0:04

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0:07

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Are you just talking about yourself or are you connecting with your customers on a more meaningful level?

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0:26

The Rebel Rebel is a show dedicated to creative rebels and entrepreneurs

0:29

all over the world. It's for those people who think audaciously

0:32

and act courageously in service of making the world a better and more interesting place.

0:35

Rolls up to one distinct mission that I'm on, which is to help other people

0:40

make what matters to their careers, to their companies and their communities.

0:44

We should care more about resonance to build our causes than reach.

0:48

And I think the internet mostly drags us in the wrong direction.

0:52

Likewise, storytelling can be a way of operating.

0:54

It's not something you acquire. You know that there's a very big difference

0:57

between learning story and being a storyteller.

1:00

On this episode, meet Jay, a master storyteller

1:03

and advocate for meaningful content over vanity metrics.

1:06

Discover how Jay champions the art of resonance in a world obsessed with reach.

1:10

Please welcome Jay Acunzo to the Rebel Rebel podcast.

1:14

All right. Welcome to the Rebel Rebel. I'm your host, Michael Dargie, and somewhere across the universe is Jay Acunzo. Jay.

1:21

How the hell are you? I'm doing well. It's April 4th and we're recording this,

1:25

and it's like sleeting and snowing outside here in the Boston area.

1:28

So I'm, I'm emotionally it it's a it's been a roller coaster of a morning.

1:34

So thanks for having me on the show. This this is sure to brighten my day. Oh good. Yeah.

1:39

Because I woke up this morning. It was plus 17 Celsius yesterday.

1:44

and it is now minus ten today.

1:47

also sleeting and snowing and, Yeah.

1:51

So I feel you. Yeah. Well, as, radio labs.

1:53

Robert Krulwich famously said when he retired from the show

1:57

that this medium is like sitting around a warm fire with friends.

2:01

There we go. We it so true.

2:04

well, so welcome from Boston. And,

2:08

Jay, if you could catch us up on what's happening in Jay's world today.

2:12

Yeah. And we'll do some time travel. Yeah.

2:14

So my, my world splits, in a few different ways,

2:19

which I can talk about, but it rolls up to one distinct mission

2:22

that I'm on, which is to help other people make what matters to their careers, to their companies, in their communities.

2:28

And so, an assertion I like to make is that we as content creators,

2:33

as business builders, as communicators and as rebels,

2:38

we should care more about resonance to build our causes than reach.

2:41

And I think the internet mostly drags us in the wrong direction.

2:44

It drags us towards reach, it drags us towards empty followers and vanity metrics.

2:47

It drags us towards sameness. And we're seeing that show up across social media in rapid form.

2:53

So I am trying to provide a counterweight in all of my work, all of my projects,

2:57

so that we get back to caring about resonance,

3:00

because that's what the work is for, not not reach.

3:03

The reach part gets easier, or you never have to think about it.

3:05

If you can resonate deeply with the right people.

3:07

Oh man, I got chills. like legit.

3:12

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. That's awesome.

3:14

I love that resonance over reach, because I do think

3:18

that we spend way too much time worrying about,

3:21

you know, how many followers we have or, you know, and that sort of thing.

3:25

Vanity metrics. Wow.

3:27

if we go to. Yeah, let me just sort of flash over to your website for a second.

3:32

just because I everybody wants to know everybody, everybody.

3:36

Jack hanzo.com with, Asterix.

3:40

What's with that? Asterix. Oh, yeah. So the,

3:44

I'm very lucky to have a wonderful website.

3:47

I worked with, a firm called, Free

3:50

the Robot Creative, and, many years ago.

3:54

I don't think they're around anymore, but the, the logo that we jointly created

3:58

was this custom typography with my name and then an asterisk.

4:03

And what I love about the asterisk is,

4:05

you know, as a storyteller, you learn how to speak with more attention.

4:09

I always just thought I appreciated drama or was more dramatic than other people.

4:12

Like growing up. or I saw the drama and things in my life, and I could tell a story about that.

4:17

Like, that's a useful skill as you imbue meaning into things that are ordinary.

4:21

As a storyteller, you don't have to experience anything crazy or exceptional or extraordinary.

4:26

And so when you learn about storytelling, there's there's a concept

4:30

called the open loop, which is just planting a question on someone's mind.

4:34

And we are hardwired to then want the closure of that loop.

4:36

And there's really, really big examples like Game of Thrones, who will sit on the Iron Throne?

4:41

It took ten years of the show for them to answer that question.

4:44

Right. And then the key here is you got to answer it in satisfactory fashion.

4:48

But that's a podcast for another another industry niche.

4:52

so that's like a really big hits you over the head, like, who will sit on the throne.

4:56

Right. that's why we're hardwired to love, you know, tournaments.

4:59

Right? Right now it's the end of the March Madness tournaments for men's and women's college basketball here in the United States.

5:05

And it's this giant open loop. When you see the bracket and you see all the blank spaces

5:10

heading towards a championship, we're hard wired to want closure in everything.

5:14

And so the open loop as a storyteller is really, really useful.

5:18

And there there's all these different types of open loops.

5:21

I mentioned a couple really big ones just there.

5:23

I always thought that the tiniest one was the word, but.

5:26

Right. So as a good storyteller, you know, this happened,

5:29

then this happened, then this happened, but then that happened.

5:32

Yeah. What will happen next? This is how you grip people.

5:36

It's how you get the time you need to earn their trust

5:38

and to resonate right, to build a relationship.

5:41

But it turns out there's actually an even tinier open loop, which is the asterisk.

5:45

And there's so much and it's like a whole universe of possibility

5:49

and storytelling and relationships and resonance and creativity

5:56

that unfolds with that asterisk, both the thing itself as a as a device, but

6:00

also just a reminder to myself constantly that that's the business that I'm in.

6:05

And, you know, and so I actually if you go to the very bottom of my site,

6:09

I answer that question in an essay.

6:11

What's with the asterisk? Because I think people do take it as, oh, it's an asterisk.

6:15

I'm hard wired to like, want to find out more?

6:18

Right? And that's the point. Like the reach resonance thing.

6:21

There's a corollary to that, which is like a lot of people are obsessed with grabbing attention

6:25

when the golden rule of storytelling is, is to hold, it is to get them to the end.

6:29

Right. And you start with, imagine I told you this story,

6:35

which is like the opening line of the I just love this.

6:40

Yeah, yeah, well, it's just like a it's a way John Cleese of Monty

6:44

Python fame has said about creativity,

6:46

it's not a skill or talent, it's a way of operating.

6:49

Right? Likewise, storytelling can be a way of operating.

6:52

It's not something you acquire. You know that there's a very big difference between learning story and being a storyteller,

6:58

like learning stories to learn the techniques, the checklist

7:02

you move through. That's the process. That's that's helpful.

7:06

But your process can also emerge from your practice

7:09

when you're just routinely shipping and your practice because it involves you

7:14

necessary brings with it your posture, like how you see yourself in the world.

7:17

So those three things represent mastery. It's not just the process that we think we need.

7:22

It's also the practice of routinely putting your butt in the chair

7:24

and doing the work on deadline, no matter how you feel.

7:28

And then it's the posture you bring with you, kind of this messy

7:31

bag of humanity that you bring to everything you do.

7:34

And some people willingly dip into that bag

7:36

and some people want to ignore it or actively remove it.

7:39

So to be a storyteller is to see everything, possibly as a story, right?

7:43

And you press that through whatever premise you might be exploring.

7:46

Like, I like to explore that premise of resonance overreach.

7:50

And, you know, an author has a premise for the book, a podcaster has a premise for the show.

7:55

I think we need a premise for our overall platform,

7:58

some kind of defensible assertion you're making of

8:00

what should be, despite what currently is.

8:03

And then if that's what you're thinking about. For me, residents overreach.

8:06

Then everywhere I go, I'm thinking, oh, is that a thing?

8:08

Maybe that's a thing, right? It's kind of like the comedian finding story threads and going, is this anything?

8:13

Well, I got to go put it on stages and work it out. Right.

8:15

But let me just save that to my notebook for now.

8:17

So it's very much a way of seeing the world

8:20

to be a storyteller and a way of practicing your craft,

8:23

not just acquiring like a checklist of here's the

8:27

the hero's journey or here's what an open loop is like.

8:30

Useful, but incrementally so not foundation foreign.

8:35

Wow. Okay. So thank you for that. And let me.

8:38

So how did let me do some time travel here for sure.

8:41

Because you did mention that as a young man you were wired for drama.

8:48

Yeah. And I'm curious what that looks like.

8:51

Early days of Jay Acunzo

8:56

Give me the shape of that and how you got to here.

8:59

Yeah. I mean, I was always performing, writing, creating little colored,

9:04

colored, you know, with my markers as a kid, little books based on my toys.

9:08

Like, I was always, performing.

9:11

Mostly because I think I just wanted to be the center of attention, but also because, you know,

9:15

when you're young and someone says, hey, you're good at this.

9:17

For me writing, you're you're you like, feeling good, you like being complimented.

9:22

And I think then you you seek it out more like, this is why good role

9:25

models, good teachers, good parents, good support systems matter so much.

9:28

It's like so much of creativity is the amount you've practiced

9:33

and putting in those reps and finding yourself not just kind of doing it in rote fashion.

9:38

That takes a lot of practice. And people who have more practice generally,

9:43

or at least for me, I'll personalize. Does it happen for me?

9:46

Because people at a young age were like, hey, you're pretty good at this writing stuff.

9:50

So that just caused me to seek it out more.

9:52

You know, even though back then I, you know, was still figuring it out.

9:55

So I was always making stuff and just hard wired to tinker

9:58

and I think when I turned 30, there's this famous film series at ESPN,

10:04

where I briefly had an internship in PR

10:06

and the film series is 30 for 30.

10:09

They made 30 films on their 30th anniversary.

10:12

I what I realized is when I turned 30,

10:15

I had created 30 side projects by 30 years old.

10:20

So I had 3530. And they weren't day jobs.

10:23

They weren't, you know, I'd worked in marketing at companies like Google and HubSpot and a tiny startup and a VC,

10:29

and those were great. But the story of my career is really on the side.

10:32

It's really trying to see, oh, there's something

10:36

light and subtle but full of tension about this moment I'm observing.

10:41

And I could turn that into a story by like, overdramatic sizing

10:44

that that tension, really. You know, I remember like being in college,

10:48

taking creative nonfiction as a class

10:51

and being assigned to write about something ordinary.

10:53

And I picked a local diner, and I went there and I sat there in the morning

10:57

and I just like with my notebook, was watching things unfold.

11:00

And I struggled for a bit. And then I realized, well, everybody here is kind of

11:04

going through something, right? The man with the brown bomber jacket on the stool, trying to pay for his meal

11:12

is grumbling about the news, and then the waitress shuffles over

11:16

and the man the man tries to guess his amount that he owes,

11:20

and the woman says to him, like, you're off by $0.05.

11:24

And he curses and pays her and shuffles out the door like, I don't know what that is.

11:29

I just know that that that is something or could be right.

11:33

And the difference is it's not just clubbing you over the head, it's not happening to you.

11:38

And then you convey the transcript. Yeah. It's that there's a there's something there.

11:41

And then you, you experience it and then turn it into stories.

11:44

Right? Right. And so it helps if you see the drama, see the tension, see the questions

11:48

and curiosity even subtly, everywhere you go.

11:53

I love that first. Holy shit.

11:57

I mean, it's a hyperbolic metric or like that's interesting, right?

12:01

To sort of, you know, push those boundaries to see where they break,

12:05

you know, where where the truth stops,

12:08

you know, maybe is, is an interesting way to look at that.

12:11

well, that's why I loved creative nonfiction. Honestly. It's like you're encouraged to do to tell true stories,

12:18

but to include emotional stakes according to your lens on it.

12:21

It's subjective.

12:24

it's not this old and I think, archaic notion.

12:28

I just talked to a friend of mine who's a

12:30

who's been a journalist and a writer for many years, has worked

12:32

for The Atlantic and has written books and stuff. And and we were catching up about his latest book,

12:36

and he was saying, yeah, the difference between writing this book of his and

12:39

being a reporter was there was this notion in journalism that you are a vessel

12:44

for the objective truth, which is a really I.

12:48

And he said this, not me, an outmoded way of thinking about journalists,

12:52

because they're encouraged to act more like kind of fact

12:56

gathering robots than fully formed humans.

12:59

And it sort of also ignores the fact that inevitably,

13:02

some part of the work will be influenced by the fact that you wrote it

13:07

instead of me. And so taking that out of journalism now, you think about what's happening online,

13:12

and you think about what's happening with most of the world of content creators,

13:16

marketers, business builders, the world I occupy.

13:20

I'm not so worried about bots replacing humans.

13:23

I'm much more worried about all these humans who are acting like bots. Why?

13:27

Because they're just doing these rote things,

13:29

or they're doing things that others tell them work, or that algorithms incentivize them to do.

13:34

And the result is you.

13:36

You ignore the fact that inevitably, inevitably,

13:40

without you thinking about it, you will influence this work somehow.

13:44

And I think that if you like to evolve, you'd like to compete

13:47

on the impact of your ideas, not just like the volume of your content.

13:51

You should be proactive instead of just letting it happen,

13:54

you should carefully consider how am I influencing this work?

13:58

What is my perspective on this?

14:00

How do I work and rework my articulation of that perspective?

14:04

Again, like a comedian might on small stages, or an author might,

14:08

you know, publishing online to test material more than distribute

14:12

what they know, then I can use that perspective

14:16

to find better ideas.

14:19

My own unique spin on something, stories that just don't look like

14:23

anything that newsworthy in my life, but they're somehow noteworthy to me now.

14:28

Like you give yourself this lens through which you see the world when you have

14:32

what I call the premise behind your work, and it allows your humanity

14:36

to come out a little bit more proactively instead of just leaving it to chance.

14:39

And that's what separates you from all the bot driven boys out there.

14:43

Love that I and I love the phrase raising the stakes to, yeah,

14:48

we we see that, so loose moves theaters and Improvizational Theater in Calgary.

14:53

It's one of the founding places of improv around the world.

14:57

Great name, great name, loose moose.

14:59

Loose movie theater also looseness.

15:03

but we talk about raising the stakes all the time on stage because we are we get so worried about taking chances

15:09

and, you know, being altered when on stage.

15:13

But as soon as you raise those stakes and you become altered, that's

15:16

when things get interesting. Yeah, I love that.

15:18

And I've been a professional speaker three years in a row.

15:22

In fact, that was my main source of income.

15:24

It's still something I do quite a bit virtually and in person.

15:27

But but keynote speaking is just a craft.

15:30

I've fallen in love with. That's why you've heard me mention comedians so many times already.

15:35

Because I've learned so much from those people. Oh yeah, how they approach the craft, but I do.

15:39

I love that translate work of like, how do you take yourself

15:43

as a person and basically become a feature,

15:48

piece you control almost

15:50

as you like, externalize yourself onto the stage.

15:52

Right. And like it's, it's an amped up version or a contextualized version of you.

15:57

It is still you, but it's you trying to deliver

15:59

the best version of you for that context, that content you're delivering,

16:03

that moment in time, that specific stage or room, that medium overall,

16:07

that is speaking versus here on this podcast.

16:11

Right. You know, I have I have some signature bits in my speech

16:14

that I know if I delivered them exactly as I do on a stage here today.

16:19

Yeah, that it wouldn't work.

16:21

and you see, again, you see this from comedians who appear on late night shows.

16:24

They recount some of their bits from the special,

16:27

but they modulate their voice.

16:29

They shorten the delivery. They change up how they seek the laugh.

16:33

They almost chuckle to themselves to give the room permission to laugh to,

16:37

because the room, while they're ready to laugh, they're not so heightened

16:42

as to seek out laughter. Like at a comedy show, right?

16:44

Right where, like, everything seems funnier because of where you're at.

16:47

So there's all these, like, subtleties about this work we do

16:51

that you can just characterize as as the craft, right?

16:54

It's like all these things that you're sort of like only going to learn through practice.

16:59

you're not going to learn through some guru giving you, like, a checklist.

17:02

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

17:04

Putting anything up on stage is a great way to to test it.

17:09

There is no greater way to vet an idea

17:12

or a skill or a bit or a story than like I am putting it out.

17:16

Like Seinfeld said this, he gets five minutes every act to be

17:19

every show, to just be Seinfeld, because people have challenged him.

17:22

Like, it's not so democratized when you're Jerry Seinfeld, they love you.

17:26

And he goes, yeah, but after a few minutes, they have to love the material.

17:30

Yeah, they they can't just. I can't just be Seinfeld. I have to deliver.

17:34

Yeah. And, you know, that's a little bit different online.

17:37

You see a lot of people who just like get a bunch of following and, you know, get

17:41

they play to the algorithm or people just love them because of who they are.

17:44

But in that room, in the auditorium, the theater, in the conference room,

17:48

when you're when you're standing up to give a presentation, you have to deliver the goods.

17:53

There is no other place for you to go than to delight the audience.

17:56

Somehow. Yeah, I love that.

18:00

talk to me about Creator Kitchen because they I feel that this is,

18:05

it's a it's adjacent, but in alignment.

18:09

Yeah. Right. So I earn a living three ways.

18:12

Speaking is actually receded to number three

18:14

because I have two little kids at home, and I desperately

18:17

don't want to leave them. But for a while, that was pretty prevalent in my career.

18:21

And then the other two ways are I consult, creators, entrepreneurs, small business

18:26

owners, people that have been creating content online for a time,

18:31

but they're struggling to stand out and they're they're maybe

18:35

feeling pulled towards these grimy gimmicks we see from people.

18:39

Or they don't feel that temptation at all,

18:41

but don't know what else to do, because that's what works on the internet.

18:44

Right? But there's another path, which is, you know, the problem is not your content

18:49

or your story. The problem is you don't have strong enough IP.

18:52

You don't have a distinct premise that colors all your work

18:55

and your reputation that you become known for.

18:58

You don't use that premise to develop your website's

19:02

positioning, to develop projects, to, you know, go to market,

19:06

go on podcasts, and be able to communicate clearly what you're about.

19:10

That's the problem. So I'll work 1 to 1 with clients to help develop their

19:14

their premise, their signature stories, and their overall IP for their work.

19:19

Because I really want to equip people with substance to stand out,

19:23

not just people with empty hype that like, play to these trendy gimmicks.

19:27

and so the kitchen is an extension of that. It's a membership community.

19:31

So we have at its core, we have 68 members now

19:35

who are all fairly experienced, like ten, 15, 20 years of experience.

19:40

and they are similarly experts in their domain,

19:43

but they're looking to level up on their creative craft

19:47

when it comes to their stories, their content, how they differentiate,

19:50

how they explain themselves or inspire action from others.

19:53

And so we we go through periods that we call because it's the kitchen

19:57

and we're creative people. Everything is a kitchen pun like, sometimes to our detriment.

20:02

We have menus and menus are let's group together a master class and some resources

20:08

around different creative skills like personal storytelling, public speaking,

20:14

how do you model your ideas into a visual framework?

20:17

We're talking about doing interview skills like on a podcast.

20:20

How do you interview? Well, all these things that transfer with you everywhere you go.

20:24

It's not how to arbitrage this algorithm on LinkedIn to grow a following.

20:29

It's not that it's everywhere you go.

20:31

This skill goes with you. They're transferable.

20:34

So that's what we believe in. We believe in taking experts and helping them

20:36

become more influential voices, not by giving them these cheap tricks,

20:40

but by helping them master the creative craft in different ways.

20:44

and really, the core of it is wrestling with your ideas.

20:46

It's a lot of small group coaching, roundtables, office hours,

20:49

that kind of thing to complement any programing that we offer.

20:54

Far out what you mentioned.

20:57

there's so many things to unpack on that. And I would I would just actually direct people to your site to dive into

21:04

because I've got up on this screen here, like building a strong talk

21:07

proposal is one of these, Google Docs that I'm seeing.

21:11

And it just makes it so simple to break it down

21:15

into what's important because, you know, I,

21:19

as a writer and as a presenter and speaker

21:21

myself, I know how difficult it is to organize these thoughts.

21:24

I want to say so much, but how do I narrow that down

21:28

and make it relevant to the audience that I'm speaking to?

21:31

So I love this. Yeah, yeah, thank you for that.

21:34

And that's free right there. I could just grab it. I have it right there.

21:38

So thanks. Yeah, yeah. Some of the resources are free.

21:40

And then the bulk of the membership is really it's a paid membership.

21:44

You can subscribe every quarter or every year.

21:47

and that's where you access myself. My co-founder, Melanie,

21:51

she came out of the New York Times and time and, and places like that.

21:54

And, we do a lot of interactive wrestling with ideas

21:58

and drafts and, you know, existential crises

22:00

all the way down to, like, tiny techniques. It's a lot of catharsis, as you'd imagine,

22:04

because, like, we're all creative in some way. So there's a lot of that, but we all have in common is like,

22:09

we really care about the quality and the craft elements of this work.

22:13

we're not just trying to, like, find clever ways to, like,

22:15

take a podcast episode and make 17 tiny clips from the podcast episode and call that good marketing.

22:21

Like, that's not who these who these people are, which is great.

22:25

I love that you are fighting for that.

22:28

That you're that you're fighting for relevance like that

22:31

hits me deep in my soul.

22:34

and I think one of the reasons why I reached out, and I just like,

22:36

I really want to have you on this show because we just don't hear enough of that these days.

22:41

so I appreciate that. So, yeah, speaking is number three.

22:45

yeah. You know, the Creator kitchen is number 1 or 2.

22:49

What's the other leg of the stool?

22:51

Well, I mentioned the 1 to 1 client services.

22:53

That's really the bulk of my, my business, but that is connected.

22:56

You know, if I do 1 to 1, almost like the white glove services with individual

23:01

entrepreneurs, clients or creators, then small group coaching is the kitchen.

23:06

So those are those are connected in many ways.

23:08

they rely on similar frameworks and methodologies and all that good stuff.

23:11

but then I also have sponsorships. So I host a podcast called How Stories Happen.

23:16

Right? Which actually I'm launching at the end of April with the trailer is live,

23:20

but you can think of it as Song Exploder in music or good one in comedy.

23:24

But for our work as storytellers, where every episode we get an expert, creator,

23:30

some kind of communicator, and they bring a signature story

23:33

or a new draft, and we dissect it together piece by piece.

23:37

So we kind of trace. How did you find this story?

23:39

How did you develop it? What did we notice upon you telling it?

23:43

How might it improve? And then how are you using it everywhere you go, publicly to promote your cause

23:49

and build your audience and kind of, you know, leave your legacy, frankly. Wow.

23:53

Yeah. So that's how stories happen, which I'm really, really excited about.

23:56

It's my my second show. I hosted a show for many years called unthinkable

23:59

from like 2016 to the beginning of this year.

24:02

And it was it was time for a new chapter.

24:04

So I'm really excited about this new show.

24:06

Oh, that's so great. I'm I'm jumping in with with both feet.

24:12

talk to me about Boston. Have you been there forever?

24:15

no. I grew up in southern Connecticut,

24:17

which I if you're in the United States,

24:20

even if you're local, doesn't really have an identity.

24:23

So, like, no big deal. If you listening or watching this is like, what is Connecticut like?

24:27

Or where even is it? I get it, it's a really tiny state in between New York and Massachusetts.

24:31

So it's like I refer to it as New York at Ucits.

24:33

That's Connecticut. half my friends were Red Sox fans, half my friends, including me, Yankees fans.

24:39

I'm also a Knicks fan, so I endear myself to people because they feel bad for me.

24:42

Although lately, pretty good lately we're good.

24:45

but I got a job at Google in,

24:48

2008 after college, and that took me to Boston.

24:51

And so with the exception of two years in the middle, I've been in the Boston

24:55

area, my whole adult life, mostly working in software and tech when I was in house.

25:01

And then since transitioning out independently in 2016,

25:05

I've been doing the things you've heard me subscribe, describe so far.

25:08

I love it. And I was just going to say you don't have that quintessential Boston drawl.

25:14

no. Are you a cop

25:16

or what? Are you, a cop? You're a father.

25:18

Okay. Yeah, that's all I got. I can't do anything more.

25:21

That's it. Yeah. Nice.

25:26

so let me ask this question.

25:32

If you're walking down the street in Boston

25:35

and I don't know what your typical day looks like,

25:38

I know that you've got some some small kids.

25:40

You look after and, enjoy.

25:42

You've got some family life, but let's just say it's just Jay,

25:45

and it's the, you know, early morning and the, I don't know, the.

25:50

You're walking down the street, you're off to get a coffee.

25:53

What is the one thing that you're thinking about

25:57

as you're walking to that coffee and you're just like, oh, man, I really wish the world knew this thing.

26:01

What is that thing that you wish the world knew?

26:05

Yeah.

26:07

There's this

26:10

paradox of storytelling that sums it up really well,

26:15

which is, you know, we all want our work to be beloved,

26:17

and we all want to connect to the right people to serve our cause.

26:22

Now, that might mean I'm building an audience online

26:24

and I'm selling services or selling products, or I have sponsorships,

26:27

you know, all the things, similar things to what I do that might mean you're

26:31

trying to rally people to somehow,

26:36

spark action for a community, cause funding for your local schools, not tearing down that,

26:42

that old monument or whatever

26:45

we all have causes that require us to communicate.

26:48

And typically what we end up doing is trying to demand

26:52

that others care, demand that they act.

26:55

But really effective storytellers, and I use the word carefully,

26:58

effective storytellers, not just good storytellers, effective storytellers

27:02

understand that it's possible to inspire action.

27:05

It's possible to inspire others to care.

27:07

But you have to connect on the emotional stakes and mostly the way

27:10

we communicate, especially as things get higher stakes for some reason, is

27:14

we forget the emotional stakes needed to make others care.

27:17

We call fact, fact, fact reportrillioneport report data, data data.

27:20

Do this, do this, do this. Command command command.

27:23

So there's this paradox of storytelling, which is actually if you want to

27:25

connect deeper externally, you have to turn deeper internally.

27:29

You have to find the emotional stakes. So you should be able to tell a story about anything.

27:33

Your morning coffee routine, the craziest thing that's ever happened to you and everything in between.

27:38

And that topic or that action has no bearing on what you're talking about.

27:42

You know, I do this all the time. I'm teaching people marketing,

27:44

teaching people, storytelling, teaching people how to create content.

27:47

And I'm using stories about

27:50

raising kids, about making my coffee, about being a Knicks fan.

27:53

And the person on the receiving end would easily go,

27:56

I don't care about or experience any of those things.

27:59

And I'm like, yeah, like you don't experience,

28:02

the spider powers of Spider man either.

28:04

Yet why does he connect so much with so much influence?

28:07

Because with great power comes great responsibility, right?

28:10

Right. I loved Ted Lasso. I don't care about football.

28:14

I do love the story of someone trying to remain kind and virtuous.

28:17

As life throws hardships your way and you evolve.

28:20

Yeah. I don't read him, but Stephen King has raving fans.

28:24

Carrie is not really about Carrie.

28:26

It's about the feelings of isolation that we can all relate to.

28:28

So when you see communication designed to spur some kind of action in the world

28:33

for a business or a cause, typically it's void of emotional stakes.

28:37

And that's because the communicator themselves has failed to go deep

28:40

enough internally to find those emotional stakes as they felt it.

28:45

there's a perfect quote to sum this up.

28:47

It's from the author, Kazuo Ishiguro.

28:49

It's my favorite quote on storytelling. So you should girls written tons of novels and won the Nobel

28:53

Prize in Literature in 2017.

28:56

And he says that stories are like one person

28:59

saying to another, this is how it feels to me.

29:02

Can you understand what I'm saying? Does it also feel this way to you?

29:06

So storytellers who are effective, they communicate with clarity,

29:10

but they also connect on that emotional meaning of it all.

29:14

And there's this wonderful little phrase that I would encourage people

29:16

to remember to do this because it's like, well, how do I do this?

29:19

Do I have to become like a mindful person and have like a meditation practice?

29:22

And yeah, if that works for you, fantastic. Yeah.

29:24

Or do I have to, like, clear my schedule to, like, navel gazing

29:27

and, like, get emotional? Like, no, I'm not asking you to be vulnerable.

29:31

There's this wonderful phrase, you can kind of see versions of this

29:34

or this exact phrase among the most effective storytellers.

29:37

Often it's implied, but usually there's like this pivot point where people go, hey, so this happened.

29:43

It's a memory or a moment. And that made me realize something.

29:47

It was an idea sparked by that memory or moment.

29:49

And then they say, and that's the thing about.

29:52

Right? Like, that's the thing about this topic that you care about.

29:56

Audience. Right? This lesson or insight I have for you now.

30:00

So like a really easy example, let's take one that requires no resources,

30:04

no mastery at a crazy cosmic level

30:07

of being an amazing documentarian or filmmaker narrative storyteller.

30:11

Let's go back to the coffee example.

30:13

Like imagine. I wanted to teach you to try new things.

30:17

And that was my message. One way I could say it, and that's how most communicate is

30:22

in general, studies show that human beings are not afraid

30:25

of the thing they're facing. They're not afraid of the task itself.

30:28

They're afraid. You're afraid of the unknown.

30:31

And so I become the Nike slogan, and I go, so just do it right.

30:35

Ineffective. And even if it's valuable, everyone can say it that way.

30:39

I have no relationship with you. I'm not inspired to care or act.

30:42

Yeah, or I could say.

30:44

And I'll use those three beats arriving at that key phrase.

30:47

So this happens. So, I have an espresso

30:49

maker in my kitchen, and for years I was afraid to make espresso.

30:53

This is an actual true story. I'm Italian, which anyone watching this can tell from everything about me.

30:59

The gel and the hands and the volume. Yeah.

31:03

And my wife is not Italian, but she makes it all the time.

31:05

And I would ask her, or I would follow espresso like influencers

31:09

or I would like debate taking a course in home espresso making,

31:12

and I wouldn't do it or I'd outsource it or I'd like, agonize over the research.

31:16

Right. So sound familiar? Yeah, yeah.

31:19

but now I make it every day. Every day. And the only thing that changed was I made it once.

31:23

So let's just step out of the story.

31:25

This happened. It's just like a personal memory or a moment.

31:28

That's the next, next phase of the story, which made me realize

31:32

so, oh, wow, I really wasted a lot of time agonizing,

31:36

outsourcing, not doing it because it's not that hard to make espresso.

31:39

And by the way, when I messed up, I could either fix it myself or now

31:43

my research became focused and not wasteful.

31:45

Right. and that's the thing about, here's that next phrase.

31:49

That's the thing about trying new things.

31:52

If what we're really afraid of is not the task, but the unknown,

31:57

then we should move faster to make the unknown known.

32:01

Studies show this, too. Don't agonize over the research or doing it, or waste a bunch of time

32:06

following the experts. Outsource it or sit on your hands.

32:08

Just try the thing once and then proceed with

32:10

with clarity and confidence from there. Right?

32:13

So like I didn't, what did I talk about?

32:15

Ultimately, a giant, juicy, nothing burger of an event in my life.

32:21

Nothing happened, I made coffee.

32:24

What could be more mundane than that?

32:26

You overcame shame though.

32:28

That's the stats, the emotional stakes.

32:31

Everyone is going. Even if you don't know espresso.

32:33

Let's say that's a possibility in someone listening.

32:36

They don't even know what espresso is. It doesn't matter, right?

32:39

Like or let's say, well, Jay, you're here at a marketing conference or a creator conference.

32:43

Why are you talking about making coffee when we're all business minds, like you're

32:47

supposed to be talking about business related things or trying new things?

32:50

I thought you were teaching me that. Why are you talking about coffee? Right.

32:53

Well, that's the thing about right. Right.

32:55

So that's a it's a pivot point between being a good storyteller that can grip you

32:59

to being an effective storyteller, which can move you above it. Damn

33:05

knowledge bombs from Jay.

33:08

Holy moly. Out. Well, let's just let's go here for a second.

33:14

What's the what's the thing that you do just for Jay like what's what's Jay's guilty pleasure?

33:19

The thing that just fills your bucket.

33:24

I used to know my friend.

33:26

I used to know. Right? I have a five year old and a two year old.

33:30

they talk about loss of identity among parents of little kids.

33:33

Yeah, I don't know what they talk about. About parents of little kids

33:36

that just went through a global pandemic, but it's even worse.

33:40

I am rediscovering that, you know, I'm rediscover saying that, hey,

33:43

you know, I really like basketball, both playing and watching it.

33:48

you know, I really, really love just tinkering

33:50

on silly side projects for fun that I used to do in the mornings

33:55

and at night and on weekends all the time, claimed by trying

33:58

to sneak in an extra wink of sleep or kids.

34:02

Right. So there's not really room in my life right now for anything

34:06

that is not parenting work. And once in a while having a relationship with adults that I love.

34:11

but in calmer days.

34:13

I am a huge basketball fan. I love to cook, and I love to sort of just do a thing

34:20

that feels silly and fun, you know, design a logo for a dream project or,

34:25

my daughter, who's five, she loves the spotlight.

34:28

Can't imagine where she got that from. and, we have little, like,

34:32

a little private podcast we do together, and she'll ask me to do it.

34:35

It's super fun. We just, like, randomly pick a topic and we talk about it,

34:39

and I ask her questions and she sings, and it's wonderful.

34:42

And I've listened to a few. I've done this since she was two.

34:45

And there's something about the intimacy of audio

34:48

that we have all these videos of her, but that hits me more emotionally.

34:52

This, this audio only version of her.

34:55

so I'm really excited and I'm probably going to make it into a project

34:58

I share with my family someday. So, like, that's the kind of thing I love to do, but but in truth, the stuff

35:03

that fills my cup, I'm very, very lucky in this regard is the day to day work.

35:08

It is the 9 to 5 work that I control.

35:11

Excuse me? Control. I'm getting choked up about it.

35:15

Or just choking because I'm dried out. Because I have a toddler called.

35:18

But that's it. That's what fills my cup. Yeah, I love it. Right?

35:23

man. So, my kids are much older, and one of the things I remember

35:29

being a parent of young children is story time.

35:33

And I don't know if you do that, but that was my favorite time of day

35:36

would be like the wind down, jump into bed, grab a book like doctors use,

35:41

hop on, pop, whatever, and just, you know,

35:45

hitting Cat in the hat hard.

35:48

you know, in all the fun ways that you can do with kids.

35:52

Yeah. so that's that's.

35:55

I love those moments. Yeah. We're we're all very silly.

35:58

I mean, honestly, I said, what fills my cup for work,

36:01

what genuinely fills my cup, is just being goofy and weird and silly and creative.

36:07

with my kids, I have an older daughter and a younger son,

36:09

and the two of us together are three of us together.

36:11

You know, we play characters, we tell stories, we read books,

36:15

you know, we paint in sculpt things. And.

36:19

Yeah, they that's the best is to remember that

36:23

the point of being alive is to actually,

36:26

like, live and experience the world and see it in the moment.

36:29

Like kids are the great, at least in my life.

36:32

The great unlock for like it forces you to be mindful.

36:35

And sometimes I rebel and I grumble about that.

36:37

And I want to say, this is all butterflies and rainbows, because it's friggin impossible to raise little kids

36:42

and also then have a career you care about.

36:44

It's frigging impossible. but in other moments of my life, I'm able to see it for what it is.

36:50

Which is this complete unlock. For I am mindful.

36:53

I see the world through their eyes of like I have a sense of wonder.

36:56

And oh, by the way, if I can't get there naturally during a given day

37:00

because I'm thinking about work, then I could stare into that and go, joy,

37:04

be mindful. See the world with their eyes, and have a sense of wonder at it,

37:08

because that's going to make you a better storyteller. Oh yeah.

37:11

What's the worst, best thing that your daughter has ever made for you?

37:15

That you've had to eat? Oh that's interesting.

37:20

I'm lucky there isn't actually anything she.

37:23

So because she loves to cook with us.

37:25

Oh, so she's got a little bib and the step stool and all that stuff.

37:28

But she's. She's the sous chef. She likes to chop things up in nice and do all that stuff.

37:32

Yeah, yeah, I've been very lucky. I have not had to eat anything that she prepared for me.

37:36

But make no mistake, if she put a bunch of slop in front of me

37:38

that looked like it had lint and bugs in it,

37:40

I am eating that like it's a three star restaurant, my friend.

37:44

Yes, yes, your

37:47

outstanding. I and I do take the point that there's not a lot of time when you're raising

37:52

two kids and running a business and trying to have a life, but is there,

37:57

are there books on yourself that you try to get to,

38:00

or that, I mean, you have your own books, clearly, but.

38:03

Yeah. Yeah. what do you read?

38:06

Yeah, yeah, I've written a couple, and I aspire to do a lot more.

38:09

I, I, I mostly don't read books about work.

38:14

I really like creative nonfiction, you know, like, my favorite storyteller of all time is Anthony Bourdain.

38:18

And if anyone has followed me around the internet, they've just heard me mention him more than any other name, of people I admire.

38:24

I've also read like Mike Birbiglia is my favorite comedian autobiographical storyteller.

38:29

He has like narrative arcs to his whole act.

38:31

I love that he shares openly on his podcast

38:33

how he talks about this stuff and thinks about it and executes it.

38:37

There's a new documentary on Peacock about his approach to his next act.

38:41

I love that stuff. He had a book called The New One that I really enjoyed.

38:46

but yeah, Bourdain to me is the sort of like person

38:49

that opened my eyes to a colloquial style of writing about very meaningful things.

38:55

along with, honestly, some of the sportswriters that I used to admire.

38:59

Yeah. Jim Murray, Rick Reilly, for a moment in time,

39:03

bill Simmons, you know, he tip towards podcasting away from writing.

39:06

But there was this sort of movement and Jim Murray predates the other two.

39:10

But where you can kind of. And I have this about me too when I write, especially like I'm pretty voici

39:15

like it's I use parenthetical sides and all that stuff.

39:19

and it's from those days of reading works

39:23

that felt like, hey, this is a microcosm of all the meaning

39:27

of the human experience sports, business, food.

39:31

Love it. Oh, man. okay.

39:34

Well, I'm going to put links to all those in the show notes.

39:37

Thank you. And, as well as your books as well.

39:41

and this has been so much fun, J I like I think I'm, I'm going to check out your,

39:47

your mastermind, but that's for, that's for a different thing.

39:52

imagine, if you will, that there's these people, and maybe they have a unique perspective.

39:59

Maybe they're just trying to. And it doesn't matter whether they're just new to

40:02

speaking or new to, you know, taking this step out into the world.

40:05

We call them rebels and waiting. And they're just like, there's these there's just this bit of energy

40:11

behind them, but they just don't quite have enough to get over the edge.

40:16

Yeah. sometimes I liken it to Wily Coyote stepping

40:19

off the edge, looking down and realizing that there's nothing there.

40:22

And it's that moment just before they fall or have the oh sign.

40:27

What advice would you give to these rebels in waiting for how to move forward?

40:34

You need to be able to look yourself in the eye and others

40:36

you're trying to serve, and be able to message to yourself or others

40:41

where they can find your work and at what cadence.

40:44

This is a long way of saying you need a creative practice.

40:48

I don't know how many times people are like, I have all this work inside me.

40:51

I have all these stories and ideas and things,

40:53

and I go, tell me about your creative practice. And they look at me like, I have three heads, right?

40:57

And I'm like, okay, let, let let me tell you about mine every other Friday.

41:02

And it started for many years as every Friday.

41:05

But I you know, I'm at the point now where I don't need to do as much volume,

41:08

but every week for years

41:11

I wrote a newsletter, mostly to no one.

41:14

I wrote a blog, mostly to no one,

41:16

and I would ship that on Friday mornings. Why?

41:20

Because that was my day to ship. Not because I feel good, not because I'm inspired.

41:24

I joke that I like take a mean girls approach.

41:27

If anyone's familiar with the film Mean Girls like on Wednesdays we wear pink.

41:31

Why? Because it's Wednesday. Why am I shipping on Friday?

41:34

Because it's Friday, not because it's the best thing I ever did, or I feel great, or the news made me happy.

41:38

It's because it's Friday. Like if you had a ticket to a train to get to a work meeting at 8 a.m.

41:43

tomorrow, no matter what's going on in your life or your day, you'd be on that train.

41:48

Like that's how you have to treat the work.

41:50

All of this is practiced.

41:52

It's not just going to happen. And I also hate the people that are like, we'll just muscle through.

41:57

No, like in the quiet,

42:00

when you feel like you have nothing to give,

42:03

the only thing you can do is put something on the page and hit publish.

42:08

That's fine. It gets you to the next step and the next step and the next step.

42:12

So I like to say that, you know, you have all these creative heroes.

42:14

You admire all these rebels, if you will, that you're like, oh, if only I could do something like them.

42:19

I wish we had like an alien technology gifted to us, where you could scan

42:23

your creative heroes and understand the caliber

42:26

of their entire body of work, because all we get are the greatest hits.

42:30

All we get are the eighth version of that thing, right?

42:34

All that alien technology would reveal to us is like, oh, we put all these

42:38

people up on a pedestal, but that pedestal is actually made of crappy work.

42:42

Sure. So go make crappy work over and over and over on a deadline.

42:47

No matter what, you will not be able

42:50

to resist the urge or prevent yourself from eventually creating work

42:54

that is all your own and that others appreciate too.

42:58

Oh J Holy shit, thank you so much for that.

43:02

Sure, sure you have the intention for quality.

43:06

Keep that. Now go create quantity on a deadline.

43:09

That's it. You have good intentions. Don't. Don't get rid of that.

43:12

Don't willingly be like, I don't care about any good things.

43:15

I don't care about you or about my quality.

43:17

No, that's not what I'm saying. That is not what I'm saying.

43:20

Hold dear to your desire to create something special, but know that

43:24

the path there is going to look like a lot of messing around.

43:27

But that's actually where you find all the best stuff.

43:29

That's where you find yourself. That's where you find your best ideas.

43:31

That's where your audience finds you and develops a relationship to you.

43:34

It happens in the making of the mess.

43:36

So to go make a mess, I love it.

43:39

and on that note, all this stuff in the show notes Gia cancer.com.

43:45

Your new podcast will put that all there.

43:47

Your books. Jay. This has been.

43:49

It's just time well spent. Thank you so much for being so generous with it.

43:54

Thank you. This is super fun. I love what you're doing in the world.

43:57

Please keep at it and your audience is better for it.

44:00

Thanks to you.

44:02

Thank you so much for listening. I've been your host, Michael Dargie, and this has been the Rebel Rebel Podcast

44:06

as a podcast for creative rebels and entrepreneurs all over the world.

44:09

And hey, if you're a rebel or, you know, a rebel, why don't you head on over

44:13

to the Rebel Rebel podcast.com and fill out our guest request form.

44:16

We'll get back to you within 24 hours, and maybe we can share your story with them.

44:21

Don't forget to like, share, or subscribe wherever you get your favorite podcasts.