0:00

We're doing it. We're literally doing it

0:02

differently from everybody else. As

0:07

a matter of fact, moving forward from this

0:09

point on, I will not make a

0:11

reference to your PMD. Ready to get

0:13

into it? Yeah. Alright, we're going team

0:15

by team. I would be very careful if I

0:17

had to lean. Am I going to get sued? You got legal

0:19

on this? Let's send you out on the

0:21

right, though. PFF sucks. Have a great day.

0:23

Boom! Welcome

0:33

in to the PFF NFL Podcast, Steve

0:35

Pellezolo, Sam Monson, coming to you from

0:38

Radio Media Row here in, where

0:41

are we? Las Vegas. Las Vegas, yeah.

0:43

It's Friday. Mandalay Bay Convention Center. It

0:47

has been a long month this week.

0:49

It has, yep. Here in Vegas. And

0:51

it's our Friday edition of PFF NFL

0:53

Podcast. Yeah. How

0:56

you doing? Yeah, I'm alive.

0:59

Just... We haven't even done anything crazy, and I'm

1:01

exhausted. Right. But it's been a good week here.

1:04

I had a nice debate with myself this morning about

1:06

going to the gym. Oh, yeah, who won? Not me.

1:10

Didn't win the day, but I did shave my head, so... We

1:12

won the day on Tuesday. We went

1:14

to the gym day one. Yeah. Have not

1:16

been back since. New. And maybe

1:18

tomorrow. Maybe tomorrow's the day, Saturday morning. Maybe this afternoon.

1:20

Maybe I'll win the battle later. You never know. So,

1:23

yeah, fun little week here. We've got NFL honors was last

1:25

night. Yep. Somewhere

1:27

around here in Vegas. We didn't go to the red carpet. Went

1:30

to bed instead. But we're going

1:32

to talk about the awards, little awards reaction. We

1:34

had news yesterday. Mike Zimmer being hired

1:36

as the defensive coordinator going back to

1:38

the Dallas Cowboys. And

1:40

we have Dr. Alan Sills,

1:43

the chief medical officer

1:46

of the NFL. We put this on YouTube already, but we're going

1:48

to stick that at the end of the show here talking to

1:50

Dr. Alan Sills. We

1:52

had a very good discussion with him. Yeah, we had him

1:54

on last year, and he's actually a really interesting person to

1:56

talk to. We

1:58

asked him, give him some hard history. The question? you

2:00

know? great idea. How come you're not following

2:02

the safety? You know direction and he had

2:04

some pretty good answer. Yapping about rule changes

2:06

may be leading to more injuries is the

2:08

Nfl? I did say this might be getting

2:10

a little clean. You know, get the money

2:12

and the out thousand more injuries or get

2:14

into that later in the show. But let's

2:16

start with the yacht. the Nfl Award show.

2:18

What was your. Job of

2:21

Biggest surprise coming out of last night's

2:23

ah I'm were there at door that

2:25

many surprises I don't think. I guess

2:27

the comeback player the year one is

2:29

probably the most surprising. Who are the

2:31

fact that Lamar Jackson Zombie was one

2:34

vote away from being unanimous? I mean

2:36

I think we all expected him to

2:38

be mvp for to be forty nine

2:40

to one felt a little enough to

2:42

dominant do with the that like the

2:44

one with a wonderful thing that define

2:47

this year was that there was no

2:49

you know obvious unanimous. Consensus Mvp

2:51

for basically the entirety the year and

2:53

then a Forty Niners game happen and

2:55

everyone when Art Lamar did it and

2:58

be be released. Everyone Forty nine of

3:00

the fifty people assume I have one

3:02

one of the fifty an hour Saw

3:04

the list as it's it's it's decent

3:06

list overall. Plus a manual auto. It's

3:08

not. One, it's ah,

3:11

it's a good list of people in your one

3:13

of vanquishes. I would. Yeah,

3:15

it, it was it. It was weird

3:17

because the Mvp race was completely wide

3:20

open minded. Turned into one of the

3:22

most lopsided most of history and it

3:24

again, I'm not in the Martin, deserve

3:26

it or anything. I was fine, but

3:28

I don't think it should have been

3:30

as dominant. I thought there would be

3:32

more first place votes. It became very

3:34

narrative driven towards the end his Le

3:36

Marquis happy and in the Dolphins game

3:39

particularly that putting out of democracy like

3:41

property was a few weeks away from

3:43

being a consensus Mvp and he got

3:45

zero First place was. Visiting.

3:47

Nine second place alongside his his. His

3:50

candidacy was destroyed the day that

3:52

Lamar's was built. Up

3:55

genetic I think there's some the

3:57

comeback player the Year award My

3:59

initial. The way and that your flacco

4:01

getting it over to more Hamlin in probably

4:03

the Lamar, some with a few or first

4:05

place votes. Yes, we'll talk about why that

4:07

is. I mean we

4:10

we joke on hear about how

4:12

even feel we are in the

4:14

we try to bring some some

4:16

my level headed analysis here. If you

4:18

hate that people can't stand. But

4:21

you know you. I think that nothing

4:23

sums up. The recently by

4:25

a stuff than the comeback player the

4:27

Year award. And maybe Lamar Jackson.

4:29

Having Forty nine votes model your congressional march out

4:32

with your second Mbps to time as a the

4:34

youngest player to have an Mvp. And to be

4:36

clear, be as one of the Forty nine people

4:38

that voted for my you have to worry that

4:41

him should be the envy do I'm just surprised

4:43

that it was Forty Nine. I agree with you

4:45

and but the one person who voted against his

4:47

tickets and hate is Erin Shots runaway football outsiders

4:50

now of Var F T and say the noise

4:52

I believe. I've sat is like

4:54

defended himself. Why did he have Josh, Allen

4:56

Forest and Dak Prescott? Second I believe in

4:58

it's like do I thought more people would

5:01

have that take I'm just stand with Aaron

5:03

at least having I'm not necessarily be exact

5:05

take what I thought more people would go

5:08

down that path. Aaron was one of those

5:10

people who wrote off his Ah awards and

5:12

is a T based he has fallen ride

5:14

for that for that all pro and for

5:17

as wards wrote the whole thing up in

5:19

an article explained his logic a nice and

5:21

everything and not I know mean. Yesterday.

5:23

I mean he did this. you know weeks ago

5:25

when you put in the balance and the other

5:28

people either on his sister contrary and take drive

5:30

people to your website. The clicks like the man

5:32

wrote of of weeks ago I didn't know was

5:34

gonna be controversial at the time he wrote it

5:36

off. I didn't vigorous him before you had a

5:39

one item for fifty voters don't get together. I

5:41

like raise their hand at the top secret. I

5:43

would say like if you want to signify the

5:45

guy with reading his explanation if you don't want

5:47

to, if you think he still full that's fine.

5:50

That's your prerogative I think is wrong. I voted

5:52

for the other guys. What. you know

5:54

he's not doing that just to drive likes to

5:56

his website with you wrote this of weeks ago

5:58

if you wanna go read his explanation over his

6:00

explanation, you know, but it's his opinion

6:03

and I don't think it's a crazy one. So

6:05

congrats to Lamar Jackson on the MVP. I think

6:07

that was well-deserved, well-earned. We're just, you know, breaking

6:09

down the breakdown of the votes.

6:12

I want to talk about Comeback Player of the

6:14

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questions. By the way, as

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I did the other day when Dan Marino walked by,

7:11

I will point out if I see somebody really important

7:13

or fun or whatever it might be. Like Greg Olson

7:15

right there. We just talked to Greg Olson. We did.

7:17

We gave him kudos. We said, good job Greg, you

7:19

do a great job on the broadcast. And

7:22

he said, hey thanks for all

7:24

you do. Yeah. To Sam and Steve. He

7:26

did. Greg thinks we do a good job too. Yeah. And

7:29

one of the guys with him was like, hey, big fan of

7:31

the show. Absolutely. Probably listening right now. So

7:33

that was great. I'm running into people over

7:35

here. So come back player of the year award. I

7:37

thought it was a lot. I thought this was like

7:40

the easiest award ever. Demar Hamlin came back from death,

7:42

had the most first place votes, but

7:44

did not win the award in favor of

7:47

Joe Flacco. Interesting. So usually the AP

7:49

has only been doing this for a couple of

7:51

years where they've awarded a point system, right? You

7:54

first place, second place, third place, you get different

7:56

points for each one. So it isn't just

7:58

who got more first place votes. that's the

8:00

way it used to be done now, it's who

8:02

got the most points when you add in

8:04

essentially a ranked choice system. I think generally

8:06

speaking that is an improvement and a good

8:09

way of doing it. Eventually we're gonna get

8:11

an MVP much like this

8:13

who wins MVP with fewer first place votes

8:15

than the guy that didn't win MVP and

8:17

that's gonna cause all kinds of chaos. I

8:20

do think however that in this very

8:22

very specific instance the

8:25

ranked choice system probably ends up producing

8:28

a bad result. Now it

8:30

was very close. Joe Flacco has 151 points, Damar

8:32

Hamlin has 140 but eight

8:35

more people thought

8:37

that Damar Hamlin was the comeback player of

8:39

the year than Joe Flacco but

8:41

because of the nature of his comeback, right? And

8:43

you know, comeback player of the year is a

8:45

very like nebulous, you know, difficult to define award

8:47

which is the whole point. My favorite award, Sam.

8:49

Right, I know and a lot of people's which

8:51

is why it's very difficult to define and articulate

8:53

and all those kinds of things. But basically

8:56

people with Damar Hamlin fell into one of

8:58

two camps. Either they were like, well he's

9:00

clearly the comeback player of the year the

9:02

same way Alex Smith was when he came

9:04

back from almost having his leg amputated. It

9:06

didn't matter how much he played. It didn't

9:08

matter whether he played well. Simply stepping back

9:10

on an NFL field after what he went

9:12

through makes him, right, makes him comeback player

9:15

of the year. You either fell into that

9:17

camp, which you and I are both in,

9:19

or you fell into the camp of saying

9:22

he wasn't even good and he didn't play when he came

9:24

back. Therefore how can he be comeback player of the year?

9:26

We need to give it to a guy that played and

9:28

played well. Now, so

9:31

anyone in that camp basically didn't even have Hamlin

9:33

on the ballot, right? They're like, he's not comeback

9:35

player of the year at all. I'm going Baker

9:37

Mayfield one, Joe Flacco two, Tua Tugovailo with three,

9:39

you know, whatever. So I think

9:41

a rank choice system hurts Damar Hamlin's

9:44

case in an unusual way that is

9:46

usually not applicable. Right,

9:49

you're either all in or all out when

9:52

it comes to Damar Hamlin. Now that being said,

9:54

I do think it's vaguely funny that seven people

9:56

of the voters had him second.

9:59

Seven people. Parker there's and said that's

10:01

a really impressive come back. The man died

10:03

on the field. you know we didn't know

10:05

if used to have brain damage for like

10:07

several days afterwards. We we certainly didn't produce

10:10

going to play again the on all the

10:12

way back he played in Nfl game he

10:14

played me or whatever was fifteen. twenty snaps

10:16

of the regular season more the playoffs. Really

10:18

impressive comebacks but it's not quite as impressive

10:20

as just an old man coming off the

10:22

couch and playing mid ball for six days.

10:26

Seven people came to that conclusion. Fourteen

10:28

Report Sixteen Fourteen people came to the

10:30

conclusion that it's really impressive, but it's

10:33

less impressive: an old man flock over

10:35

six games and one other dude like

10:37

Stafford coming back from being hurt for

10:39

a while. I don't understand

10:41

that has a process like those people have

10:44

some questions for. I completely agree with you

10:46

on the all or nothing aspects of this

10:48

affecting Hamlin in the award. I

10:50

think this is a good time for

10:52

me to rail against the ah, the

10:55

recently bias of the human brain and

10:57

courage news cycle that we live in.

11:00

You. Know. What if? Hypothetically

11:02

some are Hamlin had the on field

11:04

incident and say i don't know November

11:06

and was able to come back by

11:09

in the end of the summer right

11:11

within the same season. With. That

11:13

seems your vote. What was from the

11:15

fact that he. Did. It in

11:17

two months vs So Mckay that have changed

11:19

for it's either it's I think it's a

11:21

Flacco specific thing really. even if the fact

11:23

of Flacco run, hop and right have you

11:25

haven't right at the and added knows when

11:27

into the playoffs it also wins the award

11:29

probably every edit any other year. as much

11:31

team off the couch when let a playoff

11:33

with the point being it it's it's the

11:36

fact that it happened acutely at the end

11:38

of the season right when the votes are

11:40

going in. Vast The reasons he buys a

11:42

work because we take Flacco out of this

11:44

Hamlin beats Baker Mayfield who had what is

11:46

just a conventional. combat right my bad

11:48

last year he wasn't expecting starter and

11:50

this year he came in and played

11:52

well at bakeries the conventional comeback player

11:54

of the year story and in a

11:57

year without joe flacco and to more

11:59

hamlin better Baker Mayfield wins comeback player

12:01

of the year, over Matthew Stafford, over

12:03

Tua and his concussions, over Breece Hall,

12:05

Brock Peridee, Calvin Ridley, blah, blah, blah.

12:08

Baker is your conventional comeback player of

12:10

the year. Damar Hamlin is

12:12

a once ever story, so Damar

12:14

Hamlin trumps the usual comeback player

12:17

story of Baker Mayfield, and

12:19

then only Joe Flacco rocking up with the

12:21

last month of the season and going on

12:24

this acute run into the playoffs, like

12:27

jacks the whole thing sideways and the

12:29

recency bias makes him comeback player of the

12:31

year. It's recency bias in favor of Flacco,

12:33

it happened late, but also against

12:35

Hamlin because that happened last

12:38

year, in January. Right, but I think it's

12:40

only when both of those

12:42

happen at the same time is it effective. But this

12:44

is what's driving me crazy, man. Like, do

12:46

people forget football shut down for

12:49

a few days? Yeah. Like,

12:51

we didn't even know if there was gonna be

12:53

games, the whole playoff structure got changed, they canceled

12:55

a game, like they canceled the Bills-Bengals game. They

12:58

didn't restart it. Which is like the first time

13:00

ever that happened, right? Right. It's

13:02

the first game that's been abandoned ever. We had

13:04

to do multiple podcasts that week, you

13:07

know, trying to make sense of things, and we couldn't

13:09

talk really about anything else, right? Football stopped, the

13:11

sports world kinda stopped a little bit for a

13:13

few days to kind of figure out what was

13:15

going on here. And eventually, you

13:17

know, you came back and there

13:20

was more normalcy after that, but it was just an amazing

13:22

story, every step of the way people wanna know, you

13:24

know, how's Hamlin doing? And

13:27

then even just like standing up and taking a

13:29

first step and waving to people and all these

13:31

different things. Like that happened within the last calendar

13:33

year when these votes were placed, and

13:35

we still forgot it, because

13:37

Joe Flacco played five games. To

13:40

me, it's just more microcosm of how the

13:43

new cycle in our mind works to like the

13:45

last thing that we saw. And also because he's-

13:47

Not the most impactful thing that we saw. Because

13:50

his recovery has been so complete, and he's gotten

13:52

back onto the field, and onto an NFL field,

13:54

something that most people never achieve in the first

13:56

place. People assume that was always

13:59

a given, right? At the

14:01

time, like when it happened, they got him, you know,

14:03

they got his heart starting again, they got him into

14:05

the hospital. He was in a

14:07

coma for like a couple of days. When he

14:09

was in the coma, a lot of medical professionals

14:12

were saying for the amount of time that he

14:14

was down, his brain was starved from oxygen. There

14:16

is a very good chance that he is brain

14:18

damaged at this point and may not live a

14:21

normal life at all, let alone come back and

14:23

play in an NFL game. So we can't like

14:25

revise history and go, ah, once

14:27

they got it going again. But once he undied

14:29

on the field, it was all smooth sailing from that

14:31

point on, right? He was just a special teamer. Right.

14:34

It was all easy for men. Like, it was

14:36

a very real, we did not think that this

14:38

guy was going to play football again. To me

14:40

it is just a microcosm of the world we

14:43

are in right now and the way people react.

14:45

I mean again, a year ago before the AFC

14:47

championship, there was discussion that well, if Joe Burrow

14:49

beats Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow is the best quarterback

14:51

in the NFL. Right. Now it

14:53

is like Patrick Mahomes leads the Chiefs to 17 points,

14:55

plays really well by the way. Like this,

14:57

because they made it to the next Super Bowl, Patrick Mahomes is

14:59

the greatest quarterback of all time now because this game happened.

15:01

And it is like we just can't have a normal,

15:05

Matthew Stafford won the Super Bowl, put him in the

15:07

Hall of Fame, there is no other way, there is

15:09

no middle ground. It is not just a very good

15:11

quarterback, everything is at the extreme

15:13

right now. Yep, there is no normal anymore. Anyway,

15:18

the most we are ever going to talk about the comeback player of the

15:20

year award. Cool. I hope.

15:22

Defensive player of the year, Sam. Yeah. You

15:26

had a good day yesterday overall. Miles

15:28

Garrett won. I have not seen

15:30

you smile in, I do not know, forever.

15:33

Yeah. And you were smiling. We had a

15:35

good lunch yesterday, we had a good lunch. You have. That

15:38

night, Miles Garrett wins defensive player of the year.

15:40

Yeah. Not because

15:42

you are biased, but because you just, you know. I was

15:44

simply. You think the right guy won. I do think the

15:46

right guy won and I was simply happy that my mentions

15:49

were not quite the dumpster fire they would have been had

15:51

TJ Watt won. You

15:54

know, it was close. Very close. Miles

15:56

Garrett, 23 first place votes compared to 19 for

15:58

TJ Watt, 7 for Michael Parse. which results

16:00

in 165 points for Garrett, 140 for TJ Watt, and then

16:02

89 for Micah Parsons. Micah

16:07

Parsons, by the way, who came out and

16:10

said that Miles Garrett was defensive player of

16:12

the year. Like a guy that other people,

16:14

largely Steelers fans, have been saying, Micah Parsons

16:16

has a stronger case for defensive player of

16:19

the year than Miles Garrett. Like, look at

16:21

the numbers. Garrett, or Micah Parsons came out

16:23

and said, that's a stupid take. Garrett was

16:25

the best defensive player this season. Watch the

16:27

tape, don't just look at stats. So, look,

16:30

Steelers fans have been doing that for months already. It's like,

16:32

ah, look at the stats. Garrett only had, you know, one

16:34

stack at the end of the season, yada, yada, yada. The

16:38

players, the AP voters, Micah

16:40

Parsons, people watching the tape recognize that

16:42

Miles Garrett was a dominant force, even

16:44

if he wasn't in the playoff game,

16:48

and therefore deserved defensive player of the year. The,

16:51

uh, my quick summation on that is,

16:53

you know, because we've

16:55

been defending this for a while. Yeah.

16:57

It's not that we're not downplaying the

16:59

importance of the sack on

17:01

the, uh, for the defense. Right. Sacks

17:04

are awesome. The two things, the two

17:06

points I want to make is there's other ways to

17:08

create production in the NFL than any

17:10

traditional stat that keeps being posted out

17:13

there. There are other ways besides tackles,

17:15

sacks, tackles for losses, passes defense, or whatever

17:17

else is being thrown out there. There's other

17:19

ways to provide production, and

17:21

then, yes, the sack is very important, and

17:25

usually when you win very quickly,

17:28

you're either going to get those sacks or maybe someone

17:30

else on your team is, or it's going to force

17:32

an incompletion or an interception. All that stuff matters. All

17:34

you can do is isolate what the player brings to

17:36

the table, and I agree, Miles Garrett,

17:38

the defensive player of the year. Yeah. And

17:40

the final point I'll make about this is

17:43

it is not disrespect or hate

17:45

to suggest that a man was

17:47

in the top five best defensive

17:49

players in the NFL in a

17:51

given season. Not disrespect. Right. So

17:53

nobody is saying TJ feels disrespected.

17:56

He's upset. Right. TJ feels upset.

17:58

Nobody is saying he had a bad year. Nobody's

18:00

saying he wasn't good. Nobody's saying

18:02

he wasn't great. We're simply saying he was

18:04

not defensive player of the year, as by

18:06

the way were the players, as by the

18:08

way has medical Parsons said It

18:11

is fact now. I think TJ Watt is great.

18:13

He is an awesome player. Correct. I

18:16

think the voters got it right though. Yeah. Other

18:19

interesting stories coming out of the voting,

18:21

CJ Stroud, AP offensive rookie of the

18:24

year. Also almost unanimous. And teammate Will

18:26

Anderson, AP defensive rookie of the year,

18:28

the number two and three pick of

18:31

the NFL draft. That one was closer. People

18:33

are looking for apologies from me. Yep. And

18:36

you, in a moment of

18:38

weakness, while we were at dinner last night, saying,

18:42

you know, maybe it's justified. The

18:44

Will Anderson trade is justified. And I can't

18:47

believe you said that. I apologize. Based off

18:49

a defensive rookie of the year award,

18:51

just because he got awarded things like

18:53

nothing's changed since the season. We saw

18:56

Will Anderson play. He was, he was awesome. At

18:58

the time we said, Will Anderson probably going to be awesome. Big

19:00

fan of Will Anderson, one of my favorite players in the draft.

19:03

So I don't know. My take hasn't changed,

19:05

but you apparently have changed because he has

19:08

an award now. And you think trade justified.

19:10

Yeah, I do. I do think

19:12

trade has been justified. I think they got it right.

19:14

They, you can ultimately,

19:17

because we don't know what any of these players

19:19

are going to be, right? There is an, there

19:21

is an unknown element to all of this, which

19:23

is what are you going to get with the

19:26

picks? And that's why we focus

19:28

on process over results

19:30

because you never are entirely sure.

19:32

And the chances are, as

19:35

we were saying, your argument, our argument was the

19:37

chances are there's no way that these players can

19:39

be good enough to justify the picks that they

19:42

gave up. Because you're

19:44

talking more players and they're high value. And

19:46

if you sort of plot out the averages

19:48

and the probabilities, they're better off staying with the

19:50

picks that they had and sacrificing

19:52

Will Anderson Jr. But

19:56

CJ Shout has been offensive

19:58

rookie of the year and looked like one of the

20:00

best quarterback prospects enter the league ever

20:02

in terms of his immediate performance he's

20:04

not a part of the trade-up discussion

20:06

though well Anderson has won defensive rookie

20:08

of the year and looks like an

20:10

extremely good defensive player so now what

20:12

you're looking at and so the third

20:14

element of that is the pick that they gave up or now

20:16

one of the picks they've given up because

20:19

they were so damn good right out of the gate is

20:21

what 26 overall so they are

20:23

going to have given up 26 overall

20:25

33 last year to

20:29

do to make that move I'm okay

20:31

with that 26 plus

20:33

33 equals Will Anderson I believe

20:35

that now has been

20:37

proven to be a fair trade

20:39

therefore I apologize for saying that

20:42

the Texans were bad stupid and shouldn't have done it

20:45

they got it right that's very nice for

20:47

you really are good the ends justify the means

20:49

and the ends were proven correct at this point

20:51

I still think it was iffy process but if

20:53

you're gonna have look sometimes you're gonna put up

20:56

you're gonna we're in Vegas sometimes you're gonna place a

20:59

bet that does not have a high chance of

21:01

coming off if it comes off fair play

21:03

tip to the cap tip of the cap

21:05

fair fucks to you fair fucks to the

21:08

Texans I'm

21:11

uh I'm still kind of in wait

21:13

and see mode not that you're not happy as a Texans

21:15

fan I will also say with

21:18

the history of trading up for non quarterbacks

21:20

not being great if you're gonna trade up

21:23

for a 99th percentile model

21:25

player 98th percentile model player like Will Anderson

21:27

I do believe your hit rates gonna be

21:29

higher and I think that's that is a

21:31

good play so yeah I always

21:33

said Will Anderson's gonna be an excellent player but

21:36

I I don't think this I don't

21:38

think you feel as great as the Texans

21:40

were this year getting things back on

21:42

track and winning the division winning

21:45

a playoff game I don't

21:47

think you feel the effects of this trade until

21:51

maybe a year or two from now because you

21:53

know we did a mock draft yesterday from the

21:55

Cabana over at the Cabana at Circa and

21:57

they have a pick at 25 where they can get it you know

21:59

starting California 25 or 26? 20, whatever it is. Then

22:02

the 20s. They have a pick where they can

22:04

get a starting caliber player. Even

22:07

better. I apologize even more. So they're still

22:09

a player, right? You're still going into the draft right

22:11

now without a first-rounder. The

22:13

pick 32 was 32. You're

22:18

missing out on a player like a Joey Porter Jr. And

22:20

you're missing out on what, another third-round player? We're not going to

22:23

say it's always going to be the best player. That's a less

22:25

of a difference. No,

22:27

they flipped. They got a third back in it. The third, I think,

22:29

evens itself out. We'll say it evens itself out. So,

22:31

I mean, it's still like a Joey Porter Jr. and

22:33

a player at 12, right? And

22:39

this year's first round. So it ends up being 20... Because

22:41

they would have gotten somebody at 12. Right. So

22:44

it ends up being... Am

22:46

I right on that? It ends

22:48

up being 27 and 33 for...and

22:51

Will Anderson for 12, the

22:54

other player they could have gotten.

22:57

Instead. So

22:59

it's Will Anderson... Right. So

23:02

it's whoever they could have gotten at 12. Yeah. And

23:05

the next guy's off the wood. Jameer Gibbs, Lucas

23:07

Van Ness, Broderick Jones, Will McDonald. It's

23:09

the other player plus 27 and 33 or Will Anderson. Correct.

23:13

And who could those players have been? I said Joey

23:16

Porter Jr. He's off the board. It

23:18

could have been the next guy, non-quarterback, off the board was Sam

23:20

LaPorta, right? And so this is what I'm talking

23:22

about when doing the math. If

23:25

Houston...would Houston rather have... Let's just

23:27

do the exact picks. Pick 12 was the Lions picks. You

23:30

could have Jameer Gibbs, Sam LaPorta, and

23:34

the 27th pick in the New Year's draft. You can't do who they have had. I'm

23:38

giving examples. This is literally

23:40

who they could have drafted. Yeah, but you

23:42

can't do it that way because that's always

23:44

going to produce an optimal... That's the 100th

23:46

percentile range of outcome. No,

23:48

those are literally just the next players off

23:50

the board. They also could have had...okay, what's

23:52

a bad...what's a bad...a worse scenario. They could

23:54

have had Will McDonald, right, who went a

23:56

few picks later. How dare you. They

23:59

could have had... Matthew

24:01

Bergeron and the 27th pick. So

24:04

it could have gone poorly. But again,

24:07

the math behind this is still

24:09

like a three for one, basically. And even if

24:11

Will Anderson's great, which I think is his trajectory...

24:14

Jameer Gibbs is the actual pick. The very next

24:16

pick was Lucas Van Ness. It could have been

24:18

a lot worse. So you can't look at it

24:20

as like, here's who they could have been. Lucas

24:22

Van Ness, Jonathan Mingo and the 27th pick this

24:24

year. So it's a range of outcomes. So that's

24:26

the whole point. It's always a gamble. So

24:29

the fact that they got the gamble correctly,

24:31

that they nailed their pick, they got Will

24:33

Anderson is worth something. I'm

24:36

not even being critical of it right now. I'm

24:39

just saying like, there's still wait and see aspects

24:42

to it because it

24:44

affects your team building going forward. It affects your depth

24:46

going forward to put all your eggs into one player

24:48

basket. Yeah, but that one player appears to be very

24:50

good. I agree. I thought so at the time. That

24:53

is very good. So congrats to the Texans as the

24:55

bottom line here, CJ Stroud and

24:57

Will Anderson. Let's

24:59

talk a little prize picks. We got a lineup for

25:01

this weekend. How many of those can I drop before

25:03

this thing has to be demonetized? Thank you, Mike. Patrick

25:06

Buhomes, we're going more than a half passing yard. We

25:08

got a special freebie

25:10

with Patrick Buhomes, theoretically, as long as he doesn't

25:12

throw for negative passing yards here. Brandon

25:14

Ayuk, part of our PFF prize

25:17

picks lineup, Brandon Ayuk going more than 62 and a half

25:19

receiving yards. I'd say if Pacheco going more than a half

25:22

rushing and receiving touchdown, we have

25:24

Patrick Buhomes plus priority going more than 38

25:27

and a half rushing yards combined. Chris Jones

25:29

going more than a quarter of a sack, so we

25:31

need a half sack or more. And then

25:33

Christian McCaffrey going more than 90 and a half rushing

25:36

yards this week, this

25:38

weekend in the big game. So

25:41

that's our prize picks lineup for this week. You guys

25:43

can also play along over at prize picks, and it's

25:45

a good time to do it because,

25:47

if I could find it over here, I'm going the wrong way. It's

25:50

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25:52

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25:55

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27:13

Alright man, anything else from an awards

27:18

perspective? From last night's coach of the

27:20

year? Yeah, PFF Bobby did not win

27:22

assistant coach of the year. He was

27:24

fourth in the ranking. Jim Schwartz was

27:26

the fairly runaway number one guy. Mike

27:28

McDonald number two, Ben Johnson number three,

27:30

PFF Bobby number four. Browns and Texans

27:32

mopping up the awards. And then Stefanski,

27:34

right, won overall coach of the year

27:37

by a tiebreaker. They

27:40

both had, Kevin Stefanski and D'Amico Ryan both

27:43

had 165 total points. Right,

27:45

and so Stefanski won because one

27:48

more voter voted Stefanski

27:50

first place over D'Amico Ryan.

27:53

So a tiebreaker in overall points went with the

27:55

guy with the most first place votes. Stefanski number

27:58

one, D'Amico Ryan number two. number

28:00

three Kyle Shanahan number four John

28:02

Harbaugh number five no

28:04

sign whatsoever of Matt Lefler. You're

28:07

a big Lefler fan right? Lefler had two third place

28:10

votes. Was he your third? He

28:13

was in my list somewhere. I remember talking about him

28:15

when you were going over your list. I mean Lefler

28:17

most of

28:19

the time this is a did

28:22

you exceed expectations

28:25

type of award. It's the fans he when you have

28:27

I know they had five starting

28:29

quarterbacks technically they were already clinched right it

28:31

was a five but basically with four starting

28:33

quarterbacks they made the playoffs one

28:36

you know double-digit games so that's

28:38

why Stefansky won that's why Jim Schwartz won

28:40

as coordinator of the year turned that Browns

28:42

defense around from very bad

28:44

to very good. I'm surprised Dan

28:46

Campbell only got 33 points

28:48

compared to the 165 that tied for the lead

28:50

between Stefansky and D'Amico Ryan. I thought Dan Campbell

28:52

would get a lot more love I mean I

28:55

think the division win but you know they had

28:57

nine wins last year so would expectations higher. So

28:59

that's the thing you you have

29:01

to bear in mind these awards are done as soon

29:04

as the regular season is wrapped right nothing in

29:06

the playoffs everything in

29:08

the playoffs happens after these awards are voted

29:10

for right so Dan Campbell the Lions were

29:12

expected to be good this year they were

29:14

good they won the division but the legacy

29:16

got burnished a bit by getting to the

29:19

NFC Championship game taking it to the 49ers

29:21

almost beating them and then coming up just

29:23

short that I think is sort of

29:25

what makes you think yeah Dan Campbell probably should have got

29:27

more love but if you just look at the regular season

29:29

it was more of an as expected

29:32

you know par for the for

29:34

the course. So that's

29:36

it on the awards. Offensive

29:38

player of the year right. Do you

29:41

want to talk about it? I mean just might as

29:43

well wrap them up with all of them right. All right AP

29:45

offensive player of the year where is that? It

29:48

was Christian McCaffrey fairly comfortably over

29:50

Tyreek Hill. I

29:53

didn't think it would be that comfortable. No I

29:55

mean those are the two obvious candidates but I

29:59

went the other way. order but I think either one is

30:01

fair. Chris McCaffrey, Tyree

30:03

kills CD Lamb and Lamar Jackson, Dak Prescott.

30:05

Again another interesting award you know you're taking

30:08

value out of it you're just right it's

30:10

less of a QB award and more about

30:12

let's get other positions in there McCaffrey definitely

30:15

well deserved with his as a runner

30:17

and receiver and what he does for

30:20

that 49ers offense. Travis

30:22

ECN got a third place vote. Yeah that's

30:24

gotta be at you. Someone like the

30:28

random one-off votes are always interesting of which

30:30

you've had before. Yeah how many of them

30:32

do you think are at you? Does

30:36

that show know who Travis ETN is? Probably.

30:42

The man's job is

30:44

to sling takes every weekend. Yeah.

30:47

Extreme ones. Mm-hmm. Every

30:49

week after a weekend I can't

30:52

imagine him and

30:54

Travis ETN have crossed paths off it when

30:57

he's takes slinging you know what I

30:59

mean? Of course he knows who he is.

31:02

But of all the 50 voters who might not know who

31:05

he is. If I had to

31:07

pick one he would be he would be the one. I've

31:10

noticed we're very aggressive it's just criticize the people

31:12

here lately. Yeah we're tired and cranky though. On

31:14

the on the prowl on the attack. See we

31:16

were talking to Trevor Sycamore earlier in the week

31:19

earlier in the week you know and he was

31:21

he was ground down at that point and he

31:23

was saying man when I get tired

31:25

I get cranky and I was in line I was saying

31:27

am I I was like you know shouting at the guy

31:29

in front of me for doing something stupid in my head.

31:31

I'm like dude you are not in

31:33

the same ballpark in terms of crankiness when you

31:35

get angry. We let it out. We just start

31:38

ragging people on the podcast and we're cranky. Like

31:40

LaParee, I

31:50

mean we are bringing it. These are

31:52

well-aimed targeted strikes. Right to the

31:54

head. No strays here. The FFF NFL podcast. Mike

31:57

Zimmer. Mike Zimmer news. Mike Zimmer going

31:59

to the Cowboys are returned to the

32:01

Cowboys. He was there between 1994 and sometime in the mid-2006. 06.

32:07

How precise of you. I

32:09

saw it the other day. I think it's 94 to 06. Okay. Mike

32:13

Zimmer going back to the Cowboys 67 year

32:16

old defensive coordinator. Your thoughts? I

32:18

like it. I think Mike Zimmer

32:21

even towards the end of his Minnesota tenure when

32:23

the Vikings defense overall fell off it was still

32:25

really good on third downs like he still clearly

32:27

had teeth and the ability to design good plays

32:30

at the right time. Now he gets

32:32

to go back. I think there's a lot of merit generally

32:34

to these guys who get to go back to being a

32:36

coordinator. And by that I mean they

32:38

get a whole bunch of crap taken off their plate. You

32:40

know all the other 17 jobs that come

32:42

up being a head coach doesn't have to do any

32:44

of that anymore. He's just a coordinator. Go coach defense. Get

32:47

your players where they need to be. Get your scheme where

32:49

it needs to be. Spend all your time doing that. And

32:52

the Dallas Cowboys defense has amazing personnel. We've seen that

32:54

over the last couple of years. So I

32:56

think it's a really good appointment. How would you

32:58

describe his defense? I think you know they

33:01

do a lot of trickeration, at the line

33:03

of scrimmage, a lot of double a gap,

33:06

sugaring the a gaps as our friend Greg

33:08

Koselick say. But

33:11

it's a four man right. There's some similarities

33:13

to Jim Schwartz there. He still wants to

33:15

win with four up front but create what

33:18

the blitz package is and the third down

33:20

defense has always been really

33:22

good for Zimmer. How would you describe his

33:24

defense? I think it's perfect for

33:26

the way the league is going right

33:28

now in defense which is to increase

33:30

the frequency and the amount

33:33

of that trickery and misdirection and disguise

33:35

that's going on. Whether it's with you

33:37

know linebackers in the a gap, whether

33:40

it's with rotating safeties, pre and post

33:42

snaps, like pressure looks, all those

33:44

kinds of things. Zimmer already did

33:46

all that stuff with his defense. So it's not

33:48

you know it's a slightly different scheme. It's not

33:50

the same necessarily as that Mike McDonald

33:53

defense but same idea. Like that's the

33:55

kind of stuff that Zimmer excels at

33:57

anyway. I think it's interesting too. when

34:00

you look at the division and what the Eagles

34:02

just had to deal with and how bad they

34:04

were at handling blitz packages and I know they've

34:06

got Kellen Moore in there and it's a new

34:09

offensive system and they'll you know maybe have better

34:11

answers against the blitz. I remember there

34:13

were points in Zimmer's career they would play the Lions

34:15

twice a year and there were times where they just

34:17

broke the Lions pass protection rules.

34:19

It was not one game I think Stafford

34:22

got sacked seven or eight times and it wasn't

34:24

because the offensive line was getting beaten up is

34:26

because they just couldn't block it they didn't know

34:28

who to block right and they just outsteamed the

34:31

Lions at that particular time. Zimmer has a

34:33

lot of those games under his belt historically

34:35

and I think that's an interesting matchup going

34:37

up against the Eagles in particular and how

34:39

Jalen hurts didn't really handle the blitz and

34:41

the whole system the team didn't handle the

34:43

blitz so they're gonna have to have answers

34:45

so it's two new coordinators and everything but

34:48

the teams they're going up against right I mean who are the

34:50

Cowboys trying to beat what's the hump they're trying to get over

34:53

it's the Eagles it's the 49ers it's all the

34:55

best teams in the NFC and

34:57

look Dan Quinn I think did a really good job there but

34:59

I think this is at least a

35:01

lateral type of move yeah bring in Zimmer

35:04

in for Dan Quinn. Dan

35:06

Quinn leaving was a big blow to this

35:08

defense he's done a fantastic job over the

35:10

last couple of years if you're Dallas you're

35:12

like how do we avoid going backwards losing

35:14

Dan Quinn I think Mike Zimmer avoids going

35:16

backwards so I think it's a really nice

35:18

hire. So there

35:20

you go Mike Zimmer going to the Dallas Cowboys.

35:22

How long have we been going? Time to

35:24

go to time to

35:27

go to Dr. Allen? Just

35:29

one last well one last programming note I got

35:31

an email coming in from somebody one of the

35:34

people our loyal listeners that won

35:36

a bet from us over the weekend basically

35:38

saying how do I redeem my free PFF

35:40

plus subscription with the Super Bowl and

35:42

everything else haven't gotten around to those yet but I will

35:44

do that next week I will get all those accounts set

35:46

up I won't personally but I will send it

35:48

to somebody that will yeah

35:51

other programming no we're gonna be back to

35:53

our old school three podcasts

35:55

a week schedule and

35:58

you know we're gonna get back to the that same cadence

36:00

that we used previously, that

36:03

Monday, Wednesday, Thursday cadence. Monday,

36:06

I don't know if we're gonna

36:08

do it this Monday, but we like in the

36:10

off season, leading up to the draft, to talk

36:12

mock drafts, well mock draft Monday, because

36:14

mock starts with M and Monday starts with M,

36:17

and I think that works well. So mock draft

36:19

Monday's coming up, different ways that

36:21

we like to talk drafts, free agency's coming up

36:23

soon. I think within the next couple weeks,

36:25

we'll be fixing every team in five

36:27

minutes or less, as we always tend

36:29

to do, so we got all that stuff coming up, but we'll

36:31

be going back to three days a week, next

36:34

week, from a mock draft standpoint. Nice.

36:37

Any name drops, you wanna name drop anybody?

36:41

The Rock was here yesterday. The Rock was here yesterday. Extra

36:44

security. Could not get

36:46

close to the Rock. Did you try? I

36:49

just wanted to say, hey, Rock, you're

36:51

my high school baseball coach's, girlfriend's, niece's

36:53

husband. I just wanted to say hello. We

36:56

are connected, couple degrees of separation. Big

36:59

fan. I couldn't even get into the

37:02

bathroom over there. There's like 15 people. Why

37:04

does the Rock need security? Why

37:06

does he need that level of security? I'm just saying, I feel

37:08

like if you'd taken a run at it, you could have at

37:10

least beaten one of them. Yeah, I

37:12

didn't time it up well. I mean, if he

37:14

shows up again today, maybe we'll take a chance.

37:17

I mean, those guys, you got a question. You're

37:19

the Rock's security, right? You're generally on the lookout

37:21

for potential threats, but you're not like brace for

37:23

contact. How you doing? You

37:25

know? You're not taking a pass set ready

37:27

to stop a giant six foot 10 lug

37:29

launching himself at you. I feel like

37:31

you're taking a run and beating one guy. If we see

37:33

like a high end celebrity walks around here, maybe I'll

37:36

take some chances here today. Okay. Later.

37:38

That's all I'm asking. Trust yourself. Trust your speed, trust your

37:40

size. We didn't talk about the whole thing. Do you want to

37:42

do a quick, okay, same reaction?

37:44

Sure. From last night? Did

37:46

we add that? We can add that.

37:49

2024 class Dwight Freene, edge rusher, Devin

37:51

Hester, kick return, punt return specialist, Andre

37:53

Johnson, wide receiver, Julius Peppers,

37:55

edge rusher, linebacker, Randy

37:57

Gratishar, and Steve McMichael. from

38:00

the senior committee. A

38:04

lot of guys that we have, now

38:06

we have more guys where we have their entire

38:08

PFF career. A guy like Patrick Willis, who

38:11

was one of our top linebackers year in, year out. Dwight

38:14

Freeney going in, Julius Peppers, you got two defensive

38:16

ends there. Julius Peppers, the only guy that was

38:18

a first ballot guy this year. Yeah,

38:20

and we're already looking forward to next year's first

38:22

ballot guy, Luke Kuechly. He's already on the ballot

38:24

next year, man. Luke

38:27

Kuechly, on the ballot for the first time in

38:29

the same year as Adam Vinnitary. I'm fine with

38:31

this one. Like 25 years between the menates. Oh my

38:33

gosh, it's crazy. Yeah, Vinnitary

38:35

started his career in like 96. He

38:38

was in the year 15 or 16 when Kuechly entered

38:40

the league. And they're in the same

38:42

Hall of Fame class. Yeah,

38:44

I thought the class was good.

38:46

A guy like Antonio Gates probably

38:48

gets snubbed. Yeah, definitely. I think Gates will get in

38:51

at some point. Gates is 116 career touchdowns. That's

38:55

more than Tony Gonzalez, who's like the

38:57

everlasting tight end record guy and everything.

39:00

And Steve Largent of

39:02

the Seahawks at one point was like,

39:05

you know, he had 100. Like 100 used to be

39:07

this massive barrier. Yeah, I mean, Don

39:09

Hudson had 99, right? And that was the record for

39:11

like half a century until Largent

39:13

broke it. And I know there's more scoring

39:15

nowadays and there's more games or whatever, but

39:19

yeah, 100 used to be a big milestone.

39:21

I mean, it still is a pretty freaking

39:23

big milestone. Yeah, Gates was unbelievable, man. He

39:25

was uncoverable in his prime. Former

39:28

basketball player. I don't know if you knew that. I've heard

39:30

that once. But yeah, we have faith Antonio Gates will get

39:32

in. I still think there's this backlog

39:34

of receivers, the Torrey Holtz and Reggie Waynes of the

39:36

world. They did not get in. I mean, that should

39:39

probably be in if they're gonna let some others in.

39:42

116 touchdowns still ranked seventh all time. I'm the only

39:44

people ahead of him. Seventh all time? Yeah, and the

39:46

only people ahead of him are obviously wide receivers. He'll

39:48

get in. He'll get in. But

39:50

yeah, good class. Julius Pepper is an

39:52

absolute freak of a player. Picked

39:55

in the top five movement

39:58

skills, ability. longevity

40:00

to him and then Dwight Frini

40:02

just an unstoppable pass rusher. He

40:05

didn't play the run all that well but it wasn't asked

40:07

to and it was just unreal getting to the quarterback. Yeah

40:12

Dwight Frini was the guy with that

40:14

unstoppable spin move that nobody

40:16

could get a handle on for his entire NFL

40:18

career. Even late in his career bouncing around the

40:20

league. Six different teams he played for. Only four

40:22

of which I had any recollection of last night.

40:24

Yeah we played that game last night. I only

40:26

got four of them I think. But

40:29

he was suiting up I think for Arizona and dropping

40:31

that spin move on Andrew Whitworth when he was still

40:34

at the peak of his power and it still worked

40:36

right. That was absolutely incredible.

40:38

Julius Peppers had amazing longevity. I think

40:40

he's fourth all time in the sack

40:42

list. Played for like 17 seasons as

40:45

an edge rusher. Amazing

40:47

by him. Andre Johnson I was kind of surprised got

40:49

in that easily I guess quote unquote.

40:52

He always felt like the underrated

40:54

guy in his career. All the attention was

40:56

on Larry Fitzgerald or whoever. But Andre Johnson

40:58

just kept cooking on his own in Houston

41:00

regardless of who the quarterbacks were. And

41:03

he got in pretty quickly like I said not first

41:05

ballot but I think Andre Johnson was right. I

41:08

think he deserves to get in but I'm surprised it was that comfortable.

41:10

Like Chris Carter was waiting for like a decade to get in you

41:12

know. Yeah I think there's a backlog

41:14

of receivers and I don't think it's just because of the

41:18

changes in the game. I think there's just I don't know

41:20

there's receivers that probably need to get in. Looking

41:22

ahead to next year Eli Manning on the ballot for the

41:24

first time Luke Kuechly who we mentioned. Marshall

41:26

Yanda would be a good little test

41:28

case because I think big

41:31

PFF guy Marshall Yanda we

41:33

would definitely put him in. I don't know where

41:35

the voters will land there. Marshawn Lynch thrill

41:37

Suggs Darren Sproles Joe

41:40

Staley a keep to leave Demarius Thomas Clay

41:42

Matthews Ryan Khalil just some of the names

41:45

who will be eligible next year.

41:47

Yep. All right. Well

41:51

it's been fun over here on on Radio

41:53

Media Row. We're going to try to set

41:55

up Sunday night right after the game

41:58

and give you your Hall of Fame recap. Appreciate

42:01

everybody tuning in. Go check out our other

42:03

shows this week. We did free agency preview.

42:05

We did a mock draft from from circa

42:07

shout out again to circa an unbelievable Sportsbook

42:10

great place to watch the big

42:12

game if you're in Vegas here on Sunday. But

42:15

for now we're going to go to Dr.

42:17

Alan siltz, the chief medical officer of the

42:19

NFL, breaking down some

42:21

of the hard hitting questions, Sam, about player

42:23

health and safety here. Appreciate everybody.

42:25

We'll see you again next week with more PFF NFL

42:28

podcast. We're

42:31

joined by Dr. Alan siltz, chief medical officer

42:33

in the NFL. You joined us last year

42:35

with Sam. Appreciate having you back. Thanks for

42:37

having me. Sam, you want

42:40

to kick things off? Yeah, we had

42:42

an injury expert in our podcast this

42:44

year talking about, you know, all the

42:46

week's injuries. One of the things we

42:48

seem to spend our entire time doing

42:50

was talking about hamstring injuries. And we

42:52

were a big uptick in soft tissue

42:54

injuries in the NFL this year. I

42:56

think there's some kind of initiative to

42:58

kind of really dive into that. Did

43:01

you guys learn anything from that? Are there going to be

43:03

preventative changes off the back of that next year?

43:06

Yeah, in fact, we had a major major intervention

43:08

this year and it was successful. We actually were

43:10

able to drive those injuries down significantly, particularly in

43:12

the preseason. That's where we really put our focus

43:14

because how we bring players back first two weeks

43:16

training camp and the rest of preseason has a

43:19

big ripple effect for the rest of the year.

43:21

A lot of guys get

43:23

hurt in preseason and they'll have a nagging injury

43:25

throughout the entire season. So we did spend some

43:28

dedicated time in the offseason working with clubs on

43:30

that. We did see that pay dividends. We

43:32

were down about 20% overall in those soft

43:34

tissue strains during our preseason. This is a

43:36

pretty significant drop. And then we saw almost

43:39

a 50% reduction in recurrent injuries during the

43:41

regular season. So there's more work to be

43:43

done, but we're definitely seeing the early returns

43:45

from that effort of working with clubs on

43:47

that. And sometimes people ask, well, why are

43:50

you guys focused so much on that hamstring

43:52

strength, soft tissue strains, number one burden injury

43:54

in the NFL. Yeah, that means that guys

43:56

miss more time for that injury than for

43:59

any other injury. So it's a

44:01

natural point to focus on because that's what keeps players

44:03

off the field. Yeah, as

44:05

analysts, once I hear hamstring, I'm

44:07

like, uh-oh, you know, it's week one, it's week two.

44:10

Is this gonna be a thing through week 10, week 15? With

44:15

the soft tissue injuries, how much of that

44:17

is like the last 10 years, just less

44:19

practice time, and how do you

44:21

balance, you know, the players have been fighting

44:23

for your practice reps and everything, how do

44:25

you balance practice time, and how did you

44:28

go about implementing, you know, a better ramp-up period?

44:30

Well, you're right, there is a sweet point there. You've gotta

44:32

do enough training to get prepared to the demands

44:34

of the game, but you don't wanna overtrain. So,

44:37

one of the neat things now compared with 10 years ago is we

44:39

just have so much more data. Every player, as

44:41

you know, wears a GPS tracking chip in practices and

44:43

games. So we know how far they ran, how fast

44:45

they ran, how many high-speed efforts and all that. You

44:48

can really try to use that to go back to

44:50

clubs and say, hey, these are the things we think

44:52

prepare players but don't overdo it, you know, to the

44:54

point of pushing them past that red line and getting

44:56

them injured. So, finding that

44:58

balance of getting enough high-speed efforts.

45:00

Interestingly enough, one of the things we

45:02

look at is if guys don't play in pre-season games,

45:05

you've gotta find a way to get that game-level intensity

45:07

before the start of the regular season, or they'll have

45:09

that strain in the first couple weeks of the regular

45:11

season. Where are we now

45:13

on the discussion when it comes

45:15

to playing surface? Is there now a consensus

45:18

in terms of what the safest playing surface

45:20

is? Are

45:22

we gonna be moving towards one specific thing? And

45:25

it's something like, you know, the World Cup gonna

45:27

help that. They're having the World Cup final at

45:29

MetLife Stadium. They'll have grass for that, I assume.

45:32

FIFA has grass for all their stuff.

45:34

So, are we, because there

45:36

was always a kind of argument, right? Some

45:39

people were saying there's clearly grass is the

45:41

better service, players want grass. But there were

45:43

other studies that actually, it's more complicated than

45:45

that, we're not 100% sure. Yeah,

45:48

well, it is a very complicated topic. So

45:50

when you think about lower extremity injuries, playing

45:52

surface is one of those components. But there

45:55

are other components as well. When

45:57

you dive into playing surfaces though, you quickly

45:59

realize, we don't. just have two surfaces, grass

46:01

and artificial, you've got 30 different

46:03

surfaces. And they're very, very different. If you

46:05

look at the different properties, stiffness,

46:08

firmness, thickness, moisture content, coefficient

46:11

of friction, all of these things are different.

46:13

So we're trying to understand, are there specific

46:15

characteristics that do correlate with injury? Because obviously

46:17

you'd like to get rid of those things,

46:19

whatever the surface. We're also looking

46:21

now more at how do we drive the surfaces

46:24

to be more consistent overall, so that there's less

46:26

variation when you go from place to place. Hard

46:28

to do because we have a lot of different environments,

46:31

right? Boston, Massachusetts, very different

46:33

than Jacksonville, very different than Seattle.

46:36

We were talking earlier about minor league baseball

46:38

field, same thing, you know, you've got a

46:40

lot of environmental factors. But I think where

46:42

we're going is, can we do better measurements

46:45

to really characterize the field? Can we narrow

46:47

the range of properties and get those fields

46:49

to be more consistent? And then hopefully we

46:52

continue to learn, are there specific surface characteristics

46:54

that do correlate with injury? We are working

46:56

with FIFA, we will learn from that. I

46:58

mean, the reality is right now

47:00

today, you can't grow a high

47:03

quality grass surface and keep it a month

47:05

inside to withstand the kind of horses that

47:07

NFL players put on it. That's an important

47:09

point, because they're very different than soccer players.

47:11

But we're working with them to learn about

47:13

that effort and how that might be evolved,

47:15

because we'd love to get to the ability

47:17

to have those surfaces, as I

47:20

said, that are uniform across the league. How much

47:22

of the surface question is actually what's under the

47:24

surface? Because if you go back and watch like

47:26

old tape, it's like the AstroTurf back when. It's

47:28

like a carpet laid on top of concrete.

47:31

Now, there's presumably varying levels of

47:33

padding and whatever else goes under

47:35

the surface in each individual state.

47:37

Absolutely correct, it's a great observation.

47:39

There are clearly differences in construction

47:41

underneath. And again, whether you're talking

47:43

artificial or grass. And

47:45

there's also a third category, it's called a

47:47

hybrid surface, which is mostly grass, but with

47:49

some fibers of artificial worn woven

47:51

within it. So all of that has to be

47:54

considered. And you're exactly right, what's underneath it, the

47:56

drainage, the heating, all of that plays a role.

47:58

So, we're working. Not only with

48:00

FIFA, but leagues all around the world. We do our

48:02

international games, we go and meet with those international soccer

48:04

leagues and others and we're trying to understand what are

48:06

they doing, how do they regulate it, how do they

48:08

measure it, and how might that translate to the NFL.

48:11

There's going to be a lot more we're going to know about

48:13

this in a year or two than we do today. Right.

48:16

Why do you think the players, it feels like the players association

48:18

is getting very aggressive with their fight for grass over turf. You

48:20

said there might be 30 services rather than A or

48:23

B. Why are they so aggressive at this

48:26

point? Especially

48:28

if you guys are looking at data, they have

48:30

data. If everyone's looking at the same data, why

48:33

are they so aggressive with grass? Well I think

48:35

we do share all the same data and our

48:37

engineers and their engineers are the ones who work

48:39

together on this. I mean they're very collaborative and

48:41

they have the same goals in this. I think

48:44

it's well known that many artificial services actually return

48:46

a lot of energy to the body. So

48:48

you put force in the ground and it comes back in

48:50

your body. That's going to make you sore. You're going to

48:52

have some soreness. You're going to have, if you've got a

48:54

chronic tendonitis in your knee, you're going to feel that. So

48:58

I think players' input and players' preference absolutely matters.

49:00

You also have to consider though the performance

49:02

aspect. What surfaces do they feel they can

49:04

perform the best on? Because we could make

49:07

a surface, for example, that no one ever

49:09

had a knee injury on but people would

49:11

fall down all the time. It would be

49:13

so slick. You can't perform on that. So

49:16

it's finding that balance of performance, comfort, safety,

49:18

and efficiency. That's really what we're trying

49:20

to do together. I was going to ask about the quality

49:22

of the game. I think the Patriots

49:24

back in maybe 2006-07 maybe went from

49:27

grass to turf after they had their

49:29

fields completely torn up and

49:31

then eventually they started scoring more points once they went to

49:33

turf and had a cleaner field. We've seen games, I think

49:35

it was the 08 Dolphin Steelers

49:38

game where it was just puddled everywhere. It was 3-0

49:40

in the game. How

49:42

much does the quality of the game factor

49:44

in? I know you're focused more on the

49:46

injury aspect. Who's making that final call with

49:48

quality of the game versus keeping guys safe?

49:51

Safety really is our top priority. That's always

49:53

going to drive the conversation. But

49:55

I think again, consistency. How do you get to

49:58

that consistent surface so that there's less? less

50:00

variability. You go back and you look at video

50:02

from 20 years ago, let's go back to

50:04

baseball. We used to play in baseball stadiums, right? Remember

50:06

when there was dirt? The infield dirt that was actually

50:08

part of the field? That's not that long

50:10

ago. It was aesthetically pleasing though. It was fun. It's

50:13

like, all right, this is a September game. So,

50:15

there's a lot more work to be done. We

50:17

have come a long way, but again, our ability

50:20

to test and measure that. And by the way,

50:22

fields actually vary depending on where you are on

50:24

the field too. Imagine between the hash marks, very

50:26

different than the end zones from the side. So,

50:29

again, the goal is how do you make that

50:31

homogeneous field that is safe and plays well all

50:33

throughout and we're just developing better tools and a

50:35

better understanding of that. We have the same exact

50:37

goal of the players. So, we want the best

50:40

field, the safe, that you can perform on and

50:42

that you can maintain over time throughout the course

50:44

of our season, which again goes from very,

50:47

very hot weather to some very, very frigid weather. Very

50:49

true. Really hard in the season.

50:51

Are there times when, you know, safety is

50:54

a top priority. Are there times where something

50:56

else will stop something happening that would be

50:58

a safety improvement. So, the Guardian Caps,

51:00

those kind of oversized, rugby, scrum

51:02

cap things, those are now mandatory,

51:04

right, in practices, contact practices, preseason,

51:06

training camp, all that kind of

51:08

thing. So, presumably they make a

51:10

tangible, provable difference to concussions,

51:13

those kinds of things. What's stopping them being

51:15

mandatory for every game? Why do we take

51:17

them off once the game starts? Well, the

51:19

reason we started with practices is that's where

51:21

we had the data. So, Guardian Caps have

51:24

been used at the collegiate level for probably

51:26

a decade or more and you've got over

51:28

a hundred NCAA schools that use them. And we

51:30

have lots and lots of data to say, hey, in

51:32

a practice environment, they're safe. If you

51:34

think about any new innovation, yes, you want to make

51:36

sure that it's doing what you

51:39

expect it to do, but you don't have an

51:41

unintended consequence as well. So, it was important for

51:43

us to do it incrementally, to look at, hey,

51:45

what is this going to do? Are there any

51:47

potential downsides? When you talk about game play, we

51:49

did not have any of that data, right? It

51:51

hasn't been worn to games at other levels until

51:54

recently. This fall, you saw a couple of high

51:56

schools do it in Minnesota. Last

51:58

spring, you saw for table Colorado. to wear it in their

52:00

spring game. We think there may be a couple this

52:02

year. We've gotten that data, we're analyzing it, we're looking

52:04

at it, but again, before we can

52:06

say, yeah, it's okay to do in-game, we just

52:08

want to make sure there's not any unintended consequence

52:11

or anything that might create a situation of

52:13

a lack of safety. So does that mean we're

52:15

heading to a situation where those become the norm

52:17

in-game, and it's just we have to do it

52:20

incrementally and make sure it's the data scales, right?

52:22

It translates. We're continuing to research it, but where

52:24

I think we're really heading is how do you

52:26

take that pretty simple add-on of these padding and

52:28

actually incorporate it into the helmet itself? So that's

52:30

where, rather than a shell on the outside, let's think

52:32

about how it could be part of the concern. That

52:35

was the other thing I was wondering is, you know,

52:37

we've been locked into this world of hard shell, outer

52:39

football helmet forever, right? And like with the, they've

52:42

changed, you know, we're now getting all these

52:44

kind of creases and areas where there's absorption

52:46

and all that kind of thing. But we

52:48

haven't taken the kind of fundamental step of

52:51

what if it looked more like a rugby scrum

52:53

cap or more like a guardian cap? Is that

52:55

where this is going to head at some point?

52:57

Sam just wants to turn it into rugby. He

52:59

wants more laterals and he wants more rugby. It's always

53:01

a hidden agenda there, right? You found it. No,

53:04

listen, I think we've seen tremendous

53:06

innovation in the helmet's face in the last 10

53:08

years. But I think the

53:10

next five years are going to be even more. We're

53:12

looking at things like position-specific helmets. Why

53:15

should every guy on the field wear the

53:17

same helmet, right? It turns out that certain

53:19

players get hurt in certain ways. For example,

53:21

quarterbacks, where do they get concussed? Usually in

53:24

the back of the head, they're throwing the

53:26

ball, they fall, the protected ball hits the

53:28

ground. So this year you saw quarterback-specific helmets

53:30

with extra padding in that area. Lineman,

53:32

O-line, D-line, a lot of frontal impact.

53:35

Why not reinforce that area? So I

53:37

think over the next five years, you'll see

53:40

different materials, you'll see different design, and you'll

53:42

see helmets tailored to specific positions. One

53:45

other really important point, the helmet's never going

53:48

to be the be-all and end-all to prevent

53:50

it against concussion. It's equally important that

53:52

we look at the game and say, how can we take

53:54

head contact out? I think of the helmet

53:56

as kind of like the airbag or the seatbelt in

53:58

your car. It's there if there's a... crash? The

54:01

safest thing is to avoid the crash in

54:03

the first place. So I think both parts

54:05

of that approach are important. Roughly, would you

54:07

say more concussions in the run game or the pass game?

54:09

Do you have a feel for that? Yeah, right now it's

54:11

the passing game. So, you know,

54:13

the statistically most numerous positions affected are wide

54:15

receivers and defensive secondary. Safety, DBs, who are

54:18

typically colliding in space and either going up

54:20

for a ball falling to the ground or

54:22

colliding with each other. So you've got that,

54:24

the push and pull, I think I've seen

54:26

in the last 15 years, is the NFL's

54:28

made more rules to, you know,

54:31

lead to more passing, right? The rules are favoring the

54:33

passing game. So how do you balance the rules

54:35

to make the game more exciting? Pass game leads

54:37

to more points versus the safety of players. You know,

54:39

one of the things that the commissioner always says is

54:42

he believes the game can be safer and more exciting.

54:44

Those are not mutually exclusive. And

54:46

I think that's our challenge. How do we keep

54:48

the game exciting, preserve all

54:50

the things that fans love to watch, but try to

54:52

make incremental safety improvements? That's what we spend our time

54:54

and energy thinking about throughout the year and in the

54:57

off-season. And when you're talking about,

54:59

you know, we want to try and take the hat out

55:01

of the game and it's the same conversation that basically every

55:03

sport is having, right? Rugby, same thing. How do we get

55:05

these head collisions out of it? Obviously,

55:08

part of the way of doing that is by legislating new

55:10

rules, different rules, try and punish

55:12

those hits. But the other element

55:14

has always got to be let's make sure we

55:16

are coaching that element as well. And

55:20

I feel like whether it's head contact

55:22

stuff in football or whether it's the

55:24

hip drop tackle that's now a big

55:26

talking point as well, I feel like

55:28

football has had this tackling technique problem

55:30

for years now that hasn't been addressed

55:32

the way it has in some other

55:34

sports. And it's a

55:36

really fundamental coaching technique difference between

55:38

football and other tackling sports that,

55:41

you know, rugby has this saying

55:43

cheek to cheek, right? Head

55:46

cheek against butt cheek, that's the way you

55:48

avoid the head contact and you get it out of it.

55:51

Football almost teaches the exact opposite from

55:53

a fundamental level. You put your

55:55

head on the other side, you get more mass in front of

55:57

them, you stop the forward progress. How

56:00

do you guys work with, instead

56:02

of saying, let's just change every rule and make

56:04

all of these plays illegal, we've also got to

56:06

try and, because the pushback is,

56:08

well, how am I supposed to tackle him? Well, there is

56:10

a way, we're just not teaching you that yet. Yeah, I'm

56:12

gonna take this guy on the road with me, okay? Go!

56:15

You know. He's finally got his dream. We're gonna get

56:17

it all going here. Consult him, Raul, look, I've got

56:19

an agent over here, we'll do the paper. Got it

56:21

done. No, you're absolutely right. Couple

56:23

of points I'd like to emphasize. We'll

56:25

never legislate head contact out of the game

56:28

through rules, full stop. It is about

56:30

technique. And you can

56:32

tackle or block or execute any move

56:35

using your head or not using your head. And we

56:37

see that, we see that in the data. We see

56:40

now that we can track head contact, some

56:42

offensive linemen that have a very high rate of head

56:44

contact, nearly every play, others that are way, way, way

56:46

lower than that, two or three times lower. So

56:49

you're right on the money that coaching and teaching

56:51

and emphasizing that is gonna be a big part

56:54

of the solution. You know, it's always

56:56

said you can't change what you can't measure, right? So being

56:58

able to measure that is the first step. And we actually

57:00

were able to do that this year. Now

57:02

through using artificial intelligence, computer vision program, we

57:04

can measure head contact, for example, the line

57:07

D line. And we actually gave that data

57:09

to our teams on a weekly basis. On

57:11

the first player. Yeah, we're like, hey, this

57:13

is your player's rate of head contact. I

57:16

think we've gotta continue to emphasize more and more of

57:18

that data. And we've gotta work with coaches just on

57:20

what you talked about. How do you block and tackle

57:22

in the safest way to get the head out of

57:25

there? Again, always be

57:27

some inadvertent contact players collide

57:29

when they don't mean to or they hit

57:31

the ground. But that technique based tackle or

57:33

block, getting the head out of that is

57:35

a super important part of this. And that's

57:37

not a rule change that is coaching and

57:39

teaching and emphasis. And is it harder to

57:41

do in the NFL because theoretically you wanna

57:43

be getting to those changes when they're kids.

57:45

Absolutely. near the

57:48

NFL. Again, you're right on the money. We have to continue to

57:50

work with other leagues and levels of play to say, hey, this

57:52

is the safe way to play the game. You can still be

57:54

effective. It's not any less effective. Right. But

57:56

it's a safer way to do it. It's gonna extend

57:58

your career and actually make it. make you equally successful

58:00

but healthier throughout because you're not going to have the

58:02

risk of injury. Sam, you're going to teach our youth

58:05

how to tackle. I'm here. Look, I said, Solskjaer,

58:07

we'll talk to him, we'll work the numbers out,

58:09

but I'm available. I'm available and willing to help.

58:12

Can we wrap it up with this real

58:14

quick? Hip drop tackle is a big talking

58:16

point this offseason. Any changes coming with that?

58:19

It's an active conversation list, and this isn't just

58:21

a unilateral decision for me in the league. Obviously,

58:23

our competition committee and our coaches, players, everybody's going

58:26

to have input into that. When

58:28

we started looking at specifically high

58:30

ankle strains and fractures of the lower leg,

58:32

that particular scale of tackle really jumped out

58:34

because it has an economically higher injury rate.

58:36

So I think it has to be a

58:38

conversation where you say, OK, we're seeing this

58:40

leading to injury, is it something we can

58:42

change? But it'll be a broad off season

58:44

conversation. All right, Dr. Allen, chief

58:47

medical officer in the NFL, appreciate the time.

58:49

Thanks, Rob.