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One. Focus One Subject Welcome to

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Celia Hatton here. Now, before we talk

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all things tic toc, I'm joined by

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my colleague Catcher Adler to tell you

0:56

about another podcast were producing here at

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the Bbc World Service. Katya, Thanks so

1:01

much Celia! It's called Global Story and

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with a team of journalists from around

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one big news story every weekday and

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we look at it in detail. So

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we've covered Taylor Swift's impact on local

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economies for example, as she goes on

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tour and we ask whether she could

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influence. The outcome of November's Us Presidential

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really think she can. We've looked at

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is the real story from the B B

1:57

C I'm Celia hat and with your weekly

1:59

D. Guy into a story that's

2:01

making news and changing lives. This

2:04

week the social media app has

2:06

become part of. The everyday routines

2:08

of a growing. Number of Americans I

2:10

used to talk to teach millions of

2:12

people about science and space to I

2:15

just use it for like recreational use.

2:17

So like on my way to the

2:19

train our like. Any time I'm bored

2:21

I get most of my news actually

2:23

through tic toc. Kind of a

2:25

source of entertainment. Sometimes it's stuff that I'm

2:28

learning about and then there's a lot, like

2:30

activism on thick socks to sort of. It's

2:32

like keeps me informed. Had

2:34

Talent has had explosive growth consecutively

2:37

among young people, but the future

2:39

of the App and United States

2:41

is looking uncertain. Congress is

2:43

moving swiftly on this proposal that

2:46

would require Tic Toc social media

2:48

giant two separate itself from it's

2:51

China based owner my Pants or

2:53

face of bad in Us at

2:55

Source. In compliance with Chinese law,

2:58

Tic Tacs parent company Fight Dance

3:00

is legally required to support the

3:02

work of the Chinese Communist Party.

3:05

We need this bill because we

3:07

simply cannot allow an app controlled

3:09

by our nation's foremost adversary and

3:12

competitor to take. Over the

3:14

American media landscape to talk.

3:16

Says their critics are wrong Thought:

3:19

This week the Us House of

3:21

Representatives voted five three hundred and

3:23

sixty two to sixty five to

3:25

support a bill which the company

3:27

says amounts to a possible bomb

3:30

dump. Trump try to take on

3:32

Tic Toc when in the White

3:34

House, but now see and his

3:36

supporters in Congress think challenging Tic

3:38

Toc actually help someone they perceive

3:41

as a bigger threat. With

3:43

owner Mark Zuckerberg. When. The government

3:45

needs and a forcing the sale ads Tic

3:47

Tac Toe is going to buy it. Will

3:51

be the next to control the data

3:53

of over one hundred and seventy million

3:55

Americans. Are we going to thrust Mark

3:57

Zuckerberg to control their data? I

4:00

certainly don't. President Joe Biden

4:02

says he'll sign the bill if it

4:04

passes both houses of Congress. But in

4:07

an election year, it could be a

4:09

risky move. There could be

4:11

a huge potential for blowback from America's

4:13

avid TikTok users. I'm aware that I'm

4:15

giving my data, right? I'm aware, I'm

4:17

okay with it. Let me make that

4:19

decision. You don't need to make that

4:21

for me. To be quite

4:23

honest, everything on the internet is a

4:25

security risk. And so this may have

4:27

a parent company that is foreign, but

4:30

we have just as many security risks with

4:32

domestic companies as well. And so I would

4:34

love to see our lawmakers spend this much

4:36

time and energy to pass more data protection

4:39

overall for all Americans on all platforms, on

4:41

everything. So what's the

4:43

power of TikTok? China State

4:46

Media says it's a beloved tool

4:48

of fun, fortune, and free speech.

4:51

Is TikTok a security threat? Or

4:53

is the real problem big tech in

4:55

general? Let's

4:59

look at the future of one

5:01

of the world's most popular apps with

5:04

help from our guests. Louise Mutsukis

5:06

is a freelance journalist covering technology

5:09

in China. She writes,

5:11

you may also like a newspaper about

5:14

e-commerce and Chinese tech giants. She

5:17

joins us from Los Angeles. Louise,

5:19

hello. I have a question I'm going to pose to

5:21

all of our guests, and I'm going to put it

5:23

to you. I'm going to ask you a question. I'm

5:26

going to pose to all of our guests, and I'm going

5:28

to put it to you first. What's

5:30

the moment you first realized that

5:33

TikTok was something different, that it was going

5:35

to be a force to be reckoned with?

5:38

Thanks for having me, Celia. You know, I

5:40

was looking back, and five years ago this month, I

5:44

wrote a guide for Wired Magazine about how to

5:46

use TikTok. And I remember then

5:48

it really struck me that this was

5:50

an app that was really driven by an

5:52

algorithm. So it was looking at how

5:54

long you spend each video, what

5:56

you like, what you share. And That

5:58

was just so fundamentally. The different from

6:01

the way that American social media platforms

6:03

have operated historically know Facebook, Instagram. These

6:05

are upset revolve around who you know

6:07

and realize that you follow people you

6:10

meet all people you meet in college,

6:12

made you go to school with whom

6:14

you work. With and through the

6:16

Clinton is driven by. Those personal

6:18

connections even on app like you

6:21

tube! The. First thing you do is

6:23

you search for something right It it's or have

6:25

driven by your proactive behavior. Whereas it really struck

6:27

me that when you open to thoughts, you just

6:29

see a video and then you scroll the next

6:31

one and then the next fine and the next

6:34

wine. And this is an app that really is.

6:36

Controlled. By what are your interests

6:38

and your for you page which is sort

6:41

of, you know the main way that you

6:43

access that algorithm can be so fundamentally different

6:45

from the person next to you. Think.

6:47

He Louis so Jermichael Crime Let's

6:50

turn to you. You're an editorial

6:52

fellow at Asia Society China File

6:54

website, founding editor in chief of

6:56

the Sign Up Project, and co

6:59

founder of the Seneca Podcast. Jeremy

7:01

lives in China for more than

7:03

twenty years, but now lives in

7:06

the Us where he joins us

7:08

from Nashville, Tennessee. So Jeremy, What's

7:10

the moment? You first realize that

7:12

tic toc was something different. Will

7:15

I have to set? I thought bite

7:17

dance with something different. long before Tic

7:19

Toc even existed because when it was

7:22

founded in Twenty Twelve it was the

7:24

first time he's internet company that seem

7:26

to have completely made up a whole

7:28

new business model and not copied anything

7:30

at all from any kind of American

7:33

is that platform But Tic Toc itself

7:35

I realized was a force because I

7:37

live in Nashville which is your known

7:39

as Music City. It's the sense of

7:41

country music in the United States and

7:44

I have. a friend who works

7:46

in the music business who had

7:48

seen the success of a song

7:50

called old town road by a

7:52

little nas ex and his initial

7:55

success was on tic toc that's

7:57

where the song went viral and

7:59

this music industry executive said to

8:01

me, it's time to quit

8:03

the business because everything is about to change.

8:06

And I think he was right. Thanks,

8:08

Jeremy. Lindsay Gorman, let's

8:10

turn to you. Lindsay is head

8:13

of technology and the geopolitics team

8:15

at the Trans-Atlantic Nonpartisan Alliance for

8:17

Securing Democracy. She joins us from

8:19

Austin, Texas. Lindsay, we'll put the

8:22

same question to you. What's the

8:24

moment you first realized that TikTok

8:26

was going to be a force

8:28

to be reckoned with? Yeah,

8:31

thanks, Celia. Well, for me, it

8:34

was in 2019, actually. Our organization

8:36

studies foreign influence on social media

8:38

platforms, and we come at it

8:41

from a national security perspective. So

8:43

we've been tracking Russian

8:45

and Chinese state influence on

8:48

traditional social media platforms,

8:50

Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. And

8:53

in 2019, around September,

8:55

the pro-democracy protests in Hong

8:57

Kong were really kicking up. And

8:59

we were seeing these very popular

9:01

protest hashtags stand with Hong Kong

9:04

and the like that were used

9:06

by protesters. It was a very

9:08

online protest in addition to, obviously,

9:10

people coming out in the streets

9:12

of Hong Kong. And we were

9:14

seeing on Facebook and

9:16

Twitter and YouTube these hashtags were

9:18

really going viral. And

9:21

on TikTok, they were curiously

9:23

not really there.

9:25

Just the numbers were vastly different.

9:28

And so that's when I started to really get interested

9:30

in TikTok. It's

9:33

been a fascinating path and future

9:35

for TikTok. Louise Matsakis, I

9:38

want to turn back to the basics when

9:40

it comes to TikTok. What is it? What

9:42

can you tell us about it? So

9:45

TikTok is a short form video platform.

9:47

And when you open the app, the

9:49

first thing you see is this feed

9:51

called the For You page. And what

9:53

it is is it's basically just an endless scroll

9:55

of videos. And so over time, as you

9:57

scroll through those videos, the app is going to be a very

9:59

long time. detects, you know, how long

10:01

are you lingering on maybe fashion videos

10:03

versus, you know, funny videos of pets?

10:05

Do you like politics videos or do

10:08

you swipe right past them? You can

10:10

follow people the same way that you can

10:12

on, you know, Instagram or YouTube or other

10:14

apps. You can message people if

10:16

you both follow one another, but I think

10:18

that that algorithm is really what makes

10:21

it different. So who uses

10:23

this app and where globally do they

10:25

use it? That's a great

10:27

question. So I think historically because the

10:30

way that TikTok came to the United

10:32

States is that ByteDance,

10:34

the parent company, bought this app

10:36

called Musically, which was a lip-syncing

10:39

app for teens. So when TikTok

10:41

first, you know, started expanding internationally,

10:43

it was sort of known as

10:45

this teen and tween app. But

10:49

in the last few years, like with other

10:51

social media platforms, TikTok's user base

10:53

has begun to age. So I

10:55

would say right now, sort of

10:57

the core TikTok demographic is certainly

11:00

Gen Z, but it's not all teenagers. I

11:02

would say, you know, a really big component

11:05

of this is millennials and also

11:07

a fair number of sort of older people.

11:09

And the app has about a billion to,

11:11

you know, 1.2 billion

11:13

users basically all over

11:16

the world, aside from India, which was

11:18

the first country to ban the app

11:20

back in 2020.

11:23

So Jeremy, where did TikTok's powerful

11:26

algorithm get its start in and how

11:28

did it become so successful? Well,

11:31

ByteDance, the parent company, launched in 2012 in

11:33

Beijing. And

11:36

in fact, their very first app was called

11:38

Nehan Duanze, which was a

11:40

way of circulating jokes, some of them

11:42

slightly off-color. And in fact, was eventually

11:45

shut down by the Chinese government in

11:47

2018. But the product that

11:49

was a breakout for them was called

11:51

Xinru Toujiao, or like today's headlines. And

11:54

it is a fascinating service because

11:57

Chinese news is very boring. websites

12:00

are highly censored and controlled by the

12:02

government. To find interesting

12:04

news on Chinese news websites is pretty

12:07

tough because the interesting stuff is never

12:09

going to be on the homepage. They

12:12

figured out that if they

12:14

used an algorithm, they could figure out

12:16

what would interest people. It

12:18

might be news stories about their

12:21

local hometown or gossip

12:23

about real estate or something that isn't

12:25

just the sort of heavy political news

12:27

of the day on the front page

12:30

of the news websites. And I think

12:32

that in some ways has been the secret

12:34

source to all of their good products. They

12:36

figured out that an algorithm can understand you

12:38

almost better than you do yourself. And

12:41

the same approach has been taken obviously with TikTok.

12:43

Jeremy, thanks. It's so interesting to hear

12:46

how it got its start. Now, Lindsay,

12:48

at the core of this

12:50

debate around TikTok is who actually

12:52

controls the app. Can you give

12:54

us an overview of where TikTok

12:56

is based and its relationship to

12:58

the parent company, ByteDance? Well,

13:01

TikTok US is technically based in the

13:03

United States, but it is owned by

13:06

ByteDance, which

13:08

is its parent company and

13:11

is now technically incorporated in the

13:13

Cayman Islands, but is

13:15

headquartered in Beijing. I

13:18

think it's important to understand that in China,

13:20

there really isn't such a thing as a

13:22

truly private company. Ultimately, all

13:25

Chinese companies like ByteDance

13:27

are implements of the state in some way.

13:30

And so that's where the real concern comes

13:33

in about this ownership that with

13:35

a social media platform that is so

13:37

powerful, that has such a large user

13:39

base, where the algorithm is

13:41

so opaque, that the

13:44

ones ultimately pulling the strings

13:46

on that algorithm could

13:48

be sitting in Beijing. Now,

13:51

Lindsay, you mentioned some of the concerns

13:53

around TikTok. Let's get into that a

13:55

bit more. We Asked to speak to

13:57

someone from TikTok, but no one was

13:59

available. The twelve months ago

14:01

when the Us Senate with considering

14:03

it's own measures that might have

14:06

impacted Tic Tacs American operations my

14:08

colleague Tim Think spoke to Michael

14:10

Beckerman he's Tic Toc Head of

14:12

Public Policy in the Americas, You.

14:14

Know we're not owned by state owned

14:16

enterprise and when people say it's Chinese

14:18

owned, the founder of the company happens

14:21

to be a Chinese engineer who used

14:23

to work at Microsoft has built the

14:25

company. But when people are talking about

14:27

banning a company that is be loved

14:29

by over hundred million Americans and a

14:31

billion people around the world where we're

14:33

really exporting the you know the great

14:35

culture of America and all is terrific

14:37

videos that people are doing. It's

14:39

really unfortunate and it's very on.

14:42

American People are saying that look

14:44

the reality is mean it emerged

14:46

eat. You may say it's simply

14:48

not happening and and it's simply

14:50

wouldn't happen. But the reality is

14:52

that under Chinese law Point Dance

14:54

which owns Tic Toc he does

14:56

have feelings too. The Tony states

14:58

i skimmed has a golden share

15:01

in it. and under Chinese law

15:03

it is conceivable that the app

15:05

to be compelled to turn over

15:07

personal data to Beijing. Will

15:09

Now that's mean one we've we've said

15:11

multiple times would never share data with

15:13

the Chinese government. are you even or

15:15

it was owned by Chinese rule Of

15:17

course of course are so one. I

15:19

mean so tic toc you know is

15:21

not available in China. were incorporated in

15:23

the United States and were also under

15:25

Us law. I think that detail is

15:27

often ignored. We do have to comply

15:29

with a lot of the land will

15:31

be operate men in the Us specifically.

15:33

We've been moving us user data over

15:35

colorful and putting on data controls in

15:38

place but also to clarify. When you said

15:40

the golden Chair that is for it energy

15:42

within China that is not the owner of

15:44

Tic Toc And so again I know international

15:46

laws is very complex and is a lotta

15:48

different pieces here but the reality is our

15:51

company. In any company you're required to comply

15:53

with the laws in that in the country

15:55

where operating and for the United States Tic

15:57

Toc has in a corporation hear him required

15:59

to. To comply with Us law. Michael.

16:02

Documents and tic tac. Speaking to the

16:04

Bbc a year ago so that the

16:06

official view but it's still up for

16:08

debate and I know. I guess I

16:10

could have lots of a about this

16:12

is by Dance a Chinese company Jeremy,

16:15

Let's start with you. Yes,

16:17

it is a Chinese companies are

16:19

two hundred percent Chinese company and

16:21

it's completely disingenuous to suggest that

16:23

somehow you know Tic Toc is

16:25

not owned by that company. I

16:27

do think, though, in the United

16:30

States, sometimes it does get mischaracterized

16:32

as Go By Dances an actual

16:34

agent of the Chinese Communist Party.

16:36

Like pretty much all Chinese companies,

16:38

I believe By Dance does not

16:40

welcome interference or guidance from the

16:42

Chinese government of the Chinese Communist

16:45

Party. But unfortunately for them. They

16:47

don't have a choice and that's where the

16:49

problem is. Louis. Is what would you have

16:51

to say? This. Yeah. I think that

16:53

you know this is definitely a Chinese

16:55

company. There's absolutely no doubt about that.

16:57

But I do think that it does

16:59

often get maybe for a new not

17:01

as much attention at that. Yeah, this

17:03

is a company that hires American investors

17:05

global investors from other parts of the

17:07

world, but I think more than with

17:09

the hypothetical of okay, while at the

17:11

Chinese Communist Party as tic toc to

17:14

do some banks, they would have a

17:16

hard time saying no. I think

17:18

you know the next question naturally

17:20

follows. Is what would they ask and

17:22

how likely it it is it that we

17:24

would be able to. Tell if tic

17:26

toc you know, deep into some sort. Of

17:28

demands right? Like what exactly are we worried about

17:31

here? I think what happens within the last four

17:33

years that this to be has been going on

17:35

about whether or not to talk should be banned

17:37

in the. Us What I've seen time

17:39

and time again is sort of these

17:41

hypothetical about like okay well this could.

17:44

happen or that could happen because of

17:46

the ownership structure of by dance but

17:48

i sort of want to know like

17:50

what exactly are we worried about is

17:52

it election interference is it's other concerns

17:54

because i think that the hypothetical is

17:57

always going to be there but you

17:59

know everything get in a car, the hypothetical

18:01

that you get in an accident is possible, right? So

18:03

like, you have to get into the specifics. Okay,

18:06

so let's get into the specifics. You know, at

18:08

the core of the debate is

18:10

whether a social media giant operating

18:12

in the United States but with

18:14

links to China can be trusted.

18:16

So let's hear the experience of

18:18

Christina Criddle, a technology writer for

18:20

the Financial Times. There

18:22

are definite security concerns and

18:24

I know about these first hands

18:27

because my own TikTok account

18:29

was accessed by ByteDance staff

18:31

in China and they

18:33

used my personal information, including my

18:35

location data, to track me and

18:37

to try and find out where I was. And

18:40

that was basically because I was reporting a lot

18:42

about the company, finding lots of exclusives

18:44

on the company. So it has

18:46

been used in this kind of

18:48

way. What hasn't been shown is

18:50

whether the Chinese state has

18:53

ever used TikTok in this way. So

18:55

Christina learned in December 2022 that

18:57

she'd been tracked by ByteDance employees,

18:59

an incident the company says was

19:01

not authorized by the company's management.

19:04

So Louise, let's go back to you again.

19:06

There's an example. What do you think we

19:08

should take from this case then? Is it

19:10

a rogue incident or should it

19:12

give us a warning about what TikTok or

19:14

ByteDance is capable of? First,

19:17

let me be completely clear that

19:19

this incident was an utter disaster.

19:21

So what happened here was that

19:24

an internal security team at

19:26

TikTok was found to have

19:28

accessed TikTok data in order

19:30

to track and try and

19:32

figure out who was

19:34

leaking internal information to a

19:37

number of reporters, including the Financial Times

19:39

reporter we just heard from. There was

19:41

also a BuzzFeed reporter named Emily. And this

19:44

was definitely disturbing, but I also

19:47

reported on this team. And what

19:49

I found was a sort

19:51

of rogue team of often former

19:53

Western Law

19:56

enforcement and intelligence officials who were sort

19:58

of able to act with. Unity

20:00

and they were interviewing

20:02

employees internally. They were sort of

20:04

running this internal police department that in a

20:07

lot of ways I think was definitely. Overreaching,

20:09

But sort of like the Financial

20:12

Times reporter said there, I still

20:14

don't. Know whether that was.

20:17

Evidence of. Tic. Tacs

20:19

Chinese ownership. Being a

20:21

problem or. A sort of

20:23

more. Banal. Issue with

20:26

their corporate governance Riot like that showed

20:28

me that there were problems with how

20:30

the data was being accessed, but I'm

20:32

not sure if that's the problem that

20:34

could it happen. Other companies. Limbic

20:37

Women would you have to say in response to

20:39

this case in particular before we move on. Yeah,

20:42

so I don't think this is something

20:45

we should just accept have a normal

20:47

course of business from social media companies.

20:49

I think it speaks to. A

20:52

disregard for. The. Institutions of

20:54

our democracy such as a free

20:56

press, A willingness to surveil

20:59

and track. People who might

21:01

threaten the company and a know if

21:03

it really reminds me of. And

21:05

I think this offer speaks to

21:07

the intent were an incident where

21:10

the Chinese State was involved not

21:12

online, but it reminds me of

21:14

an incident that the Department of

21:16

Justice filed indictment on a Back

21:18

In and Twenty Twenty Two where

21:21

they. Accused Chinese State

21:23

Security Services. Of harassing

21:25

Ain't Congressional candidate for New York office

21:27

who was in fact the Chinese dissident

21:30

that had participated in the Tim Square

21:32

protests, the Hong Kong Protests and had

21:34

moved to the United States and man

21:36

was running for office in New York

21:39

State. And the the O

21:41

J complaint alleged that these tiny

21:43

security agents were trying to dig

21:45

up information about his whereabouts, trying

21:47

to dig up dirt on him

21:50

to denigrate his candidacy. and the

21:52

even went so far as to

21:54

say to a private investigator to

21:56

consider beating him. The skins it

21:58

it until it. That run for

22:01

election. So I think that's what

22:03

we're up against here. A Chinese

22:05

state that is willing to go

22:07

to these extreme length including meddling

22:09

in very nefarious ways in Us

22:11

elections. And even in this instant,

22:13

it wasn't on to talk itself.

22:15

But I think that's the concern.

22:17

And that's what the spying issue

22:19

with the journalists really reminds me

22:22

of in Germany is tic toc

22:24

really? A National Security threat In

22:26

the United States? I mean, it's banned

22:28

from phones and other devices owned by

22:30

the Federal government or employees at the

22:32

Federal government. Why would? What are they

22:34

fear? Well, I

22:36

think the refuses owed I think

22:38

touch of Primary series the harvesting

22:41

or data that could be used

22:43

to harm Us national security interests.

22:45

So that would be if Tic

22:47

Toc is installed on phones of

22:49

government officials are using. I think

22:52

there are other fears that or

22:54

perhaps more speculative. I think one

22:56

mistake Pups Tic Toc just made

22:58

this week was in response to

23:00

the bill in the house states

23:03

last too many Tic Toc uses.

23:05

Devices I don't if all of them

23:07

in the United States a message calling

23:10

on them to call up their government

23:12

representatives and protest potential ban of Tic

23:14

Toc And as soon as I saw

23:16

that, I thought, well, that's kind of

23:19

proven what Tic Toc could do. Bill

23:21

Imagine there was a war over Taiwan,

23:23

the Us and China. In a war,

23:25

Tic Toc could flush a mess mess

23:28

as every single Tic Toc user. With.

23:30

This informational misinformation. So I mean

23:32

that that is absolutely technically possible.

23:34

And it's also possible because of

23:37

the fact that By Dance is

23:39

headquartered in Beijing. Maybe not legally,

23:41

but the actual operationally and f

23:43

would have to comply with the

23:45

government request. However, I do think

23:47

a lot of the discussion about

23:49

tic toc in China is verging

23:51

on sort of yellow peril territory.

23:53

There's some of the the tone

23:56

of the rhetoric is that you

23:58

know nothing. that's even say. Connected

24:00

to China can be trusted so it can

24:02

make it difficult to think clearly about it

24:04

because on the one hand you do have

24:06

some slightly paranoid rak tracks or the other

24:08

hand I think the risks of their you

24:10

real i think louise previously used analogy of

24:12

you know as you get an acog go

24:15

for drives You know that that things could

24:17

happen but you are you willing to take

24:19

that risk and I think that's true but

24:21

on the other hand we have you not

24:23

very advanced systems of laws and safety requirements

24:25

and rules such as you have to wear

24:27

a seatbelt to time minimize that risk. So

24:29

I. Think addressing the risk of tic toc is

24:31

a completely reasonable thing for the United States. Do

24:34

I don't know if this bill is the best

24:36

way of doing as. A

24:38

reminder you're listening to the real

24:40

stories and the Bbc World Service

24:42

With me Celia Hatton this week.

24:45

We're. Looking at Picked Up Is

24:47

this an At full of goofy

24:49

videos or and doesn't pose a

24:51

Us National Security threat or both?

24:53

We have a great panel of

24:55

Guess this week. Louise Matsakis is

24:58

a freelance journalist covering technology and

25:00

China. She writes you may also

25:02

like a newsletter about ecommerce and

25:04

Chinese tech giants. She joins us

25:07

from Los Angeles. Jeremy Gold

25:09

Corn is an editorial fellow at the

25:11

Asia Societies China File website, sounding editor

25:14

in chief of the China Project, and

25:16

cofounder of the Senate a podcast Steal

25:18

It In China for more than twenty

25:21

years, but now lives in the Us

25:23

where he joins Us from Nashville, Tennessee.

25:26

And Lindsay Gorman, head of Technology

25:28

and Geopolitics team at the Transatlantic

25:30

Nonpartisan Alliance for Securing Democracy. She

25:33

joins us from Austin, Texas. You'll

25:35

hear more from them in just

25:38

a moment. But first,

25:40

we just explored why some believe

25:42

tic toc poses a threat. So

25:44

what are U S politicians doing

25:46

about it? as you

25:48

heard earlier this week the

25:50

house of representatives voted overwhelmingly

25:52

in favor of a bill

25:54

called the protecting americans from

25:56

for an adversary controlled applications

25:58

act the bill is

26:01

backed by the Senate, signed by the

26:03

president, and survives legal challenges in the

26:05

courts, it could result in the effective

26:08

banning of TikTok in the United States.

26:11

But a lot could happen before that takes

26:13

place. TikTok's parent company,

26:15

ByteDance, would first get the option

26:17

to sell the app to an

26:20

American entity within a six-month time

26:22

period. Republican Congressman Mike

26:24

Gallagher cosponsored the bill. TikTok

26:28

is a threat to our national security because

26:30

it is owned by ByteDance,

26:32

which does the bidding of the Chinese

26:34

Communist Party. We know this because ByteDance

26:36

leadership says so and because

26:38

Chinese law requires it. This

26:40

bill therefore forces TikTok to break

26:43

up with the Chinese Communist Party.

26:45

It does not apply

26:47

to American companies. It only

26:49

applies to companies subject to

26:51

the control of foreign adversaries

26:53

defined by Congress. While

26:56

most of his colleagues in the

26:58

House agreed, the bill overwhelmingly passed

27:00

the chamber, 352

27:03

votes to 65. But

27:05

Democrat Robert Garcia was one of

27:07

those voting no. Any

27:10

ban on TikTok is not just banning

27:12

the freedom of expression. You

27:15

are literally causing huge

27:17

harm to our

27:19

national economy. We

27:21

have small business owners that are here

27:24

and small business owners from across the

27:26

country that use TikTok to

27:28

move our economy forward. All

27:30

of our social media platforms need to be treated

27:33

equally and need to be treated

27:35

the same way. To single out TikTok in

27:37

this way, we believe is dangerous

27:39

and certainly against freedom of

27:41

expression. Well, that last

27:44

point concerns that this bill might curb Americans'

27:46

freedom of expression is shared

27:48

by campaigners for the American

27:50

Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU.

27:52

Here's what they said, the

27:55

House's TikTok bill is a ban and

27:57

its blatant censorship. Today, the House is

28:00

representatives voted to violate the

28:02

First Amendment rights of more

28:04

than half the country. The

28:06

Senate must reject this unconstitutional

28:08

and reckless bill. Well,

28:11

for his part, President Biden has said

28:13

he'd sign the bill if it passes

28:15

both houses of Congress. Now let's turn

28:17

to our guests. How likely is it

28:20

that this bill will actually make it

28:22

through? Now, we have to remember it's

28:24

an election year, and this is a

28:26

really popular app used by millions of

28:29

Americans every day. Louise, let's start with

28:31

you. I feel like kind

28:33

of the girl who has cried wolf with

28:35

the TikTok ban. For four years now, there's

28:37

sort of been a number of different legislative

28:39

efforts to get this ban passed.

28:41

But I would say that this is definitely

28:44

the most likely

28:46

effort so far to actually

28:48

work. The reason that I think that is you're

28:50

seeing a lot of sort of unusual political

28:52

alliances. When former President

28:54

Trump proposed this in 2020, it

28:56

was sort of a Republican-led effort. And

28:59

now you've actually seen Trump flip-flop. So

29:01

now Trump is saying that he doesn't want to

29:03

see the app banned. But at the

29:05

same time, a number of Democrats have taken up

29:07

this issue as well. So

29:09

right now, President Biden is saying that

29:12

he would sign the legislation, but you

29:14

also have a number of Democrats in

29:16

the Senate where the bill needs to

29:18

go first who are saying that they

29:20

are not going to support it. So

29:23

while there's now both sort of Republican and

29:25

Democratic support that's uneven, it's very

29:27

bipartisan. So that's why I am

29:29

sort of optimistic, if you can

29:31

use that word in this case, that this bill

29:34

is actually going to be put into law. Just

29:36

saying with you for a second, what would

29:38

this bill actually do? It would force a

29:40

possible sale. What if that doesn't happen? So

29:43

this bill is still pretty vague. It's a

29:45

very short piece of legislation. So what would

29:48

happen is that if it were to pass,

29:50

by dance would have 180 days or about six

29:54

months to either divest the US

29:56

business or sell it off to

29:59

another investor. or to leave the

30:01

US market altogether. But there are

30:03

a lot of questions about what

30:05

sort of corporate structure would appease

30:07

lawmakers. It's not clear exactly like

30:09

how that sale would have to

30:11

happen, whether all the forms would

30:13

have to be signed within 180 days. And

30:17

it's also not clear if you

30:19

were only to sell TikTok US,

30:21

what would happen to the rest

30:23

of the app, right? Would this

30:25

be a separate platform from TikTok

30:28

in France or TikTok in South

30:30

Africa? Or would there

30:32

still be some sort of integration or

30:35

would it be an app that competes against

30:37

the international version of TikTok? Lindsay,

30:39

let's turn over to you. How likely do

30:41

you think it is that this bill will

30:43

actually make it through? It

30:45

does seem like there are some encouraging signs.

30:48

The fact that it passed the

30:50

House overwhelmingly when it was originally

30:52

introduced, it was 50-0 out of

30:54

committee. We've gotten some dissenting votes

30:57

when it passed the broader House. But

30:59

now the Senate has to take it

31:01

up. And we've already had

31:03

the chairman and the vice chairman of

31:05

the Senate Intelligence Committee, probably the committee

31:08

that's most relevant to this bill come

31:10

out in support of it. They say

31:12

they will vote yes. So I

31:15

think the chances are fairly good

31:17

that there will be some action here.

31:19

There's just an incredible amount of urgency,

31:21

I think, now, given that we are

31:23

in an election year and

31:26

that some of these national security

31:28

concerns being raised by lawmakers are

31:30

around the ability for the Chinese

31:32

Communist Party to use TikTok to

31:34

influence the US election in November.

31:37

I want to just hinge on the fact that you said

31:39

very close to the start of your

31:41

answer that it's encouraging that this bill has made

31:44

it this far. So can you just talk a

31:46

little bit about your feelings about this bill? I mean,

31:48

you clearly support it. Yeah, I

31:50

do. Look, I think it's not a perfect solution, But

31:53

we've really run out the clock on action

31:55

when it comes to TikTok. And One of

31:58

the things that I think is helpful... About

32:00

the Tell if it really gets to

32:02

the heart of the matter, it's not

32:05

saying let's just be and tic tacs.

32:07

It's not trying to keep tic toc

32:09

data somehow in the United States, it's

32:11

really about this ownership christian and influence.

32:14

And that's the real concern that the

32:16

Chinese Communist Party could influence to talk

32:18

through his ownership relationship. And so that's

32:21

what's trying to be severed. No case.

32:23

A Let's let's keep looking at that

32:25

length and let's look at at the

32:28

reactions within China to all of. This

32:30

the Chinese state media say efforts to

32:32

force a tick tock sales or another

32:34

attempt at specced on a grand scale

32:37

commentator who Cds had this to say

32:39

on the state media outlet The Global

32:41

Times. Picked. Up has conquered

32:44

young Americans and become popular

32:46

all of the world. Yet

32:48

it is not controlled by

32:50

America and capital. Some

32:53

American political you leave simply

32:55

greens and beats and can't

32:58

wait to snooty top of

33:00

Bandaid if the. Responsibilities

33:03

and that the Chinese government

33:05

could tell by dance not

33:07

to sell. Oh, absolutely they

33:10

could. I'd like to say it's

33:12

remarkable hypocrisy for the your posts.

33:14

Like Kosygin, who works for has

33:16

most his career worked for a

33:18

Chinese propaganda media to call out

33:20

the U S fool. I'm you

33:22

know, trying to block a foreigner

33:24

and website when no major photo

33:26

web sites or news or social

33:29

media platforms are available in China.

33:31

Master Emily. Also to point out that who is

33:33

he didn't have a massive Twitter following and Twitter is

33:35

banned inside Done as. An. A C S. I

33:37

know that hypocrisy is is is is

33:39

extraordinary budget Indeed, the Chinese government could

33:41

absolutely stop by dogs from selling tic

33:44

toc. They might very well do that.

33:46

Could. This lead to the further

33:48

balkanization of the internet German. I

33:50

yes it could, and that's one of

33:53

the things I don't like about this

33:55

bill is that it seems to me

33:57

a very heavy handed way of regulating

33:59

sex. I don't know if is an

34:01

easy way to do it that doesn't lead to

34:04

the further balkanization of as that. Maybe that is

34:06

just a reality we have to face. Louise,

34:08

what's your thought on? S? I mean

34:11

you have companies already dominate the internet

34:13

globally is they're a danger? A more

34:15

fractured internet will harm Silicon Valley. Yeah.

34:18

I definitely think. That that's a huge risk.

34:20

Care For example, if this Bill

34:23

Wirtz pasts what's to. Stop You

34:25

know the leader of India Modi from

34:27

turning around and saying it's a national

34:30

security risk Thoughts: You tube in India

34:32

or Facebook or Instagram is controlled by

34:34

a foreign power. Therefore we're going to

34:37

pass a law for saying Google and

34:39

Matter to sell those businesses to an

34:41

Indian and buster right? I think.

34:44

The. Problem with this bill is

34:46

that it signals that you

34:48

know people who support it

34:50

are okay with sacrificing as

34:52

the global internet. For.

34:54

Us National Security. and if you want to make

34:56

that argument, I think that perhaps there is a

34:59

way to make it with. Merits And

35:01

the other concern that I

35:03

have is whether or not

35:05

the ownership structure is exactly.

35:08

The right way to deal with these

35:10

issues Your for example, if you're concerned

35:12

about election interference for sure You know

35:14

the Chinese Communist Party could put pressure

35:17

on Tic Toc to change as algorithm

35:19

in a certain. Way But what

35:21

we've seen so far is that.

35:23

Russia, China, and you know other

35:25

foreign powers around the world. Fab

35:27

tried to sway elections to spread

35:30

disinformation on platforms that they do

35:32

not own and in many cases

35:34

have been successful at bad. So

35:36

is the ownership structure. The

35:39

way that this actually. Happens, I

35:41

would say that history shows us. it's not

35:43

to go back to the car analogy to

35:45

I feel safer driver on a car because

35:48

every. Single car manufacturer is required to

35:50

include seat belt. Is it better to

35:52

just ban the Chinese car in this

35:54

case or to pass you know, More

35:57

comprehensive legislation that is the equivalent.

35:59

of a seat belt for the internet. I

36:01

worry that efforts to pass a national privacy law

36:03

in the US have sort of stalled and

36:05

all of the attention is now focused on

36:07

this bill. And I think that that's by

36:10

design, right? It's better for Silicon Valley if

36:12

the focus is on TikTok and getting rid of

36:14

one of their major competitors. And I

36:16

worry that while this

36:18

is happening, and we're only discussing

36:20

this single app, for example, is there

36:23

Chinese disinformation spreading on

36:26

X, the platform formerly known as

36:28

Twitter, which has gutted its moderation

36:30

teams. And historically, I would say

36:32

has been much a

36:34

much more prominent platform for Chinese

36:37

dissidents for discussions that I think

36:39

the Chinese Communist Party doesn't like.

36:41

And it's also the platform where

36:43

Chinese propagandists also spend a lot

36:45

of their time. So I

36:48

worry that we're focusing on this app that

36:51

has not really been a platform for that

36:53

sort of activity. And I don't think it

36:55

hasn't been because it's owned by ByteDance. I

36:57

think it just hasn't been sort of because

36:59

of the way of the internet, right? And

37:01

where different communities congregate. Lindsay, I

37:03

want to turn back to you in this

37:05

concept that this bill could lead force

37:08

all companies to choose effectively between

37:10

one axis or the other between

37:12

the US or China. What's your

37:14

response to that? I

37:17

would push back on that notion slightly.

37:19

Look, I think we're definitely in an

37:21

age of de-risking or decoupling. And

37:23

we're, as democracies evaluating to

37:25

what extent we should have

37:28

dependence on autocratic states like

37:30

Russia and China, especially when it comes

37:32

to critical infrastructure. We saw

37:34

this in the case of

37:36

debates over Huawei, another Chinese

37:38

telecommunications company's presence in

37:41

our 5G and advanced telecommunications

37:43

networks. And the United States

37:45

and many other democracies decided that that was

37:48

too big a risk. I don't think putting

37:50

some of these guardrails on necessarily means that

37:52

we're on a slippery slope to a full

37:54

decoupling. And perhaps there are some in the

37:56

United States that would advocate for that, but

37:59

I do think that there's a fine

38:01

line to walk here while recognizing and

38:03

mitigating against some of the national security

38:05

threats. And I would also add that

38:07

this idea of a forced sale is

38:09

not something that's without precedent. A

38:11

few years ago, the LGBTQ

38:14

dating app Grindr actually

38:16

was subject to a similar national security action.

38:18

It had been owned by

38:20

another Chinese company, Kunlun Tech,

38:22

and the Committee on Foreign

38:24

Investment in the United States,

38:27

the committee that reviews potential

38:29

concerns concerning foreign influence ties,

38:32

actually decided that this was

38:34

too big a national security

38:36

risk, largely based

38:38

on these questions of the data and access

38:40

to the data. And so it

38:42

was required to be sold to a

38:45

company that was not headquartered in

38:47

China. Let's just talk practicalities for

38:49

a moment. Who might be in

38:51

line to buy TikTok? Louise?

38:54

Former Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin is apparently

38:57

getting together a group of investors who

38:59

are interested in purchasing TikTok. But

39:02

I think going back to what Jeremy said,

39:04

any investors that are interested in making this

39:06

acquisition are going to have to navigate whether

39:09

or not ByteDance will actually allow the

39:11

app to be sold. And I

39:13

think some of the biggest entities in the US that

39:15

could afford potentially a $50 billion

39:18

price tag are other companies in Silicon

39:20

Valley. And in those cases, I don't

39:22

know if there would be an anti-competitive

39:24

concern there from other parts of the

39:26

US government. Like, would it really make

39:29

sense to allow a Google

39:31

or a Meta or an Amazon

39:33

to purchase another major platform? And

39:37

of course, let's not forget possible

39:39

legal challenges, even if this bill

39:42

is signed into law. It could

39:44

face lengthy challenges in

39:46

the court. Lindsay, can you take

39:48

us through what hurdles might come up for it? One

39:52

question that has come up in Washington in

39:54

the context of this bill is whether there

39:56

is a bill of attainder issue, which is

39:58

a legal term that essentially... requires

40:00

legislation not to single out

40:03

a particular company. And as

40:05

far as I understand, the

40:07

lawyers are reviewing whether this

40:09

bill does have this bill

40:11

of a tanger issue, which could present

40:13

some kind of challenge in

40:15

the case that we do go through with

40:18

a ban if TikTok and ByteDance

40:20

are not able to divest in

40:22

the 180-day period. That's when I

40:24

think we'd be more likely to

40:26

see some of these First Amendment

40:29

challenges that the ACLU and other

40:31

organizations have put forward in the

40:33

context of related attempts to

40:35

ban the app. That's right. I mean,

40:37

the ACLU, we have to remember, says

40:39

that this bill represents a threat to

40:41

the First Amendment that guarantees freedom of

40:44

speech, freedom of expression. Lindsay,

40:46

what's your perspective on this? Do you think

40:48

that this really could pose

40:50

a challenge to the bill? I

40:52

think it's less likely than in the case of

40:54

some bills that just tried to ban the app

40:57

all outright. We did see during

40:59

the Trump administration, the Trump administration

41:01

tried to ban the app using

41:04

legal authorities under the

41:06

International Emergency Economic Powers Act,

41:08

and that did get hung

41:10

up in U.S. courts. I

41:12

think what's different here is

41:15

Congress passing a national security-based

41:17

law that provides a mitigation

41:19

is on a

41:21

much stronger legal footing than

41:23

an outright attempt to only ban the

41:26

app. Okay, let's move on.

41:28

Let's move past this bill and on

41:30

to alternatives, because many people

41:32

say that this bill

41:34

isn't the way to address concerns

41:36

surrounding TikTok. There are other examples

41:38

of other countries that have dealt

41:40

with TikTok in different ways. For

41:42

example, India has passed an outright

41:45

ban on the app. Other

41:47

countries have been tightening their data privacy

41:49

laws. Jeremy, what lessons

41:51

are there for the United

41:54

States in potentially drafting laws

41:56

to address the concerns that

41:59

some have? regarding TikTok

42:01

and other social media apps like it? I

42:05

don't think there are actually, honestly, any

42:08

good lessons out there. This is a

42:10

brave new world where,

42:12

you know, the globalized internet has

42:14

all kinds of consequences

42:17

that some of them we still don't

42:19

know. And of

42:21

course we're in the year where

42:23

artificial intelligence is a new factor in the

42:25

mix. So I don't really think there's anything

42:27

out there that I know of that the

42:29

US could learn from. One

42:31

attempt to regulate TikTok that

42:34

I thought was a promising

42:36

direction was the so-called

42:38

Project Texas, which was the idea

42:40

that TikTok should have all

42:42

of its US data stored only

42:45

in US territory, and it

42:47

was going to be in Texas, and that

42:49

it would be supervised by a US company,

42:51

Oracle. And I would be interested

42:53

to see more detail on that and how

42:55

that might work. But I

42:58

don't think this is an easy question.

43:00

I don't think there are any easy

43:02

answers to how to deal with TikTok.

43:05

And I myself don't think it should just

43:07

be left to do as it pleases, because

43:09

I think there are some

43:12

potentially very big risks associated

43:14

with it. Okay,

43:16

so if we stick with our car

43:19

without seatbelts analogy, Louise, what

43:21

do you think? How could we put seatbelts onto

43:23

this car and other cars like it, other apps?

43:26

I mean, many argue that what

43:28

the United States really needs is

43:30

a data protection law, not just

43:32

a bill that looks at TikTok's

43:34

ownership. I completely

43:36

agree that we need a national privacy

43:38

law that will regulate how

43:40

personal data is bought and sold, how

43:42

it's transferred, how that data can be

43:44

collected, and the ways that it can

43:46

be used. That will be the equivalent

43:48

of sort of a seatbelt for every

43:50

car. And I think that we

43:52

can also look at what happened in India when

43:55

they banned TikTok in 2020. I do

43:57

think that there are two lessons there. And one is

43:59

that... We saw that the winners

44:01

were YouTube and meta. So I think, you

44:03

know, similarly here, if TikTok does end up

44:06

being banned, I think we can expect a

44:08

lot of that business to flow back to

44:10

sort of the existing social media giants. And

44:13

the second thing is that India has continued to

44:15

have to play whack-a-mole with Chinese apps.

44:18

So they've had to ban other Chinese apps.

44:20

You saw, you know, other platforms

44:22

that Indians were using that were also

44:24

owned by Chinese entities, and they've just

44:26

continued to have to sort of ban

44:28

them in batches. And I'm not sure

44:30

that getting rid of this one app

44:32

necessarily solved any particular problem,

44:35

except for if the

44:37

problem was that, you know, meta didn't have enough market

44:39

share in India, that certainly has been solved. But I

44:41

think it was just sort of a such a

44:43

narrow approach. And I worry that we'll have

44:45

the same issue here, and that after this

44:48

election later this year, we'll see that sort

44:50

of there were Chinese disinformation efforts that were

44:52

very worrisome that were happening on other platforms

44:54

that we weren't paying as much attention to.

44:58

Look, clearly a best

45:00

case solution would be a risk-based

45:02

framework that Congress or the executive

45:05

branch could clearly lay out that

45:07

spells out very precisely, what

45:09

are the national security risks we are worried

45:12

about, not just with TikTok, but with all

45:14

what I call autocratic apps, social

45:16

media platforms, other e-commerce platforms,

45:18

apps that are based in an

45:20

autocratic country like China or Russia. We

45:23

need a risk-based framework so that we're

45:25

not playing whack-a-mole, so that we don't

45:27

have to have this lengthy discussion every

45:29

single time, because there will be another

45:31

Chinese app. Lemon8 was popping

45:33

up a few months ago. There's going

45:35

to be another one. This is a

45:37

vibrant technology ecosystem coming out of Beijing

45:39

and Shanghai, and there are

45:42

going to be more Chinese

45:44

platforms that we have to deal with.

45:46

So a more rigorous risk-based framework would

45:48

be by far a better outcome

45:50

than focusing in on

45:53

particular apps here and there. And this

45:55

framework would stop. Is it a data

45:57

security risk? Is there a propaganda and

45:59

influence? risk? Is there another

46:01

risk that we should be worried about and

46:04

make recommendations on mitigations that are

46:06

proportional to the risk? One

46:08

class of apps that comes up a lot

46:11

in these conversations are the

46:13

e-commerce platforms, Teemu and Xian, where

46:15

people are buying clothes and other

46:17

goods online. Is that a national

46:19

security risk? I would put that

46:22

maybe in a data security risk,

46:24

but clearly a lower order risk

46:26

than a data plus

46:28

propaganda platform that we have in TikTok.

46:31

So there the mitigation would be lower,

46:33

maybe not a for sale, maybe just

46:35

a ban on government devices, people who

46:37

have access to sensitive data that the

46:39

app could potentially scrape. This more holistic

46:41

framework is clearly where we need to

46:44

go. Unfortunately, we I

46:46

think don't have time to do that

46:48

before the November election and TikTok is

46:50

clearly the biggest threat in the bunch

46:53

right now, but I would like to

46:55

see a more thorough risk based framework.

46:57

On the question of Project Texas, I

46:59

still think it was really inadequate. It

47:02

didn't fit the bill because even if

47:04

data is localized in the United States,

47:07

what's the risk when it comes to this

47:09

data? The risk is that data

47:11

on Americans can be used to influence them.

47:13

Even if you house all that data in

47:16

the United States, the Chinese

47:18

Communist Party could still direct

47:21

ByteDance and direct TikTok to use that

47:23

data without it ever having to go

47:25

to China to influence Americans in particular

47:27

ways for its political purposes. So that's

47:29

why I think the Project Texas really

47:32

did fall a bit flat in DC

47:34

because it wasn't getting at the heart

47:36

of the risk. Okay,

47:38

if we're talking about possible solutions,

47:41

though, are we misdirecting our focus?

47:43

We've been talking a lot about

47:45

government solutions to dealing with any

47:47

threats or concerns posed by TikTok

47:50

and other social media apps. But

47:53

what about the addictive qualities of TikTok

47:55

or those who say it's really up

47:57

to parents to watch over how young

48:00

People use the up. I

48:03

figure for very good point I think

48:05

before answering it either. I should say

48:07

that perhaps one of the reasons why

48:10

Tic Toc is creating such a controversy

48:12

in the United States is that the

48:14

people who make the laws have teenage

48:16

children and the Is are very worried

48:18

about the effects of Tic Toc on

48:20

the kids. So I don't think it's

48:22

just the China Concern. I think you're

48:25

absolutely right that parents should do more

48:27

to monitor what their their children are

48:29

doing on digital devices and I think

48:31

that's a problem facing. probably. Parents

48:33

across the world, that to very much so

48:35

in the United States. But that's not just

48:38

picked up problem, that's a social media problem.

48:40

I. Totally agree. I think that. What you're

48:42

seeing hop in and Congress right now is

48:45

sort of the conflation of two things that

48:47

are perhaps the only issue that Democrats and

48:49

Republicans agree on, and one of them is

48:51

certainly been tough on China, but the other

48:53

is this belief that social media is harmful

48:56

to children And so I definitely think this

48:58

bill is a response to that. and that

49:00

is a fundamental piece of the picture here

49:02

that sometimes gets lost when the discussion is

49:05

only about be jang. Before

49:07

be close, let's do a bit of

49:09

crystal ball gazing. What shape will Tic

49:11

Tac be in in one year's time?

49:13

Or years time will will. American still

49:15

has easy access to it. Let's get

49:18

your predictions. Let's start with humans. He

49:20

corpsman. I think

49:22

it's very likely that it could be

49:24

banned because China does not allow a

49:26

sale to go through and it becomes

49:29

very clear who's calling the shots on

49:31

bite dance and tic toc. Jeremy.

49:34

I think predictions or a fool's game with

49:36

I'm going to fix. this

49:39

bill doesn't actually end up passing because of

49:41

donald trump turning against us so for example

49:44

in my home state of tennessee we have

49:46

to sell it as one of them his

49:48

name is marsha blackburn who is a very

49:50

loyal trump post and will apart anything he

49:53

says and he's the one of the most

49:55

vocal critics have picked up for years now

49:57

but know that he's changed his mind i'd

50:00

don't see her dissenting. So

50:02

I think it's going to hit political problems before November and

50:04

it's not going to pass. And I think TikTok is still

50:07

going to be used and abused

50:09

by American teens at this time next

50:11

year. Louise, last to you.

50:14

I think within a year something will pass

50:17

in Congress. I don't know if it's going to be this

50:19

bill or another bill, but I bet in March 2025, TikTok

50:23

is still caught up in legal challenges and

50:25

this app is still being used by Americans

50:27

in the meantime. Okay. Well, thank you

50:29

to all three of you. Thank you

50:31

for giving some predictions, although I know

50:34

it's a tricky thing to do. Well,

50:36

that's it for this week on The

50:38

Real Story. Thanks to our guests. Louise

50:41

Mutzakis is a freelance journalist covering technology

50:43

and China. Jeremy Goldkorn is an editorial

50:45

fellow at the Asia Society's China File

50:48

website, founding editor in chief of the

50:50

China Project and co-founder of the Cineco

50:52

Podcast. And Lindsay Gorman, head of technology

50:55

and geopolitics team at the Transatlantic Nonpartisan

50:57

Alliance for Securing Democracy. For

50:59

this week from me, Celia Hatton and the

51:02

team, that's the real story. Thanks for your

51:04

company and do join us again next time.