0:04

One of the first Americans to lead a movement for slave

0:07

reparations was a woman named Callie

0:09

House. She was born into slavery,

0:12

freed after the Civil War, married

0:14

at two, and widowed in her

0:16

thirties. By the late

0:18

eighteen nineties, she was raising

0:21

five children and working as a seamstress. She

0:24

was also helping to start an association for

0:26

former slaves that did things

0:28

like pay for medical care her

0:30

burials. Importantly,

0:34

it also demanded pensions from the federal

0:36

government as compensation for slavery.

0:39

Callie traveled all over the South recruiting

0:42

for the association. Eventually

0:45

she signed up some three thousand

0:47

dues paying members, and

0:49

she sent petitions to Washington asking

0:52

for reparations. She

0:54

also encouraged her members to do the same. They

0:57

proposed a system modeled on money that had been

0:59

award it to disabled Civil War soldiers.

1:03

All ex slaves would get a monthly

1:05

pension starting at about

1:07

four dollars a month. That's

1:09

around a hundred twenty five dollars

1:11

in today's money. Had it Washington

1:14

respond the

1:16

Post Office issued a fraud order against

1:18

Callie and members of the association. They

1:21

said she was using the mail to encourage

1:23

people to ask her something they'd never

1:26

get. When Kelly got

1:28

the letter forbidding her from using the postal service

1:30

for her campaign, she was shocked.

1:33

Then she got mad. The

1:36

historian Mary Francis Barry

1:38

tells the story in a book called My

1:41

Face Is Black Is True Callie

1:43

House and a Struggle for ex slave

1:45

reparations. Here

1:48

she reads Callie's scathing reply

1:51

to the Post Office, and she

1:54

said the Association acted

1:56

on behalf of quote four and a half

1:58

million slaves who would

2:01

turn loose, ignorant, barefooted

2:03

and naked, without a dollar in their pockets,

2:05

without a shelter to go under out of

2:07

the falling rain, but was forced

2:09

to look the man in the face was something to

2:11

eat. Who once had the power to whip

2:13

them to death, but now I have the power to stop

2:16

them the death. We the

2:18

actually feel that if the government

2:20

had a right to free us, she had a right

2:22

to make some provision for us. As

2:25

she did not make it soon after our emancipation,

2:28

she ought to make it now unquote.

2:32

For the next fifteen years, calling

2:35

the Association continued to

2:37

petition the government. For

2:39

its part, the Post Office

2:42

kept marking their mail fraudulent.

2:45

He either returned it to senders or

2:47

destroyed it. In nineteen sixteen,

2:50

Kelly was arrested and then indicted

2:53

on charges of mail fraud and

2:55

all White jury found her guilty and

2:57

she went to prison for one year. And when

3:00

got out of prison, she kept

3:02

the movement up and then she got sick and

3:04

she eventually passed away without

3:06

adequate medical treatment. At

3:10

that time, the idea of reparations was so preposterous

3:13

and threatening to the power structure in Washington,

3:16

it labeled the entire effort fraudulent.

3:20

But the idea of reparations never went away. A

3:23

hundred years later, we're still debating

3:25

what, when, and how to talk

3:28

about it. On the campaign

3:31

trail, when asked about reparations,

3:34

Joe Biden said he was willing to consider

3:36

what the U. S Might owe African Americans.

3:40

Reparations means making up for

3:42

things that happened in the past. Number

3:45

One, there is a study

3:47

being suggested by a former

3:49

presidential candidate and the guy as a friend

3:51

of mine from New Jersey saying we should

3:53

study reparations and make a judgment whether

3:56

or not what they should be, what they should

3:58

do. There's certain things we already know. I

4:01

support that study. Let's see ritatious.

4:04

It was an unusually blunt statement

4:06

for an American presidential candidate to make

4:08

about reparations. But

4:11

in some parts of the US politicians

4:14

and policymakers are moving

4:16

from words to action. There

4:31

there are a couple of things,

4:34

in a couple of ways to look at the whole question of reparations.

4:37

How exactly are you going to

4:39

repay the debt of slavery?

4:41

And who is going to repay?

4:44

Slavery? Is the original

4:46

sin? Slavery

4:48

has never received an apology. Primes

4:51

have been committed, sins have been committed.

4:53

There is a blood debt. I don't think

4:55

reparations for something that happened a hundred

4:57

fifty years ago, for whom none of us currently

5:00

of them are responsible. There's a good idea or

5:02

think brillion dollars in reparation is

5:06

an appropriate statement. It's

5:08

not real reparations unless you give

5:10

the descendence of slavery actual money

5:13

and let them choose how they

5:15

want to spend it as if they were adults.

5:30

Welcome back to the paycheck. I'm Jackie

5:32

Simmons and I'm Rebecca Greenfield.

5:35

We've gone through the stats about the racial wealth

5:37

gap, and as we start to talk about

5:40

reparations. What's important to

5:42

remember is that life in America

5:44

has improved for black people, but

5:48

no wonder how much better it gets. The

5:50

gap has never closed. Not

5:53

only that, but roundabout efforts to close

5:56

it, like creating more equal opportunities

5:58

for black families to build health and pass

6:00

it on to their children, haven't done

6:02

enough. Either. Reparations

6:06

suggest a bigger, more direct kind of

6:08

action, an admission of wrongdoing,

6:10

for one, that the US harmed its

6:12

black citizens, and then money redress

6:15

in one form or another at a

6:17

scale that's commensurate with the harm done.

6:20

Historically, as a country,

6:23

we've been reluctant to consider any of this. Thirty

6:26

years ago, John Conyers Jr. A

6:28

Congressman from Michigan, introduced

6:31

Legislation HR forty

6:33

to establish a commission to study and develop

6:36

reparations proposals. It

6:38

didn't ask for reparations, It asked

6:41

for commission to study the issue.

6:43

That went nowhere in Conyers

6:47

introduced it in the next Congress, and

6:49

the next, and in every session

6:51

for more than two decades. After

6:54

he resigned, Sheila Jackson

6:56

Lee, a black congresswoman from

6:58

Texas, took up the chart.

7:04

Tanahasy Coats published a sixteen thousand

7:06

word article in The Atlantic magazine called

7:09

the Case for Reparations. The

7:11

cover of the issue was black with white text

7:13

that read two fifty years

7:16

of slavery, ninety years of Jim

7:18

Crow, sixty years of separate

7:20

but equal thirty five years of state

7:22

sanction d readlining. Until we

7:24

reckon with the compounding moral debts of our

7:26

ancestors, America will

7:29

never be whole coats. This article

7:31

became the argument for reparations.

7:35

Ron Daniels is a leader of the National

7:37

African American Reparations Commission,

7:40

an independent group that's fighting for reparations.

7:43

He says, the piece restarted the public dialogue,

7:46

and now the idea is getting more attention

7:49

than it ever has, so you really

7:51

have had a almost seismic

7:54

shift and support

7:56

of reparations. This

7:58

is a monum mental moment

8:01

in the history of these United States of America.

8:04

As we were finishing this episode, House

8:06

Committee was debating HR forty, and

8:09

for the first time, legislators were

8:11

considering bringing the discussion to the

8:14

full House. Maybe

8:16

this time it will pass, and that

8:18

commission will study how reparations

8:20

could work and most importantly,

8:22

how much they would cost. Maybe

8:25

after some time, we'll have some answers.

8:29

In the meantime, academics have been

8:31

coming up with answers of their own, trying

8:34

to calculate just how much is

8:36

owed. Susan Burfield,

8:38

a reporter at Bloomberg, is going to help us

8:40

break down the map. So

8:47

First, advocates argue that reparations

8:49

must ultimately be paid by the federal

8:51

government. It's the government that's

8:53

responsible for the laws that kept African

8:56

Americans enslaved. It's the

8:58

government that allowed and perpetuated

9:00

discrimination that benefited white

9:02

Americans. Afterward, it's the

9:04

government that can afford to pay the debt

9:07

in full when it comes to the

9:09

amount that's due. Most believed that reparations

9:11

should at least close the racial wealth gap.

9:13

That's the minimum, and there's different

9:16

ways to get there. Sandy

9:18

Darity and Kirsten Mullen, who co wrote

9:21

a book about reparations, begin

9:23

with the loss of land promised after

9:25

emancipation, that forty acres

9:28

and the mule. They end up

9:30

with about twelve trillion dollars. One

9:33

of their colleagues, Thomas Kramer, starts

9:36

with another loss, the unpaid

9:38

wages African Americans could

9:40

have earned for their forced labor from

9:42

American independence to the start of the

9:44

Civil War. Kramer's German.

9:47

His family was close to a Holocaust survivor

9:49

who received reparations from the government

9:52

for Nazi atrocities. He

9:54

says the money is important, of course, but

9:56

it's much more than that. It's the moral

9:58

reckoning. Mount paid is

10:01

basically a symbolic gesture that

10:05

the apology is meant seriously,

10:08

and that that the perpetrating side

10:10

makes a promise never to repeat

10:12

what was done. Now he's an associate

10:15

professor at the University of Connecticut

10:17

looking at reparations in America and

10:19

what they would mean. He's done

10:22

some calculations the number

10:24

of enslaved people times

10:26

all the hours they could have worked each year,

10:29

times the wages they should have been paid. Then

10:32

he took those lump sums and applied

10:34

to three interest rate to

10:36

figure out how much those earnings would have grown

10:38

from seventeen seventy six to today.

10:42

He estimates that the descendants of the enslaved

10:45

are owed about twenty trillion dollars.

10:49

It's an astounding amount. It's nearly

10:51

as much as the United States gross domestic

10:53

product last year. Kramer

10:55

also says it's on the low end because

10:57

I'm ignoring colonial slavery,

11:00

and in this calculation, I'm also ignoring

11:03

racial discrimination after slavery,

11:06

and both of those injustices, of course,

11:08

had impact on

11:10

the ability to accumulate

11:13

wealth among black families. So this

11:16

is a very conservative calculation.

11:19

He says he wanted to figure the least amount

11:21

of money that could be considered fair. Assuming

11:24

that they're about forty two million descendants

11:26

of slavery in the US today and

11:28

accounting for taxes already paid,

11:31

Kramer says each is due four

11:33

hundred and twenty six thousand dollars. Derrity

11:36

and mullan slightly lower number. That

11:38

twelve trillion would work out

11:41

to about three hundred thousand dollars per person,

11:43

give or take whatever the amount.

11:46

The money could be repaid through a national

11:48

trust, community development programs,

11:51

free college, no interest loans,

11:53

baby bonds, a guaranteed income,

11:56

or cash.

12:00

No one is handing out checks anytime

12:02

soon, but it's an intriguing

12:04

idea for most people. Three

12:07

dollars isn't never work again money,

12:09

but it would be life changing. We

12:12

asked you to tell us what that kind of

12:14

money might change. What

12:18

would I do if I were given three hundred

12:20

thousand dollars UM

12:22

a lot. I think securing a house,

12:25

being able to pay the mortgage for a while receiving

12:27

reparations would give me the peace of mind

12:29

to do things like starting a family and

12:32

making a career change. The first thing I

12:34

would probably do is to pay off any

12:36

outstanding debt UM. I would pay off

12:38

the house I bought a year ago, things

12:40

that my peers who have the safety

12:42

net of generational wealth behind them can

12:45

do right now. After paying off my student

12:47

moment it, I would be able to actually

12:49

afford a home for my family. It would

12:51

be actually very helpful, as

12:53

my other African American co founders

12:56

of a startuple working on have

12:58

been in fund rate mode

13:00

for quite a while. I would allocate a

13:02

hundred thousands of that towards return

13:05

any and all that I may have invest

13:08

in UM retirement

13:10

fund and low costs UM

13:13

index funds actually get

13:15

into the stock

13:17

market low fee

13:21

uh Crypto used remaining one hundred

13:23

thousand to allocate towards

13:26

any business or entrepreneur aspirations

13:29

for one on all of my

13:31

three children, so as to continue

13:33

the generational

13:36

support and the a forward movement of

13:38

moneys through African Americans

13:41

generations and through our family. If

13:43

I could find a multifamily home,

13:45

maybe a triplex or a duplex, with three hundred

13:47

thousand, that would be the thing that would

13:49

provide me with some

13:52

some legacy for my children. So

13:58

what would you do with three hundred thousand dollars? Precisely

14:01

the things that build wealth, that fulfilled

14:03

promise, and in just the way is long

14:06

denied to African Americans. That

14:08

brings us back to the other question, where

14:11

would the US get that kind of money? Kramer

14:17

says that when the Haitian and British governments

14:19

paid reparations to slave owners,

14:22

they borrowed the money, lots of it

14:24

over many decades. Ron

14:27

Daniels points to a moment where the US

14:29

government had no trouble conjuring up

14:31

a couple of trillion dollars in a matter of

14:33

months. The COVID pandemic

14:35

has also shown us something else. They're

14:38

quite frankly, there is no limit to the

14:40

amount of money that the federal

14:42

government can spend. Woof

14:44

is trillionaire to trillionaire. So

14:48

money is not the object. The

14:50

thing is. For a lot of people, money

14:52

is exactly the problem.

14:54

It's one reason full reparations are

14:57

probably a long ways off, but

14:59

for now, cities across the US

15:01

and the state of California are beginning

15:03

to study whether there's a case for local reparations

15:06

and what that might look like. One

15:09

city has been working on this for the past

15:11

few years. It's asked the hard

15:13

questions and answered them.

15:15

Soon it will begin paying what it's calling

15:18

reparations to some of its black residents.

15:28

Evanston, Illinois, just north of Chicago,

15:30

with some seventy five thousand people living

15:32

in eight square miles, calls itself

15:35

progressive. About six of

15:37

the city's residents are black. Some

15:39

of their families have lived there for more than a hundred

15:42

years. There's also a legacy

15:44

of housing discrimination. Evanston,

15:47

like almost every American city, made

15:49

it difficult for black people to buy their own

15:51

homes and to keep the homes they could buy.

15:54

It deprived them of potential wealth, of

15:56

generational wealth. And it's

15:59

that injustice, not slavery, that

16:01

Evanston is first attempting to repair.

16:04

We were lifting up the

16:06

name of the black community and

16:09

making affirmations

16:11

and commitments and ceremonial

16:14

resolutions and proclamations. We were doing

16:16

that very very well. Um in

16:18

Evanston, and yet we

16:20

still maintained a

16:23

ratio divide. Robin

16:25

Ruce Simmons was born and raised in Evanston,

16:28

fourth generation. She's been a real

16:30

estate broker and a bookstore owner. She

16:32

started a construction firm. She owns

16:35

and manages affordable housing and commercial

16:37

property in Evanston. She

16:39

was also representing the city's fifth

16:41

ward on the council, one of

16:43

nine aldermen as they're called, and

16:45

she's the one who first proposed that Evanston

16:48

consider reparations. She

16:51

says that there's an average household income

16:53

difference of forty six thousand dollars between

16:55

black and white Evanston, a thirteen

16:57

year difference in life expectancy, education

17:00

gaps and opportunity gaps, and information

17:03

divides. In February

17:05

twenty nineteen, Robin was about

17:07

midway through her first term on the city Council

17:10

when she wrote an email to Evanston's

17:12

Equity and Empowerment Commission. The

17:15

subject line read Black Equality

17:18

Policy. You opened

17:20

it and it said because reparations makes

17:22

people uncomfortable. She thanked them again

17:24

for their efforts, but said it was

17:26

time to do more. I realized

17:28

that not one policy or one proclamation

17:31

can repair the damage done to black families.

17:34

But in this four hundredth year of African

17:36

American resilience, I'd like to pursue

17:38

policy and actions as radical

17:40

as a racial policies and actions

17:42

that got us to this point. Later,

17:45

she would be more explicit that she

17:47

believed reparations were the only

17:49

way to address the harm in the black community

17:52

in Evanston and beyond. Yes,

17:54

it is reparations. Let's not call it anything

17:57

else to make you feel better about

17:59

your role in it or our

18:01

inability to address it before.

18:03

Now, let's call it what it is. Segregation

18:09

began in Evanston in the years before

18:11

World War One, as black Southerners

18:14

migrated north. By nine

18:16

eighteen, a local paper reported

18:18

on a plan to quote unquote

18:21

freeze out black residents

18:23

from all parts of Evanston except

18:25

for the fifth ward. The

18:27

city began by targeting black residents

18:30

in other parts of town. The housing

18:32

codes could change to say,

18:34

require indoor plumbing or electricity

18:37

or other home improvements. A

18:39

black family might not have the cash

18:42

for that, and then wouldn't be able

18:44

to get a loan to pay for it either. Then

18:47

they'd be forced to sell, sometimes

18:49

for less than what their home was worth. Afterward,

18:52

real estate agents would steer them

18:55

to the fifth ward. Banks

18:58

if they gave mortgages, would do so only

19:00

for homes in the fifth ward. Redlining

19:03

officially began in the nineteen thirties,

19:06

so did a long period of under investment

19:09

by the city, predatory loans

19:11

and contract buying. That's

19:14

when black residents who couldn't get a mortgage

19:17

had to put down a lot of money for a house,

19:20

then pay monthly installments at high

19:22

interest rates. But they didn't

19:24

get the title until the house was completely

19:27

paid for. They never got equity,

19:29

and they could be evicted any time they

19:32

missed a payment. Morris

19:34

Robinson Jr. Is the founder of

19:36

Evanston's Shorefront Legacy

19:39

Center. His hundreds of documents

19:41

showing how all this unfolded, including

19:43

a report written in nineteen forty

19:46

by the Homeowners Loan Corporation,

19:48

a government agency. That

19:51

agency was created to insure loans,

19:54

which allowed more people to purchase homes

19:56

and eventually would help develop the suburbs.

19:59

It was a great deal if you were

20:01

white. It was in fact

20:03

explicitly intended to maintain

20:05

segregated neighborhoods. He

20:08

read to me. The agency's evaluation

20:10

of Black Evanson. Here

20:12

lives the servants for many of the families. All

20:14

along the north Shore. There's

20:16

not a vacant house in a territory, and

20:19

occupancy moreover is about

20:21

one for

20:23

most houses have more than one

20:25

family living in them. This

20:27

concentration on Negroes and Evanson is

20:30

quite a serious problem for the town,

20:32

as they seem to be growing steadily and

20:34

encroaching into adjoining neighborhoods.

20:37

When Robin brought up the idea of reparations

20:39

in twenty nine, one of the first

20:41

things the Equity Commission agreed to was

20:44

to host community meetings to ask

20:46

what residents wanted from a reparations

20:48

program. Out of dozens

20:50

and dozens and sences of recommendations,

20:53

housing continue to be

20:55

an area of concern and a recommendation

20:58

of repair. That focus was

21:00

key for Robin and her colleagues. They

21:02

knew more or less what they were paying

21:04

reparations for, at least initially.

21:07

Now they needed the money to pay for

21:09

it. This is where the broad

21:11

conversation about reparations

21:13

comes up hard against reality.

21:15

Where is the money going to come from?

21:18

In this respect, Evanston got

21:20

a little lucky. It was

21:22

exactly at the time where we started

21:25

doing a doal cannabis. Anne

21:28

Rainey was representing the eighth ward, the

21:30

one closest to Chicago. She

21:33

pointed out the years of prohibition had

21:35

a disproportionate impact on black

21:37

people. That is why the adult

21:40

cannabis legislation

21:42

was passed to begin with, to

21:44

make reparations in that area.

21:46

So that's where we're going to take the money

21:48

to support this program. It was

21:51

a tax, first of all, we had never realized

21:53

before, so we weren't going to be taking it from

21:55

anything. The city council estimated

21:58

that the three percent sales tax on legal would

22:00

bring in about a million dollars a year. They'd

22:03

set aside the first ten million, so

22:06

ten million dollars for reparations

22:08

over ten years, not all for housing.

22:11

How should the city use all that money?

22:13

What other harm did the community suffer?

22:16

What other depths did Evanston Oh,

22:18

that first resolution didn't say

22:20

they'd work out the details later. The

22:23

loose terms bothered one alderman, Thomas

22:25

suffered in and in November he

22:29

was the only person to vote no. Alright

22:32

Resolution nineteen

22:34

establishing a City of Evanson

22:37

funding source about electoral local

22:39

reparations passes on

22:41

a eight to one vote. Congratulations,

22:45

all right for all the hard work to get

22:47

there. There'd be lots more to come, maybe

22:50

more than anyone on the council realized. But

22:53

right then I remember just wanting

22:56

to jump and scream

22:58

and celebrate, and it was

23:00

business as usual. We went on with the agenda

23:03

and I sitting looking like, okay, we're

23:05

just We're just gonna keep one. About

23:08

two weeks later, actor and activist

23:11

Danny Glover came to Evanston and

23:13

spoke in front of a very big, very

23:15

excited crowd. Here's Glover,

23:18

and then you'll hear Michael Neighbors, a pastor

23:21

and president of the local and double a CP.

23:23

It's the beginning of a process. This is the

23:26

most a tense conversation

23:29

I believe that we're going to have in the century

23:32

right reparation. It

23:34

was one of the most electrifying

23:37

moments that I can ever remember

23:39

having. And I've had a few of them.

23:41

I've been around, you know, I've had

23:43

I've had a few electrifying moments,

23:46

but this one was electrifying

23:48

in the local sense. It was electrifying

23:51

for the city of Evanston,

23:53

and it was particularly electrifying

23:56

for the black community,

23:59

and then was back to work on all those details.

24:02

When Evanson's only dispensary began

24:04

selling recreational pot on January,

24:08

there was a line down the street during

24:10

the pandemic. The state deemed the

24:12

dispensary's essential businesses, but

24:15

the city wasn't allowed to collect taxes

24:17

until July. The council

24:19

decided to start its reparations program

24:22

with four hundred thousand dollars. This

24:24

is where the policy's ambitions

24:26

collided with its particulars. Probably

24:29

inevitably, people might agree that damage

24:32

has been done. They might agree that

24:34

restitution should be made, But to

24:36

whom and for how much? And

24:38

who first? Even

24:41

in a relatively small progressive town

24:43

like Evanston, the answers to those

24:45

questions were neither clear nor

24:48

simple. First,

24:50

who's eligible? The

24:52

city council had a mandate to initially

24:55

focus on housing, so it settled

24:57

on grants to help qualified black

24:59

resident buy homes, fix up their

25:01

homes, or stay in their homes all

25:04

black residents. Well. The

25:06

priority is any black resident of

25:08

Evanston from nineteen nineteen to

25:10

nineteen sixty nine, then any

25:13

of their direct descendants, and

25:15

then anyone who moved to the city after

25:17

that and can show that they've faced discrimination.

25:21

And the big question how much the

25:24

council decided on grants of twenty five

25:26

thousand dollars not a lot of money

25:28

in Evanston, where the average home sells

25:30

for twelve times that, and

25:33

no matter what, most black residents

25:35

won't get anything in this first round. That

25:38

four hundred thousand dollars covers

25:40

awards for sixteen people to start

25:43

with. That's a tough number.

25:46

Another reality check, there's

25:49

other restrictions. The residents won't

25:51

get the cash directly that might require

25:53

them to pay taxes on it. Instead,

25:55

the money will go to the financial institution,

25:58

closing agent, or contractor the resident

26:00

is working with. Robin

26:02

says she and her colleagues want residents to be able

26:05

to work with local black owned businesses and

26:07

banks that have a history of fair lending. The

26:10

fifth word, she points out, doesn't have a

26:12

bank, has never had a bank, and

26:15

Black people have every reason to be

26:17

skeptical of a financial system

26:19

that's taken every advantage of them for

26:21

centuries. If we do not give

26:24

them an introduction to a bank that has

26:26

fair banking products

26:28

and other sort of

26:30

consumer products, then we have not

26:33

accomplished anything. And

26:35

and furthermore, if we introduce them to

26:37

a bank that has high fees and rates

26:40

and it is expensive to bank with

26:42

them, then we have not accomplished anything.

26:44

In late March, the council took a second

26:46

crucial vote, this time on whether

26:49

or not to begin distributing the first allotment

26:51

that four hundred thousand dollars. Just

26:54

a few weeks before, a group emerged

26:56

on Facebook. It's called Evanston

26:59

rejects Racist Reparations. Up

27:02

until then, there have been some questions,

27:04

some concerns about the program, but

27:06

no organized opposition. The

27:09

founders of the group are black residents of

27:11

Evanston. They wanted the council

27:13

to delay the start of the program.

27:15

They say it's too small, that it shouldn't

27:18

focus only in housing, It shouldn't

27:20

require recipients to work with banks and

27:22

other financial institutions that have discriminated

27:25

against the black community. It

27:27

shouldn't even be called reparations. There

27:32

are some admirable efforts made by municipalities

27:35

to its tones of the damage is caused by their

27:37

own race based policies. However,

27:40

it is unfortunate when those acts of atonement are

27:42

confused with reparations. A

27:44

limitation of the proposal that's brought

27:46

forward is that the funds are constrained

27:49

to home ownership. Home

27:51

Ownership is only part of the deficit

27:53

and assets held by Black

27:55

Americans. And I want you to think about

27:57

this. If any of your family members there how

28:00

was burned down, they were killed, car was

28:02

crashed, and then someone walks up and says,

28:04

here's twenty cent as

28:06

a good start, and I promised

28:09

to do better later to give

28:11

you back what you lost. That's

28:14

what that looks like, it feels like to us.

28:18

That was the author's Kirsten Mullen and Sandy

28:20

Drty and Malika Gardner, the

28:22

founder of Evanston Live TV. Speaking

28:25

at that city council meeting, lots

28:27

of others said they were proud of their city, that

28:30

the program was a good start and one

28:32

that was a long time coming. Cecily

28:36

Fleming, one of the council's three black

28:38

members, had already announced her decision.

28:41

She'd opposed moving forward with

28:43

what's now called the Evanston Local

28:45

Reparations Restorative Housing

28:47

Program. I think reparations is, you

28:49

know, somewhat of a sacred term and a thing that people

28:51

have waited for four hundreds of years, and too you

28:54

know, even in the local level kind of water it

28:56

down to a housing plan, even at the first

28:58

effort. I know this is the first plan. We

29:00

take these cribs and hope that we're going to

29:02

get more crumbs later instead

29:05

of just saying, you know what, we deserve a whole piece of game. The

29:08

measure passed, with Fleming the only

29:10

no vote. I think it is a good housing

29:12

plan. I think people will use it and

29:15

need it um. But I want

29:17

them to reach hire right. I want black votes

29:19

to want freedom

29:22

afterwards. The reparations experts,

29:24

Kirsten Mullen and Sandy Daity continue

29:27

to argue that Evanston's program wasn't

29:29

actually reparations. In

29:31

an OpEd in the Washington Post, they wrote,

29:34

true reparations only

29:36

can come from a full scale program of

29:38

acknowledgement, redress, and closure

29:41

for a grievous injustice. This

29:44

is an argument over more than just semantics.

29:47

It's an argument over what's possible and

29:49

what's necessary and how far America

29:51

will go. Should

29:53

reparations the word the idea

29:56

be reserved for that big debt owed

29:59

by the federal government, the three hundred thousand

30:01

dollars or more that would close the racial

30:03

wealth gap, or can it

30:05

also be smaller efforts to redress local

30:07

injustice. Evanston's

30:09

answered that for itself, Robin

30:12

and our colleagues say that what they're doing has

30:14

to be just a first step. Robin

30:18

decided not to run for reelection, so

30:20

she'll give up her seat in May, but

30:23

she'll be a community member of Evanston's

30:25

new reparations Committee, an

30:27

adviser on other local initiatives, and

30:29

an advocate for HR forty.

30:32

So we are moving forward

30:35

knowing that this is not going

30:37

to bring us full repair. We

30:39

understand that more

30:41

reparation programming is necessary.

30:43

We understand that black residents

30:46

need access to cash and deserve

30:48

it, But we also understand that this

30:50

is a process and waiting any longer

30:53

is irresponsibility. The

30:56

reactions in Evanston shouldn't be surprising.

30:59

Restitution is complex and emotional,

31:02

and at the local level won't ever be

31:04

enough. The city council

31:06

expects that by the fall it will have

31:08

selected the first group of black residents

31:11

to receive the housing grants. Policymakers

31:14

and citizens, advocates

31:16

and critics will be watching, evaluating,

31:20

maybe hoping the

31:31

US were to go down the path of federal

31:34

reparations, it could look

31:36

to other countries that have paid money to populations

31:38

that have been harmed. Next week on The

31:40

Paycheck, we had to the UK, where

31:43

the government is in the midst of what it's calling

31:45

a compensation scheme for its black

31:47

residents. It's less of a

31:49

model that a cautionary tale. There

31:52

are a number of problems with the compensation scheme,

31:55

and if the obvious one is that the scheme

31:57

itself lacks independence. The

32:00

Hostile Environment policy was

32:02

a policy discriminated

32:05

against immigrants to this country, and

32:07

it was a policy that was implemented by the UK

32:09

government. So there is a bit of a case of

32:12

the government marking its own homework. Thanks

32:20

for listening to The Paycheck. If you

32:22

like the show, please rate, review, and

32:24

subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.

32:27

This episode was hosted by me Rebecca

32:29

Greenfield and me Jackie Simmons.

32:32

Today's episode was edited by Janet

32:34

Paskin and reported by Susan

32:36

Berfield with the help of Jordan

32:38

Holman. We also want

32:40

to thank all of our listeners who took the

32:42

time to call or send in voice

32:45

memos about reparations. This

32:47

episode was produced by Magnus Hendrickson.

32:50

We also had production help from Lindsay Craddowell,

32:52

an editing help from francesco Leabe Rocksheeta

32:54

Soluja, Jackie Simmons, David

32:57

Sheer and me. Original

32:59

music is by Leo Sidrien. Francesca

33:02

Levie is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. We'll

33:04

see you next time, m