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Hey friends, it's Kevin Pang from

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America's Test Kitchen. I want to

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savings will vary. Discounts not available in

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all states and situations. Deb,

1:11

can I tell you what my grilled cheese ritual is?

1:13

Yeah. I get the pan, I put it over

1:15

heat for, I let it heat

1:17

up while I'm preparing the grilled cheese. While

1:20

I'm putting the cheese in and while I'm slicing the bread and

1:22

everything. As soon as I put it

1:24

in the pan, I turn on the

1:26

George Michael and Elton John version of Don't Let the Sun

1:29

Go Down on me. And

1:31

then I flip it when Elton John comes in. Maybe

1:35

it's just like a Pavlovian thing, but that song,

1:37

I just associate it with the good grilled cheese.

1:40

The timing works like with November rain

1:42

also, if you flip it when the guitar solo

1:44

comes on. I'm

1:48

going to try it. For the full experience,

1:50

you need to have this soundtrack too. From

2:00

PRX's Radiotopia, this is the recipe with

2:03

Kenji and Deb. Where we

2:05

help you discover your own perfect recipes.

2:09

Kenji is the author of The Food Lab and The

2:11

Walk and A Columnist for The New York Times. And

2:13

Deb is the creator of Smitten Kitchen

2:15

and she's also the author of three

2:18

best-selling cookies. We're both professional home cooks, which

2:20

means we can and will make the same

2:22

dish 57 times in our quest for

2:24

the perfect recipe. And on this show we're going

2:26

to share our techniques and ingredients so that you

2:28

can figure out what works best for you. So

2:31

we're talking grilled cheese this week. Not

2:33

necessarily a follow-up to our tomato soup episode, but

2:35

grilled cheese doesn't have to be something that only

2:37

goes with tomato soup. Yeah, but you can't have tomato

2:39

soup without grilled cheese. That would be like a

2:42

crime. That's what's coming up on the recipe, so

2:44

stay with us. Have

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apply. Kenji, were you doing a little cooking before

4:21

you came on today? My

4:23

fingers are greasy with cheddar fat right now. Sounds

4:25

like it happened to me. Cheddar fat is a great

4:27

way to get rid of grease. Cheddar fat seems to

4:30

be more difficult to get off your fingers than just

4:32

plain butter, I find. I don't know. Interesting.

4:35

There must be some science there. I

4:37

don't think I can speak to it. I

4:39

can speak to the fact that when I make your

4:41

Frico grilled cheese sandwich, everything

4:43

gets greasier than with a normal grilled

4:45

cheese. You're welcome.

4:48

It's a gift. My

4:50

husband, when my daughter was little and she would make

4:52

a mess at the table, he would be like, may

4:54

I introduce you to Mr. Napkin? This is Mr. Napkin.

4:57

I'm having this moment where I'm looking at the table

4:59

and I'm like, let me tell you about

5:01

Mr. Napkin, Kenji. First

5:04

of all, let's talk about what recipes we made.

5:06

The recipe of yours that I made is your

5:08

Frico grilled cheese. I followed

5:10

this recipe very precisely to the point that

5:12

I pulled out a ruler to

5:15

make sure I was slicing my sourdough exactly a

5:17

half inch thick. I

5:19

pulled out the scale to make sure that I

5:21

had exactly two ounces of grated sharp

5:24

cheddar cheese and two tablespoons of butter. I

5:27

made it exactly the way you said it. The issue I

5:29

ran into, and I run into this every time

5:31

I make a grilled cheese on more

5:34

rustic sourdough bread, something with a bigger hole structure,

5:37

is that no matter how much cheese you put

5:40

into it in the middle, the

5:42

cheese just gets absorbed by the bread.

5:45

When you make it on white sandwich bread with

5:47

a denser crumb, you get that layer of cheese in the middle

5:49

and when you pull it apart, you

5:51

get that real gooey, oozy cheese pull. Whereas when

5:53

you make it with an airier sourdough with bigger

5:55

holes in it, all the

5:57

cheese kind of melds into it. much

6:00

cheese as you want and it kind of just becomes

6:02

one with the bread almost. I did say I think

6:04

that sandwich needs more cheese than I wanted it to

6:06

have. Like the day I wrote it, like these days

6:08

I would probably use it at least, probably a

6:10

little more. I mean two ounces is

6:12

like... That's the equivalent of four slices. Oh okay. So

6:15

they have a cup of like grated cheddar. That's not

6:17

really, that's not really a lot. I feel like you could

6:19

definitely put more in there. But

6:21

that was really all about the Frrico. Frrico

6:23

is a traditional dish which is potatoes

6:26

with melted cheese that gets sort of crisp

6:28

and it's basically used to use up old

6:30

rinds and parts of cheese. But

6:32

it's also referred to sort of these

6:34

crackers made solely of melted cheese and

6:36

you probably see these all over restaurants

6:39

and it's sort of taken on a life of its own.

6:41

But I love the idea of like taking

6:43

the best parts to me of grilled cheese

6:45

is the parts of the cheese that trickle

6:48

out of the sandwich and land in the

6:50

pan and get crispy and brown

6:52

and more flavorful. It's like the

6:54

brown butter of cheese. And

6:57

intentionally amping them up, putting extra in.

6:59

So that was the concept behind the

7:02

Frrico grilled cheese recipe.

7:04

And so you're spreading cheese into your flat pan,

7:06

into your cast iron pan, then you're putting the

7:08

sandwich into it and the cheese melts

7:10

and it leaves the layer of grease in the pan but

7:12

also when you peel it off and get it out, you

7:16

have that like sheets of cheese that protects

7:18

the outside of the bread and prevents... You

7:20

know like when you make a normal grilled cheese, the butter soaks into

7:22

the bread. When you make

7:25

a Frrico grilled cheese with cheese on the outside

7:27

and on the inside, the fat kind of glistens

7:29

and sits on that kind of sheath of cheese

7:32

and doesn't really penetrate. So it really gets on your fingers,

7:34

which is not necessarily a good or a

7:36

bad thing. It's just a comment that we

7:38

are recording this episode and I'm getting cheese

7:41

fat all over my laptop

7:43

and my desk and my pants. So

7:45

when we talk about grilled cheese sandwiches, you

7:48

know like the logistics of it, do you think that

7:50

there's like one type of bread that's best for it?

7:53

This is a good question. If I'm in

7:55

the mood for a classic grilled cheese, which

7:57

is like you know white sandwich bread,

7:59

sliced sandwich bread from the supermarket, maybe American

8:01

cheese, maybe like maybe cheddar, maybe a combination of

8:03

the two in there. I would say

8:06

there isn't an ideal bread, but there is an

8:08

ideal bread given every mood

8:10

and situation. And for the

8:12

most part, if I'm in the mood for grilled

8:14

cheese, I want it on sliced sandwich bread or

8:16

shokupan, that would be sort of the one I

8:18

turn to most. So you like it, which just

8:20

usually has a little bit of sweetness to it. Like

8:22

shokupan is a slight sweetness, I would

8:24

say less than like standard American supermarket

8:26

sandwich bread though, which can be very

8:28

sweet. But shokupan for me, it's more

8:31

about the texture. It's like a thing

8:33

I grew up with. My grandmother always

8:35

got thick sliced shokupan from the Japanese

8:37

bakery. And so that kind of extra,

8:39

I don't know what the texture is. It's

8:41

a little bit firmer than sandwich bread, but it's

8:43

also simultaneously kind of fluffier and certainly sort of

8:45

more full in flavor than

8:47

a supermarket sandwich bread. I think out

8:50

here we have orowit and on

8:52

the East coast it's called, what's it called? Arnold. Arnold

8:55

and orowit. Yeah, Arnold is definitely the one we have.

8:57

If we're buying a sandwich one, it'll be, you know,

9:00

shelf life is the goal. Look at that.

9:02

Or we'll get a Pepperidge

9:04

Farm countrywide or whatever. But there

9:06

are a couple bakeries here where I've bought a

9:09

good white sandwich

9:11

bread that had sourdough in it.

9:13

It's not whole grain. It's

9:15

not really a tough bread. It just has like a

9:17

little more nuance to it. And I have really enjoyed

9:19

it. But that's not like a standard grocery store thing.

9:22

So it's not necessarily applicable

9:24

to everything. But this is not to me like

9:26

it's heavier than a supermarket,

9:28

you know, plastic bag one, but not

9:30

heavy and dense, like a like

9:33

a meat sure, like a whole grain sourdough. Right,

9:35

right, right. I want to jump back to your

9:37

Frico grilled cheese. I wish to register a complaint.

9:40

Complain? Is it that you don't have any napkins? It's

9:43

partly that I don't have any napkins. It's but it's

9:45

also that I don't like

9:47

Frico grilled cheese. I know I

9:49

have a recipe for it in my book. I know I have

9:51

a recipe for it on Serious Eats. I know it's a

9:53

thing and people see it and it's like, oh yes, how could

9:56

it not be better when there's extra cheese on the outside? I

9:58

don't think the extra cheese on the outside. outside

10:00

actually adds to the grilled cheese experience.

10:02

But for me, it takes away from

10:04

the buttery bread. And

10:06

so the sandwich becomes kind of unbalanced. And

10:08

for me, a grilled cheese, it's the

10:10

cooked flavor of the cheese that suddenly

10:13

transports me to a different dish. And

10:16

so for me, it's like it loses the familiarity and

10:18

the comfort when you do that. And

10:20

I can understand why people like it, but every time

10:22

I've done it, I've come away thinking, I

10:25

wish I hadn't done that. So you don't

10:27

like the free cure on the outside and that

10:29

is fine because we respect all opinions here, even

10:31

the wrong ones. But how would you feel if

10:33

the couple, you did a couple little Frico petal

10:35

crisps and then you put them inside your grilled

10:37

cheese sandwich before you cooked it? Is that just

10:39

still weird? Like think of it, it's

10:41

like the potato chips inside a sandwich of

10:43

grilled cheese. I think I'd have

10:46

to be mentally prepared for it. It's

10:48

also, you know, Frico is one of those things also where when

10:51

it first comes out of the pan, Frico is kind of pliable

10:53

the way like a tweal is, you know, like an almond tweal,

10:55

for example, like it's still a little pliable. And when you bite

10:57

into it, then it's kind of chewy, right?

10:59

Yeah, no, that's not very moment. It has to kind of cool

11:01

to turn crisp. So I'm

11:03

worried that if you stick it in the middle, yeah,

11:05

it'll end up chewy and pull out and like give you

11:08

like a layer of toughness in the center of the sandwich

11:10

as opposed to a layer of crispness. What just happened

11:12

there? Christmas. Okay,

11:15

I see. There's no right and wrong. I

11:17

think people, everybody wants it to be a

11:19

competition of right and wrong. And especially, and we've

11:21

talked about this, like the spirit of the show is

11:23

that like, we're excited by all things. And, you know,

11:25

we can joke that each other are wrong. But like,

11:27

I think it's fun to talk about this stuff. Not

11:29

everybody has to agree on one

11:31

type of grilled cheese being the er grilled cheese.

11:34

Plus, I also have like five grilled cheese recipes

11:36

on my site and they each do something different.

11:40

Kenty, your serious eats grilled cheese

11:42

sandwich, which is very classic and

11:44

it uses butter. Hardy

11:47

white bread, you say, such as a

11:49

Pepperidge farm or Arnold, and then you

11:51

use two to four slices of American

11:53

cheddar or Jack cheese. But the thing

11:55

that's cool about your sandwich is that

11:57

it is extra buttery. because

12:00

first we're going to brown your

12:02

two pieces of bread in butter, and

12:04

I love that you salt the pan

12:06

too, which is like such a nice

12:08

little extra on the bread. I

12:10

actually do that when I roast vegetables, partly out

12:12

of laziness, like if I'm tossing a bunch of

12:14

vegetables with olive oil, I don't wanna do it

12:17

in a bowl. So what I usually do is

12:19

I coat a baking sheet with olive oil or

12:21

whatever oil I'm gonna roast, and then I sprinkle

12:23

it with salt and pepper, and then I toss

12:25

the vegetables on there, and I feel like I

12:27

just get more seasoning. I do it in

12:29

the frying pan because generally, I'm one of those people

12:31

that generally doesn't keep salted butter at home, and so

12:33

most of the recipes when I call for butter, I'm

12:36

using unsalted butter, but I find that

12:38

part of the essential flavor of a grilled cheese is

12:40

that kind of salty buttery crust, that part where your

12:42

tongue first hits, it's the salty crust. With

12:45

unsalted butter, it just doesn't taste quite right, so

12:47

I usually like to melt the butter

12:49

in the pan, and then salt the

12:51

pan so that the bread kind of absorbs it

12:53

as it's cooking. And I would say I don't

12:55

find that most commercial salted butter is actually

12:57

that salty. And I'm also thinking if

12:59

you're buying a commercial sliced sandwich

13:02

bread, usually it's a little bit

13:04

sweeter, and so I think the salt would always be

13:06

welcome. Anyway, I'm gonna be doing that for now on.

13:08

I love the idea of salting the pan. I'm gonna

13:10

do it when it's olive oil too, because pretty much

13:12

if I'm frying something, I also want a salty crisp

13:14

on it too. My friend Adam Kuban,

13:16

who was the managing editor at Sirius Eats,

13:18

he founded a site called Slice and a

13:20

site called Hamburger Today. Back to back, probably

13:22

around the same time that Smishing Kiddy was

13:24

founded, yeah. But his grilled

13:27

cheese recipe, his trick was to

13:29

grill the bread and butter first,

13:31

and then that becomes the inside of the

13:33

sandwich. You're toasted on the inside, then

13:36

you assemble the sandwich, and then you grill it again

13:38

on the outside. It's like a double

13:40

butter crisp sandwich. It was so good. And

13:42

then you do the outside, and then you're

13:44

also frying it in butter, and it's just

13:46

an absolutely, it was really lovely. I'm a

13:48

butterhead. I was just in Paris where

13:50

we ate butter every day and pretty much everything, so

13:52

it made me very happy. I liked it a lot.

13:57

to be a distinct pocket of

13:59

melted gooeyness. In between the bread and

14:01

so it's growing the inside of the bread am

14:03

creates a little bit of a barrier a sap

14:05

barriers to that. The cheese doesn't soak into the

14:07

bread too much as he get that really really

14:09

nice cheese posts are minerals of course gives a

14:11

set of a jumpstart a melting that the yeah

14:14

the inside of the sandwiches warm when you assemble

14:16

it. Accept. That from Am to Ban

14:18

and I am forever grateful to him for his. Cell

14:20

the best sees I B S like

14:22

American cheese is the classic. I actually

14:24

think that what we know is. Grilled

14:26

cheese in America comes from the

14:28

fact that we have packaged American

14:31

sees it's an ancient this in

14:33

some form another but the modern

14:35

form that we know it and

14:37

arose around the same time that

14:39

craft cheese like government seems Frost

14:41

the ugly American prophecies was invented.

14:43

Yeah. Nineteenth Hands is what I read

14:45

for the patents on that. And then

14:47

in the nineteen twenties you had the

14:50

first commercial sandwich slicer. See, But this

14:52

two things together and you have Er

14:54

episodes today. So American she says the

14:56

classic I think it's it gets really

14:58

bad rap. I mean if you talk

15:00

to anyone who's like serious. About food there

15:02

can. It's how you like point blank poly they don't

15:04

buy it or. They don't either. Definitely into

15:06

this not real says that I know all

15:08

of those things, but I think we could

15:10

respects and melt here. Yeah, I so

15:12

I am serious about food and I

15:14

have deep respect and love for American

15:17

cheese. South American sees his nazis in

15:19

the same way that sausage is not

15:21

meet rates. American cheese is like is

15:23

sees with a couple of other things

15:25

added to justice: texture. In. The

15:28

same way that sausage is meet with a

15:30

couple of other ingredients added to adjust it's

15:32

texture and flavor. Likes American, she starts with

15:34

cheese. Is it she's

15:36

product? It is a cheese product. yeah is

15:38

mostly cheese on it, has added milk and

15:40

added milk proteins and then it usually has

15:43

a while. Always has some kind of emulsifier.

15:45

So it's what makes American cheese melts. It's

15:47

what makes American cheese for some people have

15:49

a sort of plastic eats texture. My serious,

15:51

just that it's basically poured and some sort

15:54

of liquid state. Add to these onto a giant

15:56

piece of plastic and then I'm be seen this path

15:58

that yeah it's not like seats like. Flat square

16:00

and then wrap. Yourself Malik singles Yeah Thing

16:02

I like is your employer can tell by the

16:05

look of it said it's shaped by the plastic

16:07

and now. I'd need to see it.

16:09

I have to watch a half ads. I want

16:11

to see how my American seizes mates. We have

16:13

a recipe. a serious eats for making your own American

16:15

cheese. You can use whatever sort of bases you want

16:17

to could be cheddar to be career whatever you want

16:19

arm and you add a little bit of liquid to

16:22

it and then you had sodium citrate which is sort

16:24

of the most widely available emulsifier salts and you you

16:26

blenders up to meld them and then use he spread

16:28

plastic over see tree and then you basically poor this

16:30

one looks like you're like a matter tease us over

16:32

it and then just let it set and then you

16:35

can cut it into squares in the squares can be

16:37

so wrapped in plastic and stacked if you want like

16:39

a single or you can use immediately but it's it's

16:41

a way that you can take any. Cheese and turn

16:43

it into something that will melt the way American

16:45

cheese doesn't Sodium citrate disease like you can buy

16:48

it online and sends his teeth are said you

16:50

had a drive in a lesser ever Have you

16:52

ever want to make like. A. Good. She's

16:54

not a cheese sauce or make your own American

16:56

style cheese. American processes. You can do that

16:58

at home. This is pretty easily. did you make

17:01

girls? He is. That. When. When you

17:03

guys are developing their assets? oh sure? Sure yeah.

17:05

we used in grilled cheese, we didn't in hamburgers.

17:07

Reason? And. Now kinds of stuff yes

17:09

and it's nice because you going to just a flavored

17:11

use you can change the liquid base as you can

17:14

do just plain water you can do mills you could

17:16

do something like wine and even simmer wine would down

17:18

with herbs and and garlic and black pepper it's infused

17:20

into the into the cheesy or whatever whatever flavors you

17:22

want to can have their if you want to or

17:25

even the pure. I what I

17:27

do at home. When I make my grilled cheese

17:29

I will. Pretty. Much always use

17:31

one slice of American. Ah,

17:34

And then combine it with other. Sort.

17:36

Of more flavorful cheeses are

17:38

combine. A. Slice of American with some

17:40

sharp cheddar that I cut off a block.

17:42

or with like, slices of Swiss? A slice

17:44

of grew. Yeah, something like that. Because it's

17:47

even just one slice of American. There's enough

17:49

emulsifier power in there that it will get

17:51

the other cheeses. To. Melt there will be

17:53

like come with me about with me that met with me and

17:55

it'll get the other Jesus to melt along with his. Whole. Them

17:57

into the saw. It does exactly.

18:00

I do that You actually when I make it at home

18:02

these days of the way I reminisce a sweet you a

18:04

slice of American season I do announcer two have his. I

18:06

usually do a great. At our it's cheddar just so

18:08

it's hello. It looks about. The same spot. It's a

18:10

nicer quality one so it has like a nice sharpness

18:12

to at but I could see. How other Jesus

18:15

would work nicely Town so you're you're

18:17

a greater another slicer. A. Much

18:19

greater. I. Want to lose sped

18:21

the fall over? I feel like

18:23

I can spread it better. I.

18:26

Feel like I can get better ads? dad's

18:28

coverage and I can see distributed better pigs

18:31

often. The slice of American cheese does is

18:33

smaller than the bread right? so I will

18:35

have why am I telling the world does

18:37

I will like break it into for strips

18:39

and I'll just kind of spread it out

18:41

down the length of the bread. So and

18:43

then I'll put the grated cheese over. That

18:45

got it. If I don't have full coverage with

18:48

one slice or what I'll do without a put

18:50

a slice. Of. Of the seas sort

18:52

of on the middle of the bribes whatever bits are hanging

18:54

over the edge of the bread. I break those off and

18:56

then I kind of tetris them into a position to fill

18:58

up any holes and are on the other edges of the

19:01

Brits are I try and break my she's of into the

19:03

shape that will give coverage is a promise you don't have

19:05

with grated cheese but I'm too lazy to pull out a

19:07

box greater when I'm hundred and. Seventy six

19:10

slots takes. Lots of whatever. any kind

19:12

of greater I don't like leading graders. I

19:14

love this. I love the fact that we were going to

19:16

like be other. Drive home and like here, a

19:18

psychedelic the correct way, the stress a slice.

19:20

Of like a square over rectangular piece of

19:22

bread that makes me very happy that I

19:24

guess it's called it's my job. is

19:35

it happened to blend and whatever makes you happy

19:37

it's we talked about frying and butter which i

19:39

think is the most classic but i do the

19:41

mayor said he do a man is sit at

19:44

first so perfect i know a lot of humor

19:46

and say of i hate mail ins it doesn't

19:48

taste like mail it basically you can spend it's

19:50

very suddenly on the outside of the bread before

19:52

you brown and it gives you a little bit

19:54

more flight risk a little more tang to it

19:56

does not taste like mail but it just gives

19:58

you that perfect season brown crisp. It's got a

20:00

little more flavor. You don't need to add salt to the

20:03

pan. So the idea is you spread mayonnaise on

20:05

the outside of your sandwich and then you fry it just

20:07

like that instead of spreading butter or instead of putting butter

20:09

in the pan. It doesn't taste like butter so

20:11

that's just a personal preference but I find it

20:13

very easy. It's nice that the

20:15

mayo spreads so easily onto the bread and so you

20:17

can get really nice even coverage. It

20:20

browns really nicely. You do get a little bit

20:22

of that tang. I will say stick with

20:24

either homemade mayo or with something like you know

20:26

almonds or crafter, best foods. Did you

20:28

know Josh Ozersky? Yeah, not well but

20:31

I knew his work. He passed away in 2015 but

20:33

he was a James

20:35

Beard award-winning food writer and I remember

20:37

I specifically had this email exchange with him

20:40

about grilled cheese and we were debating whether

20:42

you put the butter in the pan.

20:44

So what I do is I put

20:46

the butter in the pan, I swirl it around, I

20:48

let it melt, I put my sandwich in there and

20:50

then I kind of swirl the sandwich around to mop

20:52

up that butter and then when I flip it I

20:54

put more butter in the pan and do the same

20:56

thing for the other side. What Josh was insisting was

20:58

that you need softened room temperature butter that you spread

21:00

over the bread before you put it into the pan

21:03

and that you get a different result by doing that.

21:05

You get better coverage. The issue I had is that

21:07

I don't have room temperature butter. Like I've tried keeping

21:09

butter in a buttered bell and for whatever reason you

21:11

know maybe it's because my house is dirty. It always

21:13

like... Did it get moldy? It doesn't

21:15

get moldy but it gets like a kind of cheesy smell to it. So

21:18

I just keep my butter in the fridge and so

21:20

I never have softened butter and Josh's response was well

21:23

that's why God invented the microwave. But just like I

21:25

don't have the patience to pull out a box grater

21:27

when I'm making a grilled cheese, I also don't have

21:29

the patience to microwave butter. I'm actually team

21:31

Azersky on this but I'm also team

21:33

Kenji because I agree.

21:35

I actually I would say my first choice is

21:38

to spread it on the outside but that does

21:40

require that I took a tablespoon or two of

21:42

butter out a little while ago and it's at

21:44

room temperature. Realistically I'm putting it in the pan

21:46

but I do really like the effect of just

21:48

having it really nicely. I feel like it's just

21:51

very evenly applied on the bread and it makes

21:53

a nice surface contact which gives you...

21:55

I'm convinced it gives you more even browning but that has

21:57

to do with like how the bread is sliced and the

21:59

shape of the pan too. In the times that

22:01

I have done it, and I did it for

22:03

your recipe because your recipe specifically calls for spreading

22:06

butter on the outside. So I went and figured

22:08

out how to set my microwave to 40% power,

22:10

which is a task in itself, so that I

22:12

could get softened butter and I did it. And

22:14

I did feel like the act of spreading softened

22:17

butter on the outside of a sandwich before putting

22:19

it into a hot pan

22:21

and hearing that sizzle as it goes into

22:23

a hot pan is it does add to

22:26

the overall grilled cheese experience, you know, the

22:28

GCE. It adds to

22:32

the mood. Is this a good time to

22:34

tell you that I actually, although that s not how that recipe

22:36

is written, these days what I m making on a

22:38

weekday night, I actually start in a cold pan. So

22:40

for that it requires either the softened butter on the

22:42

outside or the mayo. So I m using the mayo more

22:44

often, but I put it in a cold pan. And I

22:46

like that because it gives it a chance to first like,

22:49

I feel like it gets, it gives it a nice chance

22:52

to get melty in the center and bring it up to

22:54

a nice crisp on the outside. I also start things like

22:56

bacon in a cold pan because I try to kind of

22:58

render out the fat, but also get a nice crisp. There

23:01

s nothing worse than a grilled cheese sandwich that is cooked

23:03

on the outside, but then the center of the cheese is

23:05

unmelt. I ve seen people suggest you put a

23:07

lid on the pan to kind of steam it in, but I feel

23:09

like that would mess with the bread crisp a little bit and that

23:11

s not okay. I ve seen people say microwave

23:13

it. I ve tried that. Like, you microwave it to melt the

23:15

cheese and then you grill it. That works

23:18

not so well because it messes with the texture of

23:20

the bread. I ve tried doing it sort

23:22

of the dumpling method where you fry it

23:24

on one side, then you add a little bit of water

23:26

to get it steamy and then you put a lid on

23:28

and then you let that water evaporate off and then re-crisp

23:30

it. That doesn t work too well. It also messes with

23:32

the texture of the bread. I don t think there s

23:35

any way around the fact that grilled cheese,

23:37

when you do it properly, if you want the ideal texture,

23:39

it just takes time. You can t, you can

23:41

t rush it. That s why I do the cold

23:44

pan though. It really does work though. It really, I m not

23:46

cooking it on high or anything like that. I m cooking it

23:48

on medium or on my stove. It s really like a medium

23:50

low because my stove is too robust.

23:52

I set mine at four. But you re

23:54

basically just cooking it. It might take a few

23:56

minutes until you get a nice, even golden brown

23:58

underneath. Then you flip it. the second side can

24:01

go a little faster because you've already

24:03

got the center warmed up. So

24:06

don't let the sun go down on this episode.

24:08

We will be back after a short break and

24:10

we are going to talk about all the things

24:12

you can put in your grilled cheese sandwich, all

24:14

the things you can dip your grilled cheese sandwich

24:17

in and we're also going to talk about why

24:19

everybody but me is wrong

24:21

about the way they cut sandwiches. That's

24:25

coming up on the recipe. Kenji,

24:42

have you ever put pickles in your grilled cheese

24:44

before? Yes, I have put pickles in

24:46

my grilled cheese. Pickles and onions. I

24:48

like to do it almost, I think of it almost like a

24:50

patty melt without the patty. Ooh, so

24:53

wait for a patty melt the onions, are they raw

24:55

or are they griddled or is it your choice? They're

24:57

griddled. They're caramelized but you griddle them. I

25:00

would start with the onions in the pan and

25:02

then I would slap my bread on top of

25:04

it, flip it out, put the cheese on top,

25:06

assemble the sandwich and then grill it like that. I've

25:08

done onions in my

25:10

first book I have a recipe for like a kind of, I

25:12

don't want to say bougie but it's not really, but it was

25:15

basically like my comfort food, a little bit

25:17

fussy grilled cheese sandwich and it's on a dry

25:19

bread and I use a baby Swiss cheese like

25:21

an Emmentella or whatever and then or I think

25:24

I used Gruyere but you could and then it

25:26

uses these sweet and sour red onions and I

25:28

love that because I feel like you want a

25:30

little bit of that bite, that vinegar. So I'm

25:32

using some vinegar and a little bit of sugar

25:34

to cook down some red onions. I've salted in

25:36

butter and I love this sort of jammy

25:39

onion layer where you get the acidity, you get a

25:41

little sweetness and you get that flavor. I love that

25:43

as a contrast for the cheese. That sounds

25:45

great. How are you making those onions? I

25:48

probably sauteed them in a little bit of butter With

25:51

salt, maybe a pinch of sugar, maybe a pinch

25:53

of brown sugar. And as they cook down, I'm

25:55

going to add a little bit of either balsamic

25:57

or sherry vinegar or red wine vinegar to the

25:59

pan. and really kind of cook that out so

26:01

it's not a sin, agree, But it gets it

26:03

really sweet and and just kind of finish it

26:05

up with can seize and eggs and then you

26:07

let it cool little bit and I've I love

26:09

that inside grilled cheese sandwiches. I like that more

26:11

of the. Sunk. He or she is again that

26:13

he right right in easy. Jennifer. How

26:16

do you feel about kimchi and your grilled cheese?

26:18

I haven't had a but I think I would like.

26:20

Is virtually I in his truck in L A

26:22

that he popularized the Can See case of beer

26:24

and I think it's sort of evolved from that

26:26

people done it for while the thing I like

26:28

to do and I'm a going to come see

26:31

grilled cheese is drain some of the kimchi brian

26:33

ya at the red brine out of the derived

26:35

from see and combine that with butter. I.

26:37

In a skillet. You basically put butter and

26:40

a little bit of tim seduced in a skillet than you put

26:42

your bread in there and a kind of soaks up a little

26:44

bit the kims you see every a little patience to the have

26:46

to wait for that comes you just have them. Evaporate,

26:49

off the liquid from a to evaporate off on but

26:51

what happens is it in a kind of in views

26:53

the bread it turns the bread read. And

26:55

that a caramelized as a little bit arm and if

26:57

you're patient with it any, keep swirling the bread or

26:59

under the cooks. it'll still crisp up the same way

27:01

that it would if you're making a regular good she's

27:04

I'm if you really want to go out, you can

27:06

saute it separately and butter and and mix that with

27:08

the cheese and butter inside the sandwiches. Well. Do.

27:10

You like things inside your girl. She cemetery

27:12

prefer it as a death on the outside.

27:14

So sometimes I like just a classic grilled cheese.

27:16

I do like putting stuff inside and I end

27:18

up by where I am. Firmly.

27:21

Of the mind that adding something other than

27:23

she's to the centipede grilled cheese does not

27:25

automatically make it into melt are. There people

27:27

who disagree with you. As yes, yes,

27:30

there's this like one of the most

27:32

annoying copy pasta as of yet. You're

27:34

familiar with what copy passes as like

27:36

an internet term for. Somebody. Makes

27:38

a joke and then copy pasta his when like

27:40

the joke is just like copied and repeated like

27:42

a meme. You. Know and and so

27:45

there's is very same as copy pasta.

27:47

I'm from their grilled cheese sub reddit.

27:49

From some nine years ago where

27:51

this guy went on a like

27:53

a multi paragraph read about how

27:56

if you add anything. To

27:58

the inside of a grilled cheese it is. No longer

28:00

grilled cheese and it is now a

28:02

Melts And let me read you some

28:05

excerpts from except I need to hear

28:07

it. So obviously the opening paragraph which

28:09

is a girl she's consists of only

28:11

the following items: sees: Bread. With

28:13

spread usually butter. This. Entire sub

28:16

Reddit consists of melts. Almost Every single grilled

28:18

cheese sandwich I see on here has other

28:20

items added to it. The fact is this

28:22

sub or it is called grilled cheese is

28:25

nothing short of utter blasphemy. Let

28:27

me start by saying that I have nothing against

28:29

Melts. I just hate their association with sandwiches that

28:31

are not grilled cheeses. Goes. On

28:33

and on and odds he curses a lot. I'm

28:35

not going because I'm here are very says. I

28:37

am not a religious man, nor am I anything

28:40

close to call in every expert, but as a

28:42

bland white Midwestern mail, I'm honestly the most passionate

28:44

person when it comes to grilled cheese and mac

28:46

and cheese. All of you foodie, stay the hell

28:48

away from our grilled cheese and stop associating. Your

28:50

sandwich melts with them Yet again. it is utter

28:53

blasphemy and it. Rocks. Me to the

28:55

core of my pale being. You got them heretic,

28:57

respected grilled cheese and stop changing it into whatever

28:59

you like and lover for what it is or

29:01

make your damn melts and call it for what

29:04

it is a melts. Oh. My God.

29:06

I love Him. So first of all I

29:08

want to point out of these pieces of evidence against

29:10

this is he go to a diner and you ask

29:12

for grilled cheese? With. A slice of

29:14

tomato or with some slices of bacon like

29:16

those are very clearly com and grilled cheese

29:18

additions or agents and those are very still

29:20

very clearly Grilled Cheese Sandwiches Like a don't

29:22

think there's anybody who knows grilled cheese better

29:24

than a short order cook at a diner.

29:27

and if they're calling a grilled cheese sandwiches

29:29

slices of bacon added intuit a grilled cheese.

29:31

I think it's fair to say that is

29:33

so agreed to a grilled cheese in the

29:35

same way that I feel like adding some

29:37

chopped him Seater grilled cheese doesn't make it

29:39

into melts. Me A Melts is like. A

29:41

melt is a more strictly defined thing than a grilled cheese. A

29:43

grilled cheese you can have whatever you want and as long as

29:45

the t the so the main elements of it. Is. Still

29:48

a grilled cheese whereas a melted like you're specifically taking

29:50

something else that's going to be the main element and

29:52

you're adding some. she's to it and you're cooking at

29:54

the way you work and a griddle the where you

29:56

would a grilled cheese. when i felt that i was

29:58

like my first thought is as Tuna melt open-faced. It's

30:01

like tuna melt or ... Tuna melt, but not a patty

30:03

melt. A patty melt is a little bit ... Okay, but I feel like

30:05

tuna melts were popular. Those

30:07

are fighting words. But I've done a lot

30:10

of melts. I've done mushroom melts and I've

30:12

done broccoli. I

30:14

have a broccoli melt on my site and it went

30:16

away with books and it's really funny. You basically made

30:18

this ... Anyway, but

30:20

I always think of melt as an open-faced

30:23

thing. Aside from a patty melt, I think of

30:25

it as open-faced. I have never

30:27

heard of a grilled cheese

30:29

sandwich with stuff inside of it called

30:31

a melt outside of this rant, which

30:33

I'm honestly charmed by because I like

30:35

people with strong opinions on food. I

30:39

wouldn't mind, depending on the kind of cheese and

30:41

the mood I was in, I wouldn't

30:43

mind a thin schmear of a sharp Dijon.

30:47

I love pickles, but

30:49

I don't really like hot

30:51

pickles. You're

30:53

not a fan of a media nachos, of

30:56

a Cuban sandwich. I didn't say

30:58

I wouldn't enjoy it. I just mean that if

31:00

I was choosing it, I think that the pickle

31:03

pickles better on the side. It should

31:05

be cold and crisp and a contrast.

31:08

If it's hot and burnt and cheese, you

31:11

lose acidity when you cook things. I can't

31:13

explain the science behind it. My name isn't

31:15

Kenji. When acidic things

31:17

get warm, they get muted. If you cover

31:19

it with fat and oils and cheese, it's

31:21

not going to have the same bite to

31:23

it because you want the pickle to taste

31:25

like a pickle, but it's not necessarily tasting

31:28

like it's tasting like a vinegared vegetable

31:30

by then. Someone suggested to me

31:32

that you dip your grilled cheese into pickle

31:34

brine as you're eating it and you

31:36

have to do it quickly. You dip it and then immediately

31:38

bite it so that it's still crispy, but you get that

31:40

briny hit right as

31:43

you're eating it. I would do that. I

31:45

think almost everything needs vinegar. There's a sandwich

31:47

shop in Seattle. It started out as a

31:49

truck. It's called Layers. Now they have a

31:51

brick and mortar location. One of their signature

31:53

sandwiches is a

31:55

grilled cheese with dates And

31:58

sliced jalapenos in it. And. It is

32:00

fabulous. I think it's a really good combination.

32:03

That. Didn't to ask people on the

32:05

internet. What they like to

32:07

depth their sandwiches. And the girl. She only has.

32:09

It's humid of freedom and you give me a one

32:11

verdict, one word reaction to each. Yes, we are

32:14

to. This is how long I can stick to buy

32:16

So. Yeah, my young role that I have some associate

32:18

in both. Instances Assists stays

32:20

shut. Down Okay here we go. Ready. What?

32:23

Was already them pickled I'm

32:25

proud. Mango chutney Prout hot

32:27

sauce. Gas Personally I feel

32:29

like bacillus also be even better been.

32:31

Hot sauce can be good. Okay here's

32:33

a specific ones: Ghost Pepper Hot Sauce

32:35

mixed into Barry Jam. I

32:37

think it would be good for somebody. Else

32:41

assess assess touch ups. I could do it. Have

32:43

a sir are to catch up. I'm not a

32:46

big fan of the have a list of the

32:48

hot Pythons sir are so you know that. The

32:50

recipients Roger and Central I'm I'm just not a

32:52

big fan of it. Other years ago she's dipper.

32:55

Applesauce. You. Know stem from

32:58

a long line of people who loves. Apple

33:00

with their lot cause they're potato pancakes

33:02

and that doesn't bother. Me at all. but. For

33:05

me it's a stretch, but I want everybody

33:07

to be happy is so you see that

33:09

makes you happy. If it's it's. It and I

33:11

was the first one I heard was I was. It was

33:13

kind of like represent a little bit of a gag. But

33:17

they're so down. Vote button. Like. These

33:19

can only say you like you can't say you

33:21

dislike. It so I think it's key. You

33:23

know ice is is sounds gross to me

33:25

is because I have these traumatic memories of

33:28

childhood when my mom would pack lunches with

33:30

applesauce mixed with cottage cheese oh to Spawn

33:32

Revolting Arm and she would put that is

33:34

my lunch maybe once a week. And so

33:37

the idea of mixing apple sauce and cheese

33:39

to me is just like an immediate. Got

33:42

level. Deep seated

33:44

reaction that I can't stay

33:46

kids to suppress. And

33:49

I'm sorry, that's not that hard

33:51

to assess. assess Er right? Hp

33:53

Sauce: A familiar Hp sauce. Ah,

33:56

It's is that like the brown? the Uk brown

33:58

sauce. Yeah, brown sauce is how like. Then agree,

34:00

it's not quite like what does your sauce.

34:02

It's a little more vinegary and sicker. But.

34:05

It's got at the texture thin catch up

34:07

but it's brown. I feel like

34:09

if I had that kind of whole grainy

34:12

brad and then a nice sick of Dijon

34:14

and a good. Like sharp English setter. I would

34:16

like it. I. Wouldn't he that? Have

34:19

a servant never eaten and so. I've. Got

34:21

a reaction or my own React citizens or want to

34:23

hear yours. French

34:25

Dip his you you know said like like

34:27

powdered obese boy on are like French onion

34:29

Billie on. I. Need for

34:31

that one. It's be more like a. French

34:34

onion grilled. she is like i want tireless audience

34:36

in there are like the brown onions like. I

34:38

needed to be more of a well rounded a

34:40

It to me I'm not take shrink. White bread

34:43

with craft she is for that was that was

34:45

the you feel bus ex ante I feel the

34:47

same those to my initial reaction is that sounds

34:49

awesome because I love french different I like dipping

34:51

bread into into beefy brought on by yes I'm

34:53

hundred percent agree with in agreement with you on

34:55

that. This is one that requires a hearty or

34:57

bread and a hearty or cheese like a swiss

35:00

cheese or more like and he's good at something

35:02

or with a little more flavor. Here's.

35:04

One k so depth site me.

35:06

See. Her defender cheese entities.

35:09

The Iris. I respect it. Or and here's

35:11

here's the last one. Bloody.

35:13

Mary Mix. It's. Not for

35:15

me. I haven't tried most of these

35:17

things. We should trial these ah and on video

35:20

and maybe do it together. Thousand as a when,

35:22

we take our show on the road and we

35:24

do. Live episodes because he was he saying

35:26

Kenji Did anyone suggesting series seven years old?

35:29

She is because I heard on the internet

35:31

for that is a very good thing. Separating

35:33

the girl d is somehow goes viral on

35:35

you tube. My my most popular youtube

35:38

video of all time which has how

35:40

many the sort fourteen million views is

35:42

a two minute long video where I

35:44

made a i made a grilled sees

35:46

a late at night when I came

35:48

home drunk of from a karaoke bar.

35:51

I strapped to camera to my forehead

35:53

and I made a. a grilled

35:55

cheese sandwiches on sourdough with my friends sourdough of

35:57

from from box house about bakery in san mateo

36:00

sourdough bread, I put grated cheddar cheese that I mixed with

36:02

some cilantro and then what I did was... You took out

36:04

a grater? I did, you know what it is, I probably

36:07

just come from singing don't let the sun go down on

36:09

me. So

36:11

I was in the mood for grilled cheese. I grated

36:13

grilled cheese and then I kept a stick of chorizo

36:15

in my freezer. Spanish cured chorizo

36:17

which is meant to be eaten raw

36:20

the same way salami or pepperoni is.

36:22

Sometimes I like to grate chorizo,

36:24

I also do this with pepperoni. I keep a stick of pepperoni,

36:26

a stick of chorizo in my freezer

36:29

because I like to grate it on a box grater and

36:31

it's good like over pasta something like anytime any place where

36:33

you would grate cheese, you can grate a

36:35

stick of pepperoni or chorizo and it comes out in these

36:38

like tiny little bits that melt into it. For

36:40

some reason I don't know if it's the vibe of

36:42

the video or the specific sandwich itself but people seem

36:44

to love it. That's the one and only time I've

36:46

ever made that sandwich. So

36:48

Deb, tell me about how you cut

36:50

your grilled cheese. You've got a square in

36:52

front of you, roughly a square in front of you. In

36:54

what orientation do you hold your knife as you push it

36:56

through the sandwich? I am cutting

36:58

it horizontal. I should make clear that that's

37:01

not really a square, like loaves are

37:03

a little more vertical than they're horizontal. You

37:06

end up with two rectangles. I end

37:08

up with two rectangles and to me this

37:10

feels correct. I made

37:12

a video demo of a classic cream of

37:14

tomato soup, the one on my site that's

37:16

adapted from Cooks Illustrated. It was

37:19

September, it was seasonal, it was the first

37:21

day with a cool crisp in the air.

37:23

To me this is peak tomato soup and

37:25

grilled cheese season. So I made a video

37:27

with it and the very end I

37:30

just I've made dinner for my family

37:32

and I cut four grilled cheese sandwiches

37:34

in half and I

37:37

got some comments about it.

37:39

It started with how can

37:42

you cut a sandwich that way and then

37:44

you're supposed to cut a grilled cheese sandwich

37:46

on the diagonal and then this

37:48

looks amazing but my brain screamed when you

37:51

cut the sandwich that you're doing it wrong.

37:53

And This was an amazing video until I

37:56

Got to the shocking twist at the end.

37:58

Now I Can't get the image of the

38:00

the family to think that sideways out of

38:02

my mind's and then there is like a

38:04

hands covering the eyes emerges a series of

38:06

them. And. Then someone said either

38:08

diagonal or vertical would be okay but what you

38:10

did was like opening a bag of chips upside

38:12

down. sat by the way lead to a lot

38:14

of people to sending the fact that he liked

38:17

to do with that way and then the person

38:19

corrected it and said it would be more like

38:21

opening it sideways and I said this actually lead

38:23

to a lot of Side Potter or lot of

38:25

people tell me they like to open their chips

38:27

upstairs and that's for the best flavors it's and

38:29

to the pressing he that I'm said it would

38:31

be like opening a bag of. Chips sideways? You

38:33

mean cutting it. Ah, a crook horizontally as

38:35

opposed to vertically. Either diagonal or vertical would

38:37

be okay. But what I did was. Inexcusable.

38:41

I've. Just gets worse you marks My

38:43

soul just went and saw the horizontal

38:45

tights and then this is another and

38:47

my favorite. So it's that I have

38:50

no idea why of having such a

38:52

strong reaction to a sandwich that I'm

38:54

normally a live and let live doubt

38:56

but I actually just out loud less

38:58

other thought it would cease better with

39:00

taught properly. So I post a little

39:02

poll though and asimo they would said

39:04

it's diagonal. Vertical or horizontal? like

39:07

what was the correct way and the most

39:09

popular answer was a right in and the

39:11

prison said all of the ways. But.

39:13

The way you did it. As

39:17

a slut. And then somebody has

39:19

said that they cut there is vertically and

39:21

I said well that's weird And then somebody

39:23

said to me it's i'm shocked that you're

39:25

shocked by a vertical plot when you do

39:27

the accept that has no name because it

39:29

goes against all mankind. I

39:34

woke up to six hundred twenty messages

39:36

the next morning. All that having a

39:38

sandwich and. It. Was hum bigger

39:40

is. To. Did Zaps which I

39:43

have triggered like a national psyche over

39:45

a grilled cheese sandwich. And it was

39:47

also probably the most fun I've had on

39:49

the internet. It was such a fun couple

39:52

weeks and had friends and family taxing me

39:54

from all over telling me I caught my

39:56

sandwich wrong. Know was the

39:58

right Yeah, you're wrong. I

40:01

preordered. A segment on it The Washington

40:03

Post wrote about it. A couple weeks

40:05

later. The Today Show had a segment

40:07

of us suffer Putting a sandwich that's

40:09

a cat makes us I'm So we

40:11

called Sandwich Gate. So. What I learned

40:13

is that for other people there are different roles

40:15

depending on what the sandwiches. For strategic,

40:17

wait a minute. Wait a minute Wait a

40:20

minute. I just made your freak of grilled

40:22

cheese sandwich. On. A bull so you know

40:24

flat out with the but if you look at the shape

40:26

of it it's flat on one side and round on the

40:28

top. Or and I did not just get it straight up

40:30

and down a cut it out a diagonal because you want

40:32

points. To. Bite into that the

40:34

whole point of about cutting it on a

40:36

diagonal. Whether it's a square a slice of

40:38

birds are cutting across, or a bull or

40:40

cutting out a bias you get. Two points

40:43

and then the rest event is even

40:45

less angular. You want acute angles?

40:47

You want things less than ninety to use.

40:49

That one acute angle. Like.

40:51

To I mean obviously the two sides. I

40:53

just mean like once you but six the

40:55

tips off this cones. It's. All just saw you

40:57

on. From that you need an obvious point of entry.

41:00

You. Need you need a point of entry to

41:02

your sandwich? You need to place a different your super

41:04

dips and dear dip and then goes into your mouth

41:07

the furthest. Without. Having

41:09

to open about to I'd. I want

41:11

my sandwich innards to stay inside

41:13

the sandwich and so I want

41:15

the least half of them. The

41:17

ski thanks And so I'm going

41:19

to make the smallest. That.

41:23

Say. The least. And Stella. I

41:25

feel like a triangle. Era just like Philip.

41:27

open. To put this in context, you're talking

41:30

to someone who designed a T shirt that

41:32

says triangles taste better I'm very pro Triangle

41:34

for a long time if I if you

41:36

want if any by you know where he

41:38

was it's very very was this Teasers you

41:40

can order from deposit zero.coms look up Triangle

41:42

says better A cotton gear at archives you

41:44

can own the shirts that has pictures of

41:46

food or all the triangular foods that are

41:48

better than rectangular school. And. you

41:50

actually worth at t shirt when we

41:52

lost my forcing us in seattle which

41:54

was perfect i wear the shirt knowing

41:56

that it would add that it would

41:58

presume buttons for us said You're

42:01

among friends here. At this

42:03

point, can you admit that you

42:06

secretly agree with everyone? You've been convinced that triangles

42:08

are better and this is now just kind of

42:10

a bent for you. Actually

42:12

what's happened is that my son, who was 14,

42:15

was following along and

42:17

now he, and you know children, they

42:19

need a place to rebel, you know?

42:21

And he now says that I've been cutting

42:23

my sandwiches wrong and so I've actually been

42:25

bullied by my own family to put them

42:27

on the diagonal. And

42:30

so that's how it really came down. And so I

42:32

do actually cut them on the diagonal now but only

42:34

because I have a child harassing me. I

42:37

still think that my logic stands and

42:39

that my sandwich cutting is consistent. I

42:41

also would just like to add that

42:43

if you are interested in dipping your

42:45

sandwich into your

42:48

soup, which I do all the time, I literally made

42:50

it last night, I cut it into

42:52

fingers. Like I cut it

42:54

horizontally into four strips and

42:57

that is my favorite way to dip

42:59

it. That feels acceptable. Can

43:06

you waffle a grilled cheese sandwich? Yes,

43:09

absolutely. I'm talking about like

43:11

a raw grilled cheese sandwich into a waffler that's

43:13

been buttered. It's kind of like the equivalent, an

43:15

extension of like a British toasty

43:18

maker. And they're called

43:20

cheese toasty. They're so common. By the way,

43:22

I was also informed around Sandwich

43:24

Gate that the toasty maker, it makes a

43:26

cut in half and that cut is on the

43:28

diagonal. If you got a toasty maker that came with a

43:30

rectangular cut, you would return it. All

43:34

right. Can you taco

43:36

a grilled cheese sandwich? Hmm. If you

43:38

get that Pepperidge Farm extra thin bread and make

43:40

a really thin grilled cheese, you could probably use

43:42

a grilled cheese as a taco shell for other

43:44

fillings. Can you fry it in butter in a

43:46

pan? Absolutely. Does

43:49

it leftover? I think we're on the

43:52

fence about that question anyway. No. It

43:54

doesn't leftover well. I'd say no. In the news, we

43:56

eat off our kids' plates. I would say the cold

43:58

grilled cheese was pretty up there. Well,

44:00

I hope that people have enjoyed us

44:02

100% not settling the sandwich gate debate.

44:05

I mean, I feel like grilled cheese is one of these things that you

44:07

don't have to settle it. It's good in

44:09

all its forms. There's no bad grilled cheese other than

44:11

cold grilled cheese. And the heart wants

44:13

what the heart wants, even

44:16

when the heart is wrong. At

44:20

the recipepodcast.com, you'll find links to my recipes,

44:23

to Deb's recipes. You'll find a link to

44:25

pick up that triangle's taste better t-shirt if

44:27

you'd like. You'll find a

44:29

link to our Spotify playlist, including Don't Let the Sun Go

44:31

Down on Me, Do What with George Michael and Elton John

44:33

so that you can time your grilled cheeses. Soon you'll have

44:36

a link to the t-shirt I'm going to make, which is

44:38

called Everybody is Wrong But Me. Thank

44:44

you for joining us. If you like what you hear and you

44:46

want to find out more about the show

44:49

or view of suggestions for upcoming episodes, you

44:51

can visit us at the recipepodcast.com or

44:53

follow us on Instagram at Kenji and Deb and

44:55

shoot us a message. And we

44:57

now have a phone number where you can call us.

44:59

It's 202-709-7607 and you can leave us a voicemail. The

45:06

recipe is created and co-hosted by Deb

45:08

Perlman and Jake Kenji Lopez-Alt. Our

45:10

producers are Jocelyn Gonzalez, Harry Gregory

45:13

and Pedro Rafael Rosado of PRX

45:15

Productions. Edwin Ochoa is the

45:17

project manager. The executive producer

45:19

for Radiotopia is Audrey Martavich

45:22

and Yori Lusardo is the director

45:24

of network operations. Claire Delva, Apu

45:26

Gote, Emmanuel Johnson and Mike Russo

45:28

handle our social media. See

45:31

you next time. Thanks for listening. The

45:37

recipe with Kenji and Deb is

45:39

a proud member of Radiotopia from

45:41

PRX, a network of independent, creator-owned,

45:44

listener-supported podcasts. Remember audio

45:46

with vision at radiotopia.fm.