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and get wild! Welcome

1:32

in to the PFF NFL Podcast,

1:35

just Steve Pelzola with you so

1:37

far. Here on this Monday morning,

1:39

that's right, Sam's out on vacation,

1:41

but I've got a very special

1:43

guest here today. It's former Minnesota

1:45

Vikings general manager, Rick Spielman, returning

1:47

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1:49

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health questions. I

2:46

to as I mentioned Rick Spielman. Gonna. Join

2:48

the show here! We had him on last year. And

2:51

a lot of people liked our discussion. Hope will have.

2:53

And. Other similar one. So let's do it

2:56

Right now. it's get to a Rick Spielman

2:58

currently of Cbs Sports and former Minnesota Vikings

3:00

General Manager. I

3:02

told the story of Tic last year when

3:04

we had ya Michelle yelled at me the

3:06

first time that we have met at a

3:08

com nine hundred and by.our relationship has drowned

3:11

senate and self esteem at Baby Steps here.

3:13

Are. You. Is a you're

3:16

like you're fresh off this Washington Commanders

3:18

Coaching search right? You got. this site

3:20

is consulting gigs which is our which

3:22

is pretty solid. Can. You can

3:24

you talk broadly about the the search and.

3:27

Ah one of the things that when people ask me

3:29

about hey, is this a good coaching candidate I cop

3:31

out I say i don't know. Because.

3:33

It feels like there's so much that we don't see.

3:36

That makes a good coach. So can you speak

3:38

broadly to the the search and what you might

3:40

be looking for helping out with. Yeah.

3:42

Gosh Harris and Are Bob Myers who

3:44

was a former and be a Gm

3:46

with the Golden State Warriors asked me

3:48

to join a group and the first

3:51

tests we had. ah and

3:53

hand was a higher the gm so we

3:55

spent a lot of time i did a

3:57

lot of research i knew a lot of

4:00

the people that were going to be

4:02

candidates for the next GM of the

4:04

Washington commanders. We went through

4:06

that process first because Josh Harris wanted

4:08

to get the general manager in place

4:11

and then from there we would hire the head

4:13

coach. So went through

4:15

five candidates as a general manager

4:17

and they're all very qualified. I

4:20

think all those general manager candidates

4:22

that we did interview were eventually

4:24

B candidates, but for the Washington

4:26

commanders and what fit best with

4:29

Josh Harris was in

4:31

our minds, no doubt that it was

4:33

Adam Peters. Not only his background from

4:35

New England to Denver to San Francisco,

4:38

but his knowledge of personnel, but his

4:40

ability to communicate across all departments

4:46

under the football operations, which he will be

4:48

head of. Once we got

4:50

through that process, the next one was

4:52

the head coaching search. And

4:55

this one was very

4:57

interesting. And

5:00

I could just tell you on the

5:02

Bob Myers situation, he wasn't

5:04

brought in to get into specifics

5:06

on X's and O's, but he

5:08

was a great resource on leadership

5:11

and on relationship with coaches and

5:13

GM and talking about

5:15

his relationship he had with Steve Kerr

5:18

and how they won all those championships.

5:20

So that gave a different perspective. In

5:22

fact, I learned a lot being

5:25

very fortunate to be a prior to this process.

5:28

But we started that process, we did a

5:30

lot of Zooms first. The

5:32

NFL rules for hiring a head coach

5:34

are different than hiring a

5:36

general manager. You couldn't meet

5:39

with them in person until I

5:41

believe January 22nd. So

5:44

once that time came, we did the

5:46

initial interviews by Zoom, those usually lasted

5:49

about two and a half hours. And

5:51

then the in-person interviews lasted about six

5:53

hours. And we broke it up at

5:56

different segments where Josh

5:58

and Bob and and Adam

6:01

wouldn't be for a segment. Myself, Mark

6:03

Mayhew and Josh would, or Adam would

6:05

do another segment. We got

6:07

more into the football specifics. I think

6:09

the biggest thing that the

6:11

owner and Adam wanted to know

6:13

was the relationship going forward. So

6:15

a lot of qualified candidates, everybody

6:17

that we interviewed, I was thoroughly

6:20

impressed with. Some of those guys did

6:22

get jobs, some didn't, but I think

6:24

they're gonna be future head coaches in

6:27

the NFL, but we would

6:30

come back after we each did

6:32

our respective areas that we were going

6:34

to interview these candidates and come

6:36

and come back and give our opinions

6:38

on strengths and weaknesses. The

6:41

most important part of the process

6:43

was, and especially me with my

6:45

background, was, okay, I'm

6:47

not hiring a head coach. I

6:49

will give you the positives and

6:52

negatives that I believe he

6:54

has and why he would be a great

6:57

leader for the Washington commanders.

6:59

But Josh and Adam

7:02

Peters had to ultimately make that decision because that's

7:04

the guy that they're gonna be working with directly.

7:06

I don't have to work with them. So

7:08

my role was there just to tell

7:10

them my thoughts and feelings on each

7:13

of the candidates as we went through.

7:15

But I loved the process,

7:17

loved the GM process. I learned a

7:19

lot on how different teams do different

7:21

things and it made me even

7:24

more educated than I was before it became

7:26

part of this search. You

7:29

mentioned Bob Myers coming from the

7:32

Golden State Warriors and coming from the NBA. I

7:35

think people initially hear that. They're like, oh, he

7:37

doesn't know football, but as you clarified it, it's

7:39

the relationship aspect. It's also just learning how other

7:42

organizations operate. I

7:45

think that might be underused, right? I

7:47

mean, I've watched Bob on

7:49

Sloan analytics panels because I'm gonna

7:51

be at the Sloan conference again

7:54

this year. And I remember

7:56

before I was on the panel last year, I'd

7:58

watch all these old panels. from

8:01

other sports. I'd watch baseball and I'd watch basketball

8:03

and I thought I learned a lot

8:05

just listening to little snippets of how they solved

8:08

problems, how they operated. It's

8:10

not about so much the on field

8:13

or the X's and O's but the process. So

8:16

I imagine that was a great asset

8:18

for Washington in the search here. Yeah,

8:20

that's what it was. It was having

8:22

different viewpoints and not just all football

8:24

or all this or all that but

8:29

I guess the best way just crossing

8:31

over from sport to sport. But in essence,

8:33

we're all looking for a leader.

8:37

We're all looking for someone who

8:39

could communicate, someone

8:41

who's going to be able to relate with the

8:44

players to develop talent. Now they

8:46

do a different leaning in NBA, but then

8:48

the NFL, but you still gotta do it.

8:50

It's just different ways. So it's great to

8:52

listen to different ideas and maybe you pick

8:54

up the thing or two that they do

8:56

in the NBA that's not

8:58

being done in the NFL and vice

9:01

versa. So that to me was besides

9:04

listening and interviewing

9:06

these candidates, the

9:08

most fun I've had on

9:10

learning different things that I didn't know before

9:13

I was, like I said, fortunate to

9:15

be a part of this search. Do

9:18

you think there's some anything missing? Do

9:21

you think Dan Campbell's success

9:23

in Detroit has changed the way teams will

9:25

do coaching searches in the future or the

9:27

people that they're looking for because historically

9:30

it's been who are the

9:32

best offensive coordinators, the people that they've worked their way

9:34

up through the organization. Now they're good play callers, they

9:36

have a good scheme, they have a good system. Now

9:39

they're the head coaching candidates. But

9:41

Dan Campbell didn't necessarily have that, but he's

9:43

come in and been awesome for the Lions

9:45

as you know. Does

9:47

that change anything? Is that an anomaly?

9:50

How do you see maybe

9:52

Dan Campbell's a sense? Yeah, well,

9:54

it's the same thing, D'Amico Ryan's. Look what

9:56

he did when he got his opportunity. Again,

9:58

now he was... a coordinator,

10:00

I understand that, but another former player

10:02

that was a good football player, but

10:05

a leader of the team. So

10:07

as you see these coaches

10:10

that are coming up that were former players

10:12

that were also great leaders, I

10:14

think that's what people are looking for.

10:16

And you can't go

10:19

into these searches just saying, hey, we

10:21

want the brightest mind offensive

10:24

coordinator, because he may

10:26

be a great offensive coordinator, but can

10:28

he run an organization? Can he oversee

10:31

the defense of special teams and everything

10:33

else that comes across his desk? So

10:36

there are guys that end up being great

10:38

coordinators, but not great head coaches. But I

10:40

think the traits, it doesn't

10:42

matter whether your offense, defense, special

10:44

teams, whatever, its leadership,

10:47

its ability to communicate across

10:49

platforms and its ability to

10:52

develop talent and its

10:54

ability to put a staff together that will be

10:56

able to do that. The

10:58

staffing thing, I think, is

11:00

extremely underrated. Again, that's why as an analyst, when somebody

11:02

asks me, how do you like this head coaching candidate?

11:05

I say, I don't know. I'm not in the interviews.

11:07

I don't know who they're going

11:09

to hire, what their philosophy is. I also

11:11

think that's probably why there's a challenge with

11:13

interim head coaches, right? I mean, they're an

11:16

interim head coach. They fill in for a while. Even

11:18

if their team goes on a run, it's not really

11:20

the full job, right? They're just keeping

11:22

the ship afloat for a year, but the job

11:24

is putting everything else into place and

11:26

being that CEO. So it feels like that's just

11:29

a big part of the challenge when trying to predict who

11:31

the next great leader is going to be for an organization.

11:34

Yeah. And I could just mention

11:36

what really stuck out about Dan

11:38

Quinn and why

11:41

I think Josh and Adam made

11:44

a great choice was that Dan

11:46

Quinn, people forget, got Atlanta to

11:48

a Super Bowl. Now, I know

11:50

they ended up having that

11:52

collapse in the second half, but they got

11:54

there and Dan Quinn

11:56

is maybe the most person

12:00

that I've met but yet has a presence

12:02

to him. And

12:04

when he goes back and he's talked

12:06

about how he reassessed himself on

12:09

the mistakes that he made or his blind

12:11

spots and how he took

12:13

his own initiative to go

12:16

out and seek help in

12:18

those blind spots to make it better

12:20

if he did get another opportunity from

12:22

experts in those areas. And I

12:24

thought that, you know, what more do you

12:26

want from a leader that's someone that is

12:29

humble, that knows he doesn't know everything and

12:31

is willing to go out and seek help

12:33

to get better. We all have our own

12:35

faults. I have my own faults. You I

12:37

don't know, Steve, you don't have any faults

12:39

apparently. But it's

12:42

great when someone has that. The other

12:44

thing that I thought was really critical

12:47

in the coaching search is you

12:49

can get a feel for someone

12:51

on the Zoom. But

12:54

the in-person is not

12:56

replaceable. It is when you

12:59

have that person in the room, you can

13:01

feel that energy. You can feel whatever

13:03

that it factor is, whether they have that

13:05

or not. I mean, they can do the

13:07

presentation and you go through all the questions

13:10

that you have to go through. But you

13:12

can really feel that person, whether you're like

13:14

Adam is going to connect with that person

13:16

or not. And I don't think you get

13:18

that same sense, even though you get a

13:21

feel, but not like it is

13:23

when you sit there across from

13:25

somebody across the table and interview

13:27

them. Yeah, again,

13:30

I can only see what I see, but

13:32

Dan Quinn coming from that Seattle defensive scheme

13:35

from early of the last decade, a

13:37

lot of the defensive coordinators from that scheme

13:39

kind of kept the scheme intact and everything

13:41

for a while. And I think Dan Quinn

13:43

did in Atlanta. But I was most impressed

13:45

with what he did in Dallas by adjusting

13:47

his system to personnel. And it feels like

13:49

that's a little bit of what

13:52

you're saying is that Quinn's shown

13:54

the ability to adjust and continue

13:57

to improve. You have to. that's

14:00

what's the difference in today's NFL is

14:03

that you can have your base schemes, but

14:05

there's some, whether it's offense or defense,

14:08

but the opposing coaches are pretty skewed

14:10

too. Eventually they get a

14:12

beat on what you're doing. So how,

14:14

what do you do to adjust your scheme?

14:16

And I think the most important thing now

14:18

is that these successful

14:21

coaches are taking players

14:23

that can do multiple things, either

14:25

on the offense or defensive side,

14:28

a la Kyle Shanahan

14:30

in San Francisco, what he does with

14:32

Christian McCaffrey, what he does with Deebo.

14:35

And even, you know, you watch what

14:38

Spags has done as the defensive coordinator

14:40

out in Kansas City, he

14:42

uses those guys in multiple ways. And

14:45

how do you keep evolving your system?

14:47

Because if you stay stagnant to me,

14:49

that's when you get passed up. All

14:52

right, we're gonna talk a little draft today and some

14:54

of the evaluations, and you've been grinding

14:56

the film, I think, right? Lead them up

14:58

to the combine here in a couple of

15:00

weeks. Like you know, PFF, I have the

15:02

ability to do that. So always happy to

15:05

take care of you, Rick. I

15:08

have one more broad question and it reminds me

15:10

of the NBA a little bit, since

15:12

we were talking about that earlier. And I may

15:14

have asked this to you last year, you may have hated

15:16

the question. So we'll try it again. The

15:19

NBA feels, it feels

15:21

like they spend all of

15:23

their decisions around finding superstars, right?

15:25

So they're either trying to be

15:29

drafting at the top so they could draft a

15:31

superstar or they're building an ecosystem

15:33

where a free agent superstar wants to join

15:35

the roster because the impact of one player

15:38

is massive. In

15:40

the NFL, the quarterback might be similar as

15:42

far as impact, right, if not greater. And

15:45

so obviously Mahomes wins another Super Bowl, Mahomes and Brady

15:47

have won like 90% of the last, you

15:50

know, 15 Super Bowls, whatever it is. Should

15:53

the, is there a way that

15:55

the NFL should be approaching the

15:57

quarterback position almost like the NBA

15:59

approaches superstars? And

16:01

so everything is not it's not

16:03

just finding a starting caliber quarterback

16:05

of which many exist but

16:07

finding a top five the

16:09

top eight quarterback is there a way that

16:11

the NFL should be kind of adopting what

16:13

the What the NBA would

16:15

do around superstars if that makes sense.

16:17

Yeah, I don't know how you do

16:19

that There's so many different variables in

16:21

the NFL injuries the number of people

16:24

you have you can't you know The

16:26

NBA and I'm not an NBA expert

16:28

But if you hook up

16:30

two or three guys that are superstars

16:33

And then have two other guys in

16:35

a pretty decent bench, you know, then

16:37

you're yeah, yeah Yeah, but

16:39

you have 22 guys. Yeah, 53

16:42

guys and you can't from

16:44

a salary cap standpoint Have

16:46

okay, we're gonna have 11 guys.

16:48

We're gonna play top dollar to and build

16:51

around them to me The

16:54

NFL is so much different because

16:56

you're hoping to get your superstars

16:58

in my opinion if you're

17:00

drafting well And then those

17:02

are the guys that you're going to

17:04

build your roster, you know Like I

17:06

believe at homestead in Detroit when

17:08

they hit it out of the park last year Those

17:11

guys are from an economic standpoint

17:13

great value because then you can

17:15

have some guys around look with San Francisco's

17:18

Able to do adding a piece here or

17:20

there because of Brock Purdy's contract

17:22

right now They can't touch that for

17:24

another year, but to say that

17:27

that model would work in the NFL. I think

17:29

there's way Too many

17:31

variables in the NFL compared to what

17:33

they're dealing with in the NBA Yeah,

17:36

I guess the way I was thinking about it Then

17:38

that makes a ton of sense, right? Because if it

17:40

does look the rookie contract quarterback or the superstar quarterback,

17:42

right? Like those are your two Right

17:44

bandages. So the way this would

17:47

potentially work is you're just Continuing

17:49

to take shots at quarterbacks because you don't you

17:51

might not know when when one is gonna hit

17:55

Or and I always use the

17:57

word middle middle class quarterback, right? Very isn't

18:00

it, you know, that's a an endearing term. Those are

18:02

some of the best quarterbacks in the world. But those are the

18:04

guys that you're sitting there like you're legitimately in the middle. Is

18:06

this guy going to take me to a championship or do I

18:08

need to move on? Should teams

18:11

move on quicker and

18:13

take the wings, I guess. I guess

18:15

the question I'm going to ask you, taking

18:17

bigger swing at who? Someone has Patrick, you

18:19

think Kansas City is going to put Patrick

18:21

Mahomes on the market and trade him? Oh,

18:24

no, until you I said until you have

18:26

no, obviously not. I'm saying I'm saying through

18:28

the draft. Just

18:31

if you went crazy drafting because you

18:33

couldn't necessarily predict Brock Purdy, not that

18:35

he's a top four guy

18:37

or anything, but it's a it's a hit right for

18:40

San Francisco. You're

18:42

just going to keep going until you find that

18:44

one, because if you don't have one, then you

18:47

you probably don't have a chance at a championship.

18:49

No, but how many of

18:51

them? I mean, that's like,

18:53

you know, a little bit of a needle in

18:56

a haystack. Hopefully you eventually hit one of those. But,

18:58

you know, are you going to still be in a

19:00

job while you're still trying to hit one of those

19:02

three, four or five years later? It's

19:04

such a tough place to be. I got

19:06

asked about the Steelers quarterback situation yesterday on the radio

19:08

and I was given like nine scenarios. You know, you

19:11

could keep Kenny Pickett. You could trade for the fields.

19:13

You could trade for this guy. And I'm like, I

19:15

don't love I don't love

19:17

any of them necessarily. Yeah, as

19:19

far as trying to build a championship team, it's a tough

19:21

spot to be in. All

19:24

right. Let's talk. Let's talk about the draft in these

19:26

quarterbacks. I saw an interview with you where

19:29

you were you love Caleb Williams. Is that is

19:31

that still the case? Yeah, I

19:33

do. I think he had he is

19:35

a special talent watching

19:37

him. I understand some of his

19:39

flaws, but the guy is extremely

19:42

athletic. He makes

19:44

incredible throws, especially off platform.

19:48

He has tremendous arm talent. I think he

19:50

tries to do too much at times like

19:52

a lot of these guys force

19:55

it in this situations where it probably should

19:57

have thrown the ball. I think that's all

19:59

correctable. coaching, everybody goes back, well,

20:01

did you watch the Notre Dame game?

20:03

Well, I watched the first half of

20:05

the Notre Dame game and he wasn't

20:08

very good, made poor decisions. But

20:10

also what really stuck out to

20:12

me is when he came out the second half,

20:15

he actually played really well in the

20:17

second half. So that told me, hey,

20:19

okay, I had a cracked first half,

20:22

but it didn't linger into the second half.

20:24

He regrouped himself, regathered, and came out. They

20:27

didn't win the game, but

20:29

he played much better in the second

20:31

half. So he can overcome

20:33

adversity. The rest will be, you

20:35

know, once you get through all

20:37

this pre-draft process. But I think

20:40

from a talent standpoint, athletically,

20:42

from a natural gifted

20:44

playmaker, I

20:47

think that he is one of the best I've seen

20:49

coming out of college. I

20:51

love that you mentioned the adversity because every one

20:53

of the top quarterbacks had something that they had

20:56

to overcome, right? All the elite guys over the

20:58

last few years. And then even

21:00

a CJ Stroud had a game against Northwestern

21:02

last year, we had what, nine completions and

21:04

60 yards. And it was terrible weather. But

21:06

I mean, you can't

21:08

go back through every everyone's college

21:11

games and be like, oh, they were all perfect. So

21:13

I get that. And the one

21:16

thing that was always interesting was if

21:18

they played poorly, how

21:20

did they respond the next week,

21:22

especially with all these kids now

21:24

on whatever social media and all

21:27

the exposure they have out there and fans,

21:29

you know, a lot of the kids when

21:31

we interview them at the combo, oh, yeah,

21:33

I just turned off my social media. Well,

21:35

you may, but your girlfriend, your, your friends,

21:37

your, your mom, your dad, are reading all

21:39

that crap. They're writing about it. How

21:42

does he respond? Does it linger? Or

21:45

does he come back and have maybe his

21:47

best game after played a

21:49

crappy game? So

21:51

I think Caleb Williams will be the,

21:54

I think most will have him go

21:56

in number one to the bears. I expect the bears to

21:58

take him at number one. It seems like there's

22:00

a lot more debate than I had anticipated

22:03

between Drake May, Jayden Daniels, maybe

22:05

even some others in the top 15. Where

22:08

do you stand on the second best quarterback

22:10

in the league, in the draft? Yeah,

22:13

I like Drake May a lot. I

22:16

had the ability to

22:18

watch him play live down in Miami

22:20

last year. And his

22:24

size, I think he is very athletic.

22:27

I think he has arm talent. He's

22:29

another one. He did not have the same

22:31

talent around him this year. He

22:33

made some poor decisions, turning the ball

22:36

over or forcing the ball where he

22:38

probably could have kept it. And

22:41

then Jayden Daniels is an incredible

22:43

story coming from where he started

22:45

at at ASU, Arizona

22:47

State, where

22:49

he was still developing. You can say, God, this

22:52

guy will never be a first-round pick. But

22:54

when he transferred into LSU and the

22:56

strides he made from last

22:59

year to this year and how

23:01

much better he has improved. So I

23:03

think all three of these are

23:05

going to be very successful quarterbacks

23:08

in the league. I think there's a

23:10

drop-off into that next tier. And

23:12

it'll be interesting to see how many

23:15

actually do go in a first round. And,

23:17

Steve, if I can ask you a question

23:19

respectfully. I

23:22

think there are – how many – there's two

23:24

parts to this question. How

23:27

many quarterbacks do you think are

23:29

actually first-round talent? And

23:32

then the second part of it, how many will actually

23:34

get drafted in the first round? Oh,

23:36

good. I like what – because it's just you and

23:39

I, you have to be able to ask me questions.

23:41

So that's good. I am open for questions. I'm

23:44

with you on who the top three is. I

23:46

think a Bo Nix is

23:49

probably – I'd say first-round talent.

23:51

I'm not – I don't love Bo

23:53

Nix. I

23:56

think four or five probably still end up going in

23:59

the first. So let's say four, four

24:01

first round talents and five go

24:04

in the first round. What I, what

24:06

I don't know is that that pivot

24:09

point of Vikings, Broncos,

24:11

Raiders, three teams

24:13

who need quarterbacks, are they

24:15

taking one there or are they going to try to wait

24:17

till the second? Are they going to try to trade up?

24:20

So I think that's, that's kind of the pivot

24:22

point for number of quarterbacks. Yeah.

24:26

And I'm not as big a Bo Nicks fan

24:28

as you are, apparently. I don't love, I don't,

24:30

I don't love them. You have as your fourth

24:32

quarterback. It's not the fourth quarterback in

24:34

his draft. Who's who's fourth? J.J.

24:37

McCarthy. Maybe

24:40

it's the small sample size on J.J. but it's

24:42

hard for me to project what I haven't seen.

24:44

I know that's the job, but it's hard. It's

24:47

hard to project. It's seeing him in a high

24:49

volume system. Only thing I

24:51

would say is where you seen it, uh,

24:53

and he played very well, even though they lost

24:56

the game is when they played TCU in a

24:58

semi final game two years ago and

25:00

he had to air it out and got into a

25:02

shootout and you seen all the

25:04

throws and everything he is capable of

25:07

doing. Now, I understand he's athletic and

25:09

people want to maybe label him a

25:11

game manager because of what Michigan

25:14

asked him to do this year, uh, in

25:17

the system that he ran. But that

25:19

was a glimpse of, if you let him

25:21

go, uh, I thought

25:23

he played excellent in that TCU game and

25:25

just threw the ball all over the yard.

25:28

Now, does he need time to develop? Yes.

25:31

Uh, does he, is he more than a

25:33

game manager? Maybe your point. I don't know

25:35

that, uh, cause you didn't see that

25:37

this year. I know the one game couldn't

25:40

believe the poor decisions he made was against

25:42

boiling green. I think he threw three

25:45

interceptions that game and

25:47

I was watching the tape and I

25:50

said, boy, this is unfalcon believable. Get

25:52

it? Bully brief Falcons. I like it.

25:54

Most evaluators just, you know, they

25:58

pick six to eight games and it's all the best. best teams.

26:00

That's good. You watch the Bowling Green game. You

26:02

can learn from learning. Well I wanted to see

26:04

it because he threw three interceptions that game. Why

26:06

do you throw in three interceptions against Bowling Green?

26:10

Listen Rick, I can be swayed off

26:12

of QB takes. I think I know

26:16

I've been around a lot of evaluators

26:18

and everybody's very confident in their evaluations

26:20

and their process and everything. I am

26:23

least confident in quarterback because I think

26:26

the what constitutes

26:28

success I think is just a higher standard than

26:30

other positions. Again we're not just trying to fight.

26:32

Is this guy an NFL starter? I don't know

26:34

if I care that much if he's just a

26:36

starter. I want a guy that's a game changer

26:38

and I think it's

26:41

been challenging to predict that over the last few years.

26:44

If you do find the formula you will

26:46

make a billion dollars. I know. I thought

26:48

you've been working on that your secret lab

26:50

back there with all the numbers. I think

26:52

I've got it. I got it for non-quarterbacks

26:57

here. The models looking

26:59

good for non QBs. Figuring out the

27:02

top eight quarterbacks in the NFL, man, that is challenging.

27:05

I can be swayed. My note

27:07

on Bo Nix, I'm going

27:09

to repeat this for our podcast listeners throughout

27:11

the season here, was something to

27:14

the effect of he could be good but I don't want

27:16

to be the team that finds out. I'm

27:20

okay if I miss on him but I don't

27:22

know if I want to be the team that

27:25

has to make that investment

27:27

to see it. I get it. I don't

27:29

feel strongly either way. You do,

27:31

JJ McCarthy. Do you think he's going top

27:33

15? That seems to be

27:36

the hype. Take it with a grain

27:38

of thought because I'm sitting here doing

27:40

this podcast with you. We're at equal

27:42

footing now. Although

27:44

I will be very opinionated. I may

27:47

not be right but at least you

27:49

know where I stand on players. As

27:51

I said, the evaluators I know are

27:53

extremely confident even if not

27:55

you per se but others who maybe don't Have

27:59

the best track record. Record or whatever you know, maybe haven't

28:01

won the most games in there like I know

28:03

what exactly would have doing. so. Or

28:06

any of any other Qbs baby. the have

28:08

caught your eye or that and. They.

28:11

Have strong opinions on it. Either way,

28:13

It out. The guy that see ah

28:15

it out with talked about Michael panics

28:17

junior unethical come down to the medical

28:19

and it out right now. He did

28:21

shop in play in a senior bowl

28:23

but shown up a practice down. There

28:25

are the see slide into the first

28:27

round. The guy

28:29

that is a mystery to me

28:31

and I. Is. Spencer rapper.

28:34

Because. Is not overly bag

28:36

but he's got very good are. Very.

28:39

Easy throwing motion. Ah,

28:42

Looked very get down at

28:44

the senior bowl. But.

28:46

The Question: I have some of his

28:48

decision making and it was an issue

28:50

when he was it. Oklahoma actually got

28:53

beat out by Caleb Williams and then

28:55

he was at South Carolina, but he

28:57

never took them any farther than without

28:59

them. To. Set up very after

29:01

I can say very. Good.

29:03

Average to did. Fancy. C

29:05

T, but nothing that would succumb to

29:08

the next level foul. And.

29:10

A thing I had issues with him

29:12

was this decision making and critical situations

29:14

during the game. So. And

29:16

he's had some talent down or like

29:18

gets coming out the receiver. ah good.

29:21

Other had the tight and the valve

29:23

for out the case for to Florida

29:25

State. Ah, So he's had some

29:27

players the throw the ball to. It just

29:29

seems like. whenever. That

29:32

is and I wish I had the answer

29:34

to that because you're gonna fall in love

29:36

with his army. Going to fall in love

29:38

with the the where the ball comes out

29:41

you want to eat out. He's more than

29:43

capable of making plays with his athletic skill

29:45

set is just the decision making. Process.

29:48

Part. A Critical Situations And

29:50

again. Yeah, we

29:52

talked a lot about Rattler. Had a lot of

29:54

people bring Rattler up as up. Your.

29:56

guys if he isn't it if he's around in the

29:58

third round or whatever my that teams might say,

30:01

okay, that's worth a shot.

30:03

Let's see if we can develop him. Because he

30:05

looks like he was going to be the next

30:07

great Oklahoma quarterback before Caleb Williams did beat him

30:09

out, right? There was that run of Kyle Amari, Jalen

30:12

Hurts. Yeah,

30:15

and it was,

30:18

yeah, it was Spencer

30:20

and then Caleb, right after Jalen

30:22

Hurts. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, so, and

30:25

it just, for whatever reason, it didn't work

30:27

out there, but he didn't make very good

30:29

decisions at Oklahoma either, some

30:31

of the turnovers that he created. So, if

30:34

that's fixable or not, that's what

30:36

teams are going to have to figure out. All

30:38

right, let's go to some of the other position groups.

30:40

How about receiver? We just did a lot on receiver

30:43

last week here on the show. I think people

30:45

have raved about Marvin Harrison

30:47

Jr., but not just him, Malik Nabors, Roma

30:50

Dunsey. Do you have a favorite at

30:52

receiver? Do you have any, who

30:55

are your favorites at receiver at the top? Okay,

30:58

I would agree with those three. I think Marvin

31:00

Harrison Jr. is going to be a Hall of

31:02

Samer. I really think he's unique.

31:05

And then Nabors, whoever he ends up,

31:07

is going to bring an explosive playmaker.

31:10

I think he's the most explosive player

31:12

down the field. Dunsey really

31:14

took a big leap from last year to

31:17

this year, and, you know,

31:19

maybe not as fast or as fluid

31:23

as Nabors, but

31:25

big physical body can go up and get the

31:27

ball, contested catches. And I mentioned he's going to

31:30

be a beast in the red

31:32

zone for some teams as he continues to develop.

31:34

And then he gets murky after you go

31:37

down through after that. And the guy that

31:39

I really, really think has a chance to

31:41

be special is

31:44

Michael Thomas Jr. because he

31:46

is big. He can run. He

31:48

doesn't run a lot of in

31:50

the route three. Sorry,

31:53

Brian, Brian. Brian, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got

31:55

you. Sorry, Brian Thomas. I was

31:57

looking at my list. I was like, I missed

31:59

a sleeper. That probably wouldn't be the first one. Sorry,

32:03

go on. Talk to him, Brian. Yeah, Brian.

32:06

Yeah, but his speed after

32:08

the catch for his size and

32:10

his athleticism, you

32:12

know, everybody talked about he's the

32:14

guy that was kind of left behind.

32:17

I mean, that talked about as much, but the

32:19

more and more tape you watch out of him, he

32:22

just continues to make fake plays. And

32:24

he just grew on me the more tape that I

32:26

watched out of him. And I think he

32:28

has a chance to know that a bunch

32:31

of second tier receivers may

32:34

have the biggest upside of

32:36

developing. Yeah,

32:39

there's a, it feels like there's a lot of

32:41

vertical type receivers in this draft. You know, guys

32:43

that can stretch the field might not be the

32:45

best. It felt

32:47

like last year there was some shorter, shiftier

32:50

types of receivers, the tanked out as

32:52

life flowers of the, yes. And

32:54

this year you've got some big vertical threats. I

32:56

don't know if they're, but a guy like Brian

32:58

Thomas probably has to, you know, polish up parts

33:00

of his game, isn't as well rounded, but has

33:02

some big playability. I'm seeing more of that, I

33:05

think in the receiver class here. Yeah.

33:07

A lot of big outside guys. They're

33:09

not the smaller slack guys. I

33:13

want to do you have a sleeper?

33:15

Do you have a sleeper at receiver? I

33:18

don't know if he's a sleeper, but all my, I think

33:21

all the, I called him a data darling

33:24

yesterday. I think when you start, when you

33:26

just start looking at pure numbers, this guy's

33:28

going to pop at the top and that's

33:30

Troy Franklin from Oregon. And then

33:33

I also like, you know, from what I've seen on film

33:35

so far, he's a little, he's slight,

33:37

absolutely. But I think he has a chance to

33:39

be good. Troy Franklin from

33:42

Oregon. I think with,

33:44

with receivers, there's a lot of like

33:47

flavor and what you like and where you're

33:49

going to play a guy, right? So from

33:53

a, from a drafting standpoint,

33:55

how do you, how

33:57

do you weigh a position like receiver where

33:59

there's. there's always a plethora of them because you

34:01

can view them through, well, he's just gonna be

34:03

a Z, or he's just gonna be

34:05

a slot, or he's just gonna be in this

34:08

certain role. Therefore, I think he's, he

34:11

could have more weaknesses, basically, versus

34:13

like a tackle, right? If a

34:15

tackle has a weakness, that gets exposed because he's

34:17

gotta play every snap. How do

34:20

you weigh that as far as scarcity

34:22

goes when you're thinking about draft board

34:24

and how draft strategy comes together? Yeah,

34:26

because there's always, it seems

34:28

to be that's the position

34:31

that there is always a abundance

34:34

of, if that makes sense, especially to

34:36

get down through Saturday. And

34:38

you'll be very appreciative of this.

34:40

We really relied on some of

34:42

the analytics to help us. We

34:45

could see what we see on tape. The one thing

34:47

is they have to be able to catch the ball.

34:50

And down at the senior bowl this year,

34:52

Ted Walker, who I think can maybe the

34:55

fastest guy in his draft,

34:57

you know, missed half the season because of

35:00

the NCAA at North Carolina, but he

35:02

couldn't catch the ball at the senior

35:04

ball. Is that mental? Is that something? It

35:07

was a rough week for him down

35:09

there. And I think he's dropped out,

35:11

I mean, dropped down some boards, but

35:13

there are specific areas, I

35:16

think, in analytics that you can help

35:18

you maybe sift

35:20

through this like stack of four or

35:22

five guys, which ones

35:24

potentially are gonna be the cream of the

35:26

crop out of that and stacking wherever that

35:28

is in your board to help

35:31

you try to decipher

35:33

through some of that stuff. Would

35:35

you ever say, because I know last year we talked

35:37

a little bit about the horizontal board and you might

35:40

have guys with similar grades or whatever it is, would

35:43

scarcity of a position ever be a tiebreaker?

35:45

In other words, you have a tackle and

35:47

a receiver? Yeah, so let's say

35:49

you're taking, you know, if

35:52

you look across your horizontal board and

35:54

you have, you

35:56

know, you're in the fourth round or fifth round

35:58

and you have 15 more, Receivers on

36:00

a board that you think are draft

36:02

a bone you'll have to orders laughed.

36:05

And. Are Acorn a believe I take the corner

36:07

because you know he got a lot of swings

36:09

at the. At. These receivers cel

36:11

lot of it has to do with the

36:13

depth of the position. Ah,

36:15

In the direction you will go at times with

36:17

your draft picks. Are

36:19

let's move to offensive tackles. Ah.

36:23

I think of I think most people might

36:25

have. You'll also have Notre Dame as the

36:27

number one tackle. There was a point where

36:29

they go lose. The shadow from Penn State

36:31

was gonna challenge him People like a Marius

36:33

Memes from Georgia to have a favorite tackle.

36:36

In this class ah I will go with

36:38

the shadow. Of. Really Okay, Yeah,

36:40

I don't. I don't hate that because there's a

36:42

guide tell me about for shouted. Why do you

36:45

love them. Because. I say

36:47

he has the most upside I

36:49

think he has yet more consists

36:51

in in Iran but a very

36:53

good pass protection. Ah. He's.

36:56

Just such a fluid move

36:58

or long arms. Everything you

37:00

want in a potential pro

37:02

Bowl tackle. Ah, But

37:04

he still has to develop. so

37:06

I think his. Ceiling.

37:09

Floor to ceiling is higher than old. I

37:11

think all is gonna be a day one

37:13

starter when he walks in the doors while.

37:16

He'll. Be a very good. Player:

37:18

In the Nfl by I think for

37:20

China has a higher ceiling. Or

37:23

then all possible be starters day was

37:25

just one has a higher ceiling to

37:27

be so I'm up with us. Maybe

37:29

not as polish but higher ceiling guy.

37:32

Okay, so say the same thing. you're in

37:34

the General Manager seat again. And.

37:37

So how do you balance? The

37:40

court. save the quote unquote safer pack of a

37:42

jolt versus the higher ceiling of Shot. It does

37:44

that depend on where you are from a roster

37:46

building standpoint. If you feel like you're closer to

37:48

contending, you're going to take a safer pick. If

37:50

you feel like you're further away, you going to

37:52

to choose the ceiling. And now

37:54

how does not affect anything? Now I

37:57

think that's where yeah what we would

37:59

do it. is, let's say everything's

38:01

equal, medical's equal, SMARTs

38:04

are, all the intangibles are check,

38:06

check, check, they're equal. So

38:09

that is where we would

38:11

have our group studies. So

38:13

our coaches would sit in with our scouts. And

38:16

if there was a discrepancy during the first

38:19

round of draft meetings, then

38:22

I know I would write those two names down. And

38:24

I said, let's watch the tape on both of these

38:26

and come up with what is the best

38:30

option for us if

38:32

we're on the clock and we have an opportunity and both

38:34

of those guys are staring at us. So

38:36

you go through all those scenarios, you go

38:38

through the group study and

38:41

come up with a consensus in the room of which

38:43

one that you want to go with. I

38:46

like it. So there's nothing about the

38:49

type of player or the style or when

38:51

you think they're gonna match that meshes. But

38:55

yeah, okay, I understand

38:58

this guy may struggle, Fachanu

39:01

may struggle a little

39:03

bit more, but in six weeks into

39:05

the season, he's gonna be better than

39:07

Joe Walt. So it's like- You

39:10

think it might even be that quick. When

39:12

we talk developmental, we're not talking necessarily two

39:14

years, like you think it could be. Yeah,

39:16

I think it could be just because he's

39:18

so gifted. Look how some of these guys

39:20

show up down at the senior boards why

39:22

I love going to the senior bowl. You

39:25

go down with questions on the guy and you

39:27

watch him Tuesday and by Thursday, he's

39:30

a better player. They're better, yeah. Fachanu

39:33

looked like one of the best past

39:35

protecting tackles I've seen in college. Again,

39:38

a long time, just pure past

39:40

protection as far as what

39:43

he can do, footwork, everything. Yeah,

39:45

he's just a naturally gifted

39:47

athlete that has, and

39:49

you ask yourself, are the flaws in

39:52

these guys correctable with coaching? Or are

39:54

you seeing what you see? And

39:56

that's what it's going to be. And I

39:58

think a lot of- Shire News flaws

40:00

will be able to get corrected with

40:03

coaching. All right, one

40:05

of the other positions that's going to be tough

40:07

to sort out at the top is cornerback. There's

40:09

probably five guys who all have first-round

40:11

potential. Not sure if there's others who end up

40:13

in there, but how are

40:16

you breaking down the cornerback position? Another

40:18

one that is, you know, what type of corner are you looking

40:20

for, depending on your team, your scheme, and what you need? Yeah,

40:23

this is, as I was kind

40:25

of looking through it, this stack of

40:28

five corners, I think there will be

40:30

a different order on every team's draft board.

40:32

Who's one, who's two, who's three, who's four,

40:34

who's five, because they're all different

40:37

in a way, you know. Terry

40:40

Arnold, for example, from Alabama, when you

40:42

watch the first half of the season,

40:44

you see his athleticism,

40:46

you see his ability to

40:48

play man coverage, but he's

40:50

just too inconsistent. So

40:53

I'm like, why is this guy even coming out? And

40:55

then the back half of the

40:58

season, I think he has four or

41:00

five interceptions, all sudden something clicked, and

41:02

you see this corner that has this

41:04

size and this natural

41:06

athletic ability, and he still needs to

41:08

get polished up a little bit here.

41:12

But he is such a smooth mover, and

41:14

he's more than willing and run support. And

41:17

then Quinnyon Mitchell from Toledo,

41:20

who, while he played in the Mac, you

41:23

know, and he has unique ball skills, in

41:25

my opinion. I watched the San

41:27

Jose State game, I think he had five

41:29

PBUs that game, but he can play

41:31

zone. I questioned a little bit

41:34

is if he had to play press man

41:36

or mirror receivers and coverage when

41:38

I was watching the college tape, although I think

41:40

he could do it. But that

41:43

box got checked down at the senior ball,

41:45

because I thought he was by far the best

41:47

corner. So those guys, and

41:50

then you got McKinstry, you got the

41:52

Jean, you

41:54

know, you have Wiggins, they all have

41:56

their strengths and weaknesses. So

41:58

I think it a lot depends. depend on how

42:01

they're stacked on draft boards will depend on

42:03

the scheme. And the one guy

42:05

that maybe is just below

42:08

there, but I was thoroughly impressed

42:10

with his tape, his

42:12

man Cambridge skills, but he is

42:14

a tone setter on defense. And

42:17

that's Ray Shaw, the corner

42:20

from Missouri. He was fun to watch

42:22

on tape because of his physicality. Yeah,

42:25

some good reps against the league neighbors when they played

42:27

LSU. I

42:29

mean, the other interesting thing about

42:31

corner is if you look over the last

42:33

few years, the success rate on first rounders

42:36

versus second rounders has been pretty

42:38

drastic. You're getting, the NFL

42:41

is generally pretty good at saying this guy's first

42:43

round corner and he's gonna play in the league

42:45

and have success. I mean, so the fact that

42:47

there's the five, maybe six, as you mentioned, with

42:49

the break straw that are going feels

42:52

like a strong position group. And I'm with you, I

42:54

think every year it's

42:56

scheme based, right? Are we gonna play a little bit more press

42:58

man? Are we gonna play more zone? Which

43:01

of these corners is gonna fit what we

43:03

do defensively? I'm also with you

43:05

on Quinn, you on Mitchell, man. I think he

43:07

only had 20 or 30 press snaps last year

43:09

at Toledo anyway, right? So the senior ball was

43:12

huge for him. I

43:14

don't think he took any reps on day three of the

43:16

senior ball because he had a

43:18

great first couple of days and he did take

43:20

some of those boxes, especially in press coverage. Yeah,

43:23

so it'll be interesting to see

43:25

and just because they

43:27

fly off, a

43:29

certain way, it doesn't mean that they

43:31

may fly off according to what the

43:34

team needs at that position and what fits. It's

43:36

not, well, this guy's better than this

43:38

guy. Well, maybe the guy that went ahead of him

43:41

is better in the scheme that that team is going

43:43

to run. No, I completely

43:45

agree. I think that's huge.

43:47

I don't know if you have any

43:49

linebacker takes, but I was gonna say

43:51

generally, do you

43:53

feel like the linebacker position goes back

43:55

and forth between seemingly

43:58

being overvalued and undervalued? As

44:00

soon as it's under there's fewer first round picks

44:02

or there's not as much money going to linebacker

44:04

Sometimes that reverts back then you see

44:07

a lot of the successful defenses Having

44:09

guys like Roquan Smith and Patrick Queen in the

44:11

middle having Fred Warner and Dre Greenlaw in the

44:13

middle in San Francisco Do you

44:15

think the linebacker position where do you

44:17

stand on the linebacker position overvalued undervalued

44:19

perfectly valued? I think

44:21

everybody's going to want cover guys and

44:23

rushers and but these guys

44:25

I mean look what Roquan Smith did

44:27

for Baltimore and all sudden

44:30

that defense elevated so I don't think

44:32

you can undervalue that It's

44:35

almost like I'd hate to say this

44:37

because I don't believe in it, but

44:39

you know our running backs undervalued now

44:42

so or is it the line of what side

44:44

on the defense because Look

44:46

at what you like ask that believe

44:49

me There is no Gibbs or Robinson

44:51

coming out in this year's draft at

44:53

the running back position But

44:55

look at where Greenlaw was drafted

44:57

what round look at where Warner

44:59

was drafted You

45:01

know we drafted Anthony Barr in

45:04

the first round but

45:06

he had a Unique

45:08

skill set because them would put him in different

45:10

spots to get him on the linebacker to rush

45:12

the passer But he also was 6-4 half-ling But

45:16

there's so many guys that are that

45:18

5-11 the 6-1 range that are real

45:20

athletic But I

45:22

don't want to call Dye-and-but-dozen,

45:25

but there are a lot of those that hey

45:27

I could go at a more

45:30

premium Position

45:32

and then pick

45:34

up my linebackers on Friday Yeah,

45:36

what I it's funny because when I use the

45:39

word value a lot And I think of it

45:41

through a couple different lenses It's like would

45:43

you like to have a really good one or how

45:45

how important is it to have a really good one? And

45:48

you mentioned Roquan Smith. I mean The

45:50

change in Baltimore's defense after

45:53

Roquan Smith was traded for in 2022 was massive So

45:56

I think the the value of having a great

45:58

one or a guy that fits well within the

46:00

system is huge, but

46:02

then it comes down to where, you know, do you want,

46:04

do you have to take swings at that in the first

46:06

round versus free agency versus later

46:08

in the draft, right? So that's kind of the

46:12

question there. It doesn't, I don't know if you've

46:14

gotten into the linebackers or not. They're always like

46:16

the last guys I watch along with running backs,

46:18

because I'm biased. So,

46:21

do you have any linebacker takes in this group

46:23

before we get into edges? Yeah, you know, I looked

46:26

at a couple of them. I still got some work

46:28

to do. I watched Trotter, who I think is a

46:30

very good football player, but not a first round

46:32

foul. And I think he's undervalued a little bit

46:34

about what he does in pass

46:36

protection, in-person coverage, make

46:39

some plays there. But very

46:42

instinctive. I think he got his

46:44

dad's gains from an instinctual standpoint.

46:48

You know, there's guys, but,

46:50

you know, Peyton Wilson, who

46:52

is ideal size, runs

46:54

around like his hair is on fire, needs to

46:57

learn how to take out blocks. And

47:00

his biggest thing will be the medical, he's

47:02

an older guy. So there's

47:04

some athletic guys, I think, in

47:06

this draft class. But

47:08

it'll be Cooper, as the kid

47:11

at Texas A&M, another very athletic

47:13

guy. Colson at

47:15

Michigan will probably go on Friday.

47:18

But I don't know if those guys, what's

47:21

the most politically correct way to say this?

47:24

They will be good football players, but are they

47:26

going to be, and maybe one of these guys

47:29

are, are they going to be game changers for

47:31

you on the defensive side of the ball? You

47:34

don't have to be politically correct here. That's perfectly fine.

47:37

Just be- Well, I know how

47:39

sensitive you are. We've had a lot

47:41

of thoughts. Very sensitive. Very sensitive. I

47:44

always feel for linebackers, I feel like

47:46

everything that offensive coordinators are trying to

47:48

do is trying to make them

47:51

wrong and make them look bad. All the

47:53

misdirection, all the QB run game, all the zone

47:55

coverage that teams are playing right now, challenging on

47:57

linebackers. Well, let me ask you this, how important-

48:00

the linebacker is when Greenlaw went

48:02

down with the unfortunate Achilles running

48:04

on the field. Kelsey had

48:06

one catch in the first half of the

48:08

Super Bowl. I think he ended up with

48:10

nine catches because they were all of a

48:12

sudden Greenlaw wasn't in there and

48:14

the middle of the field became wide open

48:16

and it was like a pitching catch between

48:18

Mahomes and Kelsey because Greenlaw wasn't in there

48:20

compared to what they were able to do

48:23

in the first half. Completely agree.

48:25

I mean it was just

48:27

it was very easy for Kansas City to

48:29

just manipulate leverage to just you know get

48:31

the ball to the outside when they want

48:33

it and then counter off of it. I

48:35

mean again I think I

48:37

think offenses and you know and Andy Reid and

48:40

great play callers do a great job of making

48:42

linebackers look bad and so when you do have

48:44

a good one it's one of

48:46

the ways to slow down some of those great offenses. How

48:49

about edge defender? I feel like that's got some you

48:52

know this you know your pure pass rusher's

48:54

I feel like that's got some questions at

48:56

the top. You know Dallas Turner from Alabama,

48:58

Jared Verus from Florida State, Latu from UCLA.

49:00

Do you have any favorites of that class?

49:03

Yeah you know Dallas

49:05

Turner to me is the most athletic.

49:08

You know at times I don't you know

49:10

I'd like to see him play a little

49:12

harder not that I'd say that he's a

49:14

slack by any means but to me he's

49:16

the most naturally gifted edge rusher even though

49:18

he's not you know 6'5 and

49:20

270 pounds and and

49:23

but when he turns it on

49:25

you know a lot of people thought

49:27

that he was better than Will Anderson

49:29

when Will Anderson came out Will Anderson

49:32

ended up being defensive rookie of the

49:34

year this year. And

49:36

verse I mean that's a great

49:38

success story of not being recruited

49:40

transferring from Albany to Florida State.

49:43

First game he plays I can't remember it

49:45

was in the opener. LSU I believe.

49:47

LSU and just

49:49

like who in the heck where did this

49:51

they get this guy from. And then

49:53

he's more of a power rusher to me

49:56

they can counter off his power but

49:58

now he plays with his hair on fire. He

50:00

is a going Jesse down in and

50:02

down out and then lot to You

50:05

know what all be about his medical because

50:08

he is probably the best Technician

50:11

in my opinion, especially using

50:13

his hands You

50:15

know, he can play a little stouter at the point,

50:18

but he's not a liability versus the run but

50:20

his natural movement skills and

50:22

his technique with his hands

50:25

are far superior for anyone

50:27

else coming out in this draft and Almost

50:30

veteran like like he's been playing for three or

50:32

five years have been coached for three or four

50:34

years on how he uses his

50:36

hands And then you get to

50:39

that, you know the second tier guys Guy

50:42

that kind of stuck out to me The

50:45

most was down at the senior

50:48

ball and I liked him on tape. I

50:50

didn't love him was Darius Robinson from,

50:52

Missouri Now there's a guy that looks to me

50:55

when I saw him. He looked like built like the

50:57

Neil Hunter When you

50:59

get him off the bus and when

51:01

he showed the ability to come

51:04

off the edge To use that

51:06

one-arm power move to

51:08

counter off that but also how Effective

51:11

he was when they slid him inside and

51:14

some nickel rush situations during the one-on-ones over

51:16

guards and centers and it was a mismatch

51:19

So I thought he was a Friday guy all

51:21

the way But

51:23

when teams go back and evaluate the

51:25

one-on-one pass rushes at the senior ball

51:28

Don't be surprised if you don't hear his name sneak

51:30

in at the bottom of the first round I mean

51:33

chopped Robinson's another kid to place very hard.

51:35

It's just the size may be a concern

51:39

Is another guy that I thought played very hard

51:42

He may not have had the sack

51:44

numbers, but he disrupts the quarterback And

51:47

when you watch him in the Texas game, he

51:49

brushed from the left side from the right side He

51:52

had an effect on yours in that game

51:55

and probably helped them win that game because

51:57

of the way he played So there's a

51:59

lot of a lot of, I think, good

52:01

pass rushers. Is there an elite pass rusher

52:03

like a Miles Garrett? I don't

52:05

know if I've seen one of those guys. But

52:08

I don't know, and I'm asking you this,

52:10

did you think Will Anderson was an elite

52:13

player coming out of Alabama last year? I

52:17

did think Will Anderson was an elite overall

52:19

prospect. I didn't, and maybe not

52:21

the pure pass rusher, the Garrett

52:23

or TJ Watt

52:26

or a one of the Boses, but I thought Anderson

52:28

was one of the best all around. I

52:31

thought he was clearly above Tyree

52:33

Will. I know there was some Tyree Wilson discussion last

52:35

year because of the traits of Wilson, but I thought

52:37

it was clearly Anderson. So

52:39

he looked pretty good as

52:41

a rookie. I don't know if any of these

52:43

guys are as good as Will Anderson overall as a

52:46

prospect, in my opinion, but I agree with your

52:48

list there. Like that's a bunch of, I think, good

52:50

potential players there. The one thing is

52:52

when you're watching these guys, it was like

52:54

Will Anderson, they reduced him down a lot.

52:57

And so he was head up over a

52:59

tight end. And so

53:01

you didn't get to see what, you know, and then

53:03

he goes out to or get

53:06

drafted by Houston. Now they pay him in

53:08

that wide nine and let him pay your

53:10

ears back and go get the guy with

53:12

the opposite color jersey that's trying to throw

53:15

the ball. And you talk

53:17

about a guy that plays hard, snap in

53:19

and snap out. I don't

53:21

think you're seeing a lot of that in college,

53:23

but you also got to look at where they

53:26

were lining him up and then

53:28

how, and that's a great example of when you're

53:30

in these draft meetings. Well, we're

53:32

not going to put him in that head up

53:34

over a tight end. We're going to put him

53:36

in a wide nine or outside and just pin

53:38

his ears back and go. That's how we're going

53:40

to utilize him. I think that's

53:43

where the personnel and

53:45

the coaching, when they get together, they

53:47

have to be on the same page.

53:50

And I always relied on the

53:52

coaching staff is we could

53:54

tell you the strengths and weaknesses of this player,

53:56

but how are you going to use him

53:59

to make him. be the best

54:01

player he could be in our system. So

54:03

the coaches will go into, well, I

54:05

see him doing this or this or

54:07

this, or we wouldn't put him there,

54:09

we would put him there. And so

54:11

that's to me, and Kansas City does

54:13

a phenomenal job with Brett Veech and

54:15

Andy Reed and Spaggs

54:19

on all the hits they've hit on the

54:21

defensive side of the ball, are

54:23

really married up to

54:26

the personnel they're watching and how they'll be

54:28

utilized in the scheme. Yeah,

54:31

I wanted to talk a little bit about process

54:33

stuff because you're hinting at a little bit here.

54:35

What does that process look like? So what does

54:37

a draft meeting look

54:39

like? Are you looking at several

54:42

players in a row? And

54:44

when you're breaking down a player, is it

54:46

personnel plus coaching? And you're just saying, here's

54:48

the guy, let's watch him together, let's talk

54:51

about him. What does a draft meeting look

54:53

like for you? Well, most of the time

54:55

right now, it's just the personnel getting the

54:57

initial board set before they go to the

54:59

combine. Coaches are not involved

55:01

because they haven't had time to look at any of

55:04

the college tape. So what

55:06

you're hoping is that you're stacking the

55:10

board according to league

55:12

value, but your scouts

55:14

because they've been with the coaches,

55:16

hey, I know this

55:18

34 nose tackle,

55:20

Trevondre, okay,

55:24

will not fit in our scheme, but someone's going to

55:26

take a swing on us kid because he's going to

55:28

be a really good two

55:30

down, run-stopping nose tackle.

55:34

Our defensive tackles have to penetrate. We

55:36

will give him that value of

55:39

where he's probably going to get drafted,

55:41

but he may not be identified as

55:43

a team fit for us. So

55:46

the scouts and

55:48

personnel go through, stack the

55:50

initial board. We always gave

55:52

the coaches the list then too, they

55:55

usually got 25 to 30 guys at their position. They

55:58

spent the month of... you know,

56:01

getting back from the combine and probably

56:03

started right before the combine, starting

56:05

to look at these guys and had a whole

56:08

month to get through that until we came together

56:10

in April. Then the coaches and scouts

56:12

get together. We go through

56:14

each position. After the coaches leave,

56:16

we start weaving the horizontal piece

56:18

of it. But then I

56:21

would give the coaches clusters. Listen, we

56:23

were a little, there was some discrepancy

56:25

here. So

56:27

it was great because the offensive defensive

56:30

staff would then do a group

56:32

study together. We would do

56:34

a group study together separately.

56:36

So even the quarterback coach and

56:38

the receiver coach are looking at some

56:40

of these offensive tackles. So

56:42

come back with your staff's rankings

56:44

of these guys. And

56:47

the same thing on the defensive side. And then

56:49

we'd come and marry it all together. And

56:52

if there was still discrepancies, then we would

56:54

watch the tape. And the

56:56

coaches would really, coaches were

56:58

more, they don't care about how they

57:00

get graded for the leg. They're more worried about this

57:02

guy is going to fit us or not fit us.

57:05

And if he does fit us, this is how we're

57:07

going to use them. Love

57:09

it. Yeah, it's so much

57:12

to the process, Rick. I love it. That's great. I've

57:15

heard other GMs even this early

57:17

in the process have

57:19

like a broad idea of

57:22

a player and a round and

57:24

the potential that you might get them. Is

57:26

it two or like, I know every process

57:28

is different. Would you, are you in that

57:30

mindset as early as February or are you

57:32

in April? No, no, I put,

57:35

you know, now I know I have a pretty good,

57:37

you know, where most of these guys are going to

57:39

go. Not so much where they're going to go, but

57:41

like who you might actually pick, right? Like, oh, yeah,

57:43

fourth, we might actually have this receiver available and this

57:45

could be our pick as early as February. Those

57:48

are how you may dictate on

57:51

who your formal interviews are going

57:53

to be at the combine. Yeah.

57:55

So because we had

57:57

December meetings and most of them

57:59

were backboard. maybe the initial list. As

58:02

a GM, you're reading all the grades coming in and

58:04

then you're trying to get caught up on the tape

58:07

as much as you can. So

58:10

when you get ready to go to the

58:12

combine, then you're gonna have, hey,

58:14

we gotta make sure we

58:16

get in front of these 60 guys. I

58:18

think it's a 60, you get 60

58:20

formal interviews, but that's not

58:22

60 or the top 60 in the draft. They're

58:26

spread out where I think these four guys

58:28

are gonna be where we're picking in the

58:30

first round. These eight

58:32

guys may be second round, so

58:35

you spread it out, so you

58:38

get in front of guys, not only that you're gonna

58:40

potentially pick in the first round, but also

58:42

guys that you're going to be looking at on Saturday

58:44

as well. I think there's 321 invites to the combine

58:46

this year. Most

58:51

teams have about 150 on their draft board on

58:55

who they would consider draftable. All

58:59

right, man, it's been awesome talking ball

59:01

again. I'm sure you didn't learn anything

59:03

again. I apologize, one of these days

59:05

we'll... I keep learning about this basketball

59:07

theory you have. I

59:11

still, two years later, I still can't get it.

59:13

I can't put it together in my head. If

59:15

you're stuck without a top quarterback, you gotta

59:18

do everything. Uncover every

59:20

rock. Okay, boy,

59:22

that's a new revelation. I never heard of

59:24

that. I know, right? That's a one

59:26

way to... Yeah, one of my old bosses

59:28

said, you have to stick

59:31

your hand up a lot of ghost arses

59:33

to find a diamond. I

59:36

think that's what I'm getting at. That's

59:38

well said. But you did it more politically correct than

59:41

me. Yeah, as we said, we have

59:43

to be here. I did

59:45

have some kind of follow up, but I don't even remember

59:47

what it was, which is great. I

59:49

don't know. Anything else you wanna talk about while

59:51

we're here? No, but hopefully you'll have me

59:54

out again. I kinda enjoy sitting here talking

59:56

ball with you for an hour.

59:58

I'm shocked. Well, at least you got that on. but I'm

1:00:00

shocked you do. No, that's good. Our

1:00:02

listeners loved our conversation last year. I

1:00:04

think the process stuff, I

1:00:07

think is fantastic, given some insight as to what it's

1:00:09

like in the seat and where you're

1:00:11

going through all the process. Even, I was gonna ask about

1:00:13

how you set the interviews with the

1:00:15

combine to answer that on your own. So that was

1:00:17

great. So I'll see you, maybe I'll see you in

1:00:19

Indy then. I will be there. Are you gonna have

1:00:21

your little booth or your little rooms?

1:00:23

We've got our rooms set up. Any

1:00:26

free giveaways this year? Usually I come by just

1:00:28

to get something free. Probably

1:00:30

have like a nice pen or something for you. Not great.

1:00:33

Notebook. I mean, this takes probably

1:00:35

the leftovers from last year. Here,

1:00:37

Rick, here's a pile for you. We

1:00:40

will have our little corner in the

1:00:42

JW Marriott again. Most teams will roll

1:00:44

through there and media members

1:00:46

like yourself will also walk

1:00:48

through there as well. Just to get my free

1:00:50

pen for the year. Great.

1:00:53

Well, let's hang out in Indy for at least

1:00:55

a few minutes. I'll get you your free swag

1:00:57

and that's your appreciation for being on the podcast

1:00:59

here today. No,

1:01:02

it's serious that you guys do a phenomenal job

1:01:04

and to be honest with you, with

1:01:06

your product, it makes my job as

1:01:08

an analyst now on the media side

1:01:10

a hundred times easier. We used it

1:01:13

at the team level and I

1:01:15

used to ruffle your feathers

1:01:17

just to see how you would respond sometimes,

1:01:20

but it's an awesome product. And to be

1:01:22

honest with you, I couldn't do what I

1:01:24

do now without your product and everything you

1:01:26

guys do at PFF. Well,

1:01:29

we appreciate it, Rick, always. And- Two

1:01:31

pairs of style? Yes, you get, I'll

1:01:33

get you the good swag because of

1:01:35

the testimonial, you'll get whatever you want.

1:01:39

So we'll have you back again, maybe

1:01:41

even before the draft, we'll do it

1:01:43

again. So. All right, sounds

1:01:46

great. Yeah, thanks, Steve. Yeah. All

1:01:48

right, great having Rick Spielman on the

1:01:50

show. Appreciate always having him. Hit

1:01:53

us up with any more questions. If I missed

1:01:55

anything with Rick, as he said, he

1:01:57

likes doing the show. He likes doing this, likes talking balls.

1:01:59

So we can have- him back on if you've got any

1:02:01

other questions we could fire them his

1:02:03

way. So you know

1:02:05

it's combine time coming up soon and

1:02:08

there's a whole level to

1:02:10

the process. Love hearing that from Rick

1:02:12

where the scouts are, how they get

1:02:14

the coaches involved, how they have to prepare

1:02:17

for all their combine interviews and

1:02:19

it's just the beginning of the draft process. And

1:02:22

you know there's still there's still so much more to

1:02:24

do post combine and you know getting the

1:02:26

whole organization on board. So always love hearing those

1:02:29

types of stories from a

1:02:31

former general manager. All right,

1:02:33

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1:02:35

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1:02:37

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1:02:48

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drinkag1.com/pff. Go check it

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out right now. Alright

1:03:53

man I usually talk to Sam

1:03:55

like that but Sam's not here I got nobody to talk

1:03:57

to sitting here talking to myself. This is the dream Sam's

1:03:59

gone. I can just

1:04:01

monologue by myself. That's

1:04:04

it for today. That's our Monday show. Appreciate Rick

1:04:06

Spielman joining. Sam will

1:04:08

be back on Wednesday. And

1:04:11

I think Thursday we'll probably get

1:04:13

into some wide receiver rankings. Wednesday

1:04:15

though, mail back. NFLpodcast at pff.com.

1:04:18

Send us your questions. It's draft

1:04:20

season. It's free agent season. It's offseason

1:04:22

season. It's time to talk all

1:04:24

about team building. So we got a lot of

1:04:26

fun stuff coming up here. So we want to

1:04:29

hear from you in the email

1:04:31

room. Email room? The

1:04:33

mail bag. Man, I'm lost. I'm by

1:04:36

myself. All right. Thanks everybody for tuning in. We'll see

1:04:38

you again on Wednesday with more PFF, NFL podcast.