0:00

Welcome to the Peronecast .

0:04

Tina , it's so great to see you . Welcome , tina

0:07

from Oolali . She newly

0:09

awarded three-star New York Times restaurant here

0:11

in Tribeca , with Chef Chip Smith to

0:13

talk about her journey to hospitality

0:16

, her views on hospitality , rockette

0:19

to restaurant and how to pair wines fearlessly

0:21

. I can't get you a reservation

0:23

. You gotta call like everybody else . Stay

0:26

tuned , that's so

0:28

good . You have a good

0:30

voice , though . I like your voice a lot .

0:32

Thank you , thank goodness

0:34

, because people have to listen to a lot of it on that

0:36

voice mail .

0:39

Okay , so we should jump in Back in . I

0:41

believe it was 2014, . It

0:44

was raining . I

0:46

found myself walking down

0:48

a quiet street

0:50

on the Upper East Side and I walked

0:52

down the stairs and I immediately

0:55

I was having a terrible day . By the way I

0:57

immediately smelled beautiful

1:00

fresh bread .

1:01

Mr Smith .

1:03

And I immediately saw this

1:05

dining room that

1:07

was unlike 99.9%

1:11

of the dining rooms in New York at the time . And

1:14

then I met you and

1:17

immediately connected with you and

1:20

I came to just

1:22

really love this amount very quickly

1:24

. I fell in love and

1:27

it felt like a throwback

1:29

in the most beautiful way , in a

1:31

way that's so current in Europe , which is

1:33

you go to the country and folks

1:35

are making something wonderful .

1:38

It doesn't seem to go out of style there . It's

1:40

funny to see in retro now , like

1:42

my jean jacket I wear now and kids go . That's so

1:44

cool , is that vintage ? And I'm like , am

1:47

I vintage ? Sure

1:49

, yeah , it's vintage , thank you . But

1:51

we only copied

1:53

what we experienced there when we would

1:55

travel , which was not that often

1:57

. You know , we would go every other year . We

2:00

had a restaurant in the Outer Banks . So

2:02

, needless to say , january , half

2:04

of February , no one's there . Everyone

2:06

takes off . My staff informed

2:08

me when I first opened that they would be taking

2:10

off and I was like what do you mean ? She goes

2:13

? Oh , there's nobody here . And I was like , oh , come on , shut

2:15

up . You know there's no one in the Outer Banks . So , chippen

2:17

, I would save up . I used to do

2:20

faux finishing and mural work and I would paint all

2:22

those fancy houses and I would save

2:24

all that money and we would go to the

2:26

countryside of France for five weeks every

2:29

three days , pick up and drive somewhere without an agenda

2:32

.

2:33

Incredible , and so that's what informed

2:35

the spirit of that restaurant .

2:38

That , combined with Lutas Chanterelle

2:40

, you know the people that you admired

2:43

here in New York , that we always admired .

2:46

Yeah , some of the classic classic restaurants

2:48

that .

2:49

And the original Daniel , the little Daniel

2:51

, his first one before he

2:53

became the king .

2:55

Yeah , of course there's this thing

2:58

that happened with chefs where all

3:00

of a sudden being a chef became you

3:03

know , you could be a celebrity and it has

3:05

a very , very positive

3:07

effect because people

3:09

are actually interested in chefs . I went

3:11

to Lugger on Wee years ago and

3:13

I asked the server who . I

3:15

worked with the server in Carmine's

3:18

way back in the day and

3:20

I said who's the chef he goes . No one asked

3:22

that . It

3:25

just wasn't a thing .

3:26

Right .

3:26

And now it's a thing Now it's a .

3:28

Thing .

3:29

When you started the Simone , which

3:31

is now gosh , 10 years ago

3:33

11 . 11

3:35

. Did

3:37

you have any intuition that

3:39

it would turn into a three star

3:41

?

3:42

Oh gosh , never Like when we first

3:44

heard that we were being reviewed , we thought

3:47

we just prayed we wouldn't get zero . Chip

3:51

and I were like , oh no , he's

3:53

going to give us zero because he doesn't like

3:55

. He doesn't know that we used to live

3:57

here , he doesn't know that I'm from here basically

3:59

since I was 17 . He doesn't

4:02

like people coming in from out of town thinking

4:04

they can open a New York restaurant , and even

4:07

with Chip's lineage , even with the places that

4:09

Chip worked with . So we

4:11

thought that it

4:13

was a goner . And it was May , end of May

4:15

. We were already worried about the summertime

4:18

on the Upper East Side , of course , because everybody

4:20

goes to their extracurricular housing , and

4:23

so I was like , oh , what are we going to do

4:25

? This is going to be terrible . So in that

4:27

hit it , you

4:29

know , much like right now . To be honest

4:31

, for January , saved our bacon

4:34

, propelled us you know , forward

4:36

much quicker than we would have propelled

4:38

ourselves without some time .

4:41

Yeah , and it got three stars

4:43

and I used to always run around the

4:45

city telling people it's the most unknown

4:47

three-star restaurant in New York . It's

4:50

very , perfectly secret and

4:52

they couldn't get in .

4:54

Perfectly secret and you're what

4:56

and you're who . It is an

4:59

interesting thing because it didn't change

5:01

our focus at all . We did make some mistakes

5:03

, I feel , which we're not doing here on

5:05

purpose . We tried to do too many , we

5:07

tried to do too much , we tried to add

5:10

more seats and tables , so we didn't

5:12

hold on to the element

5:14

of what we do and we and this

5:16

stage , you know , I recognize that , and so now here

5:18

, I won't do it here . I

5:20

am holding it to 36 seats . I'm holding

5:23

it to a certain amount of night . The kitchen is

5:25

able to do what the kitchen does .

5:29

We can cut all this out . If you need to take

5:31

it , take it . Reservation requests .

5:33

I don't have . We're gonna

5:35

just turn that off Of all

5:37

the people to have her phone ring during a private

5:39

conversation . Team on cell

5:42

phone people .

5:43

So hospitality has

5:45

become such a buzzword .

5:47

Well , as you and I talk about this for many

5:49

years now . It needs to be , because

5:51

hospitality in and of itself Can

5:54

be considered a branding mechanism

5:56

for some , depending on the approach . But

5:59

hospitality as a concept , as a

6:01

truth in what has

6:04

actually , unfortunately , become Not

6:06

nearly as expected anymore in New York . They

6:08

like all the sexy hot spots that

6:10

just to go there and be a part of it is fantastic

6:13

, and COVID put a big hurt on

6:15

hospitality when people came

6:17

back to work and people came

6:19

back to dine . We didn't have that

6:21

experience really , which I'm I'm grateful for

6:23

. But I heard from other people that Customers

6:25

were , you know , so anxious to be back in

6:28

that they sometimes weren't nice and sometimes

6:30

really Clamoring to have everything

6:32

and they could get in them because they missed it so much and

6:35

servers in front of the house had

6:38

had two years off of Understanding

6:40

that maybe the direction of their lives could , could

6:43

go elsewhere and they could do something else in

6:45

their career that was not quite as stressful as

6:47

handling people right , so

6:50

it got a little formulaatic , just

6:52

due to the fact that their

6:54

a was very short staff so people

6:57

had to really pitch in and do everything . It's

6:59

still short staffed in the United States and Talking

7:02

to people in France for them to there

7:04

, everyone's still having trouble hiring to have the

7:06

right amount . Then there's the cost of

7:09

living factor . There's the people who you want to

7:11

make sure they have a quality of life . You don't want to work

7:13

them too much . You want to make sure they can live

7:15

their lives and feel comfortable and pay bills

7:17

and take care of their families and have two

7:19

days off , which is why we're closed two days

7:22

. Now . Chip is over there working and I

7:24

worked and came here and we'll go back to work . But

7:26

for us it's not a job , it's a lifestyle . We

7:29

don't feel any pressure about it . The people

7:31

that work for us in the kitchen are always like I don't know how

7:33

you guys do it and I'm like what

7:35

do you mean ? And they go . Well , you know you're older

7:38

than us and you're never tired

7:40

and I was like , oh , you should . Sunday

7:42

is like I

7:44

, if I'm out of my Jimmy jams

7:46

that you know , before three o'clock , that's a big

7:48

feat . It's like goes from coffee

7:50

to popcorn , to rosé

7:53

, to wine , to dinner . That's

7:55

the formula of Sundays .

7:57

That sounds lovely , it is lovely , you know

7:59

, you know .

8:00

But we are fortunate , you know , we consider ourselves

8:02

very lucky to have the opportunity to be

8:04

back , open even , and to have

8:06

people be so receptive To

8:09

the way we do service , because we didn't change

8:11

. It's the same way We've done it since

8:13

the Outer Banks first restaurant in Kitty Hawk . We

8:16

closed that .

8:17

What was that restaurant called ?

8:18

Carolina blue . How disgusting

8:20

, romantically , the color of the chef's eyes

8:22

, mm-hmm . And then the other one

8:25

was bonsoiré for have a good evening

8:27

. Because I , when we first went to France

8:29

, and they would say bonjournée and I didn't know any

8:31

French , really very much when we first

8:33

went and I would say , oh , we're not leaving yet , we just got

8:35

here and they're like it means have

8:38

a good day , and I went , oh

8:40

, so bonsoiré means

8:42

have a good night . Okay , and

8:44

I just thought that was some cool that I named the restaurant

8:47

have a good evening , whether you're coming or going . And

8:49

then we have the Simone and and

8:51

now we have Oolah Lee you've opened

8:53

Oolah Lee .

8:54

in January 16th of this

8:56

year you got another three-star review . You've

8:58

had two New York Times

9:00

three-star reviews , which

9:02

it's an incredible article

9:05

. I hope everyone reads it and

9:07

the reviews just fantastic . But

9:09

I always think of you when I think of Just

9:12

speaking to hospitality for a second , the

9:14

difference between concept and practice

9:16

and what it

9:19

feels like when I'm in

9:21

a restaurant that you

9:23

, your team chip in the kitchen and his

9:25

team put together . It's

9:28

more like a hug . I want

9:30

it's not too much , you

9:32

know , it's just that that beautiful , welcoming

9:36

, tasty evening and

9:38

there's not , there's no magic tricks , there's no

9:40

like wackiness , but but there's

9:42

something so Pure

9:44

about it .

9:45

I think that someone asked me this the

9:48

other night , a young man whose first time in . He

9:50

said what is it ? You said it's a lifestyle

9:53

, but what is it that you enjoy why ? Why

9:55

do you enjoy doing it ? And I said

9:57

, well , I enjoy doing

9:59

it because if I didn't

10:01

enjoy it I shouldn't do it , because

10:03

it would be a reflection on your experience for the evening

10:06

and I enjoy you enjoying

10:08

. That's the whole , that's the

10:10

whole thing for us , and I enjoy

10:12

chip being able to cook his food and

10:14

not have any other stress as except to cook and

10:16

Bring that out and make sure that

10:18

you're happy with it . It's a whole circle

10:21

. Our fulfillment

10:23

and joy becomes your enjoyment . That's that's

10:25

the reason . It's a . It's easy to do

10:28

and it's never meant to be a second one

10:30

or a third one or to have five restaurants . It's

10:32

always meant to just be the one , organically

10:34

so , and and it's hard for other

10:36

people to do it if they're , if they're not , a couple that

10:39

are working together and living together

10:41

, and we are fortunate

10:43

that we have done that all

10:45

these years and somehow it just always works . Everyone's

10:48

always fascinated that we live together

10:50

and we work together , and I always say it's

10:52

because each one of us has respect For what

10:54

the other one does and we also have

10:56

full confidence that it's going

10:58

to be done . We never have to question each

11:00

other . I know that the kitchen

11:03

is going to be fine and if I say that

11:05

, it's not he that another one takes it personally

11:07

. It's let's go , and

11:09

it's the same for the front of the house . If something happens

11:11

and Chip says hey , I say

11:13

let's go where we gotta . We

11:15

have to get in front of it , not behind it , and

11:17

no one takes offense . Everyone just

11:19

Understands it's all together

11:21

and that's because we're in it with them , as

11:24

opposed to just pointing and saying do this , do

11:26

that right ?

11:27

Yeah , I think that's so resonant right

11:29

now . It's very atypical In

11:32

terms of the models that we see or

11:34

the what we believe are the

11:36

most important restaurants . Oftentimes

11:39

they don't align with that today

11:41

and it's .

11:42

It's something that shifted and their goals

11:45

are much bigger and much grander . And those people

11:47

have so many layers of goals

11:49

for their people and I look at some of

11:51

their Positions and their jobs

11:53

and what they handle and I think , good lord , I could never

11:55

Wrap myself around what

11:57

, what you're doing , that just wouldn't

11:59

be my wheelhouse . My wheelhouse

12:02

is get up , make coffee , return calls

12:04

, pay bills , get on the subway

12:06

, come to work . It used to be just go downstairs , but

12:08

now we have to get on the subway . And then

12:10

I get in check more phone calls , check in with the

12:13

kitchen . My staff arrives , people walk

12:15

in to say hello and try to make a reservation and meet

12:17

me , and that's always welcome

12:19

. We love that . We love people just wandering

12:21

in . Then there's wine to be tasted and and the

12:25

pairing to think about with chips , food and

12:27

menu changes and it's just a constant . It's

12:29

our own formula that works . That works . But

12:32

when I think about those big , sexy jobs that

12:34

I know that some people do , I think about

12:36

all that they have to juggle and

12:38

I'm like , wow , that's

12:40

a lot . Mine's all compact and just

12:42

my little house . It's um , it's

12:44

both hard and easy . It's , uh , easier

12:47

for us because it's what we do For them

12:49

. It would be something that would be harder

12:51

, perhaps Because they also

12:53

have their own goals in mind about what they're

12:55

striving for . It's become

12:57

crazy , the faceted Business

13:01

of what is hospitality and food . Now

13:03

it's no longer just owning

13:05

a restaurant , so it's kind

13:07

of fun that it's working and that people like

13:09

it .

13:10

This is a perfect time to read A

13:12

little excerpt from the New York Times review

13:15

which I think is important for

13:18

everyone to hear . I'll take a shot at

13:20

it .

13:21

I haven't even read the full article yet

13:23

. Chips , so sad with me . I like really

13:25

. Oh no , I was so stressed out

13:27

about it coming .

13:28

Yeah , you texted me .

13:29

I had such a headache , I was so worried . I was

13:31

very worried and then I saw just

13:33

a glimpse of it and I started to cry and

13:35

then I never picked the paper up to finish reading . Everybody's

13:38

like you haven't read the paper yet and I was like , sitting

13:40

it's in my bed desk , I'm gonna read it . I promise

13:42

I'm gonna read it all the way through . So talk

13:45

to me , ryan , read me . I read me an excerpt

13:47

.

13:47

This is for Oolali , reviewed

13:50

by Pete Wells three stars . It's

13:53

hard to remember now , but not long

13:55

ago smart restaurants saw the reservation phone

13:57

calls a chance to make you feel welcome , even

14:00

if your meal was still a month away . Conversation

14:03

was the start of something . If you were lucky

14:05

, something nice . Today

14:07

it's almost never that Reservations or

14:09

commodities they're bought , traded , set

14:11

aside for American Express card holders and

14:13

Scalped by whoever can build the

14:15

fastest bot . At best , securing

14:18

a prime table can make you feel like you've won some low

14:20

stakes game in the world's most

14:22

boring casino . Oolali

14:25

is not part of this casino

14:27

. It seems likely clueless

14:29

about tiktok trends , plating trends

14:32

, wine trends and just about any

14:34

other trend you can think of . It

14:36

will probably strike some people as hopelessly

14:39

dated , but I suspect that for many more

14:41

it will be a welcome break

14:43

from the impersonal transactional

14:46

feeling so many New York restaurants

14:48

leave you with these days . How

14:50

about that ?

14:51

How about that ? And you know it is

14:53

true , someone asked me before this review

14:55

. That was a new guest . They said are

14:57

you ever going to do open table or a Rezi

14:59

? I said I'm not . And

15:02

he said how come ? And I said , well , without

15:05

even that article in front , I said I see the

15:07

phone call as me getting to know you . When

15:10

I returned your call , it is

15:12

me already knowing who you are hearing

15:14

, what your voice sounds like , putting a relationship

15:16

together so that when you walk in I'm already know

15:19

you by voice

15:21

and I'm ready to see you in person

15:23

. And I already felt like you and I have a conversation

15:26

going .

15:27

There is something so wonderful about the voice

15:29

connecting . Just hearing someone's

15:31

voice , mm-hmm , it makes a big difference and

15:34

I confess I used to just

15:36

look forward to the moment I would call

15:38

and I would get

15:40

your voicemail , because it's Exceedingly

15:43

long and it's your voice and

15:45

it's you having fun . There's a little

15:48

tongue-in-cheek always , oh yeah , and

15:50

it just feels

15:52

so right and Feels

15:55

like you , like you and ship , like what you do

15:57

in a voice message .

15:58

Yeah , and that's what it's supposed to purvey

16:00

that way . If you don't , if you're not into it , it's

16:02

not your place to come Then

16:05

it allows you to not make a reservation as well

16:07

. Chip cooks . He does

16:09

not try to be cutting edge , he just wants to make

16:11

food that's delicious and that you take a bite . I'm

16:13

go oh my god , that is delicious

16:15

. It doesn't have to change the world , we just want

16:18

you to change your day . Maybe have

16:20

you had a bad day . It makes your day better . And

16:22

then the wine pairing has always been organic

16:25

. It's all about the entire dish , not just

16:27

the protein or it

16:29

has to capture , encapsulate

16:31

the entire bite of the food , and

16:33

so that's fun putting that together for people

16:35

and having fun with people and how

16:37

we do it . And no

16:39

, we are not the place for everybody , and

16:41

that took me a long time to not be upset about

16:43

. Like really . Oh , yeah , yeah , I would have

16:45

people come and I could . I could tell they didn't have a

16:47

good time and it would . I would like beat

16:50

myself up overnight . I would try to think

16:52

what happened . I would back in the

16:54

day I used to call people . I used to say

16:56

, if would you like to share ? And

16:58

you know people would say things like no , we just didn't think

17:01

you were all that and I would be like , well , okay

17:03

. Now I've learned that , like

17:05

music and art and anything

17:07

else , that's a creative project . You cannot

17:10

make everyone happy . You can want

17:12

to and try to , but it could

17:14

just not be their jam and you can't be offended by it

17:16

.

17:17

You just have to keep going South

17:19

, godin Says in

17:21

answer to that sort of feedback Maybe

17:24

it's not for you . And isn't that so

17:26

simple and beautiful ? It's just like I

17:29

want to take a break and then come back and talk About

17:31

gastronomy . Okay , and wine

17:33

pairing yummy . You're

17:37

listening to the Peron cast . I'm here with Tina

17:39

Vaughan from Oolalli and

17:45

we're back . What

17:48

is the first time you can

17:50

remember being moved by a dish ?

17:53

Well , when I got into the

17:55

restaurant industry was a fluke . It wasn't because I was interested

17:57

in food , I

18:00

was the other way . I never ate . You

18:02

know , I tried to maintain a mean weight of 128

18:04

pounds Because

18:06

I was dancing and acting and a different

18:09

life . As things happen , I

18:11

had met Larry Foggia many moons ago when I first moved

18:13

to New York . I came up early because I was hired out of high

18:16

school by the Rockettes , so of course I wanted to get up to New York

18:18

. I was 17 years old . I lied about my age

18:20

. I

18:23

got a job at the River Cafe on the patio because they didn't at that

18:25

time put women in the dining room .

18:27

Larry Foggia was the chef there when I was working there incredible

18:30

. This

18:32

is the father of Mark Forgeone and one of

18:34

the father of regional American cuisine basically .

18:37

So Years

18:40

go by , I go to LA , the Rockettes went to LA . I

18:43

went to LA , I was in Life Magazine . I

18:46

didn't realize I was featured in an article

18:49

and Larry Forgeone was featured in the same

18:51

issue of a bunch of chefs . Years

18:54

go by . I'm walking down Lexington Avenue . This

18:57

guy turns around and said , didn't you work at River

18:59

Cafe years ago ? And I turned around and

19:01

I was like , yeah , like four

19:03

years ago he goes . Oh yeah , you were in Life Magazine and

19:05

I was in Life Magazine . I

19:08

could not remember who he was , of course

19:10

, because I'm like not into food and

19:13

he goes you want to make a ? I

19:15

have to go to England . I'm taking a big staff with me . I

19:17

have to go do a guest chef . You want to work at the restaurant

19:20

for two weeks and hang out and be a hostess ? And

19:22

I was like , sure , cash , he goes

19:24

. Yeah .

19:25

This is like not recognizing today

19:27

Bobby Flay or someone walking by .

19:30

And then he says and I'll feed you

19:32

. I said , well , I don't need , but thank you , I'll just

19:34

take the cash and can I go to auditions ? And we had this

19:37

whole thing and he said , sure , so I go

19:39

. And I worked for two weeks , did

19:41

my thing , left . Bonnie

19:43

was the manager there . Bonnie's

19:45

dream was to be out in the Hamptons and

19:47

work for Nick and Tony's . She'd

19:49

been with Larry a while and she gave

19:52

her notice . She got the job , she moved out to the , she's moving and

19:54

Larry goes . What am I going to do ? You

19:56

have that something on the dining room floor that

19:58

all the guests love , because she was also

20:01

back in the day . She was older than me at the time

20:03

but she was a dancer and she

20:05

loved guests and they loved her . And she

20:08

goes . Well , find that girl that was here because

20:10

the guests ask about her . Still , he goes , she's not

20:12

in the restaurant business . She

20:14

goes I don't know call and ask if she wants

20:16

a job . So I was in between gigs

20:18

and I had done a couple

20:20

of commercials . But you don't really make any money until they start

20:22

running . I go in . I had the interview

20:24

, I do my thing about auditions

20:26

and I'm an artist , so

20:31

I go in and I'm training and Chip

20:33

had finished his externship

20:35

. And this is a story he tells and I'm still not

20:37

certain it's not a made up story . But he comes in

20:40

with his brother for dinner because when you finish

20:42

with your externship

20:44

, larry buys you dinner . He's

20:46

at CIA , up at the culinary . So Bonnie

20:48

said , oh , go to that table and open wine for that

20:50

table , because you don't know a lot about wine yet

20:52

. And he says open up the wine and it

20:54

won't matter , he's with his brother and

20:56

he's a student .

20:57

He's a chef .

20:59

He's a chef and he was so young he looked like a child

21:01

, chip was so young . So I go

21:03

over and I open the thing and I walk

21:05

away and apparently his brother says

21:07

that Chip says if I can get her on a date , she's mine

21:09

forever .

21:10

Wonderful .

21:11

And that's the true story . And then

21:13

I realized how talented Chip was . And there came

21:15

a time about six months went by , eight months

21:17

, and I went for

21:19

a call back for some director who wanted

21:21

to see me and I said I'm sorry , I'm out of wine

21:23

tasting and my agent went I'm

21:25

sorry , who's this on the telephone

21:27

? Oh , I'm sorry , I'm dating a

21:29

chef and I might be done . But thanks for all

21:32

the help all these years . And I literally

21:34

left Cunningham , j Michael

21:36

Bloom , I was working actress

21:38

and started learning everything I could about wine

21:40

and we went down to DC

21:43

.

21:43

He worked for Jean Louis , I worked for Jean

21:45

Louis Palladin , which is

21:48

a name that , strangely enough , does

21:50

not get around very much these days . A

21:52

master . Yeah , one

21:54

of the true greats , and I watched him

21:56

on PBS From Gasgul A

21:58

master from Gasgul , I

22:01

mean .

22:01

Then we went to the Inland Washington and

22:03

they don't hire couples , but I

22:06

worked in DC and there

22:08

you go , and from there we just kept

22:10

rolling .

22:11

What are the things about Chip's

22:13

food that you find easy to pair

22:15

with wine ?

22:17

He has . He

22:20

cooks everything separate and

22:22

assembles it , and

22:24

the sauce is still done separately . He

22:27

makes sauces . Sauce is

22:29

poured table side and the sauces

22:31

are never overly like

22:34

to something that sometimes they

22:36

do .

22:36

They're never too saucy .

22:38

They're never too saucy , they don't need that

22:40

. They got me . But he doesn't

22:42

do anything too out

22:44

of the box , which , organically , I have to say

22:46

, 50% of the time . Wine

22:49

pairings do the job for me . The wine in the food does

22:51

it for me . You just have to pay attention

22:53

to what you're tasting . You have to pay attention

22:55

to what's in the wine . It is ironic

22:57

how sometimes a dish inspired by a region

23:00

, the wine from that region just

23:02

automatically goes with it . It just automatically

23:04

loves each other . Then you have things

23:06

like crab meat and wine from Switzerland , which is

23:08

like that's bizarre , but they love

23:10

each other . So you just have to taste

23:13

the whole essence and

23:16

then find the nuances , and that's what we do

23:18

. That's how I learned about wine primarily . I'm

23:20

not a pin-simole gay . I'm not as

23:22

educated as many of my peers who are so

23:24

amazing . I won't name someone's name

23:26

, sarah , but all of these people

23:28

at least Granik , john McElwain , all

23:30

these people who I so admire because

23:32

they are so learned I

23:34

go to tasting just to hear them talk

23:37

about wine . Take my notes , go share

23:39

it with my staff .

23:41

What I love . You're on the floor just

23:43

to describe this . So we've got a

23:45

long voice message . We've got handwritten

23:47

menus at both restaurants

23:50

. We've got a chef who cooked with Paladins

23:52

, who cooked with Four Joan , we've

23:54

got you who's . You guys have built

23:56

restaurants together for a long time

23:58

and what

24:00

I've always noticed is you're so fearless

24:03

with splashing

24:05

and pairing wine outside

24:07

of the norm and maybe , maybe

24:09

even not having all of that background

24:12

offers a new palette for

24:15

dishes and for your choices . You

24:18

seem to be fearless . Is that actually true ?

24:20

Well , I think that because I didn't learn

24:22

the way that others

24:24

maybe do , I only learned about

24:26

it from tasting food and then having a wine

24:28

, because this is how it happened . And then I would go back to the

24:30

food and I would be like , wow , that tastes

24:32

awful now . And then I would taste the wine

24:34

. I was like , did that affect my food ? Then

24:36

did the food affect my wine ? And then

24:38

I said I wonder how often that happens in a restaurant

24:40

where people say , oh , I don't , I

24:43

don't like Reese's , I don't like champagne , I

24:45

don't like uh burros , and

24:47

you think why ? Who gave you a

24:49

bad glass of wine ? We

24:52

need to fix this immediately . And

24:54

so that's what I realized

24:56

is , if that changed the way , and because I didn't drink

24:59

a lot before , it was a new learning

25:01

thing for me . I think that what I was tasting

25:04

and how it affected it , you

25:06

know , came , came about , and that's how I

25:09

just learned about wine , as I kept going

25:11

, going , going and never thought to take

25:13

a class . You know the past 15

25:15

, 15 years , you know all

25:17

of the wine sexiness and all the learning

25:19

and all the careers are very new .

25:22

And so true .

25:23

And very multi-tiered and very

25:25

like dynamic . All these people are doing things

25:27

that I never would have even known existed .

25:29

And there's so much more wine from so many places

25:32

. That's better than it was 15 years

25:34

ago .

25:34

So much more , although I will happily

25:36

say that I was pouring Swiss wine in the outer banks

25:38

when I first started , because I loved it . People thought

25:40

I was crazy . I poured Gurgic's

25:43

plavik molly by the glass

25:45

. Plavik molly Incredible . People are like

25:47

what is that ? I said it's from Croatia . Is

25:50

that the most delicious thing you've ever had ? They're like

25:52

do you have any ? Uh , hess

25:54

, cabernet , and

25:57

I would like . No , I have plavik

25:59

molly .

26:02

I'd love to play a fun , some

26:04

game with you . Ok , a very short one . So

26:06

some people tune in and they're not in the

26:08

wine business . They want to hear some

26:11

insider stuff . So I'm going to throw a couple

26:13

things and I just want to hear

26:15

what Tina would pair .

26:17

OK .

26:18

I did a Google search the hardest things to pair

26:21

just to give you a little bit of a curve

26:23

.

26:24

I can imagine artichokes are one .

26:25

Yeah , artichokes are always coming up

26:27

as one of the hardest things to pair . What

26:30

do you like with artichokes ?

26:33

So artichokes like

26:35

muscato giallo , from

26:38

which is the yellow muscat grape , and

26:41

it also can be

26:43

paired sometimes

26:45

with a Melonda Bargona . It

26:47

wants something that's a little more pithy

26:49

and earthy , like it is , because it's that

26:52

it's a sauce catcher . Artichokes are sauce

26:54

catchers . So when you go vinaigrette , you

26:56

got to go muscato giallo , and when you

26:58

go with something that's earthier , it's done with

27:00

chicken stock or it's part

27:02

of a dish , say it's being served with chicken

27:04

or pork or quail Then

27:07

you have to think about the composed bite

27:09

and how it works together , and then

27:11

I would lean towards even a

27:13

rosé from Italy , which is otherwise

27:15

known as oh .

27:17

Tiberand .

27:17

Tiberand from Provence . We just

27:19

talked about this on Saturday night , Also

27:22

with artichokes . It has to be a savory

27:24

rosé . It cannot be a springy

27:26

, summery , bright , sassy rosé . It

27:29

has to be one with some texture and age on it .

27:31

What do you love with foie gras ?

27:34

Foie gras . I never go dessert level because you

27:36

and I talked about this one night . When you go dessert

27:38

level at the beginning of your meal to reset your taste

27:40

buds is very difficult to have your taste

27:42

buds come back to you . So one of my

27:44

favorite things is going to be pina

27:46

grea , a single vineyard type of

27:49

pina grea . Because of the texture . I

27:51

also like a mignet from Switzerland

27:53

with foie gras . That's probably

27:55

right up there with my number one . Also

27:58

recently , Jure and Sain , we've discovered

28:00

the demi , not the dry , not the sweet

28:02

. The one that falls right in the middle , the one

28:04

that's just off dry and has a little weight , is

28:07

delicious with foie gras .

28:08

It depends on how the foie gras is

28:10

, but it seems like sherry can be a good

28:13

thing . It's just not always the right

28:15

thing to do at the beginning , but

28:17

it can be because sherry can open the palate .

28:19

Well , I think sherry , if you do in a montialo right

28:22

and it has a little nuttiness and it depends on , like

28:24

you say , how the foie gras is done . If

28:26

the foie gras has citrus , you're going to have to go Jure

28:29

and Sain are pina grea because of the citrus

28:31

flavors . And even when you go down to Spain , maybe

28:34

do the mountain Bronco right the muscat

28:37

from . Andalusia . Yes , you can maybe

28:39

do that .

28:40

From Malaya .

28:41

Yeah , because of the citrus notes , the orange .

28:43

What about tomatoes and

28:45

tomatoes in season ? What do you love

28:47

to pair ?

28:48

Tomatoes which

28:50

even in God help me , don't

28:52

anyone in an Italian restaurant hate me , but I never do

28:54

red wine with tomato sauce . I

28:57

always want white wine with

28:59

fresh tomatoes , and again , it depends

29:01

on how it comes on the plate . Is it salt and

29:03

pepper and just the tomatoes of

29:05

the season ? Then that wants to be

29:08

, depending on how ripe they are . We

29:10

are not blessed with great tomato season every year

29:12

, so you're always searching for that . It's

29:14

like searching for red burgundy . Right , the tomato

29:16

. But I like

29:19

not Rosé , usually a white

29:21

, not French , except

29:24

maybe the roll grape , maybe

29:27

Corsica . I like the roll

29:29

grape when it's done in Corsica . I

29:31

also like blends are always easy

29:34

because it captures notes . That's

29:36

why blends are amazing , because they offer you so

29:38

much from so many different things . Shennan

29:40

, depending on the style of Shennan , not

29:43

super dry , wants to be off dry with the tomato

29:45

. And then , going back to Italy

29:47

, some vernaccio , some verdicchio

29:49

, depends on the pecorino

29:51

.

29:52

Those are great Maybe .

29:53

Zibibbo .

29:54

Oh , a little Zibibbo . Last one

29:56

, chocolate , seems to be

29:58

something that's argued about a lot . What do

30:00

? You like to pair with ? Again , we're being

30:02

pretty generic here . It's

30:05

not a specific dish , but what is a chocolate

30:07

pairing that you like ?

30:08

Vanuels .

30:09

Vanuels is so great .

30:10

Vanuels for smoky chocolate and

30:13

for chocolate that's an accompaniment to

30:15

any nut , would be rivissalt . And again sherry

30:17

, but sherry on the PX

30:20

side , maybe even not the PX side , but

30:22

olorosa .

30:23

Yeah , you got olorosa For me

30:25

also . Some of the creams can go very well

30:28

Cream sherry .

30:28

Cream sherry with hazelnut and chocolate

30:31

is a fantastic thing . And almonds

30:33

yeah , so it depends on how the chocolate

30:35

is used , but I find that with pure chocolate

30:37

it's hard to beat

30:39

Vanuels .

30:41

Vanuels is such a beautiful place .

30:43

It's so pretty there and rivissalt is right

30:45

.

30:46

Not so far away .

30:46

Not so far away .

30:48

A little shameless plug . We're drinking

30:50

two sherrys from the D'Amazon

30:52

portfolio the Perron's . On the back . Always

30:55

We've got Manuel Aragon Fino

30:57

Granero , so he's from Chiclana

30:59

. This is a very specific

31:01

sherry . So he owns his vineyards

31:03

, he farms them organically , he makes his wines , he

31:06

ages his wines and

31:08

there's not a lot of people that do that . It's

31:11

exceedingly rare and I love

31:13

when sherry . For me it's about

31:15

salt , it's about chalk , it's about

31:17

echo , how it stays

31:19

on the palate and there is a freshness

31:22

feel . So it's really beautiful and then right next

31:24

to it . I thought I rarely get

31:26

to sit with you and talk for this long . So

31:29

this is the Montialo Antiquario

31:31

from El Maestro Sierra , which is

31:33

a bottle of wine that

31:35

some of the sherry

31:38

in that goes back to 1830 , which

31:40

is the sherry that the

31:42

proprietress poured for Andre when he first

31:44

visited and that started the

31:46

relationship with El Maestro Sierra .

31:48

And that's what I mean about learning from people . You give all

31:50

these beautiful points about all the

31:52

stuff that I'm supposed to know about . When it comes to the wine and

31:55

the whole time I've been sitting here , you know , basically

31:57

glugging the

31:59

sherry , I'm thinking

32:02

salty ham and cheese sandwich

32:04

, sardines with fresh herbs , wild

32:06

striped bass with clams .

32:07

Let's do that tonight .

32:08

Let's do that tonight , and

32:10

you know , pasta with lobster . That's the first one , and

32:13

then on the second one I'm thinking

32:15

cheese and nuts and I

32:18

mean that's what happens when I drink any kind

32:20

of wine , like when people say , what do you do when you taste

32:22

wine ? I said I'm immediately thinking about what can

32:24

it go with , and is it in the season for those

32:26

things for us ? Yet ?

32:28

That's one of the things that strikes me

32:30

, because a lot of times we on in the wine

32:32

world , the industry , we get so

32:34

technically focused and

32:36

we lose track of the gastronomy

32:39

of things that these things

32:41

are meant to be at table Basically

32:43

. That's what wine is right .

32:45

It's part of your gastronomy .

32:46

Yeah .

32:47

It is , you know , wine unlike liquor , and

32:49

I appreciate that people also

32:51

want to pair liquor with dinner and do cocktails . I

32:54

appreciate that . But when you think in essence

32:56

of especially wine from

32:58

the , from old countries and small

33:00

villages all over the world , they

33:02

don't . They don't think about their day without

33:05

wine and food going together and

33:07

they almost seems

33:09

like , subconsciously , the wines that are from

33:12

their regions . Mother Nature

33:14

seems to have known what to give them to grow

33:17

to go with the food that they're making . There

33:19

is no doubt that they go together

33:21

, right .

33:22

That's so true when

33:24

years ago this was might

33:26

have been 07 or 08 . I

33:29

was at Blue Ribbon Wine Bar and

33:31

I was served a foie gras torchon with

33:34

some of that El Maestro Sierra

33:36

Montiado Antiquario , the

33:38

old cherry , and

33:41

it was like a thunder

33:43

clap of flavor . I have

33:45

never since then

33:48

had such an epiphany

33:50

like moment with Sherry and it's just driven

33:52

me since and shout out to Sean

33:54

and Sam Kevin , all

33:56

the people that were there at that bar

33:58

at that time and it's

34:01

just an incredible thing to be able to taste

34:03

such antique wines that have such

34:05

they're just so long . I mean

34:07

, this wine is still going .

34:09

Totally still going . I mean , you can have this

34:12

particular well , this one too . Like I said , you can drink

34:14

this with any kind of kind

34:16

of beautiful Fresh fish dish , but the

34:18

a month y'all , though , can go with quail . I .

34:20

Love stuff quail .

34:22

Yeah , it could go with duck

34:24

, depending on the preparation . You know it's a

34:26

given that they both go with roast chicken . It's

34:28

interesting to think about Sherry's the

34:30

more you taste them , the more they capture you . We

34:33

don't taste or drink enough of them just because we

34:35

don't . But Spain's become so popular in travel

34:37

and now people come back and you pour Sherry

34:39

and no one says , oh , I don't want that . Everyone

34:42

says , oh , cool , what kind of Sherry

34:44

is it ? And you're like , yay , thanks for travel

34:46

years ago .

34:47

You had to give it away .

34:48

Oh yeah , but now they all , like we

34:50

were chip changed something for the middle

34:53

treat to guest right and so we

34:55

were talking and I was trying to think about what I want

34:57

with the middle treat and

34:59

I said , well , I definitely abyssal , I want

35:01

abyssal , that would be amazing with this . And

35:03

I'm thinking , and then I'm staring

35:05

at my stuff and I was like what is wrong with me

35:08

this is it won't share . It's

35:10

looking right at me , it's right there . Lobster

35:13

bisque , a canal of lobster scallop

35:15

.

35:15

Shrimp mousse with Paragord truffle

35:17

dear Lord , I Don't

35:20

even know what to say . That sounds

35:22

so good .

35:23

You pour it for everybody and everybody drinks it . They're

35:25

like oh my god , I'm like right on

35:27

right .

35:29

This is what I mean about fearless , and

35:31

something I admire about you .

35:32

Yeah well , you've got to listen to what

35:34

the plate and the glass is talking to you . You

35:37

can't , you have to be in that conversation with it . You

35:39

know , I always say to people they say how did you

35:41

learn so much about wine ? And I said I'm still learning

35:44

. Because if I , if I'm not

35:46

learning , if I'm not saying I'm learning all the

35:48

time , that means I stopped tasting , that

35:50

means I stopped tasting what I'm tasting

35:53

, I Letting it be a

35:55

given . Some things are classical

35:57

and fun for me to do that are so

35:59

crazy that they go together and I never change it . I

36:01

do it all the time because it's so crazy , like Caesar

36:04

salad , the way Chip makes a Caesar Giverts

36:07

to me now , giverts to me now and

36:09

Caesar salad it will blow

36:11

your head off .

36:12

That is like a curveball and

36:14

a knuckleball all in all , yeah and people

36:16

still come .

36:17

I did this on the outer banks Was my first pairing

36:19

. People still come up and say good much to me

36:21

. I said , yeah , man , let's do it .

36:26

Of all the things to be known for . It's so great . I

36:28

know what is inspiring you now

36:30

in the wine world . Is there anything that's new

36:32

or something that people should look out for

36:34

that you've Discovered

36:37

recently ?

36:38

There's always just so much . Recently

36:40

, over before we got

36:43

open , I got to go to wines from Uruguay

36:45

and which I never even knew

36:47

they made wine there , and so that was interesting

36:49

to discover with Josh , our friend Josh Green

36:52

. I'm always excited when

36:54

people now I don't I don't go out

36:56

very much anymore for tastings because we're too

36:58

busy but I'm always excited

37:00

when people bring me a bag of

37:02

wine knowing that

37:05

I'm gonna be the one to pair it and sell it for you . I'm

37:07

gonna put that in front of somebody . They're gonna go retail

37:10

and buy it the champagne you pour

37:12

from us .

37:13

Broker Pierre is just

37:15

an insanely delicious , delicious glass

37:18

bottle of wine and it's so unique it's not

37:20

like any other champagnes I've had .

37:22

I mean champagnes for dinner , champagnes

37:24

for popcorn , champagnes with scrambled

37:26

eggs . It doesn't really matter when you have champagne

37:28

, as long as you're having it . But in the recent year

37:31

of , champagne's become quite a Artisanal

37:33

small-house champagne's , aren't we ? Aren't

37:36

we all lucky to be tasting all of

37:38

these smaller production ?

37:40

This is one of the big changes , isn't it ? It's

37:42

something that is kind of it's just

37:44

happened and we think it's normal now

37:46

, but it wasn't so long ago that

37:49

there were so few . I Remember

37:51

Jim onee was one of the few

37:54

names that was a grower

37:56

champagne . I was like grower champagne

37:58

. What does that even mean ?

38:00

That's right . And now you

38:02

just keep . Now we're hungry for all of

38:04

it because it's a , it's a micro expression

38:06

from small people who get small amount of

38:08

land . And so I like

38:11

to do small houses of Anything

38:14

I can , because we're small house , I'm

38:16

small house . I like to support those

38:18

who are also hands-on , family

38:21

run at their places

38:23

, intent on the work , intent

38:25

on the product , intent on getting it to you

38:27

, intent on you enjoying it , happy

38:30

that you're buying it . You know I don't

38:32

need to . I have customers . I have

38:35

very learned , knowledgeable customers

38:37

. And wine . They all have sexy wine sellers

38:40

. They all buy and collect . They don't need me to collect

38:42

for them . They have their

38:44

own beautiful burgundies and Bordeaux

38:46

and Shatinoff de Pops and northern

38:48

run . They don't need me to find those for them . They

38:51

have found themselves . When

38:53

they come in to see me , they

38:56

want to know what I found that they

38:58

have not heard of yet , that they haven't

39:00

discovered yet . And they know I'm tasting

39:02

it and they know I'm not tasting it . Just to be different . It

39:04

just happens that the different is what goes with

39:07

food . The

39:09

different that I find is what Captures

39:12

the trotter . It's what captures the

39:14

sweet bread we I was just telling you

39:16

how I poured 2014 Cannadelle

39:18

rosé 2014

39:20

Cannadelle rosé , which is no longer

39:23

super fruity it's savory

39:25

and Irby and sexy

39:27

Viscosity on the palate . It has

39:29

this weight on your tongue

39:31

that just keeps going bandol

39:34

rosé Gets

39:36

Really special with

39:38

age , in my opinion . Well , that's what made

39:40

Tompeanot Become Tompeanot

39:43

over the years was the collectability of it , the aging

39:45

. But I poured

39:48

that with sweet breads and

39:50

hedgehog mushrooms and reduced

39:52

chicken stock the other night and

39:54

that was Heaven . It

39:57

was , a bite of each was heaven .

39:58

I'm salivating . So good that sounds

40:01

so good and again I was having trouble .

40:03

Oh , do I still have the 14 Cannadelle

40:05

rosé ? My team was like rosé

40:07

with sweet breads . I said , trust me , let's go

40:09

for this , open it , let's see what it tastes like

40:11

together . And we do . We taste it with

40:14

the food . You know we'll order it . So

40:16

they're learning the same way and they're all

40:18

so great , this team . I've always been blessed

40:20

with a good front of the house team who want to learn . But they're

40:23

just in there swinging with me . It's like an ensemble

40:25

. We all work like an ensemble .

40:26

You got to be able to swing . What is For

40:29

you , if you had to describe the

40:32

experience of Oolali , what

40:34

is it like ? Because a lot of people

40:36

are gonna hear this and they're gonna want to come . I'm just

40:38

curious what your vision of

40:41

the experiences ?

40:42

I always say that it is as

40:45

if you Were able

40:47

to take a quick vacation and didn't pay for plane

40:49

fare , because it's the same experiences

40:52

when you walk into a small town that you just got off

40:54

the plane , you got into your hotel

40:56

and I'm not talking Paris , of course . I'm talking

40:58

countryside , I'm not talking Milan , talking

41:01

in the hillsides of of San Gimiano

41:03

, and and then you walk down the cobbled

41:05

street and you tuck into some restaurant You've never

41:08

heard of and and it's Exceptional

41:11

it's magic , right , because it's a whole

41:13

. It captures every sensory that

41:15

you're wanting to experience . You're

41:18

not thinking about work , you're not thinking

41:20

about Pretention , you're not thinking

41:22

about things that cause you stress

41:24

. You have released yourself to the trip , and

41:27

dinner becomes Part of that

41:29

release , right . It's part of of of

41:31

your soul , and when you come to see

41:33

us , that's all we want to do is have you would walk

41:35

into the door and leave your day behind you and Forget

41:38

that you had any troubles for the day . That's

41:40

the goal .

41:43

That is so beautiful , and so

41:45

that's exactly what it's like . Thank

41:47

you so much for being on the Perron cast

41:49

today . It's so wonderful to see you .

41:51

I love seeing you . Thank you , Ryan . See

41:54

you soon , or Frank Sorry .

42:00

Thanks for listening to the Perron cast . I'm your host , ryan

42:02

Looper . Today's episode was

42:04

produced by yours truly , the

42:07

music by the Julian Tamers . Special

42:10

Thanks to today's guests , the

42:12

teams at Dumezon East and Dumezon selections

42:15

and all of the growers in

42:17

the Dumezon portfolio . Remember you

42:19

turn the bottle around , you find the Perron , it's

42:22

Dumezon and if you

42:24

have a permanent party , you should really share that

42:26

thing . Quit hogging it . Okay , past the Perron

42:28

. You like the podcast

42:30

? You want to find it on one of the platforms

42:33

? Just search the Perron cast , hit follow

42:35

. We got lots more to come

42:37

. We're also on the Instagram at

42:39

the Perron cast . Look

42:43

forward to sharing some more with you

42:45

soon . Thanks .