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Hey Dinner SOS listeners, exciting

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Go to vote.signalaward.com

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0:32

No,

0:34

no,

0:34

it's okay. I'm

0:38

a little rusty. So hopefully

0:40

this is good. Okay. Let's

0:43

kick it.

0:45

This is the Pitchfork Review. I'm Pooja

0:47

Patel, the editor-in-chief. And

0:49

today we're going to dive into Olivia

0:52

Rodrigo's new album, Guts. Olivia

0:55

first found huge success as a longtime

0:57

Disney TV star before releasing

0:59

her debut album Sour in 2021. You

1:03

might remember Driver's License, the

1:05

heart-wrenching teen ballad that hung out at

1:07

the top of the charts for what seemed like forever,

1:10

or the nostalgic pop punk anthem Good 4

1:13

U. Now she's 20 years

1:15

old, has

1:15

won a few Grammys, and just released

1:17

one of the most anticipated albums of the

1:19

year. Here to

1:22

spill their guts. No, you did it. How

1:24

do you feel about the new album? We talked

1:26

about this. Is Jeremy Larson and Kat

1:28

Zeng. Hello, welcome. Hello,

1:30

we're back, baby. I

1:35

don't know these people. Okay,

1:37

so let's start with our

1:40

impulse reactions. We all listened to this album

1:42

together in the Pitchfork listening room

1:45

in real time a day or two before

1:47

it was released. And Kat, you

1:49

reviewed the album, so I think you kind of went

1:51

off and started listening to it on repeat immediately thereafter.

1:55

But what was your first Twitter review, 140

1:57

characters or less, take? I

2:00

thought it was really fun and had so much

2:02

personality in a way that I didn't expect listening

2:04

to Sour because Sour was more of like a heartbroken

2:07

breakup album. And then I thought that maybe

2:09

the ballads were kind of duds. But

2:12

overall, I was very pleasantly surprised by

2:14

how much character it had.

2:16

Jeremy? My

2:19

cynicism was washed away almost

2:21

immediately. Hell yeah. The minute that

2:24

I listened to this, because I still

2:26

remain a little skeptical of Sour. And

2:28

I think I was a little protective

2:31

of my little rock music that

2:33

I grew up loving so much. But

2:35

I think with this album, she really won

2:37

me over.

2:38

Well, Olivia Rodrigo

2:40

has grown up a lot in two years. As she

2:43

has said in multiple interviews,

2:46

I am quoting a line from her interview with

2:48

Phoebe Bridgers where in response to

2:50

something, she says, I must have been

2:52

wide eyed, bushy tailed, and 18 years

2:55

old then. And

2:58

then also in, I think

3:01

her own PR, she says something about growing

3:03

up by 10 years in

3:05

the span of 18 to 20. And

3:08

as someone

3:09

who is... Oh God.

3:10

And that's a mood, okay? As

3:12

someone who is far removed from being 18, Kat,

3:16

do you mind maybe

3:18

just giving us the explainer

3:22

on like where Olivia Rodrigo

3:24

is in her life and the distance between 17

3:27

and 20? My

3:30

friends and I love to be like, wow, 23 year

3:33

olds, 24 year olds are the worst. And then it's

3:35

like, well, how many years past

3:37

that are we? So

3:39

Olivia Rodrigo has spent basically her entire

3:42

life acting or doing some sort

3:44

of performance. She started out at Disney.

3:46

She was on the show called Bizarre Vark

3:48

where she plays like a teen vlogger.

3:50

And then she went to High School Musical,

3:52

the musical, the series, which is

3:55

this TV show about

3:57

kids who go to the same high school as... musical

4:00

was filmed and then they do a theatrical

4:02

production of High School Musical.

4:05

So both of those shows that she was a part of are

4:08

extremely meta. She is playing

4:11

performers or someone you know

4:13

has like public facing in both of them which

4:15

I think then like threads in her work in

4:17

an interesting way because in a lot of her music videos

4:20

she was very clearly signaling to you that she

4:22

is like performing. But

4:25

the first real song that she released was like a High

4:27

School Musical, the musical of a serious song

4:29

which

4:29

is called All I Want and

4:32

it was into a ballad.

4:45

And then she released

4:47

driver's license it almost

4:49

like immediately went viral and

4:52

that kind of kick-started her career. She claims

4:54

that she wasn't anticipating to be that

4:56

popular and her goal wasn't to be

4:59

like a pop star it was more to be like

5:01

a singer-songwriter and she seems like very

5:03

intensely focused on craft. I should

5:05

also backtrack a little and say that like she had

5:08

like a funny rap song with Bizzard

5:10

of Arc but she like didn't

5:11

go the traditional Bizzard of Arc.

5:14

Was he on Rhymesayers? Or

5:17

was he on...no just kidding.

5:19

But she like in contrast

5:21

to a lot of other like Disney stars.

5:23

She didn't really like release a lot of music

5:26

through the Disney Channel ecosystem

5:28

and she signed Elsewhere and she like had

5:31

control of her masters and she like intentionally

5:33

picked collaborators like Dan Nigro because

5:36

they were like willing to give her criticism.

5:38

Anyway, she blew up with driver's license.

5:41

It seems like she was dealing with some heartbreak. She

5:43

made a breakup album with Sour

5:46

and then after Sour who's

5:48

dealing with like a lot of immediate fame

5:51

and it seems like in the song she talks

5:53

about like wanting some of the shinier

5:55

aspects of celebrity but

5:57

also being wary of it and then...

5:59

I think she felt

6:01

immediate pressure to follow up sour,

6:04

could prove that she had chops and

6:06

to resist this narrative of like, this

6:09

music is really good for a young girl.

6:11

Like she's so young. So it

6:14

seems like

6:14

she just felt like she had to prove herself and

6:17

that's where we're at coming in too.

6:20

You look like you have a question. I

6:22

can see it

6:22

brewing. I just realized I have

6:24

a

6:25

terminal chronic illness, which

6:27

is that I'm 38 years old. I'm

6:31

so sorry for you. And I just sort of feel like

6:34

that you guys need to sort of hold space for

6:37

me there. That I do, I'm afflicted

6:40

with that. I'm

6:40

not that much younger than you, but I

6:42

think I'm like a decade

6:43

younger in heart. Well, I think I

6:46

just, I want to go back like real quick to

6:48

driver's license because that was, I

6:50

was sort of watching this happen without any of that

6:52

context. And I was watching the song explode

6:55

in popularity. And I was like, who is this

6:57

person? To me, she appeared out

6:59

of nowhere, but there was for a generation

7:02

who grew up watching her on High School Musical, the musical,

7:04

the movie, the series. Like

7:07

that, they were really excited

7:09

that like this person has broken

7:11

out of the sort of Disney realm and is

7:13

now in the pop star realm with the big leagues.

7:16

I mean,

7:17

I feel the exact same way. I knew

7:19

that she was

7:19

a Disney person. I had no real background

7:21

though,

7:22

but then and now

7:25

she felt like a theater

7:26

kid, right?

7:27

Kat, it sounds like she's reconciling

7:29

with both being young

7:32

and not wanting to be kind

7:34

of boxed into the idea of

7:37

what a young person is. So

7:39

it's like half performance

7:41

spectacle and half earnest. And

7:44

it's like really hard for us to distinguish

7:47

which is which song by song.

7:50

Who is Olivia Rodrigo

7:52

right now? Like who is she presenting to

7:54

the world in this album? Thematically,

7:58

spiritually,

7:58

otherwise. As

8:02

like

8:03

a messy bitch, like I

8:06

think she seems like

8:09

after Sour, she seemed

8:11

almost a little bit embarrassed by

8:14

the fact that it was a Heartbreak album

8:16

or I watched her documentary Driving

8:18

Home to You where she was talking about the process

8:20

of making Sour and like wanted

8:22

to add Brutal and some of the

8:24

other more rocky songs just to give

8:27

it kind of a variation because she didn't want to

8:29

be steeped in that sort of like weepier

8:31

mode for a while. And so on this album,

8:34

there are a lot of songs about basically like

8:37

disappointing your friends by hitting

8:40

up your horrible ex and

8:42

then having like being like, I

8:44

should not do this, but also like it's so

8:46

fun to be devious. And

8:48

then there's another part of the album, which is

8:50

her reckoning with her fame

8:53

and being self aware

8:56

about it or just being like, you

8:58

know, I was thrust into this whirlwind

9:01

after Sour and I made some bad decision

9:03

on making the bed. She

9:05

talks about being a fan of other friends.

9:17

On Teenage Dreams, she's grappling

9:19

with people seeing her as this like precocious

9:22

person. What if she can't live up to that? But also

9:24

like that kind of commentary can be

9:27

so condescending. So those

9:29

are the things that she's reckoning with

9:31

and the house is presenting herself like both a messy

9:34

person and also someone who's trying

9:36

to really seriously think about where she's

9:38

situated in her career.

9:39

I think so much about being young is about

9:42

feeling self-consciousness and like feeling

9:44

aware of your every action. So much of life.

9:47

Right. Exactly. Right.

9:50

But it's sort of you hope that like with every year

9:52

you become you're like, oh, maybe

9:54

I will settle into this identity or maybe something

9:56

else will happen in this next year where I will I will

9:59

now become this. and that will be who I

10:01

will be forever. And

10:03

I will stop having to waffle between

10:06

like other people's idea of me, my own idea

10:08

of myself. And I feel like that

10:10

is also what it's like to write a sophomore

10:13

album, to write a second album. You

10:15

spend your entire first life writing your first album. Your second

10:17

album, you just have all of the shit in your head of

10:20

like, what are people gonna think about me? Like, I

10:22

don't wanna go back into writing tabloid

10:24

songs, but I have to write about the truth of my life.

10:27

And I feel like what's so good about

10:29

this album

10:29

is that you can feel her trying to like get

10:32

out of her head and just write the simple

10:34

thing and say it simply, but she's

10:36

still a really good lyricist. And look,

10:38

like respect to Katy Perry's Teenage Dream,

10:41

like there are not a lot of cliches

10:43

on this album. Like there's not a lot of sort

10:45

of

10:46

goofy aphorisms that feel

10:48

a little- There's so many, are you? You're

10:50

all here to die. There

10:52

are a million. Okay, right. Oh

10:54

my God! So it's like half of the fun

10:56

of this

10:56

album is how many one-liners are

10:59

exact cliches. Okay,

11:02

but they're not like Katy

11:03

Perry level, where they're like greeting cards,

11:05

kind of Hallmark-y thing. All the

11:07

ballads, like there are some, like pretty isn't

11:09

pretty, it's like cliche after cliche.

11:11

I'm a beautiful boy, beautiful

11:14

baby, crying every

11:16

other day, cliche,

11:18

cliche, cliche, cliche. I

11:26

also would say like,

11:27

to be clear, I don't think that cliches

11:29

are bad when they're wielded

11:32

in a strong way.

11:33

No, I think she renders relatable

11:35

feelings in a unique way. That's

11:37

what I would say about, that's how I would qualify that.

11:40

Super, super,

11:42

super referential album. Whether

11:44

she intended it or not, there's just

11:46

like generations of references

11:49

in the music. And something that I immediately

11:51

thought about were two songs,

11:53

speaking about being a messy bitch. The

11:57

song by Garbage, Stupid Girl. song

12:00

by no doubt, I'm Just a Girl, and

12:03

how there was this era

12:06

of girls reflecting on what

12:08

society must think of them and then rebelling

12:10

against it. I'm just a

12:12

girl in the world, that's

12:15

all that you've had to be

12:17

made. All

12:20

I'm to fear is an untouchability.

12:24

This album feels like the flip of that.

12:27

It feels like Olivia Rodrigo being like, in

12:29

fact I am messy and dumb

12:32

and a woman and like fuck

12:35

you, double metal fingers out. That

12:37

performance to me is really, really

12:39

fun and feels like core to this album. It's

12:41

actually just like not only

12:43

am I a

12:44

stupid girl or just a little girl, but

12:47

I embrace that wholeheartedly and I

12:49

am like being fun with it. Yeah, I

12:51

feel there's not a lot of society in

12:53

this album. Wait,

12:55

it's All American Bitch, not a society

12:58

song?

12:59

That's a good point. You raise a

13:01

really good point because

13:04

that is like I heard just sort of a sarcastic

13:06

thing of like who do you want

13:07

to be? I'm

13:09

grateful all the time, I'm sexy. That is so theater. That is

13:11

very much a musical theater song for sure.

13:27

Do we want to talk about influences that

13:29

we hear on the album or do we want to talk

13:31

about good songs? Let's talk about what we hear

13:33

on the album. The minute we heard it, I just

13:35

sort of like here's a playlist of 25 songs

13:37

that I hear from going through

13:39

this. And this is a lot of stuff that was on our first

13:42

album. I think one of the main things that

13:44

someone my age might hear is like Elastica.

13:47

But you know, I hear like L7

13:49

and Hole and I hear a lot of

13:51

Billie Eilish in this too. Like I

13:54

think they're contemporaries obviously,

13:56

but Billie Eilish and Lorde have

13:58

had such an enormous

13:59

Impact in the pop landscape

14:02

in the last five years that it's hard not

14:04

to just drink the water and taste

14:07

some of that I also hear like

14:09

on her ballads I hear like Phil Collins

14:12

ballads, you know, like like those 80s

14:14

like Berlin take my breath away That's

14:16

just some of it. I don't want you to list this whole thing.

14:19

What do you guys hear?

14:21

Everything I I

14:25

Don't know bringing in some younger references

14:28

like the pop rock girls on

14:30

a song like love is embarrassing I hear

14:32

someone like Kelly Clarkson and

14:34

just like that that's nearing tone All

14:37

American

14:39

bitch when she's sort of

14:41

like thrashing about I hear a

14:43

lot of like Avril Lavigne

14:49

or like the All-American

14:58

rejects and that Generally,

15:01

I think about the Veronica's and

15:03

then and some of the more campy performance

15:05

songs A lot of her younger fans had pointed

15:07

out that one bad idea, right? She sounds

15:10

like Chapel Rhone He was another young

15:12

artist who works with Dan Nigro I feel

15:15

like a commonality among like pop stars

15:17

who work with him is that they've been

15:19

doing these sort of bratty

15:21

wrapping theatrical songs

15:24

with a lot of like different sonic styles

15:26

kind of meshed into one I

15:29

hear some Marina in the diamonds

15:31

and the way that she elevates her voice

15:33

on love is embarrassing words like But

15:38

like yeah, that's that feels like a big Marina

15:41

moment and then some like Kesha

15:43

also in her affect and the

15:45

wrapping Whenever she's being a little delirious.

15:48

That's what I hear. Um, I

15:50

lost my mind listening

15:53

to get him back As

15:55

I heard every song that was ever written

16:00

You suddenly became one with the entire

16:03

universe Like

16:05

that is a banger it's

16:07

gonna hit so hard We should

16:09

talk about that song in depth just because I think that

16:11

is one of the huge highlights for

16:14

a lot of the staff Okay,

16:16

can I can I lay out all of the things

16:18

that I hear

16:18

in get him back? Good,

16:21

so like there's this whole stadium

16:23

stomp element to it. Charlie

16:26

XCX boom clap very clearly Hold

16:29

your nose is like your ears bleachers. I

16:32

want to get better Taylor

16:35

we are never ever getting back together huge

16:38

sleigh bells

16:39

and then

16:41

creation Gucci Gucci

16:43

Finally

16:46

some be nasty Bay Area representation

16:50

Like rap rock be gone

16:53

creation, please enter the room

16:54

the creation The

16:56

creation of science. Um, can we talk

16:59

just about that song for a second

17:01

like Gucci Gucci?

17:04

I'm telling you

17:06

the tenor of her voice in

17:08

that and like the kind

17:10

of like monotonous Speak

17:13

in it.

17:13

It's crazy. Can I see

17:15

that also reminded me of pepper by butthole

17:18

surfers Remember that song

17:20

and I'm gonna throw out another Recommended

17:23

if you like one of the greatest pop punk

17:25

songs of all time fat lip by some 41

17:29

Which is like rapping in the chorus

17:31

and then an absolutely killer hook, you

17:33

know, even Beastie Boys Beastie Boys

17:36

Yeah, yeah, and and like for cat

17:38

a modern reference Would be

17:41

for you is a hundred Gex Hollywood, baby,

17:43

which I actually think this album

17:45

shares a lot of like heart and soul

17:59

Let

18:01

me sort of bring this back to why this is

18:04

a pop album, right? Music's

18:06

always in conversation with itself, like since

18:08

the dawn of pop music, it's always been talking

18:10

to itself. I think what's so fun about this album

18:12

is that it's having so many cool

18:15

conversations, you know? Yeah,

18:17

we can play spot the references all day long,

18:19

but that's in part, like, that's why it's

18:21

so rewarding to listen to because

18:24

you hear somebody who's so connected with the

18:27

present of what's happening. This isn't a nostalgia album. I

18:30

heard people saying, like, oh, it's just like a nostalgia,

18:31

like bait. And I'm like, I don't think

18:34

so because there's so much new stuff

18:36

here, you know? But you can

18:38

hear it talking to things that happened 15, 20, 30 years

18:40

ago.

18:42

Yeah, and then it's so disheartening to see people

18:44

just like try to play police where it's like

18:47

she is copying other people. And it's like, no,

18:49

you don't really understand how music works.

18:51

You got to steal. You got to steal stuff.

18:55

Because it feels like the future just isn't

18:57

what it used to be. But it's coming whether

19:00

we like it or not. On Have a Nice Future,

19:02

a weekly podcast from Wired, we

19:04

talk to the leaders, thinkers and innovators

19:07

who are trying to shape our collective tomorrow.

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Technology is never politically neutral. We have designed

19:13

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19:15

a prisoner of it. The big existential

19:18

crisis here really is about money

19:21

and ownership. I'm Gideon Litchfield,

19:23

editor-in-chief of Wired.

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And I'm Lauren Good, senior writer at Wired.

19:27

Each week on this show, we're asking our guests and

19:29

ourselves whether the future we're getting

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is the future

19:32

we want. Listen to Wired's

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Have a Nice Future. There's a new episode

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19:38

There's a new music podcast called One

19:41

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blends comedy with music and is hosted by

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19:49

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music producer and TikTok creator Blake

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they hilariously break down one song

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20:02

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Listen to one song wherever you get your podcasts.

20:11

Okay, a lot of highlights, a lot of references,

20:14

a lot of things

20:14

that are really fun on this album. What

20:17

are your favorite songs? Mine

20:20

is Vampire. And I've come around to

20:22

this... Fascinating. Fascinating.

20:25

Fascinating. Wait, why? And

20:28

you had a conversation about Vampire

20:30

when that song came out. Yeah,

20:32

you were not into it. You were not into it. So,

20:35

in fact, this side of the table

20:37

was like, please get

20:39

into it, Jeremy. Now let me explain why.

20:41

Okay, so what

20:43

I realized about this song is that this

20:46

song is talking to my

20:48

inner musical theater kid. And

20:50

I think I was trying to silence that because

20:53

I wanted to be cool. But what I realized

20:55

is that this song is Adele's

20:58

Hello Meets Defying Gravity

21:00

from Wicked. You're

21:03

not selling this song? No, but that's

21:05

what it is. That's what the song is. It is about

21:07

builds. It is about hitting

21:10

giant chest voice money notes

21:12

at the end that nobody else can sing. And

21:14

that's what was so rewarding about those

21:17

two moments. And I think this is her big diva

21:19

moment

21:20

on it. And I was a little skeptical

21:22

of Olivia Rodrigo, the diva,

21:24

when that lane is so very much filled

21:26

with a lot of other people. But I've

21:29

come around to this song and I think

21:31

the moment when the drums kick in and the

21:34

rave up kind of starts at the end, it's really

21:36

hard not to be swept away in

21:38

the drama of it.

21:52

Bloodsucker fame fucker is

21:55

an incredible double punch.

21:57

That's my hands down. We already talked about

21:59

it.

21:59

get him back. Every single line

22:02

is a banger. The conceit is so clever

22:04

of like, I wanna get him back as in like,

22:06

I wanna get revenge and then I wanna get him back as in

22:09

like,

22:09

come back to my life and let's make out. Mm-hmm.

22:13

So many funny lines like, I am my

22:15

father's daughter, maybe I can fix him, her dad's

22:17

a therapist.

22:19

Even like the part at the end where she's

22:21

like, I got him good or whatever. And

22:23

then the joke is like, obviously, you didn't get

22:25

him good. It's such a fun song

22:28

and like her cleverness really shines through.

22:30

And then another song that is

22:32

super funny in a similar vein is Ballad

22:34

of a Homeschooled Girl. I love when she

22:36

goes,

22:38

thought your mom was your wife, called you the

22:40

wrong name twice, can't think of a third line,

22:42

la la la la la.

22:43

Great moment. The

22:45

truth of your day is,

22:48

you're my favorite. You're

22:51

my favorite. You're

22:53

my favorite. I wanna know who you are. Can you tell

22:56

me who my third line was? Yeah.

23:00

For me, I love love

23:02

is embarrassing. Mm-hmm. But

23:04

the kicker is bad idea,

23:07

right? Like,

23:08

very curious to see where it ranks our year endless.

23:11

The lies we tell ourselves in order

23:13

to get through the day have been encapsulated

23:16

in this song in such a perfect way.

23:19

Like, senior tonight is a bad idea, right?

23:22

And then you say it enough times

23:24

to convince yourself that maybe it's a good idea.

23:27

Just this girl creating

23:30

chaos for herself and then convincing

23:32

herself that it is the right move. I

23:34

guess it's not the end. It's

23:37

the end. It's

23:39

the end. We are your seventh.

23:42

We are your seventh. We

23:44

are your seventh. We are

23:46

your seventh. Alan, who is that?

23:48

So fun, so perfect. Another,

23:51

like, I hear L7 on it, but I also...

23:55

Yes! You're

23:57

gonna love this. I'm staring directly at Jeremy.

23:59

Okay, hear me out. Todie's

24:02

possum kingdom.

24:03

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm with it. I'm

24:05

with that

24:06

cat saying is logged out of the chat

24:07

Texas's

24:10

own toady's I feel like not

24:12

only sonically, but this is like indirect

24:15

conversation with the lyrics of that

24:17

It's the

24:19

distorted bass to it's great.

24:21

I'm hearing and seeing

24:23

like this song from 20 years ago speaking

24:26

directly to the response that this

24:29

Current pop star is singing.

24:31

Yeah Okay, we'll do

24:34

we'll do possum Kingdom at karaoke watch

24:36

one person do to karaoke. You'll be one over forever. It's

24:38

great

24:39

Um, let's talk about songs that maybe

24:41

didn't hit what could have

24:43

been cut. We gave this an 8.0 It

24:45

was slightly under B&M

24:48

that implies that there was something that could have

24:50

left I

24:52

Feel like the most immediate cut

24:54

and I feel like a lot of people are in agreement

24:56

with this like not just in our staff But

24:59

generally speaking like she should have cut logical.

25:01

I think the writing it just seems

25:03

like we're suspended in the world of cliche

25:06

like water raining currents

25:10

castles built up high in Contrast

25:12

to something like vampire where there's like a few

25:15

wording choices to kind of make

25:17

the tropes more interesting It doesn't really seem like

25:19

that exists here. And then

25:21

it is a more like downtempo

25:24

valid so Especially

25:26

when put up against these really fun

25:28

animated songs It just feels

25:31

like even if you're not listening to the lyrics

25:33

just feels like a dad What's your take on

25:35

the grudge?

25:36

Which I don't think is a cut actually

25:39

It was just disappointing to hear in the

25:41

context of the album because it sounds

25:44

so much like driver's license And

25:46

it could be intentional but it's still just like not

25:48

super

25:49

fun Like it really just feels

25:52

like a retread I

25:53

feel like a lot of the ballads if you listen

25:56

to them independently There are things

25:58

that you can pick up on that you really like

26:00

but they somehow feel like they ruined

26:02

the momentum of the album. The sequencing

26:05

is a little bit strange, I

26:07

feel like, right? Lacey appears pretty high

26:10

up and cuts what

26:12

is a pretty, like,

26:13

rollicking set right before

26:15

that. The ballads just feel, like, overly

26:17

produced. There's kind of like a twinkly feeling

26:19

to every little bit of it. I don't

26:21

think they're dishonest. I don't think there's a guy with

26:24

a cigar in his mouth, and you're like, you gotta have

26:26

some ballads here, kid. Like, I don't think that's

26:28

happening. But some of the magic

26:30

comes off it. Even though I do think there's, like, really

26:32

good songwriting on the grudge and

26:35

Lacey, I actually think, is like a really

26:37

nice... Yeah, it's a well-written... It's like a really well-written song. I

26:40

see, and the thing about Lacey is that

26:42

it could have hit. For

26:45

me, it was the,

26:47

what we're calling the indie pop voice,

26:50

like the... Sorry.

26:51

The nine vowels in one... ...cursive

26:54

singing. That who's

26:57

darling for no reason,

27:00

I need a little more shoes, I

27:03

need a little more shoes, I

27:05

need a little more clothes.

27:08

I feel like there is, like, this fragile

27:11

vibrato element to

27:13

it that is part 30 other singers

27:16

that I wish she had just been herself singing

27:19

that. It sounds like boy genius audition.

27:21

Mm-hmm. Right. Well, and, like,

27:24

again, our generational gap is revealing

27:27

it's... Oh! Because,

27:30

yeah, it's like part Lorde, part Kate

27:33

Bush, part Bjork, part Phoebe,

27:35

part everything. But

27:38

it's like a forced warble.

27:40

Yeah. Jeremy, you have

27:42

access to these hidden songs.

27:45

There's bonus tracks on

27:47

each different vinyl version of this. And

27:50

one of them is a song called Obsessed, which

27:52

is probably the song that when people

27:54

hear it, they're going to be like, why wasn't this on this album?

27:57

It's kind of like she plays the role... of

28:01

the new girlfriend obsessing over

28:04

somebody's ex-girlfriend. If I were

28:06

to say why it was taken off the album, I would say it's probably

28:08

because it's too, she probably didn't want people

28:10

to speculate about who or what or when

28:13

or why like this happened. I don't

28:15

know, maybe we can take a listen to it and tell

28:17

me what you guys think. I'm so obsessed

28:20

with your ex.

28:21

I know she's been asleep on

28:23

my side of your bed and

28:25

I'm feeling, I'm starting

28:27

to know. I know

28:30

I'm gonna love you. We

28:33

can't tell you about my mommy, mommy, I'm

28:35

gonna say this one.

28:36

The line, I know she's been asleep

28:38

on my side of your bed and I can feel

28:41

it. Ah! Wait, yeah,

28:43

okay. Oh my God, I'm obsessed

28:45

with this song, it's

28:46

so good. Okay, this

28:49

is amazing to witness right now.

28:51

And I remember every detail you would

28:54

ever tell me, so be careful, baby. I

28:57

love when she plays the like creepy

28:59

psycho person. Wait, wait, wait, okay,

29:01

sorry, sorry. She's got those lips, she's

29:04

got those hips.

29:05

She's the life of every fucking party. All

29:07

right, can't go off.

29:08

Okay. We

29:12

all need a moment. Gay vibes

29:14

on this album, when we listen to Lacey,

29:16

I think I put in the slack

29:18

kind of homoerotic, trying

29:21

to be like diplomatic about the situation, but

29:23

I think this song and then Lacey are two

29:25

songs about being obsessed

29:27

with another woman in a way where it's kind

29:30

of envy, but also this sort of real

29:32

desire

29:32

baked

29:35

into it. And

29:38

Lacey, the way that she fixates

29:40

on the details of the other

29:43

person can feel super

29:45

romantic, ribbons

29:48

in your hair, she compares herself

29:51

to a perfume kind of lingering on

29:53

the skin. I really like the way

29:55

that she delivers the phrase, I

29:57

care, I care, I care. It's so... tender,

30:00

but there's also this huge

30:02

sense of defeat and this real vulnerability

30:05

to it.

30:06

I appreciate her willingness to

30:08

go there and to sort of explore

30:11

some of the intricacies of these

30:13

types of emotions

30:15

and that tension there, that's

30:17

probably, I guess, what I have to say about

30:19

the homoerotic vibes.

30:22

I also love, she

30:24

came into the Pitchfork office. We

30:27

got to talking about something which is kind of known,

30:29

which is that she's a huge fan of Alana's Morissette. And

30:33

this song, if you friends with your friends,

30:35

is she good in bed? Do you think about her?

30:38

No, it's fine.

30:38

Go on, tell me. You

30:40

ought to know vibes so hard. You

30:43

can hear it. Would she go down

30:46

on you in a theater? Theater. I

30:48

know the version of me. Would

30:52

she go down on

30:54

you in a theater? She's

30:58

got a funny, and even

31:00

she has your baby.

31:02

So we've been talking a lot about

31:05

just like Olivia as pop icon,

31:07

as

31:08

pop star, as embodiment

31:10

of young woman.

31:11

And all these references,

31:13

the one that we haven't said explicitly yet

31:16

is Taylor Swift, which is I think

31:18

a pretty immediate parallel also,

31:21

or that she's referenced Lana Del Rey

31:24

in song, or that she credited

31:27

Paramora on Good For You. Where

31:30

do we see Olivia standing

31:32

in the current pop moment?

31:35

Where does she play in the landscape of pop

31:38

music right now? So I think

31:40

to me there's been like two shifts

31:42

that happened before this. The first one was Madonna

31:44

in the 80s. And then I would also

31:46

say that something happened in the 2000s

31:49

where you had Amy Winehouse, Adele,

31:52

and Kate Nash. The Amy Winehouse,

31:55

Adele, like British pop thing

31:57

that was happening there was this huge shift.

32:00

And then you have to say that like that

32:02

has shifted again towards Taylor

32:04

Swift where I'm talking about pure pop

32:07

music Right like this is what does that mean?

32:09

I mean, I'm talking about I

32:12

hate using this word, but like

32:14

when you talk about pop girlies Yes,

32:19

you're speaking to

32:19

Those

32:21

so hard for me to say that's what I think about

32:24

when I think about like pure pop music, right? It's

32:26

like Katy Perry's Teenage Dream.

32:27

Exactly. Exactly And I think like this

32:29

to me is like speaks to a new generation

32:32

of pure pop music That is part

32:34

Taylor Swift part Phoebe Bridgers part

32:37

pop-punk revival, right? And like this is what

32:39

they're gonna look back on in 30 years

32:42

when they make a movie about 2023 it's

32:44

just gonna be Olivia Rodrigo

32:47

Because Billy Eilish

32:49

this whole thing was doing this sort of like trap Inflected

32:52

spooky stuff So that's already

32:55

a deviation from the pop and then

32:57

even this like pop-punk II thing We

33:00

see in like

33:01

I don't know like ABC D. E. F. U.

33:03

By Gale I like there are a lot of people

33:06

who are playing with this pop Popular

33:08

album by a long shot. I mean,

33:10

I also I'm I mean, let me put

33:12

forth Beyonce I know and do

33:15

a leap. I feel like dance

33:17

music

33:18

Well, that's a good question. Can you dance to this?

33:20

Like what is the dance factor of Olivia

33:23

Rodrigo? Is it just po going up

33:25

and down?

33:26

And then you

33:28

take your hairbrush and you give

33:30

the best performance of your life in your mirror

33:33

I do like the idea of thinking about this

33:36

as like major movements of music

33:38

Kind of like the mountain peaks that

33:41

like shoot up out of the earth around

33:43

pop music Historically

33:45

since the dawn of time have happened during like moments

33:47

of major strife and I feel

33:49

like part of the

33:51

appeal of Olivia Rodrigo and maybe

33:54

the lasting power of Her

33:56

and this album being at the ground

33:57

level of her career because she's 20

33:59

years old is that it is

34:02

a reflection of like looking

34:05

for frivolity and empowerment in

34:07

times of like deep anxiety and stress

34:09

and being a young person who

34:11

is doing that.

34:13

Ellie Golding had this quip earlier this year

34:15

where she introduced her album as my least personal

34:18

album yet, which was kind of a spin on how

34:20

artists are always advertising their music

34:22

as their most personal and this tendency

34:24

for artists may

34:27

be inspired by a Taylor or a Phoebe

34:29

to get like really specific

34:31

about their experiences and to sort

34:33

of like bear it all. Olivia's

34:35

album is not personal in that way. Like there's

34:37

no like red scarf detail or

34:39

anything like that. It's mostly her

34:42

inhabiting tropes and

34:44

like playing with them very well

34:46

or being like clever within those tropes, but she's

34:48

not bearing it all. And

34:51

also in interviews, she is really reticent

34:53

to get specific, especially

34:55

about like the gossipy things. So I think that's

34:57

kind of an interesting thing

34:59

to note

35:00

here is maybe moving away from this more

35:04

confessional singer songwriter type of

35:06

mode back to a

35:08

form of escapism, but that still

35:10

is real and sort of grounded

35:13

in real emotions.

35:14

Totally. Well,

35:16

we've talked about a lot before we part

35:18

ways. If you love this album,

35:21

what would you recommend to others to

35:23

listen to? The Veronica's 2007

35:27

album Hook Me Up, The 10 Things

35:30

I Hate About You soundtrack, Charlie

35:34

XCX's Sucker, Always's

35:37

Blue Rev.

35:37

If you really like this album, I

35:40

would recommend the whole second album Celebrity

35:42

Skin.

35:43

That's when they kind of turn up the gloss, turn up

35:45

the power pop. The dark

35:48

version of this album would

35:50

be listening to the Offsprings

35:52

debut album Smash, which is

35:55

I think also about low self-esteem

35:57

and going through life.

36:00

figuring shit out. Like Bad Idea

36:02

Right reminds me of Self Esteem, which

36:04

is a song that I listened to a lot when I was a kid.

36:24

That's a great song about hooking up with an ex

36:27

when you're drunk and fucked

36:28

up. I would recommend

36:31

No Doubt, Tragic Kingdom. I feel like

36:33

it's got spunked and it's got ballads

36:35

and it's got... Ska. And it's

36:37

got a young girl in her prime. Can't

36:40

really vouch for much like when Stefani is unsinsed,

36:42

but we'll take that era.

36:47

Well Jeremy and Kat, thank

36:49

you so much for coming on to talk. Oh Rod,

36:51

thanks for having us, Pooja.

36:53

It's been wonderful. Glad to

36:55

be back.

36:56

Would you say it's a good idea, right?

36:59

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