0:03

This is the political scene and I'm David

0:05

Remnick. In

0:10

Nineteen Sixty Three, James Baldwin gave

0:12

his speech to a group of

0:14

teachers, encouraging them to grapple more

0:16

honestly with the realities of American

0:18

history. Baldwin

0:21

said this, you. Must understand

0:23

that in the attempt to correct so

0:25

many generations. Of bad faith and

0:27

cruelty when it is operating not

0:29

only in the classroom, But

0:32

in society, you'll. Meet the

0:34

most fantastic, the most brutal, and

0:36

the most determined resistance. There is

0:38

no point in pretending. That

0:40

this won't happen. Sixty

0:44

years. After Baldwin speech, it

0:46

is still happening and escalating

0:48

backlash against the teaching of

0:51

black history. Dozens of states

0:53

have proposed measures to restrict

0:55

teaching the history of race

0:57

and racism in Florida. New

1:00

State History Standard specify for

1:02

example, that enslaved people might

1:04

have benefited from slavery. Florida.

1:07

Schools must now teach students about

1:09

the quality benefit of slavery when

1:12

teaching black history. A controversial new

1:14

education standard passed by the State

1:16

Board of Education earlier this week

1:18

as follows Governor and a Santos

1:20

as so called Stop Woke act

1:22

which forced their rewriting of education

1:25

standards Hair and Florida at the

1:27

same time. Book bans are at

1:29

an astronomical level in New York

1:31

City, for example, one school recently

1:34

purged books dealing with black life

1:36

and other subjects. Hundreds of

1:38

bucks had been left with the

1:40

trash outside. Ps. Fifty five in

1:42

Staten Island. They were about black

1:44

history immigration. Conservatives argue

1:46

that they're protecting children from feeling

1:49

bad about their race and from

1:51

what they consider liberal indoctrination. This

1:53

is happening state by state. School

1:56

district by school district and it's

1:58

rarely in the headlines. So

2:00

to get a handle on the significance

2:02

of what's happening, I sat down with

2:04

a couple Hannah Jones. The New

2:07

York Times magazine reporter who first

2:09

developed a sixteen Ninety project. And

2:11

with the New Yorkers Jalonick carb

2:13

Giuliani as a long time staff

2:16

writer and he's the dean of

2:18

Columbia University Journalism School. Now.

2:25

Let's be clear, when speaking about Black

2:27

history, it includes everything from the history

2:29

of Ancient African kingdoms to the teaching

2:31

of modern innovation. So Nicole, let's start

2:34

with you. When. You were

2:36

in school in the eighties and in the

2:38

nineties. What? We learning and

2:40

what was missing. When. I was

2:42

an in school in the eighties because I'm too

2:45

young for that. Just kidding. Ah, Such.

2:49

As lane for. Ah you

2:51

know when I was in

2:53

school and are the eighties

2:55

and nineties, I just remember

2:57

learning very. Little about black Americans

2:59

are about slavery. Certainly be learned

3:01

almost nothing about the period between

3:04

slavery and the Civil Rights movement

3:06

and I remember added he was

3:08

one of the said yes and

3:10

we knew she was a journalist

3:13

by we didn't learn that her

3:15

journalism was around. Lynching Arm. And

3:17

it wasn't until High school that

3:19

all my high school offered a

3:21

one semester Black Studies Alasdair that

3:24

I really. Received any

3:26

real education about

3:28

an. African people on

3:30

the continent. Of Africa and Dance

3:33

at. A time to be since our

3:35

Black Americans to the largest society even

3:37

And global studies least that most of

3:39

our time in Europe. And.

3:41

A Very. Little time I'm in

3:43

the other continents arm. Of

3:46

the World. So was a very narrow

3:48

education and gave me a very narrow

3:50

view. Of who have contributed. Wide or

3:52

to our society and our world. Will.

3:55

You know, Boom. Interesting thing is that

3:57

even though we were different, Very different.

4:00

The country you know

4:02

aside from. Your routes

4:04

which I remember her being

4:06

discussed in class. There

4:09

really wasn't very much. And.

4:12

If we were thinking about. This

4:15

in kind of may be cohen. Every terms.

4:18

The. Main course: the entree was

4:20

going to be history. That

4:22

it wasn't referred to as

4:25

white history but de facto

4:27

was like history because of

4:29

the only people who were

4:31

actors and agents in world

4:33

affairs. Why people are? And

4:35

you know if we talked

4:37

about African Americans in the

4:39

canary metaphor would be guard

4:41

assistance of sprinkled in them.

4:43

You know occasionally what we

4:45

did not have. Was

4:48

any systematic understanding of the

4:50

ways in which of the

4:52

introduction of human beings who

4:54

were reduced to the status

4:56

of chattel slavery? And

4:58

the ensuing multi since we struggle

5:01

for equality the way that that.

5:04

Became. A fundamental engine in

5:07

American history of the Civil War

5:09

pops up out of nowhere, and

5:11

then in, oh, a century later,

5:13

we have people marching singing We

5:15

Shall Overcome. Ah,

5:17

and there was no connective tissue

5:19

that made any of that really

5:21

legible to us. Well

5:24

now. Is. In our time.

5:26

We. Have the falling happening. And

5:29

any number of states I

5:31

shutting down or reacting against.

5:34

Just. The kind of education that we all

5:36

would have been craving. Twenty. Years

5:38

Ago. Thirty Years Ago. Florida.

5:41

Requires schools to adopt certain

5:43

curriculum standards regarding the teaching

5:45

of specified events in American

5:48

history, particularly focusing on patriotism,

5:50

civic literacy, and the evils

5:52

of communism and totalitarianism. Mississippi,

5:54

Iowa, Idaho, Missouri, Montana, New

5:56

Hampshire, and on and on.

5:59

Has. Legislation.

6:01

That betrays and anxiety

6:04

about. A. Fury against.

6:07

The. Improvement of the kind of situation

6:09

you. Have. Described from twenty

6:11

thirty years ago or that

6:13

specifically what is happening in

6:16

the schools. Nicole specifically. That.

6:18

It that you are seeing. how how would

6:20

you describe the proper one that I just

6:22

think it's and. Rich

6:25

that the people who say

6:27

they they are opposing indoctrination

6:29

are in fact fangs that

6:31

curricula must be patriotic anti

6:33

communist arm and even some

6:35

of these sites that introduce

6:37

a. Curriculum from Prager You and

6:39

so what? Is Prager? You? Just

6:42

it. Just explain. It's that

6:44

out right wing online forum for university

6:46

in ah they a video where a

6:48

cartoon animated Frederick Douglass basically saying that

6:51

was hit reach in our we had

6:53

to have Slavery in the United States

6:55

and on it was a good thing

6:58

that was abolished but it was it

7:00

was necessary. But what that does

7:02

is it gives lies hidden to the

7:04

argument. That what they're trying to do

7:06

is keep students. And being indoctrinated that's what

7:09

they're trying to do is ensure

7:11

students are learning an accurate. History.

7:13

We know that. What we

7:15

Learned Social Studies has seldom ban

7:17

about putting forth been accurate rendering

7:19

of history but really are trying

7:22

to save our collective memory and

7:24

understanding of of American exceptionalism. So

7:26

what we're seeing is a

7:28

response to. The

7:30

Black Lives Matter Protests of Twenty Twenty.

7:33

This sense that racial justice was going

7:35

too far. that curriculums were changing in

7:37

a way that were d censoring. Does

7:39

white narrative arms and I think

7:42

part of it came from. This

7:45

understanding that in a. Quota. Pop

7:47

Culture War. Ah. When

7:50

you talk about. Sudan's. Then

7:53

you you began to.

7:56

Get people to focus on emotion and not.

7:58

Sacks. And reason. Then.

8:35

If idea that have a set and all

8:37

of these white children. Who are being taught

8:39

by the way by eighty percent white woman

8:41

teaching force are being indoctrinated into the believe

8:44

that white people were word. Guilty but

8:46

it's also push back against.

8:48

Kind. Of a larger phenomenon that was

8:50

happening, where are black people and people

8:53

of color were having a larger impact

8:55

in the electorate arms? All of these

8:57

things are kind of colliding. In

9:00

an effort then to make the culture.

9:02

War about what was happening in the

9:04

classroom and the sense that white people

9:06

were losing something. I'm and and

9:09

the last thing I did quickly say is

9:11

you know there's a reason that these bands

9:13

that the book fairs at these are

9:15

legislative than that is. Curriculum. Bands

9:17

target black history specifically. And

9:20

that's because Black history by

9:22

it's very existence, is political.

9:25

Because every narrative about

9:27

American exceptionalism. Is defined by

9:30

the very presence of black people here. We

9:32

didn't seem to immigrate. Here, We didn't come

9:34

here looking for a better life. We didn't

9:36

enjoy any of those freedoms arm. And

9:39

so does how our history truthfully

9:41

is to. As.

9:44

Some. Ah republican legislators sad

9:46

would be to make. People hate

9:48

America. That's what they said. If if they

9:50

learn is this accurate, history students may hate

9:52

their country and I don't. Agree with that,

9:54

but that's the fear is. It.

9:56

Makes me remember. The

9:59

Cool: Have you are. Remarkable.

10:02

Essay in the sixteen nineteen. Project.

10:04

When you're describing your father and

10:07

his intense. Patriotism. And

10:09

love for America. But how

10:11

complex? it? absolutely? Is and

10:13

that's that's in the funny. Thing.

10:16

About all of this is. That

10:19

Democracy As and the Sixteen Eighteen project. Is

10:21

the most patriotic thing I've ever written.

10:23

In fact when I look back at it

10:25

now like maybe it was to patriotic.

10:28

That people would read that and

10:30

think that this was somehow try

10:32

to be destructive to America I

10:34

think comes from a deep, deep

10:36

discomfort of the belief that white

10:39

Americans are exclusively the hero of

10:41

the American stories. And that they could

10:43

not see. That the

10:45

type of critical patriotism that block

10:47

Americans have always had. The father

10:49

couldn't see that as the their.

10:52

Story as well because when we tell

10:54

the story about historical figure that is

10:56

the story of America. but when we

10:58

tell the stories of block historical figures

11:00

that's only the story of black people

11:02

and of course that his mother venture.

11:06

To on it seems to me that

11:09

beer or some courses years in in

11:11

this movement. Tom Cotton from Arkansas Josh

11:13

Holy from Missouri. Ted Cruz

11:15

and Texas of course and run the

11:17

Santas from Florida. What is the ideology

11:20

behind with they're saying about the teaching

11:22

of history in schools? Where does it

11:24

come from what it is origin? Of

11:29

begin, the most modern incarnation of there's

11:31

a concern, especially in the aftermath of

11:34

Was Voice Death and Two Thousand Twenty.

11:37

That and of the schools had. Given

11:41

people this kind of critical

11:43

sensibility about the United States

11:45

other universities were too liberal,

11:47

or that the entire can

11:49

of ballast upon which the

11:51

current order arrests was being

11:53

undermined by these ideas. On.

11:56

A more. I. Think fundamental

11:58

level. However, The

12:00

The Debates About Power. The

12:02

first historians who looked at the

12:04

history of people of African descent

12:06

were doing so as a means

12:09

of undermining the rationales for Jim

12:11

Crow and slavery. The

12:13

argument the White supremacy argument was that

12:16

these people have no history and that

12:18

they've contributed nothing to the tide of

12:20

civilizations. So with you disprove that myth

12:22

than you undermine the basis that says

12:24

the to and not allowed to vote

12:26

other to have to attendees inferior segregated

12:29

institutions and so on. And so that

12:31

is what this this debate has been

12:33

about. The irony of

12:35

course here is that if you

12:37

think about the language but he

12:39

cited in L by legislation. Much

12:43

of it is ill leg was as

12:45

you would agree with pillow. You.

12:47

Can't teach anything that would inspire

12:49

a children to feel and same

12:52

ashamed or to seal of contempt

12:54

for their community of a group

12:56

that they belong to and so

12:58

on and in a colorblind sense

13:00

of them makes perfect sense. Was.

13:04

Activities though is that it's a

13:06

pernicious in version of the logic

13:08

of Brown versus Board of Education

13:11

When we think about that Nineteen

13:13

fifty Four decision which rested upon

13:16

the doll test that can at

13:18

the maybe Clark deployed as part

13:20

of the plate of case and

13:23

selling the deleterious effects of white

13:25

supremacy on the psyche of black

13:27

children. It

13:30

sounded. Like

13:32

children knew that they

13:34

were. Different: A

13:36

bad lower status A to out

13:38

of three of the children. As.

13:48

And they mail showed that the

13:50

way that education was bob was

13:52

carried out in this country. Was.

13:56

Doing the work of White supremacy

13:58

instilling a sense of inferiority, In

14:00

the minds of black children and

14:02

thereby violating the Equal Protection Clause

14:04

of the Fourteenth Amendment. That's.

14:06

A chain of logic. We're. Now seeing

14:08

people who were saying that we have to get

14:11

rid of black history. And

14:13

because merely telling this history has

14:15

it same effect on my children

14:17

sosa one to one in Ferguson.

14:20

Or the logic that led to the end segregation

14:22

in the first place. In

14:24

Ralph Ellison it's Invisible Man book that's

14:27

been quite often lately and in his

14:29

essay, says, well, He.

14:31

Has a crucial idea and the

14:33

idea is that. Is

14:35

a really false distinction drawn

14:37

to often between black history.

14:40

And. American History. Else. In

14:42

wants to tell us that those two

14:44

are inextricably bound up there the same

14:46

and the why? Is it important Or

14:49

is it important. To. Carry

14:51

on that distinction any longer. In.

14:53

You know, David. Whatever ironies here is

14:55

that in a visit, profound degree of

14:57

historical illiteracy in this country. We don't

14:59

know the history of the country very

15:02

well at all at all. As a

15:04

matter of fact, I and you can

15:06

go to the most diehard Democrat and

15:08

ask them about the origins of the

15:10

Democratic party and probably eighty five with

15:12

it, The time you'll get cricket, you

15:14

go to the most diehard republican and

15:16

ask where the Republican party comes from

15:18

and how we got to be what

15:20

it is now and you'll probably get

15:22

the same a number. Of Christmas

15:24

the iron easier though is

15:26

that to the extent that

15:29

we engage with American history

15:31

and any systematic way. We.

15:34

Do it in February. Vet

15:36

of were like alternative Lexus and Black

15:38

History Month when I go out and

15:41

give lectures without the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and

15:43

Fifteenth Amendment of as happening under the

15:45

rubric of Black history But that's also

15:48

constitutional history hits the the history of

15:50

that and democracy was a history of

15:52

reconstruction as a history of the United

15:54

States in the nineteenth century. They're all

15:57

of these forces and then dynamics that

15:59

are. Implicit with in

16:01

that moment And that's when we get

16:03

it. Black history is the point it

16:06

was actually engage with understanding what the

16:08

country of about at all. And

16:11

an apartment. I'm

16:19

talking with Jalonick Have and the coal

16:22

Hannah Jones about Black history and American

16:24

history and will continue our conversations in

16:26

a moment. This is the New Yorker

16:29

radio. Our. This

16:47

is the New Yorker Radio Our I'm David Remnick.

16:50

I'm speaking on the program today with

16:52

Nicole Hannah Jones. And Jalonick

16:54

up. Hannah Jones is the

16:56

New York Times Magazine Reporter. Who. Developed

16:59

the sixteen Nineteen project which looked

17:01

very closely at the role that

17:03

slavery played in our history. I'm.

17:05

Speaking to with Jelani Carb staff writer at

17:08

The New Yorker. We

17:10

gathered to talk about the attack

17:12

on black history across the country

17:14

from people who say it affects

17:16

that. We really ought to emphasize

17:18

only the positive. When. It

17:20

comes to on history. But.

17:22

The measures that they take go well

17:25

beyond the elementary schools, the Florida Department

17:27

of Education block, and a P course

17:29

on African American Studies. Calling

17:32

it inexplicably contrary to

17:34

Florida law. Decisions

17:36

about tenure are becoming openly political,

17:39

something that Hannah Jones experienced

17:41

yourself which will get to. In

17:44

many ways, conservative leaders are pushing

17:46

for a great deal more control

17:48

over intellectual freedom in higher education.

17:51

Will continue our conversation. And

17:56

as a history lover in a

17:58

way, historians. To travel. World's

18:00

talking about history. Other

18:03

countries, the citizenry to know their own

18:05

history and bear history in the larger

18:07

context of the glow of as soon

18:10

as we better than the United States

18:12

him. Part of that I think is

18:14

we're just the always a forward with

18:17

in culture on. We. Just we

18:19

don't. Value it in the same way,

18:21

and that's part of our ethos as

18:23

Americans, but it does mean then trying

18:25

to contextualize these moments that were in.

18:28

Ah, I'm very challenging because.

18:30

We. Don't have to talk about not

18:33

having a understanding of Black history. We

18:35

don't even have a shared understanding of

18:37

of American history And so I think

18:39

that that's very true. I think. I

18:43

think that that separation is necessary just

18:45

because and any generalize history if you

18:47

can only get a certain level of

18:50

that so you know. I believe in

18:52

women's studies. Black Studies, Asian

18:54

Studies. Just because it gives you

18:56

more debt, but I don't believe in

18:58

a complete segregation of those history in

19:00

a way that they are often. And.

19:03

On wore black people are included

19:05

in what we consider a generalized

19:07

histories. July

19:09

he caught it. You know, the parsley. right?

19:12

The guy is I caught the asteroids. To.

19:15

Explain something that is happening a month,

19:17

White Americans But the truth is as

19:20

easy if you think about. It when

19:22

we're teaching about the development of

19:24

the nation and we talk about

19:26

the Triangle trade. Pride.

19:28

This is a stuffy of of black

19:30

people even though we don't teach it

19:33

that way. We talk about the American

19:35

Revolution in and who has see that

19:37

power and the education to to write

19:39

the laws of this new conceit. You're

19:41

talking about black people because of all

19:43

people who have gotten their power farm

19:46

the institution of Slavery in Missouri Compromise,

19:48

Ride the cancer Nebraska at either. All

19:50

things are having to do with slavery.

19:52

But we're We're almost. Talking

19:55

about them as is, slavery is not

19:58

what is under. Guard a bit. Higher

20:00

history of our country until eighteen. Sixty Fives

20:02

and again we're only talking about these

20:04

Kind of seem to. See, that's why

20:06

people making laws are having conflicts.

20:09

And blankly would just existing in the background.

20:11

Somewhere because we have to talk about these

20:13

things So. Of. Course what I

20:16

argue. and Sixty Nineteen project is he

20:18

just he. You can understand your country,

20:21

Is. This histories are not intertwined

20:23

because they are before we even

20:25

become a country. By a hundred

20:27

and fifty years off people are

20:30

being influenced and influences. What will

20:32

become the United States? With the idea

20:34

that people were up in arms about something that

20:36

is not being taught. Oh it's the

20:38

kind of goes back in from the

20:40

history of American history is and how

20:43

we have ginned up at various times.

20:45

Bird? no. Alarm in fear

20:47

about verb in member of beings

20:49

communism months of catholicism about have

20:51

another point him in of a

20:53

while. The kind of thing for

20:55

me to go back in American

20:57

history with vigilant eat you were

21:00

a coauthor of an open letter

21:02

I think with eight hundred other.

21:05

Scholars administrators are in African American

21:07

Studies, what we are concerns and

21:10

what was the outcome of that

21:12

letter? So

21:14

that was around in a Florida's

21:16

the restrictions on the A P

21:19

African American Studies Course in A

21:21

which had essentially bigoted that curriculum

21:23

and interfered with the teaching of

21:26

a bill bill that will racial

21:28

history of this country and you

21:30

know they were all sorts of

21:32

abundant ironies of it you know

21:35

came out of this. If

21:38

I was a use one

21:41

example when nineteen fifty one.harry

21:43

T. and Harriette More were

21:45

a black couple who were

21:47

a organizers. Very

21:50

more fought for equal pay for

21:52

black teachers, got over one hundred

21:54

thousand black Americans to register to

21:56

vote and as a consequence of

21:59

actions of trying to register black

22:01

voters, the home was firebombed on

22:03

Christmas making fifty one area more

22:05

were assassinated embark county. They

22:08

were both killed. F B. I investigations

22:10

pointed to the Kkk for the murders,

22:12

but no one was ever charged. In

22:16

the nineteen nineties. But. In

22:19

response to this, the state of

22:21

Florida recognizing it's own culpability, having

22:23

fired or both Harry and Henriette

22:25

more from his arms his teachers

22:28

you know, because they were organizing

22:30

black voters for as a bit

22:32

of penance. The State

22:34

of Florida added their home to the

22:37

historic registry. The. End

22:39

result Now of legislation that we

22:41

seem past and the floater legislature

22:43

is at the Moors. Home can

22:45

exist on the historic registry, but

22:48

Florida schools can't tell the children

22:50

why that home is on the

22:52

historic registry. Or at least the

22:54

legislation makes it really unclear what

22:56

a Florida teacher could say about

22:59

the Moors and their murders. That

23:01

is with the state of affairs

23:03

that we were protesting in saying

23:05

that this kind of i'm incursion

23:07

into. The curriculum oh

23:09

was one of unduly politicizing this

23:12

work in second with only facilitating

23:14

a kind of repetitions of the

23:16

worst that we seen in our

23:18

past. That was what we were

23:20

thinking about when being created. That

23:22

letter of the result of it

23:24

has not received them the much

23:26

by way of a different As

23:28

and his. His

23:31

Board of Education. Nicole.

23:33

What role does media narratives play

23:35

in perpetuating or countering attacks on

23:38

black history? For instance, the battle

23:40

over critical race theory. Some news

23:42

organizations repeat claims that see I

23:45

T Critic race theory is being

23:47

taught to. Primary. Middle

23:49

schoolers which seems to be. A

23:52

teacher seems to be flat out false.

23:54

What is the media doing well and

23:56

what can it be doing a lot

23:58

better? Source Sell I. Then they

24:00

could a call at at the

24:02

way that media has how. Legitimize.

24:06

Wide are essentially the propaganda

24:08

campaign indicates. A call that when

24:10

it is said we we know the

24:13

actors ah the acted against the seen

24:15

lately that camouflage with a doing in

24:17

fact one of the biggest after. The

24:19

courses through fall regularly goes on

24:21

Twitter and says this is what

24:23

we're going to do. He said

24:26

he was going to make turn

24:28

critical race theory into a term

24:30

that made ah, white Americans think

24:32

about ah, indoctrination of their white

24:34

children are being treated as the

24:36

oppressor. I mean he, He lays

24:38

it out and then he lays

24:40

out his strategy. which is we

24:42

keep pushing this until we get

24:44

some mainstream media to pick it

24:46

up and then the rest of

24:48

mainstream media feals. Don't have to now

24:50

pick it up or would look like

24:52

they're being buyers. Fell these folks studied.

24:54

ah I think really the flaws in

24:57

media. And. Have exploited it. So

24:59

what happens is. This

25:02

desire to be balanced good as

25:04

he means the obfuscate the truth.

25:07

The first thing we should is under services said okay.

25:09

So me in a classroom where this is happening. Provide.

25:12

Evidence that this is happening. Let's define

25:14

what critical race theory is and what

25:16

it is And and and said we.

25:19

We allowed passive actors to release

25:21

define the terms in a way

25:23

that I think his band's very

25:25

harmful because that's how propaganda works.

25:28

Attempted bands were against sixteen eighteen

25:30

specifically. Then they came back with

25:32

critical Race Theory. Now force. they're

25:34

coming back with the Ice and

25:36

we just keep making ten of

25:38

those same mistakes again and again.

25:41

I also just want to

25:43

add that's. When

25:46

we. See. About something like

25:48

Critical Race Theory When we think about

25:50

what should and shouldn't be taught in

25:52

the classrooms, part of what we did

25:54

as a Sell your Media is to

25:57

ask what what is the role of

25:59

an eight. He said and.

26:02

Is. Around a teacher Barry. Is.

26:05

Around it he seems that. Every

26:08

parent would agree with. I mean that that

26:10

is actually the role of an education. Nicole,

26:13

Are there any good examples of solid

26:15

reporting on this? Who's doing it really

26:17

well? Some. Of the most important

26:19

reporting that came out of this it

26:21

was a desert of his name nicole

26:24

car at Propublica Us and use reporting

26:26

on Amount for Liberty which of course

26:28

mainstream media cheated Mom's for Liberty as.

26:30

A legitimate grassroots parental rights group. But

26:32

if you said he can see no

26:34

parental rights as. Than

26:36

one of those race neutral terms that

26:38

is and used historically for race. Movements

26:41

and she actually so that this was

26:43

a white nationalist movements, but this was

26:45

something that most earnest didn't want to

26:48

call off the fact that. Nearly

26:50

everybody a monster. Liberty. Was. White that

26:52

they were pushing a narrative of

26:54

America that are could certainly be

26:57

seen as nationalists. That's the books

26:59

they. Were targeting were specifically

27:01

black box and books of

27:03

other Marseilles group So we

27:05

we have been eight or

27:07

than a betters of what's

27:09

happened. Johnny. In countries

27:12

such as China, Poland, for

27:14

example, there are laws that

27:16

state. Which topics can be

27:18

taught and not taught? Is.

27:21

What's. Happening in the United States around

27:23

the teaching of black history. Uniquely

27:25

different. From. Other countries Are we

27:27

a nation that takes extra steps to control

27:30

the narrative? Some. So

27:33

as into a couple things here. One

27:36

is that. We. On.

27:39

The global stage. Have. Enjoyed

27:41

the reputation for freedom of inquiry

27:43

in the United States and at

27:46

the same time though in a

27:48

movie Rusty Done is kind of

27:50

create an. Environment. In

27:52

which will soon be Starbucks can be.

27:55

Available have a conversation and

27:58

exploration these topics. And

28:01

feel not coincidentally as

28:03

we've seen. A

28:06

corresponding your to this movements

28:08

have been also a push

28:10

back against tenure. And

28:13

In of Id have tenure ring

28:15

professors at In of institutions. The

28:18

if we think back we know

28:20

that one of the the ballasts

28:22

upon which tenure rests. The modern

28:24

system of tenure rests and American

28:27

universities is the Mccarthy Era. In.

28:29

Which people were being pushed

28:31

out of their positions? Are

28:34

people being hounded out of

28:36

professional life? That

28:38

people are deployed all manner

28:40

of of kind of a

28:43

dog whistles and. In

28:45

a innuendo against people to

28:48

destroy their ability to earn

28:50

a living or to pursue

28:52

their careers as intellectuals and

28:54

academics. What we're seeing now

28:56

with a push against tenure.

29:00

As part of this campaign,

29:02

the evidence to create a

29:04

landscape. That. Will allow.

29:08

State. Power. To determine

29:10

where people can and cannot say

29:12

or even avenues and which people

29:14

can or cannot in choir or

29:16

intellectual questions was a suitable for

29:19

examination and those which are not

29:21

until none of that is compatible

29:23

with the vision of Freedom and

29:25

the way in which the United

29:27

States articulate it's vision of itself

29:29

nationally or internationally that thank God

29:32

for that matter I just wanted

29:34

to add something to that sell

29:36

at at all of us as

29:38

writers as journalists. And in

29:40

the conversation here understand how

29:43

important narrative is. Fights narrative

29:45

is why I determines what

29:48

policies. Get supported and narratives determines

29:50

how we think about policies and

29:52

so we have to understand the

29:54

context of this is not so

29:56

fast and what can a college

29:59

student which. The Me as it is

30:01

absolutely insane that we will be legislating. What

30:03

grown adults who have decided to go

30:06

to college ah need to be protected

30:08

from in the classroom I think that's

30:10

to speak to. Insane. This has

30:12

gotten his arm, but we have

30:14

to understand that what they're really

30:16

trying to do is ah, determine.

30:19

Soft. How can we.

30:21

Imagine our World War Two. We understand about a

30:24

row I think we need. Understands: you don't

30:26

ban books, you don't their curriculum you

30:28

don't Then the teaching of ideas. just

30:30

do it. You do is to really

30:32

control. Of what we are able

30:34

to understand and think about in imagine

30:36

for a society. You. Are

30:39

both as universities Two mommies. Herb

30:41

Dean of the Journalism School at

30:43

at Columbia and Nicole your the

30:45

night share of race and journalism.

30:48

At Howard University I wonder?

30:50

is? How this issue

30:52

is playing out? That Colombian howard. So.

30:55

Good, You know a bigger

30:58

a few different kinds of

31:00

context here for this bob.

31:02

Public universities have generally been

31:04

more susceptible to this person,

31:07

and private institutions have been.

31:10

At Columbia we've been a

31:12

whole array of people who

31:14

are very concerned about this,

31:16

but we've been relatively insulated.

31:19

I will say one thing

31:21

however, Oh, which is that

31:23

I have seen personally with

31:25

academic stuff whom I have

31:27

spoken to. People

31:30

not apply for jobs. At

31:33

certain universities I think it will

31:35

see and kind of brain drain

31:37

or a or even know what

31:39

the term be because not the

31:41

people are necessarily leaving people are

31:43

refusing to even apply in some

31:45

instances openings that these universities and

31:47

of a bit over time that

31:49

will become another dynamic yeah. Yeah,

31:51

I know that I'd actually am.

31:55

I think I'm the sea glass on Howard. I'm

31:57

worn how I gotta how are switches. Exactly.

32:00

Had a big rise seen that we're

32:02

talking about. I went. Through the

32:04

tenure process at. My alma mater:

32:06

The University of North Carolina at Chapel

32:08

Hill and. Had

32:11

my tenure blocked by

32:14

political appointees. To the board

32:16

of trustees, not academics. I was

32:18

approved for tenure by the university

32:20

because of what a wealthy donor

32:22

consider to be my political views

32:24

and a dislike of the journalism

32:26

that I did so. We're. Looking

32:28

at places where the University system used

32:30

to be you know this was upside

32:33

of the states that the crown jewel

32:35

universe. in our time it was a

32:37

crown jewel of the university system in

32:39

North Carolina. Us. We see tenure taken

32:41

away at Georgia, Us and even my

32:43

home state of Iowa and which was no

32:45

national eat ah as the crown jewel

32:47

of education They right we all grew up

32:49

taking the i would test the basic skills

32:52

and the university system there with the

32:54

pride of the states but is is this

32:56

stance of of wanting to a tad even

32:58

their own institutions. Will It leads me to

33:00

this Question Them for both of you. Is

33:03

Christopher Roof though is

33:05

Rhonda Santas and. Ted.

33:07

Cruz said all. Are. They

33:10

winning. Overall. In this.

33:12

Battle. Of the you for

33:14

asking if Joe Mccarthy was winning. Who's.

33:17

Winning for a while exactly

33:19

the I think the C

33:21

C was able to do

33:23

something that benefited himself politically

33:25

and benefited a particular kind

33:28

of reacts married inclination or

33:30

that he had tapped into,

33:32

But the net effect of

33:34

it. For. The the rest

33:36

of the nation and for the

33:38

wellbeing of the democracy was overwhelmingly

33:41

negative and so I think these

33:43

kinds of scare tactics have been

33:45

are politically profitable you know we

33:47

seem of playbook and many other

33:49

instances are you know and be

33:51

benefit only the people who have

33:54

the microphone. The People

33:56

Who were at the University of the

33:58

People Who Are Learning. These

34:00

institutions, the ecosystem that the

34:02

university builds up around it,

34:04

the the national prestige and

34:06

international prestige of these institutions.

34:08

All of that suffers as

34:10

a result of us that

34:12

is critical questions for us

34:14

to ask. It's for ultimately

34:16

will, when and when. We.

34:20

Just because of where we are in

34:22

this country we'll with always in a

34:24

polarized. Century. But we have similarly

34:27

polarized that we're going to have

34:29

ah set a difference between state

34:31

in terms of what rights you

34:34

have. Ah, what what rights are

34:36

protected for. Youth: What are you able

34:38

to learn? What are you a was

34:40

it's think about and because some of

34:43

us may feel that they were in

34:45

a safe states. But

34:47

there can be no say

34:49

state. As long as we

34:51

see these anti democratic authoritarian

34:53

practices spreading another state, eventually

34:55

it's going to concise to.

35:00

Recall how to jones chew on the

35:02

cob. Thank you so much saying that

35:04

is. Nicole

35:09

Had a Jones is a corresponding for

35:11

the New York Times Magazine, and she

35:14

holds the Night Chair in Race and

35:16

Journalism and Howard University Jalonick Carb Rest

35:18

of The New Yorker, and he's the

35:20

dean of the Journalism School at Columbia

35:23

University.