0:00

Think of your careers as like

0:02

pearls on a necklace that you're collecting

0:04

, as opposed to something

0:07

like a ladder right , and I've always

0:09

loved that , because it's exactly what

0:11

you're saying . Every experience

0:13

is valuable , and just because you're

0:15

pivoting and going to do something else

0:18

doesn't negate

0:20

your experience .

0:26

Welcome to PH Spotlight , a

0:28

community for you to build your

0:30

public health career with . Join

0:32

us weekly right here and I'll

0:34

be here too your host , sujani

0:37

Siva from PH Spot . Hi

0:42

, vinu , and welcome back actually to

0:44

the podcast , because I think our listeners

0:46

will have heard the episode

0:48

you me and Leah recorded from

0:51

just like self-employment in public

0:53

health , and I really wanted to

0:55

hear about your journey . And here we are , the two

0:57

of us chatting about that .

0:59

Wonderful . Well , thank you so much for having

1:01

me and , yes , happy to be here

1:03

, awesome and .

1:04

I think the other piece that you

1:06

and I mutually felt excited about is that

1:09

we're both , you know , south Asian and

1:11

women in public health , which was also

1:13

, you know , really nice for me to just connect

1:15

with somebody who has very similar roots

1:17

to me , so this will be a fun combo , for

1:20

sure . Okay , so

1:22

one of my favorite questions , and

1:25

one that often kick starts this

1:27

conversation , is how people

1:29

discovered public health and that this

1:31

field exists , and I saw

1:33

, when I was preparing for this , that

1:35

you actually started off

1:37

your studies in like engineering

1:39

. How does one go from wanting

1:42

to pursue engineering to then like

1:44

discovering public health ?

1:46

Everything was accidental in my

1:48

interest in engineering as well as in public

1:50

health . I know it always cracks

1:52

me up . I feel like at some point

1:54

in the future I feel like

1:57

you'll start getting different answers

1:59

to this question , in the sense of you know it cracks

2:01

me up , like especially after COVID

2:03

you know , people know that public health

2:05

exists and is a field and have like some

2:07

sense of what it is . But when I was in college

2:10

I quite literally did not know that

2:13

public health was a field or what it was

2:15

. Even my interest in engineering

2:17

didn't really start out as an interest in engineering

2:19

per se . I was

2:21

interested . I was actually interested in

2:23

both journalism and biology . It was actually

2:26

like which one of these do I want to do in college

2:28

and ultimately sort of a little

2:30

bit of practicality winning out and being like , well

2:32

, writing and journalism I can always do . You

2:35

know , on the side , maybe like major

2:37

wise , I'll go biology

2:39

route . And just you know , family

2:41

friend randomly was like , oh , if you're going to do biology

2:44

, like think about doing biomedical engineering , because

2:46

the classes will be a lot smaller . And

2:48

that was literally the extent of my

2:50

rationale . I was like , oh , that

2:52

sounds great , I'll do that . And

2:54

then sort of found myself in engineering school

2:57

with everything that that entails . But

2:59

I actually loved engineering academically

3:02

. I've always , you know , liked math

3:04

and numbers and whatever . So it was . It

3:06

was a very good fit and interesting

3:09

academically . But I quickly realized

3:11

, you know , I was in biomedical engineering

3:13

and I'm like , okay , I don't really want to be in a

3:15

lab pipetting things all day , I don't

3:17

really want to be in front of a computer modeling

3:20

things like . And I was quickly running

3:22

out of . I was like there are no career options

3:24

here that actually appealed to me . So

3:26

what do I do ? And

3:28

was trying to figure out . I was still at

3:31

that point , you know , was writing for the college newspaper

3:33

, so still sort of had a foot in like the journalism

3:36

, writing , communications arena

3:38

. I was giving tours of the university . I've always really

3:40

enjoyed public speaking , so I was kind of trying

3:42

to figure out how do I merge these

3:44

things that I like doing with

3:46

my interest in health and medicine . I

3:48

was also starting to get more exposed

3:51

to and interested in sort of like broader

3:53

societal implications

3:55

of , you know , of technology and engineering

3:58

is the way it was introduced to us in engineering

4:00

school . But yeah , I did the engineering

4:02

school at the University of Virginia

4:04

, where I went , had a science

4:06

, technology and policy internship

4:08

program and so I did that . Internship

4:11

was in DC for the summer and

4:14

it really just kind

4:17

of became clear that this was

4:19

kind of the direction that

4:21

spoke to my combination

4:23

of interests . And then I

4:26

randomly bumped into my resident

4:28

advisor on grounds one day

4:30

and she was applying to mbh programs

4:33

and it was like a light bulb and I was like public

4:35

health , like that sounds like it could

4:38

be the mix of things . And then I I you

4:40

know googled it and was like , okay

4:43

, like this seems like the right mix

4:45

of things that I'm interested in , and so then

4:47

that is how I found public health

4:49

and have been there ever since . So I actually

4:52

started in public health

4:54

, really interested kind of specifically

4:56

in health communications because I was sort of coming at

4:58

it from that , you know communications and health

5:00

interest . But I feel like really

5:03

just day one of my masters in

5:05

public health program we had like

5:07

a social epidemiology course our first

5:09

year and just kind

5:11

of getting oriented to the

5:13

idea of these upstream drivers

5:16

of health and I feel like I was immediately

5:19

sold and immediately interested in

5:21

much more broadly interested

5:23

in public health as a field yeah

5:26

, it's interesting because

5:28

I I'm kind of like reflecting back

5:30

to the time when I got introduced to

5:32

public health and it's very similar

5:34

.

5:34

You kind of know the areas that you're

5:36

interested in and like what you want

5:39

to do , but you can't figure out that word

5:41

. And then when somebody starts telling you about , like public

5:43

health and for me it was epidemiology and then you

5:45

know , oh my god , that's what I want to

5:47

do and you almost know , because your interests are

5:49

now like matching up with this word

5:51

that somebody just has introduced to you

5:53

, and then like yeah , you jump on the computer

5:56

and you start reading . You're like , oh my god , this is what I've

5:58

been looking for . Okay

6:00

, so you , you discover public

6:02

health while you're still like pursuing

6:05

your bachelor's . Is that right ? yeah

6:07

, yeah okay , and

6:09

then ? What are some of your next steps from there ?

6:12

Yeah , so I continued . I mean again , I was enjoying

6:15

the biomedical engineering program academically

6:18

so I never really considered sort of

6:20

switching majors or anything at the undergrad level

6:22

Also , certainly at the time at

6:24

the undergrad level like there was not a public

6:26

health degree to be had anyway . But

6:28

I continued in biomedical engineering , but

6:30

every summer . So it started

6:33

with the science and technology

6:35

policy internship program and then the summer

6:37

after that our university had

6:39

small sort of undergraduate research grants

6:42

. So I applied for a research grant that

6:44

was public health focused , actually

6:46

looking at nutrition

6:48

and related behaviors amongst

6:50

those with diabetes , actually in

6:52

South India , in Thumbelnato where my family is

6:54

from , and it took the opportunity

6:57

to do some work there

6:59

one summer and then summer

7:01

after that does some work again

7:04

policy related , in the governor's office

7:06

in Virginia . So sort of used sort

7:08

of the summers to kind of explore

7:12

more of this public

7:14

health interest area . And then

7:16

I did apply for a master's

7:18

program straight out of undergrad

7:21

and went directly into a master's

7:23

program for public health , which in

7:25

retrospect I don't know that that is what I

7:27

would do , but at the time

7:30

it felt like the

7:32

way to get into the field . In

7:35

retrospect I later did

7:37

my doctoral degree . I got a

7:39

DRPH in public health part

7:41

time while I was still working

7:43

and also after I had worked for a few years

7:46

, and at that point I

7:48

feel like there was so much more

7:50

I could put in context from what we

7:52

were learning in class . So again , kind of

7:54

looking in retrospect , sometimes I'm like if I

7:56

knew everything I knew now I probably would

7:58

have worked for a bit . But at the

8:00

time it seems like the right

8:02

thing and I do think especially

8:05

for me because my undergraduate degree

8:07

was not in anything related to public

8:09

health . I feel like those two years

8:11

in the master's program really shaped

8:14

my understanding of what

8:16

public health is and

8:18

what areas I was most interested

8:20

in . So , it was very formative

8:22

in that sense , yeah .

8:25

Something that we both said we'll chat about

8:27

in today's convo was this idea

8:29

of like pivoting , and sometimes

8:32

I guess you think about the

8:34

sunk cost , if you will , for lack

8:36

of a better word , and

8:38

you think let me just go through with it , especially

8:41

you having invested four years

8:43

into a biomedical engineering degree

8:46

. That must have been a , or I'm

8:48

assuming it must have been a very difficult decision

8:50

to say , okay , I'm not going to go work , I'm

8:53

going to go and pursue a different field

8:55

where I know my interests and

8:57

kind of everything I want to do is align to

8:59

this degree . Can you talk a bit about

9:02

what happened with you during that time

9:04

and whether that was easy for you or not ?

9:06

Yeah , I mean I don't know if

9:08

I would say it was easy necessarily , but I will

9:10

say like I don't think I had any

9:12

doubts because it was very clear

9:15

to me again , like in terms

9:17

of what I liked doing , it

9:20

was very clear that none of

9:22

the traditional sort of biomedical

9:24

engineering paths were going to be

9:26

what I enjoyed doing . And

9:28

so I feel like in that sense again

9:31

, finding public health is probably

9:33

one of the few like light bulb moments

9:35

, and I feel like people always talk about light bulb moments

9:37

and I feel like there sometimes

9:39

it feels like that doesn't really happen in real

9:41

life . But I feel like this was one of the few

9:43

in my life that really did feel like a light bulb moment

9:46

, like oh , like this is exactly what you were saying

9:48

, this is what I've been looking for and I just didn't

9:50

know that this existed or

9:52

this is what it was called , and

9:54

in some ways I feel I mean I agree like any

9:56

pivot is hard , in

9:58

the sense of you feel like

10:00

you've put in time and effort and

10:02

energy and you know biomedical engineering degree

10:05

was hard , like I always

10:07

say , like I'm kind of glad I did that academically

10:09

because nothing that came afterwards felt

10:11

hard . But you know , after

10:13

all of that , you know it does take

10:16

some energy and courage

10:18

and faith to like decide to make

10:20

a pivot . But I find it's

10:23

actually I think people struggle

10:25

a lot more with pivoting further

10:27

into their career . I feel like when you're

10:29

whatever you've done some academic

10:32

work or early in your career

10:34

, I think it's a little easier . I think

10:36

I've seen a lot

10:38

of friends and colleagues struggle with the

10:40

idea of pivoting when you're a little further

10:42

into your career . And I mean this happened

10:44

to me . So for several years I worked

10:47

on evaluation of an anti

10:49

smoking campaign and like the tobacco control

10:52

and prevention world is a very

10:54

specifically focused

10:56

kind of arena . You know you're

10:58

interacting with a lot of folks

11:00

who are in the same space , going to conferences

11:03

with a lot of folks in the same space . No-transcript

11:06

For me . I hit a point

11:08

where I was like I don't want to be

11:11

siloed , working on a specific issue

11:13

. The whole appeal of public health

11:15

to me was that everything was interconnected

11:17

. I was intentional

11:20

about I want to seek a

11:23

job that is not siloed

11:25

in this topical way and went

11:28

about that very specifically

11:30

. I think I've seen other

11:32

colleagues feel similarly but

11:35

feel like but I have all

11:38

of these years of work experience in this space

11:40

, this is my entire network Like how

11:42

could I possibly pivot

11:44

to something else ? I think

11:46

that what I tried to do , and what I always

11:49

encourage other people to do and think

11:51

about , is , at the end of the

11:53

day , I feel like the thing that matters

11:55

is what is it that you most want

11:57

to do ? All

12:00

of your experience and skills

12:03

can be framed in

12:05

a way that is connected to that

12:07

thing . Of course

12:09

, there are some pivots . If you have to be a medical doctor

12:11

, there are certain things you have to do . That's

12:13

just the nature of the game . But

12:16

for a lot of us in public

12:18

health , depending on what it is that you want to

12:20

do , the pads are not so

12:22

defined . So there's actually a lot of opportunity

12:24

to pivot if that's something you want to

12:27

do . So I think it's just a matter

12:29

of thinking about how do I take

12:31

my experiences and skills and frame

12:33

it in a way

12:35

that it becomes clear what

12:38

translates , what can even be a value

12:40

add when you have a

12:42

different lens and a different perspective and you're bringing

12:45

it to something new that can be really valuable

12:47

. So I just think pivoting

12:50

is a lot more possible than people

12:52

think it is .

12:53

Yeah , and I think there's a mindset

12:55

shift that has to occur at that point , because

12:58

if we think that this

13:01

experience would have been wasted if I

13:03

move into something else , I

13:06

think your ability to make that

13:08

pivot becomes harder . But

13:11

if you shift that to think no

13:13

experience is bad experience , every experience

13:15

I've had builds upon

13:18

itself . And how can I use that

13:20

in this new path

13:22

I'm about to take ?

13:23

It's such a good point , and one of my

13:26

mentors once described this

13:28

as like think of your careers

13:30

as like pearls on a necklace that

13:33

you're collecting , as opposed

13:35

to something like a ladder , and

13:37

I've always loved that because

13:40

it's exactly what you're saying , like every

13:43

experience is valuable and

13:45

just because you're pivoting and going to do

13:47

something else doesn't negate

13:50

your experience . We take

13:52

different things and I think about this all

13:54

the time with engineering in the

13:56

sense of like I haven't used

13:59

a differential equation since I was in college

14:01

, so like one could look

14:03

at that and be like , wow , what wasted

14:05

time and energy that was never used again

14:07

. Right . But I feel like every

14:10

problem we solve , every

14:12

experience we have , it

14:14

is training your brain to think . In certain

14:16

ways , it is giving you a certain lens on

14:18

problems . For me , engineering

14:20

in particular is it's

14:22

about systems and that's

14:24

what public health is about too , and I

14:26

feel like that

14:28

connection in

14:31

some ways is abstract in the sense of

14:33

like my day to day work is not the things I

14:35

was doing in engineering school , but I feel like

14:37

that sort of way of thinking in lens

14:40

is like very deep rooted

14:42

in me because of

14:44

sort of that engineering training and then

14:46

building on that with public health . So , yeah

14:50

, I really like the idea of sort of like collecting

14:52

pearls on a necklace , like the experiences

14:54

might not all be like directly

14:57

building on top of each other , but they are

14:59

all valuable and adding up to

15:01

you know , a stump that's greater than it was .

15:04

Once in engineering , always an engineer , I guess . Yeah

15:07

, I guess that I'm

15:09

curious , like do you have

15:11

a very intentional

15:13

reflection period in your

15:15

day or your like week

15:18

? You seem to have periods

15:20

when you put together the different

15:22

pieces of your journey and I'm always

15:25

curious to learn from everyone's

15:28

kind of like reflection methodologies .

15:30

Yeah , that's such a good question . I

15:32

mean not in a highly

15:35

consistent or systematic

15:37

way I'm not yet

15:39

a journal or or you

15:42

know anything like that but I like stories

15:44

in all shapes and forms . I

15:46

feel like that . You know , I was a

15:48

dancer , a writer , tour

15:52

guide , like all of these things that were ultimately

15:54

about telling a story , and so I feel

15:56

like I'm always trying

16:00

to synthesize information

16:02

into a story , and

16:04

that applies to , like , my own

16:06

journey in life too . So I feel like I

16:09

do a lot , just sort of innately

16:11

, in the way I think and process things

16:13

. I do a lot of that kind of like

16:15

reflection and

16:17

, yeah , just storytelling

16:19

. So I feel like that is where some

16:21

of that comes from .

16:22

Anyway , I like that . Okay

16:24

, so you go on to get

16:27

an MPH degree . Where

16:29

did you think you would be working when you're

16:31

like pursuing your MPH degree , and is

16:33

that how it all panned out ?

16:36

I don't know that I really had a clear idea

16:38

, to be honest , like when I was

16:41

getting the degree , like I knew I really liked

16:43

public health and again

16:46

sort of quickly became really interested

16:48

in like how do we address these

16:50

upstream drivers of health . I

16:53

don't know that

16:56

I had a very

16:58

clear sort of plan

17:01

or idea or dream job or any

17:03

of those things . So I was

17:05

far away from home for the first

17:08

time when I was doing my master's program in

17:10

the summer between my first and second

17:12

year . My only rationale

17:14

was I wanted an internship where I could

17:16

be back at home and so my

17:19

parents live outside of Richmond , virginia

17:21

, and Richmond is the state capital of Virginia . So

17:24

I knew the state health department was there and

17:27

I honestly cold emailed

17:29

the chair of their injury

17:31

and violence prevention department at the time I was

17:33

taking actually a suicide prevention

17:36

course . That just

17:38

like blew my mind . I thought it was

17:40

so interesting

17:42

and really thinking about

17:44

again those like policy

17:47

systems , environmental shifts that

17:50

can help us , you

17:52

know , reduce something like suicide , and

17:55

so cold emails the director of the injury

17:57

and violence prevention department at the state health

17:59

department . So I always tell people like don't try

18:01

away from cold emailing . I'm not saying make

18:03

it your main strategy in life , but

18:05

you know sometimes it works

18:07

. And so she

18:09

got back to me

18:11

and , you know , exchanged some emails

18:13

and things and ended up interning

18:15

there that summer between my first

18:17

and second year of grad school . And

18:20

then , you know , when I was graduating they

18:22

had a job posted for

18:24

a program coordinator and I

18:26

applied and that

18:29

was my first job . So it was at a state

18:31

health department which in that sense I feel

18:33

like , was clearly

18:35

like one of the public health pads

18:37

that I knew existed and , you

18:39

know , thought might be interesting . So

18:42

I feel like I learned so much

18:44

, I mean both in the internship and in the

18:46

actual year plus that I

18:48

worked there . I think state

18:51

and local health departments are

18:53

often , even

18:56

as a entry level

18:58

kind of person , had

19:01

what felt , certainly at the time , like

19:03

a lot of ownership over the particular

19:05

program I was managing . So I feel like

19:07

it was just an amazing

19:09

opportunity to learn

19:13

a lot and actually has

19:15

ownership , at least in this little bubble

19:17

, so I really appreciated those

19:20

aspects of it . I think there are other aspects

19:22

around , you know , low pay

19:24

and government bureaucracy and

19:26

things like that that made it hard to

19:28

stick it out for very long .

19:32

And so where did kind of like the next

19:34

path lead you to ? Because I think you spent

19:37

about a year or so in that role

19:39

and then yeah , yeah , so

19:41

I was there for a year .

19:42

So and again like actually

19:44

really loved a lot of aspects

19:46

of the work and going out . I was managing

19:50

the youth violence and

19:52

bullying prevention program and was going

19:54

out to schools across the state on , which

19:56

actually connects to some of the work I do now

19:58

actually . So I've always I

20:00

really appreciated being able

20:02

to be out directly in communities

20:05

and in different communities across the state

20:07

and all of that was wonderful . I think

20:09

it really was combination

20:11

of just like bureaucracy and like the struggle

20:14

to no-transcript implement

20:16

new or

20:19

different ideas and

20:21

all of that kind of contributed to it

20:23

. And again , I feel like

20:25

really in

20:28

many ways accidental , unanticipated

20:31

moves . It wasn't anything super

20:34

thought out . I did want to go back to DC

20:36

. I had interned in DC , you know , summers

20:38

in college and things and wanted to go

20:40

back there and I knew there was a lot of public health

20:42

work in DC . And I actually

20:45

reached out to my mentor from grad school

20:47

and was like , hey , trying to , you

20:49

know , find work in DC , let

20:51

me know . And he was like , oh , my

20:53

colleague is hiring for her research

20:55

team on the truth anti smoking

20:58

campaign . So the

21:01

truth anti smoking campaign is

21:03

one of the few well

21:05

funded public health communication campaigns

21:08

because of the way the funding was structured

21:10

. So when all of the state attorney

21:12

generals in the US essentially

21:15

sued the tobacco companies for basically defrauding

21:17

the public and there was big master settlement agreement

21:19

there's actually a similar one with opioid companies

21:21

now that funding is rolling out

21:23

now but similarly in the 90s

21:26

for the tobacco companies they had this

21:28

master settlement agreement and they

21:30

basically set aside a portion

21:32

of those funds , almost the way universities

21:35

do an endowment , and they funded this

21:37

sort of independent nonprofit

21:39

entity that used to be

21:42

called the Legacy Foundation and is now called

21:44

Truth Initiative to

21:46

do this mass media

21:48

campaign and they had in house

21:50

research and evaluation team . Anyway

21:52

, it was literally , yeah , a random outreach

21:54

to a mentor from grad school and he said

21:57

, oh , she's hiring , I applied and

21:59

then was there for several years actually

22:01

.

22:02

And this was in like a research role

22:05

right .

22:05

Research and evaluation role . So yeah , so I went

22:07

from kind of program managing

22:10

, a more on the ground kind of program

22:12

, to very much research and evaluation

22:15

.

22:16

What are your thoughts on taking

22:18

like similar roles but there's

22:20

different skill sets that you're learning early

22:23

on in your career and trying a little

22:25

bit of everything in the beginning to figure

22:27

out like where is it that your interests

22:29

and your strengths lie ?

22:31

Right , right , and I think , yeah , this

22:33

goes back to kind of those pearls on a necklace

22:35

kind of idea , like I feel like

22:37

state health department was

22:40

doing a little bit of everything

22:43

. You know , I was doing a little bit of research and evaluation

22:45

because like there wasn't , you know , a separate research

22:47

and evaluation team . The person who programmed

22:49

it , all the things so you know is doing

22:52

on site trainings

22:54

and talks at schools . I was

22:56

doing some like survey development

22:58

and evaluation and some reporting

23:00

, some like creation of communication materials

23:03

, like a little bit of all the things

23:05

, and then at truth really

23:07

got a very in depth orientation

23:10

both to health communications and

23:12

you know we were not involved

23:15

directly in developing the messaging

23:17

and things like that , but we kind of saw

23:19

the reality of how that all worked

23:21

and at truth again , because

23:24

it is one of the few

23:27

unusually well funded public health

23:29

campaigns . You know they worked with professional

23:31

marketing agencies . You

23:33

know , did like a full gamut of market

23:36

research , the way that companies do

23:38

, and all of that , and sort of saw

23:40

how the creative side of it came together

23:42

. And then , of course , was directly involved in like the

23:44

research evaluation side of it and

23:47

saw what you know a large scale

23:49

evaluation of a national campaign

23:51

looked like all of the nuances and details

23:54

of that . So , yeah , learned a lot

23:56

and ultimately , again like my move from

23:58

truth was really motivated by I

24:01

was feeling very siloed , like I'm getting

24:03

deeper and deeper into this tobacco prevention and

24:05

control work and like I was sort of like

24:07

where's my big public health

24:09

upstream determinants ? Everything is interconnected

24:12

stuff , and so I

24:14

actually went specifically looking for

24:16

like where could I work in

24:18

DC that actually does

24:20

that ? And that's sort of

24:22

how I found Trust for America's

24:25

Health , which I had like read

24:27

about and heard about in grad school and stuff . But

24:29

and it's a very small in terms of number

24:31

of employees , small nonprofit

24:34

, but they very much work

24:36

across topics , like they're not working

24:38

on a particular public health issue , they're

24:40

working on public health for at large and trying

24:42

to make the case for policy

24:44

change in a way that cuts

24:47

across issues and I mean not to say they don't have

24:49

some like specific topics they work

24:51

on . But especially when I started there , the

24:53

very first report for them that

24:55

I worked on was their blueprint that

24:57

they do every four years . That's kind

24:59

of big picture of public health policy

25:01

recommendations for the new administration

25:03

, and so that's

25:06

sort of what . What took me to Trust for America's

25:08

Health was an interest in getting at

25:10

that like cross cutting type

25:13

approach and also a more

25:15

policy lens as well .

25:17

Yeah , and as you're kind of talking

25:19

through each of the roles that you've held

25:21

, I keep thinking back to the pearls on

25:23

the necklace and like I visually

25:25

have your LinkedIn profile open . So I'm like following

25:27

along and I can

25:29

picture that right , like you went from

25:31

knowing how to like

25:34

work on a program at the state level

25:36

and then you're like going into work on some

25:38

data as a researcher and

25:41

then going into communication , and I'm assuming

25:43

that interest grew more

25:45

when you were at Truth Initiative because you're exposed

25:48

to stakeholders kind of in

25:50

that field and the marketing companies . So

25:53

I think for our listeners

25:55

sometimes , when they listen to

25:57

stories or the journeys of

25:59

more established public

26:01

health practitioners , it feels like this

26:04

, like perfect line that they were

26:06

able to follow , and

26:09

we know that it's not like that

26:11

right , they think about my own journey

26:14

. It looks perfect on

26:16

paper but I think sometimes

26:18

you question your decisions , sometimes

26:21

you get opportunities that you have to pass over

26:23

because it's just not aligned , but

26:25

then when you look at it on LinkedIn

26:27

, it looks perfect .

26:29

Well , that's the thing . It's like the retrospect , I mean . This is where , like

26:31

sometimes , I worry that my inclination

26:34

towards storytelling does a disservice

26:36

to what you're talking about , which is the reality

26:38

that , like nothing , feels like

26:40

a story that makes sense when you're in it

26:42

right . Like none of my moves

26:45

were all

26:47

that intentional or planned

26:49

and like none of it made sense at

26:51

the time , like it was just sort of an

26:54

Opportunity presented itself . It

26:56

sort of checked enough boxes that I wanted

26:58

to do it and I did it , and sort

27:00

of ten years down the road , looking

27:03

at it in the rear view mirror , you can

27:05

tell a story that makes it all connect

27:07

and feels like pearls on a necklace or whatever

27:09

, but like in the moment , none of it

27:11

felt that way and I think it often

27:13

doesn't and that's okay

27:15

, like I think that , whether

27:18

we See it or

27:20

not , you know , we are all

27:22

the sum of the experiences

27:24

we've had and that will

27:27

Eventually , you know , find a way to

27:29

shine through .

27:30

Yeah , I Sometimes

27:32

get to run this workshop . I call it

27:34

career road mapping and

27:37

it's about like figuring out what

27:39

you want to do next in your career

27:41

. But I often start that

27:43

workshop and I dedicate a lot of time for

27:46

people to sit and just quietly reflect

27:48

on the path that they came

27:50

from and like write down everything that

27:52

they've done . And Every

27:54

single time I've done that , when I ask

27:57

people to share kind of just the emotions

27:59

that came up , everyone is

28:01

often very proud of everything

28:03

they've done , which they didn't realized

28:06

when they came to that workshop . And

28:08

and I tell people that you can do this stuff

28:11

regularly every year . So to just

28:13

think back to where you've come and

28:15

put that story together , if you will

28:17

right like sometimes it's , you don't need to be on

28:19

a podcast to tell you a story . You can sit

28:21

at your desk and and reflect and be

28:23

really proud of the decisions you've had

28:25

to make in the pivots and I

28:28

think sometimes it empowers us to

28:30

Put a little bit of a story

28:33

to all the different things

28:35

that we've done .

28:36

Right now . It's a really good . It's a really

28:38

good point that that in and

28:40

of itself can provide

28:43

some confidence . You

28:46

know , pride , as you were saying exactly .

28:48

Yeah , yeah yeah . I had a

28:50

Period where I thought

28:52

maybe I wanted to go into like migration

28:54

, health or something .

28:55

Okay , yeah , and .

28:57

I was . I remember thinking I was like oh man

28:59

, I built my entire career on

29:01

like infectious disease epidemiology . There's

29:03

no way , like I have

29:05

any experience to like using an application

29:08

, but kind of like reflecting

29:10

back , you end up finding the little threads

29:12

of where you did work on those

29:14

topics and it actually was

29:16

there throughout these past few years and

29:18

you end up like telling that story if you don't look for

29:21

the story .

29:23

That's right . That's right

29:25

. I find that comes through for me a

29:27

lot now as a consultant

29:29

, when you know I'm submitting

29:32

in response to , like a request for proposal

29:34

, or even just you know Someone's

29:36

reaching out and I'm at . You know , tell

29:38

me a little bit about your experience in this space

29:40

is exactly what you're saying . So yeah

29:42

, oh yeah , like I forgot , there was like

29:45

this little thread and this little Start

29:47

putting them together and it kind of all

29:49

adds up , even if you it wasn't

29:52

really like top of mind .

29:53

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . That's

29:55

a good segue to Talking

29:58

about the next pivot you made in your

30:00

career and ended up , I

30:02

guess , working for yourself and founded

30:04

a company called pop health . So how

30:07

did that happen and why did it happen

30:09

?

30:09

Yeah , absolutely . So . Here is another

30:11

. I will share

30:14

what what it was like and what the motivating

30:16

factors were in real time

30:19

. And then kind of the story

30:21

that Appears in retrospect

30:23

but I think at the time it

30:25

was Largely , if not

30:28

entirely , practically motivated . So

30:30

I was working at trust for America's health . I

30:32

made the transition from working on the

30:34

truth campaign to trust for America's health

30:36

while I was getting my DRPH

30:39

part-time . So I had already started

30:41

that while I was at truth and then , like

30:43

transition to trust for America's health , was still

30:45

working on my DRPH

30:48

part-time and I

30:50

Defended my dissertation

30:52

proposal so not the actual dissertation

30:54

, but the phase before that defended my proposal

30:57

when I was like seven and a half , eight

30:59

months pregnant and then Then

31:02

went on maternity leave from

31:04

work and then after

31:07

a few months came back To

31:09

working full-time in DC we live

31:11

in Northern Virginia so I was commuting like an hour

31:14

each way , five days a week , working

31:16

full-time , coming back home

31:18

to Wanting to

31:20

spend time with the baby , and then was sort of

31:22

like , hmm , I have this dissertation

31:25

that I'm supposed to be working on

31:27

and writing and I don't

31:29

think this All adds up . The

31:31

math isn't method , as they say , and

31:34

so I was like , okay , what

31:36

do I do ? And it's very funny thinking

31:38

about this now , sort of like again

31:40

with COVID , and like the way things changed

31:43

and whatever . But at the time when

31:46

I , you know , went to my employer and was

31:48

like , hey , can I Work

31:50

from home once or twice a week

31:52

? Can I switch to part-time

31:55

? And they're basically like no , hmm . So

31:57

I was like , alright , peace out , like this

31:59

isn't gonna work . And so On

32:02

my way out I was like you know , I was working on a couple

32:04

projects . At the time I was like , you know , if you want

32:06

me to continue to support

32:08

those projects in a consulting capacity , I'm

32:10

happy to do that . You know , just be working

32:12

on my dissertation , so I have some time

32:14

. And they were like , yes

32:16

, let's do that . And so I

32:19

started off during the period I

32:21

was working on my dissertation at trust , for Marcus

32:24

health was my only client and I was like

32:26

very part-time , just , you know , working

32:29

on some projects there Finished

32:31

my dissertation , you know , had

32:34

the time to like spend more time at

32:36

home and with the baby and all of these things

32:38

finish the dissertation graduated and

32:40

then I was , like you know , I sort

32:42

of started Consulting , like maybe

32:45

I can see if I can just turn this into

32:47

what I do . And so it started almost

32:50

as a little experiment of like okay

32:52

, let's Do some networking

32:55

, talk to some people , see if I

32:57

can get more clients

33:00

, or what have you , and then it just

33:02

sort of slowly , slowly

33:05

grew from there .

33:07

Wow . And so , when you think

33:09

back , what is this story here

33:11

?

33:12

Yes , oh yes , thank you for reminding

33:14

me the second part of it . The story

33:16

which I feel like only became

33:19

Super clear in retrospect

33:21

, is that while I was working at trust

33:23

for America's health so again I came specifically

33:26

because I was like I want to work at this intersection

33:29

of different public health topics , I

33:31

want to think upstream , I want to think about policy

33:33

systems change I actually loved

33:36

all like that is what working

33:38

at trust for America's health was all of those

33:40

things and I loved it and

33:43

At the same time I found

33:45

myself feeling so Disconnected

33:48

, like I was like we're doing this sort of 30,000

33:51

foot level policy research , we're

33:53

putting out these reports , but

33:55

like I don't Know what's

33:58

happening on the ground , I don't know that

34:00

communities are , you know , are

34:03

they getting these reports ? Are they looking at

34:05

them ? Is any of this like translating

34:07

at that level ? Like I know , at

34:09

trust for America's health , they , you know , they had a government

34:11

affairs team . They were , you know , working

34:13

with taking these policy recommendations

34:15

to Congress . They were absolutely , you

34:17

know , moving forward at that level . But for me

34:20

personally , I was just like and

34:22

again , kind of those state health department

34:24

roots , like I used to be out in these communities

34:26

, and I was just like I feel really

34:28

disconnected . And so I

34:32

knew that when I hit

34:34

this point where I was like , okay , let me see if I can turn

34:36

this consulting thing into something

34:38

, I knew

34:40

that for it

34:42

to be

34:44

satisfying to me , you know , I wanted

34:47

to see if I could create something that

34:49

would be a bridge between this 30,000

34:52

foot policy level and the communities

34:54

where the work is actually taking place . And

34:57

so eventually

34:59

and it took a while I feel like when you're starting your

35:01

own consulting practice and building it up , at

35:03

the beginning it was definitely like I'll

35:06

do almost anything that anyone is

35:08

interested in hiring me to do . But

35:10

once sort of I hit like a certain

35:13

level of having built things up

35:15

when I started focusing

35:17

down on like what I wanted in my consulting

35:19

practice to focus on . I was very

35:22

much thinking about like how

35:24

can I do things that will help bridge

35:26

, like I still want to do that policy

35:29

, systems upstream work and

35:32

I want to feel more connected to communities

35:34

and to be able to bridge that piece

35:37

. And so in consulting they talk

35:39

a lot about like meaching down . So when I

35:41

finally sort of niche down

35:43

, popped health , that was my

35:45

goal and I really

35:48

am now focused on

35:50

working with community coalitions

35:52

and collaboratives that are trying to transform

35:55

health in their communities through policy and systems

35:57

change and really try

35:59

to kind of be this bridge to

36:02

. You know , there's lots of great research

36:04

and tools and strategies and information

36:07

around . How do we collaborate

36:10

with community , how do we collaborate across

36:12

multi-center coalitions ? How

36:15

do we engage in action planning and

36:17

strategic planning ? How do we do

36:19

evaluation in a way that's participatory

36:21

and how do we tell our stories

36:23

, evaluation and impact in all of

36:26

these things ? And so those are the

36:28

things I now focus on working with community

36:30

coalitions and collaboratives that are on

36:32

the ground in their communities and really

36:34

trying to bring this support and extend

36:36

their capacity and build their capacity

36:39

to do these kinds of things .

36:41

And so like , what exactly are like

36:43

services that they're getting from PopHealth

36:45

? Are you developing communication products

36:47

for them or are you facilitating

36:50

workshops or things

36:52

like that ?

36:53

Yeah , so you're actually capturing

36:55

the transition that PopHealth is currently

36:58

in . So I feel like right now we do

37:00

a little bit of both of those things . But

37:02

, yeah , our main areas of services

37:04

are in the areas of community

37:07

collaborations and that looks very

37:09

different in every community and depending on the

37:11

topic and the group and whatever . But

37:13

basically , how do we make

37:15

this work community driven ? How

37:17

do we work with community members

37:19

? How do we make sure their input

37:22

is not just captured but

37:24

also driving whatever is

37:26

happening ? And also that collaboration

37:29

across multi-sector coalitions like there's

37:31

a lot just in how

37:33

do we work together as a coalition or

37:35

a collaborative across organizations

37:37

and sectors . And then we do a lot of meeting

37:39

, facilitation , that sort of thing

37:41

with coalitions to help them work

37:44

together more effectively . And also around

37:46

action planning . So actually moving

37:48

them through kind of like visioning

37:50

and coming up with aims to what does that mean for

37:53

specific action steps you're gonna

37:55

take and who's gonna take them and what's

37:57

that gonna look like . And really getting

37:59

granular with that . We do

38:01

evaluation and monitoring

38:03

, evaluation and learning services and helping

38:06

coalitions and collaboratives

38:08

track their impacts , gather

38:10

data , tell the stories and then

38:12

effective storytelling . So really

38:15

thinking about how , what

38:17

stories are we sharing ? How are we sharing

38:19

them ? How can we make our communication compelling

38:21

, digestible , understandable to community

38:24

members ? So right

38:26

now , with a lot of the coalitions

38:28

we work with , we are really

38:30

like in their facilitating meetings

38:33

. We are writing action plans

38:35

, we are gathering data for evaluation

38:38

and synthesizing it , creating

38:40

communication products , all of those things

38:42

. And I think , as Pop

38:44

Health has grown and as we

38:47

collectively and I personally , kind of

38:49

start to hit capacity in terms of

38:51

like there are no more hours in the week

38:53

we are currently in a phase , I would

38:55

say , of sort of transitioning a little bit

38:57

more to how

39:00

can we build the capacity of coalitions

39:02

to do this work , so thinking a little bit

39:04

more about trainings and workshops

39:07

and other ways to get information out there

39:09

. We have a biweekly newsletter that

39:11

we're really have been gearing up

39:13

recently to really put these

39:15

strategies and tools in the hands of coalitions

39:18

and hoping

39:20

to move more in that direction

39:23

and that feels a little bit more scalable

39:25

, where we can still be this bridge between

39:28

the big picture policy systems , change

39:30

in communities but maybe do

39:32

that in a way where we can scale

39:34

a little bit and work with more coalitions

39:37

without running out of our own

39:39

time .

39:39

So when you have your own company

39:42

and I know you like talking about solo partnership

39:44

and entrepreneurship a lot as well you're

39:47

just learning how to not

39:49

only like deliver services

39:51

to your clients , but also

39:53

trying to figure out , like , how do I take this

39:56

business that I've created and

39:58

make it functional and sustainable ? And you're kind

40:00

of having to like pivot within

40:02

that itself as well , right yeah 100%

40:05

. This has been such a lovely chat

40:07

, venu and I know when we

40:09

recorded the other episode

40:11

with Leah and talked about self-employment

40:14

in public health , we did say that that

40:16

conversation didn't end Just

40:19

yet . We have a lot more to talk about and

40:21

so for anyone listening

40:23

who's like wondering why I didn't get to

40:25

dive deeper into pop health

40:27

and kind of like that journey , we're hoping we can do

40:30

that in a different episode

40:32

and this was exclusively

40:34

just to learn about the journey that Venu

40:36

has taken and all the pearls that

40:39

she's collected on that necklace

40:41

. So thank you so much for joining me on this

40:43

episode .

40:44

I'm pleasure . Thanks so much for having me

40:46

. Hey , I hope you enjoyed that episode .

40:49

And if you want to get the links or information

40:51

mentioned in today's episode , you

40:55

can head over to phspotorg slash podcast and

40:57

we'll have everything there for you . And

40:59

before you go , I want to tell you about the Public

41:01

Health Career Club . So

41:03

if you've been looking for a place to connect

41:06

and build meaningful relationships

41:08

with other public health professionals from

41:11

all around the world , you should join us in the public

41:13

health community . From all

41:15

around the world . You should join us in

41:17

the Public Health Career Club . We launched

41:19

the club with the vision of becoming the

41:21

number one hangout spot dedicated

41:23

to building and growing your dream public

41:26

health career . And in addition to

41:28

being able to connect and build those

41:30

meaningful relationships with other public

41:32

health professionals , the club also offers

41:35

other great resources for your

41:37

career growth and success , like mindset

41:39

coaching , job preparation clinics and

41:42

career growth strategy sessions in the form

41:44

of trainings and talks , all delivered

41:46

by experts and inspiring individuals

41:48

in these areas . So if you want to learn

41:50

more or want to join the club , you

41:53

can visit our page

41:55

at phspotorg slash

41:57

club and we'll have all the information there

41:59

. And as a space

42:01

that's being intentionally curated to

42:03

bring together like-minded public health

42:05

professionals who are not

42:07

only there to push themselves to become

42:10

the best versions of themselves , but also each

42:12

other , and

42:14

with that I can't wait to see

42:17

how this is going to have a ripple effect in

42:19

the world , as we all work together to

42:21

better the health of our populations

42:23

and just have immense impact

42:25

in the world , and I hope you'll be joining

42:27

us in the Public Health Career Club .