0:14

Today. It's a great honor to chat with the legendary

0:17

Paul Wong on the podcast. Doctor

0:19

Wong is Professor Emeritus of Trent

0:21

University. He is a Fellow of APA and

0:24

CPA and President of the International Network

0:26

on Personal Meaning and the Meeting Centered

0:28

Counseling Institute, Inc. Editor

0:30

of the International Journal of Existential Positive

0:32

Psychology. He has also edited two influential

0:35

volumes on the human quest for Meaning. A

0:37

prolific writer, he is one of the most cited existential

0:39

and positive psychologists, the originator of Meaning

0:42

Therapy and International Meaning Conferences.

0:44

He has been invited to give keynotes and meeting therapy

0:46

workshops worldwide. Doctor

0:48

Wang is the recipient of

0:51

the Carl Rogers Award from the Society

0:53

for Humanistic Psychology. Doctor

0:55

Wang, what an honor it is to chat with you today, me

0:59

too. Where should

1:01

we even begin? You know, I'll tell

1:03

you I was looking through all

1:05

of your papers, going all

1:07

the way back, trying to trace

1:09

the development of your research and thinking,

1:12

going on the way back to your work with Rats

1:16

Wow in the seventies. In

1:18

the seventies, the effect of food

1:20

deprivation and imprinting on the behavior

1:23

of young domestic chicks. I think that might

1:25

have been one of your first papers nineteen

1:27

seventy one more

1:29

no, my, my where to help

1:31

people with that? That was wow sixties.

1:35

Yeah, I worked with rash first. Wow.

1:38

So actually all

1:41

my research at the same scene,

1:46

m scene the same is how

1:49

can animals or

1:52

human beings survive

1:55

and schrife in

1:58

deprivation in average concation.

2:01

That would be my scene this' that's

2:03

why I come myself with a

2:05

central part of psychologists

2:08

because life is hard, live

2:11

is hard for all animals. So

2:14

I fell up the fishes. You

2:17

are now strong or eaten?

2:20

Eat or eating? So

2:23

that has been my

2:26

my, my question. How can we how

2:28

can we s live strife in

2:31

the face of threat, obstacles,

2:37

danger, So

2:40

that is not just a philosophical question

2:43

because while

2:45

the born Japan,

2:49

Japan, you wed the China, you

2:53

know, we're growing up with with

2:56

the window tape with paper strips

2:59

mhm. So that would not be shattered. And

3:02

at night we used to little

3:04

oil land and cannot turn the light. Going

3:08

with four years old to

3:11

Japan with Germanese soldiers

3:14

with guns came

3:16

to a house, want to take over the house so

3:20

we could all move out. So

3:22

I was shipped to All children were shipped

3:24

different families. So

3:26

I was shipped to a removed

3:29

relative. They put me in the

3:31

basement for lights

3:34

and darkness, and I was

3:36

very nice there, you know, was with my whole

3:39

body being on by bucks.

3:43

So therefore you and

3:46

then we escaped to Hong Kong est So

3:50

that's why I said, well, there's

3:53

a lot of the process that calls about life

3:56

in your true and part of

3:58

the territories I think

4:00

on me to have moved my life is a narrative

4:02

territory. Mm hmmm.

4:05

What So where were you born? Well, let's back up a second.

4:08

Where were you born? In what year? Mans

4:11

is nineteenth? Studies seven in

4:13

Tangi wow,

4:16

wow wowow. And so where did

4:18

you Where did you

4:20

go to college? I

4:23

went to I

4:25

went to the college in Calgne University,

4:28

Okay.

4:31

I came in Canada to study a Calgary

4:33

A Calgary, yeah, Colgne

4:36

University, okay, in

4:38

Canada, in Ottawa.

4:41

Yeah. And then you up for my period

4:44

yeah okay. And then at

4:47

what point did you get interested in psychology?

4:50

I would you know? I was? It's

4:54

a college one when there's a kid, No, I don't.

4:57

I always wondered white people

5:00

losing that way? Why people say that you

5:03

know us? Yes, ob

5:06

Now what happened to me in

5:09

my currents? Die? Oh

5:11

yeah? Who look after me? And

5:14

what happen why I die? So

5:16

I was wrestling with usual death

5:18

was eight and nine years old? Wow? Wow,

5:22

I was born a sat

5:24

philosopher. Yeah,

5:29

so you were. Were you interested in the existential

5:31

philosophers? Yeah?

5:34

Yeah, of course I read

5:36

all it, you know, in my teens,

5:39

I read all right to him books. Yeah.

5:42

Yeah. And it's

5:45

what's really interesting about you is that you

5:47

really you predate the field of positive

5:49

psychology by quite a bit. I mean you were

5:51

I was looking back you. You came up with a

5:53

well the perceived well Being scale

5:55

in nineteen eighty four, the year Michael Jackson

5:58

won the Grammy I want

6:00

one. I think one of the first questions tell me about that.

6:04

I did their land story with with me

6:06

and and the and Marty.

6:08

Okay, we actually started

6:11

about the same time. See,

6:14

when he was doing research and

6:17

helplessness, I was

6:19

doing research both with with

6:21

animals. I was doing research

6:25

with learning optimism, learn

6:28

the courage. Okay, yeah,

6:30

So I wrote to him, I said,

6:33

Mary, I say,

6:38

I I don't think that animals

6:40

can become helpless so

6:42

readily, because

6:44

if they become helpless up

6:46

to some exposure to non

6:48

contingent plantations

6:52

do not have survived. I

6:54

say, you an your dot, I've

6:57

got really been reduced to the helpless

7:00

stay thing consternation, I

7:02

said, I you understand the street dogs.

7:05

They will not be so easily redue

7:08

to helplessness. We lit

7:10

on this will show that that's right. A

7:13

wild dog would not be become

7:16

helpless so soon. And also

7:20

I say that your human

7:23

beings, as opposed

7:25

to I feel new

7:27

contingent enforcement

7:29

become helpless. Still it no,

7:32

but I can graduate to become

7:34

helpless. That is artifact. So

7:37

I will see my career man, but as

7:40

damn myself

7:42

here will say I'm not helpless. I'm just

7:44

still it to waste my time. I notice

7:46

hosing is ripped. There's

7:49

something to me that as helplessness. So

7:54

I oh research you

7:56

know with animals the human

7:59

to put Marty is wrong and

8:03

his his partner Steep

8:05

mayor agree with me. Amazing.

8:11

This is so you contacted Marty in the eighties.

8:14

In the sixties you

8:17

said, you said email, So I don't

8:20

think email existed then, but you wrote

8:22

him letters. Yeah. Well

8:24

yeah, so uh

8:27

step may I like my work. See who

8:30

did Steep Mayor? Yeah, Steve

8:33

Mayor. Yeah, Marty's collaborating me and

8:35

collaborator on the Wow.

8:38

He's a teacher of of

8:41

Chris Chris Peterson. Yes,

8:44

yes, of course may

8:47

with Frank. So

8:49

he was serving on the on the

8:52

National Institute of Mentor

8:55

I am h committee, So

8:58

why from

9:00

me to take over? And

9:03

I am aged about about about logical

9:06

behapule signed panel.

9:09

So and also he came to my conference

9:13

where I met your where I met

9:16

your mentor Robert

9:18

Sternberg. Know yet what

9:21

year was that? What year was that conference? I

9:23

was way back, you know, there was anyway,

9:27

So see me, I came to my conference,

9:29

came to my simposium. Uh helplessness,

9:35

uh doing interpretational helplessness.

9:38

But anyway, so

9:40

because I had to agree with Martie so

9:44

well, puties are great because we're

9:47

doing findings right. So for some reason

9:51

it God of marriage me. I don't know what

9:54

he what Citian he got married

9:56

me. He got mad, He

9:58

got mad of you for for doing what exactly

10:01

because the questioning he said, But

10:04

then he ended up creating a whole field

10:07

based on But then he created a whole field

10:09

based on it. Yes, I've

10:11

started my

10:14

animal research that

10:16

you know. I actually talked with Skinner.

10:20

Skinner, yes,

10:22

Skinner, Yeah, I actually christ

10:25

monuments game. I have learned to a team, so

10:27

I said, I said, I talked to Skin. I said, Skinner,

10:31

you know you open

10:34

conditioning is it's

10:37

the first level, the higher level

10:39

of open conditioning,

10:42

because animals can learn us

10:45

the girlfriend the first level. So I took

10:48

a data scar agree with me, but

10:50

he died it on so

10:53

so this decision, he might be increable on

10:56

culatuity. So I want to teach

10:58

rise rooms. The

11:02

one rule is the creativity you know was I

11:04

invented a two par skin

11:07

about so the

11:09

God reinforcement only

11:11

when they learned to alternate

11:15

lift right, life right, they're

11:17

gonna freshman part. They

11:21

had an alternate. They learned the rule

11:23

of alternation. God

11:26

enforced only one day, press two

11:28

hair to left. I think with them,

11:31

I teach the right how they count either. Also,

11:34

it is interesting, so

11:37

I do it rem

11:40

sleep right with red

11:44

with color Smith.

11:46

It's a sleep

11:49

researcher. This is very interesting.

11:53

Why do you teach the animals simple

11:55

learning? Uh?

11:58

Them sleep? You know we

12:01

know that. But for

12:04

animal creativity that

12:06

you're doing game. There's some

12:08

rest, canoe run,

12:11

there's there's stupid rest. Some

12:14

rats will never learn a while. That's

12:16

amazing. Well, I wonder if that's the case with

12:18

humans as well. Luck clear at

12:21

alternate you know they fixed it and went far.

12:24

They have to switch firing under gaving enforcement.

12:27

So you should we find that there

12:32

a few animals who were able to learn.

12:36

They show a huge

12:39

ramp sleep people

12:42

next day they got

12:45

it. The restaurant

12:47

show that showed a huge jump

12:49

in ram sleep never learn. So

12:52

if somehow that

12:54

their brain that little rap branding

12:58

side, you know the

13:03

rule there, so they're able to learn

13:06

a higher holder thing. I see

13:09

ye, all there able to teach animal

13:11

to learn pressure bar that

13:14

can increase the efficiency

13:16

of enforcement anaba the

13:19

higher holder. The skinner never got studied

13:21

at that's amazing.

13:24

When did you do those studies? Was that early on

13:26

in your career? That was in the in

13:28

the sixties in the late sixties. Wow?

13:31

Wow. And also I also

13:33

challenge roter I

13:36

challenged everybody the locus of control

13:38

guy, the locus of control guy. Well, I

13:41

said, rat, you're all wrong it. Also,

13:46

you really stir the pot there, doctor

13:48

Long, I said,

13:50

you're all right. I said that you force

13:53

people to choose in

13:55

I turned out, Now the

13:58

world don't operate that way, as say I

14:01

said. Chinese guys are posting internal

14:04

and external same time. See

14:06

we look hid internal, or

14:09

we do credit for teachers, for

14:11

parents, or I'm able to succeed

14:14

because my teacher is

14:17

very good when my parents

14:19

apartment studied. So we're

14:21

able to do

14:25

So that I understand why Chinese people

14:29

they didn't have to figure it out how good they

14:31

cannot measure. They cannot measure

14:34

the true picture to the four temperatures

14:36

either one. So I developed

14:40

internal eternal as

14:42

two independent dimensions.

14:46

So behold, the Chinese guys

14:48

are both high in internal and

14:51

external dimensions. So

14:54

I said that should be applied to

14:57

all the research that most

15:00

variables are not are

15:03

not two

15:08

values on the same dimensions, you know, type

15:10

lal independent

15:13

dimensions. So that is so

15:15

that can change trying

15:18

the whole feel about measurement. You're

15:21

on your two independent dimensions, then

15:24

you're a lot. Must make creativity a

15:27

lot of the maximum cottony possibility,

15:32

right yeah,

15:36

uh hm, lid

15:39

are after

15:41

me? Uh uh. The

15:44

guy in in Michigan

15:47

with the Chinese

15:49

that the pant and they

15:51

say all Chinese people are more factable connectively.

15:54

They see things, you

15:58

know differently. I found

16:00

it a long time ago. If they never see

16:02

I'm based in Canada, they

16:04

would pay attention to my research. So

16:08

that's why you invited me. I said, well, that's too

16:10

many for me to share

16:13

my ideas. People

16:15

don't pick Canada seriously, they

16:18

don't. They don't. Then't

16:20

take Canada serious. Everything in America,

16:22

right I do. My best friend

16:24

lives in Canada. Oh there, you

16:26

are different. That's why you you you you invited

16:29

me. They are grateful to you. Right, Okay,

16:33

there's a lot a lot going on here right now, a lot

16:35

a lot that you're talking about. Well,

16:39

I'm doing everything trying

16:43

to find out what they Yeah.

16:47

So so

16:49

my thinkings were different from people

16:51

in the West because of my training is different. Right

16:55

in Chinese? You know who I'm the kid my

16:58

parents pictures taught

17:01

me. You've got to work harder.

17:04

Heard the

17:07

top people work the harder. Okay,

17:11

yes, yeah, and

17:14

then shines saying that you

17:17

will do it and your suffering in

17:19

a young age, you're never

17:21

sure saying life. So

17:24

that idea in greening

17:26

my mind. You do work and do

17:28

suffering and do work hard. You're

17:31

never a month to anything. Mm hm.

17:34

So that's quiet. I see

17:36

that now. Not American people

17:39

want to easy life. They can easy

17:43

easily with so sacrifice with stufffraing.

17:46

You know, I said, oh, that's not real life. So

17:50

now and damn it, people can realize now

17:54

life is difficult with the pandemically

17:56

lockdown people look

18:00

not I employed

18:03

bankrop that's just sick.

18:06

So now it goes into a

18:08

reality. The love is hard,

18:11

So I say, love it hard. Do you know

18:14

that those part psychologists say I'm

18:16

accientific, I'm too pessimistic

18:20

at I criticized for years

18:23

by polypsychologists. Well,

18:25

this is why you're an existential positive

18:28

psychologist. I think you may be the only

18:30

existential positive psychologist on the planet.

18:35

The epistential people treat psychology,

18:40

I know, I know, it's ridiculous.

18:42

I've been trying to unite all

18:44

these all these different factions, and I mean,

18:47

why not just call yourself a humanistic an

18:49

existential humanistic psychologist.

18:51

That's what I That's what I am. I'm just curious.

18:54

Yeah, it

18:57

is easy. So you Yeah,

19:01

you're amazing because you

19:03

call yourself human psychologists, and

19:06

yet the past of psychology people

19:09

imprecious, but

19:12

the rest humanity psychologies, the plot

19:15

with them, it's a shame. It's a real shame.

19:18

I'm trying to change that. Yeah, because

19:21

Kirk Schneider, Yes,

19:25

Churs Knight and I trying

19:27

to set up a special

19:30

issue of American

19:33

psychologists and have a

19:35

dialogue with Marty,

19:37

and the channel said, hey, I do them.

19:42

It never comes to fruition. They

19:45

will not, so it'd be nice to

19:47

have a dialogue. They do build

19:49

a dialogue. I don't know why. Definitely

19:54

believes in dialogue. Hits. Yeah,

19:58

great, but the anyway is never configuration.

20:02

Yeah. So uh even

20:05

now I write

20:07

to parts of colored people like

20:10

this district were a great

20:14

uh uh this

20:16

guy uh Duckworth,

20:19

the Chinese angel Worth Yeah

20:22

uh, I told her, I said, yeah,

20:25

Chinese, Chinese, don't think

20:27

about that. Great like that. You

20:30

you know that you're complete your

20:33

courage. I had true groups of courage.

20:36

It's just passion, persistence with

20:39

the compaction. Well courage, you

20:42

don't mean the basest scene. It's

20:45

more fortitude, more

20:49

and more for you to

20:51

do the right thing. And also brief

20:53

it. You know, I'm going

20:56

to put my life on the line. I may to

20:58

risk my life, not your

21:00

persistent but sacrifice.

21:03

So you you missed out courage, You

21:06

missed out as a face

21:08

to believe in something. She

21:11

know? She never reply at

21:14

least how good is it? Older

21:17

than you or you? Because my daughter

21:20

if I thought you something right her

21:23

students talk to me that

21:25

was, but she don't

21:27

reply me and just not did

21:30

not good research her? Well, she's very busy.

21:32

She's a very busy human. It was,

21:36

and for the science for science, the

21:38

stick of science. You another

21:41

senior researcher over family discuss

21:43

with you? Am I sure that

21:46

you're passionate about at

21:49

least you should discuss he

21:51

ignore me? I love her those

21:54

times? Sorry who was that? Who are you talking about?

21:56

Uhh and oh

21:59

I'm sorry you said he? So I was confused. Do you

22:01

mean she? Yeah? She, yeah, yeah,

22:03

she's it's okay. Yeah. So

22:06

yeah. I hear. I hear your frustration.

22:10

I hear that you are frustrated. In twenty twenty,

22:12

you wrote an article called the Unheard Cry

22:14

of a Successful Asian Psychologist.

22:17

That was the title of your article.

22:19

What is what is the unheard cry? Exactly?

22:22

If you could, uh give you the microphone

22:24

right now? What is what exactly is it is

22:28

so not only people

22:30

to know what I mean, the

22:33

real real famous people like Skinner

22:35

and the h they'll

22:38

talk on me. But but for some

22:40

reason, the parts of all these

22:42

people, this this

22:46

tribal mentality is yeah, they

22:49

do want to talk to people who who

22:52

questions? There the

22:54

simplicity not

22:57

to me. I

22:59

got aize one

23:02

time, but I have type of grant for the

23:05

temper ten from a conference.

23:09

One reviewer with positicology that suffering

23:14

has nothing to do with proschology, reject

23:17

my plant. That's it's unfortunate.

23:21

But I fought back. I say, suddenly,

23:25

I'm gonta do with poscology. Suffering

23:30

is the basic positology. So

23:33

I wanted to taste I become a minute. Okay, but

23:36

I'm saying that at every turn I

23:38

thought this party

23:40

colored people slightly. I'm reject

23:43

me eleven right, consider continuing

23:46

every every step of the way. They're

23:48

rejecting, rejecting, rejecting. Well,

23:51

let's let's talk about your research, because let's

23:54

let's focus on the positive. Let's not focus on

23:56

your suffering. No, I'm joking, that's a joke.

24:00

But let's let's talk a little bit about

24:02

you know what's awesome about your research. You've

24:05

tried to create something called PP two point

24:07

zero Positive Psychology two

24:09

point zero, And I just want to read a quote

24:12

of yours. You said, PP. Two point zero is concerned

24:14

with how to bring out the best in individuals

24:16

and society through dialectical

24:18

principles of yin and yang in spite

24:21

and because of the dark side of human

24:23

existence. Now look, I love it. I

24:25

mean I discovered your work through

24:27

a textbook that I was reading

24:31

to prepare for my positive psychology course I was teaching

24:33

at pen There was an introductor to

24:35

Positive Psychology textbook where you were featured

24:37

heavily in it. So, first of all, the whole

24:40

field's not against you, just so you know. I mean,

24:42

you were in this whole textbook. You were featured,

24:44

you know, and I really

24:46

liked your work. I really liked your work when I

24:48

saw that. So if you could just elaborate

24:51

a little bit on PP. Two point oho, that'd be great.

24:53

Okay, I've

24:58

been seeing a gang again, but

25:01

nobody listen. So I'm saying that it's

25:05

impossible to

25:07

have physical health without

25:10

have the virus and

25:12

control. We know that now, right, I

25:15

don't know how how healthy you are. Usually

25:19

are immune. No, you know everybody

25:22

and get sick. Okay,

25:25

so get physically healthy. You

25:28

need to have humanization. You

25:31

need to prove protective

25:33

body against injury,

25:36

against coxagens. The

25:39

same logic applied to mental health.

25:43

You have parts of mental healths or

25:46

happiness. You

25:48

have to protect the mind against

25:53

trauma charlcoal

25:56

trauma, I guess,

26:00

save relationships against

26:05

toxic positivity again,

26:09

toxic emotions. So

26:13

therefore MHM

26:17

partly psychologists one serials said that just

26:20

focus on simply focus on the party's

26:25

I'm realistic. No,

26:27

I'm realistic. It's harmful

26:30

because I was in clients.

26:33

I'm miserable because they won't happiness

26:36

but they can't get it the

26:38

miserable. Yes, so this

26:42

just single, single minded, focused

26:45

and postivity. Actually

26:49

pray people who

26:51

are frustrated.

26:54

What you press, We're

26:56

anxious. True

26:59

positivity tea. It's

27:01

a light shining in the darkness.

27:05

True possibility must

27:08

take into that count the

27:11

mystery impact in the world,

27:14

the condition, the work, conditions, power

27:16

table, climate

27:19

change, as well as

27:23

the dark side. That's

27:25

quite why I wrote that paper. I

27:27

said, Wow, this dark

27:29

side, life side, the great

27:32

research. Oh it started.

27:35

It's from Penn State, I said, Oh,

27:38

I said, Martina must

27:40

be Marty must

27:43

be a hypher reverse

27:46

experience. A lot of this can

27:48

of research. That

27:50

is the dark side light

27:53

sign. So I

27:55

always tell people it can't

27:57

be happy if you do hard

28:00

get along with your dog twin. Everybody

28:03

ego say

28:05

that again. Everybody has

28:08

an evil twin an

28:10

evil what what

28:12

twins? Twins?

28:16

Twins get two

28:19

sides? Then the two sides

28:21

twins? Oh

28:24

twins? Do you think? Do

28:27

you think everyone has an evil side to

28:30

them? Though? Like evil is a pretty strong word. Oh

28:33

dark side, dark side, dark side,

28:35

Yeah, yeah, your right

28:37

side and dark side. You have the golden golden

28:41

shadow, your dark shadow. Yes,

28:46

So so that's what I'm excited

28:49

about your I

28:51

don't want said I wish that. I

28:54

wish that scart

28:57

was both, but that brother not

29:00

starting them acceparate with

29:02

separate colors, but

29:05

somehow to see how

29:10

how they how how different people treat

29:14

these two uh,

29:16

these two parts of them differently? Those

29:19

people able to transcend

29:23

and integrate, Yes, they

29:25

had a mental health. Better have mental health

29:28

than people who fighting, who

29:30

said divide theirself prioritized

29:33

minds, why within themselves? Those

29:35

guys denying the dark

29:37

side will have worse life. So I

29:40

said, I said, oh I wish, I

29:42

wish God will go to the next step. You

29:45

know, yeah, true.

29:48

Uh, the second wave possicology

29:52

ask for a complete different, riskless

29:54

strategy. That

29:56

is, for

29:59

us gay any

30:02

passive available

30:06

or do any possible influvention, you

30:09

have to factor in a

30:12

coherent a

30:14

quarian of the

30:18

dark side as the central side. So

30:21

that would give you a better picture, because

30:24

I study past

30:27

emotional net emotion. But the issue

30:29

is separately, there's

30:31

the hiddest question and proper quession. Do

30:36

you want one too? The

30:38

dark side and the fry side. The

30:41

two sides are EASi. It's

30:45

it at

30:48

the tape of our work is

30:51

typical algebra sitting

30:54

low days, actings, and the motivation

30:57

saying that the net achieved

31:00

when it's equal to approach

31:03

miners avaridance. So

31:06

I say, actinta, you're wrong, because

31:13

who's right, who's right? In the field? What

31:20

he is wrong? I said, you

31:22

know, the best, the

31:24

best lawyer, the best

31:27

scientists, because they

31:29

do want to be failed. Do

31:32

that be hard? So

31:36

so in that case, if

31:38

they're able to have a passive approach

31:42

adapted approach to feel

31:44

failure mhm. They

31:47

were able to turn awardance

31:50

into doublely

31:52

hard work to avoid

31:55

that to make sure the one's going to

31:57

have it and

32:00

us the motivate inter state. So

32:03

if you UH

32:05

a a person

32:07

who can corporate and natural part and

32:10

transform it will

32:13

be stronger and happier

32:15

and more achieving than

32:18

your only focus on on the

32:21

part of that is that my whole

32:23

part I'm saying that you can

32:25

achieve. You

32:27

can be more creative, more

32:30

was seeding, more

32:32

purishing if

32:36

you docture in the

32:39

dark side looking for

32:41

you just

32:44

just melogic right, that

32:46

would uh has

32:48

lots of energy there? What is?

32:51

Can you define the dark side for me? What?

32:53

What? How do I know? What's in my dark side? Come

32:56

on? You know your I know agree?

33:00

The extractlishness, sistic,

33:04

the manipulation,

33:08

trying to use people an instrument,

33:11

work, work inter people as people,

33:14

you manuply use people and

33:17

sat path sale

33:20

part you went to fever one you

33:23

describe anybody on your way to

33:26

get a hat. The compoleter

33:29

plantations, none of them mascycle

33:32

paths. They are

33:34

they are equating people but

33:36

misguided ad level talk about their

33:40

misguided votivations

33:43

misguide their lifestyle. M

33:45

hm. So that's why possible

33:50

to come zero means that you

33:53

recognize that everything

33:55

is downside and upside

33:59

you. Your dark side has an outside has

34:02

done your dock side

34:04

are very creative energy.

34:07

The crucial energy come

34:10

from your dark

34:12

side and your dark

34:15

side, so

34:18

you do a world of dark side. They're

34:21

not member your writer. The

34:24

dogs had all resial ideas and

34:27

how to the kunal mind. The

34:33

mind is very smart mind

34:35

saying how can

34:37

I get the most from this guy? A

34:40

scam scam scam

34:43

artists. They were smart people, you

34:46

know, all the scam artists, the palms

34:50

on scheme, the okhom schemes become

34:52

a elevel creative story to

34:55

take your money. So

34:58

there's the dock side. You know you were able

35:01

to hill with your dark

35:03

side. I want them to help you to do bustands.

35:06

You're full. I had that want to focus on project.

35:09

There's some wologic but never losing

35:12

me. Well, I would push

35:14

back on the thing that no one's listening

35:16

to you, because there is there

35:19

are there are a number of psychologists who are interested

35:21

in this what what you call the second wave of

35:23

positive psychology. There was a book,

35:26

I think a book came out a couple of years ago

35:29

on the second wave of positive psychology, and

35:31

they you know, we're lauding you, lauding

35:33

you, and uh yeah,

35:38

my friends Tim low Mark exactly.

35:42

I think that the old car you know,

35:44

the the original

35:46

group, you know, like a three years

35:48

ago, those guys, the monk mentality,

35:51

you know, they think that we're

35:55

I'm challenging their the empire

35:58

did the environment and the

36:01

younger guys. This

36:03

filled let me so,

36:06

Marchia series doesn't work with my students.

36:08

You know, this isn't doesn't unreally, Yes,

36:12

printing the years, uh, she's

36:14

a prosperity. But now

36:17

we have nine eleven and now we have pandemics.

36:20

I mean the march Is have

36:23

old stop now you know it's a printing

36:25

here of course

36:28

change before you have the

36:30

patriots. Now we have five g iPhone

36:35

the world a change. So

36:40

what I'm trying to understand is this, there's a lot of similarizing

36:43

differences between your approach and and my and

36:45

my and you know, posit psychology one point, as

36:48

you would call it, so you've chosen

36:50

virtue meaning resilience

36:53

and well being is the core tenets of of

36:56

of of posit psychology. Two point

36:58

Oh is that right? That they're

37:01

my old day? I become more

37:04

I've become more h more

37:07

complicated enough, But anyway,

37:10

so on every single issue, well

37:14

given assumptions, is

37:17

the assumption that true

37:19

possibility, true positivity,

37:24

you could existentious

37:26

darkness. H

37:29

Also, you

37:33

cannot look at the world through

37:35

the binary is the all

37:38

mentality that's

37:40

been silly? Mm hm. That

37:42

said, because even

37:45

mine is big enough to

37:48

be able to hold two ideas

37:51

in two hands, well

37:55

both and you know, like emotional

37:58

options and biggers. Because you were hard

38:00

big enough to hold emotions,

38:03

your mind should be big enough to

38:06

consider both views,

38:10

both ideas by certain

38:12

over, I'm true, we're inviting

38:14

shadd by binary to

38:17

let's think about that,

38:20

the dark side and bright side both

38:23

the contribution the thing to that to enterprise.

38:26

Okay, oh boy, that would

38:28

make you much more creative,

38:30

more not petic. So

38:33

the whole idea is that like

38:37

quantum to attend them quantum

38:40

quantum thinking, I

38:42

can't both a lie in that quantum

38:45

computer is a binary people

38:49

cross the thinking system thinking. Uh

38:52

So, the whole idea is that, well,

38:55

our brains should be big enough to

38:58

feel content, to feel comfortable

39:02

to holding two opposing ideas and

39:05

feel comfortable. Yeah, both

39:07

as a dover. That will dialogue.

39:09

Oh, internal dialogue, the internal

39:11

dialogue between your your heart,

39:14

your mind, the internal dialogue

39:16

between your soul and your body. So

39:21

so that's how we grow. We grow

39:23

through navigating

39:25

a balance in compact system.

39:28

Yes, is this is this your dual

39:31

this is your dual system model of the good

39:33

life that you're describing. Yeah, yeah,

39:35

you know. I mean you Chinese

39:38

that you are right, okay, one

39:40

side one side, you're in travel.

39:43

So so the taking part of that that

39:46

I don't agree. Then you

39:48

have to look at things because

39:50

when you look at things, when

39:53

your heartpa not to hold full emotions

39:56

all the pure, isn't

39:58

you you let women and man open the love

40:01

hate together? Now? Uh

40:04

the teacher's student relationship of optionally

40:07

love hate, So relationship

40:11

emotion all pins that

40:13

co two complimentary

40:16

but opposite sides. Agreed.

40:19

Yeah, now he is pin

40:22

difference. So

40:25

we talk about you've got to involve

40:28

in the that part your sister in the

40:32

desertion is that to

40:35

a self, it's not

40:38

good psychology in the sixties

40:42

your self, so psychology, so

40:46

psychology only take you so far

40:50

because by my friend dave back and

40:52

say it's not an agency. They're

40:55

also communion community.

40:57

But also talk about the visuality

41:00

tape because behind it to

41:02

agency and communion the spirituality,

41:05

it's a triparthic tripod ri voble.

41:09

The religious approach to human being is

41:12

that him being has put as a spiritual

41:15

dimension. And more

41:17

importantly, we are not isolated

41:21

indi vidios closing

41:24

skins. We're all part

41:26

of a human network. And now

41:32

so therefore a

41:34

psychology is some difulese I

41:39

as the agent, as the self contained,

41:42

the patient individual.

41:46

That would result to what the

41:49

guy called the years ago American

41:52

psychologist called, uh,

41:54

the empty self. The

41:57

empty self occur. It's

42:01

because it's my focus themselves and

42:06

ignore the community social

42:09

values that I was so

42:11

interested Uh, community

42:14

value of community, a neighborhood, and

42:18

spiritual value. Sometimes

42:22

you know that Jordan

42:26

people think call about religious instincts. I

42:29

mean I caught that spiritual

42:33

instinct you study

42:35

culture. I said that, well,

42:38

there said that they know God, they

42:41

create God because in this horrible

42:44

world, because

42:46

survive with our God. So I

42:48

thought, none of my clients there from China,

42:51

they don't believe God. I say,

42:53

I try you, I say to help you with

42:56

all the taculty techniques. I know

42:59

you can't be that addiction. You

43:01

better, you better ask

43:03

God to help you. I

43:05

said, you guys, pray I

43:07

lived as a god because currently

43:09

speaking I travel say yes,

43:12

yes, still can a book that book

43:15

the addiction or just have you better have it? And

43:18

sorry I can't help you anymore. M

43:20

hmm. I want to pray for you. You

43:23

know, prove yourself this

43:27

question. I don't believe in God. That's

43:29

that's gay. So a

43:32

play isn't happen, A prayson't not happen? Wow

43:35

it bro, that's magic. I

43:39

said, Now I can help you. So therefore,

43:43

when people discard spracial

43:48

values to your

43:50

creaking values, the whole

43:52

Western civilization is in danger. There

43:54

are no match to the least in civilization.

43:58

The discipline, hard work, the

44:01

creativity is the Western

44:04

civilization is no mess, no

44:07

mass to the issue civilization

44:10

without. What makes how strong

44:13

is to do Christian value

44:17

of a

44:20

sign, intrinsic value to individal life.

44:23

Every individual matters. But

44:25

that is that

44:28

is the biggest contribution, and

44:30

also the Western value importance

44:34

of about run

44:37

greace, to fear forgiveness, forgiveness,

44:39

to be feer, that's a big one. Forgiveness.

44:43

With self forgiveness and no relationship, Okay,

44:45

it's also a negative positive Guala say,

44:48

with self forgiveness, there's

44:51

no not part of about the mandainity

44:53

innership. You have to the past,

44:56

see you everything. That's what

44:58

I'm saying that you

45:01

know in a person for you knows about to

45:03

flourish. We

45:06

have to factor in. That's

45:08

the agency. But community

45:12

mm hm, we have to so

45:14

I have experience. I've been doing meet

45:17

up group you know, trying

45:20

to get tray quick community for

45:22

years, the

45:25

real estate community and speciality.

45:30

This world is the

45:34

universe is full of wonders

45:36

and mysteries. Will

45:40

you know what that matter is? Which you know what that

45:42

hole is? We can

45:44

know what time? What

45:47

can power make all the galaxies

45:50

all the start move into They're

45:53

all but elderly who

45:56

know the hire Jum saying

45:59

the young was thinking collect

46:02

God or call and costume you

46:04

call it. So when

46:07

you're in trouble, the

46:10

idea that as

46:13

there's unknown superpower temple

46:17

by health, it's

46:20

such a consolation you

46:23

have such hope. That's why I said, try

46:25

to try to optimism.

46:29

It's based on faith. Then

46:31

all since failed you are a minor

46:34

bury three three miles

46:36

and the cround. Oh,

46:39

you are floating in the ocean

46:42

full sharks. You need to rub

46:45

a boat. You better pray,

46:48

man, you better pray. Nobody

46:52

can help you. That's

46:56

why I'm saying, you can't go through life without God.

46:58

It's yeah, man,

47:03

I wasn't expecting a sermon,

47:07

so let me ask you about me. I

47:10

just sort of my last question for today because

47:12

it's we're coming up on the hour. But I wanted

47:14

I really think during this time, a lot of people feel

47:16

a great lack of meaning, and

47:18

you're You're really the guy to talk to about this.

47:21

You know, you're the person that talked about this. You created

47:23

a meaning. Uh. Therapy

47:27

is that right? A meaning centered form of therapy

47:29

that was based on Victor Franco's work. Is that right?

47:31

Integrative meaning therapy? Right? Usually

47:38

puvot hum to ank me today?

47:41

What I mean? I said, do

47:45

my life meaning? You ahead? Mhm?

47:48

Still that life's

47:52

a good? Are you able to

47:54

feel? Gosh? You're

47:56

able to learn? And

48:00

everybody unique single language here meaning

48:03

is to love

48:06

life, learning,

48:09

ruling, barning, food or

48:11

process. That the logical that

48:14

every person is on earth, they

48:18

can learn and grow and bear fruit. That's

48:21

meaning that meaning number one,

48:24

Yes, you know everybody can

48:26

meaning being alive do

48:29

that. I

48:32

agree, I agree, it's called I

48:34

love the idea of existential gratitude.

48:37

No no, no, no, no no, yeah yeah oh

48:40

not yet, not yet, Okay, too soon, this

48:43

first lesson, I tell him share

48:46

with them. But today

48:48

you're able to I

48:51

mean many people are shick, many

48:53

people can walk.

48:57

Now you're able to walk along, You're

48:59

able to learn sens Wow,

49:02

what a privilege, What

49:04

a privilege? Sbout

49:10

that if you you

49:12

will have a just stimple

49:16

let itself is a miracle that

49:19

you are. You're part of the miracle that

49:22

you know. Life is social meaning.

49:26

The second thing the stand say you're

49:31

alive. No, not only you're

49:33

able to create that'n

49:36

call that creation value. H

49:39

that the Brits marvelous machine.

49:41

You can't the little

49:44

kids throughout that picture. You

49:46

will create music, create

49:49

art. My little

49:52

and that little sim is restent tape, able

49:54

to create things the computer.

49:58

That's amazing. Creativity

50:03

is meaning the creative

50:07

with your life, with ever, that

50:10

is so much joy, It's so much richness.

50:13

Creative meaning yes, like

50:16

yourself meaning creative meaning

50:19

yeallo yellow. You know ya, you

50:21

don't say that our love is love

50:24

is horrible, so painful, painful, But

50:28

creativity. You're able to

50:30

creation with your life. That is,

50:34

he said, if he wishes he had my face, but he

50:36

couldn't be santipious,

50:39

thinking he cannot believe in God. He had

50:41

married, life has faced. But I

50:43

said, but you have creativity, so

50:46

we we we sho go around all that. But anyway,

50:49

the creativity, but

50:51

most you don't want to can crazy,

50:56

but you're able to safer

50:59

and appreciate all

51:01

the beauties around you. Look

51:04

the sun sets, sunrise, and

51:07

the leaves shint color over season. I

51:10

smell the fresh air, and little

51:13

children play and live in the beautiful

51:15

music. Wow, we're living

51:17

in a wonderful world. Yes, you

51:20

do. More time we're

51:22

able to put their hands against

51:25

and over the shadow that way making

51:29

plaint games that there's

51:31

someone seemed to enjoy cont

51:35

depressed as a shame on you, shame

51:38

you. You know how to appreciate all the thing You

51:40

are ready hat the

51:43

mindfulness have all over your eyes to say,

51:45

look there there the

51:47

lots of wonders around the world. Love

51:49

is beautiful, you garpe can,

51:52

It's beautiful. Mhm. The

51:54

artists can make it a beautiful painting. Suffering

51:57

can be beautiful. Is that what you're saying? Stopp

52:00

being beautiful? Because it's

52:02

cool to be sad. It's

52:05

cruel to be sad. It is cool

52:07

to be said, that's cool, it's cool. It's cool.

52:11

Started. I'm a stapil for

52:14

better than a happy pick, I

52:17

said long before, I'm reaching your life with depths

52:19

and happy pick this shallow. No, we're

52:22

going to be shallow. You put a meaningful

52:24

life in a deep life. See it in a way to look

52:26

at it, meaningful

52:28

life. Don't don't. Don't go for a shallow

52:30

life. You drink and be

52:33

married. That's a shallow life. Be

52:35

a staff. Join my club?

52:39

Do you say tribe? Do you say join my tribe? Is that

52:41

what you said? It's join my cloud to

52:43

be sad. Say it again, join

52:46

join my clouds, join my crop,

52:49

jo my club. Yeah, yeah, so I

52:51

really like, I really like that idea of

52:53

depths of meaning. You know, the nineteen

52:56

eighty seven paper you wrote, uh with

52:58

your colleague, Yeah, depths of me. But

53:01

let me continue a subtle meaning

53:03

that the creativity and experiential

53:06

Okay, now

53:10

longer day the defining

53:12

attitude. That means courage if

53:16

you if you can't let's say you come to

53:18

in camp. You can't work,

53:22

you can't enjoy scene, but

53:25

at least you're

53:28

there to rebel against your faith.

53:31

Yes, yes, you can hume

53:35

my body, but I cannot describe my soul.

53:38

Okay, I will walk into

53:40

my gest chamber

53:45

with pray my heart. When

53:48

someone lips I

53:51

die with dignity. I choose

53:53

to die with dignity. With what

53:56

on your lips? A son?

53:59

I live, pray, preecing God, praise,

54:02

praising, praising, I

54:06

lived with him. You hire my might

54:08

in my prayer, in my heart, I

54:12

praise the Lord, the preas the Lord. So

54:14

I'm saying that he said that, and

54:16

the all Elexander All. Alexander Sailier

54:19

said that a human

54:21

being a job to repel, rebel

54:24

against fate, rebel

54:27

against against

54:29

all the deterministic

54:32

forces, to

54:34

repel against all

54:38

the determining forces. You

54:41

feel free have a human being that

54:44

you fight him against, against

54:47

the dark forces. Your

54:49

alive. So

54:52

therefore you enjoy. That's

54:54

why Cisurface must

54:56

be happy when he defied

54:58

the gods. Poof to thank

55:02

you, I wrote down you

55:05

all, I will continue to to

55:09

enjoy nice, stronger,

55:12

stronger, strong, I

55:15

don't know, over and die. Yeah,

55:18

define it's

55:21

happiness. Wow,

55:23

doctor Wong, please don't

55:26

change, don't change. I have to thank

55:29

you so much for coming on the podcast today,

55:31

but I also want you to know that I appreciate

55:33

you. I don't I don't

55:35

ignore you. So I appreciate

55:38

you too. You have you

55:40

have the mass slow Jr.

55:45

I love it. Well. I just really

55:48

real honor having all my podcast today. Yes,

55:50

we're on the same page. We work hard,

55:52

threw together all

55:57

the sane, well human beings exactly.

56:00

Yeah. So to those labels,

56:02

do y labels? Do you y? I

56:05

agree? Yeah, So I don't much

56:08

comes out your pop psychology.

56:12

I'm dealing with your extential issues, but

56:15

also the post I believe in a better

56:17

future. Do not believe the

56:19

piven change? Yeah? Yeah,

56:22

and that's that's I think, very much in line

56:24

with the humanistic psychologists. And

56:26

they're they're they're they were deeply influenced

56:29

by the existential phosphors. Okay,

56:32

so to you again, Yes,

56:34

thank you, doctor Waference

56:38

see at the conference. Thanks

56:41

for listening to this episode of the Psychology

56:43

Podcast. If you'd like to react, in some way

56:46

to something you heard. I encourage you to join

56:48

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56:50

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56:52

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56:55

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56:59

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57:02

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57:04

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57:06

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