0:03

I

0:27

just wanted to take a break and let you

0:29

know how you can support the show. Head

0:32

on over to freemanbeyondthewall.com

0:34

forward slash support. You

0:36

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0:39

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0:42

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0:45

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0:47

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0:54

Send me anything you want.

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0:57

and your continued support means the world to me.

1:00

Thank you very much.

1:03

I want to welcome everyone back to the Pete Kenyanya

1:05

Show.

1:07

I'm here with Patrick. Patrick, how are you doing today? I'm

1:09

doing good. Thanks for having me

1:11

on.

1:12

Yeah, man. Tell everybody

1:14

a little bit about yourself. First time on the show.

1:16

Okay. What do you do? First of all, this

1:19

is quite an honor to be on the show. Initially

1:24

I host a little podcast, which

1:26

is sort of in the deepest corridors,

1:28

I would say of the web. It's not

1:31

very well known, but I've interviewed some

1:33

rather noteworthy people

1:36

on my podcast. I've had the fortune

1:38

of doing that. So what I do is

1:41

initially it started out as kind of an identitarian

1:43

podcast and I decided to

1:46

sort of shift my analysis

1:49

from identitarian politics to

1:52

everything from survivalism to stuff

1:56

like more complex sort of metapolitical

1:58

topics and historical topics.

1:59

topics. And,

2:02

um, but primarily that's, that's

2:04

sort of within the realms of identitarian

2:06

pop politics and also like extreme

2:09

politics as it relates to modern

2:11

day America.

2:13

I've been really getting into history,

2:15

obviously, um, having Thomas 777

2:19

averaging like an episode a week for,

2:21

you know, over a year now and doing

2:24

as much as

2:26

many other history podcasts as I can.

2:28

So when you reached out and

2:31

you wanted to talk about something that I had

2:33

heard of, but not something that I haven't,

2:36

I didn't really dive deep into and

2:39

also something that, you know, I was

2:41

alive when it was happening. Um,

2:44

sure. Yeah. I want to hear about it, especially since

2:47

the, uh, the intrigue of the parties

2:49

involved. So you reached out

2:52

and you said that you want, um, what

2:54

I'd be interested in talking about, um, a

2:57

little period in Italian history,

2:59

the 1968

3:00

to 1988, um, the main period called,

3:06

uh, the years of lead.

3:08

How'd you get into it?

3:11

Practically, I looked into

3:13

the years of lead after getting involved

3:15

with, uh, this thinker by the name

3:17

of Franco Freda.

3:19

I had heard about this thinker

3:21

from a person I had interviewed on my

3:23

podcast, um, by the name of, that was

3:25

his name, zero skits. So, and

3:28

if you look at my archives, you can probably find

3:31

that episode

3:33

where we try to discuss it, albeit many

3:35

of my guests and broken English, because they

3:37

are from, uh,

3:39

Peru and Mexico

3:41

respectively.

3:42

So I was interested in

3:44

this period because of Franco Freda, primarily

3:47

because Franco Freda,

3:48

as I'll get into later is a very fascinating

3:51

and interesting

3:53

character and, and also a, what

3:55

you would call a neo-fascist. Uh, that's

3:58

what scholars call, call them. I don't.

3:59

think Freida himself would probably call him a

4:02

neo-fascist,

4:03

he would see himself in the mold of a revolutionary,

4:06

both combining national

4:08

socialism and Maoism,

4:10

two things that are very contradictory. But

4:13

he's also one,

4:15

I would say, the premier accelerationist. Because

4:17

I wanted to understand sort of how accelerationism

4:21

molds the political landscape

4:23

as things start to shift

4:25

from the extreme right to

4:28

the extreme left. It's sort of like

4:30

a pendulum, you know, it

4:32

fluctuates and oscillates back and forth

4:35

in American society. And I think America has

4:37

never seen these sort of extremes. It's seen

4:40

sort of individual sort of extremes

4:43

and third parties, but it's never seen the extremes

4:45

that

4:46

Italy, you

4:48

know, has seen. And it really fascinated

4:50

me to because a lot of the

4:53

sort of neo-fascist groups and even a lot of the leftist

4:55

groups have a sort of perspective

4:58

that I've seen on a lot of the more fringes

5:01

on the right.

5:02

And that's why I sort of got into the

5:04

years, I got into the years of lead. Well,

5:08

I think probably the most interesting part

5:11

of it is when

5:13

you start looking at who was

5:16

involved and for

5:19

lack of a better term, just the belligerence that

5:21

were involved.

5:24

It was just far left, far

5:26

right.

5:27

CIA was in there. Gladio

5:29

was a part of it. This

5:32

could be considered a part of the Cold War in

5:35

essence. And when you look

5:37

at who allegedly supported

5:40

some of these people, some of the

5:42

parties involved, I mean, this

5:44

goes as deep as anything I've

5:46

ever seen.

5:47

Absolutely. And that's part of why I

5:49

got interested in it because as America

5:51

starts to get more gridlocked in

5:54

terms of democracy, in my opinion, starts

5:56

to fail, I believe you're going

5:58

to see more of the rise of the extreme left

6:02

and the extreme right to

6:04

coincide into potential violence.

6:06

We haven't seen that now,

6:08

but I believe in that we have seen that

6:11

to a small extent. And

6:13

there have been errors of violence

6:15

in American history from the anarchists.

6:18

Well, what's funny is

6:20

people will tell you, oh, Antifa

6:23

and what happened the summer of 2020. I

6:25

mean, that's just horrible. It's incredible that that

6:27

happened in the United States. There

6:29

were literally terrorist attacks all

6:31

through the sixties and seventies in major

6:34

cities. People forget all of the

6:36

frigging hijackings that happened in the

6:38

1970s. You

6:39

know, take me to take me to Cuba, take me to

6:41

Puerto Rico. People hijack and

6:43

play. I mean, it was what

6:46

we've seen so far in

6:49

the last few years has been, you

6:51

know, pretty, or at least since Trump

6:54

or you could say Ferguson, Missouri

6:57

really helped to kick this off. But

7:00

you ain't seen nothing compared

7:02

to what it's compared to what could.

7:04

Yeah. And I say

7:07

that as could in and actually there is

7:09

a sort of an

7:11

analog in Italian history

7:13

to what happened on January 6th.

7:16

There was where the neo-fascist

7:18

actually occupied the minister of interior and

7:21

tried to stage a coup. That was in 1970

7:24

by this guy named Borghese,

7:27

who was a former sort

7:29

of squadron leader of the fascist.

7:34

His name was Borghese and he

7:37

did,

7:37

they did stage a coup and at the last minute,

7:40

it was sort of cold off. And

7:44

so I think there are a lot of analogous

7:48

kind of features of the years of lead, which

7:50

we will, we see on both, on both sides.

7:53

I don't know if you really could call idealistically the

7:55

people of January 6th, neo-fascist in

7:57

the same sense.

7:59

But yeah. Yes, you definitely see these sort

8:01

of parallels between the two societies.

8:04

The only thing I will say is the way

8:06

that the left and right are structured in Italy

8:08

is they're a little different than

8:11

Americans in that they sort of have

8:13

a cultural landscape

8:15

and a cultural milieu to sort of tap

8:17

into Americans. No disrespect

8:19

to anyone or sort of formless and

8:22

they sort of are just consumerist.

8:24

There really is no romantic notion of

8:27

America anymore like there was, let's

8:29

say, you know, during the frontier, even

8:33

like in the 50s. There is no, and

8:35

during the 50s, I think that's when sort

8:37

of the romanticism of America started to wane.

8:40

The neo-fascist, and I'm

8:42

just calling them that just for the sake of

8:44

brevity, and the leftist,

8:48

saw Italy as something

8:51

to culturally tap into. And

8:53

that's something I see that is different

8:56

from America itself. America

8:58

itself,

8:59

like I said, doesn't have the institutions.

9:01

It doesn't have sort of the culture

9:03

that Italy had at the time. And I

9:05

will say this, that

9:07

Italy itself has

9:09

a very rich history and revolutions. And

9:13

that goes back to the Risio Gimento.

9:19

That goes back to during that period

9:21

when there was a guy named Mazzini, Gerebaldi,

9:25

and there were many other sort of

9:26

Italian patriots.

9:29

Now what's interesting about Gerebaldi

9:32

was, of course, I would say the warrior

9:34

faction

9:35

of the Risio Gimento.

9:40

Mazzini was more of the thinker. Mazzini

9:42

was never appreciated within his

9:44

time period, but he took

9:47

the formations of the 1848

9:50

revolutions throughout

9:52

Europe and he decided to

9:55

put a uniquely sort of Italian stamp

9:57

on it. He was... a

10:00

big proponent of secret

10:02

societies. He was a big proponent

10:04

of something called the Carbonari,

10:07

not to be mistaken by the Cabaneri,

10:09

or the,

10:11

they were actually this kind of mystical

10:13

sect that people think may

10:16

have formed many of the mafias in

10:19

Italy itself. So

10:22

the lodge system in Italy,

10:25

and that will play a big part in the years

10:27

of lead because of course there

10:29

was this lodge called the Propaganda

10:32

Dew.

10:33

That was where a lot of the sort

10:35

of neo-fascist and even some of the Christian Democrats

10:39

sort of hid out and

10:41

was able to, you know, front

10:44

for a lot of the state actors which were helping

10:46

out both sides.

10:48

Well in Italy there's a dual system,

10:50

there's a dual lodge system that is a visible

10:52

lodge and an invisible lodge.

10:54

So unlike other forms

10:57

of masonry,

10:58

this had kind of a unique stamp

11:01

of Italian stamp on it

11:03

and Mazzini took full advantage

11:05

of that. Now Mazzini is interesting because

11:07

he rejected the socialism

11:10

of Karl Marx.

11:11

He was a friend of Adam Weishaupt. This

11:13

has led to a lot of speculation such

11:15

as the

11:17

very sensationalistic letter

11:19

that people often

11:21

tout as Mazzini and Albert Pike. That's

11:24

largely a fabrication,

11:27

but Mazzini was motivated

11:30

by the nationhood, by

11:32

Italy finally

11:34

overcoming the hegemony of

11:37

the Austro-Hungarian

11:38

Empire.

11:39

He was tired of Italy being under

11:42

the heel and Italy of course

11:44

was divided into sort of three zones. The

11:47

only place of course being free

11:50

was the Kingdom of Piedmont and

11:52

he assembled a group of people

11:54

called the Young Italians. The Young Italians

11:57

decided to strike out. And

12:00

that's one like misconception

12:02

people think they have about Italy itself is

12:05

Italy was always a violent place. It

12:07

was always a

12:09

place of revolt. And

12:11

this is like distinctly seen

12:15

in Mazzini's revolution and

12:17

Garibaldi's revolution, but also

12:19

many of the early

12:21

sort of anarchist that made

12:24

up the

12:25

Italian landscape. They

12:28

always embraced the sort of notion of death,

12:31

this notion of like warriorhood,

12:33

this notion of like

12:37

these democratic ideals

12:39

could not overcome them. And this is like

12:41

Mazzini, even though he was sort of into democratic

12:44

ideals, he was also a pan-Europeanist.

12:48

And I think he was probably one of the first pan,

12:50

correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't

12:52

think the notion of pan-Europeanism

12:55

really became, was prominent during

12:58

the time, during the late 1800s. Correct me if

13:00

I'm wrong, if that's

13:01

the case. No, as far as I know that

13:03

that movement, if that movement existed, it would

13:06

have been splinter.

13:07

Well, yeah, Mazzini was a pan-Europeanist.

13:09

He wanted to see a unified Europe

13:12

at that time. And I know in our scene,

13:14

there's a lot of people to think that connotes

13:17

a kind of nefarious

13:19

sort of notion.

13:20

And also

13:24

what's interesting about Mazzini is

13:26

there was a, you're a younger

13:28

person by the name of Bakunin,

13:31

which if you're familiar with like the

13:33

early sort of history of anarchism,

13:37

Bakunin and Mazzini,

13:39

what he actually was inspired by Mazzini

13:42

about the secret society. Mazzini

13:44

didn't believe in the pageantry or

13:47

any of the metaphysics of Freemasonry.

13:49

He simply used the Masonic

13:52

Lodge as sort of a political tool.

13:55

He saw it as like he secularized masonry

13:58

and saw it as a means to sort of... rebel

14:01

against both the Vatican and the monarchy

14:03

at the time,

14:04

which I think a lot of people in your audience

14:07

are probably reactionaries and they're pro-monarchy.

14:10

But this is around the time during the 1848 when

14:13

monarchy was sort of being questioned and these liberal

14:15

ideals of nationhood were coming to the forefront.

14:18

And Italy was no exception. Italy was, matter of fact, the

14:20

last probably to adopt

14:23

any of these notions, because it was seen as a

14:25

backwater, like

14:26

Italians

14:28

and Italian nationhood was sort of just seen as under

14:30

the heel

14:31

of the Austro-Hungarian

14:34

empire and also the Vatican.

14:36

And I think Evola, he mentions

14:38

this, the Ghibelene and

14:40

the Gelfene, the

14:42

Giffleen,

14:43

they mentioned the Ghibelenes, of course, being the

14:46

Austro-Hungarian empire

14:48

and the Gelfines being sort

14:50

of the Vatican, being the Pope.

14:53

And

14:53

those were the two sort of factions

14:56

that were controlling most of Italy's

14:58

history after the fall of Rome

15:00

and after the fall of the Byzantine empire. Now,

15:03

the reason why I mentioned all this and I'm

15:06

going to move on is because

15:10

this set the stage for

15:12

the use of revolutionary violence. Revolutionary

15:15

violence is very important

15:17

throughout Italy's history,

15:19

throughout Italy's formation.

15:21

And as you can see, even many

15:23

of the earlier people were like the anarchists. And

15:27

in fact, I have a thing

15:29

I want to read from

15:33

this particular anarchist named

15:36

Renzo Novotore. If

15:39

people are not familiar with him, he was sort

15:41

of the precursor of, or

15:43

maybe influenced by sort of the

15:46

embryonic stages of futurism.

15:49

Futurism is a very strange,

15:51

I will say ideology,

15:54

but it is something that came within Italy

15:56

itself. And it's something I believe

15:59

set the stage.

15:59

for the radical extreme on

16:02

the right and the left in Italy and it's it's

16:04

staying made his made his stamp

16:07

preceding that also there was

16:10

a group of people like I mentioned Bakunin

16:12

there was a guy named Sergey Sergey

16:15

Sergey nichif

16:18

sorry if I'm mispronouncing these words but he

16:20

was a

16:21

nihilist he was this this nihilist

16:23

anarchist that spread all

16:25

throughout Russia during the mid 1800s which

16:27

was responsible

16:28

for a lot of different

16:32

assassinations they were also

16:34

he developed the cell system

16:37

which you see a lot of revolutionaries

16:39

both on the left and the right further

16:42

use today and

16:44

this guy was adapted

16:47

by a lot of the 60s radicals including

16:49

the red brigade which I'm going

16:51

to discuss

16:53

and he pretty much

16:55

said that

16:57

the path of a revolutionary is doomed

16:59

it's it's a person that they have

17:02

to live breathe and sleep revolution

17:05

they don't see on any other recourse

17:08

into developing this

17:11

now this

17:13

is like I said I have not

17:15

seen this sort of fervor in

17:18

any other form of you

17:20

know scenes in Europe and

17:23

matter of fact I have not seen a parallel

17:25

of the violence

17:26

that was escalated in the years

17:29

of lead in any of the other

17:31

sort of post World War II countries

17:33

there was a little bit of

17:36

radicalism with the red army faction

17:38

in

17:39

Germany itself but the red army faction

17:42

largely I think was

17:44

largely a blip on

17:46

the radar of like in

17:48

largely German speaking countries

17:51

but I think Italy sort of has a

17:53

unique sort of revolutionary stamp

17:57

on that so anyway

17:59

let me read this from Sergei

18:01

Nechiv. The revolutionary is

18:03

a dedicated man. He must not

18:05

be driven by his personal impulses, but

18:09

must be directed by a common interest of the

18:11

revolution. For him, the only thing that

18:13

is moral

18:15

and that contributes to the triumph of revolution,

18:18

all that obstructs that is immoral

18:20

and criminal.

18:23

And that is like the words of

18:25

Catechism of a revolutionary by

18:27

Sergei Nechiv. That was part of

18:29

the milieu that contributed, I believe,

18:31

to a lot of the

18:33

early impetus of

18:36

Italian anarchism, which would

18:38

probably manifest itself in later times

18:41

in the

18:44

Red Brigade. I would even

18:46

argue many of the fascists, the

18:48

divide between the fascism and anarchism

18:51

in

18:52

Italy itself and how

18:55

it's delineated is an

18:57

interesting subject unto itself. And many

18:59

people that are in Antifa

19:01

will argue that

19:05

the fascist stamp on anarchism or the

19:07

anarchists that stamp on fascism

19:10

is a point of contention to a lot of

19:12

modern-day anarchists.

19:14

Now, I'm personally not an anarchist myself,

19:16

but I do find the subject rather

19:19

interesting, considering the fact that this is

19:22

sort of the framework that

19:23

a lot constructs a lot of the sort of postmodern

19:26

kind of left, especially the so-called

19:28

revolutionary left, which I said largely in America.

19:31

It's based on liberal

19:34

ideals, mainly about

19:37

identity as opposed to ideology.

19:41

Now, this is something from Renzo Novatore.

19:44

He says, only the one who knows

19:46

and practices the iconoclast fury

19:48

of destruction can possess

19:50

the joy born of freedom, of

19:53

that unique freedom fertilized by sorrow.

19:56

Eyes rise up against reality and the outer

19:58

world for the triumph.

20:00

the reality of my inner world. I

20:02

reject society for the triumph

20:04

of I. I reject the stability

20:07

of every rule, every custom, every morality for

20:09

the affirmation of every willful instinct.

20:13

All free emotionality, every

20:15

passion, and every fantasy. I

20:17

mock every duty and

20:19

every right so I can sing free

20:22

will. I score in the future to

20:24

suffer and enjoy the good, bad, and

20:26

present.

20:26

I despise humanity because it is

20:29

not my humanity. I hate tyrants.

20:31

I detest slaves.

20:33

I don't want, I

20:35

don't want, and I don't grant solidarity

20:37

because I'm convinced that the new chain

20:39

and because I believe with Ibison, the

20:43

one is the most alone

20:45

is the strongest world. One. This

20:48

is my nihilism.

20:49

And further he says we have killed

20:52

duty so our ardent desire for

20:54

free brotherhood acquires heroic valor

20:56

in life.

20:57

We have killed pity because

21:00

we are the barbarians capable of great

21:02

love. We have killed altruism

21:04

because we are the glorious egoist.

21:07

We have killed philanthropic solidarity

21:10

so that the social man unearths his

21:12

most secret eye and finds the strength

21:15

of the unique and that is Renzo Novatore

21:17

towards a creative nothing and other

21:19

writings.

21:21

This sounds like it could be the the

21:23

shining path and Peru could have adopted

21:25

that. They're probably the most probably

21:27

the most nihilistic

21:29

of all the communists in

21:32

the 20th century. Oh yes shining

21:34

path is is an interesting interesting

21:38

anarchist group but yes I think

21:40

they probably did adopt a lot of the Russian

21:42

nihilist.

21:43

The reason why I'm reading this is because I'm

21:45

trying to produce a backdrop of

21:48

sort of what influenced a lot of

21:50

both the fascist and

21:52

the the leftist

21:55

and I will say also another prominent thinker

21:57

that is very important is

21:59

Cyril. George S. Surreal. George

22:03

S. Surreal, of course, in

22:05

his reflections upon violence, he

22:08

emphasized that the violence

22:10

of the proletariat

22:13

was a sort of measuring

22:15

stick for class

22:18

and a strengthening and kind of a cleanser

22:22

of sort of the bourgeois

22:24

Z. And I think

22:26

this appealed to a young Mussolini

22:28

very much Mussolini, who

22:31

at the time was a socialist when he was

22:33

reading surreal or

22:36

Sorel

22:37

really was impressed by this and really

22:39

was impressed

22:40

that there was sort of a syndicalist

22:44

thinker, such as Sorel that was

22:46

embracing sort of Nietzsche and, you

22:49

know, concepts of overcoming.

22:54

And not,

22:55

you know, emphasizing kind of,

22:58

you know, the oppressed or that

23:01

our sorrow should be a main

23:04

staple of,

23:06

you know, kind of leftist thinking, or

23:08

that, you know, the oppressed. Well,

23:11

Thomas has done

23:13

two episodes together on Sorel on

23:16

reflections on violence. I keep a copy of it on

23:18

my desk with

23:20

me. You know, Thomas said

23:23

Sorel is what

23:25

Nietzsche should have been.

23:27

I actually agree because Sorel

23:29

was kind of proactive, unlike Nietzsche was

23:32

sort of not pro Nietzsche just sort of wallowed

23:34

and sort of is,

23:35

you know, in his own nihilism as much

23:38

as he wanted to overcome so I kind of agree with

23:40

that, that Sorel kind of put

23:42

Nietzsche's thoughts into praxis,

23:45

as opposed to just, you know, lingering

23:48

and I

23:51

agree with that 100% about his

23:53

observations about Sorel.

23:56

But I think this inspired,

23:58

and this of course inspired me, Giovanni Gentile,

24:01

who was also inspired by Hegel, who

24:03

came up with a concept called actualism,

24:06

who saw sort of the state as

24:08

a

24:08

necessary function to move history

24:11

as opposed to like class

24:13

antagonism. So

24:16

that's a little backdrop about some

24:19

of the foundations about, you know, the

24:21

ideological foundations, I believe, that are very

24:24

essential to the years of lead. That

24:26

is Bakunin, his concept

24:29

of, you know, violence and the commune,

24:31

the eternal commune, the

24:34

concept George S. Sorel and his concept

24:37

of like a heroic violence. In

24:40

addition to that, also

24:44

the concept of Sergei Nechiev

24:47

and the horror, of course,

24:49

the nihilist revolutionary, which

24:52

would later sort of influence

24:54

the Red

24:56

Brigade. Also one

24:58

central feature that I've noticed with the

25:00

left, that's maybe some commonality

25:03

in America itself, is the

25:05

use of criminals, which

25:08

I believe, according to Marx, would be called the lumpen

25:10

pro. However,

25:12

to the Red Brigade, the

25:15

Red Brigade believed that

25:17

the prisons were fertile grounds

25:20

for recruitment for their

25:24

revolt against the state and their

25:27

Marxist-Leninist expression. They

25:29

saw the,

25:30

you know, prisons as a fertile ground

25:35

of sort of recruitment. And

25:37

I believe that's some commonality with the

25:39

left in America, but I think there's some vast

25:41

differences there. Like I said, the Italian landscape

25:44

is a little different from America in that

25:47

largely, I don't want

25:49

to stereotype Italians or

25:51

Italy because it is

25:54

a good culture, but there is some,

25:56

you know, streams of corruption

25:58

in terms when... you know, the state

26:01

and criminals and politics,

26:03

you know, radical politics come into play. In

26:06

many cases, maybe the, you

26:08

know, Red Brigade and maybe even the fascists

26:11

themselves, who also recruited, I would

26:13

say, from the criminal underworld, really

26:15

didn't have a choice in terms of

26:18

what their bad, who their bad men were.

26:21

So let me get into sort

26:24

of the post

26:26

World War II Italy. Excuse

26:31

me. Now post World War II Italy is

26:33

an interesting study onto itself,

26:36

because you have, like

26:38

I said, the division between North, Central

26:41

and South Italy. These

26:43

things are important geopolitically.

26:46

And this is an important portion

26:49

of meta history. The Allied forces

26:51

are largely

26:54

disposed of the Sallow Republic. The

26:56

Sallow Republic was the remaining public

26:59

of the fascist

27:01

that was still remaining in 1940, in the early 1940s to the

27:03

mid 1940s. Now at the same time,

27:06

and I want to say that in

27:09

terms of the years of lead, there's many different things

27:11

in the backdrop that's going on simultaneously

27:13

in tandem with one another. And

27:16

there's many layers to this. And I want to

27:18

illustrate this to

27:19

the audience that understand

27:22

that there's many different,

27:24

like layers to Italy and the foundations of Italy.

27:28

Well, the

27:31

Americans, I believe people

27:33

like James, Jesus, Angleton, and

27:35

I don't want to get too far into like

27:37

conspiracy territory, because,

27:40

you know, this topic can lead to a lot

27:42

of like conspiracy and a lot of

27:45

different layers and Italians from

27:47

what I've researched and what I've looked

27:49

into, they really love conspiracies. They

27:51

really love conspiracies. But anyway,

27:54

a very important player in Italy's

27:56

sort of foundations

27:58

of all people.

27:59

is James Jesus Engleton.

28:02

James Jesus Engleton had

28:05

this notion because

28:07

of his experience with Kim Philby.

28:10

And Kim Philby was this

28:13

sort of spook that was, you

28:15

know, part of the British

28:18

intelligence that was also a double

28:21

agent.

28:22

And because of this, this incident,

28:25

James

28:26

Engleton, James Jesus Engleton

28:28

decided that it would probably

28:30

be a good proactive measure to try

28:33

to stop communism from

28:35

spreading into, you know, portions of

28:39

Western Europe.

28:41

And at that time, it was really important to keep communism

28:44

out of,

28:45

you know, places like, you know, it was

28:48

rather failed, but it was important to keep

28:50

it out of like central and,

28:52

you know, expanding any further into

28:54

like,

28:55

you know, you know, places like Yugoslavia,

28:58

etc. The Czech Republic,

29:00

they didn't want it to spread there because

29:02

Italy was a

29:03

very important sort of geopolitical

29:06

position for them to

29:09

have to seize upon. Well,

29:11

he decided

29:13

because his father also had many

29:16

friendly relations with Mussolini.

29:19

Now that fascism is sort of condemned

29:21

in America, it's important to note

29:23

that America itself used to be on friendly

29:26

relations with Mussolini.

29:28

When Mussolini rose to power, many

29:30

people thought he was sort

29:32

of a prodigal.

29:34

They thought he was sort of the answer

29:36

to a lot of the problems

29:39

that was with socialism and democracy.

29:41

So they sort of herald him as,

29:44

and you know, a figure. There was a lot

29:46

of friendly gestures to America.

29:49

Well, Angleton's father was very, was

29:51

a businessman, he

29:53

established a lot of factories and

29:55

managed a lot of factories in Italy itself. And

29:57

it's, it's, it's, it's a big, big deal. And

29:59

I think

29:59

The son lived there for a little while. I think this

30:02

made an impression upon his son, just

30:04

like the Kim-Philby incident. What Angleton

30:07

decided to do is he decided

30:09

to collude with a lot of the

30:11

former fascist that were

30:13

getting liberated by the resistance. America

30:17

was using the resistance. At the same

30:19

time, it was working with the fascist.

30:21

That's how

30:23

American geopolitics work. It's

30:26

anything that's Machiavellian that

30:28

can work on either political extreme. They will

30:30

utilize that to maximize that to

30:32

its fullest extent. And

30:35

Angleton was doing this.

30:39

He devised and he was in charge

30:42

of the Italian desk

30:45

up until, I believe, 1946. I

30:49

think he was uninstalled. But still, gladios

30:52

stay behind networks largely

30:54

in

30:55

Italy, probably where the probably

30:57

was the work of James Jesus Angleton.

31:00

We'll never know for sure if that

31:03

is like the

31:04

definite person who started this

31:07

because like I said, a lot of Italian history

31:09

around this part is kind of this point is kind of

31:11

murky on all sides. But we do

31:13

know

31:14

that the intelligence agencies were heavily

31:17

fixed into Italian politics at

31:19

this time. And the communists

31:21

were gaining a lot of foothold in

31:23

the northern portion of Italy.

31:26

There's no doubt about it. Around post

31:29

World War Two, there was a lot of industrial

31:31

development due to the Marshall Plan.

31:34

A lot of southerners, a lot of people

31:36

from southern Italy who were more agrarian

31:39

started to migrate to places like Milan,

31:41

Padua, all

31:44

these different places in northern Italy,

31:46

which later I believe will be hotbeds

31:49

in Tuscany, which will be hotbeds

31:51

of both

31:52

neo-fascist and also

31:55

like leftist sort of extremism.

31:59

So it's important. to note that

32:01

these are the ground levels,

32:03

these are the players.

32:05

So what they did is they divided these different

32:07

parties. They made the Christian Democrats, the Christian

32:10

Democrats were sort of these moderates.

32:12

They had a coalition

32:14

of both center-right, center-left people.

32:18

There was, of course, the PCI. They

32:22

were an Italian communist group. They

32:24

were largely

32:26

sort of subdued. They were kept out

32:28

of elections.

32:29

It didn't stop their popularity, of course,

32:32

because Northern Italy, for whatever reason,

32:34

has always been a hotbed with the exceptions

32:37

of places like Venice

32:39

or Tuscany of leftist,

32:42

communist sort of extremism.

32:45

It's always been a hotbed of that. I

32:47

don't know why that is. It always seems like

32:49

the further closest to the Germanic

32:51

speaking, you know, the German

32:54

speaking sort of nations, it seems

32:56

to have sort of these progressive

32:59

or liberal ideas seem to appeal

33:01

to a lot of these groups.

33:04

I don't know why that it, maybe there's a bio character,

33:06

maybe there's something biological

33:08

in there that's intertwined with their politics,

33:11

but this is a very hot spot for that. This

33:14

is a very, so

33:16

there also was, in addition to that,

33:18

the MSI. The MSI was

33:21

a fascist group. It was a fascist

33:24

group. And I will note,

33:26

unlike Nazi Germany, there

33:28

was never a de-naz any

33:31

kind of a de-fastification, if that's even

33:33

a word, of Italy. There

33:35

was never any kind of cleansing of

33:37

the Italian infrastructure of

33:39

fascists. Fascist were

33:41

ingrained, and they were entrenched

33:44

in all of the military and

33:46

all of

33:48

the different sectors,

33:51

the military sectors, the police sectors,

33:53

and the state intelligence sectors. So

33:56

they didn't really cleanse,

33:58

if that's appropriate word. they never really

34:00

cleansed, you know, Italy

34:03

of any of the sort of fascist infrastructure.

34:06

And this continued

34:08

on a day. That's why I think Angleton

34:10

and some of the intelligence agencies were

34:12

able to sort of collude with one

34:15

another against the communists. Well, 1948 rolls

34:17

around

34:20

and the communists are gaining momentum.

34:23

The communists are gaining momentum. This

34:25

is the first time in Italy's politics

34:27

they interfere with the elections.

34:30

Now, let me just emphasize, I'm not pro-communist.

34:33

I need to illustrate that I'm not pro-communist.

34:35

I'm just stating

34:37

what is a historical fact.

34:40

America, for better or worse,

34:42

interfered with the elections

34:44

of Italy. And, you know, I

34:46

think this will probably set the trend in America interfering

34:48

in many different elections across

34:51

the globe. But part of the ground

34:53

zero was in Italy. And

34:55

they stopped, they put the Christian Democrats

34:59

in a position of power.

35:01

And I believe this antagonized

35:03

not only the leftists who

35:06

saw the, the communists saw the

35:08

Christian Democrats and also even the mainstream

35:11

Communist Party as being sort

35:14

of interlopers and not true

35:16

representation of their

35:18

ideology. So this like locked the system.

35:20

This provided a type of gridlock that

35:23

we see in today's democracies.

35:26

This provided a kind

35:29

of, this paved the way for the

35:32

years, the years of lead. And with

35:35

the MSI, however, the initial

35:38

person they installed

35:40

was actually anti-U.N.

35:42

Now, America didn't like that. America didn't

35:44

like, and they didn't like the fact

35:46

that they were anti-NATO, anti, sorry,

35:49

not anti-NATO, anti-U.N.

35:53

They didn't like that at all. They wanted

35:56

to uninstall him. So they did. And they

35:58

put in a more friendly sort of moderate. fascist

36:02

candidates. So like I

36:04

said, this calls a lot of splinter.

36:06

This calls a lot of derision in

36:09

the MSI. And

36:10

like I said, all these things are going on in

36:13

tandem in the backdrop. And it

36:16

just created sort of a elaborate

36:18

teen sort of mess in Italy

36:20

itself and

36:21

made sort of things kind of convoluted

36:24

and

36:25

really paved the way for extremism.

36:31

Fast forward to 1960. Well, actually, let

36:34

me go back to 1957. 1957, there is a new party.

36:37

This is a more extreme party. This is called the

36:46

Nuovo or Dane.

36:48

This is the national

36:50

order. This was started by

36:52

a guy named Pino Ratoi.

36:59

And he,

37:01

of course, would have under his

37:03

tutelage,

37:04

both

37:05

a guy named Stefano de la Chiay

37:09

and also Franco Freida, which I'm sure

37:11

people in your audience know who Franco Freida

37:13

is. They may not be

37:15

that acquainted with Stefano

37:18

de la Chiay. Now,

37:22

the radical faction

37:25

of the fascist. Can

37:27

we just say

37:29

Franco Freida is still alive. Yeah,

37:31

he's still alive, yes. Yeah, he's 82. Yeah.

37:34

It'd be really cool to interview

37:37

him if anybody could get an interview with him. Yeah.

37:39

That would be really awesome if someone could do that. And

37:42

I'm kind of, I'm impressed who Franco

37:44

Freida is. That's

37:45

pretty awesome. But like I said,

37:52

people don't know who Stefano de la Chiay

37:54

is. And he's actually kind of just as important

37:57

as Franco Freida himself because they

37:59

actually colluded.

38:00

with one another and they also now

38:04

I've heard people say Frank Alfredo

38:06

was largely responsible for most of the terrorist

38:08

activity that occurred during the

38:10

years led this is actually incorrect.

38:13

The guy who was largely the

38:16

bag man

38:17

and is very elusive is

38:19

Stefano de la Chi I

38:22

and this guy is as fascinating

38:24

as

38:25

Frank Alfredo. So

38:28

Stefano de la Chi I he decides to he

38:31

wants to

38:34

start his own party he

38:37

doesn't like the

38:39

MSI he doesn't like the

38:42

Nuovo Ardine he starts

38:44

the Avangardia he starts

38:48

the Avangardia which is the

38:52

the new order not

38:55

sorry not the new order but the let

38:57

me find yeah he starts the

39:00

Avangardia National Vanguard

39:02

national yes yes sorry National Vanguard yes sir

39:05

he starts the National Vanguard and

39:08

he decides he decides to take

39:11

politics in a more sort of extreme

39:14

manner

39:15

now I have held

39:18

off on mentioning the strategy attention

39:20

but I'm going to mention here right

39:22

now about the strategy attention well strategy attention

39:26

there's some controversy about its its

39:28

origins

39:30

you could attribute it maybe

39:32

to you know the state

39:34

actors which were colluding with the CIA and

39:36

glaudio but I think that's a little

39:39

bit too simplistic

39:41

because people like

39:43

Stefano de la Chi I and Freda

39:45

himself actually wanted to

39:49

they wanted to accelerate the destruction

39:52

of the state

39:53

they did not respect

39:55

the the sort of democratic republic

39:58

which was installed by a mayor

39:59

They saw it as decadent.

40:02

They saw it as degenerate.

40:03

They saw it as entrenched in sort of Americanism

40:07

and the purveyor of liberalism

40:09

all across Europe. They wanted something

40:11

that is more heroic. They wanted

40:13

something that is more warrior-like and

40:15

they believe the only means

40:18

that you could develop this society

40:20

was through blood. They

40:23

didn't believe you could, you

40:25

know, compromise with the state.

40:27

They didn't believe there was political action. They

40:30

believed simply that you had to attain

40:32

this

40:33

sort of, and they sort of had a metaphysical

40:36

understanding of attaining the statehood

40:38

through the

40:40

works, and I'm sure your audience

40:42

knows, of Julius Evola.

40:44

And they were especially fond of a particular

40:46

book called Ride the Tiger,

40:48

which in that book

40:51

I believe Evola says, and I

40:53

have read it, Evola says that

40:56

a holy warrior, and I basically

40:58

is based upon war.

41:00

The person has to bring

41:03

about a new order, bring around

41:05

a new sort of like what he said, or

41:07

aristocracy, you know, of

41:09

the soul

41:10

through war. You couldn't like mince

41:13

words. And I think this fire

41:16

that Evola had and the adaptation

41:19

of Evola's principles to by

41:21

Stefano de la Chiayi

41:23

and also to Freida harkens back

41:25

to Sorel, it harkens back to people

41:27

like Renzo Novotore,

41:29

it harkens back to, you

41:32

know, even I would say even to Mazzini,

41:35

to where there was like the spirit to

41:37

where the modern day world democracy,

41:39

Americanism is like a corrosive

41:42

rot

41:43

in Italy itself. It's a rot,

41:45

it's disease that's spreading all throughout

41:48

society. And I will contrast

41:51

sort of the notions

41:53

of the fascist

41:55

versus the leftist, sort of the communist

41:58

in that they kind of. wanted the same

42:00

thing but they wanted a different ideal.

42:04

The Communists didn't care

42:06

about aristocracy, they didn't care

42:08

about sort of a new spiritual sort of aristocracy,

42:11

they instead wanted sort of a proletariat

42:14

sort of dictatorship based upon pure

42:17

Marxist-Leninist

42:19

praxis, ideology.

42:21

The Communists in the

42:23

state, they wanted to do

42:27

things through more,

42:28

they wanted to compromise, they wanted to do

42:30

it more through state action,

42:32

people like the Red Brigade,

42:36

they wanted to strike the system just

42:38

like Freida and I think that's probably

42:41

why Freida

42:42

decided it was good to strike

42:45

up a relationship with the left

42:47

and the right. Now Freida

42:49

of course didn't

42:52

get much popularity,

42:53

he was not very popular in his time and

42:55

I think there's probably more people on the internet

42:58

that sort of appreciate Freida

43:00

and

43:01

his brand of accelerationism

43:05

more so than anybody

43:07

at the current like contemporary.

43:10

Like

43:10

Freida was considered I think a nut by

43:13

most the

43:14

left and the right, he was sort of a marginal

43:16

figure. Now

43:18

let me go back to strategy attention. The

43:20

strategy attention

43:23

came about in a meeting

43:25

between Pinal Ratui,

43:28

Stefano De La Chiay,

43:30

Freida

43:32

and a various other neo-fascist.

43:34

They had a meeting in 1964

43:37

and there probably were

43:40

plenty state actors there, there were probably people

43:42

from the P2 Lodge, there

43:44

were probably people from the CIA,

43:46

there were probably various different like state actors

43:48

that were acting as

43:50

officials and

43:53

sort of brokering between the two sort

43:56

of factions. And a matter of fact what's interesting is

43:58

the MSI itself

43:59

you sort of used the neo-fascist

44:03

themselves as sort of broke

44:05

as sort of bag men. They sort of saw

44:07

the

44:08

N.O. and the A.V. as

44:11

sort of like people that you

44:13

could, they

44:15

were actors upon the state, people

44:17

from which you could easily utilize

44:19

and then discard. So they saw them

44:21

as bag men

44:23

to dispense violence across

44:25

Italy. And

44:27

like I said, this is all still very controversial,

44:31

however, make of what you

44:33

will say about violence. But

44:36

obviously at this time, they thought that was a

44:38

very good strategy. They thought the CIA

44:41

state actors in Italy

44:43

thought it was all something

44:45

that should be maximized to its fullest extent.

44:49

Now, strategy attention said that they would do

44:52

terrorist acts

44:54

and they would blame it on the left. Now,

44:56

the left, let me just tell you, the left is no

44:58

stranger to

45:00

violence as we can kind of, as

45:02

I discussed earlier, sort

45:04

of the dictates that it was based upon,

45:06

you know, the anarchist, Italy's

45:09

history of the left has, you know, been tremendously

45:12

bloody and they did

45:14

not mind utilizing the left.

45:17

And the left didn't mind. The

45:19

only pronounced difference, I will say, between

45:22

leftist and rightist sort of strategy

45:25

attention violence

45:26

was that the right tended to focus

45:29

on

45:30

bombing public areas

45:33

and the left, they liked to kidnap

45:35

magistrates, public officials.

45:38

They did something called kneecapping.

45:40

Kneecapping was where they

45:43

would shoot someone in the kneecap.

45:45

I don't know where they got that method

45:47

from, but that was a very popular method amongst

45:49

the left at the time. They

45:52

would actually kidnap

45:56

these different middle management

45:58

factory workers. and engineers and

46:01

chained them up to different factories.

46:03

So it was unheard of because

46:05

simultaneously as the strategy

46:08

and attention was unfolding,

46:11

there was also like, this was soon

46:14

to be the hot autumn

46:15

in 1968, which

46:18

was the spread of

46:20

these leftist notions that were adopted from

46:23

France and from America itself,

46:25

kind of their equivalent of

46:27

the 1960s in America. So they

46:32

started to adopting these

46:34

sort of radical ideologies

46:36

within their milieu. So like I

46:40

said,

46:44

the use of violence was not unknown

46:46

to the left. So

46:48

they thought the State Department

46:51

of Italy, the state intelligence

46:54

and the CIA and probably a lot of the neo-fascist

46:56

said, well,

46:58

they don't like one another. Okay. They

47:00

were very strange bedfellows.

47:03

And oftentimes when I read stuff about

47:06

Freida or Stefano de la Chi,

47:08

I often wonder the people

47:11

that are examining, you know,

47:13

these people just as their analysis to the

47:15

left, do these people really

47:20

understand or truly want to understand

47:22

why

47:23

such terrorism sort of manifests

47:25

itself?

47:26

What causes this? What

47:28

central thing about democracy seems

47:30

to irritate people to the extent

47:34

to where they want to lash out at the system very

47:36

violently to where they shut out

47:39

any kind of, let's

47:41

just say heroic notions or

47:43

any kind of notions of valiancy

47:46

or warrior

47:46

hood or like, it's

47:49

like almost like

47:51

neoliberalism and postmodernism. It

47:53

doesn't matter that these notions,

47:56

Italy is as democratic. Everyone

47:58

is represented.

47:59

and everybody has a representative, everyone has

48:02

their say, and therefore it invalidates

48:04

or nullifies any kind of tradition which

48:07

any of this country had. It doesn't mold or

48:09

shape itself to the tradition of the country.

48:13

It simply creates this

48:15

aberration

48:17

for what I've seen of democracy. They

48:20

don't have this notion that maybe there's

48:22

something wrong with democracy itself. Every

48:24

single scholar I've read on the years of lead,

48:28

they don't want to qualify

48:30

what causes this. They're very

48:33

vague about what caused this.

48:36

Now, one thing that's

48:38

interesting also preceding the years of lead

48:41

which shows state collusion, was

48:44

this incident that occurred

48:46

a coup in 1965, called

48:51

the piano solo. This

48:53

is where a neo-fascist and some

48:58

of the state actors wanted

49:00

to destroy

49:04

the communist centers. They also wanted

49:06

to kidnap and hijack

49:12

the government at the time. What's

49:15

interesting about that is that

49:17

many people believe this is a false flag.

49:20

I don't know how people feel about false flags,

49:23

but the

49:26

Italian politician of Aldo

49:28

Moro, which

49:30

in later times which was kidnapped by the

49:32

Red Brigade in 1978.

49:39

They tried to actually kidnap

49:42

him. They tried to exile

49:44

and deport filmmakers

49:48

like Pasolini,

49:50

who was an Italian communist

49:52

filmmaker. He did the

49:54

sallow days of Sodom.

49:57

They wanted to hijack the Italian

49:59

communist the television industry, the

50:02

communications, and they wanted

50:04

to occupy government buildings.

50:06

And this was largely the mastermind,

50:09

I would say of the

50:11

Italian State Department, the Italian

50:13

intelligence. And of course,

50:15

again, they were using the neo-fascist sort of as

50:17

bag been

50:19

to utilize this. Excuse

50:22

me. Now, what I wonder about this, maybe you

50:24

can fill me in with this Pete,

50:28

is what do you think about,

50:29

you know, this sort of state

50:32

intelligence in Italy itself,

50:35

sort of utilizing the neo-fascist as bag

50:37

men?

50:38

I mean, it would

50:39

seem to line up with, with

50:42

glaudio, with what we know about

50:44

glaudio, you know, what, you

50:46

know, we asked the question, why was there not a de-notification

50:49

in Italy? Well,

50:51

I mean, I think it's obvious. I mean, I think that's

50:54

just, if you know anything about

50:56

glaudio, that question answers

50:58

itself.

50:59

But I mean, I've often wondered why, I

51:02

mean, I know, I understand Italy was a central sort

51:04

of geopolitical point.

51:06

And this is saying, I believe the same thing is going

51:08

on right now with Ukraine.

51:10

I hate to veer off topic, but I think Ukraine

51:12

parallels a lot with the years led in

51:15

that they're sort of,

51:17

they're utilizing, in my opinion, the far

51:19

right to implement

51:21

a lot of the neoliberalism in America

51:24

in Ukraine itself. That's very controversial.

51:28

I know, but that seems what they're doing. It seems

51:30

like the far right are

51:33

always willing actors of sort

51:35

of the CIA or the State

51:37

Department of Intelligence.

51:40

They always latch on. And I'm

51:43

just gonna say, I believe that the far right

51:45

has some healthy instincts about tradition,

51:48

about- Well, the right, I

51:50

mean, Thomas talks about this in

51:53

our Spanish Civil War series. And

51:55

there's no fascist international.

51:58

So- That's right.

51:59

have if you have a leftist

52:03

or a communist or any kind

52:05

of leftist movement pop

52:08

up in a country, especially back then, there's

52:10

international money flowing in. Anything

52:14

that would pop up from the right,

52:16

you know, and people are going to be like, well, these guys weren't

52:18

right wingers and everything. It's like, these

52:21

are European right wingers. It's a different thing.

52:23

Have some nuance shut up.

52:26

If they're motivated, they're

52:29

basically willing to take their money wherever

52:31

they can get it. And unfortunately,

52:33

it seems like a lot of the time, a lot of the

52:35

time when, you know, I know basically

52:40

for the coup took help from

52:42

the CIA, but he immediately kicked them out.

52:44

I mean, I have the CIA, I have his, the

52:47

CIA's file on him. They hated that guy.

52:50

And he was not a CIA puppet. He used

52:52

the CIA, which is, I mean, one

52:54

of the reasons why, you know, the

52:56

man was brilliant. But

52:59

I think it's just more of anything

53:01

that you don't have international

53:04

support. Right wing movements

53:06

don't have international support like left wing movements

53:09

do. So right wing movements take

53:11

support wherever they can get.

53:14

That's a good assessment. But

53:17

what I did discover, however, when

53:19

I was investigating in the years of lead is Stefano

53:22

De La Chi I actually was an international

53:25

thinker. He was a

53:26

person that thought geopolitically internationally.

53:29

Now, whether that was by coercion,

53:32

by a bug, by coercion, by

53:34

the CIA, or by, you know, other factors,

53:37

he had the wherewithal

53:40

to

53:41

strike out

53:44

alongside the OAS.

53:47

I don't know if you're familiar with the, if your audience is

53:49

familiar. I'm not going to underestimate the intelligence

53:51

your audience, but I think they're probably

53:53

familiar with the OAS. The OAS was this French

53:56

sort of pro-colonial

53:59

force that was.

53:59

going throughout Algeria

54:02

and they were fighting against the former

54:05

anti-colonialist movements. Chi-Ai

54:09

actually struck up a friendship

54:12

or an alliance with the OAS,

54:15

which of all places was actually

54:17

going through

54:18

this particular publishing company called

54:21

Agenter Press. I don't

54:23

know if anyone's heard

54:25

of that, but Agenter Press

54:28

was this publishing company.

54:30

It was really a front for a paramilitary

54:32

organization that many people think might

54:34

be a front for the CIA or some

54:37

intelligence agency. It was based in Portugal,

54:39

but Chi-Ai had the

54:41

sort of tact, tactum to

54:45

initiate a relationship with them, to

54:48

use them to disperse his

54:50

message.

54:52

This also is interesting as

54:54

he also struck up a...

54:56

There was no international, but there

54:58

was a group of people in Spain and

55:00

Franco is Spain

55:02

that was largely sympathetic to the neo-fascist

55:04

in Italy that did harbor them. This

55:06

was made comprised of Otto Scorsese. I

55:09

believe DeGrelle was a member. I believe Raymer.

55:12

I believe many of these former sort of

55:14

national socialists and fascists

55:17

were sympathetic to the

55:19

Italian neo-fascist. Stefano

55:22

D'Elachie,

55:23

especially in this, will

55:25

pertain to the Piazza Fontana

55:27

bombing. The Piazza Fontana

55:30

bombing was a cataclysmic

55:34

event in Italy's history.

55:36

This is the first time

55:38

that we sort of see the

55:41

strategy of tension take root.

55:43

Largely, this

55:46

is considered to be...

55:47

The authorities at the time didn't see

55:49

it as the brainchild of Franco Freida,

55:52

although they will round it up later. They

55:54

also round up Stefano D'Elachie. They

55:59

saw it as the brainchild.

55:59

of the anarchist. There was

56:02

this particular anarchist

56:04

from which they

56:06

threw out the window. They actually,

56:08

they interrogated him, this

56:11

officer by the name of Luigi Calabresi,

56:15

threw this anarchist

56:17

out the window to his death and called it a suicide.

56:20

An investigation later proved that it was

56:23

largely the

56:24

Italian cops did throw the anarchist

56:26

out the window during 1969.

56:30

Now what's interesting about Stefano De La Chiay,

56:33

he put his money where his mouth is

56:35

in terms of the strategically

56:38

or the strategy attention is that he

56:41

was allegedly trying

56:43

to utilize the local, this anarchist,

56:45

which was hopping

56:48

from the neo-fascist to

56:50

the anarchist to the leftist

56:53

by the name of, I

56:56

believe his name was Merlin Maralindo.

57:00

And now Maralindo

57:03

claims that he was

57:05

not a neo-fascist,

57:07

he was not a

57:09

part of that, but he belonged to

57:11

the same neo,

57:12

the same anarchist

57:14

faction that this particular anarchist

57:16

that got thrown out of the window in,

57:19

during due to interrogation.

57:23

Now of course like Freda

57:26

was brought in for questioning

57:29

and tried, and I believe

57:31

it was, he, in his

57:33

entire sentence they never proved that Freda

57:35

was responsible for the Piazza Fontana,

57:38

largely because they couldn't match

57:40

the detonator that he used and the sort

57:43

of German leather that he used for the bombs

57:46

that was throughout Padua

57:49

at the time or Milan.

57:51

They couldn't like match up

57:53

any of these factors and he claimed

57:56

of course there was a particular

57:58

Algerian that

57:59

that gave him the detonator. But

58:03

what's interesting about Freida is, you

58:06

know, Freida sort of shows that there was collusion

58:08

with the State Department and the State Department

58:11

locked his you know, he locked

58:13

the whole information in kind of a box of security

58:16

box to where he could get

58:18

to to prove that he was colluding with

58:20

like state actors. But nevertheless,

58:25

1969 sent kind of chills

58:28

down, you know, Italian spine,

58:30

it sent chills down their spine, because, like,

58:32

oh, I think over 14 people died, 88 people were injured in the

58:34

entire blast. And

58:35

while there

58:37

had

58:40

been like violence and coups, and

58:43

especially leftist violence in the north,

58:45

you

58:46

know, in the factories and kidnappings,

58:49

this was

58:51

probably the incident

58:53

and the turning point in the years of lead. This is what

58:55

really kicked off the years

58:57

of lead. And this this also inspired,

58:59

didn't

59:00

deter a lot of leftists from

59:04

from also practicing sort of their extremism.

59:06

The leftist section were motivated by this.

59:09

The Red Brigade were just gaining, you

59:11

know, steam at this time,

59:13

which was

59:15

found that in university, coincidentally

59:18

in the same area of Trent

59:20

Trento by

59:23

Renato Karushi,

59:26

and also Margarita, forgive

59:28

me if I'm mispronouncing Margarita

59:31

Margarita Kargil Kargil, yes, Kargil.

59:33

They founded the Red Army faction

59:36

around in, you know, 1970.

59:38

And by the way, good CEO,

59:41

he's still alive to

59:42

who's that Renato Cortillo, he's

59:45

still alive to. Oh, he's in prison. Yes. What

59:47

an interesting story he has, though. What an

59:49

interesting story. I would even like to talk

59:51

to him if I could speak Italian proficiently.

59:54

I mean, the things he would probably tell

59:56

me.

59:58

Because like I said,

59:59

Some of the interesting facts

1:00:02

about the Reborgate

1:00:03

is, you

1:00:05

know, they had so

1:00:07

many people that

1:00:09

were infiltrating them at the time.

1:00:12

You know, they had so many people that were, and I think this

1:00:14

sort of applies to our scene now

1:00:16

is, there's all these

1:00:19

groups now that, you know, people call them

1:00:21

feds. They call like Patriot Front Feds.

1:00:23

They call, you know, each other

1:00:25

online feds. They had this

1:00:28

sort of discourse where there's like suspicion

1:00:30

of everybody, and maybe that's justified. But

1:00:33

the Italians at the time were no different. They

1:00:35

were suspicious of everybody

1:00:38

and everybody that was in their group. So

1:00:41

I

1:00:42

think the other person that founded

1:00:44

the Red, the Reborgate

1:00:47

was a guy named Francisi,

1:00:51

Francisi,

1:00:53

I think it was his name. He was like one

1:00:55

of the earlier

1:00:56

founders along with Kagu and

1:01:01

Renato Karushi.

1:01:04

And he largely suspected

1:01:06

there was this earlier adopter of

1:01:11

like the Red Brigade of, and he quickly

1:01:14

after joining the Red Brigade, decided

1:01:16

to defect, defect to, you

1:01:19

know, this was around the time

1:01:21

when they were capturing, they were

1:01:24

kidnapping and capturing sort of magistrates,

1:01:26

and then we're starting to get a little bit more violent. He

1:01:29

defected to France,

1:01:31

and he started this particular

1:01:34

study,

1:01:35

the school called the Hyperion Language

1:01:37

School,

1:01:39

which sort of was the leftist

1:01:41

counterpart to the Agentra Press that I mentioned

1:01:43

about Stefano de la Chiay.

1:01:46

And this has

1:01:48

just been one conspiracy theory after

1:01:50

another when it comes to Italian

1:01:53

politics. No one could ever decide

1:01:55

if,

1:01:57

you know, there was a type of...

1:02:01

There was a type of infiltration in the Red

1:02:03

Brigade, but there is no doubt

1:02:05

that there was infiltration. There

1:02:07

was infiltration. I mean, I guess that

1:02:10

that's a dilemma that you sort of have

1:02:12

if you are an open

1:02:14

sort of group and you are a terrorist group

1:02:16

at that. And even if you are like,

1:02:19

you know, practicing the cell system,

1:02:21

which they were doing

1:02:23

in various different cities, they were

1:02:25

in the Italian north, they were doing, you

1:02:27

still couldn't stop

1:02:29

sort of federal infiltration.

1:02:31

And

1:02:32

there was like in 1972,

1:02:37

there was this person

1:02:39

that infiltrated their cell and

1:02:45

they started, they had to go underground because a lot

1:02:47

of their people were getting locked up. A

1:02:51

lot of their people were getting sort of thrown

1:02:53

in jail. And then what's unique

1:02:55

about Italy is that

1:02:56

it doesn't, it didn't matter if like, you know,

1:02:59

dissidents

1:03:00

or people that were in these extreme,

1:03:03

you know, political groups were getting locked up. They

1:03:05

were seen in prison

1:03:07

as heroes. The

1:03:10

people in prison sort of saw them as heroes. And

1:03:13

the prison at the time was

1:03:15

so lax. It was so lax. There

1:03:18

wasn't much infrastructure in keeping people in

1:03:20

prison. So literally,

1:03:22

literally in the Red Brigade, there were

1:03:24

the leader, Renato,

1:03:27

he got locked, he got like,

1:03:30

he got locked up by the

1:03:32

largely by the work of a guy named Dichesia.

1:03:36

Again, forgive me if I'm

1:03:37

mispronouncing that name, but

1:03:40

this was a guy who was sort

1:03:43

of

1:03:43

battle hardened by his

1:03:45

dealing with the mafia and Sicily. And

1:03:49

they decided to hire him to try to get rid

1:03:51

of the menace,

1:03:52

what the Italian state saw as the menace of

1:03:54

the Red Brigade. And this guy

1:03:56

sort of utilized all the latest.

1:04:00

innovations of surveillance.

1:04:02

He had everything

1:04:05

to surveil the Red Brigade. He

1:04:07

would wiretap, he'd

1:04:10

send informants.

1:04:11

And yeah, he's the one responsible

1:04:14

for putting

1:04:16

Karushi in jail. He's

1:04:18

the one largely responsible for disbanding.

1:04:22

Of course, it didn't disband the Red Brigade

1:04:24

because

1:04:25

the Margarita

1:04:27

Kagu was able,

1:04:29

along with the Red Brigade, to bust him out of prison.

1:04:33

And the funny thing is that while

1:04:35

they were in prison, they were recruiting new

1:04:38

people. They were just

1:04:39

getting adherents left after

1:04:41

right.

1:04:42

And they didn't have a problem with recruiting the

1:04:45

people. It was

1:04:46

very popular. That's another central feature

1:04:48

of the

1:04:49

Red Brigade, is people don't understand.

1:04:53

Antifa isn't very popular.

1:04:55

But in Italy,

1:04:58

it was very popular. The

1:05:00

Red

1:05:01

Brigade was extremely

1:05:04

popular. And the neo-fascist counterparts

1:05:06

as well were

1:05:07

very popular too.

1:05:10

People have this notion that

1:05:13

people into fascism or national

1:05:15

socialists are sort of from the margins and

1:05:17

the lowest tiers of society.

1:05:19

Well, in this case, the

1:05:22

neo-fascist were recruiting from universities.

1:05:24

The extreme left were recruiting

1:05:26

from universities. Freida

1:05:28

himself was a lawyer and a well-educated

1:05:31

man. He was not like

1:05:34

a peasant.

1:05:35

So the leadership at least, and even

1:05:38

though they did draw from a largely working class

1:05:40

and even peasants on both sides, the

1:05:44

sort of like leading

1:05:47

figureheads of all these

1:05:50

factions were largely educated.

1:05:52

Renato graduated,

1:05:56

got a scholarship

1:05:58

to the Institute of

1:05:59

sociology.

1:06:02

Oh, and just, and I know this is, this one's

1:06:04

easy to forget. Renato was released

1:06:07

from prison in 1998. How

1:06:09

was he? He's been, he's

1:06:11

been free. I didn't know that. Yeah. He's been free since 1998. He

1:06:14

actually started a publishing company

1:06:16

and started publishing leftist literature

1:06:20

while he was in prison. Really?

1:06:22

Yeah. I mean, he also was like reading

1:06:24

books on explosives when they

1:06:26

actually busted him out, when they busted him out, when

1:06:29

Margaret Kaguil busted him

1:06:31

out of prison. He was actually reading, he

1:06:33

was right there reading, you know,

1:06:35

explosive manuals.

1:06:37

And Margarita Kaguil,

1:06:39

she,

1:06:41

she wasn't so fortunate. She got killed,

1:06:43

I believe, in 1970, 75. I believe she got killed

1:06:46

then by, by 1975. Now, let me discuss an interesting

1:06:52

character.

1:06:55

And I think a lot of people should probably take heed

1:06:57

to this that are activists

1:06:59

about the whole notion of infiltration

1:07:02

into groups,

1:07:04

whether you're extremist group or whether you're, you know, whatever.

1:07:07

If you're, I don't, by the way, don't endorse

1:07:09

any kind of violence and disavow, but

1:07:11

if you're like just an average sort of like,

1:07:14

you know, group in America and the American

1:07:16

system, because they are, for one I've seen,

1:07:18

a

1:07:19

lot of these security think

1:07:22

tanks, such as TRAC and

1:07:24

others, they are utilizing

1:07:26

data they've extrapolated from

1:07:28

the

1:07:29

years of lead

1:07:30

and tracking

1:07:32

different groups, not even extremist groups, but

1:07:34

just far right

1:07:36

groups. I'm sure they do it to the far left

1:07:39

more so, but it seems like, you know, conversely

1:07:41

in America, the far right, the far

1:07:44

left is probably given a more of a free ride,

1:07:46

just like they were kind of in Italy. There

1:07:48

is like typically more favoritism, I think,

1:07:50

to the FBI and to intelligence agencies, probably

1:07:53

to, you know, people like Antifa or

1:07:55

leftist, maybe because they see them as harmless.

1:07:59

I don't know.

1:08:01

But they definitely were not, I will say the left in

1:08:04

America is nothing like the Red Brigade. They

1:08:06

are nothing like the Red Brigade. You may not like

1:08:09

their ideology or their politics,

1:08:12

but largely they were about their praxis.

1:08:14

They knew their praxis

1:08:16

inside and out, and they didn't mind

1:08:19

destroying the system to try to implement

1:08:21

a sort of Marxist-Leninist state.

1:08:24

They didn't want anything to

1:08:26

do with Americanism.

1:08:27

And this is one of the differences I've

1:08:30

seen with the Italian left

1:08:32

and sort of the European left, is they

1:08:34

are more traditional. You

1:08:36

know, you discuss the Spanish Civil War,

1:08:38

and just to contrast

1:08:41

those two things, is the anarchists

1:08:43

in the Spanish Civil War largely were going

1:08:45

around desecrating holy

1:08:47

relics. Like they were desecrating

1:08:50

and I believe digging up

1:08:52

priests, and they were destroying

1:08:54

churches. They were defecating, and this was also pretty

1:08:57

common, I think even in Romania.

1:08:59

There were these communists

1:09:01

that were doing that desecrating

1:09:03

sacred items.

1:09:07

They didn't do this amongst

1:09:09

the Red

1:09:10

Brigade. The Red Brigade actually

1:09:12

structured their praxis through Catholicism.

1:09:16

They actually structured

1:09:18

a lot of their praxis

1:09:20

and a lot of their early adherents, a lot of

1:09:22

their converts were Catholics,

1:09:25

even though—and I

1:09:28

wouldn't even say they were secular. I wouldn't

1:09:30

say they were secular materialists like a lot of Marxist-Leninists

1:09:33

were.

1:09:34

They probably weren't the most adherent

1:09:36

Catholics, but they were definitely not averse

1:09:40

to religion.

1:09:43

That's one of the contrasting things I've

1:09:45

seen with the left in Italy.

1:09:48

They also wanted their sort

1:09:50

of Marxist-Leninist expression to be

1:09:52

provincial,

1:09:54

meaning they wanted to remain confined

1:09:56

to Italy itself

1:09:58

and not to exist. expand

1:10:00

internationally. They did pay

1:10:02

lip service to a

1:10:04

lot of the liberation movements around the time,

1:10:07

a lot of the anti-colonialist at

1:10:09

the time, a lot to other

1:10:11

Marxist-Leninist factions

1:10:13

in

1:10:14

communist states.

1:10:15

But nevertheless, they really didn't care about

1:10:18

those. They only wanted Italy

1:10:19

itself to adopt

1:10:23

Marxist-Leninist as the dictatorship

1:10:26

of the proletariat. Other

1:10:28

central feature, I will say, of the left is

1:10:31

they had intellectual vanguards.

1:10:33

They had people like Anthony Negri,

1:10:36

who was outside

1:10:39

of Marx considered to be probably one of the

1:10:41

most premier

1:10:43

Marxist scholars.

1:10:45

Many people actually thought that Anthony

1:10:47

Negri was part of the

1:10:52

kidnapping of Aldo Moro. They

1:10:55

actually thought he was instrumental. He

1:10:58

openly advocated in most of his publications

1:11:01

that in order to

1:11:05

bring about a Marxist-Leninist republic,

1:11:09

and they wanted their own republic, they wanted

1:11:12

to make the North their Marxist-Leninist

1:11:15

republic,

1:11:17

that you had to strike

1:11:19

down the state through violence,

1:11:22

through armed revolution.

1:11:25

And as a matter of fact, I find

1:11:27

it interesting that they sort of utilized

1:11:29

Catholicism and,

1:11:33

I believe, liberation theology.

1:11:35

They used it as a means to justify a

1:11:37

lot of their violent acts.

1:11:40

You read a lot of Red

1:11:42

Brigade stuff. They had this fervor about

1:11:45

them to where they were religious. They

1:11:47

were almost apocalyptic. They were

1:11:50

practicing this sort of millenarian sort of

1:11:52

Christianity. And

1:11:54

they were integrating this with

1:11:56

Marxist-Leninist.

1:11:58

And I think this was a very interesting question. Psalms,

1:12:00

Anthony Negri. Now Anthony Negri,

1:12:02

of course, was let off.

1:12:04

He was not convicted of the

1:12:07

Aldo Moro kidnapping. And he,

1:12:09

guess what? Like most Red Brigade,

1:12:12

he went to France. There

1:12:15

again, it highlights another conspiracy theory.

1:12:17

Go ahead. Antonio Negri ended

1:12:20

up teaching right alongside Derrida

1:12:23

and Foucault and Deluce.

1:12:25

Yes. Yes. Yeah,

1:12:28

isn't that interesting? Isn't it interesting?

1:12:31

He did eventually go back to Italy and decided

1:12:34

to, you

1:12:35

know, he decided to like serve out the

1:12:37

rest of his remainder of his sentence in

1:12:39

Italy. And he's remained like free

1:12:43

to this day. But, you know, that

1:12:45

leads a lot of, I think a lot to a lot of people

1:12:47

in Italy that leads a lot of credence to the Hyperion

1:12:50

schools might be,

1:12:52

might be more valid as sort of

1:12:55

covers for, you know,

1:12:58

political extremism and political violence. Because it was also

1:13:01

alleged that Carlos

1:13:03

the Jacko, PLO, the RAF,

1:13:06

they were all getting trained at the Hyperion

1:13:09

schools.

1:13:11

There was this like networking,

1:13:13

just like there was networking with the extreme rights

1:13:17

and the neo-fascist, the neo-fascist, which

1:13:20

Stefano De La Chiay that I mentioned earlier

1:13:22

utilized himself to escape

1:13:25

a lot of the

1:13:27

investigations into the terrorist

1:13:29

plots, according to the Bologna

1:13:33

bombings,

1:13:34

which were probably the most devastating

1:13:36

out of all of the

1:13:38

terrorists and bombings and bombing attacks.

1:13:41

He was able to like, you know, be spirited

1:13:43

away somehow Latin America

1:13:46

into places, you know, I believe in Bolivia.

1:13:49

He set roots in Bolivia. And

1:13:52

that's kind of odd that they were able to like,

1:13:54

you know, transverse all across,

1:13:57

you know, Latin America. Maybe not, maybe

1:13:59

it wasn't.

1:13:59

so weird, but you mentioned

1:14:02

there wasn't no fascist international.

1:14:04

There may not have been a fascist international,

1:14:06

but I think there was kind of a

1:14:08

informal agreement

1:14:11

amongst the fascist than amongst

1:14:13

the extreme right.

1:14:15

I think DeGrelle

1:14:18

helped a lot with that. Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah.

1:14:20

And definitely in the fifties, it was

1:14:23

a lot.

1:14:24

It was a lot more. It's Corzani at the Corzani as

1:14:26

well. Yeah. In the fifties, people were

1:14:29

still scrambling and basically

1:14:32

hiding. And as the

1:14:34

years

1:14:35

went by, then

1:14:37

there can be a little more people

1:14:39

coming out of the shadows and

1:14:41

coming together and doing

1:14:44

some planning. Let

1:14:46

me mention after the Red Brigade, after they

1:14:48

were, after Marita Kagu was

1:14:51

killed, this,

1:14:56

of course, the leadership went over to Mario

1:14:58

Maretti. He was

1:15:00

the person that's believed that was the

1:15:03

person

1:15:03

behind the Aldo Moro cap,

1:15:06

you know, kept sort

1:15:08

of kidnapping. And

1:15:10

Aldo Mori himself is sort of

1:15:12

a, he was a beloved Christian Democrat

1:15:15

figure that still strikes

1:15:18

a lot of mystery to

1:15:20

this day amongst Italian

1:15:24

politicians and Italian citizens. They

1:15:26

wonder exactly what happened to Aldo

1:15:29

Moro on that fateful day, you

1:15:31

know, as he was kidnapped in 1978

1:15:34

and later found in the boot of a car in later

1:15:37

times. And he left

1:15:39

all these notes, all these notes in the apartment,

1:15:42

all these notes everywhere. And

1:15:44

he actually implicated, I think the current,

1:15:46

the

1:15:47

prime minister at

1:15:49

the time may have been

1:15:51

behind his killing.

1:15:54

Now, you're wondering how that he

1:15:56

was acquitted, of course, but there

1:15:58

was this other journalist by the name of Perco-Relly

1:16:02

that broke this story,

1:16:05

Carmine Perco-Relly,

1:16:08

that broke this story into

1:16:10

the mainstream

1:16:12

and

1:16:14

gave light to some of the political corruption

1:16:16

at the time. He was

1:16:17

fingered as the culprit,

1:16:22

the prime minister at the time of Aldo

1:16:25

Moro's

1:16:26

kidnapping. What's interesting

1:16:28

about Aldo Moro

1:16:29

is what made him such a controversial

1:16:32

figure is he wanted to integrate the Communist

1:16:34

Party

1:16:36

into the

1:16:38

mainstream of Italian society.

1:16:40

He wanted to integrate them into Italian society

1:16:42

at the same time.

1:16:44

He was also a big

1:16:46

proponent of the Arabs

1:16:49

in the Middle East crisis and

1:16:51

he pissed off quite a bit of Israeli

1:16:55

and probably Mossad as well. He

1:16:57

really made them angry about taking

1:16:59

a very pro-Arab stance. I

1:17:02

can imagine he probably didn't

1:17:04

make the US intelligence too happy about

1:17:06

that geopolitical stance

1:17:10

either. That

1:17:11

could be some implications

1:17:13

about Aldo Moro. It is a really

1:17:15

strange case. I will say that Aldo Moro

1:17:18

is kind of a noir for

1:17:20

if you're really into noir, if you're really into parapolitics

1:17:25

even, if you're into that, Aldo

1:17:27

Moro case has all the trappings of JFK

1:17:30

and it's very interesting. But

1:17:33

the guy that's agreed that did the

1:17:35

whole ordeal was Mario Moretti.

1:17:37

And

1:17:38

Mario Moretti was less idealistic

1:17:40

I would say than

1:17:42

Karushi and also Kagu.

1:17:47

He was a bit more less idealistic.

1:17:49

He was more into

1:17:51

violence, a little bit more into

1:17:53

kidnapping. That's saying

1:17:56

something, considering

1:17:59

what the Red Brigades were. were in too.

1:18:02

Let me also mention

1:18:04

that the Red Brigades ideologically

1:18:07

modeled themselves off

1:18:09

the Uruguayan movements

1:18:13

and also

1:18:15

the movements that were in South America at

1:18:17

the time. One of their cherished

1:18:19

sort of possessions was something called the Midi Manual

1:18:22

of the Urban Guerrilla, Garilla.

1:18:25

This was a very

1:18:27

popular pamphlet

1:18:30

and this is something they modeled a lot

1:18:32

of their kidnappings

1:18:34

off of. They

1:18:36

took a hardline, Maoist, Third

1:18:39

Worldist sort of stance into implementing

1:18:41

a lot of their measures. But

1:18:44

the Red Brigade didn't...

1:18:48

What's really surprising is despite

1:18:50

jailing the main

1:18:53

proponent of the Red Brigade and

1:18:55

killing his wife and lover,

1:18:58

they still did not lose steam

1:19:00

in Italy. People were doing terrorist

1:19:02

acts up until 2003.

1:19:07

There was still indications of

1:19:09

the Red Brigade's

1:19:11

terrorist acts. And many

1:19:13

of the Red Brigade, after they lost

1:19:15

a lot of their popularity in Italy, they fled... Oh,

1:19:18

they all fled to France. France

1:19:25

had this policy where it would welcome a lot

1:19:28

of former leftist terrorists

1:19:31

to where they would... If

1:19:33

they renounced their extremism

1:19:36

and their terrorism, they could easily get

1:19:39

French citizenship.

1:19:41

I guess that kind of leads more sort

1:19:43

of ammunition to the whole Hyperion language

1:19:48

schools thesis that

1:19:50

a lot of people have constructed. Yeah.

1:19:55

What's interesting is even in 2021, there

1:20:00

were still arrests. France arrested

1:20:02

seven leftist

1:20:05

militants. Georgia,

1:20:08

Pietro Stefani. Yeah,

1:20:11

I mean, there were, this

1:20:13

is still going on. They're still looking for these. I mean, the

1:20:16

thing is, is it it's in such recent

1:20:18

history that a lot of these people are just still

1:20:20

alive.

1:20:21

And, and Chi-I was, was

1:20:24

the neo-fascist terrorist

1:20:26

ideologue was, was actually still alive

1:20:28

until 2019. And,

1:20:31

you know, you could probably even like talk to him. And

1:20:34

that's the thing about it. Chi-I was never fingered

1:20:36

for any of the terrorist incidents

1:20:39

at all, because he was rather elusive

1:20:41

when he gave interviews

1:20:43

and probably had a lot of the state protection as

1:20:45

well. A

1:20:46

VI through the agenda press

1:20:48

and through the black orchestra. Well, he did

1:20:50

a lot of, he also did a lot of business in South

1:20:52

America. So he spent time down there. Yeah.

1:20:55

There actually is a point of his life in 75 to 77 that's like

1:20:57

unaccounted for that. We, we

1:21:00

don't really know. And that, that leads up to the Bologna

1:21:03

train bombing. And, and what's

1:21:06

interesting is

1:21:08

that the second generation, the craziest thing

1:21:10

about, the craziest thing about that bombing is, is

1:21:13

that up until that point, the

1:21:15

few years before, I mean,

1:21:17

you had the assassinate, you can't have an assassination

1:21:20

at all tomorrow, but it was just basically assassinations,

1:21:23

assassinations, assassinations, assassinations,

1:21:26

and they were, everyone

1:21:28

was just asleep. And then all of a sudden

1:21:30

just boom.

1:21:32

It's cause the Aldo Moro kidnapping

1:21:34

really opened their eyes. The Piazza

1:21:36

Fontana bombing was important,

1:21:38

I think to Italy, but it was like such, there was such

1:21:41

distance between the two,

1:21:43

but they started to pay attention when

1:21:45

a very prominent and beloved

1:21:47

elected official started getting

1:21:50

kidnapped and ended up

1:21:52

killed. And you know what's weird about the Aldo

1:21:54

Moro kiss, and I, I'm going to go

1:21:56

here in speculative territory.

1:21:59

I'm sorry if I sound, I'm

1:22:02

not trying to sound schizoid here, but this is actually

1:22:05

practiced in Italy itself

1:22:08

amongst the politicians, supposedly

1:22:10

amongst the educated politicians.

1:22:13

When he was missing,

1:22:15

they tried to do a seance

1:22:17

to find out where he was. I kid

1:22:19

you not.

1:22:20

And a prominent Italian

1:22:23

investigator, now politician,

1:22:25

he tried to do a seance to

1:22:27

summon the spirit of

1:22:31

Aldo Moro. That

1:22:33

was something that really happened on the congressional

1:22:37

floor.

1:22:38

That's 1978, people. Yeah, 1978.

1:22:42

That

1:22:44

was going on in Italian politics.

1:22:46

That's crazy. That's probably

1:22:48

one of the most craziest things about Italian

1:22:52

politics itself.

1:22:53

I didn't know there was some of that superstition

1:22:56

that was in

1:23:00

Italian politics.

1:23:02

Well, talk about the Bologna

1:23:04

Massacre, and then we'll start

1:23:06

wrapping up, and we'll see if we can

1:23:09

pick up

1:23:10

another time and

1:23:14

do a little bit more. OK, the Bologna

1:23:16

Massacre was largely

1:23:18

a train station.

1:23:20

It was this nexus

1:23:22

that was going between Rome and

1:23:25

Milan.

1:23:26

By the way, that was not the only bombing. There

1:23:28

also was the Italicus bombings

1:23:30

as well. But

1:23:32

the people they believed was behind that,

1:23:35

they speculated for a long time that it

1:23:37

might have been Carlos the Jackal,

1:23:39

considering it coincided with a lot of the

1:23:42

sort of violence in Rome with

1:23:44

the PLO at

1:23:46

the time. But however,

1:23:48

and that was decided in 2005 by

1:23:50

some investigators, however, it's

1:23:52

believed that the

1:23:55

Italian neo-fascist group, the

1:23:57

second generation neo-fascist

1:23:58

group,

1:23:59

group called NAR and I'm not

1:24:02

going to even try to pronounce that. The square

1:24:04

of Matei revolutionare.

1:24:11

Yes, revolutionare. Yeah,

1:24:14

yeah, I just believe they were behind the

1:24:16

corporates behind the bombing and they largely

1:24:18

were the people that were, they

1:24:20

were the largely

1:24:22

the people that were isolated for, you

1:24:24

know, for investigation for that. It was they

1:24:27

were, I don't know if they were cleared or not of

1:24:29

that bombing, but it was largely speculated

1:24:31

that

1:24:32

the guy that was behind that was either

1:24:34

Stefano De La Chiay or a guy named Mario

1:24:37

Tuti or

1:24:40

which by the way has a connection to Freda

1:24:43

and a pro Libyan fascist

1:24:45

group, which,

1:24:47

you know, there was a whole network, I think, that Freda

1:24:50

and some of the people like his associates

1:24:52

like Claudio, Molti, they

1:24:55

sort of formed this like pro-Qaddafi

1:24:58

sort of group. So

1:25:00

Qaddafi was dabbling both in sort of the left and the

1:25:02

right at the time. So I was like, believe

1:25:04

that those were the main corporates and the whole Bologna

1:25:06

bombing. Yeah,

1:25:09

it was, I think, initially

1:25:12

it was Francesca

1:25:14

Mombro and Valerio Fiorevanti.

1:25:19

They got life in prison. And then in 2017, in 2007, they confirmed,

1:25:22

they

1:25:29

looked at Luigi,

1:25:32

the C.F. Vardini,

1:25:35

and who had close ties to

1:25:38

Terza. This is one that I have

1:25:40

trouble pronouncing, Terza

1:25:42

Posizione.

1:25:43

Posizione, yes. Third position. The

1:25:46

third position. Yeah, third position. He

1:25:48

got 30 years, 30

1:25:50

years in prison for that one.

1:25:52

And one more thing before we wrap it up, I want

1:25:55

to mention that, and

1:25:57

this is like for further, maybe for

1:25:59

a further show, but there was a particular

1:26:02

Roman

1:26:03

crime syndicate. If

1:26:05

people are not familiar, Rome is the way it's structured.

1:26:08

It has

1:26:09

these different gangs in its city.

1:26:12

I think it was called the Banda.

1:26:14

The Banda were

1:26:17

largely considered responsible,

1:26:19

also potentially for

1:26:21

the bombings as well. They also tried

1:26:24

to implicate them

1:26:25

potentially in Aldo Moro kidnapping

1:26:28

because they

1:26:29

actually knew, the guy

1:26:31

who was the leader of the Banda in Rome actually

1:26:34

knew where Aldo Moro was and

1:26:36

tried to contact the Italian

1:26:38

authorities, but they disregarded his tip,

1:26:41

which I said, I mentioned earlier,

1:26:44

it's not an unusual function in

1:26:47

Italian politics to use the underworld.

1:26:51

Well, I mean, in the future,

1:26:53

I mean, I think we could do a dedicated

1:26:56

episode to propaganda do.

1:26:58

Yeah, I'd like to. I didn't mention that, but

1:27:00

there's a lot into that. I didn't know if you wanted me

1:27:02

to go into like conspiracy territory, but yeah,

1:27:04

I'd love to do that. Well, I mean, is

1:27:08

it really conspiracy territory? Not

1:27:10

really, but I mean, there's some people that consider

1:27:12

it to be speculative.

1:27:14

Sure. But they consider glaudio

1:27:16

to be speculative, even though there's like, there's the

1:27:18

Westmore papers, there's a lot of like evidence

1:27:21

that it's it did exist.

1:27:22

Oh, man. Well,

1:27:26

before I go off your Pete, let me ask you, why do

1:27:28

you think people in our milieu don't like

1:27:30

to tackle glaudio? Because

1:27:32

whenever I bring it up, there's

1:27:34

there's a lot of trepidation that is met

1:27:36

in this milieu about glaudio.

1:27:39

What do you think they dislike it?

1:27:40

I don't know.

1:27:43

Having

1:27:46

maybe having some kind of sympathy for

1:27:49

sympathy for it so they don't want to get it.

1:27:53

Nobody wants to believe that, you know, people

1:27:55

that they may have had a.

1:28:00

you know, may

1:28:03

have leaned towards, you know, given a choice,

1:28:07

was operating and being controlled by,

1:28:09

you know, the West, by the

1:28:12

CIA, which,

1:28:14

you know, I mean, we basically know who

1:28:16

controls the CIA. So

1:28:18

I want to say also, this doesn't implicate,

1:28:21

you know, neo fascism or implicate

1:28:23

national socialist that if that's your particular

1:28:26

practice, and that's your political

1:28:28

expression.

1:28:29

I will say that it does sort of show that

1:28:32

fascism and national socialism probably

1:28:34

until it has a proper rejuvenation

1:28:37

in society is largely a corpse

1:28:39

that in my opinion was used by the CIA and

1:28:41

used by the

1:28:43

US, the US, you

1:28:45

know, they also like the Italian even the state department,

1:28:47

it shows kind of that it was dead ideologically.

1:28:50

But

1:28:51

I mean, I don't want

1:28:53

to never mind. I'm not going to say I'm going

1:28:55

to say. Well,

1:28:57

there were people who tried to keep it alive.

1:29:00

Yeah.

1:29:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:29:04

Try to keep it alive. And, you

1:29:05

know, it just, it was just

1:29:07

too much, you know, what Thomas calls the

1:29:10

Nuremberg regime. I mean, we,

1:29:12

you know,

1:29:12

we still, normicon

1:29:17

conservatives suffer

1:29:19

when they say something just a little bit

1:29:22

right when they get, they get shot

1:29:24

down. So that's how

1:29:26

far it's gone.

1:29:27

It's kind of, let's

1:29:30

say,

1:29:33

that's a hundred pound. It's

1:29:35

a fifth rail. It's a fifth

1:29:37

rail. Well, it's, you know, it's also

1:29:40

right now, it seems like an impossibility to

1:29:42

even, you know,

1:29:43

it's a challenge or to even just

1:29:46

talk. I mean, why couldn't they do it again? My question

1:29:48

is about gladiator and all this and I'll let you go, but why

1:29:50

couldn't they do it again in places like Ukraine?

1:29:53

Like I've been met with a lot of like a score

1:29:56

and because I said that potentially they're,

1:29:59

you know, Ukraine could. another glaudio, no 2.0

1:30:02

or 3.0, depending on how many

1:30:05

you believe there really are in

1:30:07

speculation. I wouldn't worry too much

1:30:09

about scorn. What is scorn? Scorn

1:30:12

is what

1:30:13

people in the comments

1:30:15

on Odyssey and Bitchute. Yeah.

1:30:17

They think I'm crazy for just even

1:30:19

suggesting that as a possibility.

1:30:22

Yeah. Okay. I'm like, okay. Yeah,

1:30:24

whatever. They're so smart. They're

1:30:26

so smart. It's like

1:30:28

I said, I've

1:30:30

said this before,

1:30:32

the comments on your videos, that's where

1:30:34

intellect goes to die.

1:30:36

It's

1:30:39

all the people who are sitting out there and just

1:30:43

it's like the fans at a sports,

1:30:46

watching

1:30:52

a sporting event, screaming at

1:30:55

the athletes and saying, oh, I could do it better and

1:30:57

everything. Okay. Well, sure. Well,

1:31:00

let's see you do it. Yeah. Monday morning quarterbacks.

1:31:02

Yeah. We'll see you do it. But tell

1:31:04

people how they can find

1:31:06

your work deep down there in the recesses

1:31:09

of.

1:31:10

Okay. First of all, I want to thank Pete for

1:31:12

bringing me on to a show to discuss the

1:31:16

years of lead. I enjoyed this discussion.

1:31:18

I love discussing this topic. If

1:31:21

there's anybody else out there that wants to discuss this

1:31:23

topic with me, I'm free. My

1:31:27

podcast is Surviving Vymerica,

1:31:29

which I will admit it's not the most

1:31:32

polished podcast. It's at times

1:31:35

I've had to work with what I have in

1:31:37

terms of guests and in terms of technical, in terms

1:31:41

of technical ability,

1:31:44

let's just say not on my part, but

1:31:46

on part of the YouTube

1:31:49

and

1:31:50

due to my limited resources.

1:31:53

Nevertheless, I like

1:31:56

the low scale production

1:31:58

because it does show a certain authentic.

1:31:59

It hearkens back to sort of

1:32:03

like the, the ray, the pirate radio days.

1:32:06

And nevertheless, you can find me at surviving

1:32:08

by America on Odyssey on

1:32:11

bit shoot and also on YouTube

1:32:14

as well. And hopefully Pete will

1:32:16

put my a YouTube in the descriptor.

1:32:19

Yeah. If you just send

1:32:21

me whatever links you want me to include

1:32:23

and I'll include them when I release this.

1:32:25

And again, I want to thank Pete for giving me a chance

1:32:27

to speak on, you know, years of lead, one of my,

1:32:29

one of my favorite subjects because it has

1:32:32

so much, I think relevance

1:32:34

to the political terrain

1:32:36

we're going into in the modern

1:32:38

era.

1:32:39

It's also very European. I mean, it's,

1:32:41

it really shines

1:32:43

a light on European politics on,

1:32:45

on

1:32:48

the fact that right

1:32:50

wing, right wing and left wing are

1:32:52

different in, in Europe or from

1:32:54

whatever, you know, we want to call, I mean, there's just,

1:32:57

it really shows that, you

1:32:59

know,

1:33:00

that language

1:33:04

and labels, they're

1:33:07

inter, they're interchangeable

1:33:09

and they're, they mean different

1:33:11

things in different parts of the world. Yep.

1:33:14

There's a lot more nuance in Europe. I can tell you that. That's

1:33:16

for sure. Thanks Patrick. Thank you.