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Hey pro organizers. It's Melissa. And I'm coming to you on a Monday morning.

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I am fully caffeinated, well, rested and ready to go into the month of April.

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And I hope you are too. April is going to be a crazy month for us here at Pro Organizer Studio.

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We are revamping all of our programs.

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We are revamping branding. We are doing all of the things.

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By the way, when I say we it's me. I am it.

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So I am doing all these things. Because I am a solopreneur, as many of you are.

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So anyway, shout out to all of us who are running our businesses,

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doing all the things, and getting lots of great things out there.

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So just remember I am here for you.

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I understand the solopreneur life. Anyway, I wanted to bring you a special podcast today.

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A few weeks ago, I had my good friend and fellow Twin Cities

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organizer Missi McKown on with me.

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We talked about ADHD. We talked about all sorts of things, but.

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I kept this one back because it was a special one and I wanted to make

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sure that I honored the subject. And Missi is talking about grief and we are talking about working with clients.

1:12

Who are going through grief, whether that is recent, very fresh grief,

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or whether that is long ago, grief that continues to go with you.

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This is something that is really close to Missi personally, and she will tell

1:25

you why, but we wanted to have this conversation because as an organizer,

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you might be working with someone who was going through the grief process.

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And sometimes it's hard to know what to do.

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We wanted to give you some concrete things that you could

1:39

do with clients to help them. One of the things that I do want to say at the beginning of this,

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we recorded this before Missi and I were on a radio show together.

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And after we recorded that session on Minnesota public radio a few weeks ago.

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There was someone who was in the MPR offices and she

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asked to talk to us afterward. And this person.

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talked to us for a long time about her own grief and about what she

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had been through losing a partner. And it's just a reminder that we, as organizers do such

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important work with people. It's not just about getting the stuff out of the house.

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It's really about working with people through some of the

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hardest times of their life. And the openness that we can have as organizers can really help people

2:32

process their grief while we are not licensed therapists in any way, we all

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know that we operate as therapists. Uh, quite frequently in our business.

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And so we just wanted to have a conversation about this.

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I think it's an important one. And I hope that it helps you.

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The next time you work with a client who is working through some difficult things.

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I am excited to start this wonderful new month of April.

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And I hope you are too. And as always, if there's anything I can do for you, hit me up at

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[email protected].

3:03

Here is my friend, Missi McKown of Clear Spaces Organizing

3:08

You have had very personal experiences with grief.

3:12

And I have recently had some friends that have been going through

3:16

very difficult times with grief. And it is really hard because you know, you don't, You

3:20

probably don't know how to feel. They don't know how to feel.

3:23

They're just, they're all a tremendous amount of emotion.

3:25

So can you tell us a little bit about your story?

3:28

Sure. A lot of people I love have died.

3:32

I guess that's the best way to start it. The first big loss in my life was my grandma, and I was only 21, so I expected

3:40

her to live a bit longer but she also had cancer, and had been given four

3:46

months to live, and had already lived I don't know, another 10 years past that.

3:49

It was a long time. And all of the time with Grandma felt special and extra.

3:54

But we were extremely close. If you have ever been to my house around Christmas time, you will see a

3:59

Wheel of Fortune ornament on the tree.

4:01

That is in honor of Grandma Jo. She gave it to me when she was still alive, obviously.

4:05

That'd be weird. And it was just a show that she would watch all the time

4:09

and we would watch it together. And if we were apart we would watch it in our own separate houses and call each

4:14

other and make our guesses over the phone.

4:16

Oh, I love that. solved the puzzles. Yeah, and when my parents were going through a divorce, I just spent

4:21

a lot of time at grandma's house. I was a teenager then and it was just, I don't know, we got really close.

4:26

So losing her at 21 felt, it was extremely significant.

4:30

And then my uncle, my grandma's son Uncle TJ, he was just Permanent Bachelor,

4:37

and because of that, he was just always available to the nieces and nephews, and

4:42

and after Grandma passed away, he carried on the tradition of Sunday night dinners,

4:46

and we would keep meeting at his house, and the whole family was super close.

4:49

There just weren't that many of us. And so when Uncle TJ passed away in 2014, that was another Just big loss.

4:56

He was kind of like a surrogate dad in my life, a really stable male presence, and

5:01

just a really good, tender hearted guy.

5:04

The next loss, this one was the hardest it's my brother, and he passed away in

5:09

2015, and it was just my brother and I growing up, so I did get some step

5:15

siblings along the way, and in a way after his loss, I felt a lot like an only child

5:22

because, between my mom and my dad, you know, I'm the only kid left from that

5:27

relationship and that has been strange and something I'm still unpacking in therapy.

5:33

Right. But I was thinking about it even this morning when I was driving around.

5:37

I feel like we have this tendency to make people who have passed away

5:43

better in our mind than they were.

5:45

It's almost like we don't see their flaws anymore because the absence that

5:50

they're, of their presence is so strong that we just remember all the good things.

5:55

And I don't actually think there's anything wrong with that.

5:58

I think it's okay to remember people at their best.

6:03

And because that's what you're missing, you know? I'm not looking back fondly at fights we had when we were kids.

6:09

It's just You know, missing his presence and even his presence now that, you know,

6:14

we both would have been into our 40s now and it would have been cool to just see

6:18

what our relationship looked like then. He passed away at 33 and gosh, I don't think that I have ever I've

6:25

been so devastated in my life. It lasts a

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long time too. I think that's the other thing is grief is not something that you, there's a

6:33

timeline on where you just say, well, it's a year and then things are better.

6:36

And I'm sure that there are times like, you know, I, you texted me that

6:40

it was a celebration of life and, you know, and you'll be doing that

6:44

for, you know, decades more, right?

6:46

Like you still remember that person and I.

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I read something once when a friend was going through a very hard

6:52

time and I just, I thought this was a really great description.

6:55

They said you're in a, you have a box and there's a button that grief is.

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And at first the, there's a ball in the box and it's huge.

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And that ball is constantly touching the button.

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Like it's just relentless. And then eventually the ball starts to get smaller, but it

7:10

starts to ping around the box. And so it'll hit the grief button.

7:13

At times you don't expect it and then it'll still be there and the

7:17

ball might be the teeniest tiniest little ball, but it'll still hit

7:20

that button every once in a while. I just thought that was a beautiful description for people that haven't

7:25

been through as much just to say you have no idea when it is going

7:29

to hit you and that it's going to be hard for a really long time.

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Even just the what ifs and the what would it be like, right,

7:37

right. Yeah, and what you're talking about is his birthday.

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Yeah, we do a celebration every year on his birthday and it was it was recent.

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Yeah, and that's fun, and that's kind of evolved over the years.

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I was just talking with a client about it this week actually because her mom

7:52

passed away in the fall, and now I'm working with her dad, and then she's

7:56

there to kind of help, kind of have be a, the last chance her and her sister

8:01

are looking at things before they go out the door to make sure that before

8:05

stuff gets donated if there's anything that they're interested in that they can

8:08

pluck it out of the pile and keep it. And they have a keep it for right now pile too because I'm just like there's

8:13

no rush on any of this you know, we can take our time with it and Yeah, it's

8:20

just a beautiful gift to be Invited into people's lives when they are

8:25

experiencing grief and it The grief, to your point, can feel completely fresh,

8:32

even if it's been a decade or more.

8:34

And it takes different people different lengths of time to be ready

8:39

to invite someone into their space. I have worked with some folks as soon as five months after

8:44

their partner has passed away. And I was just blown away that they were ready.

8:49

I've worked with some folks where it's been years especially, you know,

8:53

items from parents who have passed away that they've been hanging on to.

8:57

And, oh my gosh, I was just talking to a client about this yesterday.

9:00

Do you remember the TV show Clean Sweep with Peter Walsh?

9:03

From TLC? Okay. It's part of my story of how I started organizing.

9:07

Yours is Marie Kondo, mine is Peter Walsh. Yep. And she had remembered this episode where there was this green vacuum that

9:16

the siblings were like, well, we can't get rid of the green vacuum because we

9:19

have so many memories of mom using it.

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And she said that Peter Walsh told them your mom is not this vacuum, but

9:26

if this vacuum holds that much memory, what if we took a picture of it and

9:31

we framed it and you could hang it? in your home.

9:34

And that's what they did. And it was this beautiful way of still honoring their mom and honoring

9:39

this item that held so much like deep meaning and memories for them.

9:44

But in a way that it didn't add unnecessary clutter to their life.

9:47

They weren't going to use the vacuum, you know, There's so many

9:50

cool ways to honor people's stuff.

9:55

I know you, for your kiddos have done that with would you want

9:57

to talk about the baby shoes? Yeah There are some things that I'm really nostalgic about.

10:02

And and for some reason, baby shoes is one of them.

10:05

And so I turned them into Christmas ornaments because I

10:07

was like, I can't, I don't want to get rid of these things, but.

10:11

It doesn't make sense. You're not just going to keep them in a box.

10:14

And that is one of the things. So when you're talking about the picture of the vacuum, I work really

10:19

hard with my clients to try to honor.

10:22

That's one of the biggest things I got from Marie Kondo.

10:24

I understand a lot of people are not Marie fans. I get it.

10:27

But there are some really beautiful things in the method.

10:30

And one of them, the biggest things that I learned was find a way to honor the things

10:35

that you say are really important to you.

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Because if I would have just taken my kids baby shoes and just said, I

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can't possibly part with these, but then I put them inside a box that's

10:45

under another box behind another box. That's gathering dust in my storage room.

10:49

I'm not honoring those I like trying to do something good with those things.

10:55

It's not to say that there aren't items that you just say, I have to keep this

10:58

because I'm not ready to part with it. That was totally normal, but finding creative ways to help your clients.

11:05

Take some of those sentimental things and turn them into something beautiful

11:08

that they can remember that person. I try to do a lot.

11:11

So you too. And if it's a person that celebrates Christmas and does a tree, there's so

11:17

many cool things you can do with it. Yes.

11:20

Yeah. I have flowers from the funeral service for my grandma, for my uncle, TJ,

11:25

and for my brother that are the first three things on the tree every year.

11:28

And and I usually forget about it until I open up the Christmas bin

11:32

and they're sitting there at the top. And then I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah, that's right.

11:35

You need to have a moment. So yeah, usually I

11:39

do. Yeah, I don't know, there's just, there's something special about being invited

11:44

into such a sacred space where you're getting to touch and honor someone's

11:52

things that they have left behind And yeah, to your point that honoring it

11:56

and finding a good spot for it, if it's something that they want to keep just

12:00

holding space for those conversations and holding space for the emotions too.

12:03

And I know not every organizer is for this.

12:05

I mean, there are some that, you know, if you have a crying client,

12:07

they don't really know what to do. But if you're working with someone in grief, be prepared because it will happen.

12:13

And Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to be able to give people space to feel their

12:18

emotions and you can do what feels right to you, you know, for some folks that

12:22

might just be backing away and giving them space, some people really like to grieve

12:25

in private or they'll remove themselves from the room and just let them.

12:29

You know, let them do what they need to do. You

12:31

can also ask, you know, you can also sometimes it's awkward

12:34

if you don't know what to do. And so then you're like taking a guess and then it's also okay to just say, would

12:39

you like to be alone for a little bit? Or would you like me to sit next to you and just help you?

12:44

You know, you can ask that person and then they can decide.

12:47

Yeah. That concept of holding space, sometimes people just need to know

12:50

that someone's beside them and there. And that is the time.

12:53

I think that you need to be maximally flexible.

12:56

We've talked a little bit about flexibility, but when you're working

12:59

with someone who is in grief, whether it's new grief or, you know, aged

13:04

grief, which is still very important. You've got to read, you said earlier, read the room.

13:09

You've got to really read the room harder than you do with any other client

13:13

because you don't want to push them. You don't want to push them to make difficult decisions

13:16

that they're not ready for. That's the one time that I think in organizing, you have to know the time

13:21

when it's right to push your client because you have the clients that are

13:23

just avoiding the decision entirely. When you're working with someone in grief, it's a very different thing

13:28

and you have to be really careful. Yep, I, that's

13:31

100 percent true, because also, especially if it's fresh grief, I

13:35

kept checking in with my client, you know, when it's fresh grief,

13:38

I'm like, are you sure you're ready? I'm just nervous that you're going to come home.

13:43

I will have cleared out all of your partner's clothing from the

13:46

closet, and you will go and open that door and find it very empty.

13:50

Are you ready for that?

13:53

And they were like, yes, we have talked about this extensively with

13:56

the family we're all on board. And they're like, I need you to know that so that you feel comfortable.

14:01

I was like okay, I just, thank you. Thank you for catching me up to speed because the last thing I want to do

14:07

is for somebody who's already In fresh grief, you know, push them over the

14:11

edge and all of a sudden they realize I wasn't ready, you know, and I've already

14:14

taken the clothes to the donation. The clothes are already

14:16

gone. And then they're like, oops, I made a mistake.

14:19

And that's a super important thing to ask and make sure they're really ready.

14:23

I will tell you too, I have worked with people. I can think of two people specifically, one woman, her mother passed away.

14:30

Over a decade before, and she just said very upfront, she goes, this is

14:34

the first time I've ever been able to consider even going through these things.

14:37

And I'm really ready now, but I still checked with her.

14:40

I was like, I want to make sure if at any point in this process,

14:43

you feel like I made a mistake.

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I can't do it. It doesn't matter that it's been a decade.

14:47

If it's too much, we're not going to do it. And then there was another woman.

14:50

This actually made me really sad. She had not been able to let a single thing of her mom's.

14:56

Go. And so she brought her mom's entire home to her house.

15:01

And subsequently, I mean, she could barely live in her house because

15:04

she had two houses worth of stuff. And there was one thing in particular, I was being very gentle with her

15:10

because this was very hard for her and it had been many years.

15:13

And I said, okay, well, what about this? It was a washcloth.

15:16

And she goes, absolutely not. That was my mom's washcloth.

15:18

I can't possibly think about parting with it. And I just remember I only went there once.

15:23

I think it was too much for her. Right. And you just realize it makes you sad that some people are not going to be

15:28

able to get out from underneath it. For a very long time.

15:33

Yeah. And we don't understand it, but it's so personal to them.

15:38

Absolutely and I think that's why it's important to have a keep for right now

15:43

section when you're organizing with people in grief, because When they're

15:47

not sure, they're truly not sure.

15:49

So let, yeah, to your point, there's no sense in pushing.

15:52

I, I just always err on the side of caution anyway.

15:55

So I'm like, okay, sounds great. Let's keep it. And then we just decide where we're going to keep it.

15:59

And if they're open to it, you know, when would you like to revisit it again?

16:03

But for some folks, that's not necessary. If they have the space in the storage room, like it can just

16:07

sit there until they're ready. What are some of the things that you find, or is there any commonality of

16:13

the people that are reaching out to you? in terms of, have they had just some sort of like a

16:18

breakthrough of it's the time, or?

16:21

One that reached out last month said that her partner had passed

16:25

away suddenly from a heart attack.

16:28

And she said, well, I know I'm not going to stay in this house.

16:32

Yeah. And she goes, but I don't know when I'm going to move, but I know

16:36

that I won't stay here forever. And she said, but there's been one storage room and the whole rest of

16:40

the house, neat as a pin, one storage room where they literally it was

16:45

right across from the guest room. So they would lock the door when they had guests.

16:48

Cause they didn't want anyone to go in it. And not even accidentally oops, the

16:51

bathroom's in here. Don't go in there.

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You, we locked it. And I just thought that was so cute and clever.

16:57

And they yeah, and it was just a regular old storage room, you know, stuff

17:01

where you don't know where it goes. It just went in there. It was nothing too overwhelming, but it was overwhelming for her,

17:06

which made all the sense in the world because now she's alone.

17:09

And that, looking at that space that really hadn't been

17:13

touched in most of the 20 So anyway, it was just an incredible opportunity to enter in and go through

17:23

it and she said to me day one, she goes just so you know, I'm not, I don't

17:26

want to go through it item by item. I want to just open a box and say, let it all go.

17:32

And I said, I hear you.

17:34

And may I share a story with you?

17:36

And she said, sure. And I said, I recently worked with a client where we were going through

17:41

photos and she told us, you know, I don't think you need to go through the photos.

17:45

But we were just getting all the photos together. We were separating the photos from the paperwork, just even from an acid point

17:50

of view to keep, you know, everything from discoloring earlier than it should.

17:55

And I said, at the bottom of this box of photos was a very small

17:58

box and it looked like it was something incredibly sentimental.

18:01

There was some cursive handwriting in there and a very tiny bracelet.

18:05

And we found out when we gave it back to the client that her mom had passed

18:10

away suddenly when she was only 21, I think, and It was a bracelet from when

18:17

she was on her first birthday that her mom had put on her and wrote a little

18:21

note to her on her very first birthday.

18:23

And she hadn't seen that bracelet in literally decades.

18:27

And she was blown away.

18:29

She's like, Missi, I had no idea where this was.

18:32

I didn't even know if it still existed. I would have never.

18:36

ever looked in that box, and she's like, this is more precious to me

18:40

than anything else that you did today.

18:42

Even what you did is incredible. She's like, I love that I can walk in my storage room now.

18:45

Yeah, right. But this means so much.

18:48

And so she got to go on a FaceTime call with her sister in a different state

18:52

that night, and look at it together, read it together, laugh together, cry

18:56

together, share stories about their mom. And she followed up with me to tell me that, because she still was just so in

19:01

love with this gift that we had found.

19:04

So I shared that story with the client and she goes, You don't think that I should

19:09

just open a box and say it should all go? I said, I really don't.

19:12

I said, I would feel absolutely horrible if there was something somewhere that was

19:17

meaningful and later you were wondering, gosh, whatever happened to that thing?

19:21

I wonder where it went. And she goes, okay.

19:24

I'll let you go through every item. I said, I'll, I can sort it, you know, and I can do that pretty quickly.

19:29

But I do want you to have a clear yes or no on what stays or what goes.

19:34

And she also tried to speed up the process too.

19:37

And I slowed her down again. I, and she's I want it all done in one day.

19:41

And I said, I could bring in the team and we can get it all done in

19:43

one day, but man, would you feel overwhelmed at the end of the day?

19:46

That would be so many decisions for one day. And she goes, you think I should do two?

19:49

I said, I think you should do two with less people here.

19:52

Yes. And maybe a week apart or yeah,

19:56

we did have a week apart. I said that you definitely, we should not do it back to back.

19:59

No, we did. It's one full week apart. And I love that you thought that.

20:03

Yep. And it was beautiful.

20:06

She had such treasures in there.

20:09

She got to tell a story after story of her partner and the

20:13

adventures that they went on. They, she had even made like a, our little adventure book all up and.

20:19

I mean, just It was a beautiful time, and she was like, I can't

20:23

believe how much fun this was. She's like, I didn't expect to share stories about, you know, our

20:28

life together and our marriage. And she's like, but that, that just made the whole experience even better.

20:34

I'm wondering if it would be helpful just to have that in mind when

20:39

working, especially with widows or widowers just to create some space

20:43

for them to share stories, because as someone who has lost someone.

20:49

I know that I love it when someone asks me about my brother by name, or they'll

20:54

say Do you remember when Justin did this? And I'll be like, Oh my gosh, yeah, that was ridiculous.

20:58

Or he, cause he was a very funny guy, right? And so there's always some goofy story, or a joke he did, or a

21:03

prank, or, you know, whatever. There's so many of those out there floating around

21:06

with his friends and family. And Once your person is gone, the only thing you have left are stories.

21:14

And if you're, don't get the opportunity to share it, or people make you feel

21:19

like they don't want to hear it it's such a gift when someone says, well,

21:24

tell me about your partner or tell me about how you met or, you know, there's

21:29

so many opportunities to connect there.

21:31

And again, I have to go back to, you got to read the room, you know,

21:34

some people are not ready and they may not want to, but if you've

21:37

done the consult and everything, you've probably gotten a feel for.

21:41

What kind of person you're working with. And when you do get someone who wants to share, it can just be a

21:45

really beautiful point of connection.

21:47

I totally agree with you, especially, it's actually a great way.

21:50

I think to get people who are having a harder time going through the things,

21:55

if they can sometimes talk about it, if you're like, Hey, tell me about.

21:58

You know, tell me about this X, Y, Z thing.

22:00

Tell, or especially if it's sentimental items oh, I see your mom

22:03

graduated from high school in 1930. That must've been, you know, I have a client that I saw his mom's yearbook

22:08

and I'm like, tell me all about it. And I was reading all the inscriptions and, , and you just, people love.

22:13

Not everybody, but most people that are working through these things want

22:17

to tell those stories and it actually makes the process I would argue it

22:21

makes it faster, not slower, because if you let them work through some

22:25

of those stories, it makes them more comfortable of like I can do this.

22:30

Yep. Yeah, no, I agree with that.

22:32

And it's more fun for you too.

22:35

I mean, to connect to the person whose stuff that you're sorting

22:39

through and Yeah, this goes back to me mentioning earlier.

22:45

Yeah, I am a naturally curious person.

22:47

You know, I want to know, I consider our job to be archaeology a little bit.

22:52

You're uncovering all the layers of a family or a person or whatever.

22:56

And again, this may not be your jam, in which case, please call Missi or me,

23:01

we'll totally take care of it for you. But It I do think if this is something that you're attached to I think sometimes

23:08

people, especially maybe newer organizers think, Oh, I have to keep it professional.

23:12

And I shouldn't ask this question. And when I know they're, especially when you're dealing with people

23:16

that are going through sentimental items, really asking those questions,

23:21

I think it makes it a really, it makes the process better for them.

23:25

And it really shows that you care, which we do.

23:28

Absolutely. What do you think you do differently because of your personal, experiences?

23:36

I'm real gentle.

23:40

I don't know that changed though. I feel let's see.

23:43

It's a great question. What do I do differently because Justin has gone?

23:53

Yeah, I, it probably is asking More questions and letting people share

23:58

stories because I know what a gift it is to me when people still remember.

24:04

Oh, yeah, no, I have a story about this.

24:07

So I was working with a client who was unable to go downstairs but needed us

24:12

to, to declutter some items downstairs.

24:15

So while we were down there, I came across What is it called?

24:18

Needlepoint? Oh yeah. cross stitch.

24:21

Yeah. Of their wedding date.

24:24

And it was coming up. And so I quick put a little memo in my calendar to remember.

24:29

And took a picture of it. And so on my client's anniversary date and her partner was gone.

24:34

And this was how we connected. I mean. There's a little blurb about grief on my website, but you kind of

24:38

have to do an archaeological dig to find it on the about page.

24:41

It's like an Easter egg. But, when people find it, and they have grief that they've been experiencing

24:47

too, that's a really great connection point, and I'm very comfortable talking

24:50

about the loss of my brother and death in general, and all sorts of fun stuff.

24:55

We had connected and had the world's longest consultation because of that.

24:59

And so I told her all about my brother, she told me all about her husband, we

25:02

felt like we knew each other's person by the time that we were leaving.

25:04

And, when it was her anniversary, I texted her that photo, and I said, Hey,

25:09

I found this when I was downstairs, you know, a month ago, and just wanted to

25:13

let you know I'm thinking of you today. And, she was like, blown away and so grateful.

25:21

Because I think, as, when you have lost someone, I think the biggest

25:26

fear, or at least it has been for me, is that other people are going

25:29

to forget about my person too. And so when somebody shows up and shows that they remember it was my brother's

25:35

birthday recently, and I had still a few friends, even it's been nine

25:39

years now since he passed away, and still a few friends texted to be like,

25:42

hey, I'm thinking about Justin today. I just wanted to let you know, thinking about you and your family.

25:47

And it means so much because he's not here.

25:50

And so for other people to remember when he was and the gift that his presence

25:55

was in the world, it means so much. Any kind of touchpoint for your client to show that you can remember and acknowledge

26:01

their person I will just say that goes a

26:03

long way. And even if you don't get the exact day, right?

26:07

No, an approximate day you know, especially if it's around a

26:11

hall, I have a friend who lost her mom right around Christmas.

26:13

So Christmas is very hard. And so even if it's just around that time and just say Hey, I'm thinking about you.

26:19

That person is more than likely not going to be like, wow,

26:21

they didn't get the exact day. Just reach out..

26:24

Even if it's after. Oh yeah, I mean, I've got some dear friends that do it like a week early,

26:28

and I'm like, yeah, close enough. Yeah, you know, they're thinking of me, and they're trying to show

26:32

that they care, and I mean, they are showing that they care, and it's just,

26:36

yeah, it's all beautiful and lovely, and the seasonality is so great too.

26:39

You're right. My aunt who lost two husbands over Christmas.

26:42

Oh, that makes me really sad. Yeah.

26:45

So she, she compensated by really decorating her little heart out.

26:50

I would do. Yeah. Yeah. But this is another example of exactly what we were talking about

26:55

with Sarah and she even, you know, had grief as one of her examples.

26:58

But if this is something that you have, unfortunately developed a

27:02

specialty in, and I wish that weren't the case, you know, I wish that

27:06

you had all of your people, but you know, if you have something that you

27:09

are like, I have been through this. And so I understand it, whatever that looks like.

27:12

for you. Just if you are comfortable talking about it, like you have a little blurb

27:17

on your website, if you are comfortable talking about it, put that there because

27:20

it's just going to be another sign for people that like you get me and you feel

27:25

me to the extent that, that feels good.

27:27

Good for you to do. Right.

27:30

Right. Cause yeah, cause there are people that are, especially with all the

27:34

different organizers out there right now, they're looking to see.

27:37

If they can connect with you online, you know, I can, they read something

27:40

that makes them go, Oh yeah, that's the person I want to work with.

27:44

So if you've got anything, if it's, I don't know, Sarah made a long list

27:50

to go back and watch the podcast. Go watch Sarah's episode.

27:53

Link is in the show notes. Will you? I will. I will.

27:55

The other thing that I'm going to say, I never talked about Marie once on

27:59

this podcast, so just go with me again. But, and Marie's a really great person.

28:03

You're not, but other people don't. There's some organizers that aren't a fan of Marie, but anyway, I love her.

28:09

And I, her first show that came out in 2019, there is an episode.

28:15

Her name is Margie and they end up calling her KonMargie at

28:19

the end, which is really fun. Margie. I can't remember how you pronounce it, but her episode is all about grief.

28:24

She had lost her husband and in the first part of the episode, so just go watch it.

28:28

It's really good. But You know, she was not at all.

28:31

She was like, we're not touching his things. They will not be a part of this process.

28:35

And through the process, as they started going through it,

28:38

she realized she was ready. And so then it's showing her working through his things.

28:43

It's just a very beautiful episode. And I highly recommend if you are thinking about this as a subject, we can, we

28:49

should probably find the old Peter Walsh one, if that is out there on the internet.

28:52

somewhere, but, you know, really just thinking about some of the TV shows

28:56

that you can watch that deal with this too, that give you some ideas.

28:59

I think it's always easy to watch a TV show and get ideas.

29:04

We're going to make you read some books and then we're going to make you watch some TV on grief.

29:07

So yeah, everybody's got a signed reading and watching,

29:12

Tell me your favorite thing about your brother.

29:17

No, gal. He could really work a room.

29:22

He could just have people eating out of the palm of his hand.

29:25

He was very funny and witty.

29:30

Quick witted. He loved vocabulary words.

29:34

So any kind of thing that he could turn into a pun, he was a big fan of.

29:38

And they were clever. You had to listen carefully for them or be like, I see what you did there.

29:45

And he was just goofy and light hearted my sister in law and I post

29:50

mortem diagnosed him with ADHD. Oh, of course.

29:54

Yeah, the life of the party, I mean, all of that is true, and he also just

29:59

cared so deeply about his family.

30:03

And I didn't see too much of that until he got sick, and he wrote a lot as he

30:08

was fighting cancer in his CaringBridge website, and it was really cool just

30:14

as a sister to read the thoughts that were going on inside of his head,

30:17

and my dad had something really cool to say about it he said when people

30:21

get squeezed, you kind of see what they're made out of, and and he said

30:25

Justin just kind of emanated from that. Goodness at the end and a tenderness and some of that may have been, you know, the

30:31

possibility of facing death I'm sure would cause one to reflect But he was a stubborn

30:39

fighter funny, I mean just Yeah, I'm definitely I was teasing with my sister in

30:47

law because I said I know it's February, and February is the month my brother

30:51

was born, I said, so I kind of just see Justin everywhere, and she goes, you see

30:55

the world through Justin colored lenses? I was like, I do!

30:58

In February, I do! And, Yeah, we were watching my niece's swim meet, and she's, you know, in her

31:05

in between meets, they're freezing, and it's like a sauna in there for all

31:09

of them. It's so hot. Ugh, so hot. Yeah, right.

31:12

And even if you come in layers, and you're stripped down to as little as possible,

31:16

but it's always in winter in Minnesota, so it's a thing, but anyway but his my

31:21

niece's daughter is got like this swim cap on and then in between laps or races

31:26

or whatever they're called meets I don't know any anyway in between when she's

31:29

swimming She's got this giant jacket on so all you can see is her face And I

31:33

said her face is still the same like you remember when she was just two years old

31:38

and she looked just like the spitting image of my brother and my sister in law

31:42

was so Bugged by it because she was just like, what is she going to look like me?

31:47

Like right now she just looks like Justin in a dress.

31:50

And I, and so I said, it might just be February, but it really

31:53

just looks like his face. She goes, no, it is.

31:56

And it was just really sweet. And then she had a moment that she shared that a couple of days

32:00

later where she had another kind of Justin colored lenses moment.

32:05

And I don't know, it's just. Grief is like beautiful because you get to remember your person and it's

32:13

also like the worst because it's reminding you that your person isn't

32:17

here and yeah, that part's tough.

32:21

Well, we appreciate you sharing and I think it's really a gift that you,

32:25

cause I know this is hard to talk about, so I just, I really appreciate

32:28

that you were willing to talk about it with us and help us be better

32:32

with our clients because I really.

32:35

We've used the word gift several times, but it is a gift to be able to

32:39

sit with someone and help them work through possibly the hardest part of

32:44

the grieving process, which is the physical things, because there's so much

32:47

emotion tied up in the physical things of, like you said about the vacuum.

32:52

Well, if we say goodbye to this vacuum, like mom is not in it.

32:55

You know that emotionally, but you know, or you know, it

32:59

logically, but you don't know it. Yeah. You don't know it emotionally.

33:03

And so those. Those things are very hard.

33:06

And so I think that is really to have someone ask you to help with

33:09

that, just treating them with the most tenderness possible.

33:12

And then also, if they're not acting that concerned about it, just make sure

33:17

that you're being really careful that it's not going to be a delayed, like you

33:21

said, you know, there's grief everywhere.

33:23

People process it very differently, but it's a gift to be able to

33:26

help people through that process. Yeah, and

33:29

I loved what you said, too, about checking in with the person if they

33:32

do start having some tears while you're working together, you know.

33:36

On the side of letting people have their own space.

33:39

And then when they come back, be like, you know, there was a moment there.

33:44

Do you want to be alone when that happens, or would you like me to sit next to you?

33:49

You know, a person with you and it's such a gentle way of asking that.

33:56

I don't think there's any possible way that could be construed as negative.

33:59

So just encouragement to yeah, just ask how to be the most supportive.

34:06

I love it. Well, thank you for sharing

34:09

with us. I really, I appreciate you very much.

34:11

Just like your client. I also appreciate you very much.

34:15

And where can people find you in the great wide, big world?

34:20

In the great wide world web you can find Clear Spaces Organizing on

34:25

Instagram as @clearspacesorganizing

34:28

you can find me on Facebook at Clear Spaces Organizing MN for Minnesota.

34:33

And the website is CreatingClearSpaces, three words, dot com.

34:38

Love it. And one of the things that makes me a little sad, people don't realize

34:43

this sometimes If the Twin Cities is a circle, Missi and I live on the exact

34:49

polar opposite sides of the circle. Like we could not be farther away from each other and still

34:55

be in the twin cities metro area.

34:57

So I don't get to see her in person as much as I would like to, but I

35:01

get to see her electronically a lot. And I'm very grateful that I know you and I'm grateful that

35:06

I can refer clients to you. And I'm grateful that I just need to text with you.

35:09

And I'm just, I'm grateful for all the things. So thank you for being my friend.

35:13

Thank you, too. I really enjoy you for many reasons.

35:16

Your quick wit and spunky sense of humor is one of my favorites.

35:20

Thank you. Well, not everyone enjoys it, but for the people that do, it's available 24 7.

35:28

Thank you so much. Thank you.