global passion

12:26

. And what I'm seeing with

12:28

Richard and with AFS

12:30

is that there's a

12:32

generosity of we're offering

12:34

our resources . We're offering you

12:36

know , we're building the brand

12:39

. We're doing all these things Not

12:42

because in our patch we will get

12:44

all the benefit , but because we want glory to go to God

12:47

. So there's a gospel generosity

12:49

that I

12:52

want to copy in my parish and

12:54

what that means in Christchurch

12:56

and I's is that at a macro level , we started

12:58

the year with a vision for

13:00

mission , just

13:03

as you've said about for AFS

13:05

. You could have started the year with all kinds

13:08

of visions , but you said I want Australia

13:10

to get behind this thing where

13:13

everyone can meet Jesus , and

13:15

I want to pray and I want to gather people

13:17

to pray and build momentum about

13:20

people meeting Jesus . So

13:22

at Christchurch we're organized

13:25

from the beginning of the year to the end of the

13:27

year every year around setting

13:29

a big vision , talking big vision every

13:31

Sunday and helping our

13:34

groups that meet during the week

13:37

to keep orienting towards that

13:39

vision . At a very practical

13:41

level , what that means at the moment is

13:44

all through our church , through

13:46

our small groups and everywhere , we're

13:48

training people to lift their eyes

13:50

to specific names

13:52

to pray about for mission . And

13:55

we're moving towards Easter where

13:57

at Easter we will invite

13:59

people to take the next step , because you get guests

14:01

at Easter and the next step

14:03

will become and meet Jesus at the

14:05

Meet Jesus event . And then at

14:08

the Meet Jesus event , we'll be inviting

14:10

people to look at Jesus in the Gospel of John

14:12

using uncover . So

14:15

it's quite a long answer just to say

14:17

that at the macro level , we

14:19

want to set a big vision or year , but

14:21

the Meet Jesus thing if you want to just take a small

14:24

step , you can simply start

14:26

by running one event

14:28

and stepping in to think

14:31

at that event what am I

14:33

wanting to achieve and what's my

14:35

next step ? And how can I help

14:37

people look at Jesus in the Gospel

14:39

, in this case in the Gospel of John

14:41

, so that they might discover how

14:43

great he is and want to follow him ?

14:46

I like what you're saying there in terms of pipeline

14:48

. You really thought

14:50

through pipeline well .

14:53

Well , I suspect that churches

14:56

that have the time and energy that give

14:58

thought to pipeline will spend

15:00

a lot of time constructing a bit

15:02

of a schedule for the year where

15:04

you're not only imagining

15:06

a vision , where

15:09

you get people on board and get people

15:11

involved , but you're also reinforcing

15:13

that regularly with storytelling and celebration

15:16

. So it's quite simple

15:18

really . In the end , all we do

15:20

is keep gathering with

15:22

eyes lifted to the world , the Bible . Whenever

15:25

you preach a scripture , it doesn't

15:27

just apply to people in the room , it applies to everyone

15:29

in the whole world . It's a universal

15:32

message for all people . So

15:34

why do we often stop

15:36

at application within the room ? We

15:39

want to , every Sunday , be lifting

15:41

preaching to think global . We

15:43

want to meet in growth groups and small

15:45

group gatherings where , instead of just applying

15:48

it to the needs in the room

15:50

, we're thinking how does this apply beyond

15:52

the room and within that culture

15:55

? If you have a plan , any

15:57

plan that gets people working together

15:59

, it increases a culture

16:01

of evangelism .

16:04

Rory , if we could just ask you to take off your hat

16:06

as chair of the Gospel Coalition

16:08

Australia and put on your hat as senior pastor

16:10

of Providence Church in Perth . Can

16:13

you talk to us about how you guys

16:15

are hoping this will play out on the ground in your

16:17

local context ?

16:18

Yeah , look , we are using

16:20

it very similar to what Elliot

16:23

has described . We're

16:25

actually doing it now . So the big focus

16:27

for us will be in August and there's

16:29

an evangelistic event

16:32

that's a kind of city-wide AFES

16:35

hosted event . So there'll be an

16:38

increase in kind

16:40

of public presence then . But at the moment actually , in fact

16:43

tomorrow night , we have our second

16:45

reading , john meet

16:48

Jesus by reading John's gospel session , and

16:50

we've put the word out this year Every

16:53

quarter we run an evangelistic

16:57

kind . Of course we normally use a taste

16:59

and see course , but this term we're doing John's

17:03

gospel and it's just been fantastic . We've been

17:05

preaching through it on Sundays and we have

17:07

a . I think there were like 11 people there

17:09

last week

17:12

and it's just . We literally

17:14

just read through John's gospel , use

17:16

these five R's , five questions

17:19

. It's very easy to

17:21

run and it's always

17:23

encouraging because we've also got that two for two thing

17:25

people praying for two people that

17:28

they know that they want to know Jesus and

17:30

just as well as bringing them before

17:32

God , it means that they're in your mind so

17:34

that whenever you say , hey

17:36

, we've got a group reading John's gospel , we

17:39

know that people in church are thinking about the people

17:41

that they can invite along . So we've seen some early

17:44

fruit for that and it's . It is

17:46

one of those things that

17:48

once you , once you see

17:51

it , you can't unsee it . Once you think

17:53

, oh , there is such a thing

17:55

as people , and quite a lot of people

17:57

, who , given relational capital

17:59

, would come and read the gospel

18:01

of John in

18:04

a kind of safe and cheerful

18:06

environment . It's

18:09

a real game changer in the way you think about

18:11

the mission field . You think , wow , they're out there and

18:14

they would , you know , put

18:17

aside time and energy to

18:21

meet Jesus through the gospel of John . So that's what we're

18:23

doing and , just as a local church pastor

18:25

, I'm very excited about

18:27

the prospects for the year .

18:31

Richard , what about the church , where actually

18:33

it's not going that well in evangelism

18:36

?

18:36

at the moment . A

18:38

couple of thoughts there . I really love

18:40

what our brothers are doing . In

18:42

the first place , they are embodying the

18:44

culture that we hope to nurture across

18:47

all our organisations

18:49

and churches . Firstly , with

18:51

Elliot , it's embodying

18:54

the long game , the

18:56

infinite game , to use cynics . To them , it's

18:59

about world mission , it's about seeing the

19:01

gospel go to the ends of the earth

19:03

and the finite game is the Easter services

19:05

. So it's actually the big thing

19:08

in terms of what Baden is doing

19:10

. He's actually collaborating with a whole bunch of churches

19:12

and what we're seeing

19:15

is being able to collaborate with this

19:17

little tool , really . And

19:19

so for the church that perhaps is less

19:22

organised because of lack of opportunity

19:24

, I want to suggest it's thinking about that

19:26

long game but nurturing

19:29

a culture of evangelism . I've

19:32

got a simple acronym which has actually been

19:34

embodied through what's been said

19:36

, and that is MAPS . It's modelling

19:38

, it's articulating , it's

19:41

praying , setting up a system

19:43

, and the system involves telling lots

19:46

of stories , and I've just

19:48

worked this S in celebrating . So

19:51

it's MAPS , right . So

19:54

how do you do it ? You model it first with your own

19:56

heart . That is , you adore

19:58

Christ . You see the lost who needs to

20:00

be saved . You articulate

20:02

that to the people in front of you , you

20:04

pray about it in your own lives , and if

20:06

this two for two things takes off , then you're just

20:08

praying that with your elders , with all

20:10

your Bible study group leaders , with the people in the pew

20:12

. You're asking to do that . That in and of

20:14

itself should do something , doesn't it ? And

20:17

then the system well , here's a

20:19

low hanging fruit system . Jump

20:21

on board with us , a branding

20:23

thing called Meet Jesus . The

20:26

greatest weapon we

20:28

have outside of prayer is the Word

20:30

of God . Right , it's the sort of the Spirit which

20:32

is the Word of God . Hence , read John's

20:34

Gospel with someone , these five R's that Rory

20:36

was talking about . It's very simple , anybody

20:39

can do it . You don't need a degree , it's

20:41

just you get to someone with someone , you look

20:43

at John 3 with Nicodemus and you ask you

20:46

retell the story together . Then

20:48

you ask how do the characters like Nicodemus

20:50

react to Jesus ? What does

20:52

it reveal about Jesus ? How

20:55

does Nicodemus respond to Jesus ? How

20:57

should I respond to Jesus ? They're the

20:59

five R's . It's really simple , isn't it ? Anybody

21:02

can do that . And so , in terms of a system

21:04

, we can actually have a go

21:06

at doing that , inviting unbelievers to

21:08

actually read the Gospel of John with

21:11

them , and then we just tell stories . The

21:13

last night we had a prayer

21:15

meeting on Zoom . We have a monthly

21:17

prayer meeting . We had over 100 people there . We

21:20

shared stories , lots and lots of stories . I

21:22

wanted Baden to share his story about the collaborating

21:25

with Jesus . Unfortunately he couldn't make it , so I

21:27

told his story right . And then other

21:29

people were telling stories and

21:31

it was people having a go and people failing

21:33

and people crying , but also people having a go

21:35

, and the story after story after story helps people

21:38

to understand . Oh , my goodness , maybe I

21:40

could actually do that . I could actually

21:42

pray for starters , even if I haven't opened

21:44

my mouth about Jesus . I can actually pray

21:46

for starters and make that a two minute thing . I

21:48

can actually have a go at the shopping center

21:51

and bring my tote bag that says

21:53

no Jesus on it and see what happens

21:55

, or something like that . To have a go or say

21:57

God bless you at the counter or something

21:59

like that . To have a go and see

22:01

what happens . So it's people having a go . Last

22:04

story , if I may , is that there's Mark

22:06

Devo , who many of us know . I've had the privilege

22:09

of going to his church . We Baptist

22:11

pastor in Washington .

22:12

DC .

22:14

Baptist pastor in Washington DC In his congregation

22:16

. In the evenings they gather and

22:19

they're just telling stories about their

22:21

evangelistic efforts and , if

22:23

I understand rightly , they're baptizing about

22:26

eight or 10 people each month . Right , and

22:28

he starts to get a twitch if they're not baptizing people

22:30

. And in the Baptist setting with

22:32

Mark Devo , you know they're really

22:35

converted . Right , they're really converted before they're

22:37

baptized , because they really are , and I

22:39

think there's a culture that's going on there of having

22:41

a go . And so for the church that is

22:43

less organized , let's go

22:45

with maps , modeling it and articulating

22:48

praying . Setting up this system and telling up stories

22:50

with one another is my

22:52

suggestion .

22:54

As a since we have this moment

22:56

. I really like the

22:58

idea of justice having

23:00

a common brand , and

23:03

I'm watching in a Facebook group I'm in

23:05

and somebody said my Easter advertising

23:07

has fallen apart . Can you share

23:09

and help me with what Easter

23:12

advertising you've got ? But

23:14

actually , and then a whole lot of people have put up their

23:16

different Easter banners . But

23:19

actually we've all invested energy

23:21

in having a creative department

23:23

that has , to varying degrees of success

23:25

, produced a Easter banner

23:27

and yet

23:31

actually the work of communicating

23:33

the gospel with a banner and a brand at

23:36

our place in Annandale is not that different

23:38

to Norman Hurst and not that different to Sonnoves

23:40

. And you guys have provided

23:42

us with a service of of

23:45

the bare minimum , giving us

23:47

a banner that we can operate together in a united

23:49

way . Do you agree

23:51

, babe ?

23:52

You're not I do . We're immensely thankful for

23:54

the Gospel generosity and vision of

23:56

AFES in this initiative . It's

23:58

blessed us tremendously .

24:00

Yeah , and so I say , let's

24:02

do it again next year .

24:06

We're very open to that . That'll be wonderful , but

24:08

just do keep praying about it . I really

24:10

have seen that in and of itself do

24:12

something to shake the nation in terms of

24:14

raising that temperature , and I'm

24:16

hearing this two-for-two thing happening and you know , last

24:19

night in that prayer meeting it was my

24:21

two-for-two is this , and my two-for-two is this and

24:23

my two-for-two is that , and I just love that language

24:25

and one of our sisters .

24:27

Well , even when we were on the phone the other week , we prayed

24:29

for our two-each . Yeah , yeah , yeah .

24:31

That's right , and if that just becomes

24:33

that culture , then that

24:35

in and of itself is going to ripple , is

24:37

it not ? And if you have , congregations to that .

24:40

The thing that came out of out for me in my

24:42

conversation was that with you was I thought

24:44

ah , if I really want this

24:46

to take hold in my church , then

24:48

every conversation I have with every

24:51

leader about whether I'm

24:53

talking to them about what went wrong with the production

24:55

team last week or whatever I've

24:57

got to be doing those two-for-two prayers as

24:59

part of that conversation .

25:00

Yeah , and it's two minutes , the first two

25:02

minutes of each conversation . Wouldn't that be a great thing to

25:04

do , with people , obviously , who are comfortable to pray

25:06

? That'd be great , okay .

25:09

Head , heart and hand . Where are we getting it wrong

25:11

?

25:13

I watched the episode with Andrew

25:15

Herd and also with Archie Poulos

25:17

and I think they're on the money

25:20

. It's that famous phrase in it if the

25:22

pain of not changing is

25:25

worse than the pain

25:27

of change , you're not going to change . So

25:33

it's the conviction in those areas , but certainly

25:35

in terms of systems that you're setting up , if

25:38

it's just status quo and you know

25:40

that that's painful you're

25:43

not going to do anything unless that pain

25:45

really is worse than the pain of actually

25:47

changing . So I

25:49

think it's all three really . It's

25:51

looking out at the streets and recognizing

25:53

most of these people are heading to hell without

25:56

Christ . It's that burning passion

25:58

and then the conviction

26:00

that will lead to a

26:02

change of some kind . And we hope that

26:04

this Meet Jesus campaign is a

26:06

simple change , beginning

26:09

with prayer . Right , it's not the branding , that's the first

26:11

thing , it's the prayer thing that is part

26:14

of the whole package , and so the

26:16

heart will lead to

26:19

the prayers , and the prayers we

26:21

pray will lead to a simple

26:23

change with things like branding and

26:25

other things .

26:26

Rory Shiner head , heart and hand .

26:28

Yeah , I think that's part of the

26:30

attraction of the whole

26:32

process , that if

26:34

you begin , as Richard says , with

26:37

prayer , I think it

26:40

fosters your heart because you're praying

26:42

for actual people , you're not just praying generically

26:44

, and that does move your heart

26:46

toward God and toward those people and

26:48

it actually when you throw that vision

26:51

out there , I noticed that on

26:53

average , the average Christian

26:55

in the average church really loves Jesus

26:58

and really wants people to know him , and

27:00

so it changes hearts

27:02

but also reveals hearts , and I think it's to

27:05

my mind , it's overwhelmingly a good news story

27:07

that when you give people a plausible

27:11

way of being involved

27:13

in the work of Jesus , in

27:15

evangelism , people rise

27:17

to that and on average they're like

27:19

yeah , cool , great , I love

27:21

Jesus and I love my friends . So I

27:24

think heart is where it needs to

27:26

begin , and I

27:28

think it's one of the most attractive

27:30

things about the campaign is the way it begins with actual

27:34

names of people and bringing them before

27:36

God .

27:37

Pardon .

27:40

Dominique , there is a sense in which there's

27:43

no perfect time for evangelism , and yet

27:45

it's always the perfect time for evangelism . It's

27:48

the sovereignty of God that drives us to

27:50

reach the lost . I think at that moment

27:52

with the Apostle Paul , acts 18 , he's discouraged

27:54

, he's tempted to give up , and the Lord says don't give

27:56

up , keep speaking . I have many people

27:59

in this city and it drives him to continue

28:01

his ministry . And it's that conviction

28:03

in the sovereignty of God that

28:05

we know God has purposed to save

28:07

people that drives us to get busy

28:09

, to try new things and to

28:11

get busy in evangelism . And even

28:14

if you look back to the historic Crusades

28:16

, it's not like they just happened or appeared

28:18

. They found

28:20

themselves surfing the crest of

28:22

a wave that was ordained by the Lord

28:24

in many senses , but as

28:26

a conglomeration of churches they got

28:28

busy , they collaborated , they prayed and

28:31

in time those initiatives built

28:33

into something far bigger . And I see that

28:35

sort of thing and those possibilities happening

28:37

in this sort of initiative

28:40

and tremendously encouraging Haley

28:42

at .

28:43

Temple . A final word I'll

28:45

piggyback off the sovereignty of God and

28:47

say I feel that we struggle

28:50

to trust God in our

28:52

evangelism and

28:54

when we pray , god

28:57

is listening . And I

28:59

have a quick story that there

29:01

was a man who started to pray

29:03

for someone he hadn't seen in

29:06

two years . We're encouraging everyone

29:08

to write down some names and pray about

29:10

them . And he wrote down

29:12

a name , went home and prayed and

29:14

then he had a phone call from that man saying I

29:16

don't know why I chose to call you . I

29:18

just felt like

29:20

I hadn't thought of you in a while and I wanted to call

29:22

you and speak to you . And

29:25

the man who's in our staff team said

29:27

I know why you called me . It's because I prayed

29:29

for you this morning . It was a story

29:31

of coming back to prayer

29:33

everywhere . I keep hearing Richard saying

29:35

this is a movement of prayer . When

29:38

I spoke to you on the phone , all you wanted to talk about was

29:40

prayer , sovereignty of God

29:42

. God listens to prayers and

29:45

when we aim , as

29:47

God does , for people to surrender

29:50

the need to Jesus here's at work

29:52

with us we can take confidence . Let's

29:54

not aim so low that we have

29:56

a goal of just getting a few people to

29:58

an event . Let's aim to

30:00

introduce people to Jesus , opening

30:03

the Bible and letting him run

30:05

off the pages of scriptures and into their lives

30:07

as we pray , trusting God

30:09

will do it .

30:10

Thanks so much for coming in my guests on

30:13

the Pastors' Heart , elliot Temple . He

30:15

is the Mission Pastor at Christchurch

30:17

, st Ives Baden Stace , the Senior Minister

30:19

of St Stephen's Anglican Church

30:21

in Normanhurst . Rory Shiner

30:23

, the Chair of the Gospel Coalition

30:26

Australia and Senior Minister of Providence

30:28

Church in Perth . And Richard Chin

30:30

, national Director of the Australian Fellowship

30:32

of Evangelical Students . My name's Dominic

30:34

Steele . You've been with us on the Pastors' Heart and

30:36

we will look forward to your company next

30:38

Tuesday afternoon .