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1:30

My view of social media is nuanced, hopefully, but when I worry about

1:32

it, one

1:34

of my biggest worries is the way in

1:36

which it shapes norms for teenagers. Teens will start to have a

1:38

different understanding of norms around those things and

1:41

then will change their behavior. And so it

1:43

matters what gets mainstreamed. On

1:51

this episode of the Psychology Podcast, I chat with the

1:54

clinical psychology Lisa DeMoure about the emotional lives of teenagers.

2:00

teenagers. Lisa dispels a

2:02

number of myths, such as the idea that

2:04

emotion is the enemy of reason, that

2:06

difficult emotions are bad for teens, and

2:09

that with their amped up emotions,

2:11

teens are psychologically fragile. She

2:14

puts a lot of nuance and compassion

2:16

into the discussion and shows us that

2:18

emotional does not mean fragile. And

2:20

she also offers the best evidence based

2:22

ways to support teens through their emotional

2:25

and mental journey. I've been

2:27

willing to have this conversation with Lisa for quite a

2:29

while, and I'm so glad we finally

2:31

made it happen. This was a very

2:33

informative episode, and I'm excited to share it with

2:35

you all. So without further

2:37

ado, I bring you Lisa Demore. Hi,

2:40

Lisa, how are you? I

2:43

am good. I am good. And we have a good

2:45

mutual friend in Annie Murphy Paul, who's one

2:47

of my favorite people. Oh,

2:49

I love that. Yeah, so just for

2:51

our viewers who want a little jeopardy

2:53

trivia, Annie Murphy Paul was the first

2:55

ever guest of the Psychology Podcast 10

2:57

years ago, coming up on 10 years

3:00

and we have our 10th year anniversary

3:02

this year. Good choice.

3:05

Yes, yes, I adore her. So

3:08

I have been willing to talk to you

3:10

for a long time. Yeah, I love your

3:12

work. And it's just I

3:15

just want to have a really nuanced, compassionate discussion today,

3:17

because I think there's just so

3:20

many competing theories out there right

3:22

now about what's wrong with children,

3:25

especially teens. And

3:27

I want to just know what the truth is. I

3:29

want to know what's going on.

3:31

What's going on? You see alarming

3:33

headlines basically on a daily basis

3:36

about the adolescent mental health crisis.

3:38

Now, that can make it terrifying

3:41

for a parent, you know, thinking about

3:43

conceiving. So what are your

3:45

thoughts? Do you have any thoughts on this topic?

3:49

Just a few. Just a few. I just want

3:51

to rest for a minute though on your phrase,

3:53

nuanced and compassionate, right? I mean, that man,

3:56

oh man, if we can accomplish that, I will

3:58

be. I feel like it's a good

4:00

day's work. You too. Boy,

4:03

oh boy. Okay, so I have cared for teenagers

4:05

for my whole professional life. I got my PhD

4:07

in 96. Of course, you

4:10

know, I was working clinically before that time,

4:12

so I'm pushing 30 years of

4:14

caring for teenagers. And

4:16

let me just start by saying, teenagers have

4:18

never been easy. It has never been easy

4:20

to be a teenager or to raise a

4:23

teenager. So it's not like all was easy

4:25

going, and then the pandemic came and made

4:27

a mess of everything. That's never been the

4:29

case. But the

4:32

pandemic did make things harder for teenagers

4:35

without question, harder for the people around

4:37

them without question, and

4:39

we are now dealing with the

4:41

aftermath of that. So

4:44

it is a hard time in

4:46

raising adolescents, and it's the combined

4:48

effects of the natural challenges

4:51

that have always been part of being

4:53

a teenager, layered with

4:55

the realities of the historical moment in

4:57

which we find ourselves. And I think

4:59

we really wanna think about it in

5:01

that way, that we are

5:03

dealing with the aftermath of the

5:06

pandemic, political polarization at a level

5:08

that I don't remember in my 53 years, climate

5:14

concerns that teenagers rightly

5:16

take very seriously, changes how they think about

5:18

themselves in the world. I mean, there's a

5:20

lot happening here that

5:22

impacts family life, but goes way beyond

5:24

the scope of what we have normally

5:26

dealt with in family

5:28

life. Well,

5:31

yeah, and it's so interesting because

5:33

there's different perspectives on that matter.

5:36

So I wanna know like taking stripping politics

5:38

aside, to what extent do

5:40

you think we are causing some

5:44

of this anxiety in teenagers versus the

5:46

other view, which is like they're

5:48

understandably anxious, they're understandably,

5:51

and we're more the healers than

5:53

the instigators. Okay.

5:57

There's a lot there. I dumped in

5:59

a defense. little questions that have 14 ramifications.

6:01

So let me just just on the climate

6:03

then for a minute. In

6:06

some ways, I think you could say

6:08

that the climate crisis has to do

6:10

with a failure of anxiety, right? If

6:12

we had gotten appropriately anxious about this

6:15

at scale decades ago,

6:17

we would be in a different spot. You

6:19

know, anxiety is here to help us to help us pay attention,

6:22

make a change, you know, and so I think there's

6:24

sort of an interesting conversation

6:26

to be had about anxiety

6:28

and climate and what

6:31

it means now, what it would have meant, you

6:33

know, decades ago to really get on this. Okay,

6:36

but then the question of does

6:38

talking all this feeling talk does it make things

6:40

worse for kids? I think that's a really, really

6:43

critical question. It's an interesting question. And

6:45

I think it's one that doesn't need to be

6:47

politicized. I think it's just a really fascinating question.

6:51

And I think

6:53

there's a yes in there. And

6:56

what I mean by that is

6:58

that if we are misunderstanding feelings,

7:02

then the conversation around them can actually be

7:04

more harmful to kids than helpful. And

7:07

what I mean by that is that

7:09

we are up against the circulating definition of

7:11

what mental health is, which is

7:13

that mental health is about feeling good, which

7:16

it is not. Mental health

7:18

is not about feeling good or calm or relaxed

7:20

or at ease. This

7:22

is all around us as

7:25

a framing, it happens in traditional media,

7:27

it happens in social media. And

7:29

then it creates conditions where

7:31

adults and teenagers have

7:34

understandable levels of discomfort, and then suddenly

7:36

have a lot of anxiety about the

7:38

possibilities that they have a mental health

7:40

concern. That's not

7:42

helping us. So what

7:45

I try to put forward in my work is

7:47

a different definition, one

7:50

much more true to how we think as psychologists,

7:52

which is that mental health is about two things, having

7:55

feelings that fit the context you're in,

7:57

and then managing those feelings well. So,

8:01

what I'd like to think is that definition actually kind

8:03

of shoots

8:05

down the middle. Bull

8:08

says... How dare you? I

8:10

am. It feels like

8:12

you're shamed if you're not extreme these days.

8:15

I know, I know. Or another

8:17

way to put it is, you're on the right track if

8:19

everyone's annoyed with you. I also sort of feel like

8:21

that's the way to do it. I have a cup.

8:24

I have a coffee cup that says something similar. Yeah.

8:27

It's true. So, I

8:29

think the way I

8:31

like to walk up to it, which is really, as you

8:33

know, in line with how we think as researchers

8:36

and clinicians, is feelings

8:39

are important and negative

8:41

feelings are part of life, but

8:43

they don't need to stop us in

8:45

our tracks. They do not need to

8:48

always be taken as a sign of

8:50

a mental health concern, and that really

8:52

what matters is coping, and coping well

8:54

with the range of human emotions. So

8:57

they don't need to paralyze us. They don't need

8:59

to sink us. And

9:01

yet they shouldn't be ignored either. I

9:04

love that. I mean, you talk about some...

9:09

What's the word I'm looking for? Myths. That's

9:11

the word I'm looking for. How do you say myths?

9:15

You talk about some big

9:17

ones, and there is

9:19

this kind of notion that teenagers

9:22

are just so emotional, and that's

9:25

the problem. But again,

9:27

nuance and compassion. You

9:29

argue that emotion is not necessarily the enemy

9:31

of reason. Can you elaborate a

9:33

little bit more? Sure. Sure.

9:36

So, in my book, I credit a dear colleague of mine,

9:39

Terri, and she's referenced in the

9:41

back, Terri Tobias, who is another

9:44

clinician, and she has this fabulous metaphor.

9:46

And what she says is, we

9:48

should think of emotions as being like one

9:50

member of our personal board of directors, that

9:53

we all have a personal board of directors that helps

9:56

us run our lives. On

9:58

that board are our interests, our... obligations,

10:01

logistical considerations, you

10:03

know, financial considerations, all sorts of things, and

10:06

our feelings, how we feel about things.

10:09

And the way Terry tells it is, you know,

10:12

they have a seat on the board, but they

10:14

don't share the board, and they very rarely have

10:16

the deciding vote. So,

10:19

again, a nuanced view

10:22

that doesn't throw feelings out or put them

10:24

in church, but says they

10:27

get to weigh in on

10:29

how we live our lives. It matters how we

10:31

feel about things. They're actually

10:33

rich with data, and

10:35

we want to treat them as such, but they

10:38

shouldn't be calling the shots. Well,

10:42

I do love that, especially in a

10:44

university setting. And

10:46

there's still teenagers in university setting in

10:48

the first couple years. And as a

10:51

college professor, you know, I, I've noticed

10:54

an increasing level of entitlement. And

10:58

that can't be good. It can't

11:00

be good. It can't be well,

11:03

and especially if the form it takes

11:05

is I'm uncomfortable, everything has to stop

11:07

until I'm comfortable. Exactly. Exactly.

11:10

And one of the ways I'm talking

11:12

about this a lot with the people I care for

11:14

is, is the situation uncomfortable

11:17

or unmanageable? Because sometimes

11:19

it's unmanageable. And if it is, then we need

11:21

to make a big change. But

11:23

to offer uncomfortable as the

11:25

alternative to unmanageable, as

11:28

opposed to saying either it's

11:30

unmanageable, or it's entirely comfortable, I

11:32

think lets us move forward. You

11:35

know, it's such a tough line

11:37

to know, like, when

11:40

it when does it go into the realm

11:42

of coddling versus compassion? I've

11:44

had this discussion with Jonathan Haidt

11:46

and Greg Luhyanov, we did a

11:49

discussion at the Comedy Cellar in New York

11:51

about this with Ricky Schlawd as well. And

11:53

I asked that question. Because to

11:55

me, sometimes I feel like the lines are

11:57

hazy, sometimes some things that people are

11:59

like, Oh, we're coddling, we're coddling." I'm like, no,

12:01

I think that's just caring. But then

12:03

there are clear examples to me of coddling.

12:06

But it's just there's no, it's not objective

12:08

science. No.

12:11

And I think, you know,

12:13

I love, you think big and you think about big

12:15

ideas and big ways. And I think one of the

12:19

traps that one risks

12:22

falling into with that, you

12:24

know, in these conversations is to try to come up

12:26

with a one-size-all solution. Well, that's the

12:28

answer. That's the good answer. So

12:32

sometimes, I mean, any, you can come up with

12:34

an example of anything that you

12:36

want, right? And you can, there's certainly

12:38

coddling examples and there's certainly deeply compassionate

12:40

examples. Yeah. Yeah. But the question is,

12:42

who's the person in front of you? And

12:45

what do they need? And

12:49

what do they need to move forward in their own

12:51

lives? And that

12:54

is going to depend on the moment,

12:56

the person, the data, the specificities of

12:59

it. And so, they're

13:02

interesting theoretical arguments, but I don't think they

13:04

actually give us answers that you can

13:06

take to working

13:08

with people, specific people.

13:12

But I do see some really nice linkages

13:15

between some of the things you're saying and

13:17

some of the things in the coddling of

13:19

the American mind, such as difficult

13:21

emotions are not necessarily something to

13:24

immediately shun from the kingdom. But

13:26

there is an added level of

13:28

nuance here, I think, is really

13:30

interesting because you say, even

13:33

with their amped-up emotion, that doesn't always translate

13:35

to fragility. But that's something that stood out

13:37

to me personally, is I was like, that's

13:39

a really good point. I think that we

13:41

have this kind of societal connotation

13:44

that to be strong means to

13:46

not have your emotions, that

13:48

you're fragile if you're emotional. But those

13:51

two don't necessarily go together, right? No,

13:54

but again, like just to say

13:56

it, people

13:58

do mistake emotions. emotional

14:00

for fragile. Like that

14:03

is an equation that exists in the world, which

14:06

is highly unnecessary that you

14:09

can be a deeply emotional person while

14:12

being totally sturdy in terms of your ability to move

14:14

through your day and do the things you need to

14:16

do. And again, it's really

14:19

about our posture toward emotion,

14:22

right? Whether it's natural to

14:25

life, waves that

14:27

rise and crest and recede almost

14:29

always on their own, or whether

14:32

we treat them as fires that need to be stamped out

14:34

as quickly as possible. Absolutely.

14:37

Absolutely. In

14:42

terms of as a psychologist, where

14:44

are the lines? And I know I feel like whenever

14:46

I say lines, you're going to say everything's contextual, but

14:49

give me something more in the sense that

14:52

how do you know when professional help

14:54

is required versus when a

14:57

certain situation is something where we

14:59

have a discussion with the teenager

15:01

and say, look, what you're experiencing

15:03

is actually normal human emotions. Because

15:05

I do fear we're living

15:08

in a style right now, we're attributing everything

15:10

to like we need to immediately get your

15:12

professional help. 100%.

15:14

And there is a clear line. Actually, there are some

15:16

parameters I can easily lay down.

15:21

Okay. So the way I like to think

15:23

about it is... My autism really requires this,

15:25

so thank you. My autism

15:27

really requires some clear... No.

15:30

And actually, your autism and also anyone who's

15:32

trying to get through their day needs at

15:34

some point, nail this down somewhere. Tell me

15:36

where the line is so that I know...

15:38

Give me rules. Give me rules. Absolutely.

15:41

I can give you rules. So

15:44

the way I like to give rules is in

15:46

my when to worry approach to things. So in

15:48

my first commercial book, Untangled, at the end of

15:51

every chapter, I have a when to worry section.

15:53

So the first part of each chapter is all

15:55

the contextual stuff that comes up with teenagers. And

15:58

now it's time to worry if you see this. this and this.

16:01

So in the generic, when to worry

16:03

about a teenager. I want

16:06

adults to be worried not, as

16:08

we've been saying, if their mood goes up and down,

16:10

that is adolescence. But if

16:12

their mood goes to a dark or

16:15

concerning place and stays

16:17

there. And stays there,

16:19

I mean, depending on the kid, 24 hours, 36 hours,

16:22

the teenager's moods, as you and I would say,

16:24

it should be highly labile all over the place.

16:27

We worry about the kid whose mood is low, cranky,

16:30

blank, nasty for

16:32

an extended period of time. So that's one thing to

16:35

be concerned about. Another

16:37

thing to be concerned about is what I

16:39

call costly coping. So this

16:41

is the not managing feelings. So

16:45

they may be coping, but

16:47

by abusing substances, or

16:49

they may be coping by self harming.

16:53

And so it's all coping, but there's

16:55

better and worse coping. And if they're

16:57

relying on destructive coping, that's

16:59

a problem. And then

17:01

of course, if there's any question about safety,

17:04

right, if there's worries that they might harm

17:06

themselves or someone else, then of course,

17:08

it's time to get that kid to safety. And,

17:13

you know, those are the rules.

17:15

Those are the rules in terms of when to

17:17

worry. But everything up to

17:19

that is probably the rich

17:21

and spicy business of being or raising

17:23

a teenager. Yeah. Great

17:26

point. I mean, just even just saying sometimes like,

17:29

you know, what you're experiencing your

17:31

emotional volatility is, is quite

17:34

a normal part of being into I mean,

17:36

I experienced your father experience through your mother,

17:38

whatever it is. And, you know,

17:41

we all you know, been

17:43

through it called hormones. Hormones

17:46

are a thing. It's a real thing. I think

17:50

there's a certain empowerment

17:52

to also validating experience

17:54

and normalizing some of

17:57

it. But, you know, with the exemption

17:59

of a lot of things you just mentioned, which I

18:01

think it's very, very important. So thank you so much

18:04

for outlining that. There's,

18:07

you know, it's a controversial area when you talk

18:09

about gender differences. Actually, interestingly enough, it's

18:12

more controversial if you use the phrase sex differences.

18:14

I find if

18:16

you use the phrase gender differences, it's not

18:18

as controversial. Did you know? Yeah. And

18:21

so you use the phrase gender differences, so you're safe. Yeah,

18:25

you're safe. But I, it's interesting

18:28

in your book, some of the

18:30

ones that you outline are the most

18:32

salient that you've noticed in your own

18:34

work. Can you kind of outline that

18:36

for our listeners, the most salient ones? Sure.

18:39

So, you

18:42

know, it's so interesting, as you know, to write

18:44

a book, because you go in with one idea, and

18:46

then you start mucking around in the research, and you

18:48

come out with better understanding, and

18:50

maybe not the same understanding that you went

18:52

in with. And so my

18:55

goal in this section was to really lay out

18:57

what the data are on gender

19:00

differences in terms of the expression of

19:02

emotion. Because this

19:04

is where the data sit, it is a

19:06

very binary approach to gender. That's what the

19:08

data, that's the data we have now. So

19:10

that's what I'm summarizing. That's true.

19:15

And one critically, two critically important things

19:17

to say before we get into the nitty

19:19

gritty of it. First of all,

19:23

these are broad generalizations, they do

19:25

not apply to any one

19:28

kid. Second of

19:30

all, when we think about things

19:33

like this, when we think about gender and

19:37

the expression of emotion, we want

19:39

to remember, this is all almost

19:41

entirely a function of socialization.

19:45

Very, very little of what we

19:47

would consider a gender difference in

19:49

emotion is grounded in biology.

19:51

This is how we teach kids to

19:53

do emotion, whether they are boys or

19:56

girls. And so that's like, you

19:58

can't walk forward without first

20:00

acknowledging those two key points. Okay,

20:03

so then what do we find? When we go into the

20:05

literature, what do we find? What

20:08

we find is that bluntly,

20:10

girls enjoy a very wide emotional

20:13

highway with many lanes. They can

20:15

be sad and anxious and vulnerable

20:17

in all sorts of ways. They

20:20

also express anger and frustration and

20:23

they are not much constrained in

20:26

terms of the emotions they are culturally

20:28

allowed to express. Boys,

20:31

on the other hand, in our culture are

20:33

given a two-lane highway of permissible

20:36

emotions and then I'm going to come back and

20:38

trouble this because I think there's more to

20:40

this story, much more. But

20:42

as the research says right now,

20:44

boys are culturally allowed

20:47

to express anger or pleasure

20:49

at someone else's expense. Those are

20:51

the two permissible

20:54

emotions for boys. Okay, here's

20:56

my big giant fat asterisk on that that,

20:59

and this is thinking I've done post-submitting

21:01

this book and writing this book, you

21:03

know, my thinking is preceded. I'm

21:06

like, okay, that may be true in

21:08

many domains but we also need to

21:10

acknowledge that boys have all the feelings

21:12

and express all the feelings in

21:16

some circumscribed domains. So for example

21:18

around sports, either as a viewer

21:20

or a participant. A

21:23

lot of boys use the universe

21:25

of sports to cry, be excited,

21:27

be disappointed.

21:29

I mean like a much more

21:31

colorful and rich emotional experience than

21:34

we're seeing other places. And

21:36

so I started to think it's not really

21:38

fair to say guys only have these two

21:40

emotions or guys only express these two emotions

21:43

if we can point to domains and especially

21:45

I mean the Kelsey brothers right, Kelsey brothers

21:47

right now are like bust in this wide

21:49

open. It was like tears all the time

21:51

in a highly permissible way. If we

21:55

see other areas where we do see a much

21:57

more rich emotional

21:59

life. I think the question more

22:01

becomes why are those emotions not

22:03

allowed in other domains, not why don't

22:05

guys have these emotions? Oh,

22:09

what a great question. You just gave me

22:11

a moment of reflection there. Okay.

22:15

Yeah. You know,

22:18

that's a good point. And then

22:21

that's boys. And then for girls,

22:24

what do we do about mean girls? Because they exist. Do

22:27

they tend to grow up to be mean? Is there

22:29

research showing the correlation between being a mean girl in

22:31

college and being a mean girl as an adult or

22:34

in high school and adulthood? I

22:38

don't know. I

22:40

don't know, honestly, that there's a very rich

22:42

literature on mean behavior among adult women.

22:45

I don't think that's a well studied question. I'm

22:47

not familiar with it. Yeah. Okay.

22:50

So here's the deal. I'm not the world's biggest fan of

22:52

the term mean girls. Fair or not?

22:55

Fair or not? The reason why is

22:57

when we look at the research literature,

22:59

it's usually used to describe relational aggression, a

23:01

form of aggression that girls do specialize in of

23:04

Right. Of the

23:26

age. And

23:29

interestingly, girls will bully girls, but not

23:31

boys. Boys will bully boys and

23:33

girls. Right. I mean, so there's all of these

23:35

interesting nuances. Okay. But

23:39

we hear about mean girl behavior more

23:41

often. And I think,

23:43

and I wrote about this for the times that

23:45

ages ago, I think you can actually chalk that

23:47

up to another gender differences in kids,

23:50

which is how they respond when upset. So,

23:54

boys are more likely to discuss. Boys are more likely

23:56

to distract. So

23:58

There's a mean interaction at school. And

24:01

the most likely outcome for a girl is

24:03

a she's gonna talk about it, She's gonna

24:05

tell her friends she's gonna tell another result

24:07

or something And this is good in many

24:09

ways in the she may get social support

24:11

and awareness of what's happening. It also. Can

24:14

turn the corner and rumination where there's talking and

24:16

talking and talking and talking and not feeling better.

24:19

Boys. On the other hand, are

24:21

more likely to distract to come

24:23

home after a painful day, hop

24:25

on a video game, lose themselves

24:27

and something else and not necessarily.

24:29

Share. What? It is They went

24:32

through. And so

24:34

girls aren't actually. Meter, but it

24:36

looks that way in terms of what

24:38

rises to the level of adult for

24:41

such. A

24:45

What's going on Its course. Of

24:49

the Brooklyn Nets. invited to join

24:51

me for my podcast. Voice of

24:53

Earnest with Chris could be presented

24:56

like ticket. For

24:58

over two decades I have had

25:00

the privilege and honor of telling

25:02

the story of the Nets franchise

25:04

to radio play by play on

25:06

the podcast. take a little bit

25:08

of a deeper does not only

25:10

removed goes I Target mobile. slip

25:12

off your back the curtain share

25:14

some. Unique insight is stories too.

25:17

Intimate conversations with a great

25:19

roster of guess He saluted

25:21

some of your favorite players

25:23

and. So

25:25

Brooklyn that fed so Mrs Second

25:27

of the action is taken for

25:29

exclusive in this it have a

25:31

voice of s with me First

25:33

hobby I more video as advertised

25:36

as or wherever you get your.

25:45

Pencil A A Most and and As

25:48

Cupboard economic policy for years and reporting

25:50

on how it impacts people across the

25:52

United States. And. Twenty sixteen

25:54

I saw how voters were leaning

25:56

towards Trump and how so many

25:58

Americans felt misunderstood. Washington. So.

26:01

I started the big Take these the. Leading.

26:04

Into how money, politics and power

26:06

shape governments and the consequences for

26:08

voters. It's an election year, so there's

26:10

a lot of focus on the voters

26:12

that Tic Toc is reaching for. The

26:14

initial reactions like, oh, things are looking

26:16

so privileged. I. Don't be too

26:19

pessimistic, but I just don't see

26:21

the political will down and Washington

26:23

right now to to change their

26:25

tune. I

26:27

think the American electorate has been signaling

26:29

that it's expects a rematch of this

26:32

when it's when he alleged since his

26:34

own president a times. With.

26:37

New episode every Thursday. You.

26:39

Can listen to the Big Take Dc on

26:41

My Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

26:43

you get your podcast. Bring. A

26:46

little optimism in the like with the

26:48

bright side. A new kind of daily

26:50

podcast I'm Hello Sunshine posted by me

26:52

Danielle Go back and me some advice.

26:54

Every weekday we're bringing you conversations about

26:56

culture, the latest trends, inspiration as so

26:58

much more. Thank you for taking away

27:00

and you're innocent and eleven a world

27:02

and he really happy. I never imagined

27:04

that I would get the chance. To. Carry

27:06

this honor and help be a part of

27:08

this legacy. Listen to the bright Side on

27:11

America's number One Podcast network. I heart Open

27:13

your free I hard at and searched the

27:15

bright side. The

27:18

thank you for that bring that. Did

27:20

I really argue that the hear her

27:22

own personal? Because you do I even

27:24

Easy And the psychological literature in terms

27:27

of adults you see this the sex

27:29

difference over and over with relational aggression

27:31

in Dragon called indirect aggressive and I

27:34

are and females to a direct antagonism

27:36

amongst males I'm Jack was generally curious

27:38

what the data looks like for teenagers

27:40

and as it sounds like things are

27:43

a little bit more nuanced than. They.

27:46

Are it. But I will say we're

27:48

seeing much for me nest post pandemic.

27:51

It's been interesting. I I work. For.

27:54

A lot of schools as a lot

27:56

and speaking at in consulting to schools

27:58

and there is a rawness. Then came

28:00

a time and. It's

28:02

just. A straight up maintenance and kids that

28:05

feels of a different order them what

28:07

we're seeing before the pandemic. Much lower

28:09

tolerance for one another, much more eager

28:11

to push kids out of their social

28:13

networks to use pretty aggressive ways to

28:15

do it. Ah, But

28:17

it's funny when you're in when

28:19

I talk to his oh boy

28:21

schools and there's a. Agonies.

28:23

Singer quit teasing. the boys do

28:25

with each other almost incessantly, which

28:27

is sort of meant to be

28:29

funny. And you know, Not.

28:32

Rarely crosses a line into something

28:34

that actually kills. Really painful and.

28:38

I. Hear plenty sons.

28:41

Schools. That have younger boys. You know, it's

28:43

all really funny until somebody is badly hurt and

28:45

has often punches the kid who was. Given.

28:48

Him a hard time so. I

28:50

think on. Our jobs as

28:52

the adults around kids is to be

28:54

a tuned to when they're getting hurt

28:56

and to help them handle conflict while

28:58

back regardless of on. Gender

29:00

questions at all. Of that

29:03

the great points fum What I want to bring

29:05

the the picture is the preseason of the highly

29:07

sensitive. Boy. Or.

29:10

The highly sensitive girls well but I have

29:12

a let's just double click on the house

29:14

attaboy for a second because that was married

29:16

the success of Was Miss so I could

29:18

come with this from a very personal the

29:20

and I were that badges and H S

29:22

P with pride. I don't wear it with

29:24

like I'm ashamed of it you know. And

29:28

I also like to think I'm strong

29:30

it over and maybe like there's no.

29:32

There's no contradiction between your big, a

29:34

highly sensitive cumin and being strong arm.

29:36

But I do think we have this

29:38

kind of societal stereotype that. This, Those

29:40

two things are not compatible in some

29:42

way. I'm that you're being too sensitive

29:44

if you, if you don't like bullying

29:47

specifically to the hood area that window

29:49

as opposed to just like you know,

29:51

like to know that you're you're You're

29:53

having a normal human reaction to something.

29:55

I think you're. A question about

29:57

as sensitive and strong compatible. I

30:00

think. Blinds. Up very nicely was

30:02

but we were talking about which is that emotional

30:04

and being sturdy. In. Are

30:06

both compatible? The you don't emotional doesn't

30:08

mean you're not sturdy sensitive, doesn't mean

30:10

you're not strong. Reminiscing said: the more

30:12

we can have these things live side

30:14

by side. The. Better. I

30:17

think in terms of. The.

30:20

Question about highly

30:23

sensitive. And

30:25

attuned, unaware. I

30:29

think that. Maybe. And

30:31

this is the kind of question you are.

30:33

The best of all getting into. Media.

30:36

Said everybody seals.

30:38

Saints. And

30:41

that their differences. Actually interests was

30:43

ability to. Shove. The ceilings

30:45

to the side or hide their

30:47

internal reaction to the i think

30:49

I think was again heard all

30:51

the time. I

30:53

think it's really a measure of how good

30:55

or a day at. Seeking not be

30:58

hurt and that there may be

31:00

guys were better seeking nothing hurts

31:02

and others While that that may

31:04

be at work here. But

31:06

the other thing that you gesture

31:08

at at I think it's really important

31:11

when I'm taking care of teenagers and

31:13

I hear about these dynamics unfolding were

31:15

often. it's a guy. Either.

31:17

It going after a girl or boy

31:20

was some like jokes. It's meant to

31:22

be funny but it's not funny, it's

31:24

me. And then

31:26

the person the receipt receiving and

31:28

has a totally rational. Reaction that

31:31

like out or stop

31:33

or don't usually. The next

31:35

play from the to to just did that is like oh

31:37

my god I'm just kidding. Like way making

31:39

such a big deal. so that

31:41

just joking saying. Is.

31:43

Actually, I think a pretty.

31:47

Tricky. Armor. The.

31:49

Gets worn by people who are doing things that

31:51

are not that nice. Tough

31:54

questions and I think. You know,

31:56

I think about. What? Get served

31:58

up in the context of energy. Right

32:02

and what it means.

32:05

Is meanness becomes part of entertains

32:07

spray. Amazing. I think that's again

32:09

like he had to lose. A

32:11

custom is like why is this

32:13

here and does it belongs. Here

32:15

are am. And what does it mean

32:17

for it to sell up here? I

32:20

think I fucking questions in a one

32:22

is a areas of research that we

32:25

as is the ideas desensitization right that

32:27

if you're exposed to. Something. Over and

32:29

over. Again, the first time you see it,

32:31

it may be shocking, but then if

32:33

you see it repeatedly, it stops being

32:35

sacked and on. Years. Ago

32:37

I wrote a piece for The Times about

32:40

rape being saw on T V. Re

32:42

enter and it's is excellent at that

32:44

rear anymore. Especially was streaming platforms for

32:47

I'm. Pretty violent stuff to

32:49

just be woven into stories.

32:51

And we do have data

32:53

solely that repeated exposure to.

32:56

You. Violence celebrates makes it

32:58

less alarming. To radio or.

33:00

And I think it's probably just

33:02

a natural humans in a defensive

33:04

that. Comes up. And so I

33:06

guess I would say like setting aside the

33:09

question of whether it's funny or not funny.

33:11

You know, cancel bowl, not cancel a bull

33:13

Like does he know above my pay grade.

33:16

I think that the question I would

33:18

ask is it sees things become mainstream.

33:21

You. Know. If. You

33:24

ingrate joking about you know

33:26

anti semitic jokes. Raimi like

33:28

of these become mainstream. They

33:32

threatened to stop. Sucking us and

33:34

and I think that. That's.

33:37

A problem on the top. Gray

33:39

Point and they also in a Way

33:42

Out and Amazon so walk rate of

33:44

it also it away. they perpetuate stereotypes,

33:46

They reduce a whole group of people

33:48

to a particular stereotype that exaggerated and

33:51

which may make us as a society

33:53

start to view people review in that

33:55

group only through that lens that also

33:57

riot. And so okay. cylinders. The

34:00

things we can play was just from the side

34:02

of psychological science, you know, so one is. On

34:04

the idea desensitization the more you exposed

34:07

to let you know. Something.

34:09

It was shocking. It stops being shocking.

34:11

Another common example among adolescent boys am

34:13

a lot of ways game you know

34:16

that enough itself is a complex world.

34:18

not all bad by any measure, but

34:20

one thing that's very com his arm

34:22

for them to has kind of banter

34:25

going on over headphones or through other

34:27

you know. Simultaneous means and

34:29

that dance her often involves a

34:31

lot as in a kind of.

34:35

Given each other, her time and

34:37

or using smears and so like

34:39

the N Word for example comes

34:41

upon lost in these environments and

34:43

then what we see is it.

34:45

It's not then all that unusual

34:47

anymore for like some six great

34:49

kinda sorta school and be thrown

34:51

around the N Word because it's

34:53

lost, it's potency. Now and.

34:55

Doesn't seem as like completely over

34:57

the line because he just heard

35:00

a thirty. Times over our discord rates

35:02

are. So that's one phenomena

35:04

we wanna be really mindful of. Which.

35:06

Is related to the second which is North's.

35:10

We are shaped by norms and you know?

35:12

wanna? Know who's really see by norms adolescence

35:14

right? So what you're describing of if

35:16

we you know talk about this group

35:18

in one way or the time that

35:20

starts to be how we see them

35:22

lawyer because the norms of how we

35:24

talk about them are shaping how we

35:26

perceive them and how we think about

35:28

them seem. Think this is like enough

35:30

for all my worries. My

35:34

view of social media's you know,

35:36

nuanced, hopefully compassion. Hopefully you know

35:38

not to on single sided. but

35:40

when I worry that. One.

35:42

Of my biggest worries is the way in

35:44

which it sheets. Norms. For teenagers. Then

35:46

the way the algorithms work they will

35:49

flood a seed with a single top

35:51

acres. Lots of content in one area

35:53

and if it is also said ultra

35:55

thin people is it is heat content

35:57

is it is. You know any variety

36:00

thanks. Teams.

36:02

Will. Start to have a different

36:04

understanding of norms, random things and then will

36:06

change. Their behavior so they will start to diet.

36:09

Those are to engage. In his behavior.

36:11

And so it matters, what

36:13

gets. Main Street. In my

36:15

own. Work. And I on

36:17

my own podcast where I answer questions

36:19

from parents. I try not to get

36:21

bogged down. In. What

36:24

does broad and quite polarizing discourse is

36:27

around these topics? And just gotta wear

36:29

science which is so that a wonderful

36:31

thing to say. Well, years what we

36:33

have from the research. Here's what I

36:35

know from thirty years a clinical practice

36:37

and quickly that's have helped the. people

36:39

of I tried to the scene at how

36:41

do same I was that. Was.

36:46

A What's going on It's per

36:48

scoring of all time. Read your

36:50

Voice of the Brooklyn Nets inviting

36:52

you to join me for my

36:54

to podcast Voice of Earnest with

36:56

Chris Korea Presented like ticket. For

37:00

with two decades I have had

37:02

the privilege and honor of telling

37:04

the story of the Nets franchise

37:06

to radio play by play on

37:08

the podcast. A little bit of

37:10

a deeper does not only removed

37:12

goes I target moments with peel

37:14

back the curtain share. Some

37:17

unique insights in stores, intimate

37:19

conversations with a great roster

37:21

of guess he's moody, some

37:23

of your favorite players and.

37:26

So Brooklyn that feds don't miss

37:29

a second of the action. is

37:31

slated for exclusive. It must have

37:33

a voice of s with me.

37:35

First time hobby I was with

37:37

us. advertisements clear wherever you get

37:39

you past. Pennsylvania

37:48

mustn't and as cupboard economic policy

37:50

for years and reporting on how

37:52

it impacts people across the United

37:54

States. And twenty sixteen

37:56

I somehow voters were leaning towards

37:59

Trump and for so many American

38:01

felt misunderstood by Washington. So.

38:03

I started the Big Take Dc. Leading

38:05

into how money politics and power

38:08

shape government and the consequences for

38:10

voters. It's an election year, so there's

38:12

a lot of focus on the voters

38:14

that Tic Toc is reaching. For The

38:16

initial out, it's like, oh, things are

38:18

looking so privileged. I. Don't be

38:20

too pessimistic, but I just don't

38:22

see the political will down and

38:24

Washington right now to to change

38:27

their tune. I

38:29

think the American electorate has been signaling

38:31

that it's expects a rematch of this

38:34

when it's when he alive since he

38:36

saw unprecedented times. With.

38:38

New episode every Thursday. You can listen

38:41

to the Big Take Dc on My

38:43

Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

38:45

you get your podcast. Bring.

38:47

A little optimism in the are like

38:49

with the right side. A new kind

38:51

of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine has

38:53

to buy me Danielle, go back and

38:56

me to mount what. Every weekday we're

38:58

bringing you conversations about culture, the latest

39:00

trends, inspiration as. So. Much more Thank. You

39:02

for taking away and you're gonna send them eleven

39:04

a world and he really happy. I never imagined

39:06

that I would that the chance. To. Carry this

39:08

honor and help the of front of this

39:10

legacy. Listen to the bright Side on America's

39:13

number One Podcast network. I heart Open your

39:15

free I hard at and searched the bright

39:17

side. Why

39:20

is your team he how you

39:22

shoo In other words will have.

39:24

Why did a little slightest things

39:26

cause such big drama? Circuit

39:29

says got were going to file this under the

39:31

things that looked a lot different to me once.

39:33

I became apparent myself. so.

39:35

I have two daughters I have a

39:37

daughter is twenty, a daughter is thirteen

39:40

and I've been practicing and working in

39:42

writing for a while before I became

39:44

apparent. And one of the things you

39:46

know in our science is this idea

39:48

of separation individuation. The kids get to

39:50

a plane around adolescence where they need

39:52

to become separate individuals in each of

39:54

you. Don't make their individual know like

39:56

nature known and so yes, great theoretical

39:59

understand during seeing it in my practice.

40:01

Okay, then there's a living it with

40:03

your own cast. Okay, so. Around

40:06

thirteen, what he discovered is like nothing I

40:09

did was okay. nothing I did was okay.

40:11

And. Then I started to put

40:14

it through the lens of separation Individuation. And.

40:17

I understood that series. That concept in a

40:19

whole new was okay. So here's how I

40:21

write about it in my book. So the

40:24

way I like to think about it is:

40:26

teenagers around thirteen suddenly need to create their

40:28

own brand. Fried. they need to sort of

40:30

feel like their own brand and separate from

40:33

their parents and their own individual brand. When.

40:36

They Are doing this. Anything

40:39

We Do as Parents that

40:41

overlaps with Sarah emerging brand.

40:44

Is. Annoying to them because we're stepping

40:46

on their best. So here's how this

40:49

plays out of my house. I

40:51

have liked be unsafe for a very long time.

40:53

long long time she said around for a while

40:55

now and there was a moment when I had

40:57

a fiance on in the kitchen and I was

40:59

battling to the answer in the kitchen and my

41:01

thirteen year old daughter walked in and she had

41:03

just discovered the I Say eminence was now has

41:06

issues like. Stop.

41:09

Such a good I'm not a bit of

41:11

anymore at all anymore a battle for the

41:13

survey. I'd be as his mind the can

41:15

we. Should be I say. Okay, so score have

41:17

a seven hundred So that was a problem. We

41:19

were overlapping and that was a problem. Yet

41:22

at the same time they are still so

41:24

close to us and still so embedded in

41:26

family life. Did anything we do that doesn't

41:29

match their brand that is emerging is also

41:31

antagonizing to them. So I think years of

41:33

my dear friend who for her son's eighth

41:35

grade graduation and not graduation orientation she laid

41:37

out all the potential acid she could wear

41:39

and she's like just tell me which made

41:42

aware like or does he know if she

41:44

was something that was not cool enough use

41:46

gonna be in pain and and if it

41:48

was too cool he was going to be

41:50

up to it's to. Start.

41:52

With this looks like is there is a juncture

41:55

in raising. A teenager. grit

41:57

everything. You do that is like how

41:59

they see themselves. Coming is annoying.

42:01

Everything you do that is on

42:03

like how they see themselves becoming

42:05

is annoying. So and everything you

42:08

do enjoy. That the it

42:10

makes complete sense from it goofy

42:12

individuation prospective makes complete sense I'm

42:14

so it's almost like it. It's

42:16

really hard to just be viewed

42:18

cause as a parent as hard

42:21

as a black hole his at

42:23

that point. yeah. And

42:25

I will say. Senators.

42:28

Don't really want to pants to the

42:30

all that cool. I'm one of my

42:33

lasers learnings I'm I'm coming to for

42:35

my practice office or lot of what

42:37

I've learned about teenagers have learned right?

42:39

Here are some teenagers? Yeah and as

42:41

such as as a memory. As.

42:43

Others conversations a few different ways. That is the

42:46

kind of conversation were a teenager say to me

42:48

like oh, you know we're going to go to

42:50

Chinese this weekend. Her mom will die for us

42:52

and I'll say. Finish. And

42:54

knock offs, which so here I

42:56

don't know why she does it

42:58

right. So please sometimes press adults

43:01

to loosen up the cooler. That.

43:03

They actually much prefer that.

43:05

we'd be unpredictable. And

43:08

rigid. And adult not

43:10

rigid to the point of like you know, being.

43:13

Miserable. But. I know mean.

43:16

Benefit. Them do like. Listen, I'm

43:18

surrounded by unpredictable people who are pushing

43:20

the limits. Like I need to know

43:22

that. You guys you know you middle

43:24

aged people are not past. Oh

43:27

wow wow is that you know there.

43:29

There's so many parenting books like what's

43:31

the ultimate and and all the research

43:33

is keeps going back to or middle

43:35

of the road via you know bestselling

43:37

books that try to depart from then

43:39

so. Is there?

43:41

And then you wonder and in. One

43:44

of the things is tricky by writing about

43:46

parenting is that it's a very big world

43:48

with a long as people with strong opinions

43:50

is a don't actually broad training. And

43:53

so. I. Think as you are.

43:56

Pulling. Look some people who are trained in the

43:58

seals you can together on. Garnet

44:00

were always so sexy as possible

44:02

take on the topic. Korea?

44:04

Yeah you know that that the middle

44:06

of the middle ground Zeroes is usually

44:08

Billie Sexy and the sees me that

44:10

the most Correct. Correct

44:13

and grounded in the science exactly

44:15

sideways, I think. I

44:17

think you know one of the things I've

44:19

worked really hard to do is to. Create.

44:22

Content that is. Available

44:24

and interesting, and to see without

44:26

actually bending. Danny. Extreme or reacting

44:28

to what's going on. In a way to

44:30

sun helpful. Yeah,

44:32

officer or are you also friends?

44:35

Who the do if another mutual

44:37

friend just lazy. Or

44:39

we yes, am I imagining that? I

44:41

feel like okay, awesome Ah yes. his

44:43

his friend. Some great stuff about The

44:45

Edge from an education perspective On for

44:47

the remaining time we have today, we

44:49

talk about education. a little bit of

44:52

y two kids heat school so much.

44:55

With where there was a together one of the on

44:57

and increase their love of learning. Yeah. Of

45:00

them are so a metre. I

45:02

love metaphors and one metaphor that

45:04

I. Detail and this

45:07

most recent book is that. I

45:09

think it's appropriate for us to think

45:11

about school as being like a compulsory

45:13

up to say of things. Were

45:16

teenagers are required to eat everything on the

45:18

bus. And.

45:21

Wouldn't. Like that this metaphor it is.

45:24

We. Accept the idea that their

45:26

food preferences. We do not seem

45:28

people for. Not liking beats brain.

45:30

We accept that. that is. We're

45:33

not unlike everything. I

45:35

think we seem kits for not

45:37

liking every single thing they're served

45:39

up. And. I.

45:42

Think it's fine to ask kids to try everything

45:44

on the for say I also love seeing an

45:47

adult I go up a surf myself some psychology

45:49

he to a site of a novels it for

45:51

the evening but like I don't know I haven't

45:53

dealt with says it since I was my skull

45:55

right and then I haven't There's a lot i

45:58

don't engage anymore. But

46:00

it because we can take that attitude

46:02

that. You. Didn't says all assess left to

46:05

your own devices. You would not have sweated all

46:07

of this for you do need to consume at.

46:10

I think it does a lot of good. First of all, we

46:12

take the same piece out of the picture which is not helpful.

46:15

Secondly, We then think

46:17

like what supports do need to get through

46:20

the content that you would not have chosen.

46:23

How do we think about intrinsic and extrinsic motivation

46:25

that is like. The. Bad Motivation:

46:27

The good motivation Like good of bad

46:30

kids need extrinsic Good kids are all

46:32

intrinsic. The rather see them as two

46:34

different strategies for gotten through that plate

46:37

of food said of I think it

46:39

just. Moves. Away.

46:42

Some. A very judgmental. And.

46:45

Again toward same. This is

46:47

a assuming the a group. Of kids,

46:49

nothing and all of it On and

46:52

I think scott about this like. I.

46:55

Basically I love my animals much as I

46:57

can love what I do I am I

46:59

heard a lot of the like variety of

47:01

what it means to be a psychologist I

47:03

never stop learning the still plenty of times.

47:05

I mean specially is a week drags on

47:07

ram like. I don't do this work right

47:09

now. And so if

47:11

I feel that way about the stuff I

47:13

chose, that I'm getting paid for. Of

47:16

course kids are gonna feel that way about

47:19

things they did not choose. And

47:21

that they have to do so we can be on their side

47:23

of that more I think as we help them get it done.

47:27

While it's a great point of

47:29

it did in a subset of

47:31

children and in the school systems

47:33

are no diversion. Jump. In

47:35

that scenario my career that I've been

47:37

very interesting. I've been studying twice. Exceptional

47:39

children who are both have gifted they

47:42

both have gifts as well. As about

47:44

that learning difficulties oh it's that were

47:46

in difficult is not disability, fell in

47:49

your own work com or how much

47:51

have you were to with with children.

47:53

Hundred diversion for saw. A safe bet

47:55

actually because I have some of their lives.

47:57

And the nice thing is schools like the.

48:00

I I I love marrying, practicing and working

48:02

in schools. because you act as you can

48:04

slice schools you get to see a lot

48:06

more. Occur the earth and

48:09

and and in your own

48:11

experience and I'm do they

48:13

have unique emotional oh lives

48:15

or needs sauce need So

48:17

what would have you observed?

48:20

Of there's a lot one could say some skin of

48:22

the couple things. So first of all, As

48:25

so much respect that they maintain motivation

48:27

at all. I think all the time

48:29

about why it must feel like if

48:31

you go to school and everything is

48:33

presented in a way that is not.

48:35

Working. For you are not. Accessible

48:38

for you. I.

48:40

as I pass these kids com day yesterday

48:42

yesterday if we're not actually making this work

48:44

for them and just like that, it's. Like

48:47

when. I think about like who's really selling

48:49

us what motivates Looks like it's so awesome. The

48:51

kids from school is not well designed and yet

48:53

they persist and I just don't know that we

48:55

admire that nearly enough. Intensity.

48:58

Emotional piece. Is

49:02

a couple see things to say. It's.

49:05

Not unusual, I'm under a diversion as a thick

49:07

big tent. As you know, Oh yeah, it's.

49:09

Not unusual for their to be

49:11

some language. Challenges in

49:14

their. Yeah. And.

49:17

One. Thing we can say about a motion

49:19

and it's expression is that being able to

49:21

put words to ceilings is a real. An

49:24

asset. Pray. That

49:26

it is. Hot Springs Healing Center size A

49:28

communicates what's happening. It can bring good support on

49:31

board. And so forth.

49:33

A subset of winter. A diversion,

49:35

kids were. there's a language interference.

49:39

Lease is a struggle more to share with

49:41

their feeling in ways that are legible to

49:43

the people around them and to get released.

49:45

Through talking about emotions. So that's one

49:48

issue. The

49:50

other saying though that I think.

49:53

Needs to be sort of thrown into his release

49:55

and. Appreciated and probably

49:57

shared more broadly about nerds. And

50:00

kid is it you know from my

50:02

book. I feel like

50:04

took a reference is one way

50:06

to get really for negative emotions

50:08

that there are many, many many

50:10

options and language is only one

50:12

of them and so you senior

50:14

a different and kids in particular

50:16

really the incredibly strong as signings

50:18

ways to com themselves when they

50:21

feel upset that may not involve

50:23

language. Place to find a brief

50:25

distraction the can help manage the

50:27

ceiling effectively does not involve language

50:29

that they are often quite a

50:31

bit more fluent in these other

50:33

highly adaptive, perfectly. Wonderful ways

50:35

of mincing feelings. that and

50:37

we don't showcase nearly enough

50:39

because everybody's pretty preoccupied with

50:41

getting. Kids. To talk about Felix. Could

50:46

good let's let's a wonderful or.

50:50

Oh, there's lots of saves their.

50:54

That we should consider and in the

50:56

that dare I say the for rainbow

50:58

of of a lot of mine's a

51:01

surgeon, a huge. Variety that it

51:03

has. It's cool. Yeah, I get it.

51:05

I. Get it, I see you, I see you for sort.

51:08

Of those are less good is my last

51:11

question. For or which they to be are

51:13

one of your special your time I'm do

51:15

you have any sort of parting thoughts on

51:17

the best ways for parents to stay connected

51:19

to in an authentic meaningful way to their

51:21

teens and provide the can really ship the

51:24

the adolescence may not say they need and

51:26

one but actually needed one. At.

51:28

To suggestions. Of

51:31

so the first one I took the

51:33

teenagers about what they really want Some

51:35

adults. I can sum it in two

51:37

words: Our. Agenda

51:39

Lists presence. So.

51:42

They like us any like topless around but

51:44

not so much as other questions or the

51:46

time. So I'd

51:48

say it makes a there's plenty of time in

51:50

a week where if you have a teenager where

51:52

you just drive and in the car letting them

51:54

pick the music or you're watching the show they

51:56

want to much or your over there doing there

51:58

he met your he. What is? The. New you

52:01

doing their homework? Like us

52:03

they are. Plate.

52:05

On to surrender by adults with an agenda

52:08

and they like a break from that to

52:10

certain things. The other thing I will say

52:12

as like the know sale help you connect

52:14

with your kids to achieve. When.

52:17

Kids to share that they're upset when

52:19

something is wrong. The.

52:22

First response: I cannot think of the time on

52:24

this is not a great first response. The first

52:26

response I think should almost always be empathy. For.

52:29

You just say on the stakes

52:31

are I'm really sorry. I wish

52:33

that were true. Or of course you're

52:36

upset. Start their you

52:38

may be done that is often all kids

52:40

lot that's all they are looking for I

52:42

think usually instead they get advice. Or crash

52:44

adults so that afford out on

52:46

top secret. Or any of us watch

52:49

episode You to those two things: make

52:51

yourself in a gentle his presence as

52:53

often as you can and respond with

52:55

empathy when your kid comes your way

52:57

with distress. Honestly, those two

52:59

things are like superpowers for

53:01

connecting with these. Wonderful!

53:03

Always a doctor to more. Thank

53:06

you so much for your level

53:08

headed and I'm a empathetic approach.

53:10

It's obvious to anyone listening that

53:13

you really care about this population

53:15

and and you would generally one

53:17

to Are you want what's best

53:19

for them you're not. You're not

53:22

in this to for finger pointing

53:24

or had to for put a

53:26

career like you know to me

53:29

like you really want to you

53:31

for the science to to help.

53:33

Them. So thank you so much for be on my

53:35

part. Yes into that were suddenly. You. Welcome!

53:37

Thank you so much for having made a real

53:39

honor. Was honor for me to. The

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