0:06

Welcome to The RebelRebel. I'm your host, Michael Dargie.

0:08

The RebelRebel is a show dedicated to creative rebels and entrepreneurs all over the world.

0:13

It's a love letter to those people who think audaciously and act courageously

0:18

in service of making the world a better and more interesting place.

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Jazz Cow is about a jazz playing cow, and he leads a resistance movement.

0:27

We were talking about how these superheroes, they always seem to have particular types of skills.

0:32

And I'd watch the credits. I was like, I want to know all about this.

0:36

So it really excited me. And you could barely pull me away from the TV cause I was.

0:40

I loved it so much. John left football but ended up loving cartoons more.

0:45

From conception to credits, he found his life's purpose,

0:48

including a character I've come to love called Jazz Cow

0:52

all the way from the UK. Please welcome to The RebelRebel, the founder of QuirkyMotion.com, John Lumgair.

0:59

Across the planet, literally and across the pond, as they say,

1:03

is John Lumgair John, how the hell are you?

1:07

I'm very well, thank you. And where are you?

1:10

Where are you dialing in from today?

1:13

From my flat in London.

1:16

very nice. Very nice. Yes. I was right across the pond.

1:19

It's that old chestnut, as they say.

1:22

So, John, you've got some really cool stuff going

1:25

on, and I don't want to spoil it, but I will say that I've been excited

1:30

for weeks about being able to talk to you about this project.

1:33

And I wonder if you might sort of give us the lay of the land and to tell the world

1:38

about what you're doing. So I'm working on an animated sitcom called Jazz Cow.

1:45

Yes. And Jazz Cow is about a jazz playing cow,

1:49

and he leads a resistance movement or reluctantly leads

1:52

a resistance movement of artists and poets and painters and

1:59

creative types, musicians.

2:01

And they're they're leading the resistance against algorithms and fake filters.

2:06

And that kind of technocracy and

2:10

all of that. So that's the that's the set up of the world.

2:14

my God, I'm so excited for this.

2:16

When do I get to meet Jazz Cow?

2:19

Well, open. Well, we.

2:23

So may the first.

2:28

May the first. May the first is when we're launching on Kickstarter.

2:31

So if we raise the money,

2:34

then we will start production and

2:39

stuff will be released over time a bit.

2:42

But most of it is going to be probably about a year after that.

2:46

Yeah, fair enough. So let me just frontload

2:48

this conversation by saying, where can people keep up with you?

2:53

Because this will I don't know when people will be listening to this.

2:56

Could be after May, could be well for me.

2:58

But where can they sort of catch up with you on this?

3:01

So JazzCow.co.uk got it.

3:05

Just totally. Okay. It'll be in like the shownotes.

3:08

And wherever wherever we put that, it'll be.

3:11

It'll be. Only somewhere. Okay, so.

3:15

Well, first of all, clearly, I'm thrilled by the idea of Jazz Cow leading the resistance against algorithms.

3:21

You know, it's the bane of my existence.

3:23

I don't love it. And I like that there's, you know, finally a hero for me to get behind.

3:29

You know. So I.

3:33

I mean, I think it's obvious where this might have come from, but maybe

3:36

could you tell me where the idea for Jaz Cao came from?

3:39

Well, it's got a bit of a weird history, so it was cursed.

3:43

It does. Because it does. Yeah.

3:45

So it started with a group of us just having a good laugh,

3:48

and we used to actually have sessions. We would just just spend the evening just laughing Our heads off everything.

3:55

And another thing and we were talking about

3:58

how these superheroes, they always seem to have particular types of skills.

4:02

Right. And why is it always that and why is it always those types of animals?

4:06

So we say, well, what about a cow?

4:08

And what happens if his superhero ability is playing jazz

4:12

and so that was the kind of original concept of jazz cow,

4:18

and it started with just laughing and mucking around.

4:21

But then Guy Chris started doing a drawing of him

4:25

and it kind of then got developed into

4:31

little shorts and went on a bit of a journey.

4:34

And I mean, the, the influence of the,

4:39

the kind of technocracy thing

4:42

originally started with

4:46

this shows how old things the origin of this was

4:49

was originally started when Tony Blair had introduced

4:53

or was trying to produce a law that was

4:58

around surveillance or something

5:00

that seemed really draconian back then.

5:04

Don't you guys have like cameras everywhere in London right now?

5:06

Yeah, we do that probably. I mean, obviously there's this this one. But.

5:11

They're everywhere. They really are.

5:14

And so that's where it originally started. But then when James Carey,

5:19

who's a sitcom writer, got on board, he

5:23

he was really helping shape, shape that and push that further.

5:28

And yeah, the world we're surrounded by now, I mean, with all these

5:34

technocratic. Yeah.

5:37

Whether it's Elon Musk or

5:41

Bill Gates or

5:44

Mark Zuckerberg, all these people, they they have disproportionate influence in our lives.

5:49

So it's time to level the playing field.

5:52

Yeah. And it's me.

5:55

I remember I lost my phone a while back

5:57

and I then tried.

6:01

I thought, I don't I like not having a fight. I am want this can get into my bank.

6:06

I couldn't even use some of the software that I was trying to do

6:09

for my work because it needed to stage all said authentication.

6:13

Right. And it's like these people, they have you.

6:16

Right? And can you imagine if you don't have that,

6:19

like if you don't have the resources to have a have a cell phone, like you're at a huge disadvantage?

6:24

Well, actually, I had that with my tax return.

6:27

They owed me some tax, but I couldn't get my money back

6:31

because my phone wasn't up to date enough, wasn't flashy enough in order to do the.

6:38

This is a crazy world we're in.

6:40

This is why we need to ask how it is.

6:44

Okay. So all right, so let me let me let me go back

6:48

further in time, because time travel is one of my superpowers.

6:52

I mean, clearly, it's a good one.

6:55

Yeah. Thanks. And if I if I could get you to take us back in history, back to

7:01

and I don't know when this might have happened to you, what happened for you?

7:06

I don't know. But what is it that sort of turned young John into?

7:12

You know, maybe he's an idealistic artist at school or a writer or

7:17

or maybe you're not. Maybe you're not into any of that. Maybe you're like a footballer, whatever that happens to be.

7:23

How did you go from there? What was that to here?

7:27

So as a kid, I actually loved football,

7:31

but I soon realized I wasn't going to be a professional footballer.

7:34

And actually that kind of stopped me down those tracks.

7:39

But for the most part I was.

7:42

I love drawing. I loved watching TV.

7:47

I got square eyes because I was just

7:50

wanting to watch as many cartoons as I possibly could.

7:52

Yeah, not that they showed that many back then.

7:56

And I'd watched the credits. I was like, I want to know all about this.

8:00

So it really excited me. And you could barely

8:02

pull me away from the TV because I was I loved it so much.

8:06

And then it's like that doing those drawings, loving

8:09

to tell stories, seeing the drawings coming alive and all of that.

8:13

It kind of set me on this path. It's not a great one for making money, but it's it's.

8:19

Kind of the way out.

8:23

Not unlike chess. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

8:26

That's probably why there's an affinity.

8:28

Yeah. Are you a musician at all?

8:31

Well, I have a trumpet.

8:34

I haven't given up, but I haven't played in about 20 years, so.

8:38

But even when I've been poor, I've never sold it.

8:41

So that's a sign that I haven't given up.

8:44

I did pull out

8:48

just after lockdown because we had a little boy

8:50

around our house and he asked me to play and I did for him.

8:54

And my wife was angry because she says, for years, you've never played it for me

8:59

that this little kid asks, Didn't you pull it out?

9:01

It's a child's. Play.

9:04

You have to do it. How are your lips after it?

9:06

Because I used to play brass and I remember like,

9:10

if you don't have that practice, you can get them swollen up pretty good.

9:15

They weren't too bad. The biggest problem was the valves.

9:18

When they story in my life

9:26

happens when you ignore stuff for a little.

9:28

Yeah. One of these days I'll.

9:31

I'll get back into it. But you know that time in the future we have time.

9:35

Yeah, yeah, that time. I can't wait for that time.

9:39

It's going to be so good when we get there.

9:42

I can't wait. Yeah. So have you tried? Have you?

9:46

I feel like I haven't explored your past enough yet.

9:49

I mean, I get the fact that you're. You know, I'll just.

9:53

I'll summarize what I heard. So you love football, but you decide that you're

9:57

probably not going to be a professional footballer. You enjoyed

10:01

cartoons like drawing and cartoons on the television.

10:05

You, whatever cartoons are, were back in the day.

10:07

You love them, you loved the credits, you liked everything about it.

10:11

Is that where the story ends with that? Did you like did you go somewhere with your heart?

10:18

So within the British

10:21

education system, that's

10:24

I don't know what age you select subjects.

10:27

And one of the subjects I selected results.

10:30

And then after that you

10:34

there's a system in the UK we have what's called not foundation

10:37

course where you do a broad range of subjects for a year.

10:42

Yeah. Which is really fun.

10:44

And I loved it. I really, really enjoyed that.

10:47

I learned a lot on it.

10:50

Then I did a degree which was not so useful.

10:54

So I did. It degree in animation.

10:58

That sounds useful. Well, you'd think so, except it probably shouldn't have been it degree.

11:03

And then the things that made it a degree made it less useful for animation and it was all too theoretical.

11:10

And I wish I was able to have studied

11:13

under great animators and really learned the craft.

11:17

And I didn't get to all learn really good storytelling

11:22

these days. There's so many opportunities to do that online.

11:25

Very little money. But back then

11:28

the course had a good reputation,

11:31

but it wasn't really.

11:33

It was more about the people I met that was fun.

11:36

So I met some great guys. They're

11:40

friends of friends today. And

11:43

are they part of the jazz? How Universe?

11:46

So two of them were involved

11:49

at the beginning and I saw them recently.

11:52

We caught up. We had a good laugh.

11:54

The back of jazz Jasco and we would they'd be involved in various little bits

12:00

along the way, but they're not like super involved

12:03

with everything. so.

12:07

But the question.

12:10

So when Jazz uses his

12:13

or her superpower, I don't know, nor do I care about the gender of jazz.

12:18

Go But what like what?

12:21

What is this superpower like? Is it just, you know, a line in the universe

12:24

by playing all the wrong notes at all the wrong time?

12:30

So like, how does it work?

12:33

So he

12:36

he has this role of humanizing people,

12:40

weirdly, because he's he's hybrid.

12:43

So he's a cow, but he's in the human world, a

12:48

he's he's not quite in any category.

12:52

And he plays the role of the figurehead that holds

12:57

all the disparate groups together is in the Bahamian culture where he lives.

13:02

They're always bickering. They kind of get on the the argue about jazz genres

13:07

and they're arguing about this, that and the other. And he's like, when he's there,

13:13

it kind of creates they all respect him and he has that effect of humanizing

13:18

because as with all of these algorithms and

13:24

this just this technological kind of techno feudalism,

13:28

if you like, coming in, he's like, you know, we should he's

13:34

cultivating communities, cultivating the kind of

13:38

humanity.

13:41

But it's and then,

13:43

yeah, bands play jazz is,

13:48

is his mechanism for doing that.

13:51

he does he does also free run

13:54

and he has really good hearing.

13:57

Yeah so you.

14:01

He did you say he's free run. Yeah. Like free like a free range cow.

14:05

no no. Sorry. Free run as in or parkour do you.

14:10

Yeah. Okay. I know. Parkour kids.

14:13

my God. He does parkour.

14:15

Because. I read the. House of. I read Cows can't walk down stairs.

14:20

They can only walk up stairs. So. So how do you get downstairs?

14:23

Well, you parkour, obviously. Yeah.

14:27

I couldn't love Jaz cow

14:29

any more than I do right now.

14:33

my God. Did you have you pitched this to networks?

14:37

Yes, I originally we

14:40

we had a it was pitched as a kid show.

14:43

So 10 minutes rather than the 20 minute adult.

14:47

audience. And we pitched it to Cartoon Network and Fox Kids, which actually Fox Kids,

14:54

France and Fox

14:57

Kids showed some interest and then they rebranded.

15:01

They went down a different route and then ended up

15:04

going into a draw and staying there for years.

15:07

And then my writer saw it and he was like, No, you've got to do this.

15:12

You've got to. So then I reworked it and then he came on board later and we reworked it.

15:18

And then there was a guy took it around streaming services in America

15:24

and the feedback he was getting

15:27

is that they're only taking stuff that exists based on existing IP.

15:31

So we could either write a book or a comic

15:34

and then get back into or

15:38

and then I said, Well, what apps if we kick start it?

15:40

And he said, Yeah, that could work. So that's why we're on that route.

15:45

Interesting. Well, I mean,

15:48

the thing that people said, if I was in charge of creative and content development,

15:54

like in one of these studios, this would be something I'd be looking for.

15:58

I don't know why they make that choice, why it has to be existing IP.

16:01

I'm sure there's a reason for it. Maybe they know there's a market for it already.

16:05

What the shape of the market is, but I think that it's interesting.

16:08

Yeah, but I think I think now's the time to start

16:11

taking some risks, particularly with jazz club people.

16:15

Yeah. Like, come on.

16:18

What? What are we waiting for? I can't wait for your Kickstarter to come out and,

16:25

you know, to see some traction because I think the time is now.

16:28

The time is right for this sort of thing, in my opinion.

16:31

I hope so. Yeah. I want you hit all the the hit, all the things that I look for

16:37

in a creative project, something that is, you know, mentally stimulating.

16:42

It hits the zeitgeist. You know, there's the, you know, the things that piss me off.

16:46

I'm like, Yeah, I like the algorithm Jasco

16:50

And the fact that, you know, he can do parkour.

16:53

I don't know what else to say, but. It's

16:58

but it's. Not enough comedy that's commissioned.

17:01

I feel like

17:04

it's a flip through Netflix. I don't see much in the way of comedy.

17:09

Yeah. Let me ask you this.

17:11

Like, because I'm a big fan of BBC,

17:15

I, I really do think when you compare it to North American television,

17:21

there's so much more under the surface of BBC shows.

17:27

I'm wondering, do they not have an animation thing?

17:30

Could you like is is that not a thing you could do?

17:32

Because I mean, we have CBC here in Canada, which is a little you know, I don't know, it's not as

17:38

interesting, we'll say, as a BBC.

17:42

If BBC don't commission a lot, that

17:45

in terms of animation named adults, they do commission

17:50

stuff for children.

17:53

and I think I think they're missing out.

17:55

And they also,

17:59

so yeah, there was,

18:03

I was going to say there was something about my brains, just content.

18:08

So I get to be the BBC commissions for children's stuff,

18:10

but not necessarily for adults and certainly not well,

18:13

they do commission for adult stuff, but it's not adult animation.

18:16

And I think that that's a huge misstep.

18:18

Like, well, I can imagine why they wouldn't do that.

18:22

I think it's because it's expensive. I think

18:27

animation is I mean, when

18:30

you compare to these huge Netflix budgets and things, it's not a huge amount.

18:35

But yeah, and an episode of The Simpsons costs half a million.

18:39

So if you,

18:42

if you're wanting to Yeah, get something made, it's, it's not cheap.

18:47

Does it cost it now an episode of Simpsons that I mean

18:51

I don't know where that half a million would go to

18:53

because a lot of their assets are digitized now and it's.

18:57

They've still got to animate it which takes ages.

19:00

Yeah. And and the writing process.

19:02

Yeah the writing process I think would and the writers don't get paid enough,

19:06

which is always a problem.

19:09

Yes. Yeah. It's all since they're the backbone.

19:13

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

19:17

So I guess you know what, what's next as you ramp up for this

19:23

for this Kickstarter, Like what have you got in front of you that you've got to get done?

19:27

Or let me ask you this question. What's what scares you about It scares.

19:31

The first thing is I'm scared that I'm not going to get the the number,

19:34

the object on my face. I put all this effort in and then nothing will happen.

19:39

That's the that's the kind of fear that's all the other fears will stem from.

19:44

Yeah.

19:47

Do you have a number? Do you want to talk about the number?

19:49

So we're aiming at £60,000.

19:52

Okay. Which is is the minimum.

19:56

And all the Kickstarter gurus say you should go a lot lower than and then you.

20:01

But I, I realize that if we don't make we, that's the minimum

20:05

we can make something on. Yeah. And so if we had half the money what would we do.

20:10

Yeah we've just upset people and yeah.

20:13

You wouldn't, you wouldn't get it to where I get to see jazz cow and I need jazz cow.

20:21

I this is not a paid placement whatsoever.

20:23

I'm just really into it. I like I get it and I want it.

20:28

And I just, you know,

20:30

I just want to give you my money right now.

20:32

That's great. If you know any rich people or

20:36

or lots of not rich people, but lots of them.

20:39

Lots. Of you know what I mean?

20:41

Do we know 60,000 people that would give a pound?

20:44

Sure. Like, is this a is this a thing

20:47

that the world that we live in, if the if it's right,

20:51

you know, people will get behind it and be like, holy shit.

20:54

Like, I hope that people see what I see. I haven't even seen the stuff yet.

20:57

I'm just I'm into this story. I'm into the the possibility of what jazz could be.

21:03

And I'm going to be ecstatic either way, because I,

21:06

you know, it doesn't even matter to me.

21:09

Does he have a beret? I don't know. Does he smoke? Cigarets?

21:11

Probably not that that's not very PC, but maybe he does.

21:14

I don't know. Is it a pipe? Does he like cappuccinos? Like,

21:18

I. Just want all this stuff I need to know

21:20

and all these other characters that exist in this world that you're cleaning.

21:24

I want to know and I want to I want to, you know, root for the good guy.

21:28

I want to, you know, stick it to the bad guy.

21:32

I want to see bad guys maybe change over time, like I want all of it.

21:37

So I yeah.

21:41

So okay, so that that scares you. But is there.

21:46

I, I've got a spreadsheet

21:48

of all the things I plan to do in order to

21:51

promote it, get enough numbers behind it.

21:55

Yeah, I'm, I'm constantly behind my spreadsheet and

22:00

I, I guess

22:02

I'm scared that I won't hit enough things in order to.

22:07

It all comes back to the the fear of not hitting the number.

22:10

But yeah. Yeah I'm I'm one of the things I'm learning is how bad

22:18

I am at chasing people and.

22:21

Chasing people. Yeah. So you, you what?

22:24

You've got lots of people with you. You're doing like people,

22:28

you're basically relying on favors and so you've got money there.

22:32

And so it's hard.

22:34

It's easier when you're paying someone.

22:36

You do this, you do this. But when when it's lots of favors, you've got to be chasing people to do things.

22:44

And they're usually keen, but they usually busy with lots of stuff.

22:46

So I realize I'm not very good at that.

22:50

So it's been a learning curve.

22:53

that's good. Well, I mean, that's good though, right?

22:55

Because you got to learn to get there.

22:58

You got to have the stories to tell when you get to the other side

23:01

and you know, every hero's journey,

23:04

you've got to go through the crap to get to the good stuff.

23:08

Yeah, you've got to learn. You got to. It's a journey in return.

23:11

You've got to come back changed and share it with the world.

23:15

Well, it feels like that with them. 2003 was a really bad year for business for us.

23:20

So it was, it was the worst for many, many years. And

23:25

so it feels like that's the dip. And then this is going to be going up from the death hopefully to the. Yes.

23:32

So what do you what do you do on the day to day?

23:35

So do animations usually for companies.

23:40

So we recently did something for an engineering company,

23:43

which was their kind of corporate responsibility

23:46

idea.

23:48

do all sorts of different, different things

23:51

for businesses, local charities, government, that kind of thing.

23:55

What's your, what's your toolset for animation.

23:58

As in. Like what's the latest and greatest for like I'm,

24:03

I'm guessing we're not doing, you know, paper sell animation anymore.

24:06

I wish that would be so good if we were.

24:10

Yeah. So

24:13

most of the I saw mix so his program called AfterEffects,

24:18

which is pretty well known the I do a lot of stuff in

24:24

his program called Twin Boom Harmony which is a Canadian company actually.

24:27

Tune Boom. Tin Boom Harmony. Nice. Okay

24:31

Go and. Yeah it's it's great they spell color correctly

24:36

which is the only software company

24:39

that I come across that does.

24:42

Yes. That's how we do it. That's how we roll in Canada.

24:45

All the use. Yes.

24:49

If you could, to correct the spelling of color, it should be cul0oculer or something.

24:58

Not the way the Americans do. Yeah. It's weird. Yeah. So.

25:03

Well. Bless their weird little hearts.

25:08

So they're the, the the main ones,

25:10

but we all end up using all sorts of little things here.

25:14

And there is a lot of Photoshop.

25:18

really? Yeah.

25:20

Very cool. What is your

25:25

the one thing that you haven't done yet that you want to do

25:28

and it doesn't have to be, you know, animation or business related.

25:31

I'm just, I'm curious about. John One thing in the world that I haven't done.

25:38

Yeah. Like this you're just like, man, I really want to do this.

25:42

Maybe it's playing Carnegie Hall with your trumpet. I don't know.

25:45

That would be embarrassing.

25:48

Yeah, but wouldn't it be something?

25:51

It would be a thing that you did. I could dine out on. It's life.

25:55

How about the worst person ever to bake a

26:01

Yeah. Take a deep breath and lower your expectations.

26:08

So that's a good question.

26:12

So. So it probably would be

26:23

having jazz series being properly funded.

26:26

I'm working on that.

26:29

which feels like going back to the same

26:32

same thing. Feels like I'm very unrounded when I say that.

26:36

Well, that's okay. I, I think that there's something else in there somewhere and maybe,

26:40

maybe we'll find it. Or maybe I'll get a call being like, Darling, we've got to redo this episode.

26:46

So I've got the answer, but let's, let's, let's go this way.

26:50

Let's zig a little. So imagine

26:53

you're are you are you in London proper?

26:57

So in so I'm in South

27:00

London Zone three so probably doesn't mean a lot.

27:04

It's not central, but it's not.

27:06

It's kind of in the middle. Okay.

27:10

So I mean, Old City,

27:13

obviously a lot of history, a lot of cool shops.

27:16

And are you do you like to drink? Are you a tea drinker? Are you coffee drinker?

27:20

Are you a beer drinker? Like give me the give me the context here.

27:25

So I occasionally drink.

27:28

So when it comes to coffee, I drink coffee when I have meetings usually.

27:34

And then when I don't have meetings, I don't drink coffee.

27:37

And it's yeah, we have a lot of meetings in coffee shops.

27:42

And so

27:44

I drink tea occasionally, but I'm not like,

27:49

yeah, I'm not massively into tea.

27:51

Okay,

27:53

I do drink beer,

27:56

but not,

27:59

not that often. And not that much.

28:01

Okay.

28:03

I think I don't know anything about Canadian beer.

28:06

I was just. But I know the British.

28:08

British a lot better than American beer.

28:11

Canadian beer does, too. Like it.

28:13

We have a lot of microbreweries now.

28:16

There's a lot of really, you know, dark beer,

28:19

although people have gone on to a bit of a hops kick lately or it's like

28:23

seems like all the beers are super hoppy, but I like really dark, dank.

28:27

It's almost sticky, you know, Like I love Guinness, for example.

28:31

That's my bar. And anything from Guinness lighter down to,

28:36

I don't know, a red ale maybe.

28:39

But anyway, the reason why I bring that up, I ask that it's like,

28:42

you know, I'm going to I'm going to use that for the sake of argument

28:46

because, you know, having a pint is ubiquitous with, you know, London culture.

28:51

I think. So here's John. And he's going down the street and he's on his way to his favorite pub

28:57

and John is sitting there thinking to himself, Man,

29:00

I really wish the world knew this one thing.

29:05

What is this thing, John, that you wish

29:07

the world knew so.

29:20

What is the thing that I wish the world knew?

29:23

Yeah. It's like always tickling the side of your brain being like, they mean.

29:27

It's a frustration. Just. I cannot even believe that people don't love shawarma.

29:33

I don't know. Like,

29:41

I probably I'm probably going to sound

29:44

like a complete weirdo, but I don't mind sending like a waiter because I am.

29:47

Anyway. Lean into it.

29:50

But I probably go public and say something religious.

29:54

So I would say,

29:58

so it's

30:01

how to, how to not sound too technical when I say this,

30:05

but it's

30:07

the God exists

30:10

in a loving relationship with himself.

30:13

Okay, So it's the Trinitarian idea of God,

30:16

but often that's just seen as like a, a concept or whatever.

30:21

But I think that love is actually at the heart of everything in the universe

30:25

and that God exists in that loving unity.

30:28

So that's lovely.

30:31

So that's a slightly more leftfield thing than you probably expecting.

30:35

I love it. I think that love, you know, as we say, love makes the world go round.

30:40

Certainly love is, I think, omnipresent in the universe.

30:44

And it is that one thing that allows us to take the next step forward.

30:48

And I don't think you ever run out of it.

30:52

You know, it seems to be like an infinite resource.

30:56

Yes. I think it's lovely. I think it's really nice.

30:59

I love that. That's really cool.

31:03

Are you a well-read person, John?

31:07

And by well-read, I mean, do you have books on the shelf that you go to?

31:12

it's happening.

31:14

Yes, I, I knew it.

31:18

I knew it. These are.

31:22

My people. I love that.

31:25

Yeah, I so I do love reading.

31:29

I acquire books more easily than I read them.

31:34

as we. As we all do. As someone.

31:38

Yeah. What's what's what is what's what is a book that has made a

31:43

mark. So.

31:49

So 100 Years of Solitude

31:53

can because it's,

31:57

it's just so creative and it's

32:02

absolutely bonkers.

32:05

Can't wait for the Netflix adaptation.

32:08

Is it coming out for the Yeah.

32:10

Supposed to be coming out in 2023. Come on Netflix get on. It.

32:18

Check your calendar.

32:21

Yeah so that because it's really creative.

32:25

Yeah I probably throw in Brothers Karamazov as well

32:30

which because it's just

32:33

got so many deep and rich ideas.

32:38

but yeah,

32:40

they're the two that come to mind. Quite different novels.

32:43

And then I actually read more nonfiction than novels, partly

32:47

because I read something and then I don't read for a few days.

32:53

And if I'm reading a novel, then I, I would lose where I am.

32:56

And then. Right?

32:59

That's awesome. What sort of nonfiction stuff do you read? Like what?

33:02

What keeps your interest there?

33:05

Just looking at the bookshelf.

33:08

It's historical, it's history type things.

33:13

ideas, stuff. This idea related.

33:16

Yeah, very cool.

33:20

that's really neat. If you,

33:25

I'm okay. And this is a bit of a non sequitur, but I can tie it in somehow.

33:30

The Are you Doctor Who fan?

33:35

Not a fan.

33:38

I yeah, I've occasionally watched it.

33:42

I've not actually watched it. The new, the new stuff at all.

33:45

Like, not like that. Not the David Tennant stuff, the like.

33:48

I don't know what the new stuff is. Yeah. The newest stuff I have not seen but Gotcha.

33:53

Yeah. And the stuff I have seen, I've not seen kind of consistently

33:57

in any kind of order, so I'm not massively into it.

34:01

But what is your go to

34:04

television? I mean, clearly maybe it's not BBC stuff, it's probably Netflix stuff, but what's,

34:09

what's on your binge list?

34:15

so there was a recent series.

34:18

I mean it's not, I guess it's not go to.

34:20

But the thing that jumps to mind is the thing that we watch called.

34:23

Kaleidoscope Okay. because it was a heist that was all

34:28

in, you could watch in different order and that was kind of fun.

34:31

That's cool.

34:35

there are,

34:39

I was rewatching Only Fools and Horses, which is a Do you know any fools and horses? No.

34:45

you're missing. It's a British sitcom from the eighties.

34:50

Okay, maybe seventies, eighties.

34:53

And it's about two brothers

34:56

who are selling basically to sell stolen goods

35:01

or or goods of.

35:04

You're not sure where it came from.

35:06

And they're just trying to get by.

35:09

And it's it's just really well written. So

35:13

yeah, I've been watching that on my iPad in bed sometimes recently.

35:17

Right on. that's cool.

35:20

Yeah, it's really what it's a good show with with worth trying to find.

35:23

All right. I will look for that. They'll put that on the list.

35:26

I was like to ask these questions to get sort of the flavor of of you.

35:30

We can tell a lot from, you know, the stuff that you consume.

35:33

And then I like this idea of,

35:36

you know, some historical reference and, you know, the the fun and the,

35:44

I don't know, the energy and the passion behind some of the writing of the shows

35:47

that you talk about, you know, And I wonder how that gets synthesized

35:50

out into what will become jasco.

35:54

And I keep coming back to jazz gut check the show notes for the links to jazz.

35:58

How so?

36:02

Clearly, you've had an interesting life so far.

36:05

You've done some cool stuff. You get to work in animation as your day job, which is.

36:11

And I also know that it can be challenging

36:13

when you're working in something that you love as a job because there

36:17

there's a lot to do and you know, you've got to do this.

36:20

So how do you keep the joy?

36:27

I don't always

36:30

well, I'm there when I'm, when there's a project that just isn't finishing or

36:34

that's I remember doing a project,

36:37

an animation for a call center.

36:40

It was that award ceremony.

36:42

I did not keep my joy through that.

36:44

I thought, Why don't they just divide up the money spent on this and give them each

36:50

give that to the staff rather than who's the fastest to pick up the phone?

36:54

And it just it just is so soul destroying.

36:58

So didn't keep my joy through that. But I think

37:03

it's one of the things I love is that I do stuff for different companies

37:08

so that it's not always the same kind of client or the same industry.

37:12

Yeah.

37:15

I've always got my own projects

37:17

going on in the background.

37:21

The next thing is always the most exciting thing.

37:23

Usually isn't that.

37:25

That's that is the way.

37:27

Is there something after jasco in the, in the,

37:31

in the books like what, what is your, what is your slate look like.

37:35

So I am kind of full steam

37:37

ahead with Jasco and haven't really got enough headspace for other stuff.

37:41

Although I like to hear that. I will tell. You.

37:45

Kids comic the I was I've plotted it all.

37:49

I've even worked out all the panels

37:52

and I haven't got time now to do that,

37:56

but I'm going to finish that at some point because I've done the hard work.

38:02

And for the payoff. And that's a treasure hunting.

38:06

A treasure hunting?

38:09

Yeah. Comic for kids. So that that would be fun.

38:12

Well, is there any interactive in real life aspect to it

38:16

or is it all on the page?

38:19

I saw stolen page. You cool.

38:23

So some one of the parts I love about the show

38:27

besides all of it is I like the advice that I get from people like you.

38:33

For people that are about to do stuff or are sort of on the verge,

38:39

I oftentimes I'll I'll I don't know if you ever watched Wiley Coyote

38:43

I would assume you so you know that time when Wiley Coyote steps off the cliff

38:47

and all this all is right in Wiley's world until he looks down and

38:53

you know, then there's the sign that shows up.

38:56

So what advice would you give to, well, call them entrepreneur.

39:00

We'll call them rebels in waiting. Then these entrepreneurs or their artists or there's

39:04

somebody about to take their next big step.

39:07

And it could even be that they're established,

39:09

but they're going to try something new. What would be the advice you'd give them?

39:18

I think one of the things that's always worth doing,

39:23

I mean, everyone's always got friends or

39:27

people they know.

39:29

I would try to get advice from as many of those people

39:32

as possible,

39:37

finding people to do it with,

39:42

doing things completely on your own is tiring and it's hard to keep going.

39:47

But when you've got others, others around you, that makes easier.

39:56

but I feel like I'm Wiley Coyote.

39:58

I'm just bought my acne.

40:01

And things. Explosives to do this thing, and I don't even know if it's going to work.

40:06

And you've lost the fuze. Yeah.

40:09

You got your rocket skates on? Yeah. So I've gone there with the rookies.

40:12

It's lit the fuze. And so I'm not sure I don't know what advice I can give is I'm

40:19

I'm not yet moving.

40:21

Yeah but you know what? You're in motion.

40:23

You're there. You're headed towards it, right?

40:26

You have a thing. Yes. And I am.

40:29

Please treat regardless how it turns out.

40:32

I'm excited for you. And I'm excited for the adventure you're going to have

40:38

this. Yeah, it's exciting.

40:41

Yeah. Yeah.

40:44

He says, convincing himself.

40:48

Yeah. John, this has been time well spent.

40:51

Thank you so much for joining me. That's a pleasure.

40:55

Thank you so much for the opportunity.

40:57

I've been your host, Michael Dargie and this has been The RebelRebel

41:00

Podcast as podcast for creative rebels and entrepreneurs all over the world.

41:03

And hey, if you're a rebel or you know, a rebel, why don't you head on over

41:07

to TheRebelRebelPodcast.com and fill out our guest request form?

41:11

We'll get back to you within 24 hours and maybe we can share your story

41:14

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