In a crowded 2020 Democratic field, the former Housing and Urban Development Secretary Julián Castro is looking for a way to set himself apart. One way he’s tried to do that is by taking on the issue of immigration—a favorite topic of President Donald Trump, and one that’s important to his base. In a wide-ranging conversation with the New Yorker editor David Remnick, Castro lays out his plan: to repeal the law that makes it a federal crime to enter the country without documentation, and to reform the federal agencies that enforce immigration policy. “The other reason that I put forward this bold immigration plan is I’m not afraid,” he tells Remnick. “I’m not afraid of the President on this issue. He’s counting on that he can stoke up enough fear and paranoia and enough people to get a small narrow Electoral College victory.”

But, in some ways, Castro’s plan stops short of what other Democrats have advocated. For example, he doesn’t support “abolishing ICE” entirely, saying instead that he would prefer to see the agency “reconstituted.”