0:14

Hi , I'm Eloy Ortiz-Oakley and

0:16

welcome back to the Rant , the podcast

0:18

where we pull back the curtain and break down the

0:20

people , the policies and the politics

0:23

of our higher education system . In

0:25

this episode , we dive back into

0:28

a really important issue that we've been

0:30

covering lately online

0:32

program management companies , otherwise known

0:34

as OPMs and today

0:36

we are specifically talking about

0:38

and talking with academic

0:40

partnerships , or AP . As

0:46

you recall , in one of my previous episodes , I sat down with Phil Hill and we had a lengthy discussion

0:49

about the OPM marketplace and

0:51

, specifically , the drama

0:54

surrounding 2U . So

0:56

today I have the opportunity to

0:58

sit down with the CEO of

1:01

one of the more successful OPMs in

1:03

the country , fernando

1:05

Blakechmar . Fernando

1:07

leads academic partnerships and

1:09

his organization is leading

1:11

work throughout the nation , building partnerships

1:14

with colleges and universities

1:16

to offer online programs , and

1:19

is an important player in the OPM marketplace

1:22

. So , with that backdrop

1:24

today , please join me in welcoming

1:26

Fernando . Fernando . Welcome

1:29

to the Rant .

1:30

Thank you so much for having me , Eloy , and

1:32

great to see you again .

1:34

Good to see you too , and thanks for being

1:36

willing to spend a little bit of time . I know how busy

1:38

you are . So , fernando

1:40

, you lead one of the better-known

1:43

online program management companies

1:45

Academic Partnerships . Tell

1:48

us about AP's mission

1:50

, some of its history and

1:53

how you differentiate yourself in

1:55

this OPM marketplace , which has gotten

1:58

kind of wild lately .

2:00

Yeah , thanks , silo , and great

2:03

to be here . Yeah , thanks , silo , and great

2:05

to be here . So

2:09

, interestingly , I think there's a lot of conversation about OPMs but there's

2:11

not a lot of our conversation of what we do and why

2:13

we exist . So and it's interesting

2:15

because it gets a little bit lost in dialogue

2:17

Right , our mission at AP is very

2:19

simple . We work with

2:22

mostly regional universities to

2:24

help them expand access

2:26

to affordable , high-value

2:29

programs and in

2:32

workforce-ready areas , especially

2:35

nursing education

2:38

business . We

2:48

think that we are helping universities that otherwise might struggle to

2:50

compete in a changing world where a lot of students want to learn

2:52

and obtain their degrees or their skills

2:54

online . We bring

2:56

the skill set , the capabilities , the

2:59

capital to help some

3:01

of those universities increase

3:03

access , basically , and increase

3:05

it with a view

3:07

to affordability and very high

3:10

ROI . I think the part that

3:12

gets a little bit lost in the dialogue

3:14

is what are the outcomes

3:16

? Right , and what

3:19

we are very proud of of what we

3:21

do at Academic Partnerships is because

3:24

of the type of schools we partner on , because

3:26

of the types of students . We focus on the

3:30

ROI numbers that we just published

3:32

a very big report with a third-party

3:34

company called Ipsos and the numbers

3:37

are really , really good . The

3:39

graduates take an

3:41

average of 1.2 years

3:43

to pay for their degree , so

3:46

our average degree is , let's

3:48

call it , $15,000 for

3:50

the entire degree and with

3:53

the increasing salary that someone has

3:55

after they graduate , their average increasing

3:57

salary is $13,000 . So

4:00

, just with the increasing salary they pay

4:02

in 1.2 years , 85%

4:05

of graduates say that the degree was

4:07

worth the investments . 54%

4:11

of students actually don't take any

4:13

debt and the ones that take

4:15

debt the 46%

4:17

that takes debt take an average of $6,000

4:20

. So , really

4:22

, what we look at in our

4:24

mission and what we focus on is are

4:27

we helping solve some

4:29

of these critical shortages

4:31

for teachers , for nurses

4:34

, for people to upskill

4:36

more complex world in a way that delivers high ROI and

4:49

doesn't create burdens

4:51

, doesn't add to the debt crisis

4:54

, et cetera ? So that's what we focus

4:56

on , that's what we do . I

4:58

think sometimes in the dialogue of OPMs

5:00

, what's a little bit lost is why

5:03

does this company exist ? And this company

5:05

in our case , we exist because we

5:08

think it's critical what we do

5:10

to help the schools we work

5:12

with to expand access for

5:14

a really great product that they have for

5:17

students that otherwise might not be

5:19

able to do it because they're mostly working

5:22

adults .

5:23

You hit on something that's critically important

5:25

, particularly in the conversation in post-secondary

5:27

education , this conversation

5:30

around ROI , the return on investment

5:32

and creating value for learners

5:34

. This is something that certainly

5:36

learners are paying attention to because

5:39

they are voting with their feet , they're

5:41

making statements every day about

5:43

whether or not to attend post-secondary education

5:45

because whether they see the value

5:48

or not in the

5:50

price that they're paying , the investment they're making . We

5:52

have a huge conversation in the country

5:54

around debt , and

5:57

so there's this question about what

5:59

is the return on investment ? Of course and

6:02

I understand that you're in an industry that's been

6:04

sort of painted with a broad

6:07

brush and what people think about

6:09

is one example here in Southern California

6:12

, with a specific university in

6:14

Southern California that

6:16

, for their learners , did not

6:18

have much of an ROI . So what

6:21

kind of programs are you supporting

6:23

your university partners

6:25

with ? Give us some idea of what those

6:27

programs are and

6:29

how do your university partners

6:32

you know ? What does that partnership look like ?

6:35

Yeah , so we have over

6:37

now with a combination

6:39

of AP and Wiley

6:42

University Services . We have over a hundred

6:44

and 15 partners

6:46

. We

6:49

offer I mean , we serve universities

6:52

that that we support over a hundred thousand students

6:54

. So we have a pretty good sense of

6:56

who that student is . They're

6:58

mostly working adults Right

7:00

In their thirties

7:02

, a lot of first-generation

7:04

students , and what

7:07

they're looking for is an

7:10

affordable experience

7:12

that they think that they can succeed

7:14

on and that will allow

7:16

them to increase social

7:18

mobility . It's worth their

7:20

money and also

7:23

allows you that feeling of achievement

7:25

and improvement and so

7:27

forth . A lot of them , as I said , are

7:30

females in nursing , in teaching

7:33

and education , people

7:35

in business . We're

7:37

seeing more and more undergrad but

7:40

working adult undergrad

7:42

. So think about people that started

7:44

an undergrad and didn't finish it

7:47

and now they're looking for an online

7:49

option that's affordable to finish that

7:51

undergrad and improve their career . And

7:53

what we really focus on is we

7:56

want to partner with schools that we

7:58

can help , that our

8:00

expertise , our capital

8:02

, our experience , our

8:04

retention , enrollment

8:07

, marketing capabilities are useful for them

8:09

and what we

8:11

think the product is ultimately a really good product

8:13

and for us , graduation

8:16

rates and retention rates are very

8:18

important , but ROI

8:21

and outcomes is

8:23

the ultimate measure . And

8:26

I think you're right . There is a bit of a

8:28

crisis of confidence . But

8:30

when people talk about the crisis of confidence

8:32

they don't segment the different populations

8:35

. I mean , everybody thinks

8:37

of the . I was looking yesterday that in

8:39

some of the Northeast schools the average yearly

8:41

tuition is up to $90,000

8:44

per year for an undergrad . That's crazy

8:46

. I mean , it's

8:48

a big number . Our average tuition

8:50

for the entire program is $15,000

8:53

and you pay it in a

8:56

year after you graduate , with just your increasing

8:58

salary . So we're talking about very different

9:00

populations and very

9:02

different needs . We are very focused

9:05

on what we believe is a great product

9:07

that our partners offer and

9:09

our job is to increase

9:11

access and to help people

9:14

to get those outcomes

9:16

and get that ROI .

9:18

So how did AP get

9:21

started ? What were those first partnerships

9:23

like and how do your university partners

9:25

find you ?

9:27

It's a company that's been around for call

9:29

it 15 or so years and

9:31

it was always focused on

9:33

. It started with regional public

9:36

universities , many of which are still customers

9:38

, and that's a testament to

9:40

the value add and to the relationship

9:43

, and then it

9:46

started growing over

9:48

time . But what I think is very

9:50

valuable is that it always stayed true

9:52

to its mission . This idea of

9:54

regional education

9:56

really matters . Affordability really

9:58

matters . Workforce-focused

10:01

areas really matter . It

10:04

never deviated from it and

10:06

then the way our customers find us

10:08

is a lot of it is through referrals . As

10:11

you know , higher education there's a lot of changes in

10:13

leadership between schools , so

10:15

there's a lot of people that know us and then go to different

10:18

schools , et cetera , and then usual

10:20

events and things

10:23

. What most people don't know

10:25

and this is something that

10:27

always surprised people

10:29

that don't spend time thinking about regional

10:31

universities is

10:33

that the degree of online penetration

10:36

on regional universities is actually fairly

10:38

low . It's around 30

10:40

to 40 percent . So

10:43

there's a lot of room for a lot of these

10:45

schools that need to move online because

10:47

their students are demanding

10:49

it , but they haven't done it yet . And

10:52

when people think , oh , it's a completely

10:55

saturated market , that's

10:57

because most people think about tier ones . They

10:59

think about the top 50

11:02

schools , et cetera , which they've been around for a

11:04

long time online , but we

11:06

signed a partner recently that has many

11:09

thousands of students in campus

11:11

and has not launched online

11:13

. We

11:15

think there's a ton of pent-up demand . We

11:18

think there's a lot of not only

11:20

online growth that we see in the latest data of 9% online growth , not only

11:22

online growth that we see in the latest data of 9% online growth

11:24

. But there's a lot of people that

11:27

want to do online programs in universities

11:29

they know and recognize and it's

11:31

attached to their local communities , but

11:34

are not able to because the schools don't offer

11:36

it yet . Right , and that's where we

11:38

come in .

11:41

We help those schools reach those students . As I hear you talking , I

11:43

think , of two examples

11:45

that I'm very familiar with the California State

11:47

University system and the University

11:50

of Massachusetts system . University of Massachusetts

11:52

system because I was very familiar

11:54

with Brandman University . Umass

11:56

acquired Brandman changed

11:59

the name to UMass Global and the reason

12:01

was they needed to build an

12:03

online presence . They wanted

12:06

to reach more learners and in

12:08

that example , they wanted to acquire

12:11

that skill set , that

12:13

core competency . And in the

12:15

California State University system , of course

12:17

, they need to

12:19

increase their online presence

12:21

and these are capacities

12:25

that just don't exist in some of these four-year

12:27

regionals . They're not as well-funded

12:29

. So I can

12:31

certainly see the demand , the need

12:34

, and particularly in this marketplace where

12:36

more and more there

12:38

is a need to push into a

12:41

demographic of learner that is not coming

12:43

on campus , that they're working . So

12:46

I would imagine those

12:48

are the kinds of clients

12:51

that you're finding . Those are the kinds

12:53

of four-year regionals that you're

12:55

interested in , because , given

12:57

the decline in enrollment in K-12

13:00

, given the demand for workforce

13:02

skills , this has got to be a population

13:05

that many four-year

13:07

regionals have to expand

13:09

into .

13:10

Yeah , I think that's right . I think that's

13:14

part of it , but the other part of it is that it's

13:17

in their mandate . I mean , you have

13:19

a population that needs to be re-skilled

13:21

, you have crises

13:23

, I think , in shortage of nurses

13:25

. That's the mandate . The mandate

13:28

is for these schools is to deliver

13:30

on that social

13:37

mobility , on that access , on

13:39

that affordability . So that's

13:41

where we think we are very helpful

13:44

. The thing that's very

13:46

interesting about the population

13:48

is that most

13:50

of these students , when

13:52

they apply to school , they only apply

13:55

to one or two schools and

13:57

they always prefer schools

14:00

they know . So there's a local relationship

14:03

. That's very important , right ? So there's

14:05

a lot of students that if the

14:07

school I know doesn't offer online

14:09

, it's not like I'm going to go and sign up to

14:12

a different one , I might just forego . It's

14:14

not like I'm going to go and sign up to a different one , I might just forego . So it

14:16

becomes a loss to the system , if you will

14:18

. It's not just a loss to the revenue

14:20

or the opportunity for the university . It's

14:23

actually that some of those students might not

14:25

do the upskilling , might not get

14:27

the degree they need to get , et cetera , to advance their

14:29

careers . So access

14:32

is this idea that if I

14:34

don't do it , someone else will do it . It

14:37

doesn't really work like that . So I think

14:40

there's a lot of talk about the debt

14:42

crisis . I think the

14:45

shortage crisis and

14:48

the access crisis also need to be

14:50

combined during that

14:52

conversation , as well

14:54

as the confidence one that you mentioned .

14:57

So you mentioned that you recently acquired

15:00

Wiley

15:02

. What does this acquisition do

15:05

for academic partnerships and

15:07

how does it benefit your learners ?

15:10

Yeah . So , as I said , we

15:12

fundamentally believe that this is a growing

15:14

market and that online needs

15:16

to grow and that there's a lot of schools

15:18

that need help . And what

15:21

we liked about bringing together AP

15:23

and Wiley was that scale

15:25

matters in this market . So

15:27

there is more and more required

15:29

investment in technology , in

15:32

infrastructure , in new capabilities

15:34

. So that's what

15:36

this allows us to do is to bring

15:38

scale , and that

15:41

, for our university partners , basically

15:43

means more resources that we can

15:45

invest better , more

15:47

efficiency and effectiveness that we can pass

15:49

on to them . And we're

15:52

trying to create advantages

15:54

of being part of a network as well . So

15:57

we have 115 universities . So

16:00

, for example , when we start talking to employers

16:02

that have needs of

16:05

reskilling or upskilling across

16:07

the US , saying like

16:09

, look , we can help you because we have a

16:11

network that everybody can

16:13

get someone to help upscale

16:15

in Chicago Much harder

16:17

to do it in Southeast Oklahoma

16:20

or in Arkansas or in many

16:22

other places where we have

16:25

this relationship with partners . So

16:27

that's the other part of scale

16:30

that we're very excited about

16:32

, and we're starting to

16:34

spend more time thinking about how do we

16:36

work in that connection with employers

16:38

and universities and we can bring

16:40

our scale . So

16:43

that was the idea of the acquisition

16:45

. What will not change is

16:48

what we focus on , which is this

16:50

idea of workforce , relevant , high

16:52

quality , high ROI programs

16:55

, because that's the essence

16:57

of what we're

16:59

good at and what we think we bring to

17:02

the picture .

17:03

So if I'm a learner and

17:06

I'm accessing an online

17:08

program through my regional university

17:11

that academic partnerships

17:13

manages , what would I

17:15

expect to see ? What is that experience

17:18

like ?

17:19

The experience is

17:21

you probably initiated some sort

17:23

of action . You're interested . You

17:26

either went to Google , you

17:28

went to a hospital

17:31

. In the hospital we have people that go there and

17:33

organize talks for nurses

17:35

that want to upskill

17:37

and get the next degree . So you

17:39

probably initiated some sort of action

17:42

, or skip you will . And

17:45

you said look , I'm interested in Arkansas

17:48

State MBA . Then

17:52

we said , okay , if you're interested

17:54

, why don't you fill out a form ? You

17:57

fill out the form and then someone

17:59

calls you and

18:01

explains the program , and explains

18:04

what are the requirements , what the program

18:06

is about , what

18:08

are the needs , and helps

18:11

you through that decision process and

18:13

it's a long process . I mean this is a very

18:16

important decision for

18:18

students . So from

18:20

when you fill a lead form to when you

18:22

enroll , it might be eight

18:24

months , a year of

18:27

discussing , understanding

18:29

, comparison , shopping , making sure your life

18:31

is alive , et cetera . So

18:33

once that happens and

18:36

you're ready to go , we actually

18:38

just pass you to the university

18:40

and your learning

18:42

relationship , your teachers , your

18:45

pedagogy , your experience is all

18:48

done by the university . What

18:51

we then add is a layer of

18:53

student support , and

18:55

not academic support , but more the

18:58

usual support that happens between

19:00

semesters

19:03

or I don't know how to do this

19:05

or more of

19:07

that student support to

19:10

help on retention as

19:12

much as we can . So

19:14

that's the experience . So most of most

19:16

students , their , their main connection

19:19

is with someone until

19:21

they enroll is with someone that

19:23

that is working on behalf

19:25

of the university with us , and

19:28

then , once they enroll , their

19:31

main relationship is with the university

19:33

, which is the way it should be . So

19:35

that's that's what you should experience as

19:38

a student . If we get it right

19:40

, there's an 80 plus

19:42

percent chance you will graduate . You pay

19:44

back within 1.2 years

19:46

and you continue to increase your

19:48

salary , because the other thing we found is that

19:50

it's not just the first time salary increase of

19:53

15,000 , but after

19:55

three years it's more like $30,000

19:57

. So you continue to increase your

19:59

salary . So that's the experience

20:01

.

20:03

Fernando , let's talk about the

20:05

marketplace , the OPM marketplace , which

20:07

you're part of , and I think the

20:10

work that you're doing is providing

20:12

transparency , leadership in this

20:14

marketplace . But there's still a lot of confusion

20:17

about the marketplace . I

20:19

was with a good friend of mine who

20:21

happens to work in the White House and

20:24

we were talking about OPMs

20:26

and , of

20:28

course , you hear concerns

20:31

like runaway costs of

20:33

marketing . You hear concerns

20:35

about the learner experience

20:38

. You know who owns the learner experience . Is it the

20:40

university , is it the OPM

20:42

? You hear words like predatory

20:44

practices . How

20:46

do you respond to those concerns

20:49

or some of the confusion that still

20:51

exists about what an

20:54

OPM , like academic partnerships , really

20:56

does ?

20:58

I think it's a great question , eloy , and the funny

21:00

thing is , if you ask

21:02

presidents of universities

21:04

we work with , or provosts

21:07

, I mean , recently the department

21:09

had those open forums

21:11

and a lot of presidents of universities

21:14

, a lot of universities came and

21:16

said this is why we need academic

21:18

partnerships and this is why we

21:20

see the value . So I think there's

21:22

more confusion outside

21:25

our partners than it is

21:27

that they are within our partners . If

21:29

you talk to existing partners or potential

21:31

partners , they get it . They

21:34

get what we bring to the picture , what they bring

21:36

to the picture where we draw those lines . I

21:39

think there's more confusion outside

21:42

than inside . That's the first

21:44

thing I would say . The second thing I would say

21:46

is that I fundamentally

21:48

believe that the product that

21:51

our partners are offering is a great product

21:53

, based on the ROI

21:55

and all the things we've talked about , and

21:57

that our job is to help

21:59

with access to that product . So

22:02

this idea of like you're

22:04

spending too much on marketing , or a

22:07

president said it best and he was at

22:09

the White House and he said to

22:11

, I think , to the undersecretary . He said

22:13

measure my outputs

22:16

, don't measure my throughputs Like

22:19

. Measure my financial transparency

22:21

scores , measure my graduation

22:23

rates , measure my debt , measure

22:25

my income but don't measure how much I

22:27

spent on marketing or how much I spent

22:29

on faculty or how much I spent . That's

22:33

a throughput question and I

22:35

think the department is focused on

22:37

the right things and I think this

22:39

idea of financial transparency , this idea

22:41

of access , this idea of affordability

22:44

, they're all the right things and they're putting the right

22:46

tools to measure them . So

22:49

my view is let's have the conversations

22:52

around that , let's have

22:55

the debate , the conversations around

22:57

that . So

23:00

it's hard to respond to a conceptual , predatory pricing thing . If I say

23:02

, look , 80% of students graduate , they

23:05

pay for their 55%

23:08

, don't take any debt . The

23:10

rest take $6,000 . They pay for it

23:12

in 1.2 years . 85%

23:15

say they're super happy . So

23:17

my job if you have

23:19

a great product and you think it creates social

23:22

mobility , it's affordable , it creates

23:24

our own . I think there's

23:26

an imperative to increase

23:28

access as much as possible . And

23:30

working adults that

23:32

can benefit from this program don't

23:35

sign up by themselves . This

23:37

is not an undergrad that knew he

23:39

was going . These are nurses that

23:42

have kids , are working shifts , don't

23:44

know if they can achieve it . So the

23:47

process of reaching out to them , the process

23:49

of explaining the program , the process of supporting

23:52

them through it , is actually

23:54

really valuable program . The process

23:56

of supporting them through it is actually

23:58

really valuable . And

24:03

if you have 3 million coming shortage of nurses and millions of shortage of coming

24:05

students , there is an imperative of teachers . There is an

24:07

imperative to say can

24:09

we get more nurses ? Can we get more teachers

24:11

? So my view is

24:14

, as long as the products are

24:16

good and the ROI is there , then

24:19

we should have that conversation and we should put

24:21

measures and we should . And , by the

24:23

way , this doesn't matter if it's online , if it's

24:25

offline , if it's with an OPM , if it's not

24:27

with an OPM measure

24:30

every program which is where

24:32

we're going . Look

24:34

at the debt-to-earnings ratio and all

24:36

these metrics and then , if a

24:38

program is great , go for it

24:40

and get as many potential

24:43

people as you can

24:45

and improve their life . Otherwise

24:47

it becomes a little bit of an elitist

24:50

argument . Only the people

24:53

that know about education , that can

24:55

have presence of mind education

24:57

and have the time should go and do education

24:59

. So I think access is really important

25:02

. So that's how I think about the

25:04

conversation .

25:06

I think that's a great point , and certainly

25:10

those of us who interact

25:12

in the marketplace . We

25:15

see the worst examples of

25:17

some of these industry actors

25:20

. We see the worst examples

25:22

when online education first started

25:24

. We've seen the examples of

25:27

predatory practices of institutions

25:30

that shut down overnight and leave their students

25:34

hanging . Shut

25:38

down overnight and leave their students hanging . We've seen the examples

25:40

of a particular OPM that was very much out on

25:42

the bleeding edge talking about their

25:44

services and that

25:46

tends to occupy

25:48

the imagination of

25:51

the people watching the marketplace

25:53

, when in fact there are a lot

25:55

of organizations like yourselves who are just

25:57

working day to day to create

26:00

that access . So I appreciate

26:02

the challenges you face in

26:04

breaking through some of that , but I think , as you

26:06

mentioned , the key is the outcomes

26:09

continuing to be transparent

26:11

about how you work , continuing to be transparent

26:13

about the outcomes and continuing to have real

26:16

, genuine partnerships with your college

26:19

and university partners . So

26:22

let me ask you this the

26:24

proposed changes that the Department of Education

26:26

was proposing

26:29

to the definition of a third-party

26:31

servicer , potential

26:33

changes to the bundled

26:36

services exception in the Dear Colleague

26:38

letter that created the opportunity

26:40

for a lot of these partnerships

26:43

to exist . It's been

26:45

a year now . Nothing has happened yet . The

26:47

department is still wrestling with those

26:49

potential changes . But

26:52

given what you've heard about

26:54

some of those changes , how do you think it would affect

26:56

your relationship

26:58

with your university partners and

27:01

the OPM marketplace in general ?

27:04

I think , first and foremost

27:06

I would say is that I think what the department

27:08

is trying to achieve in

27:10

terms of reducing

27:13

and I listened to your podcast

27:16

with both the secretary and the under secretary

27:18

and I'm very aligned

27:21

, and we have very good conversation with the department

27:23

of what they're trying to achieve in terms of reducing

27:26

debts , increasing access , financial

27:28

transparency All

27:30

of that makes a lot of sense to me and

27:33

it works very aligned

27:35

to who we are and what we

27:38

do as AP and the partners we work with . I

27:40

mean the moment that there's

27:42

clear metrics of ROI that have

27:44

to be reported and that

27:47

students see that I'm very excited

27:49

for that for our

27:51

business , because people will see , oh , look

27:53

at these schools and look at those ROIs , and

27:56

so for me , I think the department

27:58

is trying to do really good things . I

28:01

think the complexity is

28:04

that sometimes and you've lived through

28:06

this there's a lot of unintended

28:08

consequences of actions , and

28:10

I think someone mentioned

28:12

this idea of scalpel versus

28:15

whatever axis or whatever

28:17

it's called . The tricky part

28:19

for me is how the

28:21

department makes sure that it enforces

28:23

those ideas that it wants and

28:25

that it protects consumers which it should

28:28

in a way that doesn't

28:30

create unintended consequences

28:32

, and one of the ones

28:34

the unintended consequences that I worry the

28:36

most about is that

28:39

the type of schools we work with

28:41

do not have the capital or

28:43

the expertise to

28:45

pay a vendor in

28:48

a fee-for-service model and

28:50

because you need to have the money

28:53

in your budget and you need to have the capital

28:55

, and so forth . And when we try

28:57

to offer fee-for-service for

28:59

some of our partner schools , they say no

29:02

, we don't want that . We like

29:04

the model where you're accountable

29:06

for the persistence of the student and

29:09

then you make money when the student succeeds

29:11

, versus which you just

29:13

charge us marketing fees . And we

29:15

can't afford to pay marketing fees . So we want to

29:17

compete , so we want to compete . So

29:20

the department

29:22

has this difficult thing

29:25

to solve , which

29:30

is the desire to protect students , but also the desire to support

29:32

regional public

29:35

universities , and you

29:37

need to find a way to reconcile those

29:40

two . The legislation

29:42

for potential changes

29:45

around third-party services . I

29:47

think it makes a lot of sense . It makes a lot

29:49

of sense because it creates some transparency , some

29:51

accountability . We've

29:54

quasi-operated with the assumption that

29:56

it should happen . It

29:58

will happen at some point . So

30:00

for us it's good

30:02

to do it , but it's

30:04

not a big change . We

30:07

follow a lot of those practices . We do a

30:09

lot of those things . So I don't think that's

30:11

a big change On

30:13

the change of a potential

30:15

model , because , at

30:18

the end of the day , this idea of the

30:21

bundle services guidance and rev , sure versus

30:23

fee for service , the

30:25

product is needed and the product is good

30:27

Meaning . Schools will

30:29

need support with capital

30:32

. They will need support with change

30:34

management , with marketing , with enrollment

30:37

, with retention . They need those services . So

30:39

now you're just talking about how you

30:41

contract . What's what's the fee

30:44

model ? Right , it's like the old ad

30:46

versus subscription model . So

30:49

I think it's a , it's a , it's

30:51

a dialogue . That my

30:54

my view is that we

30:56

should just be thoughtful of the

30:59

unintended consequences , but

31:01

we can operate with whatever

31:04

the department thinks it makes the

31:06

most sense . So

31:08

I just want clarity

31:11

, you know , like for me , like , let's just

31:13

decide what's the best option and

31:15

let's just go and let's offer great

31:17

programs to students and let's deliver

31:20

great outcomes and let's measure those and

31:24

and that's what I'm focused on- Well , I

31:26

think all of us are hoping that the department

31:28

can add some clarity soon .

31:30

Like anything else , I think , every time that they get

31:32

close , some other major

31:35

issue takes their time and attention

31:37

. So , given where

31:39

they're at with FAFSA right now , hopefully

31:41

they'll get that behind them soon and provide

31:44

clarity on this whole issue

31:46

. Now , as we begin to wrap

31:48

up , let me ask you this If

31:50

people listening to this podcast

31:52

, watching this podcast , want

31:55

to get more information about academic

31:57

partnerships or some of the data that you talked about the

31:59

Ipsos study that you mentioned

32:01

, get more information about the data that you talked about , the

32:04

Ipsos study that you mentioned . Get

32:08

more information about the outcomes that you talked about .

32:10

What is the best way for folks to access that information

32:12

? Yeah , so we publish what we call an impact report and

32:15

we share all that data . It's

32:17

in our website and if you Google

32:19

academic partnerships impact report , you

32:21

get it . And if you go to the website , we make

32:23

it very clear We've

32:26

I mean , we're very open with the data . We're

32:28

actually very proud of it , Not for ourselves

32:31

, but on behalf of our partners , because this

32:33

is all about our partners and what they do . So

32:35

that's the best way and it's

32:37

all . And that's why we also

32:40

use a third party like

32:42

Ipsos , because I think it's their methodology

32:44

, it's their way of looking at the results

32:47

. We're launching it as an annual

32:49

thing . So now we're adding more partners and

32:51

continuing to launch it , and we will continue

32:53

to publish our impact report every

32:55

year .

32:56

Great Well , listen , fernando . I

32:58

really appreciate you taking the time to

33:01

come on to the podcast . It's

33:03

refreshing to hear the way that you're

33:05

approaching the work , the way you're approaching

33:07

the partnerships , the way that you lift

33:10

your partners as being

33:12

, obviously , the main provider

33:14

of the education

33:16

, of the opportunity to the learners . I

33:19

think that is refreshing and it's refreshing

33:21

to hear you talk about outcomes . So appreciate

33:24

you taking the time to join us on

33:26

the podcast today , fernando .

33:29

Thank you so much , Gilles . I really enjoyed the conversation

33:31

.

33:36

All right . Well , thanks everybody for joining us here on the RAND

33:38

podcast . You've been listening to my conversation with Fernando

33:40

Blechmar he is the head of academic partnerships

33:43

and we've been talking about the

33:45

online program management marketplace

33:48

and the work that they do to lead

33:50

that marketplace . So love

33:52

your thoughts about what you think about the

33:54

podcast , the interview , the OPM marketplace

33:57

and also any thoughts you have on

33:59

where the Department of Education

34:01

should go on some of these regulatory issues that

34:03

they're still wrestling with . So thanks

34:06

for joining us here on the podcast . Hit , subscribe

34:08

, continue to follow us on this YouTube channel

34:10

and continue to follow us on your favorite

34:12

podcast platform . Thanks for joining us , everybody

34:15

, and we will be back with you real

34:17

soon .