0:32

Hello and welcome to the Procurement Game Changers, the podcast for leaders that make

0:36

a difference. Today we'll talk about how to find the right profile for your procurement group.

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And to discuss that topic, I have the great pleasure to receive Aslan Akyol.

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Aslan is the Chief Purchasing officer and a member of the executive board as Stash.

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Aslan has 30 years of working experience with many companies.

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He's currently with Stash, a grocery delivery company that delivers groceries within 10

1:01

minutes to your doorstep with no minimum order value and at supermarket prices.

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We're glad to have you with us today.

1:09

So welcome to the show Aslan.

1:12

Thank you Hélène. Thank you for reminding me to your podcast and I hope I could contribute something meaningful

1:17

to it. I'm sure you will.

1:19

So Aslan, could you tell us what led you to procurement?

1:23

Okay. I think.

1:25

I guess probably my mother must have contributed somehow.

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She always negotiated everywhere I remember and whether she knew the language or not.

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I mean, she came to Switzerland more than 20 years [ago].

1:37

She was about 22 years old I guess.

1:40

And she was trying to negotiate down everything and that's probably why I applied at the end

1:47

as a young man in purchasing for my first job with engine material purchasing at Swiss

1:51

Technical Services, which then became SR Techniques.

1:57

I found it super interesting. And then that's why I guess after a few years I was able to take on larger projects.

2:03

And when I remember some examples were the tendering and negotiations for the Airbus

2:12

A340 fleet with Pratt & Whitney Engines and the Rolls Royce engines.

2:16

So that was really fun and I remember a lot of work and nights and the weekends and we

2:27

have chosen the Rolls Royce at the end for the A340 fleet of Swiss Air.

2:32

And also of course for me very interesting was the maintenance contract call for tenders

2:37

on the JT9D-7R4 J2 engines of the Boeing 747 at that time with KLM Dutch and Japan Airlines.

2:44

I met a lot of people and experienced different cultures from all over the world.

2:50

And nevertheless, I had to decide enough, 11 years.

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I'm gonna change my industry.

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And I went into telecommunication back in 1999 to diAx, a new player on the Swiss telecom

3:02

market, founded, roughly after the liberalization in 1997.

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And that was really because leaving a really deep marginal flight maintenance industry

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and then go to telecommunication was a little bit of culture shock for me.

3:25

Whereas before I had to fight for every cent and diAx people were talking millions as it

3:31

were cents. And that's why for me it was like: wow.

3:34

Everything was normal. A few millions, it's normal.

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And within a very short term of two years, I guess then almost more turnover than the

3:47

SR techniques of the 60 years in business.

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That was really for me, incredible at that time for a young person.

3:55

And I was responsible, there, for the network area.

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And my first, I'd say, my first big success was in the UMTS tender back in the year 2000.

4:08

I had to organize 60 half-day meetings with Nokia networks and Ericsson networks and that

4:15

was just jumping around. And at the end, I guess even asking me to set up a strategic purchasing department of

4:22

Sunrise after the merger back in 2001.

4:26

And the UMTS tender negotiated PowerPoint presentations, that was also something which

4:31

I really remember. So you were negotiating of millions, even billions which was only on PowerPoint and

4:41

nothing existed.

4:44

Everything was just on PowerPoint. And really exciting years.

4:49

Nevertheless I thought why not go try another industry again?

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And so I was really lucky to go after 11 years to Migros.

4:57

And Migros is the largest retailer here and private employer in Switzerland, approximately

5:04

a hundred thousand employees and 15 times the turnover of Sunrise.

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And the second culture shock for me at that time after the fast-moving and dynamic telecommunications,

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Migros was like a snail compared to Sunrise.

5:20

And it was starting the head of supplier and contract management then take over the strategic

5:25

procurement department in 2014.

5:28

And then transform it [in] 2019 by bringing it really on par level with the FMCG companies.

5:37

Because Migros had no clue about what is the profit per square meter and what is the profit

5:45

there. And that's why I guess what shelf meter, I mean sorry.

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And that's why we had to take new software into it, data analyst, business analyst and

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then actually transform the whole department and getting new people.

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And I guess that was quite good success at the end.

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So said I promised what I had to do back in 2019 and then I wanna do something really

6:13

fun. And now I landed at the startup Stash, the quick commerce industry in 2021 and now here

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I am. Yeah, thank you for sharing.

6:24

It's very interesting to see how from one industry to the next, there might be some

6:31

differences and, as a procurement leader, you have to learn about them and still you're

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still doing the same work. And that's something that we will discuss.

6:41

I'm riding our bicycle as well because the executive board has to go once a month, and

6:48

ride also, and deliver out all the orders from our customers

6:53

That's quite the difference.

6:55

So in the background you see actually our bikes and driving and then trying to find

7:01

within 10 minutes. So we have to feel also what's gonna happen really at the front.

7:06

That's interesting. So we're going back to the topic today and we'll start with the fact that compared to

7:12

other functions like Finance, Marketing, IT or HR, procurement is always fighting for

7:18

more visibility and/or attention from the executive committee.

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And indeed procurement is not well understood by executives.

7:25

It's not taught in school.

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The students there learn about Finance, Marketing, Strategy, even Technology but not procurement.

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So most executives, unless they are in the super supply chain function, don't know much

7:39

about what procurement does.

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And as a result, most companies don't hire the right profiles and they often end up with

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the wrong teams. So what are the mistakes to avoid?

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how do you find the right profile for procurement?

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That is what we're going to discuss about today with you Aslan.

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So first question. In your opinion, what are the pitfalls when hiring people for procurement roles?

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When I remember really back all these years now I guess for me it was always the typical

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phrase, in an advertising for a vacancy for example: there are many years of purchasing

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experience in this and that industry.

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For me it was all like, it's not a qualitative statement.

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Just as little somebody would say, I have leadership experience.

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Also this is not a qualitative statement.

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That's why that [it] was always a pitfall looking for people just being in that industry.

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And I have also some examples from men in the financial industry where I've seen that

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these people, unfortunately, had nothing to say there.

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But to be honest, on the other hand, the question is really only valid if purchasing really

8:55

has to be successful in that company.

8:58

Because we are somehow faced with the reality of companies.

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Like who decides really what success of purchasing is or should be really.

9:07

The executives who have little knowledge of procurement or the fear to lose decision power

9:13

and reputation on the market.

9:15

I have a very interesting example. I remember back a head of marketing communications, his name was Bert and he was really, I mean,

9:25

he was really throwing curses at us and said that he will hardly find a good job on the

9:31

market after we have negotiated to advertising agency fees down by 30% and we will be responsible

9:38

if he never finds a good job on the market and so on and so forth.

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So really interesting things.

9:44

What is the right profile for procurement? And I'm talking about soft skills, hard skill.

9:49

So what is that profile that you're looking for?

9:53

I guess the right profile can't be really advertised.

9:59

It is like an experienced interviewer could find the right person out from an unusual

10:04

but interesting CV for example, and also from face to face interviews.

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That's why I personally owned it.

10:13

HR only filtered the applications when it was really obvious but the person just wanted

10:18

to have an application for the job center.

10:20

So I actually I address but I want to be in purchasing or for example.

10:26

But my philosophy I guess was really when you know how to buy, you can buy everything.

10:34

Of course there are exceptions.

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I mean jobs where you need physical or natural skills, sense of taste and sensitive senses

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of smell when you are a coffee or cacao buyer or for example also when you have to buy ingredients

10:50

and flavors for example the perfume industry.

10:53

But I guess for me it was the mix of people.

10:57

It was also important and it's Meredith Belbin actually once described his nine roles of

11:04

good teams. And there was a resource, he called resource investigator, team worker, a plant planted

11:15

like seeding and growing.

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He wanted to evaluate, shape, implement whatever, complete or finisher.

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Actually I took it simply cause I'm not a professor.

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So I always had a vision person.

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Sometimes it was me, sometimes [it] was another person.

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And that work [is] very important. I also have a very good example.

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An [implementation] person being able to implement everything and also person who's analyzing

11:46

it, in a structured way. And of course, someone that is the good soul of the team.

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So the person who can always have the ability to connect all the team members even if they

11:58

are totally different. And I guess these are five roles you should have in a very successful purchasing team.

12:06

So you mentioned that person who is a networker.

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So that's interesting because in a previous podcast, we discussed about the importance

12:16

for procurement to build a network internally and with suppliers.

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So could you develop a little bit that, and you mentioned that you have an example so

12:24

maybe you can give that example to explain more of that role in particular.

12:31

I remember when I started back at Sunrise in the telecommunication industry, the key

12:37

account manager of a big telecom network infrastructure provider.

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That guy had, I'm probably remembering correctly, that guy had 216 direct contacts to the company.

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He knew everything much, much better than anybody in the company.

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He knew exactly what the CEO is doing, the CFO, what the CMO, the CTO, whatever.

13:06

And he knew what strategy we have.

13:09

So he knew and actually everything. And so how can it be that a supplier knows much more than anybody else in the company.

13:18

But that's why I said that's clear. He was an incredible professional networker.

13:23

But that's why I had one guy, my team then, which I hired coming from Siemens.

13:32

And that guy was like, he was everywhere.

13:35

Every party, always, you have to go because you have to control what our marketing guys

13:40

say, what our network people say. You have to go to supplier events and get information, collect them.

13:47

And from that time on, actually we add the best and the first knowledge what's gonna

13:54

happen on the market before anybody else in the company.

13:57

And that's why I guess it's important to have a network.

14:01

No it's interesting. It's like underground business intelligence.

14:04

If I hear correctly. Somehow quite

14:06

Well is this... So we see that you have several roles in your teams and then you need to identify, even

14:15

on paper, those profiles might look the same.

14:18

They might not fall into the same role and then at the end you need a team that makes

14:27

sense. Right.

14:29

That's what I hear from what you said. And I have a question though, and you mentioned that briefly before the fact that there are

14:36

limitations to on certain categories.

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So I would just expand that as this.

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Is it true for all categories beyond those limitations that you mentioned?

14:47

And then are there specificities in the profile that you seek for a company like yours today

14:53

for Stash for instance? Are there some specificities today?

14:59

I guess first of all, for us actually it is really important to see trends here to emphasize

15:07

how customers [behave]. And also as a startup actually you have to sell hope.

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Okay? So you never know when your money is away and the bird rate is too high, whatever.

15:17

But that's, for us, important.

15:19

Nevertheless. I guess, to the first part of your question about: is it all categories?

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As I mentioned before, also you can't really do that everywhere.

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Because when you are working in government, for example, it might be different.

15:33

When you're working in the financial industry, it might be different.

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When you're working in, for example, the tobacco industry, it might be different again.

15:42

That's why I guess you have to know really what industry you are.

15:46

What are, let's say, the most important points you have to consider for your own function?

15:54

And that's why you can't say, yeah, category, IT is everywhere the same, it's not.

16:00

So even it might be totally different when you are working in government.

16:04

Yeah. So it's kind of a foundation that you can build on.

16:11

Be clear that what is important actually is beyond the right profile on paper, is to make

16:20

sure that that person has the right mindset, the right attitude to procurement and then

16:26

that you have the right roles for your team in your industry, in your category, in your

16:31

type of company. That's what I understand.

16:33

So it's kind of: be flexible. There is not one fits all team that works for everyone.

16:38

And you said before, based on your goal, you want to be successful as a procurement team.

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That's kind of the ultimate question. I hope as procurement leaders we want to be successful, right.

16:50

I hope that's the case, but yeah, that's not always.

16:54

And some, sometimes actually it's really like the feeling you might have as an interviewer.

17:00

I remember a guy actually. He was harvesting kiwis and whatever in New Zealand and before he was working in a bar

17:10

as a waiter, wait no, it was a discotheque, right?

17:14

A disco, club and a nightclub.

17:16

He was working as a waiter and collecting money and saving money for his world trip,

17:22

whatever. And that guy, he could not speak English at that time.

17:27

So he went on a world tour without being able to speak English.

17:36

And I said like a guy actually on the world tour, getting back and finding always a solution

17:44

for every situation in his life or on his journey might be an interesting person.

17:49

So I invited him for an interview and that guy became one of our most creative executives

17:57

in my purchasing team. And still, he's still the most creative person I know actually working or used to work in

18:06

purchasing. Yeah, actually no, nobody probably would have invited him to an interview.

18:13

Really nobody. Yeah, I hear you.

18:16

You have to see really beyond the profile on paper.

18:20

So on that, I can totally, I agree with you totally.

18:25

I don't think that someone would have hired me in procurement if I said so before because

18:31

of my profile, but here I am.

18:34

So where do you find the right profiles for your procurement role?

18:38

Is it your network? Do you have spontaneous candidates, internet platforms, headhunters?

18:42

How do you go to find these profiles?

18:49

Oh, I probably, I used all of them really based sometimes on the time constraints you

18:57

have. I used headhunters.

19:00

[It] was the right choice.

19:03

I used sometimes thousands of interviews until you only have your right candidate for the

19:10

challenging job. I mean, I remember also there a guy, also the interesting example, he was actually unemployed

19:23

when I invited him for the interview.

19:27

He was unemployed. He came for a very, very small company.

19:31

Maybe 15 people.

19:34

We used to purchase I guess little screens or whatever for the car navigation system.

19:41

That said, if somebody has to struggle every day: we've been tiny and getting still never

19:49

nevertheless being able to get very good prices, very good conditions, whatever from Asia.

19:55

Although you are very small and you're struggling and doing and working and fighting.

20:01

I invited that guy. He was half Spanish half German, I guess.

20:07

And first interview was like, he was very nervous, but he seemed very clever, very smart.

20:15

The second interview I told him, I felt he was really nervous at the last time and he

20:21

said, Yeah, yeah, are you right?

20:25

And in the middle of the second interview I said, Hey, you are half Spanish right?

20:31

Yes. Okay what would you say if I say now: step on the table and dance flamenco for me, please.

20:39

And this immediate answer was like: Yes Mr. Akyol, if you dance with me, of course, I

20:45

will do it. And I said okay, you're hired.

20:50

So it depends [on] the attitude, how fast he can react and that's much more important

20:57

than somebody he would be totally astonished.

21:03

Very interesting question. That's why I guess it's really the feeling.

21:07

It's not clear what is the best choice.

21:10

Yeah. So that's why it's hard.

21:12

You have to go around, do interviews and meet people.

21:16

We said that before, it's not what they have on paper.

21:19

It's really the mindset, the attitude.

21:21

That's what I understand. And he's now really head of worldwide purchasing of a really big banking company, bank.

21:32

So the attitude was all it was.

21:35

So if for newcomers to the procurement community, and I know that there are quite a lot that

21:42

are listening to you and watching the podcast. Do you have any advice on how to grow as a buyer when you don't have the technical knowledge

21:50

of the product or the service that you're supposed to buy?

21:56

I guess remembering that, what Steve Jobs once said?

22:02

Stay hungry, stay foolish. Okay it's not the same but it's somehow valid also for the part of a buyer as well.

22:09

I always listen carefully and ask a lot.

22:13

The more you ask, the more you know.

22:16

Listen and ask the supplier, listen and ask your colleagues and sometimes listen and ask

22:21

yourself: am I doing really the right thing?

22:26

But I guess I found out that many people do not listen because they want to make the case

22:32

and do not ask because they then believe their competence will be questioned.

22:37

But I guess we found listening carefully and asking you don't learn that was somehow the

22:43

same way at school.

22:46

That's very true.

22:49

And I agree with you on that fact that you can learn every day, even if you are an established

22:57

leader or a seasoned professional, you can still learn even about your own subject matter

23:07

because things are changing, new methodologies are coming in.

23:11

So it's always an opportunity to learn more or educate yourself on things that you might

23:18

think it's not right. And then to discover it is all the other way around.

23:22

So I think this True

23:24

So besides recruitment, what is the most challenging task for a procurement leader?

23:31

For instance, what is the most challenging task for you right now in your current position?

23:38

I mean in the current position of course it is really, it's the money, okay.

23:43

It is to sell hope.

23:46

It is getting the, let's say, very good conditions or similar conditions like the big retailers,

23:56

or without having, even without having a percent, 1% of the volumes you can order.

24:05

I mean, this is something which is the most challenging.

24:08

How can you let the companies deliver to each of our warehouses we have everywhere in the

24:15

cities. And that's why I guess that's the most challenging part of it.

24:20

How to convince, how to convince the big players on the market to deliver attractive prices

24:26

to the products actually.

24:29

Yeah, That's my personal, very challenging.

24:33

No, no, I can relate to that.

24:36

Trust me. Get the big players to trust a small startup.

24:39

Yes, I can do that. Correct, correct.

24:42

And then to the first part of your question, actually the most challenging is probably

24:50

being accepted at eye level with the other executives.

24:53

Still, many people believe that everybody can buy as they do in the supermarket.

24:59

And there also, I remember a very good statement of a former CEO which I had.

25:07

I was like typical.

25:11

The typical: hey you play the back cop and I'm the good cop.

25:15

And that's why, I was in an elevator with the CEO and he told me that sentence as well:

25:21

Hey Aslan ya, how? Yeah, bad cop, good cop.

25:24

And then hey, I told him that he can ask his wife to play the bad cops if he wants and

25:31

I don't need to play. I know what I want and how to convince the suppliers.

25:36

He frowned slightly, smiled a little bit cheaply and the door of the elevator opened.

25:44

So that was a typical really example where while most of the executives have always the

25:50

same. And nobody would say that, for example, to a marketing guy, nobody would say that to

25:55

a financial guy or nobody would say that to a CIO for example.

26:01

It's always like everybody: [it] must be I'm easy.

26:04

I mean I'm going to the supermarket and buy.

26:06

Okay. That's why.

26:08

And seeing in the TV and Hollywood movies: bad cop, good cop and always that, okay, yes.

26:14

This is the most challenging to explain, or say to.

26:18

Having also that eye level.

26:20

I mean nobody would answer the CEO: Go and ask your wife.

26:26

Okay. So you have to have also this, let's say what you call it, a standing really.

26:32

And also believe in yourself in order to have such an answer to your own CEO

26:37

Oh yeah, absolutely. Now it's time for the takeaway.

26:40

So if there was one thing that you want our listeners to remember from that conversation,

26:47

what would that be?

26:52

I guess especially that's for the recruitment for procurement.

26:57

Don't believe what you read. Just believe what you personally see or hear or [the] reactions you are faced with in an

27:06

interview or a video call. So take your time to find the right role or right person for the position you need in

27:12

order to have an effective team and not just fill up the vacancy because you're looking

27:17

now already for eight weeks. Yeah.

27:20

that's a takeaway. It's better to wait.

27:23

Yeah. It's all about mindset, fit with your teams and yourself, and attitude.

27:30

I think it's a very good way to summarize what we've said in that conversation.

27:37

Thank you. Thank you for your time.

27:39

That was very interesting and I'm sure that our listeners will be, as you were mentioning

27:45

before, I think that they will feel that they are not losing their time.

27:50

Thank you. Hope so.

27:52

Okay. Thank you all.

27:54

Bye Now it's your turn to tell us about your experience and new challenges when hiring the right profiles

27:57

for your procurement group in the comment section.

27:59

Don't forget to subscribe if you want to be notified when a new episode is out.

28:05

Thank you for listening and I hope you enjoy this episode.

28:08

And if that's the case, don't forget to give us a thumbs up.

28:12

So happy sourcing

28:29

to you all and au revoir.