Episode Transcript
Transcripts are displayed as originally observed. Some content, including advertisements may have changed.
Use Ctrl + F to search
0:00
Support for this show comes from Atlassian. Atlassian
0:03
software like Jira, Confluence, and Loom help power
0:05
the collaboration needed for teams to accomplish what
0:07
would otherwise be impossible alone. Because individually, we're
0:09
great, but together, we're so much better. That's
0:12
why millions of teams around the world, including
0:14
75% of the Fortune 500, trust
0:17
Atlassian software for everything from space exploration and
0:19
green energy to delivering pizzas and podcasts. Whether
0:21
you're a team of two, 200, or two
0:23
million, Atlassian software is
0:26
built to help keep you connected and moving
0:28
together as one. Learn how to unleash
0:30
the potential of
0:32
your team at
0:34
atlassian.com. That's a-t-l-a-s-s-i-a-n.com.
0:36
Atlassian. Support
0:43
for the show comes from Schwab.
0:45
With Schwab investing themes, it's easy
0:47
to invest in ideas you believe
0:50
in, like online music and videos,
0:52
artificial intelligence, electric vehicles, and more.
0:54
Schwab's research process uncovers emerging
0:56
trends. Then their technology curates
0:58
relevant stocks into themes. Choose
1:01
from over 40 themes, buy all the stocks in
1:03
a theme as is, or customize
1:05
to better fit your investing goals, all in
1:07
a few clicks. Schwab investing
1:10
themes is not intended to be
1:12
investment advice or a recommendation of any
1:14
stock or investment strategy. Learn
1:17
more at schwab.com/thematic investing.
1:22
I'm Scott Galloway, and this is
1:24
No Mercy, No Malice. Ketamine
1:27
is suddenly everywhere. It's
1:29
also a groundbreaking medical treatment. And
1:32
for me, it reminded me
1:34
that what is essential is invisible to
1:36
the eye. Prof K,
1:39
as read by George Hahn. I
1:46
experienced ketamine therapy a few weeks ago,
1:48
and after discussing it on Pivot and
1:51
Prof G Pods, I've received
1:53
a great deal of inquiries from friends,
1:55
strangers, and media. I
1:57
wanted to let the experience settle. my
2:00
perception continues to
2:03
evolve, mature, unfurl,
2:06
and to take advantage of Daniel
2:08
Kahneman's advice to employ our slow
2:11
thinking. I was
2:13
also inspired to do some research on the
2:15
background and technology of the craft I traveled
2:17
on and the drug an
2:19
increasing number of people are using in
2:22
a variety of settings. Anyway,
2:25
here goes. The
2:29
foundation was developed as a surgical anesthetic. It
2:32
replaced PCP, yes, that
2:34
PCP, which was
2:37
effective but patients frequently
2:39
emerged from unconsciousness confused
2:41
and sometimes hallucinating, a
2:43
state known as emergence delirium.
2:48
Scientists modified the compound until they
2:50
hit on a variation that had
2:52
similar anesthetic properties but with less
2:54
risk of psychedelic side effects. First
2:58
synthesized in 1962 and
3:01
tested on Michigan State prisoners in 1964, ketamine
3:03
remains in
3:06
widespread use as an anesthetic
3:09
today. Ketamine
3:11
produces less emergence delirium than
3:14
PCP but it does have
3:16
that effect and in the
3:18
2000s, researchers started looking more
3:20
closely at the unusual phenomenon.
3:24
The dissociative state is
3:26
characterized by a sense of detachment
3:29
from reality and one's physical self
3:32
or even consciousness. Dissociation
3:35
can occur without drugs, psychotic
3:37
hallucination is a type of dissociation,
3:40
but the particular sense of detachment
3:42
from the self that ketamine produces
3:45
and other psychedelics such as psilocybin
3:47
and LSD can produce turns
3:50
out to be a potentially powerful tool.
3:53
It can enable personal growth as
3:56
well as enhance artistic and intellectual
3:58
expression. research
4:00
interest in this phenomenon opened the door
4:02
to a broader insight. While
4:05
the mechanism is not yet
4:08
fully understood, there is growing
4:10
evidence that at subanesthetic doses,
4:12
ketamine can help resolve serious
4:15
mental health conditions, including anxiety,
4:17
bipolar disorder, PTSD, and depression.
4:21
The most thoroughly studied and
4:24
accepted therapeutic use of ketamine
4:26
is for treating depression and,
4:29
in particular, treatment-resistant depression. Depression
4:33
is a modern scourge. It
4:35
afflicts an estimated 280 million
4:38
people worldwide, and nearly 18% of
4:40
U.S. adults report they
4:43
are currently in treatment for depression,
4:46
up from just 10% a decade ago. One
4:51
factors into two-thirds of suicides,
4:53
killing over 30,000 Americans per year. Antidepressants
4:58
are effective for many, but are
5:00
ineffective or bring major side effects
5:02
for others. Around
5:05
a third of patients suffer from treatment-resistant
5:07
depression. Over
5:09
the last decade, dozens of studies
5:11
have shown ketamine to be particularly
5:13
effective for this cohort. Similar
5:17
to other antidepressants like Prozac, ketamine
5:20
works by altering our brain
5:22
chemistry. It increases
5:24
the availability of substances the
5:26
brain uses for internal communication.
5:29
But beyond its direct chemical
5:32
impact, ketamine and other psychedelics
5:34
offers an additional dimension to the
5:37
treatment, the dissociative
5:39
state and the greatly enhanced
5:42
neuroplasticity that follows it. Physician
5:46
and other disorders are so
5:48
difficult to escape in part
5:50
because they change not just
5:52
our brains, but also our
5:54
minds. They influence
5:56
how we see the world in ourselves and
5:58
directly interfere with our own. our ability
6:00
to change. The
6:03
dissociative state induced by psychedelics
6:05
allows us to see ourselves
6:07
from a distance, to disentangle
6:09
our disorders from our identities.
6:13
Patients report being able to
6:15
face deeply buried traumas without
6:17
suffering and to acknowledge unhelpful
6:19
patterns of behavior without defensiveness.
6:23
Over the past fifteen years, interest
6:26
in psychedelic-assisted therapy has renewed
6:28
and accelerated. Michael
6:31
Pollan's 2018 book, How to
6:33
Change Your Mind, catalyzed popular interest,
6:35
but general awareness was just catching
6:38
up with the science. Because
6:41
ketamine can be more effective when combined
6:43
with therapy, some doctors
6:45
have opened specialized clinics where
6:47
ketamine experiences are integrated with
6:49
therapy and other treatments. A
6:52
few weeks ago, I visited
6:54
one. I
6:58
had been considering ketamine therapy for a while.
7:01
I struggled with anger and depression and thought it
7:03
might help. Also, I
7:05
was curious. Similar to
7:07
Burning Man, ketamine therapy is something I have
7:09
planned on doing for several years, but
7:12
I always find an excuse to not go there. I
7:16
was wary that something unwelcome would surface.
7:19
Before trauma or demons lie in
7:21
my subconscious, I've managed to mostly
7:23
suppress them, and I'm down with
7:25
that. Let sleeping dogs lie. But
7:29
here we go. At
7:32
Kooia Wellness in Austin, the first
7:34
step was a detailed interview about
7:36
my medical history. The
7:39
onboarding process was both comforting, they
7:41
take this seriously, and
7:43
a bit disconcerting. See above.
7:46
This is serious. I
7:48
was approaching the experience as a more
7:50
cerebral form of the Space Mountain ride.
7:53
Except at Disney World, the screening is only that
7:55
you'd be at least 3 feet 8 inches tall.
7:58
If you had to meet with a doctor, I'd be happy to talk to you. and
8:00
go over your medical history at the beginning
8:02
of the line, you'd be more pensive while
8:04
you waited your turn to ride. The
8:07
clinic felt like the Austin Regional
8:10
Office of Birkenstock, or the HQ
8:12
of a successful scented candle manufacturer.
8:15
Groovy, but well-funded. The
8:18
first thing you encounter is a purposefully
8:20
distressed shoe cubby that sets the tone,
8:23
as everyone is barefoot. My
8:25
guide, John, was out of
8:27
central casting to lead a yoga retreat, or
8:30
an angry professor's ketamine trip. He
8:33
was about as chill as one could be
8:35
while still maintaining an air of competence. I
8:39
had an additional intake with a medical
8:41
director, an attractive woman in her sixties.
8:44
I had trouble focusing for the first few
8:46
minutes, as she had a Tammy Wynette-like wig.
8:49
It looked good, but she could have been the
8:52
offspring of Sophia Loren and Beyoncé. I
8:55
immediately summed her up as a rich
8:57
housewife who, after the kids left, got
8:59
bored, depressed, decided to get a degree,
9:02
and convinced some rich investors to fund
9:04
her adventures in ketamine. But
9:07
here's the thing. I
9:09
was wrong. Dr.
9:11
Sheila Newsom was the
9:13
captain of the baseball team at West Point,
9:16
served her country for four years as
9:18
a paratrooper, got a medical
9:21
degree from the University of Texas, and
9:23
built a hospital in Africa. At
9:27
sixty-three, Dr. Newsom
9:29
underwent gender transformation and answered
9:31
a call to help people
9:33
suffering from suicidal ideation via
9:35
ketamine therapy. Jesus
9:38
Christ, an amazing athlete who served her
9:40
country and later in life felt a
9:42
calling to be her true self while
9:45
helping others. So
9:47
the first unlocks from ketamine were
9:49
before the ketamine. I
9:52
am judgmental, and there
9:54
are so many remarkable Americans. Just
9:57
as grit is a combination of resilience and
9:59
forgiveness. I'd like to think
10:02
American is a mix
10:04
of opportunity and acceptance. The
10:06
two are force multipliers for one
10:09
another. I worry
10:11
that America, for the first time
10:13
in our history, is becoming less
10:15
accepting, less American, but that's another
10:17
post. The
10:19
trip room was what you would expect to
10:22
find in the home of a Gen Xer
10:24
who, after his kids are asleep, takes an
10:26
edible and retreats to a room with an
10:28
oversized sectional, a flat screen and no sharp
10:30
edges, speaking for a friend. Dr.
10:34
Newsom joined John and me in the
10:36
opium den, grasped our hands,
10:39
and prayed, which I
10:41
found oddly comforting. For
10:44
some reason I requested a weighted blanket. I'd
10:47
never used one nor really knew what it was,
10:49
but it just felt right. John
10:53
and I did some breath work,
10:55
and then Dr. Newsom injected me
10:58
with eighty-seven milliliters of ketamine. Shit
11:02
got real, or unreal, pretty
11:05
fast. I felt heavy,
11:08
but not uncomfortable, wary but not
11:10
anxious. With the
11:12
blindfold on, I was in the sphere,
11:15
Vegas immersive theater, only this was to
11:17
the sphere what the sphere is to
11:19
a black and white television. Walls
11:24
of red numbers and symbols bumping
11:26
into and absorbing each other as
11:28
the sheets of imagery expanded and
11:31
contracted as if they were breathing.
11:34
The visuals took on a
11:36
sentient feel and turned to
11:39
emotion and experiences that then
11:41
liquefied and poured over my
11:43
consciousness. I immediately
11:45
felt a sense of wonder for
11:47
a drug that could inspire this
11:49
depth of hallucination, this
11:51
fast, without the feeling of being
11:53
out of control. Then
11:56
things got weird. Imagine
12:00
your brain is a
12:02
tightly wound knot of
12:05
experiences, emotions, visuals, and
12:07
neural pathways your consciousness.
12:11
Ketamine loosens the knot and
12:13
unfurls everything, including
12:15
material that's there but
12:18
not previously visible. The
12:21
strands of the knot then separate from
12:23
your physical self and all things. People
12:27
have described it as floating through space. For
12:29
me, it felt like a
12:31
different dimension where there was nothing physical,
12:34
just my being. My
12:36
thoughts and perceptions were untethered
12:38
from any organic or inorganic
12:41
material. A
12:43
friend who several years ago urged me
12:45
to try K therapy described it best.
12:48
It's as if your life is an
12:51
ocean and you can see some stuff below
12:53
the surface but it's not clear. K
12:56
drains the ocean so you can
12:59
walk along the floor and see
13:01
everything in sharp relief. Recognizing
13:04
that my senses and emotions,
13:07
i.e. perception, were the only
13:09
real thing was overwhelming and
13:12
for a few moments unsettling.
13:16
How was my perception formed? Jesus, this
13:18
is me. And what does me really
13:20
mean? Similar
13:24
to when I was a kid on a long
13:26
road trip with my mom, I'd ask myself over
13:28
and over who am I, who am I, and
13:31
then feel faint. I'd
13:33
tell my mom, she'd tell
13:35
me not to think about that kind of thing. Ketamine
13:39
doesn't care what your mom says.
13:43
Trying to wrap my conscience around
13:45
itself and understand my being, my
13:48
soul felt overwhelmed.
13:52
Or panicked like being too high,
13:54
been there. Just
13:57
overwhelmed. A
14:00
couple images kept resurfacing. First
14:03
and foremost, I have specific pictures
14:05
of my boys that I'm fond of and
14:07
they appeared square in front of me. Except
14:10
they were in 4K, high def. I,
14:14
similar to most parents, think
14:16
my boys are the most beautiful things
14:18
ever created. The
14:20
depth of commitment and love I feel
14:22
for them felt impossible.
14:26
Impossible in a good way. As
14:29
if it was a secret that would only be
14:31
revealed to them when they had kids. The
14:35
images were just so illuminant and
14:38
the emotions so strong. Their
14:41
mother appeared as well and
14:43
she produced entirely different emotions. At
14:46
first a surprise, who is this? Then
14:48
a sense of relief and joy. When
14:52
I was 10, my only hobby
14:54
was skateboarding. I bought a
14:56
skateboard at Big Five for $3. It
14:59
was a piece of pressed balsa wood with steel wheels.
15:02
We had to check our skateboards in at
15:04
the beginning of school to the principal's office
15:06
and then retrieve them when school was over.
15:09
Anthony Fadal and his friends would mock me
15:12
and my board when he and his crew
15:14
picked up their dogtown and zephyr boards. My
15:18
mom's boyfriend, Terry, was
15:20
leaving on Sunday and left
15:22
a UPS box on the dining table. In
15:25
the box was a new Bond
15:28
skateboard with AC500
15:30
trucks and Kona wheels. This
15:34
board cost $45 which
15:37
might have well meant $45 million for
15:39
my mom and me. The
15:42
feeling of surprise and joy
15:44
when I realized this was
15:46
mine was similar to
15:48
the emotion that registered when the image of my
15:50
wife came into view. This
15:53
relationship is mine? Really?
15:58
I also had some anxiety around the table. things that
16:00
were on my mind, bothering me. I
16:03
don't think K is good at sorting and these things
16:05
were only there as they were present at the moment.
16:08
I had said something stupid at a conference earlier
16:10
in the week on stage and had been an
16:12
asshole to someone the same week. They
16:14
both kept coming up and confronting me. There
16:19
is an increasing body of research
16:21
showing that ketamine therapy can do
16:23
wonderful things for people suffering from
16:25
trauma, depression, and addictions. However,
16:28
I would not
16:30
recommend doing this recreationally
16:33
or outside a therapeutic environment.
16:36
It is intense. What
16:40
has struck me is the benefits of
16:42
the session have mostly occurred well after
16:44
the session as I process the
16:47
experience and what to take from it. This
16:50
is why several sessions done in a licensed clinic
16:53
in conjunction with a therapist is
16:55
a best practice. Recreational
16:58
use is spiking and
17:00
while it will be a light diversion for
17:02
most users, ketamine can
17:05
be addictive and, when abused, can
17:07
cause serious physical harm, including
17:10
bladder infections and renal failure.
17:13
Ketamine purchased from mail order pharmacies
17:15
or bought on the street is
17:17
of uncertain provenance and
17:20
when sold in powdered form is
17:22
often cut with other substances, including
17:24
fentanyl. During
17:27
my trip there was nothing new, no
17:30
discovery, just clarification and
17:32
illumination. I know
17:34
I love my boys and that their mom
17:36
is impressive, but this
17:38
was a chance to bask in
17:40
those emotions and register real reward.
17:44
Also, in the two weeks since the
17:46
therapy, I haven't had a drink. First
17:49
time I've gone this long since college. It's
17:53
not that I had a revelation that I drink too
17:55
much. Again, I knew that. I
17:57
have just sort of lost the taste for it.
18:00
We'll see. Again, the majority
18:02
of the benefit has been post-therapy processing
18:04
the experience, what I take from it
18:07
and how it will change my behavior
18:09
and perspective moving forward. Some
18:12
thoughts. Feeling
18:14
the depth of emotion for my boys gives
18:16
me a sense of purpose. I
18:19
love the notion of surplus value,
18:22
that you become a man when you add more
18:25
than you take. Instead
18:27
of a spiritual profitability, if you will,
18:30
my purpose is to love my
18:32
boys and others more than I've
18:34
been loved. I'm
18:37
almost there and it gives me a
18:39
sense of peace about aging and dying.
18:41
Note, not planning to do this anytime
18:43
soon. I used
18:45
to be terrified of death and
18:48
feeling purpose takes shape and
18:51
that it's within reach provides comforting
18:53
permission to leave. As
18:56
they say in the Navy, quote, fair
18:58
winds and following seas, we
19:01
have the watch. Unquote. I've
19:04
also come to the conclusion that the
19:07
quality of your relationships isn't
19:09
a function of that person, but
19:11
of you. Specifically,
19:14
your willingness to lean
19:16
into the relationship and
19:18
not keep score. For
19:21
most of my life, relationships have
19:23
been transactional and I
19:25
was either on the right side of the ledger,
19:27
getting more than I receive, or
19:29
dissatisfied. I
19:32
realize that my role is, among
19:34
those close to me, to provide
19:36
witness to their life, for
19:39
them to know that I notice, to
19:42
rescue them from any doubt that they matter,
19:44
that when good or bad things happen to
19:47
them, that I notice. Their
19:50
life happens and registers as
19:53
a decent man who loves them
19:55
provides witness. a
20:00
ring on a necklace inscribed with a quote
20:02
from one of my favorite childhood movies, The
20:04
Little Prince. Quote, what
20:07
is essential is
20:09
invisible to the eye. Unquote.
20:14
When I called my wife after the therapy and told
20:16
her she was a skateboard and why,
20:18
there was a long silence on
20:20
the other end. However,
20:23
I knew what she was feeling. We
20:26
didn't need to hear or see each other. It
20:30
didn't matter, as the
20:32
essential is invisible.
20:39
Life is so rich. Support
20:53
for this podcast comes from Smartwater. Can
20:55
I get a little more from every sip? Smartwater
20:57
Alkaline doesn't just taste crisp and pure, it's
21:00
loaded with everything you need to perform at
21:02
your best, whether you're running marathons or boardroom
21:04
meetings. Elevate how you hydrate and
21:06
pick up a Smartwater Alkaline today. To
21:08
learn more, visit drinksmartwater.com.
Podchaser is the ultimate destination for podcast data, search, and discovery. Learn More