0:04

Good evening. We are awaiting the

0:06

start of President Biden's news conference

0:08

following his bilateral meeting today with

0:10

Chinese leader Xi Jinping. When

0:12

it starts, we will bring it to you live. But

0:14

we begin tonight with a wild day in court in

0:16

Fulton County, Georgia, as we learn

0:18

the source of the leaked confidential interviews

0:21

between D.A. Fannie Willis' office and some

0:24

key figures in her January 6th RICO

0:26

case.

0:27

Fulton County Judge Scott McAfee said he'd

0:29

issue a protective order in the case, barring

0:31

disclosure of certain information from the discovery

0:34

process, one that would allow some

0:36

evidence from the pretrial discovery process

0:38

to be labeled sensitive and withheld

0:41

from public scrutiny. The videos

0:43

obtained by ABC News and The Washington Post

0:46

showed interviews with witnesses Jenna Ellis,

0:49

Sidney Powell, Scott Hall,

0:51

and with Kenneth Chesbrough, whose

0:53

video was not released publicly.

0:56

People have taken plea deals to flip

0:58

on Donald Trump, and the release prompted

1:00

today's emergency hearing. At

1:03

that hearing, there was a surprise confession

1:05

from the source, Jonathan Miller,

1:07

the attorney for one of Donald Trump's 18

1:10

other co-defendants. Former Coffey

1:12

County election supervisor Misty Hampton.

1:16

In being transparent

1:19

with the court and to make

1:21

sure that nobody

1:24

else gets blamed for what happened

1:28

and so that I can go to sleep well tonight,

1:31

Judge, I did release

1:33

those videos to one

1:36

outlet and in all

1:38

candor of the court, I need the court to know that.

1:42

Attorney Mitchell's explanation was that hiding the videos would,

1:45

in his words, mislead the public

1:47

about what went into the Ford guilty pleas,

1:50

adding that he believed it would help his client, saying

1:52

that two of the defendants were directly

1:54

related to my client.

1:57

Mitchell did not say who those

1:59

two clients might be.

3:19

witnesses

4:00

in particular really attacking Jenna

4:03

Ellis. And I'm looking at one of the tweets right now

4:05

two days ago saying that she was

4:07

lying on Dan Scavino. And

4:10

I guess they don't teach ethics at Harvard

4:12

Law anymore. As an aside, Jenna Ellis

4:14

did not go to Harvard Law School. But

4:17

the larger point is that Harrison Floyd

4:19

has engaged in a two week long campaign

4:22

to intimidate and fight back

4:24

against people involved in this case, ranging

4:27

from Brad Raffensperger and Gabe Sterling,

4:29

as you noted, to Jenna Ellis and

4:31

Sidney Powell. And then finally, the motion

4:34

ends with a litany of his tweets

4:36

aimed squarely at Ruby Freeman,

4:38

who is the person that he victimized

4:41

in the first place leading to the charges against

4:43

him and who he continues to

4:45

victimize and was probably the most offensive

4:47

conduct that he engaged in, according to DA

4:50

Fonney Willis' team. So I look forward to

4:52

seeing how this motion is litigated, but

4:54

this is just the opening salvo that we have here

4:56

right now, Joy. Barb, can you comment

4:58

on this? Because I mean, the thing is, is that Donald Trump,

5:01

the problem with his

5:01

behavior is that it is infectious, that

5:04

other people who are MAGA think that they can

5:06

do what he can do, but he was a former president of the United

5:08

States. He's not a black guy

5:10

who was the head of Black Voices for Trump. This

5:13

guy's already been jailed for his previous conduct

5:15

that was violent-ish. And he

5:17

was the one who was in jail, the only one

5:19

who was actually jailed prior to

5:21

his plea. He's now attacking

5:24

the same person he's accused of intimidating,

5:27

bullying her again, continuing

5:29

to victimize her. It's a wonder he hasn't

5:31

already been put back in jail. However, there

5:34

is a discrepancy between the kind of bullying

5:36

that he can do. He probably doesn't have 25

5:38

million or however many followers

5:41

that Donald Trump used to have on Twitter, or

5:43

however many he has on Truth Social, Trump

5:45

can actually direct a mob at people. This guy can't.

5:48

But

5:48

can you just address the discrepancy in the

5:50

sanctions that both of them face? I mean, it's obvious

5:53

he's not the former president, so he doesn't have Secret Service, but

5:55

come on.

5:56

Yes, so in this

5:59

case, and the... Georgia Rico case, there

6:01

is not currently any sort of gag order like

6:03

the one that we've seen in the federal election

6:05

interference case or the one in New York.

6:08

So that's not what the concern is here. One

6:10

of his bond conditions is that he not

6:12

communicate about the case with any of his co-defendants

6:15

or witnesses. And so I think this kind of directed

6:18

directly toward Ruby Freeman is particularly

6:20

problematic with that bond condition. As

6:23

we just heard from Lisa, she was the direct

6:25

victim. He tried to intimidate

6:28

her and coerce her into confessing

6:30

falsely that she had violated

6:34

and committed fraud in the election when of

6:36

course that wasn't true at all. And so that

6:38

sort of intimidation, it goes to the very heart of this

6:40

case. So I don't imagine that at

6:43

the very first instance, the judge's first instinct

6:45

will be to cancel

6:47

his bond and put him in jail. But I think

6:49

it's important that the judge send a message that he

6:52

takes these conditions very seriously. And

6:54

so I imagine we will see him in court with

6:56

at least a warning and a second violation

6:59

may land him in jail. And of course,

7:01

as you point out, Donald Trump says all kinds of things

7:03

about people, including about

7:06

people who might be witnesses or might be

7:08

co-defendants. And so it

7:10

seems that it's funny Willis who's giving him a slightly

7:13

longer leash. And I imagine part of that is

7:15

because as a candidate for president

7:17

in the future, judges are likely

7:19

to be inclined to give him a little more leeway

7:22

so that he can respond in the public arena

7:24

to these charges against him. But I think

7:26

you raise a good point about treating like

7:29

people alike.

7:29

And I think funny Willis has to be careful

7:32

not to be seen as holding herself to double

7:34

standards.

7:35

Let's talk about Donald Trump, his

7:37

team moving from mistrial. Let

7:39

me read some of what his

7:42

proper is trying to get a mistrial.

7:44

In so many

7:46

cases, it's hard to keep them straight at this point. Lisa, I'm going

7:48

to leave it to you to explain more. This

7:49

is here's what he's wrote in this case, in

7:52

this case, the evidence

7:53

of apparent and actual bias. I think this is in

7:55

his New York case. This is his New York

7:57

case, which is already lost. It's

7:59

Tangible and overwhelming.

8:01

Such evidence coupled with an unprecedented

8:04

departure from standard judicial procedure has tainted

8:06

these proceedings and a mistrial is warranted.

8:09

Can you, well,

8:11

let me add another thing. He's also

8:13

gone after the law clerk

8:15

saying that this is the other piece of his

8:17

property, saying

8:18

the law clerk has no constitutional

8:20

authority to act as a co-judge and

8:22

the impropriety of her participation is further

8:24

magnified by the fact that she has violated

8:26

a separate canon of ethics by making partisan

8:28

political contributions in excess of

8:30

strict limits, including to organizations

8:32

actively supporting Attorney General James and

8:35

opposing

8:36

Donald Trump.

8:38

Can you talk about that just a little bit, Lisa, this attempt

8:40

to try to throw out a case that is already

8:42

kind of decided? Yeah, it's interesting,

8:44

Joyce, because to your point, when

8:46

you say it's already kind of decided, this

8:49

is something that I am

8:51

trying to make clear to our viewers whenever

8:53

I have an opportunity to comment on this case. The

8:55

judge did decide that there has been a

8:57

pervasive and years-long fraud

8:59

engaged in by the Trump Organization and

9:02

the five individual defendants with respect

9:04

to how Donald Trump valued his

9:06

assets. But there are six remaining claims

9:08

here. That's why we're still having

9:11

a trial that I have been attending fairly

9:13

regularly. And each of those claims

9:16

require proof of intent by

9:18

the defendants, and that is why they are as contested

9:21

as they are, and they will take as long

9:23

to try as they will. Those

9:25

claims are also important to the Attorney General

9:28

because the magnitude of the release

9:30

that she is fighting for will largely turn

9:33

on how they are able to show intent

9:35

by Donald Trump, his adult sons, Allen

9:37

Weisselberg, the former CFO, Jeff McConnie,

9:40

who was the former controller, and then the organization

9:43

as a whole. So the case is

9:45

very much still alive. Now, to your question

9:47

about the principal law clerk and the

9:49

judge, the allegation that

9:52

Donald Trump's lawyers are making is that this

9:54

judge is functioning effectively as a co-judge

9:57

and that nobody elected her, that she

9:59

ex- changes notes and constant

10:01

whispers with Judge Arthur Ngoron that

10:04

lead them to believe that she is

10:06

exercising a level of authority that is inappropriate.

10:09

And on top of that, because of her partisan political

10:12

contributions and activities, that

10:14

she is already a person who's demonstrated

10:17

a partisan prejudgment of Donald

10:19

Trump before she ever walked in the room.

10:22

I think that to the extent that they

10:24

are able to show that her campaign contributions

10:27

are problematic and are a violation of judicial

10:29

ethics here in New York, that will not

10:31

be a basis for a mistrial

10:34

or overturning any later decision by Judge

10:36

Ngoron. It will likely be, if proven,

10:38

a basis for discipline. And as you know,

10:40

Congresswoman Elise Stefanik has a

10:43

pending complaint with the New York Commission on Judicial

10:45

Ethics. But there isn't

10:47

a lot of proof that the

10:50

conversations between the judge

10:52

and his law clerk are in fact emblematic

10:55

of bias. Because Barb knows well, just

10:57

because you lose repeatedly in front of a judge

11:00

doesn't mean that judge is biased. It might

11:02

mean that you actually committed the

11:05

conduct of which you've been accused and might

11:07

be held liable in the

11:07

future. Yeah.

11:09

Okay. And let's just zigzag back. Absolutely.

11:14

Donald Trump is trying to dismiss the truth and the fact,

11:16

but the numbers and evidence don't lie. Donald Trump

11:18

is now being held accountable for the years of fraud he committed and

11:20

the incredible ways he lied to enrich himself and his family.

11:23

He can keep trying to distract from his fraud, but the

11:25

truth always comes out. That's Attorney General James'

11:28

response. Let me zigzag right back to Georgia

11:30

just for a second, Barb. Georgia

11:33

election workers who have been victimized

11:35

in this case are now seeking Ruby Freeman,

11:38

who the aforementioned Ruby Freeman and Sheamus our

11:40

daughter are seeking $15.5 million and $43 million

11:44

from Rudy Giuliani in a defamation suit

11:46

that's slated to begin next month in Washington,

11:48

D.C. The fact that he's

11:51

already been found liable for defamatory comments,

11:53

it's similar to the

11:56

New York case in which the finding of fact is done

11:58

and now it's a question of liability. What do

12:00

you make of that that starts in December?

12:03

And this is about just the damages. Can you explain

12:06

how it can be that there's still a trial when all they're

12:08

trying to figure out is damages?

12:10

Yes, so liability is

12:12

one question. And then what's it

12:15

worth is a separate question. And so the

12:17

damages will go into their reputations.

12:19

What kind of harm did they receive as a

12:21

result of this? We heard their testimony before

12:24

the House Select Committee on this

12:26

about how their lives had been changed as a

12:28

result of it. But that's what will be

12:30

before a court in this case.

12:33

And so they'll have to put a dollar value on that. Lost

12:35

wages if they stopped working because

12:37

of this. Pain and suffering, emotional

12:39

damage, the inability to leave their homes. I

12:42

expect this number to be well into the millions, but

12:45

a judge will actually assess the

12:48

value and provide an award to

12:50

them. And both sides will certainly argue about

12:52

what they think this case is worth.

12:55

And then they'll have to see if they can try to collect some property,

12:57

Giuliani, see how much money he's got left. Barbara

12:59

McQuaid and Lisa Rubin. That's always the rub,

13:01

isn't it? Thank you ladies very much.

13:03

And coming up next, while we're waiting the

13:06

start of President Biden's news conference

13:08

following his bilateral meeting in California

13:10

today with Chinese President Xi Jinping.

13:13

I have an amazing panel standing by to talk about

13:15

that. And the readout

13:17

continues.

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now, wherever you get your podcasts.

14:57

In this hour, President Biden

14:59

will do something he doesn't do too often. Hold

15:02

a news conference. It will be his first solo

15:04

news conference since May, and it couldn't come

15:06

at a more critical time, because a lot

15:08

is going on right now, both here at home and around

15:11

the world.

15:12

Earlier today, Biden met face-to-face with

15:14

Chinese President Xi Jinping, the first

15:16

conversation between the two in a year. The

15:18

two discussed a range of issues, including

15:20

the wars in Ukraine and the Middle East, where Israeli

15:23

forces raided the Al-Shifa hospital, trapping

15:26

hundreds, including medical staff, patients,

15:29

displaced families, and premature babies. It

15:31

was a significant escalation in what has

15:34

already been a devastating assault. And

15:36

it comes as President Biden is facing criticism,

15:39

including from members of his own administration,

15:41

for his handling of the conflict. Then

15:44

you have Biden's likely 2024 opponent,

15:46

who seems to be getting more authoritarian by

15:50

the day, threatening political opponents, judges,

15:52

prosecutors, even describing his rivals

15:54

as vermin, something President

15:56

Biden said yesterday echoes language used

15:59

in Nazi Germany.

16:00

On top of that, the Republican-led House of

16:03

Representatives is in complete dysfunction,

16:05

with just days until the government runs out of money.

16:08

The newest House Speaker yesterday passed

16:10

a funding bill that would keep

16:12

the government open and running for at least a

16:14

couple more months, but with

16:16

support from Democrats,

16:18

rather than members of his own party.

16:20

While the Republicans have been busy getting into near-fist

16:23

fights, screaming matches, and

16:25

today, yelling at the FBI Director and Homeland Security

16:27

Secretary about, well, everything.

16:31

Were you aware of this?

16:33

Consul, as I said, I haven't seen the

16:35

photos that you're holding up before.

16:38

Maybe, well, I posted them on my Twitter

16:40

account. It's public. You know,

16:42

maybe you guys are- I don't spend a lot of time on Twitter.

16:44

Well, you know, you, oh, I'm sure

16:46

you do, because the Department of Homeland

16:48

Security, and organized with other offices,

16:51

has censored many Americans,

16:53

including myself.

16:54

I'm not part of the Department of Homeland Security.

16:56

Can you confirm

16:57

that the FBI had that sort

17:00

of engagement with your own agents, embedded

17:03

within to the crowd on January 6th? If

17:06

you are asking whether the violence

17:09

at the Capitol on January 6th was

17:11

part of some operation orchestrated

17:13

by FBI sources and or agents,

17:15

the answer is emphatically- You're saying no? No.

17:19

You're saying not? Violence orchestrated by

17:21

FBI sources or agents?

17:23

Are you familiar with

17:25

what a ghost vehicle is?

17:28

A reminder

17:30

that

17:31

your tax dollars pay their salaries. You're

17:33

welcome. Let's bring in my panel, Helene

17:35

Cooper, correspondent for The New York Times and MSNBC

17:38

political contributor. Ben Rhodes, former

17:40

deputy national security advisor and MSNBC

17:43

political contributor. Charles Blow, columnist

17:45

for The New York Times and MSNBC political

17:47

analyst. And Michael Beschloss,

17:49

NBC News presidential historian.

17:52

Thank you all for being here. I just want to go in reverse

17:54

order and start with Clay

17:56

Higgins and Marjorie Greene.

17:59

somehow thinks that the FBI

18:02

director actually also runs the Homeland Security

18:04

Department and has been messing with her Twitter

18:06

account.

18:07

And Clay Higgins, Ben

18:09

Rhodes,

18:10

who seems to believe that

18:12

it is wisdom to, as

18:14

a United States

18:17

congressman, float the idea

18:19

to the FBI director's face that the

18:21

FBI orchestrated

18:24

January 6th

18:25

by

18:26

trucking over

18:27

FBI operatives

18:29

to cause the violence that we saw.

18:32

That to me is absolute madness, but I

18:34

just want to just get you to comment on the fact that

18:36

that happened today in a

18:40

congressional hearing.

18:42

Yeah, I mean, it's a

18:45

signal of the absolute absence of any

18:47

bottom for these people. I

18:49

think you saw in the reaction from Director

18:51

Ray. That he took it personally, not

18:53

just himself, but frankly, his entire

18:56

agency, which has been consistently this

18:58

target of conspiracy theory

19:01

in all manner of bizarre accusations

19:03

from members of Congress. I

19:05

think what's really telling about the joy, though, is that these

19:07

people, you know, there used to be a situation

19:09

where people were elected to Congress and they went and

19:12

they represented their constituents and they worked

19:14

on certain issues. These are people that are

19:16

like living in a far right wing

19:18

fever dream media ecosystem

19:21

where they assume that normal

19:24

human beings, including people that run very

19:26

important large government agencies, are somehow

19:28

aware of their bizarre

19:30

conspiracy theories because they spend all

19:33

their time either in a media ecosystem

19:35

or talking to other people who are familiar

19:38

with the intricacies of the conspiracy theories

19:40

about, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene's Twitter

19:42

account or what some FBI

19:44

source might have been doing on January 6th. When

19:47

the normal people have

19:50

no idea what they're talking about, you know, and

19:52

so the fact that this is what they're doing representing

19:54

their constituents, this is what they're doing when

19:57

they should be funding the government

19:59

and keeping it open. rather than, you know, hanging

20:01

their newly elected speaker out to dry,

20:03

to have to turn to Democratic votes. There are

20:05

multiple wars happening around the world that could

20:08

use congressional attention. Instead, they

20:10

turn Congress into just a forum for

20:12

an extension of some far right wing

20:14

media podcast or something where

20:16

they're going to talk about conspiracy theories and insult

20:19

people that work every day to keep us safe. I think it just

20:21

shows you a fundamentally unserious the Republican

20:23

Party is about governing or really about anything.

20:26

And it's not at a time that is not momentous.

20:29

I want to play with Christopher Wray, the testimony

20:31

that he actually gave. And I watched a

20:33

good bit of this hearing. And it was bizarre to watch

20:35

because you had on one side, Democrats are asking

20:38

questions about things like, you know, the rise in

20:40

anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic violence and Islamophobic

20:43

violence and other threats to our

20:44

national security and Republicans who were doing

20:46

that, who were doing that performance. And

20:48

it was wild to just sort of watch it

20:50

happen in this committee. Let

20:53

me listen. Let me let you listen to Christopher Wray. And

20:55

he was talking about the actual

20:56

real threats we face. They're not to margarine green's

20:58

Twitter

20:58

account. Here we go.

21:01

The greatest threat to the homeland is lone

21:03

actors or small groups,

21:06

typically radicalized online

21:09

using easily accessible weapons

21:11

to attack soft targets. And that group

21:13

of lone actors includes both, as

21:16

you rightly say, domestic violent

21:18

extremists, as well as though that's

21:20

the clarification, homegrown violent

21:22

extremists who are individuals here

21:24

who are inspired by foreign terrorist.

21:28

And Charles, well, you know, this

21:30

is one of the many things on the plate

21:32

of the federal government and on the plate of the

21:34

Biden administration at a

21:36

time when the polarization in the country doesn't

21:39

allow Americans to focus on that, because so

21:41

many actually believe conspiracy theories are

21:43

focused on conspiracy theories and really

21:45

only see January 6 through that lens. Talk

21:47

about the challenge of that and attempting

21:50

to not just run for reelection, but actually govern in

21:52

that environment.

21:54

Right. Well, the Republicans are not like

21:56

you said, are not interested in governing whatsoever.

21:59

And they're in particular not interested

22:02

in focusing on the homegrown threat

22:04

because very often the

22:06

people who are radicalized are coming

22:09

from the right and many of

22:11

them are young white

22:13

men. And those are not the

22:15

people who play well into

22:17

their narrative about who the threat should

22:19

be. They want to focus on

22:21

a threat of crime that they position

22:25

as becoming from black

22:27

and brown people in inner cities. They want to focus

22:29

on the threat coming across the border which

22:31

they position as mostly brown people. They

22:35

don't want to focus on this particular kind

22:37

of threat. And so they do

22:39

this thing that you just saw

22:42

which is performance in front of cameras. And this

22:44

is part of it is, you know, this idea

22:46

that they are lost and they don't understand

22:48

things. I actually think that they are more sophisticated

22:51

than that. It's just an exploitation

22:53

of media that exists today.

22:56

It began as an exploitation of cameras

22:59

in these hearings, but even

23:01

then it was up to newspapers

23:05

and news channels, television

23:07

news channels that put things on. Now in an

23:09

age where social media can

23:11

grab clips of everything, all of this

23:14

works for Marjorie. None of

23:16

this hurts Marjorie. All

23:18

she has to do is to never apologize,

23:21

always be aggressive, and that

23:23

plays to her base that helps her to raise money

23:25

and raising money and raising your profile in the Republican

23:28

Party is the only thing that matters now in

23:30

this kind of world

23:33

that Donald Trump has created that he

23:35

brought into politics which is much

23:38

more of a TV-centric world.

23:41

So I think that maybe it's kind of naive

23:43

and crazy on some levels, also just

23:45

savvy and exploitation of

23:47

media on another.

23:50

Yeah, and the thing about it is,

23:52

and I'm going to expend all

23:53

the unserious people first, Clay Higgins,

23:55

Marjorie Greene, I'm going to get one more in. This

23:58

unfortunately is going to fall in your lap.

23:59

loss because this is somebody who is both

24:02

unserious and attempting to call upon

24:04

a really dark period in our history

24:07

in order to make a really stupid point,

24:09

which is that he actually wants to physically fight the head of

24:11

the Teamsters. And that is the only

24:13

thing that Mark Wayne Mullen, who is a United

24:15

States Senator from the state of Oklahoma,

24:18

the place where the Tulsa massacre happened, something

24:21

that is a history he probably doesn't even know.

24:23

And this is somebody who says, right,

24:26

who he claims Native American heritage,

24:28

and yet this is the way

24:29

that he

24:32

went on and expounded upon

24:34

his desire to physically fight

24:36

the head of the Teamsters Union. Here is

24:38

Mark Wayne Mullen talking about Andrew Jackson.

24:41

Could

24:44

you guys go bare knuckle if you wanted to? Just

24:47

a little bit into the rules. And you

24:49

know, you used to build a cane. You got a member of President

24:51

Andrew Jackson challenged nine

24:53

guys to duel and won nine times. And

24:56

at the time, I was at the table,

24:58

Jackson jumped up, literally ran across

25:00

the table and knocked the guy out. And

25:03

so at the end of the day, there is presence

25:05

for it.

25:08

Michael Beschloss,

25:10

I don't even know what to say. So your thoughts?

25:13

Yeah, thanks a lot for giving me this

25:15

duty, Joy. Yes, absolutely

25:18

true.

25:19

You know, here we are. You know, what is

25:21

different about tonight?

25:22

Our country is in real danger. You heard

25:24

what Chris Ray said today, domestic

25:27

terrorism, foreign terrorism. Right

25:30

now, our president has been meeting today with the

25:32

leader of China with whom we are on the razor

25:34

edge of a new Cold War

25:37

with, you know, the two leaders not having

25:39

been able to speak mainly from

25:41

their side during the last year. And

25:44

so a big part of our government

25:46

is the Congress of the United States. Are they rising

25:48

to the occasion? No, we've

25:51

got a speaker of the house, Mike Johnson. And

25:53

this is unlike any time in all of American

25:55

history who has been willing and

25:58

eager and maybe the frightened. operative

26:01

of an ex-president Donald Trump

26:03

who's running for president of the United States. If

26:05

Donald Trump wants Mike Johnson to

26:08

initiate or resume an impeachment

26:10

investigation against Donald Trump's presumed

26:13

opponent next year, Joe Biden, Mike

26:16

Johnson is going to do it. This is not an independent

26:18

branch. This is a subservient

26:21

branch to an ex-president and

26:23

perhaps even a future president. So

26:25

all I'm saying is, you know, let's look for two moments

26:28

in American history that give us some

26:30

rough precedent for this. One is

26:32

the 1850s. We were careening

26:35

towards civil war. We saw the

26:37

kind of violence or near violence

26:39

on the floor of the House and Senate that

26:42

we almost saw yesterday between Sean O'Brien

26:45

and Senator Mullen from Oklahoma.

26:48

And that is probably going to increase. And

26:51

at the same time, you know, let's take a look

26:53

at 1940, a time when

26:55

Americans were divided right down the middle.

26:58

They were about to vote for president. Should

27:00

we gather together to

27:03

stand up to Adolf Hitler in the Imperial

27:05

Japanese? Or should we just say,

27:07

you know, we'll retire behind our ocean

27:09

moats and see what happens?

27:12

Just the same kind of question that we are asking

27:14

tonight around the world. So all I'm

27:16

saying is if you compare the urgency

27:19

and danger of the moment, which is huge

27:22

in a historical context, plus

27:24

the seriousness of Congress, which

27:27

is low, this would be a laughing

27:29

stock if it were not so dangerous. It

27:32

is a very scary time.

27:34

Indeed. And I gave you that assignment,

27:36

my friend, because when they go

27:38

low, I know you go high and you have set us up

27:40

perfectly for where I want to start. Thank

27:43

you very much. And well,

27:45

I definitely appreciate you. My distinguished panel is going

27:47

to stay right with me because Michael Beschloss has set

27:49

us up perfectly for where I want to start with Helene Cooper

27:51

right on the other side of the break. We are

27:53

still awaiting the start of President Biden's new conference.

27:56

So stay right there.

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29:14

Back with me are Helene Cooper, Ben Rhodes,

29:16

Charles Blow

29:17

and Michael Beschloss. And Helene, let me start with you.

29:20

The meeting that President Biden had today

29:22

with Xi Jinping focused on

29:24

generally

29:25

four areas, Iran, Israel and

29:27

Hamas, Russia's invasion

29:29

of Ukraine and North Korea and human rights.

29:31

Give us a picture of

29:33

where China fits into

29:35

those issues, noting that

29:38

there was a Russian missile attack on Kiev

29:41

literally today.

29:44

Well,

29:44

hi Joy. Sorry, this week, not today.

29:46

Go ahead. Yeah, thanks for having

29:48

me. It's

29:50

such a big deal, this meeting

29:52

between Xi and

29:55

Biden because as Michael

29:57

mentioned earlier, they have not met. in

30:00

a solid year and things

30:02

have deteriorated. If you look at just what

30:04

has happened in the past year since

30:07

they last talked to each other,

30:10

you've got the Russia's continued

30:14

invasion and occupation war in Ukraine.

30:17

You have the Chinese spy balloon crisis

30:20

that we all had back

30:22

in, I think it was February or March. You

30:24

have the Israel-Gaza-Hamas

30:27

war. There's been

30:29

so much and things have been going

30:32

steadily downhill

30:34

in the relationship between China

30:36

and the United States. And these are, let's face

30:38

it, Russia considers itself to be a superpower,

30:41

but the United States and China, these are the world's

30:43

two big superpowers and they

30:45

have been on a collision course for

30:48

several years now. The

30:51

two men were scheduled.

30:53

We heard from Biden administration

30:56

officials planning

30:58

to talk about all the issues I

31:00

mentioned earlier. What

31:03

China wants from the US is for the United

31:05

States to let up a little bit on

31:08

some of the restrictions and the pressure that

31:10

the Biden administration and the United States has

31:12

put on China on a number

31:14

of things, including technology

31:15

transfers.

31:18

The United States, for its part, would like

31:20

China to put

31:23

more restrictions in place of stuff that

31:25

funds fentanyl. They

31:28

want Beijing to crack down on that. The

31:30

United States would love for China

31:33

and the United States to resume military

31:35

to military dialogue, which

31:37

China cut off last

31:40

year, right after in opposition

31:42

to Nancy Pelosi's trip to Taiwan.

31:45

This is a big deal. I just got back yesterday

31:48

from a trip to Japan and Korea with

31:51

General Charles Q. Brown, the new chairman of

31:53

the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And he told

31:56

us that the US is so eager

31:58

to resume these. military

32:00

talks because he's worried that

32:02

when these two big militaries

32:05

don't have any kind of dialogue, it's

32:07

so easy for misconceptions to

32:09

turn into war. And that's the last

32:12

thing you want. Beijing has been doing what the

32:14

Pentagon describes as a lot of dangerous

32:17

maneuvers in the Pacific with their

32:19

fighter jets, with their ships coming very

32:21

dangerously close to American ships

32:25

and to American planes in the region.

32:27

So there's a lot of conflict over that and the

32:30

two, the Biden administration wants

32:32

to be able to pick up the phone and say, look, before

32:36

something gets too out

32:38

of control. And that's the last thing

32:40

you want with these two superpowers. When

32:42

you look at the Russia war with Ukraine,

32:44

China has been, the US is worried about

32:47

China siding more with Russia.

32:49

There's worry about where China's going to end

32:51

up on the Hamas thing. So there's just

32:54

so much going on and there's

32:56

so much room for misunderstanding

32:59

that it has to be a good thing that President

33:01

Biden and President Xi are finally sitting

33:04

down to talk, though, whether or not when

33:06

you hear how administration officials have

33:08

described their expectations

33:11

for the meeting, nobody expects

33:14

that it's going to be a great huge

33:16

announcement of big progress. But I

33:18

think just the fact that the two men are

33:21

talking is what's going to be put

33:24

forth as sort

33:26

of the encouraging sign. Yeah.

33:30

Let me bring you

33:32

in here, Ben, on this, because this is a lot of complicated

33:34

stuff that President Biden is trying

33:36

to sort of manage in terms of America's place in

33:38

the world and the sort of position of the West. President

33:41

Biden, I think one could argue, really brought the

33:43

West together when it came to Ukraine, but

33:46

in some ways is isolated a bit more

33:49

when it comes to Israel with

33:51

what's happening in Gaza because

33:53

of the international outrage, even President Macron

33:55

coming out and saying, yeah, too much

33:58

deaths, too many babies dying. the

34:00

pictures out of Gaza are horrific.

34:01

It's causing him domestic political

34:04

issues as well. Talk a little bit about that

34:06

balancing act because President Biden is

34:08

sort of,

34:09

you know, the West is the good guy in

34:12

one instance. And in the other instance,

34:14

a lot of the world is

34:15

doing massive protests, not just against what Israel

34:17

is doing, but against us.

34:20

I think the United States is incredibly isolated

34:24

from most of the rest of the world when it comes

34:26

to Israel's military operation in Gaza right

34:28

now. The problem that the US

34:30

was already having with the Ukraine war is

34:33

that the Biden team had done a good job of holding

34:35

together the NATO alliance and the

34:37

US and Europe, and then some Asian

34:39

allies like Japan and South Korea and Australia.

34:42

But really, the rest of the world, particularly

34:45

the global South countries in Latin America,

34:47

Asia and Africa, were not coming

34:49

on board to put sanctions on Russia, to enforce

34:52

those sanctions, or to provide diplomatic or

34:54

military support to Ukraine. That was already the

34:56

case before the

34:59

October 7 attack on Hamas and the Israeli response.

35:02

And China was taking advantage of that

35:05

and was trying to say, look, the US is focused on this

35:07

war in Ukraine. They're not focused on the things you

35:09

care about, which is economic development, which

35:11

is infrastructure, which is the

35:13

clean energy transition that you need to make. We'll

35:15

be your supplier on that. And I

35:18

think that opening for China has gotten a lot bigger

35:20

in the last few weeks. We should just be honest about that.

35:22

That is what is happening in the world right now. And

35:25

I think for the Biden team, it's a precarious

35:27

moment because the war in Ukraine has reached

35:29

something of a stalemate in the assessment

35:31

of Ukraine's own military leadership after

35:34

a counteroffensive that yielded fairly minimal gains.

35:37

And it's going to be hard for the US to sustain support,

35:39

including from the US Congress, which has to approve the

35:42

next round of assistance package for Ukraine. The

35:44

US is somewhat, I think,

35:46

particularly isolated on its kind

35:49

of unwavering support for Israel. There's some countries,

35:51

the United Kingdom, Germany, some other European countries are very

35:53

much where the US is. But as you said, global public

35:56

opinion, as well as opinion and much

35:58

of the rest of the world, I think, is... very

36:00

much against, just in the U.S. has taken. And

36:03

so this isn't an opportunity to say we're

36:05

resetting this one relationship. We're putting a floor

36:07

underneath the dissent in the relationship between the

36:09

U.S. and China. We're showing the rest of the world we can

36:12

solve some problems through dialogue. We don't want another

36:14

conflict in the Taiwan Strait, which is why we

36:16

need a military-to-military exchange to prevent escalation.

36:19

We want to at least kind of put this on a back burner

36:21

now, because we've got two big wars on

36:23

the front burner in the Middle East and

36:25

Ukraine, and those wars are quite complicated

36:27

for the U.S. demand right now.

36:30

Yeah, and then on

36:32

top of that, there is the domestic

36:33

political situation and the fallout that's happening

36:36

here as a result of those policies as well. I want

36:38

to talk about that on the other side of the break. My panel is sticking

36:40

with us. We are awaiting the start of President Biden's

36:42

news conference, but I want to talk about the domestic political

36:44

situation President Biden

36:46

is facing as he goes toward a reelection campaign.

36:49

We're going to do that right after a

36:52

quick break. We

36:54

are still awaiting President Biden's press conference

36:56

at any moment.

36:58

And back with me are Helene Cooper, Ben Rhodes, Charles

37:00

Blow, and Michael Beshlas. I want to quickly play for

37:03

you all a piece

37:05

of sound from a gentleman named Dr. Asmed El-Makaladi.

37:09

He's a plastic surgeon at Al-Shifa Hospital

37:11

in Gaza, and he is describing

37:14

what's happening at the hospital to our

37:17

reporters at NBC.

37:20

It's more of a war zone where it's continuous

37:23

bombing, shooting, the drones are

37:25

within the hospital area, targeting

37:27

and shooting anyone moving between the buildings.

37:31

The ambulance are not allowed to move in or out

37:33

of the hospital. Whoever tries to

37:35

move will be killed.

37:38

Charles Blow, this situation

37:41

in Gaza has become a

37:43

liability for President Biden at

37:46

home. He's

37:48

expressing a desire to not vote for him again. African-American

37:52

young black voters who are allied

37:54

with the Palestinian cause turning against

37:57

him. It's a real problem even in

37:59

his own administration.

37:59

letters being sent around

38:02

from people in the administration objecting to the policy,

38:04

including members of Congress getting similar misses

38:07

from their own staff. Here's a poll I

38:09

want to show you. This is President Biden. If

38:11

in fact there was a five-way race for president

38:14

right now, he would get 35%. It's

38:16

just one poll. It's just a Quinnipiac poll. It is a year

38:18

out. 38% for Donald Trump. Robert

38:21

F. Kennedy Jr. polling at 17%. Cornel

38:23

West at three. Jill Stein at three. This doesn't

38:25

even include Joe Manchin, which we're going to talk about in a moment.

38:28

Talk a little bit about the ways in which

38:31

this conflict has impacted

38:32

President Biden and

38:34

changed in some ways the way people look at how

38:36

his re-elect might look.

38:38

Right.

38:39

So, I always have to say this

38:41

when starting out in this conversation, that there

38:43

is no real comparison between

38:45

what Joe Biden is doing and what Trump has basically

38:48

signaled that he wants to do to come through, which is basically to

38:50

destroy. So, I think we always have to just start there,

38:52

even when discussing whatever the weaknesses Biden

38:54

may have. You think that the Gaza situation

38:57

has opened up a real chasm

39:00

between the Democratic

39:03

coalition that existed and the younger

39:05

parts of that coalition. They're

39:07

just really upset. It

39:10

is hard to look at this and not be upset

39:13

on some level, even when you accept that Hamas

39:16

committed a terrorist attack, killed 1,200 people. That's

39:19

horrific. Even if you accept that it is horrific,

39:22

that they took hostages, and that is a horrible

39:24

thing to do in any regard. You don't know where your loved ones

39:26

are. That's horrific. Still,

39:29

when you have over 10,000

39:31

people killed

39:34

in one month of war,

39:37

it is unconscionable.

39:40

There's no other way to think about that.

39:42

I've heard people say, well, when you're attacked

39:45

in a terrorist attack, you can't tell that country

39:48

what to do. You couldn't tell the US not to go

39:50

into Afghanistan. Even

39:53

there, the comparison doesn't

39:55

hold. The

39:57

Afghan war, I think there were almost 50.

39:59

over 20 years. If you average that out, there's 200 people

40:02

a month. That's still

40:03

horrible, but

40:07

it

40:07

doesn't stack

40:08

up to 10,000. And maybe you can say that

40:10

in the beginning of a war, there will be more civilians killed,

40:13

and at the end, whatever you are. So you can say that

40:16

Hamas may be inflating their numbers a little bit. I take

40:18

that to your point. Still, the

40:23

numbers are incredible. And when

40:25

you understand that more

40:27

than half of those, at least by the

40:32

reports, are women and children, how do you

40:34

deal with that? And I think a lot of people, particularly

40:39

young people, are looking at that and saying, this

40:41

is not a moral thing. This is

40:43

immoral, and I have to take a stand. And that

40:46

is a problem for Joe Biden, because those

40:48

would be his voters.

40:50

What's kind

40:53

of jarring Michael

40:55

Beschloss is that

40:56

Joe Biden's brand has been built on

40:58

empathy. And this is

41:00

one of those places where his empathy

41:02

has seemed to fail him the way he's communicated about

41:06

this, particularly since the images that we're seeing are so

41:08

horrific, and so many of them involve children.

41:10

I mean, the images of those infants

41:11

in that incubator, where they're all just

41:13

trying to warm each other

41:16

because the incubators don't work anymore. It's

41:18

hard to watch. And it

41:20

has broken Joe Biden

41:23

from a part of his base that had kind of forgiven

41:25

him for some other things that they wanted him to do that

41:27

he didn't do.

41:28

Historically, it

41:31

does. I don't know. Where do you think that this

41:33

places him? Because where he stood

41:35

vis-a-vis Ukraine and where

41:37

he stands

41:38

vis-a-vis Israel

41:40

and Hamas feels so completely different. It's like

41:42

two different presidents are running for re-election.

41:45

Well, the numbers would suggest that this

41:48

is a division among Biden voters

41:50

and Democrats that from

41:52

his point of view, he's going to have to resolve between

41:55

now and less than a year from this

41:57

month. So that is absolutely

41:59

tremendous.

41:59

I would totally underline

42:02

what Charles said, and that is that

42:05

as much as people may be rightfully

42:07

disturbed by a lot of the things

42:09

that they are seeing, the overwhelming

42:11

question is probably going to be, are

42:14

Americans going to vote for Joe

42:17

Biden, who with all this laws, loves

42:19

democracy, wants to preserve our system,

42:22

or for Donald Trump, who'd like to bring

42:24

all of this down, and

42:27

the rule of law, as he said, stop

42:29

the Constitution, usher in

42:31

what amounts to a military dictatorship.

42:34

And if I could bring in another thing beyond

42:37

what we've been talking about tonight,

42:39

you were talking, Joy, about what

42:41

is the effect of what we're seeing today on domestic

42:44

politics. Other leaders

42:47

in other countries, especially those who hate us,

42:50

know that they can do a lot to elect

42:52

the president they want by

42:54

initiating or exacerbating international

42:57

events. Take 1980. Jimmy

43:00

Carter was president, he was dealing with double

43:03

digit inflation, but more than that,

43:05

he was dealing with a superpower confrontation

43:08

in Afghanistan, and an Iran hostage

43:10

crisis. Without those two, maybe

43:12

those three things, Carter would have

43:14

won. Ever since then, a country

43:17

that wishes us ill can say,

43:20

let's resolve the American election. I'm

43:22

not talking about the Middle East here, I'm

43:24

talking about the possibility of an invasion

43:27

of Taiwan, or something that we are not expecting.

43:30

Let's have an international event that reshuffles

43:33

the cards. So all I'm saying

43:35

is that for us to predict the world we're

43:37

going to be dealing with a year from now is

43:39

probably for at least me, a fool's errand.

43:42

It is difficult, Helene. It

43:45

seems that there are, it's sort of everything

43:47

everywhere all at once, like the title of that

43:49

film. And the Middle East crisis

43:51

has bedeviled every single president

43:54

since the 1960s. And

43:56

so Biden is in a particularly difficult place.

44:00

How unprecedented is it for you as a journalist

44:02

who's covered this sort of international immunity

44:04

for there to be this much open dissent and

44:06

public dissent for an American

44:08

president during a crisis

44:11

like this? Because on this Israel issue, I

44:13

don't know that I've ever seen this much internal

44:15

dissent that's made

44:17

public.

44:19

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think one

44:22

of the issues that makes this so

44:24

extraordinary is you

44:27

mentioned earlier that Arab Americans

44:30

and a lot of young African Americans

44:32

were very angry at President Biden over

44:34

this. It's not just them. I have

44:36

so many Jewish friends who are talking about

44:39

how their kids are out protesting

44:41

on behalf of Palestinians. I

44:43

think it's a very young,

44:47

so many young college, you see the kind

44:49

of the crises we're having at these college

44:52

campuses and you see so many

44:54

of these kids who are just starting out, starting

44:57

to vote, who are going to be who

44:59

were pissed off about this. And he's

45:01

also getting, but President Biden is

45:04

in quite a fix because he's also

45:06

going to be, he's also getting stuff from the

45:09

pro Israel crowd and he's afraid

45:11

of alienating the people at APAC.

45:15

And we were talking about this in the

45:17

New York Times newsroom just the other

45:19

day about it almost feels as

45:21

if for Biden to save his presidency,

45:23

he's going to have to figure out a way to bring

45:26

peace to the Israeli is he's going

45:28

to have to actually like solve the whole problem

45:30

and come up with people, Israeli Israelis

45:32

and Palestinians. He's in such a

45:35

hole with this that it's a very hard thing. And I think

45:37

the administration that

45:40

then kind of alluded to this, but the administration

45:42

sort of had not realized how much the

45:44

world had passed by their standard response

45:47

to this issue, which is first and foremost,

45:49

just show how much you support, support

45:51

Israel. And I think they were a little bit taken by surprise

45:54

at how much the world has started to move

45:56

beyond and starting to, to,

45:58

to, to promote the. not promote, but

46:01

to consider the plight

46:04

of the Palestinians on equal terms, the

46:06

plight of the Israelis who also want

46:08

peace in their land. And

46:09

it's a very good point, Ben. I'll let

46:11

you close on that

46:12

because you talked about the global south. This issue

46:14

is seen one way by the

46:17

vast majority of the world

46:20

and one way by Joe

46:21

Biden, who a person I spoke

46:23

with in the administration, you know, said he's just

46:25

old school and he was taken aback by it.

46:30

Yeah, I mean, you know, he made this kind of full

46:32

embrace, not just of Israel, let's be clear,

46:35

full embrace of Prime Minister Netanyahu

46:37

in the days after his attacks. And

46:40

in some ways, that made the US

46:42

kind of a co-author, gave the US a degree of

46:44

ownership over what Netanyahu and his

46:46

government, which is the most far right government in Israel's history,

46:49

even with this unity government was going

46:51

to do. And what we've learned

46:53

of repeated presence, including the one I

46:55

worked for, is that Prime Minister Netanyahu

46:58

is more than willing to ignore the advice

47:00

of the US government. So you've seen this recalibration where

47:02

they start to talk about humanitarian pauses, where

47:05

they start to getting aid in. But that's not happening.

47:07

What's happening is what we see the images from that hospital,

47:10

what's happening is there's thousands

47:12

of children that have been killed. What's happening is the

47:14

Israeli government under Netanyahu is saying, we're

47:16

going to permanently open

47:18

ended the responsible for security in Gaza. And

47:21

I think that's a really big problem. And they have to decide,

47:23

you know, it's you can't hug Netanyahu

47:26

in public and deliver these messages

47:28

kind of quietly. At some point, they're

47:30

gonna have to meet people where they are. And people

47:33

are concerned about this.

47:34

Indeed. Ben Rhodes, Helene Cooper,

47:36

Charles Blow, Michael Beschloss, I could not have imagined

47:39

a better panel and a more brilliant panel on the talk

47:41

with tonight. Thank you all very much. That is

47:43

tonight's

47:43

readout.

47:52

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