0:08

It is the pastor's heart and Dominic Steele and resetting

0:11

the Anglican Communion slowly

0:14

, carefully and quite deliberately

0:16

. A new locus of leadership is

0:18

emerging within the global Anglican

0:20

Communion , a locus that is

0:23

significantly intentionally focused

0:25

on Christ and biblical authority

0:27

rather than on London , england

0:29

and the Archbishop of Canterbury . An

0:32

important meeting of leaders of the

0:34

Anglican community the primates of

0:36

the Global South has just wrapped

0:38

up in Cairo . The

0:40

gathering follows the announcement earlier

0:42

in the year on Ash Wednesday , when

0:45

the Global South Primates issued a landmark

0:48

statement saying that the Church of

0:50

England and the Archbishop of Canterbury have

0:52

forfeited their leadership role

0:54

within the global Communion . That

0:57

followed the Archbishop of Canterbury and

0:59

the English House of Bishops turning

1:01

away from the teaching

1:03

of Jesus on sexuality and

1:05

blessing , or proposing the blessing

1:07

of what God calls sin . The

1:10

Global South then committed to meet

1:13

, to consult and to work

1:15

with other Orthodox primates

1:17

in the Anglican Church across the

1:19

nations to reset the Communion

1:21

on its biblical foundation . Well

1:24

, they have made good . The meeting

1:26

in Cairo involved 13

1:28

serving primates and a stack

1:31

of influential observers and

1:33

partners , highly significant

1:35

and surprising . Well , I

1:37

was surprised . Nicky Gumbel , the

1:39

former senior pastor of London's Holy

1:42

Trinity Brompton and the founding father

1:44

of the hugely influential Alpha

1:47

Course and , incidentally , a

1:49

friend of 50 years of the Archbishop

1:51

of Canterbury , justin Welby . They knew

1:53

each other back as far as school days . He

1:56

was present at the gathering in Cairo . Leading

1:59

the meeting was the chair of the Global

2:01

South , archbishop Justin Bhadjarama

2:03

of South Sudan . He is now

2:06

on the line from Cairo . Archbishop

2:08

Justin , there is a stack to talk

2:10

about , but first our pastors

2:13

heart and you were meeting in Egypt

2:15

, right next door to Israel

2:18

, which is well enveloped in war

2:20

, and my friends at

2:22

the gathering say there was deep

2:24

distress over the fighting

2:26

in Israel and particularly when the

2:28

news came through of the airstrike

2:31

on the Anglican hospital came

2:34

through to you while you were meeting .

2:36

Yes , it was really sad

2:38

that we

2:40

were meeting as just

2:43

close to where the

2:45

conflict is

2:48

ongoing and we

2:52

were really

2:55

very sad to

2:57

see and to hear

3:00

all the distractions

3:02

, the sufferings , the

3:05

loss of human life , and

3:07

we prayed and

3:09

for our brother , archbishop

3:11

Osama , and

3:13

also

3:15

prayed for all the affected families

3:18

and individuals in

3:21

both Gaza and

3:24

Israel .

3:25

I'm imagining that some of those at

3:27

the primates meeting had actually been

3:29

to that hospital , seen the hospital

3:31

in the past . Is that right ?

3:34

Yes , that has been an

3:36

Anglican hospital

3:38

which most

3:41

of the primates had visited and

3:43

had seen how the

3:45

hospital was serving the communities

3:48

there . So we were

3:50

all sad to hear

3:52

it has been brought down

3:54

.

3:55

Now you have just finished the meeting in Cairo

3:57

with the primates of the Global South , and

3:59

I know there'll be people watching , listening

4:02

, who haven't been following these

4:04

issues closely , and so I'm just

4:06

wondering if the way might be to go

4:08

right back to Ash Wednesday and

4:10

your statement then that the

4:13

Church of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury

4:15

have forfeited their leadership

4:17

in the Global Anglican Communion

4:19

.

4:20

It is sad and to

4:22

hear that the Church

4:25

of England has continued to

4:28

go in

4:31

a way which is contrary to

4:33

biblical teaching . We

4:35

lament with tears to

4:39

hear all what is happening to

4:41

the historic Mother Church

4:44

of the Communion and

4:46

we continue to pray for her

4:48

restoration .

4:50

Have you had any interaction yourself

4:52

with Archbishop Welby since

4:55

the Ash Wednesday statement ?

4:57

Yes , I have met him several

5:00

times as a brother and

5:03

I continue to pray

5:05

for him .

5:06

But he hasn't given

5:08

you any sense of repentance . I

5:11

mean , some of my friends have said they have called him to

5:13

repent but he's refused to do so .

5:15

We have not seen any signs

5:18

of repentance , but

5:20

we are seeing signs of

5:22

moving forward with their

5:24

agenda . So

5:26

we continue in prayers

5:29

that the good Lord , at

5:31

the right time , may touch their

5:33

heart and they may come back

5:35

to the truth of the gospel

5:37

.

5:38

These signs that you refer to of moving

5:41

forward with their agenda ? It

5:43

was just a couple of weeks ago that the House

5:45

of Bishops of the Church of England put

5:47

out a statement saying they're going

5:50

to move forward with these prayers to bless

5:52

homosexual marriage and

5:54

that , despite all

5:56

the criticism and unrest , they

5:59

do seem to be quite resolute

6:01

.

6:02

It is such a sad

6:05

situation . Bishops

6:08

are supposed to be the

6:10

ones guarding the

6:12

faith , but

6:14

unfortunately , we

6:17

are seeing that the bishops most

6:20

of the bishops in the Church of England have

6:23

gone in a revisionist direction

6:26

and making

6:29

all what they are doing

6:31

now , thinking that they are still

6:34

serving the Church , which is

6:36

not so

6:39

the only thing we do as leaders

6:41

of the Global South . We

6:43

continue in prayers for

6:45

them , but our joy is

6:47

that , out of all what

6:50

is happening , we can see

6:52

that many Orthodox

6:55

faithfuls are standing

6:58

firm and on

7:00

the biblical truth , which gives

7:02

us joy , and we

7:05

are also happy that

7:07

some good number of bishops

7:09

in the Church of England have

7:12

actually stood firm

7:15

and discerned

7:19

themselves from what is going

7:21

on . So we will continue to

7:23

uphold them in our prayers

7:25

and we stand with them

7:28

.

7:29

Yes , it is encouraging these 12

7:31

faithful bishops in the English

7:34

Church who have put out this release dissenting

7:37

from the rest of the English House of Bishops

7:39

. What was the reaction

7:41

at the Global South meeting when

7:43

you discussed the statement

7:45

of the 12 faithful English bishops

7:47

critiquing the main House

7:49

of Bishops position ?

7:51

Actually , we do know that

7:53

within the communion

7:55

there is autonomy for each

7:57

province , but

8:00

we lamented

8:03

in tears to

8:05

see that a place which has been

8:07

central in taking the

8:09

Gospel around the world has

8:12

now gone the other way around

8:14

. So that made

8:16

us to cry to the Lord

8:19

for His fresh

8:21

anointing , fresh touching to

8:24

the bishops in the Church

8:26

of England that they may

8:29

come back to the truth .

8:32

Now the statement , the communique that

8:34

you have just released in Cairo has

8:37

a list of primates who are present

8:39

and have signed , and it's encouraging to see

8:41

Nigeria joining with you , and I was encouraged

8:43

to see Archbishop Albert

8:45

Sharma of the Church of the Province of

8:47

Central Africa with you there as well

8:49

. But the biggest surprise

8:52

for me was the presence of the founder

8:54

of the influential Alpha Course

8:56

, nikki Gumbel . He

8:59

was there with you . He has now

9:01

publicly joined you in endorsing

9:03

the communique and consequently

9:05

your Ash Wednesday statement and

9:07

the Gafkong Kigali communique

9:10

and , of course , the Lambeth 110 Resolution

9:12

.

9:14

So at the meeting , what

9:16

we did actually ? We

9:18

reaffirmed our

9:25

adherence to

9:27

Lambeth Resolution 110

9:30

in full , both in moral teaching

9:32

and postural care , and

9:35

secondly , we also

9:38

reaffirmed our

9:41

Ash Wednesday statement . So

9:44

, nikki Gumbel though

9:46

, he is for the unity

9:48

of the church and

9:51

that was what he was expressing , but

9:53

as Orthodox leaders , we

9:56

reassured him and all

9:58

our Orthodox brothers

10:01

and sisters in the Church of

10:03

England that we will not leave

10:05

them alone . We will continue

10:08

to stand with them and

10:11

they should also know that . One

10:13

thing which is clear is

10:16

that since then

10:19

the demographic has changed and

10:21

in the 1990s

10:25

it used to be that almost 80%

10:28

of the Anglican communion was in England

10:31

, but today about

10:33

75% of Anglicans

10:36

are estimated to be in the

10:38

global South countries . So

10:42

we are now in the middle of the war , and

10:45

we are now in the middle of the war . So

10:49

we also see that

10:51

the theology of many bishops in

10:53

the Church of England has also

10:56

changed towards revisionism . So

10:59

there is no doubt we

11:01

need new schemes for

11:04

a new reality within

11:06

our communion . So we

11:09

reassured Nikki Gumbel we

11:11

are not moving away , we are the communion

11:14

. So he

11:17

should only join us in prayers for

11:20

part of the communion

11:22

in the global North , not

11:24

to continue going astray

11:26

. They should come back to the communion

11:29

.

11:31

How did the relationship between

11:33

Global South and Nikki Gumbel and

11:35

Holy Trinity Brompton come

11:38

about such that he was there ?

11:40

First we welcomed him as a brother

11:42

in our

11:45

fellowship , in our midst , and

11:48

together with him we

11:50

reaffirmed

11:53

our Ash Wencesley statement

11:55

and also we committed

11:58

ourselves to the GSFA

12:00

Covenantal Structure as

12:03

the only means to

12:06

bring together all Orthodox

12:08

provinces

12:10

within the Anglican

12:13

communion . So him

12:15

hearing that he was a bit worried that

12:18

maybe the Church is going

12:20

to separate , of which we

12:23

assured him . There is no separation

12:25

, there is only strong

12:28

stand for the biblical truth in

12:32

our communion , which we are

12:34

taking as the Global South . So

12:38

the other stream of

12:40

revisionism is

12:42

what we are all lamenting and

12:44

praying and waiting for genuine

12:46

repentance . Once

12:48

that is done , the communion

12:51

will be together . Once

12:53

that is not done , we will still

12:55

keep our distance and continue

12:58

in prayers .

13:00

Nikki Gumbel has been a friend

13:02

of the Archbishop of Canterbury , Justin

13:04

Welby , since high school . I

13:07

can't imagine that Justin

13:09

Welby would be pleased that Nikki

13:12

Gumbel came to the Global South Primates

13:14

Meeting in Cairo and I can't

13:16

imagine that he would have come to your Global

13:19

South Primates Meeting unless he was fairly

13:21

grumpy with the direction that Justin Welby

13:24

is taking the Church of England at the moment . Is

13:27

that a right read of the situation ?

13:30

Could be . I know Nicky

13:32

Gamble is a

13:34

biblical teacher . He teaches

13:37

the biblical faith and

13:39

what we are doing in the Global

13:41

South is the same thing , standing

13:44

on the truth . So

13:46

he thought wise

13:48

to join us , to listen to us , so

13:51

which he did , and he was happy and

13:55

our hearts were all refreshed

13:57

and filled with joy to see

13:59

Orthodox groupings within the Anglican

14:02

communion coming together

14:04

. And his feeling

14:06

for his friend is

14:09

what . I don't know he

14:11

might be the right person to express

14:13

his feeling after the fellowship

14:17

in the Global South's Fellowship

14:19

of Anglicans .

14:21

It would seem to me

14:23

that if London's Holy Trinity

14:26

, brompton and their network

14:28

, and St Helen's Bishopsgate and all

14:30

souls and those networked with

14:32

all those associated churches and

14:35

the wider evangelical movement , if they're

14:37

all expressing dissatisfaction

14:39

with the direction that the Bishop

14:42

of London and the Archbishop of Canterbury

14:44

are taking things well , I

14:46

mean I'm thinking separate from

14:48

the issue of what is pleasing to Almighty God

14:51

I can't

14:53

see how they think the Anglican church

14:55

in London is going to hold together it

14:58

is a hard situation , but

15:01

we continue in prayers for

15:04

God's will to be done

15:06

.

15:07

So the battle is

15:09

a spiritual , so which

15:12

we continue in

15:14

prayers for God's spirit to work

15:16

, because it is

15:18

really unfortunate

15:20

. My dear brother

15:23

, archbishop Welby , is

15:25

a person I respect

15:28

and he teaches , preaches

15:30

, the gospel so

15:33

well , but I don't know why

15:35

and what has happened that

15:38

he's going this way . Maybe

15:41

the devil is at work . We will continue

15:43

in prayers for him

15:45

and for our brothers

15:47

and sister bishops in the Church

15:49

of England . And

15:52

it is sad to see

15:54

that the lay people whom

15:57

we were supposed to lead

15:59

to maturity in the faith

16:01

are then now

16:04

the ones rebuking

16:06

and challenging us as bishops

16:08

. This is shameful . This

16:11

shows there is something

16:13

wrong with our leadership which we

16:15

need to correct . It

16:18

is not too late . The gospel says

16:20

repent and believe . So

16:23

that's the only way to say sorry

16:25

, we have come back .

16:29

Do you get any glimmers of hope

16:31

from any other bishops in the English

16:33

Church apart from this faithful

16:35

12 who've signed the statement dissenting

16:38

from the rest of the house of bishops ?

16:45

yes , the number is not only

16:47

five , the number is going

16:49

up . It has reached 11

16:52

or 12 , which we

16:54

are thankful , and we continue in prayer

16:57

that , one by one , all

16:59

the bishops might come back

17:01

to stand on the

17:03

biblical truth . There is great hope

17:05

and that's why the

17:08

Orthodox leaders meeting

17:11

and we're promised to annually meet

17:13

and pray together for our

17:15

beloved communion .

17:18

I'm just reflecting on

17:20

the resetting of the Anglican communion

17:22

and the trajectory that you announced

17:25

back on Ash Wednesday and just

17:27

starting to see this play out and I'm just reading

17:29

between the lines here . But I wanted to ask you if

17:31

in the old school Canterbury communion

17:33

there were four instruments of unity the , the

17:36

Primates Council , the Anglican Consultative

17:39

Council , the Lambeth Conference and

17:41

the role of the Archbishop of Canterbury ? I'm

17:43

just thinking about how this is playing

17:45

out . Would it be right to see that , whereas

17:47

in the Canterbury

17:50

communion you had the Primates Council , in

17:52

the reset we now have the , the Global

17:54

South Primates Council , and

17:56

if in the old school Canterbury communion you had

17:58

the Anglican Consultative Council and

18:01

now we have in June next year

18:03

the Global South Assembly , that

18:05

we will have pretty much the same

18:07

look and feel ? And then if in the

18:09

old school Canterbury communion there was a Lambeth

18:12

Conference , you're putting together a , a Council

18:14

of Bishops meeting that's going to meet

18:16

regularly , and and then your

18:19

role as chair of the Global

18:21

South or the chair of the Global South

18:23

under the Global South Covenant

18:25

structure . That would potentially

18:28

mean that the person in Canterbury

18:30

is largely irrelevant . And

18:34

is it the case , little by little , piece

18:36

by piece , that we're shifting

18:39

away from authority in London to

18:41

this new locus of unity .

18:45

Yes , my brother , as I

18:47

told you earlier , things

18:50

are changing . The

18:52

communion instruments

18:55

were set

18:57

at a time which

19:00

now we

19:02

are bypassing it With

19:04

now the growing of revisionism

19:07

within the communion

19:10

. The global south's covenantal

19:13

structure is the right thing

19:15

now to follow , because

19:17

it binds us together in

19:20

what we believe and

19:23

it is no longer just one

19:25

person , but there's the

19:27

primates coming together

19:29

to decide and to protect

19:32

and to be accountable for

19:34

one another , and

19:36

there is a space for discipline

19:39

. Whoever goes

19:42

astray and comes

19:45

out of the biblical

19:47

faith , we have the right to

19:49

isolate him or

19:51

her until there is repentance

19:54

. So , for all orthodox

19:56

Anglicanism , the

19:59

global south's structure is the

20:01

only way to move forward . Unless

20:04

those who are in revisionist

20:07

provinces , they will be the

20:09

one to continue with the

20:11

communion instruments .

20:15

So we would . I mean , it sounds like you're hoping

20:17

that more and more people would join up around

20:20

these new loci of unity that you're

20:22

talking about here .

20:24

That is our prayer and that's what

20:26

we are seeing In

20:29

our fellowship

20:31

here in Cairo . We were

20:34

overjoyed to see

20:36

all orthodox groupings

20:38

from around the world . They

20:40

are representative , attended from

20:43

the states

20:46

in America , from Europe

20:48

, from the Church of England , from

20:52

all over . They attended

20:54

, which gives a great joy and

20:57

hope and we know that there is

20:59

a future still for our beloved

21:01

communion .

21:04

As we move from here with this new

21:06

loci of authority , it sounds

21:08

like the assembly that you've called in June

21:11

for Cairo is going to play a key

21:13

role , and it sounds like

21:15

it's going to have real decision making power .

21:18

I think the assembly

21:21

in June will be

21:23

very historic because it will

21:25

be like a synod , the first of

21:27

its kind in the Anglican

21:30

communion that decides

21:32

, gives room for all orthodox

21:35

provinces to decide

21:37

and to agree

21:39

on issues and to plan

21:41

what to do and to elect

21:44

boards and

21:46

councils . That discusses

21:49

issues and

21:51

encourages and gives guidance

21:53

to all orthodox within the

21:55

Anglican communion .

21:58

It sounds very significant

22:00

, especially when one thinks that the Canterbury

22:03

instruments have really failed

22:05

to well express

22:07

gospel Bible based leadership .

22:10

Sure , because we are

22:12

seeing the old instruments . They

22:15

no longer can work at this time where

22:18

the revisionists are trying so

22:21

hard to make their voice heard

22:23

. So

22:25

there is no hope in that and

22:28

they are . All

22:30

effort is trying to please the world

22:33

, not to go following

22:36

the biblical teaching . So it is

22:38

so sad . And to rescue

22:40

the communion or to help

22:42

the communion , we have to come

22:44

with something that

22:47

can strengthen the orthodox

22:49

provinces and

22:51

groupings within the Anglican

22:53

communion . It is actually a rescue

22:56

to our beloved communion .

22:58

And so I'm just looking through the four different

23:00

locusts of unity the

23:03

new Global South Primates Conference

23:05

that's going to meet annually , yes , and

23:07

the June Assembly will have the look

23:10

and feel of the old Anglican Consultative

23:12

Council , except it's actually going to make

23:14

real decisions .

23:16

Sure , we will not touch the

23:19

old Anglican communion , because

23:21

that is something which was said and

23:23

that is something that the revisionists

23:26

are happy with it . We will

23:28

just plan our own way how

23:30

we move forward . And

23:32

within the structure , there is

23:34

the Primates Council , and

23:36

then there will be a board for

23:39

the House of Bishops who decides , and

23:42

then there will be boards

23:44

and commissions for different programs

23:48

of the fellowship

23:51

to be carried out , to

23:53

take the gospel out to

23:55

the ruined world

23:57

which is turned by sin . So

24:00

that is basically what

24:02

will happen in the Assembly

24:04

, but we are not there

24:06

to discuss the instrument

24:09

of the communion . No , we

24:11

are no longer going to discuss that . And

24:13

then we have nothing to do because

24:15

there are people who love it , so they

24:18

go with it . They

24:20

go with the old wineskin while

24:23

we go with the new wineskin .

24:25

Now following on from the Gaffcon

24:28

conference in Kigali , I

24:30

noticed that Archbishop Welby

24:32

called a meeting of Primates in Rome next

24:34

year . I'm taking it

24:37

you're saying that's an old

24:39

wine skins meeting and you

24:41

won't be engaging with that .

24:44

Yeah , I know the language being

24:47

said is let's

24:49

forget our differences . Let's

24:51

work together , though

24:54

we are working in sin

24:56

, but let's embrace

24:58

the sin . The main purpose is working

25:00

together , which is not right . Sin

25:03

is sin and we cannot work

25:05

together in sin . We

25:07

work together as repentant

25:09

people , who people

25:12

who have been renewed

25:14

by the gospel , that's

25:16

, the people who work together in

25:19

the light of God's work . So

25:22

unity is in the gospel

25:24

, not I continue

25:27

sinning and you just

25:29

tell me continue in your sin , but

25:32

let's work together . That will not

25:34

come .

25:36

I was encouraged to hear about the setting

25:38

up of the new Global South Bishops

25:40

Training Institute , and I

25:43

might have this wrong , but it felt to me like the

25:45

Gafcon Bishops Training Institute has

25:47

paused , or I'm certainly

25:49

not hearing about it at the moment , but you

25:52

in the Global South have taken up the initiative

25:55

to get the Bishops Training Institute going

25:57

again .

26:01

There is no conflict between Global

26:04

South and Gafcon . Gafcon

26:08

is an Orthodox grouping

26:10

and Global South is an Orthodox

26:12

grouping . There is no conflict

26:14

in what we are doing at all

26:17

. So the

26:19

GSFA did announce

26:22

that there are many bishops

26:24

who have been consecrated

26:26

and the needs to be trained

26:29

, needs to be oriented , and

26:31

we are going to do that to

26:33

enable the bishops understand

26:36

their role

26:38

as bishops , why they've

26:40

been consecrated as bishops . So

26:42

we are going to do that and after

26:44

the General Assembly we

26:46

will sit together how this

26:49

will go forward . So

26:52

we are not taking anything

26:54

from each other and we are not competing

26:56

. So our main objective

26:58

is one to reset

27:01

our Anglican communion on

27:03

its biblical truth .

27:06

So , as you take these initiatives

27:08

, it is starting to look like there's a positive

27:11

future for Orthodox Anglican

27:13

leaders .

27:15

There is a bright future through

27:17

the GSFA Covenantal

27:19

Structure . That

27:22

is the hope and that is

27:25

the main

27:27

item of unity for

27:30

all Orthodox groupings

27:33

and the provinces within

27:36

the communion . That's the hope we

27:38

have .

27:40

Archbishop Bhadiorama , thank you

27:42

very much for talking to us on the

27:44

pastor's heart today .

27:48

Thank you so much for giving your time

27:50

to me . We pray for you

27:52

. That God blesses you and equips

27:54

you to raise the

27:58

voice of the gospel , white

28:01

and loud , to be heard in

28:03

the whole world . Thank you .

28:06

That is Archbishop Bhadiorama . He is

28:08

the Prime of South Sudan and

28:11

the Chair of the Global South Movement

28:13

of Anglicans , and look

28:15

that is so significant . It

28:18

is really clear that they have given up on

28:20

Canterbury over the failure to

28:22

follow Jesus

28:24

Christ and , little by little

28:26

but inexorably , we are

28:28

seeing the resetting of the Anglican

28:31

communion around the new trellises

28:33

that are being put in place and

28:35

very interesting that

28:38

Nikki Gumbel was present at the meeting

28:41

. The Global South

28:43

Leaders meeting . The Alpha Movement seems

28:45

to have sidestepped this controversy up

28:48

until now , but I think

28:50

in endorsing this communique , nikki

28:52

Gumbel is saying I'm on the side of the gospel , I'm

28:54

on the side of Jesus , I'm on the side of faithful

28:57

Christianity and not on

28:59

the side of the trajectory

29:01

that his friend of five decades

29:04

is taking us . We want to

29:06

pray for Nikki Gumbel that

29:08

he might be able to persuade Justin Welby

29:10

and those others over whom he

29:12

has influenced , like the Bishop of London

29:14

, to repent . Thank you for

29:16

joining us on the pastor's heart today

29:19

. This is Dominic Steele , and we will

29:21

be back next Tuesday afternoon .