0:08

It is the pastor's heart , and Dominic Steele , thanks for

0:10

joining us today . Improving our application

0:13

with Paul Grimond . And we

0:15

have a Problem . Speaking of theological

0:17

college students in their final year preaching

0:20

assignments , a lecturer said it's

0:22

like they got their exegesis spot on

0:24

, closed their eyes , fired

0:26

an arrow randomly into the air , opened

0:29

their eyes to see where it landed

0:31

and said that looks like a

0:33

good place to do application . And

0:36

look , there's a question . If that's what

0:38

they're saying about the students , what

0:40

about those of us who've graduated

0:42

from theological college and who are modeling

0:45

to the students what to do ? There

0:47

is a nervousness in the

0:49

air , though , about application , and

0:52

Paul Grimond is Dean of Students at

0:54

Sydney's Moore Theological College . He's

0:56

just completed a Doctor of Ministry

0:59

assignment on improving application

1:01

in preaching Paul . That is a devastating

1:03

quote , but it does ring true .

1:07

Yeah , it's slightly sad in some ways

1:10

, isn't it ? And I want to say it's not

1:12

across the board , it's not like every single student is

1:14

like that .

1:15

Oh , that sounds like the way you quoted it .

1:17

There's a range of things , but I do think

1:19

it represents something that kind of comes

1:21

from our tribal school , if you

1:23

want to kind of put it like that , that where we're very , very

1:25

keen to get the Bible dead on

1:27

and dead right and there's a real

1:29

nervousness about doing application . So

1:32

we spend lots of that time on exegesis . We spend

1:34

lots of time being able to communicate this passage

1:37

really accurately to people and get it right .

1:39

And the commentaries are really big on getting the exegesis

1:41

right . Absolutely , yeah , yeah .

1:43

And lots of the process of learning at college is

1:45

really about that end . And please , you

1:47

know , I want to say up front I'm really

1:49

for that . I think that that's a great

1:51

thing . I think that the

1:53

argument in my thesis is that just that , if

1:56

that's where you stop , you haven't

1:58

tried to do what God's actually trying to do in

2:00

scripture and I think what God calls us to

2:02

as preachers and pastors and people .

2:04

What's the difference between a lecture in theological

2:07

college and a sermon in church

2:09

? Is it the difference between

2:11

that ? Well , like .

2:13

I do wonder about that , or I think

2:15

it depends what subject you're in and what the lecture looks

2:17

like and etc . But

2:19

I think we've inherited

2:21

a background educationally where

2:23

theory is much more important

2:25

than practice . So historically

2:28

and this isn't just theological colleges , I think

2:30

this is our whole kind of Western education system

2:32

Theory is pure and neat

2:34

and it's the thing that you get right . And if you get it right

2:36

, everything else will follow , because everything else

2:38

is downstream from that , so to speak . I

2:41

think one of the things that I'm arguing for in the thesis is

2:43

that the skill of moving from comprehending

2:46

your theory to working out what that

2:48

means in the concrete realities of people's

2:50

lives is another separate set of skills

2:52

. But if you don't practice , it isn't something

2:54

that you end up being able to do very well at

2:57

all .

2:59

You pick a couple of conversation partners , one

3:01

of whom friend of mine , and he

3:04

describes a week where

3:06

I ran out of time , I

3:08

didn't have enough time to do the hard work in the text

3:10

and I ended up well

3:12

preaching

3:14

a talk that had lots more application

3:17

at the end . And then at the end

3:19

people said oh , that was great , you spoke

3:22

to my life . And he said I'm

3:24

then off in a tussle of should

3:27

I go back to where I do all the hard work

3:29

or should I stay just landing

3:32

in people's lives ? And as

3:34

I read his

3:36

article I thought actually he

3:39

does reflect my

3:41

tribe of thinking .

3:42

Yeah , I think we feel deep tension

3:44

, don't we ? So we

3:47

understand that . I really want

3:49

to know what Paul said to the Galatians

3:51

, for example . So I don't want to just

3:53

and that's part of the problem with the kind of closing

3:56

my eyes and peeing the arrow off in the space

3:58

. I've got the exegesis right . I don't quite know how

4:00

that relates to reality . Let me find somewhere and

4:02

kind of rumble around . But

4:04

if what the Bible says about

4:07

what God is doing through scripture , which is

4:09

actually transforming me , he's

4:11

saving me , he's transforming my heart

4:13

and mind , he's actually making me someone

4:15

who lives their whole life wholeheartedly

4:18

under the Lordship of Jesus , then

4:20

we ought to actually expect scripture to

4:22

kind of modify our behavior and

4:25

our beliefs and our affections . It's poking

4:27

us in all of those places all the time

4:29

to change and transform people

4:31

. And if we're thinking about

4:34

how does that change take place ? What

4:36

happens there ? Certainly God's spirit

4:39

is at work , but the truth

4:41

of scripture is being worked into our experience

4:44

and in our way of understanding the world . And

4:46

that means actually engaging with how

4:48

these truths from the Bible affect

4:50

my day-to-day experience as a

4:52

lawyer or a schoolteacher or

4:54

as a parent or

4:56

one of any other thousand things that we

4:59

can name in that space .

5:01

How ? What

5:03

sort of application , then , are you

5:05

arguing we should engage in ?

5:08

Well , if I want to go back one step , dominic

5:10

. I think I would say that my argument is really

5:12

that the Bible what's

5:14

the Bible doing , the

5:17

truth about who God is and who Jesus

5:19

is is the same and it's constant all the way

5:21

through scripture . But the

5:23

apostle Paul didn't write one

5:25

letter with 37 interesting points

5:27

about God and Jesus and kind of get the scribes to

5:29

work because he didn't have a photocopier and

5:31

kind of send that to the church . Or throughout he

5:34

addresses different churches in

5:36

different circumstances of life , saying

5:39

if you were someone who loved Jesus

5:41

and had been saved by him and were a follower

5:44

of him , these are the kinds of

5:46

theological truths you'd grab for in this space

5:48

in order to respond to these kinds

5:50

of issues . So , dominic , in a sense the

5:52

Bible is kind of apprenticing you to

5:56

work out what are the intuitions

5:58

and beliefs and affections and practices

6:01

that characterize the Christian life

6:03

, and it does it by putting you in different

6:05

concrete contexts and

6:07

then inviting you to think about how those things interrelate

6:10

and form a set of beliefs

6:12

and affections and

6:15

behaviors that are genuinely Christian

6:17

, that genuinely live out your life under the Lordship

6:19

of .

6:19

Jesus , and so I think how

6:22

you've argued that . Where's that in the Bible ?

6:25

Well , that's a great question For

6:28

me . There's a couple of passages that were really significant

6:30

for me in writing the thesis . So I find Titus

6:33

II really fascinating in

6:35

that he says teach what's in accord with sound doctrine there

6:38

in chapter 2 , verse 1 . And then the whole rest of

6:40

the chapter . I'm theologically

6:42

trained . I'm thinking what's in accord with sound doctrine

6:44

? Atonement , ecclesiology

6:47

, you know , etc

6:49

. Etc . Etc , etc . And he goes well

6:52

, this is what you should say to the older men about how they

6:54

live . And this is what you should say to the younger men and these

6:56

women . This is what you should say to them . And

6:59

the slaves ? This is how you should talk to the slaves . And

7:01

it's all , and it doesn't finish with the last line teach what's

7:03

in accord with sound doctrine .

7:04

again , he kind of pops and tails it .

7:05

He basically comes back to that at the very end

7:07

. And then at the end of the section

7:09

, in verses 11 to 14 , there's a beautiful

7:11

description of the gospel , right when

7:14

he says the grace of God has appeared and it teaches us

7:16

to say no to ungodliness

7:18

and yes to righteousness . But

7:20

right at the end there's that little , because

7:23

you're waiting for Jesus . So Jesus

7:26

has come . Once he's coming back

7:28

again , you're living as his servant . But

7:30

what did he come to do ? He came basically

7:33

the passage says two things to redeem

7:35

you from lawlessness and

7:37

to purify you to do good works . And

7:41

so when Paul teaches people

7:43

about who Jesus is and what his lordship

7:45

means , that's never divorced

7:47

from the shape of the Christian life . Knowing

7:50

what to do as a follower of Jesus isn't just

7:53

automatic . It's not like we all know exactly what it's

7:55

supposed to be and you just find Jesus

7:57

and now , of course , you just do the right thing . But

8:00

there is a reshaping of our hearts and minds

8:02

and affections . And if you think

8:04

about the New Testament , right , you think about how often

8:06

Paul gives you those lists of virtues and vices

8:08

or he gets into . You know , in Ephesians

8:10

four and five , don't

8:13

lie . Let the thief work with his hands

8:15

and give to his neighbor . The concrete

8:17

reality of that is part

8:19

of experiencing and seeing the goodness

8:21

of what it means to live under the Lordship of Jesus .

8:26

Okay , so how

8:31

do I do it ? I

8:34

mean as you say that I think right , okay , I

8:36

know what to do if I'm teaching an application in

8:40

Titus two . I've got that clear

8:42

Sure . But my personal Bible reading

8:45

this year has been Jeremiah , and

8:47

I'm up to chapter 25 in

8:49

Jeremiah and I'm feeling pretty

8:52

beaten about in Jeremiah

8:54

. Yeah absolutely , and I

8:56

am sort of and I

8:58

do a little five minute video every morning

9:00

and

9:02

I've been saying the same thing

9:04

in terms of application for pretty

9:07

much 25 chapters

9:09

. And I'm thinking

9:11

, wow , I'm glad our church is not

9:13

teaching through Jeremiah 25

9:15

weeks in a row at the moment

9:17

. So I'm a little

9:19

bit stuck .

9:20

I have a friend who I believe at the end of his

9:22

series on Jeremiah , his father said to him that

9:25

was great , Don't do it again .

9:30

Well , I have worked out . I did work out . I needed

9:32

to take a break from Jeremiah , just for my own sake

9:34

, yeah .

9:35

I mean part of me wonders whether we need to

9:37

. We need to be more sensitive to literature

9:39

. It's not just every

9:41

book . I'm going to do every chapter of every book . There

9:43

are sections , there are chunks , there are ways

9:46

that the scripture works together to shape

9:48

beliefs and affections and behavior . So partly

9:50

it's in something like one or two kings

9:52

, for example . I think the repetition of

9:55

the evil and stuff is part of what creates

9:57

the purpose and function of what's going on

9:59

. But I think one of

10:02

the things that I invite people to be thinking

10:04

about when one

10:06

of my big observations about people when

10:08

they first start leading Bible study or preaching

10:10

is that basically , you ask them

10:13

, what are you going to teach from this passage ? And they give you

10:15

a summary of the content of your passage

10:17

. Right , and we're very good at that

10:19

. Even our like first year university

10:21

students when I trained them to how to lead a Bible

10:23

study group , they could summarize the content of the passage

10:26

. But the author didn't

10:28

write that content in order to share content

10:30

. The author wrote that content

10:33

in order to persuade you about something , to

10:35

challenge disbelief

10:37

, to encourage belief , to

10:39

challenge a certain behavior , to ask you to repent

10:41

and put off the old self to put on the new self he

10:44

was trying to form in you , a person who loved

10:46

what God loves and hate what God hates

10:48

, and with a desire to actually live

10:51

that out and put it into practice in your life . And

10:53

so , when we come to even engaging with the text

10:56

, the question that we're trying

10:58

to ask is not just what are the contents of

11:00

this passage , but what was the author

11:02

trying to do with the content of this

11:04

passage in the hearts and minds of the people who

11:06

were hearing it ?

11:07

So I'm just thinking to Timothy 3

11:09

is to attribute

11:11

correct and try and absolutely and make

11:14

wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus

11:16

. But are you saying that

11:18

I'm doing too much ? Make wise for salvation

11:21

through faith in Christ Jesus and not enough to attribute

11:23

correct train .

11:24

I mean , I do think that that is our tendency

11:27

.

11:29

And that you need to come to .

11:30

Christ today . Yeah , that's right . I mean

11:33

, peter Jensen

11:35

is lovely when you're biased as a supporter , aren't

11:39

they ? But by your friends . But Peter kind of says

11:41

there is a thing that we do with biblical theology

11:43

, for example , where we say , basically everything

11:45

in the Old Testament is about the , is about forgiveness

11:48

, it's about the atonement , and so , whatever it's

11:50

saying , you need to be forgiven today . Now

11:53

, there is a deep truth to that . And

11:55

if that's not the heartbeat because I think

11:57

that lies behind the nature of grace , right

12:00

, so if that's not the heartbeat of what we're

12:02

doing , then we're missing something . But

12:05

Paul very , very regularly

12:08

wants to say to people , as someone

12:10

who has experienced the grace of Jesus

12:12

put off the old self , put

12:15

on the new self . So there's this lovely

12:17

little , these two little words that I learned from

12:19

a guy called Dryden . I'm in a lovely

12:21

little book called the Hermione of Wisdom , where

12:23

he talks about the Bible , is trying to make the Christian life

12:26

intelligible and desirable , he's

12:28

trying to make it make sense and he's

12:31

trying to help your heart to long for that . There is something

12:33

good about living with Jesus as

12:35

Lord . So as I teach

12:37

you this passage , what

12:39

I want to do is to show you how the truths

12:42

in this passage relate to each other . To

12:44

help you to change your belief , to

12:47

reinforce something that you have believed or to believe

12:49

something different from what you believed , I want to challenge

12:52

you to think about . How does this match

12:54

up with what you're confronted with in the world every

12:56

day , and how do you cling to this

12:58

when this is what the people around about you are saying

13:00

this is true and this is what's going to be helpful .

13:03

Show me where's that word . I mean that desire

13:06

word . What's the verse that's in ?

13:09

Well , again , I wouldn't

13:11

say it's in a particular verse , I mean it

13:14

feels right to me .

13:14

I just want to .

13:15

Well . So I think it's for me

13:17

the place . If you go and read some of the Puritans

13:20

, what they're saying is

13:22

the ministry of the word is not just

13:24

to the mind , you're not just trying to give someone cognition

13:26

, you're trying to shape someone's heart

13:28

. So

13:31

, very interestingly , when you look at the lists of virtues

13:33

and vices , paul doesn't say look

13:35

, there are these evil things jealousy , rage

13:38

, malice , etc . Etc . Fix

13:40

those up by thinking nice thoughts or

13:43

just change your mind , but you're

13:45

supposed to replace those things with

13:47

love and kindness and generosity

13:50

and compassion or whatever is

13:52

lovely , whatever is .

13:53

Think about those things Absolutely .

13:56

So I mean there's a few key things

13:58

there . That is , the Bible never separates

14:00

your mind and heart in the way that we do

14:02

in our culture . Your heart

14:04

thinks and feels it

14:07

is either rebellious or it's turned towards God

14:09

, and your heart is transformed

14:11

as you actually take on the truth and

14:13

appropriate it and live it out . You

14:15

know , james , the person who only hears

14:18

and walks away and does nothing with it . That's

14:20

foolishness , that's complete foolishness .

14:23

The line in 2 , timothy 3

14:25

, teacher rebuke , correct and train , and

14:27

then the preachers to do the same

14:30

thing .

14:30

Yes , in fact , to 4 . To 4 , verses 1 and

14:32

2 . So , on the very back of having

14:35

said to Timothy you're living in the last days

14:37

, you have the Word

14:39

of God which does all of these things , and

14:41

then he says there's this incredible

14:44

, the power of it in light

14:46

of the coming judgment and Jesus' return

14:48

. And what should you do ? Reach the Word

14:50

that famous in season and out of season . Then

14:53

he uses three words that map almost

14:55

directly onto the four words that he's used to describe

14:57

scripture before Timothy

14:59

, in relationship with people , do

15:01

what the Bible is doing with them . And

15:04

what that means is that when I come to preach , it's not me saying

15:06

, oh , this , is God saying this . I'm not saying

15:08

this . Actually , the biblical

15:11

position of the pastor is I am saying this because

15:13

God is saying this . So I'm going

15:15

to exhort you , I'm going to challenge you , I'm

15:17

going to invite you to be delighted . I'm

15:20

going to speak things

15:22

that are difficult . I'm going to do that in relationship

15:24

with you , with the scriptures open , but

15:26

there's not a gap , there's not . I teach you the Bible and

15:29

then the Spirit magically does something that

15:31

kind of translates that into your reality . But

15:34

I'm supposed to preach that truth in a way

15:36

that convicts , engages , persuades

15:38

, shapes , remolds . You

15:40

always , always dependent

15:43

upon God at work in that space

15:45

. But that must

15:47

and can only happen when we actually get concrete

15:50

, when we start to talk about the ins

15:52

and outs of people's lives and when

15:54

these truths become hard to believe or how

15:56

these truths are so good for people who are struggling

15:59

and finding life difficult or whatever else it is

16:01

. We've got to connect the truth

16:03

of scripture with people's experience

16:05

, because that's where they live out

16:07

the reality that Jesus has lord in their life .

16:10

Sorry , I'm getting passionate about it . It

16:12

sounds like you've been on a journey on

16:14

this issue .

16:15

I think definitely .

16:17

Yeah , yeah , and you've changed

16:19

your own practice on this issue

16:21

as well .

16:23

I think I have . I think it's

16:26

interesting . I go back and read some of my early

16:28

sermons and realise

16:31

that I was very , very keenly

16:33

involved in getting the exegetical details

16:35

exactly right , and

16:37

I do wonder whether there is some development that happens

16:40

in this over any preacher and past his

16:42

life . Just

16:44

for me now , two decades worth of ins

16:47

and outs of people's lives has helped me realise

16:49

that what I'm teaching in the Bible affects

16:51

and impacts real people in the real world . But

16:53

nevertheless , I hope that

16:56

I haven't stopped working hard

16:58

and understanding what the text actually says

17:00

. But I think

17:02

that as we preach it , there is a move

17:04

and I'm going to use very dangerous language here , but I'm

17:06

using it consciously . There is a step

17:09

beyond the text , as you

17:11

actually bring these truths to bear on the hearts

17:13

and minds of the people that you're speaking to . It's

17:16

a move that's controlled theologically , that's

17:19

controlled by context , that's controlled by scripture

17:21

, but it is still a move beyond the text

17:23

and I think the New Testament does it all the

17:25

time .

17:26

Well , let me be vulnerable and you can critique me . I

17:31

think a few years ago , if

17:34

you look at my sermon

17:36

outline , the sermon outlines of talks I've

17:38

done up

17:41

until maybe five or six years ago , you'd

17:43

see Jesus comes to Jerusalem

17:46

that

17:49

would be point two , and Jesus

17:52

cleans the temple , or something like

17:54

that . But then if I think

17:56

of state

17:59

explain , illustrate , apply , I'd Now

18:02

, instead of saying Jesus clears the temple

18:04

versus 1 to 7 , you'd have

18:06

the application line

18:08

and verses 1 to 7 . And I'd actually

18:11

be asserting the application

18:13

line and then speaking

18:16

to the text .

18:19

It's interesting isn't it . So even there's a shift there , right

18:21

? You might say instead of Jesus clears the temple

18:23

, Jesus

18:26

is zealously angry against sin . That

18:29

changes the shape of that . Or

18:31

you might even say Jesus is zealously angry

18:33

about your sin .

18:36

He cares about us not being sinful

18:39

.

18:42

Whatever it is that you put in that space . And

18:46

I think again that is absolutely right and

18:48

it's part of the . We're not just

18:50

dealing conceptually

18:52

, right . So I think lots

18:54

of people use illustrations to explain

18:56

complex ideas or to make some things clearer

18:58

. Illustrations

19:01

are actually application . Illustrations

19:04

are concrete . For me , nearly all the time

19:06

Illustrations are about . This

19:08

is what it looks like when you take these truths seriously

19:11

and you start to put it into practice in your life . This

19:15

is why this is beautiful . Let me tell you a story about

19:17

how this thing in real life and how

19:20

beautiful and good that is , and how thankful

19:22

we are that God's given us this truth .

19:28

And if you've come to a conviction and you're a senior

19:30

teacher of future

19:32

theological .

19:34

Well , I want to say I'm a future teacher

19:36

of preachers and pastors who actually need to love

19:38

people on the ground and bring the word of God to bear .

19:42

What are you doing about it , apart from advising

19:44

me in this conversation ?

19:47

Well , at college over the last

19:49

few years we've been working really hard at

19:51

rewriting a curriculum and

19:54

part of that conversation has been how

19:56

do we do more of getting students to

19:58

engage with the problems of ministry

20:00

life and bring the word to bear in those spaces

20:02

, rather than just kind of learning it as an academic

20:04

exercise ? Now , to be fair , if

20:08

I'm honest with you , I don't think that my lecturers

20:10

at college were any less committed

20:12

to that as a thing . I

20:15

just think we've become more aware of perhaps

20:17

our habits and the ways that that trains

20:19

people , and we tended

20:21

to do so like at college

20:23

you would write an exegetical paper on this passage

20:25

. Now we say write

20:28

an exegetical paper on this passage , write

20:30

a sermon outline , explain how you

20:32

got from the exegetical work that you did

20:34

to the sermon outline and why

20:36

it matters . So we're actually trying to connect

20:39

all of those dots together for people

20:41

rather than move them out into the exhaloes .

20:43

It does also feel like learning styles

20:46

. I mean in terms of I just remember

20:48

thinking , if I want my sermon

20:50

to connect with people with different learning styles

20:52

, I can't just stay in theoretician

20:56

kind of mode . I've got to end up in

20:58

application and there's really a

21:00

clear I'm

21:03

just going to stop you there just briefly .

21:06

Learning styles may ping on some people in the

21:08

education space . Learning

21:10

styles as a thing has been a little bit debunked

21:12

in the education space in the last little while

21:14

. So there's like kinesthetic

21:16

learners and auditory learners and visual learners

21:19

and whatever . When you actually look at

21:21

the information , it doesn't matter which one you are

21:23

and which mode is used . That doesn't

21:25

affect the outcome for students in terms of

21:27

memory and learning . What

21:29

does is if you use multiple modes

21:31

together , everybody learns better .

21:34

Does that make sense ? Why do you think

21:36

it's the case or I think it's the case that

21:38

the Pentecostal Church

21:40

will have a

21:45

congregation made up of

21:47

a learning style that is different

21:49

to the evangelical church

21:51

? I'll just make that broad , classic

21:54

, major assumption .

21:55

Yeah , in God's kindness , it's not true everywhere

21:57

, dominic , I agree with the

22:00

generalization . I think

22:02

in part it's partly to do

22:04

with the difference between being a

22:07

professional and a business runner . Anglicanism

22:13

has traditionally produced people who become professionals

22:15

, not who run their own small business , and

22:19

I think that that's partly to do with our

22:21

educational background . At whatever when I do

22:23

there , there's a lovely little thing that

22:25

Colb uses where he talks about . Adult

22:27

learning is about having an experience , reflecting

22:29

on it , thinking about how it fits with your worldview

22:31

, trying something different and having a go and

22:34

then starting again around the cycle . And you've got to go round

22:36

and round . That's how we learn . That's how it works . When

22:39

I talk to students at university about that

22:41

cycle and what they do , well , most

22:43

of their learning is the sitting and thinking bit and

22:46

most of them have gotten to uni because they're particularly good

22:48

at that sort of thinking bit , like they've been

22:50

predisposed . Some very intelligent

22:52

people that I know who have found the

22:54

schooling system very , very hard to navigate

22:56

because the way that they function and engage

22:59

in the world is very different from the model

23:01

of learning that we give people , and

23:03

I think that our churches

23:05

to some extent reflect

23:08

the cultures that we've been shaped by .

23:10

And how can we preach

23:13

in such a way to appeal

23:15

to a broader group of people than

23:17

the narrow group we've been preaching to ?

23:19

Yeah , all I want

23:21

to say is that if you believe

23:24

that God's trying to show people

23:26

the richness and goodness of living

23:28

under Jesus's Lord and the whole of life

23:31

under him , then you've got

23:33

to preach the Bible in a way that you're not

23:35

talking about an academic exercise . I don't

23:37

want to tell you what Paul said to

23:39

the Galatians . I want to tell you what God's

23:41

saying to you

23:45

. If we take that seriously

23:47

, then we need to sit and engage

23:49

with the text , and I haven't finished

23:51

engaging with the meaning of the text

23:54

until I've actually worked out

23:56

what's this going to mean ? Shape

23:58

change , mold , do for the people

24:00

that I'm speaking to , because I think

24:02

that that's God's purpose in terms of what the scriptures

24:05

are doing . If I get to

24:07

the end of my exegesis and think right now I'm right to

24:09

write a sermon outline , I

24:11

haven't finished .

24:12

The task is what I would say so do

24:14

you find ? That I

24:18

find it so difficult to get the

24:21

actual meaning right that

24:23

it's only when

24:25

that I'm

24:27

therefore squeezing out the thinking time

24:29

about application . But

24:32

I also find that the magic

24:34

happens in terms of me thinking

24:36

about the people in the last

24:39

24 hours before the sermon , whereas

24:41

the work about

24:43

understanding the text , in a

24:45

sense , I can do anytime , do you know ? But it's

24:48

actually the closer I get to the moment

24:50

.

24:50

But I think one of the things I would say

24:52

about that but I would say that that

24:54

last bit that you're doing is an essential

24:56

element of actually bringing the text to

24:58

bear and engaging with the meaning of the text

25:00

. So John Frayme does this

25:03

lovely little thing where he says imagine two people are talking about

25:05

the eighth commandment do not steal . And

25:07

one of them goes I actually think embezzlement

25:09

that's included in that commandment . And another guy

25:11

goes no , that embezzlement is a different kind of thing

25:13

. It doesn't fit under the commandment . They're

25:15

not talking about some application

25:17

of the commandment subsequent to the meaning

25:20

. They are actually still talking about

25:22

the meaning of the commandment as they talk about

25:24

what they believe it means and does in the world in front

25:26

of them . So we actually need to believe

25:28

that that part of the thinking and

25:30

engagement that we do as preachers actually

25:33

ought to drive us back into the text . We ought

25:35

to be asking questions like would the apostle

25:37

who wrote this recognize what I'm

25:40

saying to people in front of me as being

25:42

a valid and helpful application of the truths

25:44

that are here in the text that he was talking about ? Or

25:46

would he not Even simply asking

25:49

that question and then realizing

25:51

we dig back ? So in the last three weeks

25:53

of college with second year I've been talking

25:55

about our doctrine of sin , and

25:57

this last week we just looked at a whole

25:59

heap of concrete scenarios about what we

26:02

believe , about how sin works . What

26:04

do you do with sin in the life of a leader Because

26:07

you believe in sinfulness ? Should you treat

26:09

everyone with suspicion or you should you assume

26:12

incompetence rather than malice ? As

26:16

we talked about it , we realized it's not like

26:18

. When we got there we had walked

26:20

away from our doctrine of sin . That

26:23

caused us to keep going back and thinking well , what do

26:25

we believe about sin ? Where does the Bible say that ? But

26:27

we were talking about the concrete enacting

26:31

of those things in life in the world

26:33

, and that was part of actually digging

26:35

deeply into an understanding richly

26:37

the doctrine which we possess . And

26:40

so I just want to keep saying to people that

26:44

bit where you think you're doing the application

26:46

and it's supposed to be kind of subsequent

26:48

to this , I think you can actually engage

26:50

in it in a way that drives you back into the text

26:52

and says is this what the text is talking

26:55

about ? Does this cause me to see things in the text

26:57

that I haven't seen yet , as I'm thinking

26:59

about my people being spoken to by

27:01

God through this text . How does that

27:03

shape and mould ? You can use

27:05

that as part of the process of engaging

27:08

deeply in the meaning of the text , rather

27:10

than being something that you do after you've

27:12

gotten the first bit right .

27:16

You've written a course to try

27:19

and help people to do better

27:21

in this .

27:22

Well , my thesis was

27:24

about actually trying to improve application

27:26

in student preaching . So I had some

27:28

volunteer fourth year students who came and did eight weeks

27:30

with me as I tried to give them some theory

27:32

and practical advice about what to do with it . And

27:35

we surveyed them before and after and looked at results

27:37

and whatever , and found significant shifts

27:39

in terms of their behaviour , in terms of time

27:42

that they allotted to what kinds of activities

27:44

in their preparation process , when they did

27:46

what , how they engaged the text personally

27:48

, as well as thinking about their congregation

27:51

, all of that kind of stuff and you're going to turn that

27:53

course into a book . Well , the plan

27:55

, dominic is . I have , in God's

27:57

great kindness , more college . Gives me some study leave

28:00

every four years and mines the second

28:02

half of this year . And , god willing

28:04

, pray please . The

28:07

aim is to try and turn this into something that's usable for

28:09

people on the ground , and I'm looking at it .

28:11

I'm looking forward to it and benefiting from it . Paul

28:13

Grimman , thanks so much for coming in . Paul Grimman has

28:15

been my guest . He's the Dean of Students at Sydney's

28:17

Moore Theological College and

28:19

my name's Dominic Steele . You've been

28:22

with us on the Pastors Heart . We will look forward

28:24

to your company next Tuesday afternoon

28:26

.