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Welcome to The RebelRebel. I'm your host, Michael Dargie.

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The RebelRebel is a show dedicated to creative rebels and entrepreneurs all over the world.

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It's a love letter to those people who think audaciously

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and act courageously in service. Of making the world a better and more interesting place.

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I got to a point where I was just like, okay, I got to stop complaining

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and do something about it. It's not even about the fact that people don't even really care about the facts.

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It's it's really about the ineffective communication.

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We're not going to punish anybody as long as they don't

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violated the terms for bad comments.

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But what we do do is, is we reward people for good comment.

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Today's guest has this crazy idea to help constructive discourse worldwide.

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How hard would it be to change the way we consume information

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and interact with viewpoints that are different from our own?

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We're going to find out and dive right in. Welcome.

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Amir Sheikh, the founder of Ponderly to The RebelRebel Podcast.

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Amir, how the hell are you? I'm doing very well.

1:02

Thanks for having me, Michael. I'll give you a quick maybe elevator pitch here to save some time.

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But I back in right before COVID,

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I was already thinking about it a little frustrated

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with friends and family and society with the divisiveness

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and just just just vitriol that that I saw everywhere.

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And I got to a point where I was just like, okay,

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I got to stop complaining and do something about it.

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COVID helped a little. Obviously kind of containing us.

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And so I started for me,

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and then I think through testing and,

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you know, going through that process rebranded to ponder and,

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you know, here we are today so positively is a platform.

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We're on Google Play Store, Apple Store, and we have a website as well,

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and we produce original content,

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which is unique in that we bring perspectives from both sides.

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So it is very different because every other platform out there

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basically just says, Trust me, I'm telling you the truth and you know,

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you're getting a good summary from me and we use a different approach.

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And just like I said, where we say, no, well, we're going to give you the left

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side of the right side or the you know, it doesn't even have to be political.

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It could be sports, it could be from the losing team in the winning team.

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And, you know, we're expecting the user to take that

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and then make informed decisions. So we are neutral as a platform.

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Well, okay, So because I'm new to this whole thing, because I was checking it out

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and I've got it on this other screen over here.

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So the idea is it's

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let me just read re capture what you said there is

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that you can have this idea like, I don't know.

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let me let me use this one because I just saw this. Is the NFL rigged?

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So this is like a conversation people have all the time.

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And there's some weird stuff I saw online.

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It says, it's totally rigged. And there's some weird video of some guys saying it was blah, blah, blah.

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Right. So you basically put up this poll is what it amounts to.

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You've got two dissenting or contrasting viewpoints.

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One person says, yes, it is. And here's the reasons why.

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Another person says, No, it isn't, and here's the reasons why.

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And then you give people the opportunity to weigh in

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for what they believe and add comments.

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So it basically adds to the conversation.

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Kind of you're very close. Okay.

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So we actually you know, it was pretty close.

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It's interesting where you you presented it, But yeah, no,

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we produced the content itself. But we do have a poll, so we know, like people are talking about

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is the NFL rigged? So we have actually a real article, We have fake boxes, which we kind of carry

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and then yeah, then we source the writers for both sides and then the user on the app.

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Basically, if they're interested in that, they click on it,

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they read through both sides and then they can, you know, poll and comment and insight.

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So so yeah, I think it's something that we have

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13 categories as sports is one of them that you just mentioned.

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And so, you know, our job is to make sure that we're in the know in those categories.

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And we have, you know, writers that that, you know,

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know what's trending and what people are talking about.

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And then we try to come up with with prompts within that. Now,

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the reason the reason I kind of mentioned Trai

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is that it's a lot more difficult than it seems.

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You know, there's a there's a few kind of barriers. The first one is not everything is

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is interesting, controversial.

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I know everything you know, potentially could be, but not very much.

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And so is it okay to innocently

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kill people, for example, you know, kill innocent people?

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Most people will not say it's okay. Right.

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So it's not really a debate. And I give you an extreme example, right? Yeah.

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But there's a lot of there's a lot of topics out there that people aren't

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they're not interested in. So you can't just ask a question.

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And even within an interesting topic,

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you have to really have an angle that there can be two clear sides.

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Okay, Because a lot of things today especially are very complicated.

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And if you don't if you don't have to clear sides, then you don't even know

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which side you want to take because both sides have kind of a point.

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And so it definitely is is definitely is a challenge.

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I think going through this process is understanding,

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you know, how people think and how to present something

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that's easy to to associate with and understand which side to be on.

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Wow. Well, so, I mean, I want to learn more

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about potentially I like deep dive, but I am

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passionately curious about you as a person.

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And what is it that drove you to build this thing.

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So, yeah, I think, okay, No, I was going to say, let's go back in time,

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do a little time travel, and it doesn't have to be like you were just sitting around with a buddy

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one day, like what actually happened? Like to what did you see that caused you to go this way?

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Yeah, and I'm comfortable sharing this specifically example.

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And we can go in more depth if you need to.

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But I think it happened over over many, many moons.

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You know, I would say, you know, probably a couple of decades.

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And I'll give this one very, very specific example because it's important to me.

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But I grew up a little bit more conservative, I think,

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and I still have a lot of the conservative values.

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But, you know, one of the things I was very adamantly against,

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you know, homosexuality specifically

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even identify me in any way, didn't affect my life in any way.

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I just had that view because of the environment and all this.

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And I think there was not one moment that I can say,

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now you know what I have I'm not against it.

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It doesn't bother me. You know, if someone if people want to live that lifestyle

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or have those partners, like has nothing to do with me and,

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you know, I should be supportive of them, just like I support heterosexual couples.

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Sure. There was not a moment, but I think when I look back at my life,

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there were plenty of people through the years that said

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things to me and said, Hey, I'm here like, why are you so against it?

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You know what? Has somebody done something to you?

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Somebody making you do something? And I think if I count those those conversations, there

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might have been, you know, a lot over the years.

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And I think it's the it's the culmination of all of those conversations

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at the time. My growth, my other life experiences that eventually I kind of slowly,

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you know, came around to. Yeah, you know what? It has nothing to do with me.

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And it's, you know, your reasons for saying that it's bad or not valid,

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you know, all the, all the other things, I think, you know, came a came along over time.

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And that's really what I think is, is to bring it back to to

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your original question is is what happened with ponder as well

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because I obviously am human I have my own personal views

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on a lot of issues, some of them more stronger than others.

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And I think over time I realized that, you know, life is not that simple.

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People aren't most people are not evil and good.

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Most people are not dumb or intelligent.

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You know, we're all kind of a combination of those.

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And depending on what topic we're talking about, we could be, you know, more on one side and something in the other.

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So it's very complicated. And, you know, when when I dug even further,

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I found that, you know, a lot of the conflict that we have,

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you know, in society, it's not even about the facts.

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Like people don't even really care about the facts. It's, it's really about the ineffective communication.

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And that's what it comes down to, is that I'm not able to

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to communicate effectively to you that, you know,

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the NFL is not rigged and you believe it because you saw one or two things.

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And from your perspective, it looked true.

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And so you're not going to listen to anything else that you made your mind up.

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And, you know, if we were able to sit in a room and have like a long conversation

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and interrupted and you respected me, I respected you,

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you know, we might not necessarily change our opinion, but I think we might not think the other side is like evil.

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And we need to, like, read them of this world, you know,

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And and that's really you know, it's funny is that is that's what a lot of people are today is like,

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you know what? You don't believe? You know, you don't believe what I believe on this law.

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You know, you shouldn't even be living. You know, you shouldn't even you know, it's

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just we take it to such extreme levels.

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And and, you know, I don't think we need to go into the to the consequences of that.

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But that's harmful for society. It's harmful for us as individuals,

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as harmful for us, as, you know, to to to for our children and so on and so forth.

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And so I think for me, it's like instead of trying to fight like fire

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with fire and say, okay, well, let's let's find a way to get people together where we can not force each other

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to change our minds, you know, not, you know, shove things

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down down each other's throat, but just say, hey,

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let me just hear what you have to say. And maybe afterwards I even believe myself even more.

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That's fine. But I can respect you as a human, and I respect that you're not a bad person.

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And you have you see things differently for a wide variety of reasons.

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That's very noble pursuit, by the way.

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That's I think that's that

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giving a space to have actual conversations is is amazing

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and certainly very timely

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in today's day and age. Definitely.

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What if I were to ask you,

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I guess I ask this question how how much how many problems do you have

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on the platform with people coming in with very hot takes on their side?

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And is it respectful? How do you protect your users?

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Like I'm curious about all that stuff.

10:16

Yeah, yeah. So right now,

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you know, we've been spending a greater than 95% of our resources time, etc.

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on backend development. And so we do kind of focus groups

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and other things, but for the most part we're working on development

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and including content. I think that, you know, right now

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we're looking to focus on engagement, so not necessarily numbers.

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I think the numbers thing is going to be the next step.

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So once we kind of flesh out some of these,

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some of the bugs, some of these some of these, you know, essentially

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what we're trying to do is we're getting to the right ingredients.

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So, you know, we take things from like Tik Tok or Instagram or some of the media,

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and you see things that work and we put them together.

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But it's not it's not only the ingredients, it's like,

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which order do you put it in? How do you present it?

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And so so we're focused on that.

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But I think with the content moderation, I think was one of your questions.

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It's interesting. So for us, like the First Amendment

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is really, really important that we that we mirror that as much as possible.

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So, you know, unless you're making a threat to another user or anything illegal

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or anything that wouldn't be covered under the First Amendment,

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we're going to allow it. So that's our personal view.

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When you go on the App Store or when you go on the Google Play Store,

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when you submit for APP, it's very restrictive, especially for someone like us

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because we do have obviously user generated content.

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And so they actually put a lot of limitations on us on top of that

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because it's their platform. I mean, I mean, it's their marketplace, right?

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And so if we want to do business on their marketplace, they said, hey, you know, so we actually have to do things

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such as we have to monitor content, we have to have like a flag.

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We have to have like blocked block options and various kind of scenarios.

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There's all kinds of things that they make us do.

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So even if I didn't want to do it, it's just,

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you know, and before you get approval to be on there to do an update,

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you know, they check for that. And so if it's not there, they're just not going to approve you. So,

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but yeah, just, just going back to us as a platform, our,

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our kind of ethos, we're focused on First Amendment and,

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you know, I think even the dumb ideas, I think they have some value.

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We might just, we just might not see it.

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But if people however you know, and I say dumb like with quotes

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because you know, but you know, however dumb or ignorant or hurtful,

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you think some of these comments or views are,

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if enough people feel that way, there's a reason. Right.

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And I think instead of sweeping it under the rug or instead of demonizing the group, you know, I think, you know,

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the better route to do is to understand and to work with that group.

12:47

Right. And, you know, ultimately, we should all be working together,

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you know, for everyone's benefit.

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And if we demonize or we ignore, we shut down or censor.

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You know, I think in my mind, I don't see how that that's bringing people together. Wow.

13:06

It's it's a it's a it's not a small platform then that you're

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that you've created

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like I think have you experienced any backlash about it or.

13:18

No I mean I mean through that so you know even up to now like we've been

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you know rebranding we've been developing and making changes.

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So through that process, yes, there's definitely been.

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But the backlash has mostly been because I've been involved

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with a lot of the users, you know, with feedback or focus groups.

13:34

I hear hear things. And, you know, the number one thing I hear

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from every side, whatever the position is that

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I mean, I can't believe you allowed this to be said.

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Like, you know, you know, I can't believe you allowed this to be said.

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And, you know, I'm I, I have learned to be very neutral.

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And so I don't tell the other person that, hey, well, actually, you said this,

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and that's actually pretty bad, too. You know, I don't say that because, again, it's not it's not helping the situation.

13:59

But for me, it's more like I need people to

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or I want people to understand that without it being like, I got you or,

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you know, I won the conversation, you were wrong, too.

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That's not an effective way. You know, if even if you're right, if you humiliate,

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whether overtly or, you know, inadvertently,

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you know, you're just not going to get that person to to to change and you're not going to get

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that person to admit they were wrong or make any positive changes.

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And so you have to do it in a way where they realize, you know,

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just like I gave you, you know, my personal, personal example,

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where I realized on my own I didn't have I had countless

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people tell me that this was wrong and, you know,

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none of your business and all of those things. But until I realized on my own that was the only, only way, you know, I changed.

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And I think most people, you know, they operate the same way.

14:49

So it's you and me. This is an oversimplification.

14:52

Are you saying that this is kind of like a safe space for conversation?

14:57

Yeah, that's an interesting way. I didn't. I, I never heard it in those words, but yeah, I would say

15:02

it's a safe place, you know, for for conversations.

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A couple of things we've done and that are coming down

15:08

the pipeline as well as gamification we're introducing.

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So it's we're not going to punish anybody as long as they don't violate that.

15:16

The terms for bad comments.

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But what we do do is, is we reward people for good comments.

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And so, you know, if you make a comment, for example, and you get enough users

15:27

that liked that comment, you'll get reward points for that.

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And so you're basically incentivized now to to make productive comments.

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And so those are the types of things that we're integrating into the platform

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because we're really we are personally very against, you know, censorship

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and controlling people and controlling people. You know, what they think our our strategy is more the

15:45

that really nice restaurant strategy where the rules

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in a really nice restaurant in a McDonald's are likely not very off

15:53

but people behave differently and the same people that would go to

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that McDonald's will save differently or will behave differently.

15:59

They'll sit differently, they'll talk differently. All of those things, even though the rules are pretty much the same.

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And so the reason for that, obviously, is, you know, the people that are there, the

16:08

that the decor, you know, there's there's all these factors that

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and so the restaurant isn't forcing you to sit in a certain way

16:14

or to behave or all that. But you know, you kind of can control that environment.

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So we're kind of bringing that same, same logic to this, is that,

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you know, we're not we can't stop trolls or we can't stop people from

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just being hateful, you know, for no productive reason.

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But I think if we if we do some of these things, like the gamification, for example,

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the other ways like, you know, how we kind of structure the articles

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and how we have like the fact like there's there's a number of things that we do

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that, you know, is equivalent to analogy of a nice restaurant,

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then you have less of it, right? You know, nice restaurants have bad people to a bad patrons too.

16:47

But it's less likely that I'm assuming than like a McDonald's.

16:51

Fair, I guess. Fair assumption. Yeah. Okay.

16:55

Okay. How do you how do you determine what is a fact?

17:01

Yeah. Good question. I think, you know, when we determine what is a fair so we have a fact box

17:08

in every article and that's curated by us and our editors and even us.

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We check ourselves and we do that by having multiple people check each other.

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And we do have a process as well.

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And that's a very good question. Like to be 100% on anything is not possible.

17:25

Right? So and I'm talking about issues like this, like there's some things like one

17:30

plus one is two. You know, it's going to be difficult. But, you know,

17:32

when you're talking about social issues or like sports or things like on a call,

17:35

you know, it's very difficult to get, you know, depending on what it is down to 2 to 100% accuracy.

17:41

But I think what we can what we can do or how we're we're better

17:44

is that we're closer to the truth, I think, than that than many others.

17:48

So when you have you know, like when you have a fact that

17:53

let's say let me see something that's not,

17:57

you know, too controversial, but if you

18:00

if you make the statement of, for example, you know, are there two genders.

18:05

Right. Right. Versus if you make a statement like are there, you know,

18:09

two sexes, for example, or or, you know, a variation of those things?

18:13

You know, there's there's obviously a lot of people who are very, very strong

18:15

who feel very strongly about that specific topic.

18:18

And, you know, I think the way that we try to present it

18:22

in our fact box is that instead of saying there are two genders,

18:26

that there are more than two genders, we will pick a fact that might be a variation

18:31

that's not controversial, that can address that, you know, so something like that.

18:35

So we will say something like, you know, Doctor Dr.

18:38

Michael in 1972 did a study and this is what it showed.

18:42

So we're not saying that, you know, this is true.

18:44

This is also we'll try to make like an objective kind of fact, like in between.

18:48

Yeah. And still kind of addressing it,

18:50

but and kind of dancing around because it's very important for us,

18:53

especially, you know, as we build this brand and we build this platform,

18:57

if we're creating our own content, we have to have credibility.

19:00

And that credibility is very difficult to to earn.

19:03

It's very easy to lose. You know, on one little thing, you can lose all credibility.

19:07

And so, you know, we have to make sure that we

19:11

we go by the process that we've established internally.

19:14

Even then, we have multiple checks and balances.

19:16

And then I look at it at the end as well, from a from a kind of a neutral chrome

19:20

just to make sure like nothing slipped through. And sometimes things do.

19:24

And when I look at it most of the time, they're they're, you know, they're not

19:28

director overt. They're just like, that that was a simple mistake or whatever.

19:32

But those things to me are very important that we stay neutral.

19:35

Interesting is so and this is, this is me getting into the weeds

19:39

just because I'm interested and I tend to follow the questions,

19:43

but I'm looking at your fact box here and this one I'm

19:46

looking at to see, you know, it's is the student loan forgiveness.

19:50

Biden Got it. And in the fact box it has these facts which is really cool that

19:56

Nerdwallet reports that over 43 million Americans have outstanding student debt.

19:59

Easy to check. Well, have you thought of having a, you know,

20:05

challenge this fact opportunity for somebody to be like, no, dude, that's not right at all.

20:10

As a matter of fact, it's yeah. It'd be more like a go ahead.

20:13

No, no. I'm just wondering if if each one of these facts could be,

20:17

you know, if I could be like, I have some special knowledge.

20:21

This is clearly not what I know as a fact.

20:23

I'd like to submit that to you. Yeah. Yeah, I think. And yeah, good question.

20:27

No, I mean, as we've been developing, all of these ideas have come across and

20:32

essentially like the Wikipedia equivalent almost where,

20:36

you know, you can come in and contribute or, you know, make changes or.

20:39

I know I don't want to change, I think that would be a recipe for disaster.

20:43

I just send it for moderation to be like, I got it.

20:46

You know? Yeah. So you're welcome to in anybody's welcome to like in the comments just say

20:50

hey you know upon really like I think this fact is off or you know

20:55

you know this fact is better or whatever and we definitely look at those so

20:58

great. Yeah that's it.

21:02

Yeah. The way we have our system in the setup back, I'm like,

21:04

you know, if someone gets flagged or blocked or whatever, like we get separate, separate, you know,

21:09

we have tracking for everything, so we're definitely on top of it.

21:12

That's cool. This is a really fascinating thing.

21:17

I'm, I'm excited for you to put this out into the world

21:21

and see what see what happens.

21:25

Go ahead. Sorry. no, I was just going to say, yeah, no, it.

21:29

And right now we're at that. We're starting to reach out to investors.

21:33

I think a while we're going through this engagement process where we're getting,

21:38

you know, direct feedback from random people and focus groups and all of those things and making adjustments on the fly.

21:43

I think when we

21:46

can get that ingredient right, the perfect ingredient gradient,

21:49

where we have all the great features from social platforms,

21:51

from from media content that people want to want to see

21:55

it, at that point, we're just going to scale.

21:57

and I think a lot of the things we're building internally,

22:01

not only with, you know, the development but also like, you know, the,

22:04

the fact boxes and the editing,

22:07

the sourcing of writers like all of those things

22:09

where we're probably not as efficient as, as we would

22:14

in the short term because we're looking at that long term scalability.

22:17

And so that way we can just hit the switch and, and kind of grow.

22:20

But it's really, really exciting times, but it's very stressful.

22:25

It's a lot of work. you know, if you think you can, you can do this without working

22:29

seven days a week or working late nights, it's just not humanly possible.

22:33

So yeah, yeah, I would say it's like,

22:36

you know, when you, when you have a, when you have a new kid, you know,

22:38

you don't get to sleep and you know, you have to go through all this.

22:41

But, you know, in the end it's worth it, right?

22:43

Most of the time. Other times. Growing pains. Yeah.

22:46

that's cool. Where are you in the world? Ish.

22:50

You don't have to give. Me in Southern California. We're in Southern California.

22:53

Okay, So. Yeah.

22:55

So you're in Southern California? Yeah. Are you close to the ocean or. No?

23:00

depends what you consider close, but probably an hour away.

23:03

Okay. Yeah, I was just trying to think of some sort of landmark.

23:08

I don't know what things are. I'm assuming it means the desert, right? Yeah.

23:11

There's some palm trees kicking around. It's.

23:13

Yeah, we definitely have some palm trees, and we brought in a lot of water,

23:16

so it's hard to recognize that we're in the desert right.

23:21

So I guess one of the questions I like to ask,

23:24

or I like to put you in this spot where you're walking down

23:26

your favorite street, whatever that happens to be.

23:29

Maybe it's cobblestone, maybe it's not. Maybe they're skateboarders.

23:31

Maybe it I don't know. It doesn't matter. But there's palm trees.

23:33

It's beautiful. It's so cool.

23:35

And you're thinking to yourself. There's just one thing I wish the world knew.

23:40

What is that? What is that thing for you? And you're asking if I was able to communicate to everybody.

23:46

Instantly, like, okay, what? What is it like?

23:49

What do you think about what are you just like, man, I just I wish.

23:52

And sometimes it's be like, you know what? Pineapple does belong on pizza.

23:55

I wish people just knew that and got over it.

23:58

Right? Right. Yeah. No, I think and I don't know if I have, like a one word answer is

24:03

it does have to be a one word answer. Okay. No, I think for me, it's more I wish people knew

24:09

if we could all work together in a productive way,

24:12

it would benefit all of us so much more

24:15

than if all of us work individually or for our own interests.

24:18

And that doesn't mean necessarily individual interests, but group interests or identity interests.

24:23

Like if we just all work together, we would already have the cure for cancer.

24:27

We all these things that we complain about, you know, homelessness, all these,

24:31

they would be gone. Like it's not those things are not, not problems because we don't have the ability.

24:36

Those things are problems because of us, because of our limitations and our,

24:41

you know, our our fighting and and, you know, lack of

24:44

effective communication, like I mentioned and, you know, all of those things.

24:47

So that's that's what hurts me most. You know, if you if you tell me, hey, hey, I'm here, like, you know,

24:52

I should have played in the NBA. I could at like at no point in my life

24:55

could I have because I didn't have the ability. So there's nothing for me to be angry about, right?

24:59

Because I just I never had it. But, you know, if you if you said, hey, maybe you should have played in that

25:04

second grade basketball team and won, then yeah, I should have, because obviously I

25:08

you know, and so that's really where I kind of see the world is

25:11

that, you know, we're just shooting ourselves in the foot like

25:15

all day, you know, and, and it's hurtful because we're all suffering, you know, as a result.

25:20

So that's what I would I would like to communicate first is for people to realize that.

25:26

And then, yeah, I don't know if this is kind of a second part.

25:28

Just, you know, I would say like, say sorry, you know, you know, just to

25:32

to say sorry. I mean, a lot of us and I'm saying, myself included, I think if we were just to go

25:37

and just say sorry to a few people that, you know, that deserve it, I think some

25:41

some of that that might be a starting point to that solution where, you know, like,

25:45

you know, a lot of us, you know, they they cut people out of your life

25:48

or they're unproductive because of that resentment and that,

25:51

you know like hey and it and doesn't mean that hey,

25:53

I did it on purpose or intentionally it could have been a situational,

25:58

but it hurt that person And that stuff again becomes, you know, over time

26:02

it festers and, you know, it just becomes unhealthy and that's what we see.

26:06

So, you know, I would say like if you could say sorry to like three people

26:10

that, you know, you cared about at one time or you were close to.

26:13

And, you know, you're you're very likely with most of them, you'll see them changed

26:17

and you'll see them, you know, at least make an effort like, you know what?

26:21

I that was really hurtful, but thank you.

26:23

That means a lot. You know, that that that you did that.

26:25

And so for me, it's about bringing people together because I think people together

26:29

are just can do some amazing things and people apart.

26:33

You know, we're super limited. So that's awesome.

26:37

That's a that's a that's a first for this show.

26:40

And so that's that's lovely. Thanks. Amir.

26:43

Yeah. No, it's it's important.

26:46

What do you what do you do just for Amir? Like, you know, you're raising this, this app

26:51

called Ponder Lee, you know, seven days a week, 24 hours a day.

26:54

But what do you do just for you?

26:57

What's a little less than 24 hours? But,

27:00

yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I have a family, I have kids.

27:03

You know, I have a business that I work in as well outside of this.

27:08

And, you know, there's a few other organizations.

27:11

There's, there's, there's a bunch of things that I do. I think, you know, I kind of made a concerted effort a few years ago to say,

27:19

you know, and a lot of it had to do with talking with the people a lot

27:22

older than myself and learning from them.

27:25

And, you know, consistently when I talk to them,

27:28

I don't the things that they regret or the things that they talk about,

27:32

you know, have nothing to do with short term

27:35

or materialistic things or, you know, things that are day to day.

27:38

And, you know, that's one thing I really, really learned.

27:41

And so I think a lot of the times, you know, when I am overwhelmed

27:44

or a lot going on, I kind of look back at and I have to stop myself and say, okay,

27:48

you know, 20 years from now, 30 years from now, I'm not going to remember this.

27:51

Right. But I'm going to remember like, did I make a difference in this?

27:54

Or, you know, did you know, did me, you know, helping this person

27:58

or working with this person or whatever that is? Like, that's what's going to that's that's what what is going to be important.

28:03

And remember, and that really is what is important.

28:05

You know, it's not only what I feel. And so I think,

28:09

you know, that that's really important to me. Like it that sucks sometimes, you know, when you're working a lot

28:15

or when you have a lot on your plate, it's not even necessarily the physical work

28:20

because that goes away. It's more that that the burden of the stress that I think that's carried.

28:26

And, you know, you can do things to mitigate

28:29

that and I do things to mitigate that. But we're all human.

28:31

I'm not going to pretend here and say, hey, I can just swipe off stress like it's nothing. No.

28:36

You know, I think some people are better at it than others.

28:39

But all of us, you know, if you're human and you breathe and you bleed, you,

28:43

you you're going to you're going to deal with stress. And it's just

28:47

you know, you have to balance those things in life.

28:49

And and you have to look at where you are in life and what you want.

28:51

And you know what your goals are. And so,

28:54

you know, maybe ten or 20 years ago, if you asked me, I would have given you a different answer.

28:57

And then ten or 20 years from now, I'd probably give you a different answer.

29:00

And those answers might be correct at those points in my life.

29:04

Yeah, but

29:07

yeah. Awesome. I love it.

29:10

I do. Do you have time to read?

29:14

I, I only read like, you know,

29:17

nonfiction or like, informative or like, articles or things that are quick.

29:23

I just don't have enough time to sit down and, like, read a book.

29:26

Yeah, And I and I have never been a book reader.

29:30

I think back in school I was forced to and I, and I really didn't like it.

29:36

And so it's not something that I do. I like to get to like what's the point?

29:40

Or like, what am I trying to ascertain kind of kind of mentality?

29:43

Yeah, I know there's good and bad with that, but you know that

29:47

that's how I am. And, and so it's just that I read every day, but it's like I said,

29:51

it's articles or things that I need to that I'm looking for answers.

29:55

Specifically, what are your thoughts on AA right now?

29:58

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, for us, it's interesting conversation I've been having internally as well because,

30:05

you know, we source actual writers that are qualified and do work and which.

30:10

Is awesome. When I look at. I appreciate. That. Yeah, yeah, I know it is.

30:14

But when you look at I

30:16

it's still not there yet especially for what we're doing

30:20

however, is definitely bridging the gap and it's bridging it quickly.

30:24

And if it continues to grow exponentially, you know, it won't be long until,

30:28

you know, they'll be outpacing humans.

30:31

And I think, you know, it's interesting

30:35

and it's not only going to affect us, obviously going to affect everybody.

30:38

And, you know, I kind of look at it,

30:41

you know, like in this way where if you look at

30:44

an artist, a musician, and you see them,

30:48

you know, perform, you know, on a on a track digitally, it's flawless.

30:52

It's perfect. Everything is you know, it's flawless.

30:56

But if people have a choice to listen to their favorite artist,

31:00

you know, at home and their speaker or hear them at a concert

31:03

where they're going to cough or, you know, take breaks, water breaks and make floors and, you know, all of that.

31:08

Most people will prefer the concert and they prefer the flaws.

31:11

And that's the human part of it. I think that that we have that I don't I don't see that going away.

31:17

And I and I think that and today the air is valuable

31:21

and will become more valuable because the efficiency and productivity,

31:26

you know, gains are going to far outpace any human.

31:29

However, if if

31:32

all of us have perfectly efficient, perfectly productive lives,

31:35

that doesn't equate to human happiness.

31:39

And so I think that's where I think there's going to be a equilibrium.

31:42

There's going to be a balance. So it's only going to get to a certain level.

31:45

Now, if I don't have to, you know, take out the trash, I don't have to do certain things.

31:49

And yeah, that's not going to, you know, you know, have a significant effect.

31:55

but, you know, as soon as you start getting into like writing all my emails

31:59

or my thoughts or, you know, where I don't have to do anything or think

32:02

or anything, then you kind of have to question like, what's my purpose?

32:05

Like, what are we doing? And am I getting satisfaction or happiness?

32:09

And so there's some biological stuff that kind of gets into it.

32:11

And so that's why I think that I'm not worried in the sense that it's

32:14

going to take everything to that level because there's that human thing.

32:18

But from where we are today and to that efficient level,

32:22

like there's a lot of space between and I don't know, you know, judging

32:26

from how we got through COVID and all the other things in the past,

32:29

like I don't know if we're capable of managing that as a society.

32:33

We're just very I mean, we're too big and there's too many players, and I

32:36

just don't know how that's going to play.

32:38

So I'm more concerned with the again, going back to the human part of it, of

32:42

how we're going to manage that and how we're going to, you know, regulate that or not.

32:45

And, you know, so, so, so on and so forth. But I think, you know, for for for a long, long term,

32:50

I don't think that we're going to get to perfect efficiency because,

32:52

I mean, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't want,

32:55

you know, to not be able to think or use my creativity or even

32:58

there is a beauty in making mistakes. There's a beauty in falling, falling short, like,

33:02

you know, if you want to win at everything and not lose that.

33:05

I mean, maybe there are some people I don't know, but I'm not that way.

33:08

And so that's where I feel like there's going to be, you know,

33:11

some equilibrium in some some ceiling for I at some point,

33:16

you know. So that's my personal view.

33:18

Yeah. Yeah, I dig it. I find that like for myself and what we're seeing on our side, like,

33:24

not just on the show but like just in our creative agency

33:28

that we run is we're using it for education.

33:31

We're using it to, to level up what we need to know

33:36

or new technology or new things like it is

33:39

an incredible tool for learning stuff,

33:43

you know, and I don't know if you've seen perplexity yet,

33:46

but it's like it's next level.

33:49

So it will go out and, you know, find answers to things, but also site those answers

33:54

so that you've got, you know, an actual frame of reference to be like, okay,

33:57

this is, you know, this is five things I need to know and it's all corroborated.

34:02

But yeah, I agree I don't want perfect

34:05

like yeah that all the struggles the fun yeah.

34:09

Yeah I mean I think that like on our development you know we have a development team and I think for them it's a lot of time

34:15

in writing like remedial code that yeah you know what's code, you know.

34:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if it's basic stuff it's fine.

34:22

But something more complex, it's not there yet.

34:24

And you know, there's, there's, there's that into it.

34:27

But yeah, I mean it's, it's going to be an interesting future here and it's moving

34:31

very, very quickly so you know well to be continued they're right.

34:35

On if you were to I mean you're you're an entrepreneur

34:38

you're a startup guy if you were to give I call them rebels in waiting,

34:44

maybe somebody who's like Emir who's like, I've got this great idea for a thing,

34:48

the the next best whatever it happens to be.

34:51

What would be your advice to that person.

34:54

In the startup community specifically? Yeah, sure.

34:56

Well, you know, somebody who's like you, who is about to do a thing.

35:01

Yeah, I think that the first thing before, whatever that idea is, is that

35:06

you got to know what you're doing and you got to know that market,

35:09

like before anything like it doesn't.

35:12

You can be successful in any market, anything you do

35:16

if you know what you're doing and you know that the good, the bad,

35:19

the bogeys, like all of that, you can you can be successful in anything.

35:23

So that's what I would say. First, I think and I know I've made this mistake

35:27

where I first tried to solve a problem where I think it's a problem

35:31

or I try to get into something because I think

35:33

it's going to be the next best thing.

35:36

But, you know, we live especially in the information where

35:38

we have a lot of information, like find out for sure if that is a thing.

35:42

Don't don't go by your gut. You know, don't go by your intuition.

35:46

Use your gut for day to day. But when you look at something that drastic where you can invest

35:51

time, money, research all that into something,

35:54

get the answer first and then back into it and say, okay, like,

35:57

wow, you know, I did some, you know, focus or I did some, you know, all this stuff.

36:01

And I know for sure, like if I do this, you know, there's definitely a demand there.

36:06

You know, once you have that demand, then those little nuances, nuances

36:09

and navigating and stuff, that's all hard work and dedication and, you know,

36:13

working up, you know, late night hours. That's all.

36:16

I mean, you need to be prepared for that regardless.

36:19

But you don't want to waste your time, you know,

36:22

you know, getting basically you don't want to waste your time

36:26

on getting something a very small return from a very big investment. And,

36:34

you know, I'm trying to think of an analogy, but, you know, I think the point is point is made there.

36:38

And so I think too many people, including myself, have done that, where it's like,

36:41

you know, we're very wishful and we really want something

36:44

and we think this is the best thing, but we don't really know.

36:47

And we're just going based off of our intuition and our gut or maybe even our immediate circle

36:51

that we're surrounded with. And a lot of times people don't realize your immediate circle.

36:55

A lot of times are people who think like you as well.

36:58

So it's not as diverse as you think.

37:01

And so sometimes to get that get that knowledge, you have to go after people

37:04

you might not like or you don't agree with or you don't

37:06

you don't have the same lifestyle and get kind of their input before you

37:10

before you dig into it. Yeah.

37:13

So that's what I would say first is like, you know, make sure it's something that's a real problem.

37:17

Make sure it's something that you know, there's a there's a

37:20

there's a huge potential and a huge upside in.

37:24

And a lot of times when you start to go through that journey,

37:27

you'll find that in most cases there's not as much upside as it looks

37:31

because you're not and I don't mean this in a condescending way, but all of us,

37:37

we're not the smartest, you know, I know we all think we're the smartest.

37:40

I know we think we're the highest moral person.

37:42

You know, we got we're the best at whatever we do.

37:45

But you're likely not right.

37:47

And so, you know, just if it's very unlikely

37:51

that you came up with something that, you know, nobody else thought of, now,

37:54

it might be something that you came up with

37:56

and you're in a position to take advantage of that situation

37:59

and you move quickly enough that you can take advantage of it. Yeah,

38:03

but, you know, it's one of those things that, you know, and again,

38:06

I'm said all these things that I'm saying, these are things that I've thought of.

38:09

So I'm not saying it like, you know, other people think that way,

38:11

but it's just one of those things you got to put in perspective.

38:14

You know, we're all, you know, generally smart. We're all generally good.

38:17

We're all generally, you know, want to do better for ourselves.

38:19

And so, you know, what makes you any better than, you know,

38:22

you know, the person person, actually. And and the answer to that question is your hard work and ethic is really

38:27

what makes you better, because that that is one factor that you have 100%

38:31

control over is how hard you work, how much you put into something,

38:35

your intelligence, you know, your ability like you can only

38:38

especially for an adult, you can only do so much, but your

38:42

your work ethic, you can really outwork a lot of people out there.

38:45

You know, if you really want to. Yeah, yeah. yeah.

38:49

That is something that you've got complete control over.

38:52

Yeah. And I didn't invent this phrase at all, but I always figure

38:57

that if I'm the smartest guy in the room, I'm in the wrong room.

39:00

Yeah, that's. A good that's, that's definitely a good point.

39:03

And, and, yeah, I mean, I think the intelligence thing to me,

39:07

I know a lot of people that I talk to feel feel differently,

39:11

but to me, intelligence is actually not something you can affect, right?

39:15

You can affect your knowledge, you can affect, you know,

39:19

you know, process, you can affect certain things. But intelligence to me is like processing power.

39:23

So you don't. I didn't I didn't get smarter as I got older.

39:27

I got more knowledge. Right? Right. And I got more experiences.

39:30

But my intelligence, you know, is what it is.

39:33

I just had, you know, when I was 18, I had the same brain.

39:37

It just I didn't have any knowledge to to process, you know, enough knowledge to

39:40

to base it off of. So I think that's why I kind of focus more on like, you know, I'm not saying

39:45

do the brain exercises or read and all that, but get the knowledge.

39:50

But, you know, I think sometimes people focus too much

39:52

and then they stress over things like, you know, this person's better at this.

39:55

Okay. Yeah, that's right. People are better than you at certain things. Okay, So that's great.

39:59

So I stressed out. Yeah. Don't focus on the things that you can't control.

40:02

Focus on. You know that person you know, got off work at seven.

40:06

You can work till ten. Yeah, you can control that.

40:09

Instead of stressing about why this person is better than you at something.

40:12

I watch, I watched an interview with Kobe Bryant, who talked about waking up

40:16

at 4:00 in the morning. And basically their long story short is he ended up with an extra

40:22

one or two extra practices per day

40:25

above his teammates. So absolutely basically said that he had twice the

40:31

the background that his teammates did By the time,

40:34

you know, at the same amount of time they had.

40:37

Right. Exactly. Mine. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.

40:39

I mean, if you look at like Shaquille O'Neal, you know, he would have been,

40:43

you know, he was obviously a great player, did some great things.

40:46

But he would have been that, you know, that

40:48

untouchable status if he had the same work ethic as as Kobe Bryant.

40:52

yeah. You know, Allen Iverson, like a bunch of these guys that I mean,

40:55

we're just talking about basketball now, but applies everywhere that you know,

40:59

people that, you know, Barry Sanders, you know, I personally like him a lot.

41:03

And, you know, I think he could have, you know,

41:06

put up obviously much better results and to a level where, you know, Emmitt

41:11

Smith or any of these guys couldn't touch him if he really wanted to. But

41:15

that's where it kind of goes back to. Is that all we you know, for me, I focus on what I can control.

41:20

And if I can't control it, I'm not saying and I'm not going to pretend

41:24

like I don't stress about it. It sucks. It hurts when you know somebody is better or somebody does things better.

41:29

But I try not to to dwell on that and focus more on things that I can control.

41:33

Yeah, that's awesome. So one last question for you

41:38

and that is what what is something that

41:41

so you haven't done yet that you're going to do soon?

41:47

So maybe learn to scuba dive?

41:49

Maybe it's I, I have no idea.

41:52

But I'm just I'm wondering if you're one of those people

41:54

that has this thing in their head that's just like, okay, this is the next thing I'm going to do.

41:58

Yeah, I don't think I have anything short term.

42:01

I think with this startups specifically, it takes up so much of my time.

42:05

I don't even have time to to plan on something like that.

42:08

I think long term, you know, down the line, I,

42:11

you know, I could definitely give you a couple of things that I'd like to do,

42:14

but in the short term, I just don't have the,

42:16

you know, the processing power, the definitely the time to to to kind of

42:20

to kind of consider it. But yeah, I mean for me, I you know, it really, really breaks my heart,

42:26

you know, when I see, you know, like specifically kids specific.

42:29

I'm not saying adults don't matter, but you know, when they're suffering.

42:33

And I think for me is, you know, being able to be in a position where I can do something effectively.

42:38

And when I say effectively, that doesn't mean like give them food

42:41

or give them short term shelter. I mean, like, you know,

42:43

permanently change kind of the situation or make sure that that doesn't happen.

42:47

So that would be something that I would that that that's something important to me.

42:51

And Hopefully, you know you know, soon in life I'll be in a position where I can,

42:55

you know, focus on that or work on some capacity at that level.

42:58

Amir, I mean, this has been a just a huge treat.

43:02

Thank you so much for joining me today.

43:05

Thank you for having me, Michael. It's definitely a pleasure speaking with you.

43:07

Likewise. I've been your host, Michael Dargie and this has been the RebelRebel

43:11

Podcast a podcasts for creative rebels and entrepreneurs all over the world.

43:15

And hey, if you're a rebel or you know, a rebel, why don't you head on over

43:18

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43:22

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43:26

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