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get your BBC podcasts. Exactly

0:42

one year ago, an American journalist in

0:44

Russia failed to check in with his

0:46

newspaper using their agreed security system. The

0:49

Wall Street Journal, Evan Gershkowitz's employer,

0:51

didn't panic. A missed check-in could

0:54

mean a flat phone battery, of

0:56

course, but a second missed check-in

0:58

the next morning prompted his bosses

1:00

to contact US national security and

1:02

reports began to circulate of a

1:04

US journalist missing in Russia. The

1:06

American journalist based in Moscow, Evan Gershkowitz, he's

1:09

been arrested in Russia, accused of spying while

1:11

working for the Wall Street Journal. Evan

1:13

had been arrested for espionage, the

1:15

first US journalist charged with spying

1:17

in Russia since the Cold War.

1:19

His bosses and the US government

1:21

say it's a lie. The

1:24

messages release him, release him now.

1:27

He was and is a

1:29

journalist who was doing his

1:31

job, doing nothing wrong. The

1:33

insinuations that he was somehow

1:37

engaging in some kind of criminal

1:40

activity is just

1:42

flat out false.

1:45

A year on and his pretrial

1:47

detention has been repeatedly extended. So

1:50

today we're asking, what will it

1:52

take to release Evan Gershkowitz? We've

1:59

called up Will Vernon. who's our BBC

2:01

reporter in Washington, DC, but who

2:03

spent many years reporting from Moscow.

2:06

Hi, Will. Hi, Katia. Also

2:08

with us, James Beardsworth, a friend of

2:10

Evan's and a journalist for BBC World

2:12

Service. And formerly, you also wrote for

2:14

the Moscow Times, just like Evan. Hi

2:17

Katia, good to be with you. Hi, James, so

2:19

nice to have you with us because you

2:21

both know Will on a personal level

2:24

as well as a professional level. Will,

2:27

you were in Russia reporting for

2:29

the BBC, actually, when Evan was

2:31

arrested. Where were you exactly?

2:34

And what do you remember of when the news broke? Well, the

2:36

day we learned that Evan

2:38

had been arrested, I was reading some

2:40

reports on local media in Yekaterinburg, that's

2:43

the city in which Evan

2:45

was arrested. These reports saying that he'd

2:48

disappeared. And I

2:50

immediately started calling people, messaging friends

2:53

of mine who know him better than I do. I remember

2:55

I messaged Francesca Abel from the

2:57

Washington Post, a few others. And I

2:59

went into the BBC Moscow Bureau about

3:02

half an hour later, I can still see it

3:04

now. I was sitting at my computer

3:06

and up flashed this

3:08

statement on the Russian wire

3:11

agencies, a statement from the

3:13

FSB, that's Russia's security service,

3:15

basically the secret police, saying

3:18

Evan had been detained on suspicion

3:20

of espionage. My heart sank right

3:22

down to my boots. I

3:24

called our bosses in

3:27

London, told them exactly what had happened. We

3:30

then heard that same day that Evan was going

3:32

to appear in court. So we jumped in the

3:34

car, raced to the courtroom. It

3:36

was a court building and we went

3:38

there and we did a report for

3:41

that day's 10 o'clock news about

3:43

our friend and colleague who'd been

3:45

arrested. And in the next

3:47

few days, the small number of foreign

3:49

journalists who still remained in Moscow

3:51

at that point, everyone

3:54

was in utter disbelief, fear,

3:56

shock. We were

3:58

thinking, do we need to go straight to the end? airport,

4:00

you know, get out of the country immediately.

4:02

Some people did do that, some people did

4:05

jump in a car, went straight to the

4:07

airport and got out of Russia. But for

4:10

a long time after that day,

4:12

every night when I

4:14

was kind of going to sleep, I kept thinking about

4:16

Evan falling asleep, also in Moscow,

4:18

but in a jail cell and

4:20

left off to a prison. So it was

4:23

awful. James, again, a really

4:26

good friend of Evan's and Will

4:28

was saying his heart sunk right down,

4:31

you know, into his boots and further,

4:33

you and Evan met playing five-a-side football

4:35

in Moscow, didn't you? So what

4:38

did you think when all of a

4:40

sudden your close friend's name was on

4:42

every news outlet in and outside

4:44

Russia? I remember exactly where I was when I

4:46

found out the news. I actually was a friend

4:48

of mine that just texted me saying Evan's been

4:50

arrested and I looked out, I looked on my

4:52

phone and looked on Telegram and it was a

4:54

video of him sort of being bundled from a

4:56

sort of black car into a police station, really,

4:58

away with later sort of appearing caught. I was

5:00

just absolutely shocked. The first thing that I did

5:03

was I pulled out my phone and I just

5:05

sort of sent a text to him saying some

5:07

thoughts with you, mate, which I guess

5:09

in hindsight, given the sort of scale of the

5:11

crisis seems like a bit of a ridiculous thing.

5:13

But obviously at the time, none

5:15

of us really were aware what the next

5:17

steps were. And then from there, it was

5:19

just bringing mutual friends of ours talking about,

5:21

you know, things like, you know, just raising

5:24

awareness, raising money for Evan's family and talking

5:26

about what we can really do from afar.

5:28

And that's where obviously things like the letter

5:30

campaign came from. And it's

5:32

good to see that these things are still obviously continuing now. Now,

5:35

before we get in detail as to

5:37

what's happened to Evan since that day

5:39

and how his release could be secured,

5:41

I'd like to. And I'm sure our

5:44

listeners would really love to get to

5:46

know him a bit more. James, Evan

5:49

encouraged you to become a journalist, didn't he? I

5:51

mean, he is passionate about

5:53

his job. I first met Evan in 2019

5:55

when I moved out to Moscow and I

5:57

started playing football in a five a side.

6:00

League and Evan was a player who played for

6:02

an opposing team but often it was quite friendly

6:04

and you'd always sort of go out and meet

6:06

the other players after the game and I told

6:08

Evan at the time that I was sort of

6:10

I was teaching but I was also freelance writing

6:12

and he really sort of showed an interest in

6:14

this he sort of asked a lot about what

6:16

my work was and what I was interested in

6:18

doing and then every time I'd see me

6:20

sort of share ideas with me and

6:22

talk about it and he was obviously working at the

6:24

Moscow Times at the time and he was always really

6:27

encouraging me to have a think about going into more

6:29

of a reporter role full-time in Russia

6:32

and I remember when two years down the line a job

6:34

did come up I rang Evan and I said look I'm

6:36

thinking about going for this job but I'm not sure where

6:39

I stand whether I've got the credentials and he sort

6:41

of really reassured me told me to sort of do's

6:43

and do nots and he's sort of like my first

6:45

point of call ever for mentoring journalism in terms of

6:48

you know what's the how is the best way about

6:50

going about things and also sort of tackling Russia which

6:52

has become increasingly difficult in the last few

6:55

years well what do you

6:57

think of Evan as a journalist and

6:59

and how is he more generally

7:01

regarded in the journalistic field

7:04

there well Evans a fantastic

7:06

journalist his pieces are always packed

7:08

full of real people real voices

7:10

when he goes

7:13

on assignments you can tell that he's what's

7:15

known in Russia as a ballad torn right someone

7:17

who chats away all the time he

7:21

chats to anybody and everybody and that's what

7:23

a journalist should do they get out there

7:25

and talk to people find out stuff tell

7:27

people stories and that's what Evan did he's

7:29

also very good at finding people I remember

7:32

we'd often read his reports in

7:34

the Moscow Bureau and I'd say to my colleagues

7:36

you know goodness me how on earth did Evan

7:38

find that person you know I'd love to speak

7:40

to them he clearly loves

7:42

the country the people he

7:44

finds everything about Russia and Ukraine and the

7:46

former Soviet Union fascinating and we

7:49

hear this phrase don't we quite a lot of fearless

7:51

reporter but he really is fearless he

7:53

went to places that other people were

7:55

too nervous to go I remember him

7:57

calling me up a few weeks for

8:00

his arrest and said he was going to

8:02

Bilghardt. This is a Russian city right on

8:04

the border with Ukraine. Lots of shelling, lots

8:06

of military presence there, soldiers

8:08

and tanks going in and out of Ukraine.

8:12

He said his bosses would feel a lot

8:14

better if he went with someone else, but

8:16

for safety and security reasons, where

8:18

are we planning to go? I said

8:20

to him, we couldn't go at that time, but he

8:23

went anyway, because he

8:25

really wanted to tell that story and he

8:27

wrote an excellent piece. He's also just a

8:29

really nice, friendly guy. He

8:31

has a massive smile, he's hilarious, he's very

8:34

witty, he's very clever. I mean, it's a

8:36

cliche, but he really is the life and

8:38

soul of the party. And James,

8:40

he does have that connection with Russia,

8:42

doesn't he, through his family. He grew

8:44

up speaking Russian up until his arrest

8:47

and obviously, you know, everyone will want

8:49

to talk to him when

8:51

everyone hopes he is released, but what did

8:53

it mean to him to be

8:55

working in Russia? His family

8:57

had left Russia during the Soviet Union and

9:00

he returned to a Russia that was completely

9:02

different from the one that his family had

9:04

left. And I remember he

9:06

sort of took great pride in showing

9:08

his family Russia when they came over,

9:10

obviously having visited Evan in Moscow and

9:12

seeing this totally transformed country. And

9:15

he sort of grew up with that part of

9:17

Russia being kind of missing piece in him. And

9:19

I think going over to Moscow, sort of it

9:21

was almost completed him in that sense. He sort

9:24

of got to know this country, he recognized that

9:26

it sort of opened so many doors for him.

9:29

He liked to get about, he liked to travel to all sorts

9:31

of different places. He had a real sort of hunger. He

9:33

was constantly inviting me to sort of really obscure

9:35

parts of Russia. And I think he really thought

9:37

that it was important that Russia was viewed not

9:39

just through the lens of the sort of big

9:41

cosmopolitan cities, but also, you know, in the Far

9:44

East. A lot of Evan's work, when you read

9:46

it, it will be really shining a light on

9:48

people in Russia that you do not hear. I

9:50

remember it was Evan who first gave

9:52

me a piece of advice, which is like, really,

9:54

when you're writing about Russia, the less you can

9:56

mention the president's name, the better, because that's ultimately,

9:58

you know, you're then writing about Russia. different

10:00

aspects of the country that we don't see

10:02

a lot of time in Western media and

10:04

you're hearing voices that often go unheard.

10:10

And after the full-scale invasion, well as you said,

10:12

I mean you stayed but

10:14

you left subsequent to

10:17

Evan's arrest. Yeah, I

10:19

mean for many journalists, Evan's

10:21

arrest completely changed the

10:23

risk versus reward balancing act

10:26

that we'd all been playing for years in Russia.

10:29

It changed it for me. You

10:31

know, Russia, yes it was a risky

10:33

place to do journalism but the rewards

10:36

were also considerable. Russia is a fascinating

10:38

country. It's important work that Evan was

10:41

doing, we were doing, others were doing.

10:43

These people's stories needed to be told.

10:46

So the balance really tipped

10:49

in favor of reward over risk for a

10:51

long time but for many people, not

10:54

for everyone but for many, that did

10:56

change when Evan got arrested. And

10:59

for Russian journalists, I mean we're

11:01

more familiar with the

11:04

intimidation of certain Russian journalists, independent Russian

11:06

journalists going back a long way. What's

11:10

the situation like now? Well

11:13

the situation is pretty grim and

11:16

I think Evan's arrest showed that. No

11:20

one really is safe in Russia

11:22

anymore, no one. Russia

11:24

sees all manifestations of

11:27

a free press, Western values, Western

11:30

organizations as a danger, as a

11:32

threat. There is

11:34

no free press in Russia anymore. Every

11:37

single mainstream independent media organization now has

11:39

been shut down or silenced or forced

11:41

out of the country. And

11:44

over 20 Russian journalists are

11:46

in prison in Russia and hundreds, perhaps

11:48

thousands more are in exile

11:50

abroad. So the situation

11:52

for Russian journalists

11:54

is incredibly grim and

11:57

it's getting worse, every

11:59

day. Maybe not every day,

12:01

but every week, every month, we hear

12:03

of more arrests, of more

12:06

repression. So Russia

12:08

is really on a downward trajectory, really,

12:10

in terms of press

12:12

freedom and repression in general. We've

12:15

got to know Evan Goshkovich a bit

12:17

better on a personal level and talked

12:19

about the conditions in which he and

12:22

other journalists have been reporting in

12:24

Russia. And next, we're going to get

12:26

into what life's been like for Evan

12:28

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12:30

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Botox Cosmetic. This

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is the Global Story. We bring you

13:14

one big international story in detail five

13:16

days a week. Follow or subscribe wherever

13:18

you listen. With me is

13:20

Will Vernon and James Beardsworth. We've heard

13:22

about what Evan is like as a

13:24

friend and a journalist and why he's

13:26

been so committed to reporting across Russia.

13:29

And now we're going to get a look at what's

13:31

been happening since his arrest. Will,

13:34

can you remind us what exactly

13:36

is Evan charged with and what's

13:39

his current status? Evan was

13:41

arrested in March 2023 on the 29th of March.

13:45

He was then transferred to pretrial

13:47

detention in Lefortovo Prison. He was

13:49

also in a court

13:55

a number of times and each time

13:57

he's been remanded in custody pending trial.

14:00

On Tuesday, this week, he was remanded

14:02

in custody once again. He'll be there

14:04

at least until late June. Now

14:07

he's been charged with espionage. That is

14:09

up to 20 years in prison. The

14:12

authorities haven't presented any evidence publicly.

14:14

All they've said is that Evan was

14:16

caught red-handed. This is

14:19

a closed court, a secret

14:21

trial, so we don't know

14:24

many of the details. It's unlikely

14:26

we'll hear any more details for a while.

14:28

And these things can often take months

14:30

or years to come to trial. And

14:32

of course we heard US President Joe Biden,

14:34

he took to the media to speak about Evan.

14:36

We're working every day to secure his release.

14:41

Looking at opportunities and tools to bring him

14:43

home. But what specifically,

14:45

James, are Evan's

14:47

lawyers, The Wall Street Journal, the

14:50

newspaper he works for, and his

14:52

family saying about the charges levelled

14:54

against him. Well of course they've vehemently

14:56

denied the charges put against Evan. We know

14:58

these are bogus charges. We know that Evan

15:01

has never worked for the American government. And

15:03

we know that he was a reporter and he's

15:05

been a reporter since he moved out to Moscow.

15:07

That's what he does and that's what he loves

15:09

to do. So other than obviously deny the fact

15:11

that he's clearly not a spy, there is of

15:13

course no evidence, as Will

15:15

says, that's been presented against him. That

15:18

is all that they can really do. And you've

15:20

both exchanged letters with him in prison.

15:24

What's his life there like,

15:27

James? He remains unbroken. As Will says,

15:29

we've seen him a number of times in

15:31

court. He looks in good shape from

15:33

what we know from the letters. He remains in good

15:35

spirits. He lives in a

15:38

small cell with a cell mate and

15:40

he has one hour access to the

15:42

outside a day. He's keeping

15:44

himself fit. It was arranged that a book would be

15:46

sent to him so he can do bodyweight exercises so

15:48

within his small cell he can work out. He

15:51

also keeps up to date with what's going on in

15:53

the world and current affairs. He has a small TV

15:55

in his cell. Lynne Tracy, the US

15:57

ambassador, talked about the fact that every time she meets...

16:00

He has questions about US current affairs.

16:02

He also mentioned in a letter to a friend

16:04

recently about a niche footballer within the Premier League

16:07

So he's obviously keeping up to date with what's

16:09

going on in the football. He's a big Arsenal

16:11

fan, isn't he? He is indeed.

16:13

Yeah, he's a big Arsenal fan me and Evan

16:15

would go and watch Arsenal together in Moscow He

16:18

does get the scores, but about apparently he's about two

16:20

weeks behind I remember joking in in

16:22

a letter with him last season because it all

16:24

at one point looked good for Arsenal Then it

16:26

all sort of started to go badly and I

16:29

said well to be honest, mate You probably best

16:31

not in the know than in the know right now

16:33

So yeah, and of course the fort

16:35

of a prison is designed to isolate and

16:38

in letters as I say He plays chess

16:40

with family. He likes to he likes to

16:42

ask about sort of gossip and What's

16:45

going on and he just wants to hear really all of the

16:47

things he's missing out on and when we have

16:49

seen him in court It's

16:51

behind it. It's sort of like a glass.

16:54

How would you describe it? It's like a

16:56

glass cage almost he seems determined to smile

16:58

doesn't he will he's managed somehow to to

17:00

get flowers sent to his sister on International

17:03

Women's Day I was catching up with

17:05

an interview with her How does that

17:07

work and how does the letter system

17:09

work? So you can write letters to Evan?

17:12

They must be written in Russian. I write letters

17:14

to him in Russian send them directly to the

17:16

prison Obviously all the letters

17:18

are opened and read by the Russian

17:20

authorities as they are in prisons in

17:22

most countries including the UK So it's

17:24

it's not possible to discuss anything, you

17:26

know significantly political or about his case

17:28

in any way So Evan's

17:31

friends have set up a website where people can

17:33

write to him in English They then translate those

17:35

letters send them to the fort of a prison

17:38

That's at free gerskovich.com and

17:40

you can also access the Wall Street Journal websites

17:42

They also have a portal where you can send

17:45

a letter But you mentioned the

17:47

pictures that we see of him in court Evans

17:50

standing inside a glass tank. It's

17:52

called an aquarium in kind

17:54

of Russian legal slang But seeing

17:56

those pictures you might think that this is

17:59

an open court in

18:01

which press are allowed, but of course it's not.

18:04

What really happens at the beginning

18:06

of these secret closed court cases

18:08

is journalists, photographers, cameramen are

18:10

allowed in for 10 minutes at the beginning

18:13

to take a few pictures and

18:15

then are shut out again. The

18:17

authorities in Russia keep extending his

18:20

detention. They extended it again this

18:23

week. How can he move on,

18:25

James, from this limbo being held

18:27

without conviction? What options are

18:30

there to bring about his release? It's obviously immensely

18:32

frustrating, not only as an onlooker, but I'm

18:34

sure for Evan we do know that he

18:36

does want to be sentenced because he sees

18:38

a sentencing as that next step before he

18:40

can possibly be exchanged.

18:43

Now obviously there is precedent here. There's Paul

18:45

Whelan, who is another US citizen who remains

18:47

in jail. I think he waited something like

18:49

a year and a half on pretrial. And

18:52

then there was also Brittany Grine, who I think was just slightly less than

18:54

a year. So obviously there remains a

18:56

lot of hope that in the next few months

18:58

there may be a trial date set

19:00

and Evan will be able to be

19:02

sentenced and then obviously transferred away from

19:04

the fort of her to another prison

19:06

where hopefully he should have more opportunities

19:08

to socialize. Obviously we know he's

19:10

a curious person that likes to meet people. And

19:13

I'm sure that he'll be wanting to even

19:16

inside the prison walls meet new people, meet new

19:18

contacts and come out with all of these stories.

19:20

Well President Biden, we've heard him say

19:23

repeatedly that everything is being done to

19:25

secure Evan's release. But what options are

19:28

there? We'll go into the idea of

19:30

a prison exchange in a moment. But

19:32

other options? Well it's difficult to imagine

19:35

what other options there could be. I mean

19:37

certainly we can't hope for any sort of

19:39

acquittal trial. There

19:42

is a guilty verdict in over 99%

19:44

of criminal cases in Russia.

19:46

The judiciary, the court system is

19:48

not independent. Others will issue any

19:50

verdict they're told to do by

19:52

the authorities. You know, juries are

19:54

rarely used. This is a secret

19:56

case, as I said. We don't

19:58

know what the quota... quote, evidence

20:01

is against Evan. They often do

20:03

this with cases linked to national

20:06

security. So I think a prisoner

20:08

swap really is the only hope for Evan, aside

20:10

from any kind of major political

20:13

changes in Russia. So

20:15

what usually happens is someone

20:17

is found guilty, sentenced, sent

20:20

to prison, then President Putin

20:22

officially pardons the person and

20:24

they're released. The

20:26

Kremlin can do whatever it wants. If

20:28

Putin decides he wants Evan Gerskowitz released,

20:30

all it would take is one phone call and

20:32

Evan would be out. But I think probably we'll

20:34

have to wait until after the trial. Yeah,

20:37

absolutely. And there is regular contact between

20:39

Evans parents and the White House. And

20:41

I believe Roger Carstens, the US hostage

20:43

negotiator, is in contact with them every

20:46

week. We're going to go in prepared

20:48

to discuss and we think

20:50

we know what direction it might go. But the

20:52

Russians, you know, they're tough negotiators and they may

20:54

take it in another direction. And that's

20:56

fine. We're going to find a way to meet,

20:58

close the gap between two sides and find a

21:00

way to bring Evan home. We

21:06

have to be honest, though, don't we? And obviously, there's a

21:08

huge amount of there's a huge

21:10

ethical discussion attached to this. But the

21:13

assumption is, is that this could well

21:15

end with a prisoner swap. Well,

21:18

what signs have there been from

21:20

President Putin? And do you

21:22

think they're credible signs that this may be what

21:24

he's thinking? Well, firstly, we

21:26

should say that prisoner swaps are

21:29

extremely secret affairs. Governments mostly don't

21:31

comment publicly on the details of

21:33

them. But you're right that President

21:35

Putin has mentioned the possibility of

21:37

swapping Evan several times in speeches

21:40

and answers to questions. There have

21:42

also been reports in a number

21:44

of media outlets that a swap

21:46

is being negotiated. In Mr. Putin's

21:49

interview with Tucker Carlson, he's the

21:51

right wing American media personality. Putin

21:53

suggested an agreement can be reached.

21:56

And then he mentioned a man imprisoned

21:58

in a US allied country. country for

22:00

liquidating a bandit who had killed Russian

22:03

soldiers during the fighting in the Caucasus.

22:05

Now, there's only one man President

22:07

Putin could be talking about there, and

22:10

that is Vadim Krasikov. So, he is

22:12

a Russian man in prison in Germany,

22:14

a convicted killer. He shot

22:16

dead a Georgian man, Zelim Hangushvili, in

22:18

a Berlin park in 2019. Now,

22:21

Mr. Hangushvili fought against Russian forces

22:23

in the north Caucasus, was accused

22:25

of war crimes. And

22:28

German authorities said that Vadim Krasikov,

22:30

his killer, was basically a hitman,

22:33

was an assassin sent by the

22:35

Russian intelligence services. So, he was

22:37

sentenced to life imprisonment. He is in

22:39

prison in Germany, and

22:41

Vladimir Putin desperately wants Vadim

22:44

Krasikov back in Russia. Why?

22:46

The reason he wants him back is

22:48

twofold. Firstly, I think the Kremlin

22:51

is concerned that Krasikov may talk.

22:54

Most intelligence will most certainly be working

22:56

with him, talking to him, maybe trying to

22:59

get a deal, you know, will

23:01

reduce your sentence if you tell us how

23:03

the Russian intelligence services operate. You

23:05

know, they left you here. And

23:08

I think as more time goes on, there's

23:10

more of a likelihood that Krasikov could feel

23:12

abandoned. He might talk. And I think the

23:15

Kremlin knows that and wants to get him

23:17

back. But I think the other reason they

23:19

want him back is so that it doesn't

23:21

act as a deterrent, right? It

23:24

would be assassins deployed overseas. Vadim

23:26

Krasikov is a high profile figure.

23:28

Everyone in Russia, in the intelligence

23:31

community, knows he's sitting there in

23:33

a jail cell in Germany.

23:35

So, I think other potential hitmen

23:38

could look at that and think, well, I'm not going

23:40

to do that. If I get

23:42

caught, if I get arrested, I'm going to

23:44

be left there and abandoned. Is there any other

23:46

diplomatic pressure the US can

23:49

put on Moscow? There's almost no

23:51

pressure America can put on Russia

23:53

because all the pressure's already been exerted, right? The

23:56

tank is empty. All the diplomatic

23:58

levers have been pulled. Buttons

24:00

pushed. Russia's already the most sanctioned

24:02

country on Earth. Almost all aspects

24:05

of the economy, the government, the

24:07

military, have US and other international

24:09

sanctions against them. The

24:11

top brass of the Russian government, even

24:14

the middle brass of the Russian government,

24:16

have personal sanctions against them too. Frankly,

24:18

there are no other options left. Well,

24:21

thank you, James. Thank you. And

24:23

on a personal level, I mean,

24:25

I remember very well, years

24:28

ago when a friend, a good friend and a

24:30

colleague of mine, different

24:32

circumstances, of course, but he was

24:34

kidnapped in the Middle East and

24:37

every night, and before his

24:39

thankfully safe return, I just stayed awake

24:41

thinking of how he was and where

24:43

he was and how he was faring.

24:45

So I know how much your

24:48

thoughts are with Evan. Thank you very much both

24:50

of you for your time. You're welcome.

24:52

Thank you, Katja. Cheers, Will. Cheers, James. Hope

24:54

to meet you one day. Thanks

24:57

for taking the time to listen to this

24:59

episode of ours. If you want to hear

25:01

more, search BBC The Global Story wherever you

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