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A silly and a weary Donald

1:00

Trump back in court for week

1:02

to of testimony complaining about his

1:04

inability to campaign after spending his

1:06

previous days off from court. Golfing.

1:09

Also tonight Trump's frightening new

1:12

interview about his sinister plans

1:14

if he gets back into

1:16

the White House including allowing

1:18

seats to monitor women's pregnancies

1:20

and even send them to

1:22

prison. plus Columbia University's Valley

1:24

to expel pro Palestinian protesters

1:26

now occupy and academic building

1:28

as campus protests and police

1:30

crackdowns. Continue across the

1:33

country. We

1:37

begin tonight with Week two of Testimony

1:39

and Donald Trump's hush Money election interference.

1:41

Trials for the first time. One of

1:44

Trump's family members, middle son Eric join

1:46

him in the court room along with

1:48

some of Trump's associates. It. Also

1:50

appears that Trump's repeated please for his

1:52

supporters to please come to his aid

1:54

worked. With a few dozen appearing

1:56

outside the court. it is

1:58

unknown have any of those suppose Most supporters

2:00

also carry a sad card. But

2:03

those may be the only highlights to Trump's

2:05

day, given what transpired inside the courtroom. Most

2:08

of the day was spent hearing from

2:10

Keith Davidson, a former attorney for both

2:12

Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels. Davidson

2:15

is a key player in the scheme and alleged

2:17

conspiracy to pay off the two

2:19

women to keep their stories about

2:21

their alleged sexual encounters with Trump

2:24

from going public before the 2016 election.

2:28

The prosecution did not just rely

2:30

on Davidson's testimony, but also his

2:32

text messages and emails from that

2:34

time. Text messages between

2:36

Davidson and the editor of the National

2:38

Enquirer, David Howard, Dylan Howard,

2:42

detail the deal made with McDougal,

2:44

beginning with, I have a

2:46

blockbuster Trump story. Upon

2:49

finalizing the agreement, Howard texted Davidson,

2:51

quote, We are going to lay it on

2:53

thick for her. Davidson replied,

2:55

Good. Throw in an

2:58

ambassadorship from me. I'm thinking, I'll have man.

3:02

Today Davidson testified that his comment was

3:04

something of a joke, but he

3:06

sent it because he knew the deal would

3:08

help Trump's candidacy. The text

3:10

between the two also lay out

3:12

the impact of Stormy Daniels reemergence

3:14

to the days following the October

3:17

2016 release of

3:19

the Access Hollywood tape. Davidson

3:21

texted Howard on October 8th. Trump

3:24

is effed with Howard responding, wave

3:27

the white flag. It's over, people. The

3:29

next day, Davidson texted, Hi, the story

3:32

is already out there to

3:34

which Howard responded. Yeah, but her talking

3:36

and taking blank is the final nail

3:38

in the coffin, but he's effed already.

3:42

Davidson testified on how Michael Cohen

3:44

missed deadlines to make the $130,000

3:46

payment to Daniels

3:50

with Davidson recalling Cohen saying,

3:53

What do you expect me to do? My guy's

3:55

in five effing states today. My

3:57

guy, of course, referring to all Trump. It

4:00

was then Davidson claims that Cohen said he

4:02

would just pay it himself. And

4:05

that is how Cohen came to pay out the

4:07

money by taking out a home equity line

4:09

of credit. And that also brings

4:11

us to the other witnesses we heard from

4:13

this morning who were brought on to authenticate

4:15

various records. That

4:18

included continued testimony from one of

4:20

Cohen's bankers, Gary Farrow, who

4:22

we started to hear from on Friday. He

4:24

provided the receipts on how Cohen moved

4:27

fast and furious less than two weeks

4:29

before the 2016 election to both set

4:31

up an account and complete the wire

4:33

transfer to Stormy Daniels with Keith Davidson

4:35

for the $130,000 in hush money. And

4:41

that payment could not have come quickly enough, as

4:44

Davidson also presented emails stating

4:47

that 10 days prior to that wire

4:49

transfer and after much delay, Stormy

4:51

Daniels was going to cancel the settlement

4:54

agreement altogether. Now someone

4:56

may need to tell Trump about all these

4:58

developments given that his eyes were closed for

5:00

extended periods throughout the day, again creating the

5:03

appearance that has led to folks calling

5:05

him sleepy Don. But

5:07

before Trump started to reach that slumbered

5:09

state, he was told by Judge

5:11

Juan Marchón that he was being held

5:13

in criminal contempt for violating the gag

5:16

order with his attacks on the jurors

5:18

and potential witnesses. While

5:20

he was only fined $1,000 for each

5:22

of the nine violations, Marchón warned in

5:24

the decision that he

5:26

would not tolerate further violations

5:28

of the order and said if

5:31

necessary and appropriate under the circumstances,

5:33

he would impose an incarceratory punishment

5:36

on the former president, meaning

5:38

jail. When the trial

5:41

resumes on Thursday, it will begin with

5:43

another hearing over additional alleged gag order

5:45

violations by Trump. Joining me

5:47

now is Paul Butler, former federal prosecutor,

5:49

Georgetown law professor and MSNBC legal analyst,

5:52

and Tony Schwartz, CEO of The Energy

5:54

Project and co-author of Donald Trump's The

5:56

Art of the Deal. Thank you all

5:58

for being here. with

6:00

you. I'll start with the gag order,

6:02

Paul. Finds for now,

6:04

jail later, Donald Trump, if he keeps violating

6:07

it, Donald Trump did take down the offending

6:09

post, but is $9,000 a real penalty? No,

6:13

not for Donald Trump. It's chump

6:15

change. He has the biggest megaphone

6:17

of any criminal defendant in US

6:19

history, and he uses it to

6:21

disparage witnesses in violation of the

6:24

gag order. Maybe it makes political

6:26

sense. He's got to give his

6:28

followers some reason to believe that

6:30

these folks like Michael Cohen and

6:32

Stormy Daniels who could send him

6:34

to jail or at least

6:37

cause him to become a convicted

6:39

criminal, he's got to give his

6:41

followers a reason not to believe

6:44

them, but that's in direct contradiction

6:46

to what the judge has ordered.

6:48

Joy, any other defendant who

6:50

willfully disobeyed nine times, nine contempt sanctions,

6:53

would be sitting under Rikers Island right

6:55

now. So Donald Trump doesn't think of

6:57

it this way, but this is yet

6:59

another example of him being treated differently

7:01

because he's Donald Trump. Absolutely. What did

7:04

you think was most substantive development today?

7:06

Keith Davidson testifying. He was, of course,

7:08

the lawyer who arranged the payments, and

7:10

also you had the banker finishing his

7:13

testimony about how quickly Michael Cohen acted

7:15

to create that LLC to sort of

7:17

make the sort of pretense of a

7:19

company to send that money to

7:22

Stormy Daniels. So as we have

7:24

to remind everyone, paying hush money

7:26

isn't a crime. What Donald Trump

7:28

is charged with is falsifying business

7:30

records that disguise these hush money

7:32

payments. He did that 34 times

7:35

according to Alvin Brack. That's a

7:37

misdemeanor, but gets bumped up to

7:39

a felony. If the purpose of

7:41

these false business records was to

7:43

try to commit another crime, Alvin

7:46

Brack says those other crimes were

7:48

state and federal campaign violations and

7:50

also New York tax laws. What does

7:52

that mean? It means that Alvin Brack

7:54

has to prove that this was all

7:56

about the campaign, and that's what

7:59

this witness helped. do today. So, Mr.

8:01

Davidson was the lawyer for both

8:03

Stormy Daniels and Kerri McDougall. He

8:06

testified that all of this was

8:08

about the campaign. It wasn't contrary

8:11

to what Trump wants the juristic thing

8:13

about keeping this information

8:15

from Melania. It wasn't about protecting

8:17

his family. He's got text messages

8:19

and emails to prove it. So,

8:22

ultimately, Michael Cohen's going to come

8:24

and say the same thing. What

8:26

Bragg is hoping is that Michael

8:28

Cohen will be the kind

8:31

of most anti-climatic star

8:33

witness in history, because

8:35

everything that Cohen says,

8:39

Alvin Bragg wants the jurists who have heard before

8:41

from other witnesses. And it's already been coordinated with,

8:43

you know, physical testimony and not just that, but

8:46

also text messages, etc. Tony, let me bring you

8:48

in here. What do you make

8:50

of the fact that Donald Trump did make an

8:52

adjustment today, seemingly finally having a family member in

8:54

court with him so that he wouldn't look alone?

8:57

I remember being in the courtroom. He definitely looked

8:59

lonely with that empty bench behind him with no

9:01

family, no one there, and then Secret Service one

9:03

row back. So, he looked really sort of solitary.

9:05

What do you make of the fact that Eric

9:07

Trump showed up today? Well,

9:10

I imagine the family drew straws and

9:12

he lost, because

9:15

nobody would want to be there with him.

9:17

I think

9:20

it's irrelevant. I think, clearly, he made

9:22

that decision the same way he makes

9:24

every decision, which is, how

9:26

do I want it to look? As opposed

9:29

to what is it really? I

9:32

don't think having him there affected it

9:34

one way or the other. His eyes

9:36

are closed. He appears to be either

9:38

sleeping or often some sort

9:40

of reverie. And the

9:44

notion that this guy is having to

9:46

sit there for nine hours a day

9:48

or eight hours a day is

9:51

such for him a torture

9:54

that it overshadows

9:57

Everything joy that I think is happening in the

9:59

trial. The As a man

10:01

who is demonstrating very clearly why

10:03

he's not qualified to be presidents.

10:06

And meanwhile if you try to

10:08

ask yourself the questions what's been

10:10

a good moment for Trump in

10:12

this trial? You. Probably can't

10:14

come up with one because virtually

10:16

everything, including all of the testimony

10:19

today and the fact that he

10:21

was bad to be in contempt.

10:24

Have to militate against

10:26

him So I think

10:28

I think he is

10:30

putting on a spectacle.

10:32

Cs. For eleven let me ask you

10:35

this because there is reporting that he's unhappy

10:37

with Todd Lance his attorney who when I

10:39

saw him in court he seemed very our

10:41

city and not conflating the fall Federal Prosecutor

10:43

season for battling the prosecutor at the time

10:45

on but he wants more aggressive and at

10:47

a pod last he's not happy with the

10:49

lack of a glass and. Will.

10:52

You can't win as a lawyer

10:54

for Trump, particularly when you're losing.

10:56

particularly when Trump recognizes the disease

10:58

and going his way. Or whether

11:00

it was this lawyer or any

11:02

other lawyer, this is a really

11:05

tough case to litigate. Odds are

11:07

released. Difficult argument to make. You've

11:09

got a quiet who's almost impossible

11:11

to keep in his seat ourselves.

11:13

I think he'd of. Assessing

11:16

his performances kind of irrelevant. I

11:18

think that the issue is that

11:20

Trump is going to beat up

11:22

on the anybody who's bowling, sort

11:24

of making him look innocent in

11:27

a situation in which he is

11:29

guilty as hell. Let's

11:31

play a little bit busy with and map and

11:33

paul for they they played some since an archive

11:35

me play a little bit of what they sold

11:37

in court today. It's.

11:41

A phony deal. I have no

11:43

idea who these women are. Have

11:45

no idea. I have no idea.

11:48

And I think you all know I have

11:51

no idea because you understand me for a

11:53

lotta years of her. When

12:00

you looked at that horrible woman last night,

12:02

you said, I don't think so. I

12:05

don't think so. Whoever she is,

12:07

wherever she comes from, the

12:10

stories are total fiction.

12:14

They're 100% made up. They

12:17

never happened. They never

12:19

would happen. We're all horrible

12:21

eyes, all fabrications, and we

12:24

can't let them change the

12:26

most important election in

12:29

our lifetime. Michael Cone is a very talented lawyer.

12:32

What do you think was the, why did the prosecution play that?

12:34

Well, it's Trump's voice in court. This is

12:36

the first time the jury has actually heard

12:38

what Donald Trump sounds like, and what's he

12:41

doing? He's lying. So first of all, I

12:43

don't see how he takes the stand because

12:45

he's going to be able to be impeached

12:48

with his lies and with his misconduct.

12:50

He says he didn't cheat on his

12:52

life, and again, that's not a crime,

12:54

but if he's making that assertion to

12:57

try to prove his innocence, or at

12:59

least get the jury to find him

13:01

not guilty, then the jury's not going

13:03

to like him very much. Again,

13:05

if he sticks by that statement, so then

13:07

he'll be in that classic position where the

13:09

prosecutor says, well, are you lying then when

13:11

you said it was a lie, or are

13:14

you lying now when you said it wasn't

13:16

a lie? So part of it, again, is

13:18

to kind of prevent

13:20

Trump from taking the stand, although in

13:22

some ways prosecutors would love that because

13:24

then all of this other evidence comes

13:26

in. Tony, we know in the past

13:28

Donald Trump has paid people to show

13:30

up, I mean, he did pay supporters

13:32

to show up when he did his,

13:35

and he paid him 50 bucks to come to his

13:37

presidential announcement, but he's done that in the past. Today

13:39

he did a protest, he's been very openly whining that

13:41

his protesters can't get in. There was nobody there when

13:43

I was there, except one guy was ringing a bell.

13:46

He finally did get a little bit of a

13:48

protest today. Why does he need that? Well,

13:53

he needs anything to shore up the

13:55

sense of

13:57

inadequacy and emptiness that...

14:00

pervades his body, even

14:03

outside of his awareness. So

14:05

anything that could, it's why

14:07

he wants to go out and give speeches

14:09

right now, not because he thinks they

14:11

matter necessarily one way or the other, but

14:14

because he loves to be beloved. And

14:16

so I actually thought,

14:18

and I say this even

14:21

as somebody who are, you know, notwithstanding

14:23

the fact that I'm a critic of

14:25

his, that that was a pretty pathetic

14:27

demonstration in regard, in response

14:29

to being asked for

14:31

all Trump supporters being asked to show

14:33

up at the court. I mean, what

14:35

was it? Two or three dozen people.

14:38

I mean, these are people had nothing

14:40

to do today, but virtually no one

14:42

did show up. And I find that

14:44

all fascinating, including the fact that members

14:46

of his family don't show up. Really,

14:50

Trump has no emotional

14:52

connection to anyone,

14:55

including himself. And

14:58

so to recognize that we're

15:00

looking at an extraordinary human

15:02

being, it's it's

15:04

a surreal situation. Yeah,

15:07

it is, to say the least. Well

15:09

said. And even an understatement. Paul Butler,

15:11

Tony Schwartz, thank you both very much. And up

15:13

next on the readout, democracy is in danger if

15:16

the aforementioned Trump wins. And a

15:18

terrifying new interview in Time magazine,

15:20

they said, abundantly clear that Trump

15:22

threatening these military ports to

15:25

deport undocumented immigrants allow

15:27

red states to monitor women's

15:29

pregnancies. Today

15:39

and every day, Planned Parenthood is committed

15:41

to ensuring that everyone has the information

15:43

and resources they need to make their

15:45

own decisions about their bodies, including abortion

15:48

care. Members who oppose

15:50

abortion are attacking Planned Parenthood, which means

15:52

affordable, high quality basic health care for

15:54

more than two million people is at

15:56

stake. The right to control our bodies

15:58

and get the health care we. need

16:00

has been stolen from us. And now,

16:02

politicians in nearly every state have introduced

16:04

bills that would block people from getting

16:07

the sexual and reproductive care they need.

16:09

Planned Parenthood believes everyone deserves health care.

16:11

It's a human right. That's

16:13

why they fight every day to push

16:16

for common sense policies that protect our

16:18

right to control our own bodies and

16:20

against policies that interfere with decisions between

16:22

patients and their doctor. Planned

16:24

Parenthood needs your support now more

16:26

than ever. With supporters like

16:29

you, we can reclaim

16:31

our rights and protect

16:33

and expand access to

16:35

abortion care. Visit plannedparenthood.org/future.

16:37

That's plannedparenthood.org/future. As

16:43

a candidate, Donald Trump has had a wide berth

16:45

to talk a lot without saying much. This

16:48

morning, Time Magazine published a new interview

16:50

with Trump where they asked him serious

16:52

probative questions about what a second Trump

16:55

presidency would actually look like. And

16:57

it's dark stuff. From a

16:59

dictatorship only on day one, migrant

17:02

detention camps, using

17:04

the Comstock Act to ban abortion, and

17:07

policing protesters by deploying the National

17:09

Guard. He told Times

17:11

Reporter that he'd be willing to fire

17:13

a U.S. attorney who didn't prosecute someone

17:15

he ordered, noting that it

17:18

depends on the situation. He

17:20

explained that obliterating the so-called

17:22

deep state meant getting rid

17:24

of bad people, people

17:26

that have not done a good job for him.

17:28

He would absolutely pardon criminals

17:31

convicted of assaulting the Capitol on January

17:33

6th, telling Time that many of

17:35

those people went in, many of those people were

17:37

ushered in. You see it on tape. The police

17:40

are ushering them in. They're walking with

17:42

the police. When the reporter asked

17:44

Trump what he thought of Americans who

17:46

found his language about being a dictator

17:48

for a day or suspending the Constitution,

17:50

contrary to American democracy, he said, I

17:53

think a lot of people like it. And

17:55

much like the last election, when asked if

17:57

he was worried about violence, Trump acknowledged that

18:00

that it would only happen if he loses, which

18:02

sounds an awful lot like a threat. Joining

18:04

me now is Robert Kagan, Washington Post

18:07

editor-at-large, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution,

18:09

and author of Rebellion, How Antiliberalism is

18:11

Tearing America Apart Again, which was published

18:14

today, a timely book. We're going to

18:16

talk about it shortly, but I want

18:18

to talk about this time interview. If

18:20

I had one criticism of it, Robert,

18:24

it was the way that

18:26

they placed Donald Trump's plans, using

18:28

letting states monitor women's abortions, monitor

18:30

women's, I guess, menstrual cycles, I don't

18:33

know how they would do that, and

18:36

they placed it against, well, here are all the

18:38

legislative barriers to that, as if there would

18:40

be legislative barriers, as if there would be

18:42

some sort of normal functioning democracy with him

18:44

as president. What did you make of the

18:46

interview and the revelations therein? Well,

18:49

I'm sorry, I have to admit, I haven't read the interview,

18:51

although I've seen the quotes that

18:53

came out of it and what you

18:55

just read. And I think there is

18:58

a general tendency, unfortunately, in this country

19:00

to just assume that because our system

19:02

has been functioning, because the institutions have

19:04

been operating for many years, that they

19:07

will save us, ultimately. But

19:09

I think the founders of the republic

19:11

could have told us that it isn't

19:14

the institutions by themselves. The people have

19:16

to act correctly. The people have to

19:19

understand what threat exists

19:21

right now from Donald

19:23

Trump in terms of becoming a dictator. They

19:27

spoke of the need for virtue, and

19:29

by which they meant the people rising

19:31

up to protect our system against the

19:33

dictator. I don't mean rising up illegally.

19:35

I mean, rising up electorally, forcing

19:38

congressmen to do the right thing, etc. So

19:40

I think we can be very passive sometimes

19:42

and just hope that the institutions will save

19:45

us, but I think that's a mistake. Yeah,

19:47

I mean, I'm just going to put

19:50

up a sort of a limited list of the things that Trump has said

19:52

he would do in 2025. That's layup

19:54

of civil servants and replacing them

19:57

with loyalists, terminating the Constitution, politicizing

19:59

the DOJ. to investigate his

20:01

political adversaries. Bomb Mexico,

20:03

shoot migrants, electrify the

20:06

wall. No

20:08

two-state solution in the Middle East.

20:10

End birthright citizenship, revoke student

20:12

visas for ceasefire protesters, reinstate

20:16

and expand the Muslim ban, gut

20:18

the EPA, exit the Paris Climate

20:20

Accord, a national ban on trans

20:23

care for minors, punishing hospitals that

20:25

provide any transgender care, teaching what

20:28

he calls patriotic education, terminate the

20:30

Department of Education. I could go

20:32

on allowing states to punish women

20:34

as they see fit and force

20:36

the Comstock Act to buy an

20:38

abortion nationwide. I

20:40

mean everything he has in here,

20:43

shoot shoplifters, shoot shoplifters,

20:45

federal takeovers of democratic

20:47

cities and people hear

20:49

that, see that, read that and say,

20:52

I want that. What

20:54

should we make of that? Well, he was right

20:56

at the end of, I guess it was, I don't know

20:58

what was the end of that interview but it was the

21:00

end of your quotations when he was asked, you know, what

21:02

does he think about, you know, violating

21:05

the Constitution, etc., and calling yourself dictator of

21:07

a day and he said the people like

21:09

it. And I think that's a

21:11

very important point that we are not focusing

21:13

enough on. This isn't just about Donald Trump.

21:15

He does have a very powerful, very

21:18

mobilized constituency that is

21:20

fundamentally seeking to overthrow

21:23

the fundamental liberal

21:25

system that the founders created. They oppose

21:27

it. They oppose it because they think

21:30

that their view of

21:32

the nation, they have an ethno-religious definition

21:34

of the nation. For them, the nation

21:36

is a white Christian. For some of

21:38

them, it's a white Protestant nation. This

21:41

is an old strain in

21:43

American history after all. This didn't

21:45

just pop up. It's just what's happened now is

21:47

that these people who've always been around, they were

21:49

part of the John Birch Society, they were part

21:52

of the McCarthy movement, they were in the South

21:54

during the slave years, they were in the South

21:56

during the Jim Crow years, but now

21:58

for the first time certainly. only in

22:01

many decades, they've taken control of

22:03

one of the political parties and

22:05

they have a leader who

22:07

is essentially determined to destroy the system

22:09

for his own purposes, but what they

22:12

see is the opportunity to change the

22:14

system in a way that is more

22:16

to their liking and therefore not consistent

22:19

with what the founders intended. Well,

22:22

and they've corrupted, you know, this sort

22:24

of ethos has corrupted the Supreme Court, right? They

22:27

detect a desire to institute a

22:29

kind of religious diktat over

22:31

the country from people like Samuel

22:33

Alito. And you know, I've

22:36

talked about it repealing the 20th century as

22:38

being a core goal of MAGAism. It

22:40

feels like what offends them is

22:42

that the 20th century made, and you

22:44

talk about this in your book, what

22:46

the Constitution sort of prescribed

22:48

as a kind of small L liberalism,

22:51

right? Where there's individual liberty. The

22:53

20th century is the great American century because

22:55

it actually made that more real for women, for

22:57

workers, for, you know, what used to be

22:59

child laborers, for people of color, for immigrants,

23:01

for black people, and they are offended by

23:03

it, by the whole 20th century. That's

23:06

right. And it's important to separate

23:08

that from what they talk about. They're upset

23:10

about wokeness. But you know, people were upset

23:12

about wokeness back in the civil rights era

23:14

too. There were many whites who were upset

23:16

about the civil rights movement and they regarded

23:19

it as the wokeness of their time. So

23:21

it's really true that it is the fundamental

23:23

elements of our system that they're opposed to,

23:25

even though they want to say that it's

23:27

an excess of wokeness. And I

23:29

just think we need to understand that it

23:32

isn't just the whims of Donald Trump. And

23:34

you know, one of the reasons that he's talking

23:37

the way he talks is that

23:39

his most reliable group of supporters

23:41

are what I think you

23:43

can't have a better word for them than white

23:45

nationalists. He ran in his first

23:47

campaign, people don't remember, I think back in

23:50

2011 when he was his

23:52

first run for the presidency. He ran

23:54

on a one issue, which was birtherism,

23:57

which was basically to say that the

23:59

first black American president

24:01

was not really an American. And

24:03

in so doing, he signaled to

24:05

those people that he was their

24:08

representative. And they have basically chosen

24:10

him as their leader.

24:12

And they are essential to him because

24:14

as he goes through these court trials,

24:16

as he faces the various pressures

24:19

that he faces in the system,

24:21

he can't rely on your average,

24:23

you know, Mitt Romney voting Republican.

24:25

He has to rely on these

24:27

hardcore white nationalists, in some cases

24:29

white Christian nationalists who are sticking

24:31

with him no matter what, no matter

24:33

what happens in the trials. And

24:36

this is the book, we're gonna talk more about it on the

24:38

other side of the break. Because I wanna get into some of

24:40

your thesis, which is really about these people

24:42

saying that they are the super patriots, but how they

24:45

fundamentally disagree with the founders on what the system

24:47

is. You talk about that in this book, we're gonna

24:49

do that on the other side of the break.

24:51

Robert Cade can move right back with us. Stand there.

24:54

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can do this when you Angie that. I

26:01

cannot in good conscience endorse

26:04

Donald Trump in this campaign. I think there's a lot

26:06

to be concerned about. I've said I believe he's a

26:08

threat to democracy and we should be

26:10

very mindful of that. I think it's

26:12

important for people to understand that they

26:15

are rolling the dice on a

26:17

second Trump term. Robert

26:19

Kagan is back with me. He's the

26:22

author of Rebellion, How Antiliberalism is Tearing

26:24

America Apart Again. Those were three

26:26

Republicans, Mike Pence, Mark Esper, former Defense Secretary, and

26:28

John Bolton said they won't vote for Trump. But

26:30

a lot of Republicans will sit back and let

26:32

him come back in, or either

26:35

be passive about it or actively vote for

26:37

him again. In this book, you draw a

26:39

line between the kind of straight line from

26:42

the slave holding South through the 1920s, which

26:44

you and I agree is the era we're

26:46

kind of reliving. Talk about that

26:48

and why so many Republicans will go along. Well,

26:52

why so many Republicans go along is

26:54

an interesting question. I mean, there's obviously

26:56

the professional Republican class, which is basically

26:58

people like Bill Barr, who I think

27:00

are basically cowards and they don't want

27:02

to be expelled from the Republican community,

27:04

even though Barr has said very negative

27:06

things about Donald Trump. But

27:08

as far as your average Republican voter, why

27:11

don't you know, I don't believe anymore that

27:13

people don't see the threat that Donald Trump

27:15

poses. He makes it clear every single day,

27:17

the kind of threat that he poses. So

27:19

if people are willing to support him, you

27:22

can only conclude that they're just not, they don't care.

27:26

And I think that, you know, unfortunately

27:29

for a lot of white Americans, I think

27:31

that they don't think that whatever Donald Trump

27:33

is going to be doing is going to

27:35

be aimed at them. And after

27:37

all, he's talking about the poisoning

27:39

the blood and and using the

27:41

military against immigrants. And he's always

27:43

divided America between white people and

27:46

particularly white males and everybody else.

27:49

And so I think if you're in

27:51

that category or if you're a rich

27:54

guy like Jamie Dimon, who basically endorsed

27:56

Donald Trump, Davos, it's because you

27:58

think you're going to be OK. It's

28:01

depressing to think that way but as

28:03

I know it in the book, you

28:05

know, both Jefferson and Lincoln and others

28:08

very much worried about precisely

28:10

this, that the necessary sort

28:12

of commitment to liberal values

28:14

which is to say the

28:16

values of protecting individual rights and

28:19

the idea of universal rights, that

28:21

commitment can waver over time. It

28:24

did waver. When Lincoln gives

28:26

his famous Lyceum speech in 1838, you

28:29

know, there was violence all over the place

28:31

and it was clear that the system was

28:33

breaking down and he lamented the loss of

28:36

those values and of course within two decades

28:38

when you had the Civil War. And I

28:40

do feel that we're in a very similar

28:42

place right now where people have forgotten, you

28:44

know, what it is that makes our liberty

28:46

special, what makes the country special and

28:49

it is the principles of the

28:51

Declaration of Independence which I believe

28:53

Trump and a significant portion of

28:55

his movement are hostile to. And

28:58

why in the 20s do you focus on it

29:00

so much in this book? Well, you know, one

29:02

of the great things that we've I think to

29:04

some extent covered over in our

29:07

history is the nature of the 1920s.

29:10

You know, we think of it as the

29:12

Jazz Age. The Flapper Era. Right, and you

29:14

have those boring Republican presidents that nobody can

29:16

think of, silent Cal, etc. It

29:19

also happened to be a time of sort of

29:21

peak racism in the United States and not just

29:24

race, you know, peak religious

29:26

bigotry, etc. The

29:28

second Ku Klux Klan was

29:31

widespread and by the way, a

29:33

very legitimate organization. Politicians

29:35

were happy to be members of the

29:37

Klan back in that day and then

29:40

there was also this thing that I

29:42

was talking about that's been covered over.

29:44

The Eugenics Movement was very powerful in

29:46

the United States and they didn't just

29:48

make distinction between blacks, I mean, whites

29:51

and blacks and other non-white peoples, they

29:53

made distinctions between white people, between the

29:55

Nordic race and the Mediterranean race, etc.

29:58

So that was a very bad time. And you

30:00

know what? There are very important figures

30:02

in the Trump world who say explicitly

30:04

that they want to go back to

30:07

the 1920s. You

30:09

and I are both obsessed with the

30:12

same era, sir. This book is, you

30:14

were speaking my inner thoughts with this,

30:16

Robert Kagan. I believe everyone

30:18

should read this book. It is super important. Y'all

30:20

need to, if you don't know the 20s, you

30:23

don't know this era. Thank you, sir. Robert Kagan.

30:25

Much appreciated. Best of luck with the book. Coming

30:27

up, pro-Palestinian and anti-war protests, and the response to

30:29

them has continued to escalate with Columbia

30:32

students now occupying an administrative building.

30:34

A live report on that campus

30:36

next. Protests

30:46

over Israel's war in Gaza continue

30:48

to royal university campuses nationwide. As

30:50

Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu says Israel

30:53

will launch a military campaign against

30:55

Rafa, even with a ceasefire

30:57

deal. At Columbia University in

30:59

New York, protesters occupied a

31:01

building overnight flying a Palestinian

31:03

flag from Hamilton Hall. Columbia

31:06

warned students to stay away

31:08

from campus today. The university

31:10

also began suspending students who

31:12

defied in order to leave

31:14

their pro-Palestinian encampment by Monday's

31:16

deadline. Across the country, hundreds

31:18

of students have been arrested after

31:20

college presidents called police, some

31:22

in riot gear and some carrying tear gas.

31:25

That is certainly the case at the University

31:27

of Texas in Austin and Washington

31:29

University in St. Louis, where the

31:32

school has threatened students with expulsion

31:34

and arrest. The St.

31:36

Louis Post-Dispatch report that students

31:39

are houseless and professors are

31:41

unclear about their jobs after

31:43

they were barred from Washington

31:45

University's campus following an

31:47

anti-war protest that ended in mass

31:50

arrests. Joining me now is

31:52

NBC News correspondent Antonia Hilton near the

31:54

Columbia campus. Antonia, give me the

31:56

latest. Well,

32:00

the question that is on everyone's mind

32:02

right now is what's about to happen

32:04

here? Is this building, is Hamilton Hall

32:07

right behind me? There are about 60

32:09

people inside. Students tell me

32:11

they think some students are there, but we just

32:13

heard from the NYPD and the mayor that their

32:15

belief is that there are what they called anarchists,

32:18

non-affiliates, people who are not students,

32:20

almost professional agitators who found their

32:22

way into the protests and into

32:24

this building last night. And

32:27

the NYPD is waiting to see if Columbia is going

32:29

to give them permission to enter. And

32:31

if they do, the people inside

32:33

that building, if their students are

32:35

facing expulsion, but likely worse, potentially

32:38

felony charges, trespassing and more.

32:41

And so students, faculty, have been getting

32:43

texts from professors for the last several

32:45

hours who are all very worried about

32:48

what might happen to students, students

32:50

who aren't even just in those buildings who

32:52

might be nearby or protesting on the steps

32:54

close to Hamilton Hall. There is fear right

32:57

now of what could physically happen to the

32:59

campus community. And a

33:01

lot of people on all sides of

33:03

this issue, from the Jewish students who

33:05

have felt at times on the safe

33:07

here on campus to pro-Palestinian students and

33:09

faculty, the one thing they seem to

33:11

agree on, Joy, is that this is

33:13

the fault of the administration, that at

33:15

some point the negotiations, the conversations, should

33:17

have reached some kind

33:20

of solution. We saw Brown, for example,

33:22

today. They closed their encampment because the

33:24

school agreed to go to a vote

33:26

to discuss the possibility of divestment, to

33:28

at least show the students that they

33:30

were going to consider these measures. Then, of course, we've

33:33

seen the other end of the spectrum, which is just

33:35

an immediate and almost constant police response at other

33:37

schools. So the question here for people on

33:39

all sides of Columbia is, how is the administration

33:41

going to handle this tonight, and what is about to

33:43

happen, Joy? Yeah, absolutely. We've also

33:45

seen UPenn and the new school, other schools have

33:47

handled it very differently. NBC News,

33:50

NBC's and Tony Hilton, thank you. If anything

33:52

happens, wave your hands and we will come

33:54

back to you. Thank you so much. Let's

33:56

bring in Andrew de la Salle, a student

33:59

at Washington University. to be in St. Louis,

34:01

who was arrested for protesting on Saturday. Tell

34:03

us what happened to you, Andrew. Well,

34:06

in short, I was arrested on my

34:08

own campus. I was held in custody

34:10

for six hours. I wasn't

34:13

provided water or food, and I've since been

34:15

suspended and banned for my own campus. That's

34:18

what happened. And what were you charged with?

34:20

I was charged with trespassing. So

34:23

were you suspended before they issued

34:25

the trespassing charge? I

34:27

was suspended about six

34:30

hours after receiving notice of my trespassing

34:32

charge. So essentially they suspended you and

34:34

then said, you no longer have a right to be on

34:36

the campus and then charged you with trespassing? They

34:40

first charged me with trespassing, and then I

34:42

received notice of my suspension the following morning.

34:45

Now, tell me why you were protesting. What

34:47

was the ask of the people that you

34:49

were protesting with? Yes,

34:52

our demands were very clear. It was

34:54

for the university to divest from Boeing.

34:58

Boeing is a weapons manufacturer. It has factories in the

35:00

St. Louis area, and the university

35:02

has maintained its relationship

35:04

with the art manufacturer

35:06

despite student union passing

35:09

a resolution opposing

35:11

the university's relationship despite

35:13

multiple protests, despite walkouts,

35:15

despite art installations. This

35:18

was a continuation of the protests of

35:21

the university's relationship with Boeing because

35:24

we can find those bomb fragments in the homes

35:27

of Palestinians in Central Gaza. And

35:29

what was the university's response to, did you

35:31

all request negotiations? Did you wanna talk to

35:34

them? Well,

35:36

when we were establishing the encampment,

35:39

some elected officials showed up and

35:43

they said that they would speak with the

35:45

administrators. We asked them if they're gonna

35:47

be there, they might as well advocate for us. And

35:50

Dr. Jill Stein and two members of the Board

35:52

of elders for St. Louis attempted

35:54

to speak with administrators, but our

35:56

Dean of students and other administrators

35:58

refused to speak. with us, refused to

36:01

speak with the electeds. And

36:03

actually they remained behind police lines, lounging

36:05

in an armchair with their hands behind

36:07

their head. And they did so

36:09

as five police departments swept the camp and

36:11

brutalized as many our neighbors,

36:14

my friends, our protesters, all of

36:16

us together. Were you

36:18

surprised at how violent the reaction was? Because

36:21

we've seen this sort of repeated at campus

36:23

after campus and each

36:26

university doesn't seem to be changing the

36:28

tactics. Were you surprised that the arrests

36:30

were pretty violent? I'll

36:33

say that I wasn't, I'm disappointed

36:35

in the behavior of the administrators, especially

36:37

as somebody who has had the opportunity

36:39

to sit down for dinner with the

36:42

chancellor, meet his family, discuss my story,

36:44

learn about what drives him to be

36:46

a leader. But my

36:49

story and the stories of the other people

36:51

on the protests and the stories of all

36:53

of those coming out of Gaza weren't enough

36:55

to prevent them from sending in those departments.

36:57

Very quickly, what happens to you next? Do

36:59

you have legal representation? What do you do

37:01

now? Fortunately, the

37:03

St. Louis community is incredibly strong. Many

37:06

of the arrestees have been, we've

37:09

been in discussion about potential legal support and

37:11

other resources, especially for the folks that have

37:13

been evicted from their homes on campus. Andrew

37:17

de Lasales, thank you very much. John, please keep

37:19

in touch with us so we can follow up with you. Thank

37:21

you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And

37:24

coming up next, securing the youth and minority vote is

37:26

imperative for President Biden to win in

37:28

November, which is why Vice President Harris

37:30

is on a tour highlighting the administration's

37:33

investment in minority and underserved communities. Vice

37:43

President Kamala Harris was on the campaign

37:46

trail on Monday. The vice president visited

37:48

Atlanta to kick off a nationwide economic

37:50

opportunity tour, highlighting Biden

37:53

administration investments in underserved and

37:55

minority communities. three

38:00

years has been focused on all of these

38:02

areas and also understanding

38:04

the context in which we

38:06

exist which is

38:09

the long-standing disparities and

38:11

understanding that in spite of those who

38:13

in certain parts of our country want

38:15

to attack DEI, we

38:18

understand that you can't truly invest

38:20

in the strength of our nation

38:22

if you don't pay attention to

38:24

diversity, equity and inclusion. And it

38:28

came as pro-Palestinian and

38:30

anti-Atlantic cop city protesters returned

38:32

to Emory University's campus and

38:34

as police at the University

38:36

of Georgia in Athens arrested

38:39

16 protesters for trespassing over

38:41

an encampment there. Vice

38:43

President Harris will continue her push on

38:45

economic opportunity next week with a visit

38:47

to Detroit. Joining me now is Bakari

38:49

Sellers, civil rights attorney and author of

38:51

the new book The Moment, thoughts

38:53

on the race reckoning that wasn't

38:55

and how we can all move forward now. Bakari,

38:57

my friend, it is good to see you crossing

38:59

the divide to come over to the other camp

39:02

for this moment. Here's the book. I

39:04

want my copy signed. But let's talk about Kamala Harris

39:06

for just a moment. You're a political strategist as well

39:08

as an author. The sort

39:11

of deployment of her now, particularly to

39:13

the South and to college campuses and

39:15

especially now when you're seeing these campuses roiled

39:17

by pro-Palestinian protests, what do you make of

39:19

it? It's necessary and

39:21

I think that her voice is necessary and I

39:24

think that her message is necessary and sometimes

39:26

and I think we're going to see this as

39:28

we look forward to Joe Biden coming

39:30

to Morehouse College's campus. It's

39:33

not necessarily the message but it's the

39:35

messenger and I feel like she's being

39:37

very well received on these particular campuses.

39:39

Look, these campuses have a history of

39:41

protest and I'm someone

39:43

who decries law enforcement involvement on

39:45

college campuses because as I talked about in the

39:48

moment and I've talked about in my vanishing country,

39:50

my father was shot by law enforcement on

39:52

the college campus and so while I understand

39:54

the balance of the rise of anti-Semitism, I

39:57

understand the fact that we don't need to

39:59

see another baby being killed in

40:01

Gaza. I understand the outcry of

40:03

these protesters. What I don't want

40:05

is someone like Eric Adams using

40:08

this as a as another opportunity

40:10

to have a light or another badge

40:12

or another just opportunity to

40:14

smile in front of a camera

40:16

and integrate law enforcement on college

40:18

campuses because we've seen from South

40:20

Carolina State February 8 1968 to

40:22

Jackson State to

40:25

Kent State that simply does not mix. What

40:28

I do appreciate though is this administration sending

40:30

Kamala Harris to these places to at least

40:32

have these conversations. Do

40:34

you think that the Morehouse visit will be as well

40:36

received? I'm

40:38

interested to see what happens and what I want to

40:40

see from from Joe Biden and again the shameless plug

40:43

of this book as I'm over here talking to you

40:45

and I love you by the way Joy I want

40:49

Joe Biden to pigeonhole black men. I

40:52

don't want him just to spend you

40:54

know dozens of minutes talking about criminal justice reform.

40:56

It is all we want to do is stay

40:59

out of jail or make sure our loved ones

41:01

are out of jail but I would like for

41:03

him to talk about his vision for peace throughout

41:05

the world. What I want him to talk about

41:07

is his vision for voting rights. What I

41:09

wanted to talk about is the role that

41:11

Bakari Sellers and other black men can play

41:13

to ensure that my wife Ellen my daughter

41:15

Kai my other daughter Sadie have you know

41:18

just the ability to make their own decisions

41:20

when it comes to reproductive rights because there

41:22

is a role for us to play. If

41:25

he gets up there and and just still

41:28

just a soundbite from one of my good friends

41:30

Brittany if he gets up there and talks about

41:32

criminal justice reform for 20 minutes I'm gonna write

41:34

myself. Yeah let's talk about this book

41:37

because I mean you come from a civil rights

41:39

legacy family obviously you talked about your father who

41:41

was on these campuses protesting back in the day

41:43

and you also come from a

41:45

political background. What should people

41:47

know about this racial reckoning that didn't happen?

41:50

What will people learn from this book? What

41:53

I want people to realize is a very sobering reflection

41:55

of where we are and maybe it was my youth

41:57

when I even say but I believe that you know

41:59

around 22. with the murders of

42:01

Ahmaud, Brianna and George and COVID. I felt

42:03

like we were on the precipice of change.

42:05

I felt like there was gonna be an

42:07

understanding, an empathy, maybe a third reconstruction, understanding

42:10

what black folk were going through in this

42:12

period in time. And

42:15

we missed that moment. And not only did

42:17

we miss it, but I'd articulate that we're

42:19

going backwards. And so as a millennial parent

42:21

who has to go out here and raise

42:24

children, raise black children, the moment started when

42:26

I was actually crying on my network on

42:28

TV, just trying to tell

42:30

people and help them understand what it meant to

42:32

be black in this country. It went viral. What

42:34

I want people to understand from this book is

42:36

that we've made progress in this country, but we

42:39

still have yet a ways to go. And so

42:41

it's not just a reflection of where we are,

42:43

but we also have prescriptions of how we move

42:45

forward. You may not agree with them all, but

42:47

at least I want people to get off the

42:49

sidelines and begin to have a conversation. You

42:52

have a daughter, a beautiful daughter. And

42:54

we live in a world where your daughter has fewer

42:56

rights than I did when I was born, than your

42:58

mom did by the 1970s. And

43:02

you have the whole South now

43:04

locked in abortion bans. And

43:06

at the same time, you have referenda in

43:08

Florida for not just restoring abortion

43:10

rights, but even restoring, legalizing weed. There is

43:12

this sort of push pull that rights seem

43:14

to be slipping away and coming back. Are

43:17

you optimistic or pessimistic about where

43:19

we are? I'm

43:21

real about where we are. And in the book,

43:23

I articulate the fact that as a millennial parent,

43:25

I may be a parent. I

43:28

realize it's a difficult pill to swallow

43:30

that we may be the first generation that

43:32

does not improve the plight of

43:35

the next generation. And

43:38

my father gave me something better than I inherited.

43:40

And I realized that I may not be able

43:42

to do that for my own children. That's

43:45

a tough pill to swallow. I

43:47

realized that we're in the nadir. I mean,

43:49

Joy, we're in a dark place, but

43:51

I think King said it best. Only when it's darkest can

43:53

you see the stars. I believe in

43:56

this next generation. And I just simply want Sadie

43:58

and Stokely and Kai a better tomorrow than

44:00

they have it yesterday. Yeah,

44:02

absolutely. And, you know, you have, again, you have

44:05

a daughter, Anathon, but there is this sort of

44:07

meme right now that says that black men are

44:09

falling out of politics, pulling away, not just from

44:11

the Democratic Party, but from participation at all. Do

44:13

you believe that that is true? Yes.

44:17

And I have a dedicated

44:19

whole chapter in my nation country. I talk about

44:21

black women a lot and give them their flowers

44:23

while they're living as they should. But

44:25

black men for a very long period of time

44:27

have not been listened to in this process. It's

44:29

a clarion call. The lights are blinking. I mean,

44:31

whether or not we meet them where they are

44:33

and have these conversations and listen to black male

44:36

voters. I don't think, and

44:38

they differ from some of the analysts that come

44:40

on, but this is not a race between Joe

44:42

Biden and Donald Trump. This is a race between

44:44

Joe Biden and Donald Trump and the couch. And

44:47

there is a high probability that black folk,

44:49

particularly black men, will stay at home if

44:51

we do not have, and this

44:54

is, I am speaking directly to

44:56

white progressives. Like, look, it's

44:58

not about race neutral policies, race

45:00

specific solutions for race specific problems.

45:04

This is a book. Y'all pick this up and

45:06

read it so that you can understand where we

45:08

are now. This is one of the brightest brothers

45:10

out there. Bakari Sellers, thank you, my friend. That

45:12

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