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of your favorite breakfast items, including a

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sausage McMuffin. Tonight

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on The Readout. Why

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don't they say, hey, I'm interested in saving

0:57

the democracy for our grandchildren? Well,

1:00

I don't think the election's over yet on that score.

1:04

If you notice traffic was especially snarled in

1:06

New York City today, Aston

1:09

answered. That was President Biden

1:11

in midtown Manhattan today to

1:13

be interviewed by radio legend

1:15

Howard Stern while former President

1:17

Donald Trump was in lower

1:19

Manhattan back in a courthouse

1:21

for his criminal trial. And

1:26

that is where we begin tonight at

1:28

the end of the first week for

1:31

a 12-member jury empaneled in the first

1:33

ever criminal trial of a former

1:35

US president, Donald Trump. Today

1:38

was the final day for the prosecution's

1:40

first witness, the former publisher of the

1:43

National Enquirer, David Pecker. Trump's

1:45

lawyers continued their cross-examination, focusing

1:47

on the theme that the

1:49

catch-and-kill agreement made between Pecker,

1:52

Trump, and Trump's former lawyer

1:54

Michael Cohen was just standard

1:56

operating procedure for Pecker and the National

1:58

Enquirer. They suggested that the court

2:00

be In fact, he admitted, Pecker's actions were

2:02

based on business considerations, and he would

2:04

have done them anyway whether or not he had

2:06

an agreement with Trump. For instance, Pecker

2:09

admitted to Trump's lawyer Emil Bovet

2:11

that the $30,000 payment to

2:15

buy the rights for the former

2:17

doorman's false story that Trump fathered

2:19

an illegitimate child could have led

2:21

to millions of dollars in sales for

2:23

the National Enquirer, if true. Bovet

2:26

asked, and that

2:29

is why you decided to pay Mr.

2:31

Sejuden $30,000, correct? Pecker

2:35

answered yes. Bovet, because you

2:37

could not make him, you could not have

2:39

him taking his story to another publication if

2:41

it was true, right? Pecker,

2:44

that's correct. Bovet, it would

2:46

be too great a loss to AMI to

2:48

lose control of such a story if true,

2:50

right? Pecker, yes.

2:53

However, the prosecution had Pecker explain

2:56

how this agreement was anything but

2:58

standard. While Pecker admitted

3:00

to having coordinated thousands of non-disclosure

3:02

agreements, suppressing stories to help a

3:05

friend or use as leverage with

3:07

a celebrity, he was

3:09

asked by prosecutor Joshua Steinglass, quote,

3:12

How many did you coordinate with a presidential

3:14

candidate for the benefit of a campaign? Pecker,

3:18

it's the only one. Steinglass,

3:21

prior to the arrangement with Trump in August

3:23

2015, did you ever preview with

3:27

a candidate positive stories about that

3:29

candidate or negative stories about that

3:31

candidate's opponents? Pecker, no.

3:35

Steinglass, prior to that arrangement, did you

3:37

ever allow a candidate to accept

3:39

or reject articles? Pecker,

3:42

no. Steinglass, prior to

3:44

the meeting, did AMI ever agree

3:46

to be eyes and ears? Pecker,

3:49

no. for

4:00

payment, she provided her services to

4:02

the publication. But again, the

4:05

prosecution shot down that attempt by

4:07

having Pekker testify once more to

4:09

the real reason Ms. McDougall was

4:11

paid $150,000. Stylinglass.

4:15

Is that true, Mr. Pekker? Was that

4:17

your purpose in locking up the Karen

4:19

McDougall story to influence the election? Pekker.

4:23

Yes. And the fact

4:25

that Pekker agreed to not publish a

4:27

story about a Playboy model's year-long alleged

4:29

affair with a presidential candidate is only

4:31

further proof that this was not just

4:33

about doing good business because Pekker

4:36

admitted that such a story

4:38

would have been, quote, national

4:40

inquirer gold. The

4:42

prosecution asked, at the time

4:45

you entered into the agreement, you had

4:47

zero intention of publication, even if it

4:49

would have helped the bottom line. You

4:51

killed it because it would have hurt

4:53

President Trump, to which Pekker answered,

4:56

correct. And before the

4:58

court wraps for the week, the jury

5:00

heard from two other witnesses. First was

5:02

Trump's longtime assistant and gatekeeper, Rona Graff,

5:05

for a brief line of questioning authenticating

5:07

that both Karen McDougall and

5:09

Stormy Daniels' contact information were

5:12

in Trump's computer. During

5:15

cross-examination, Graff did admit to hearing

5:17

conversations about Daniels potentially

5:19

being thought of as a contestant

5:21

for celebrity apprentice. The

5:23

other witness is much more obscure. One

5:26

of Michael Cohen's former bankers, Gary

5:28

Farrow, who allegedly helped set up

5:30

the home equity line of credit

5:32

through which Cohen paid Daniels. His

5:35

testimony will continue when court

5:37

reconvenes on Tuesday. Joining

5:40

me now is Lisa Rubin, MSNBC legal correspondent

5:42

and Tristan Snell, former assistant attorney

5:44

general for New York and author

5:46

of Taking Down Trump, 12

5:49

Rules for Prosecuting Donald Trump, by Someone Who

5:51

Did It Successfully. Lisa, I'm going to go

5:53

to you first. Hopefully I

5:55

characterize the day properly that probably now.

5:58

Tell me what stood out to you. in court

6:00

today. I think one of the moments

6:02

that stood out to me most was

6:04

one that you just covered because Joshua

6:06

Steinglass from the Manhattan DA's office was

6:08

literally right up to the lunch break

6:10

when he got to that line of

6:12

questioning about National Enquirer Gold. Emil Bovee

6:14

was trying to establish through his cross

6:16

examination that many facets of the arrangement

6:18

between Trump, Cohen and Packer, the thing

6:20

prosecutors have characterized as a conspiracy, were

6:23

just standard operating procedure. He used those

6:25

three words so many times it was

6:27

like his mantra. But, you

6:29

know, Steinglass really poked holes in

6:31

that by showing that the payment to

6:33

Karen McDougall and the purpose to which

6:35

it was put was in fact anything

6:37

but standard operating procedure because what was

6:39

standard operating procedure at the National Enquirer?

6:41

Making lots of money. Right. And

6:44

he got, you know, Packer in his direct

6:46

testimony and in his cross. I thought one

6:48

of the things that he conveyed was that

6:51

his bottom line was in fact more important

6:53

to him at times than Donald Trump. It's

6:55

why that payment for Dino Sajudin, right, he

6:57

said that he would have published it if

7:00

true. He relented at one point and

7:02

said, well, I would have held it until after the

7:04

election. In other words, Donald Trump really mattered to me.

7:06

Yeah. But at the end of

7:08

the day, that story was so juicy. I

7:10

would have published it. That wasn't true of

7:12

the Karen McDougall story. And yet he testified

7:15

that he believed very much the story was

7:17

true, particularly based on his own private conversations

7:19

with Trump who asked him on a variety

7:21

of questions, variety of occasions, how's

7:23

Karen? How's our girl? How's she doing?

7:25

Yeah. It sounds like it was

7:27

a question about her welfare, but really it

7:29

was a question about, is she keeping quiet?

7:32

And is she satisfied with the arrangement? The

7:34

other thing that stood out to me today

7:36

was when Bovee was trying to again on

7:39

his re-cross show that Karen

7:41

McDougall's agreement had value. And he said,

7:43

wouldn't you agree that you published 65

7:46

articles from her, you put her on the cover

7:48

of magazines, wasn't she a celebrity

7:50

in her own right? Didn't her brand have value?

7:52

She's a cowboy model, isn't she a celebrity? Yeah,

7:54

but the problem is David Packer knows celebrity better

7:56

than anyone. Like if you ask someone to draw

7:58

a triangle of the hierarchy. of celebrity in this

8:01

country, David Pecker would probably draw it up on

8:03

a whiteboard faster than you can say, a beautiful

8:05

mind, right? And David Pecker was like, well, I

8:07

guess her brand has value to her, but I

8:09

don't put her in the category of celebrity. In

8:11

other words, no, this was not

8:13

a real utility to me. This was, again,

8:15

to satisfy her and her dreams of relaunching

8:18

her career, but as far as I was

8:20

concerned, she was no celebrity. She

8:22

might be the most sort of sad character in this whole thing,

8:24

because she really thought she was gonna become famous and be on

8:26

the red carpet hosting and being a journalist

8:28

and being an anchor, and that wasn't gonna happen. A

8:31

real celebrity actually is Arnold Schwarzenegger. Like, he

8:33

actually is a celebrity who became governor, who

8:36

also had a catch and kill deal with

8:38

this same publication, but the prosecution and

8:40

the defense have sort of tumbled back and

8:42

forth on how that was different. How

8:44

was it different? Yeah, I mean, it's

8:46

not the same, it wasn't the same kind of

8:49

dollar figures, the timing wasn't the same, and critically

8:51

Pecker's testimony about them is different. I think that

8:53

there is a lot of back and forth there.

8:55

The defense managed to score some points a little

8:58

bit there. I think that was probably one of

9:00

the more effective bits of the whole day for

9:02

them, but at the end of the day, being

9:04

able to come back on re-cross and confirm, it

9:07

was definitely not the same, it was not with

9:09

the same intent, and intent is everything here, all

9:11

about the intent. Why are we starting with Pecker?

9:13

Because it starts with that 2015 meeting, where

9:17

they had this arrangement, it was all part

9:19

of a deliberate process to help Trump get

9:21

to the White House. Let me read just

9:23

a little bit of this, and this is

9:25

when Bovee is now questioning, this

9:29

is about Pecker's testimony that Cohen had

9:31

told him, Jeff Sessions is the Attorney

9:34

General, he's in Donald Trump's pocket. Bovee

9:36

then asked whether that incident is among

9:38

those that colored his view that Cohen

9:40

is prone to exaggeration. Pecker said yes,

9:42

and then during redirect, Pecker is then

9:44

asked about average payments, when they do these catch

9:46

and kill stories. They say, you testified

9:49

on cross that Arnold Schwarzenegger announced his

9:51

candidacy for governor, when it afterwards some

9:53

30 or 40 women came forward, and

9:55

that you told Mr. Bovee that you

9:58

paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. to

10:00

kill those stories. Becker, yes. What

10:02

was the average of those payments? Becker. The

10:05

largest was $20,000. The others were up to $2,000. Just the doorman got $30,000.

10:07

So it's different

10:12

degrees. Totally different degrees. And then, yeah,

10:14

you're looking at these giant six-figure payments

10:17

to McDougall and to Daniels. It's

10:19

a totally different ballgame. Yeah. And

10:21

also, he didn't admit to

10:24

campaign finance violations, although he might have committed

10:26

state crimes in the Arnold Schwarzenegger case.

10:28

In this case, he admitted it. And he

10:31

was subject to investigation, right? The reason that

10:33

David Becker said he was even sensitive to

10:35

the campaign finance angle of paying McDougall in

10:37

the first place, which is what caused him

10:40

to lard it up with services, right? He

10:42

was sensitive about that because as a function

10:44

of what he had done for Arnold Schwarzenegger,

10:46

he had caught the attention of regulators and

10:49

investigators, and he narrowly escaped. So he knew

10:51

that that was a problem. He tried to

10:53

structure the kind of McDougall pay-out

10:56

agreement in a way that would

10:58

evade campaign finance problems. The only

11:00

issue is, as Josh Seinglass very

11:02

expertly elicited from him, while they

11:04

did hire outside counsel to review

11:06

that agreement, they didn't tell

11:09

that outside counsel about, for example, the

11:11

August 2015 meeting at which they had

11:13

that agreement. They didn't represent to him

11:15

all of the facts that a lawyer

11:17

would need to render advice. In other

11:19

words, advice was meaningless because he was

11:21

reviewing the agreement in isolation. He took

11:23

a half hour glance. Literally, Becker said,

11:25

we paid him for a half an

11:27

hour of his services and he passed

11:29

muster, but they didn't give him all

11:31

the information that a real election law

11:34

expert would need to basically say, yeah,

11:36

I don't think this is kosher. Okay.

11:38

Let's talk about Ronograph. What is the value of

11:40

Ronograph and what does she provide? What does she

11:42

do for the prosecution or for the other side

11:44

today? Yeah. So, you know, Rona, just for everybody's

11:47

background is very interesting because we haven't talked about

11:49

her as much in all of these cases, but

11:52

she is really up there in the

11:54

inner inner inner circle for Trump with

11:57

Michael Cohen, with Allen Weisselberg, the people

11:59

that he. literally spent the most, the most,

12:02

had the most communication with it was like a

12:04

personal assistant, personal assistant, but was one of the

12:06

key gatekeepers. We have to remember the Trump organization

12:08

really only ever had about 14 people working for

12:11

it. Yep. Trump only had about, you know, three,

12:13

four people that he was talking to on a

12:15

regular basis. And Rona was one of them handled

12:17

all of his communications. Right?

12:19

So why, why was she important? What did she

12:22

do today? It's that a lot of

12:24

it was to authenticate a lot of the documents,

12:26

a lot of the communications that we're going to

12:28

be seeing later in the trial. And

12:31

particularly then it was the placement of

12:33

Stormy Daniels at the property at Trump

12:35

Tower. And critically the

12:37

Outlook contact card. Yeah, that

12:39

she knew that she of

12:42

Daniels and McDougall that were sitting there in Trump's

12:44

Rolodex. Yeah. And what's the significance of that? I

12:46

mean, other than that, it means that Trump knew

12:48

these women. Look, the

12:51

prosecutors don't have to prove that Trump

12:53

actually had relationships with either Stormy

12:56

Daniels or Karen McDougall. On

12:58

the other hand, to the extent that they

13:00

have circumstantial evidence that there was a real

13:02

relationship of some sort with both women, that

13:05

increases the likelihood that jurors will believe he

13:07

had the motive to cover this up and

13:09

keep these people quiet. One of the things

13:11

that Tristan and I were talking about before

13:14

we came on set is the contact information

13:16

looks a little bit different. The Stormy Daniels

13:18

contact literally says, Stormy, first name, last name,

13:20

Stormy, it has a single phone number. And

13:23

that's all it has. Yeah, but if you

13:25

look at Karen McDougall's, Karen McDougall's is far

13:27

more detailed. It had two addresses for her,

13:30

a current and a former had an email

13:32

address and a cell phone. And notably, it

13:34

has her first and last name. This is

13:36

not a person Donald Trump didn't know. And

13:38

Ronigram also testified, look, Trump doesn't use email.

13:41

We all know that, right? Yeah. So I

13:43

set up his Outlook contacts for him. Basically,

13:45

I was maintaining his electronic Rolodex. This was

13:47

for his benefit. These aren't my contacts, right?

13:49

They're his they were for him. The other

13:52

thing that Ronigram did was she's eminently credible.

13:54

You could tell she didn't want to be

13:56

there. She admitted she didn't want to be there,

13:58

but she really didn't give prosecutors. some of the

14:00

admissions that they wanted. They were trying to

14:03

establish that Trump had a business reason to

14:05

have Stormy in his Rolodex, in particular, that

14:07

he was looking at her as a plausible

14:09

candidate for the celebrity apprentice. But

14:12

she wouldn't necessarily go there. She said,

14:14

yeah, I have a vague recollection based

14:16

on some office chatter that she was

14:18

talked about as an interesting candidate. But

14:20

never did she say, I heard it

14:22

directly from Trump. I overheard Trump talking

14:25

about her. Rather, she saw her once

14:27

in the reception area of the business offices

14:29

at Trump Tower that she knew she was

14:32

an adult film star. But

14:34

she never had a conversation with Trump about

14:36

her. And theoretically, if she had been a

14:38

plausible candidate to be on the celebrity apprentice,

14:40

Wernher Graf, who was featured in that series

14:42

fairly prominently, would have been close enough to

14:44

know that. I never watched The Apprentice. I didn't know that she

14:46

was on the show. But I guess she was. Who's

14:48

paying for her lawyers? That's interesting. Yes,

14:51

that would be Donald Trump. Yes.

14:53

So yeah, yeah. But that's the

14:55

thing. It actually works, as Lisa

14:57

was saying, in the prosecution's favor,

15:00

because then she looks a lot

15:02

more impartial. If she's

15:04

saying things that help put more bricks

15:06

in the foundation of the prosecution's case,

15:08

and you know that she's not, she

15:10

doesn't have some sort of axe to

15:13

grind here, she still really likes Donald

15:15

Trump. Just like Pecker does too. Pecker

15:17

does too. So they're both very good witnesses. I think

15:19

it was a very effective set of witnesses for the

15:22

prosecution. All right, both of them, both of my two

15:24

guests are staying right here. Lisa and Tristan are going

15:26

to stick around because we have much more on the

15:28

trial and the stunning legal developments. We're also going to

15:30

talk about that gag order and whether that's ever going

15:32

to get involved. Today

15:38

and every day Planned Parenthood is

15:40

committed to ensuring that everyone has

15:42

the information and resources they need to

15:45

make their own decisions about their bodies,

15:47

including abortion care. Lawmakers who

15:49

oppose abortion are attacking Planned Parenthood,

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which means affordable, high-quality, basic health

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care for more than two million

15:56

people is at stake. The right to control our bodies

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and get the health care we need. need has

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been stolen from us. And now politicians

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in nearly every state have introduced bills

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that would block people from getting the

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sexual and reproductive care they need. Planned

16:09

Parenthood believes everyone deserves health care. It's

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a human right. That's why

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they fight every day to push for

16:16

common-sense policies to protect our right to

16:18

control our own bodies and against policies

16:20

that interfere with decisions between patients and

16:23

their doctor. Planned Parenthood needs

16:25

your support now more than ever.

16:27

With supporters like you, we

16:29

can reclaim our rights and

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protect and expand access to

16:34

abortion care. Visit plannedparenthood.org/future. That's

16:37

Planned parenthood.org/future. Back

16:42

with me, Lisa Rubin and Tristan Snell. Let's

16:44

talk about the banker. His name is Mr.

16:47

Farrow. Gary Farrow. What

16:49

did we hear from him today? Gary

16:52

Farrow gave a lot of fairly dry

16:54

testimony at the beginning because... He's a

16:56

banker. He's a banker and they were

16:58

using him in the same way that

17:00

they used Ronograph to authenticate some documents

17:02

that will be crucial when they thread

17:04

together the story in their closing argument

17:06

several weeks from now. But Gary Farrow

17:08

was Michael Cohen's banker at First Republic

17:10

Bank, which is a private bank that

17:12

primarily caters to high net worth individuals.

17:14

He testified that he'd been assigned to

17:16

Michael Cohen's accounts because Michael Cohen had

17:18

a banker who left the bank and

17:20

someone decided Gary Farrow should service him

17:23

because Gary Farrow was A, knowledgeable but

17:25

be more importantly dealt with challenging people

17:27

very well. That's the Gary Farrow that

17:29

he didn't find Michael Cohen challenging but

17:31

that when he wanted something immediately he

17:34

was very clear to say this is

17:36

urgent. And then the prosecutors went with

17:38

Gary Farrow through a series of emails through

17:40

which Michael Cohen says I have an LLC

17:42

I need to set up an LLC account

17:44

immediately. He had already had several accounts at

17:47

that bank. What they are going to use

17:49

Gary Farrow to do is establish that through

17:51

the account that Michael Cohen sets up on

17:53

the basis of misrepresentations about what his LLC

17:55

did. He said it was a management consulting

17:57

firm that did HR. and

18:00

other things in the real estate industry. It did

18:02

not, but they're gonna use him to show that

18:04

that's how Keith Davidson, Stormy Daniels' lawyer, got the

18:06

$130,000 payment that Cohen made on Trump's behalf. And

18:12

then through that repayment

18:14

scheme that the prosecutors are gonna get to,

18:17

then covered up how

18:20

Cohen was being repaid, paid him some extra

18:22

money to sort of gross him up for

18:24

tax purposes and the like. The one thing

18:26

I think is really interesting about Gary Farrow

18:28

Joy is that past reporting shows that somebody

18:30

at First Republic Bank flagged the

18:32

wire transfer to Keith Davidson as suspicious activities

18:34

as the Treasury Department. We don't know who

18:36

at the bank did it. The bank is

18:38

now defunct. If it turns out to be

18:40

Gary Farrow, it's gonna be a whole lot

18:42

more important than just the person who authenticates

18:44

documents. So you wrote the 12 rules, Tristan.

18:46

I mean, what they're doing here, I'm, you

18:49

know, they're telling a story, right? I

18:51

mean, we've now understood that you

18:53

had David Pecker, who we've established,

18:55

pays off the first two

18:57

potential bombshell stories to

19:00

get rid of them. Then he says, I'm not paying anymore.

19:02

I'm not giving any more money, but Michael Cohen

19:04

is still saying, you gotta pay this third one

19:07

because now we've got this Access Hollywood problem, this

19:09

third one that the porn star, we gotta pay

19:11

it. And he's like, nope. So Michael's gotta figure

19:13

out how to do it himself. Right. So

19:16

he sets up an LLC and he sets up

19:18

some not true things and then he pays. Is that a

19:20

smart way to do this? And do you think that they're

19:22

establishing that as a story that can actually win a case?

19:25

Yeah, I think they're putting all of this together.

19:27

We're seeing the bricks get put together. You've gotta

19:29

be very thorough with all of these things, but

19:31

then you do have to tell a story. It

19:33

can't just be, you know, I think this Pharaoh

19:36

thing is gonna be, if it isn't from

19:38

him that we're gonna get some interesting

19:40

revelations, at the very least it's going

19:43

to establish the predicate on which they

19:45

build other things through documents, but

19:47

you gotta be able to build that whole story. Pecker

19:49

did a great job of both. They were able to

19:51

use him very effectively to say, look,

19:53

we're gonna begin at the beginning of this chronology

19:56

to help it be a

19:58

structured story. with

20:00

a beginning and middle and an end that

20:02

everybody can understand. Everybody likes to think in

20:05

sort of a chronological beginning middle and end

20:07

story, if they can, right? And you gotta

20:09

be able to do this to communicate effectively.

20:11

It's a big part of how you take

20:14

a giant mess of documents and witnesses and

20:16

turn it into something that's actually gonna get

20:18

the result that you want in the litigation.

20:21

And I think that they did a good job of setting that

20:23

up. And I think that this

20:25

is all leading up to probably Michael Cohen

20:27

being one of the last witnesses, the

20:30

very last one. If I were them, I

20:32

would close with Cohen. Yeah, interesting. And I think that's what

20:34

they really, let me very quickly. Do we have time? Can

20:36

we play this, Trent, sound bite? Play it real quick. I

20:41

thought it would be a terrible thing.

20:43

And there were opportunities, obviously, and

20:46

good, strong control. Everything

20:48

was good, but I did not want to. And

20:51

I thought it would be a terrible thing for our country. They

20:54

don't care. These people are radical

20:56

lunatics. They don't care. And

20:58

they have to be very careful with what they're doing

21:00

because it comes back to bite. I'm

21:03

not sure, at least if he was talking

21:05

about the people in this courtroom, but he's

21:07

supposed to be under a gag order somewhat.

21:09

He seems like he's violating it every day. I don't know this

21:12

thing about not putting Hillary Clinton in jail does it,

21:14

but do you expect to hear something on this gag

21:16

order next week? I do. We

21:18

have a third alleged set of

21:20

violations. While Marcheon, the judge here, has

21:22

already held a hearing on the first

21:24

two sets, which together comprise 10

21:27

alleged violations. There are now four

21:29

more. The most recent of them, Joy, I think

21:31

comes the closest to witness intimidation, if not outright

21:33

tampering. Because he's asked, you know, what do you

21:36

think of Pekker's testimony so far? And I'm reading

21:38

to you from the transcript. He says, he has

21:40

been very nice. I mean, he has been, Steve

21:42

has been very nice, a nice guy. In

21:45

about five minutes or less, David Pekker's gonna

21:47

walk into this room to continue to testify.

21:49

And the way that the prosecutors characterize this,

21:51

it sounds really benevolent, right? David Pekker's a

21:53

nice guy, been my friend for decades. He

21:55

says, this is a message to Pekker, not

21:57

you have been nice. Been nice. It's

22:00

a message to others. Again,

22:02

you know, this is, we'll see what

22:04

happens. It's mob stuff. I've got my carrot,

22:06

I've got my stick. There you go. And in this

22:09

case it was the carrot, but like, they're sort of

22:11

an implied, if you're not very nice. You're not nice,

22:13

what happens to you? Tristan Snell,

22:15

Lisa Rubin, thank you all very much.

22:17

And coming up, pro-Palestinian protests on college

22:19

campuses continue across the country despite an

22:21

increased crackdown by police. I'll talk to

22:24

a Columbia professor who's been on the

22:26

front lines of this free speech today.

22:41

From Free economics radio, a new series

22:43

about a role model we didn't know

22:45

we needed. So

22:47

many crazy things really did

22:50

happen to him. The

22:52

physicist Richard Feynman was one of the

22:54

most brilliant scientists of his generation, but

22:56

he was also a troublemaker,

22:58

an obsessive, and

23:01

a man who spoke truth to power. Along

23:04

the way, he created a blueprint

23:06

for how to lead a life of

23:08

honest inquiry. He was a brilliant

23:10

theoretical physicist, but what really made him stand out

23:12

was his humanity. The curious,

23:15

brilliant, vanishing Mr. Feynman on

23:17

Free economics radio. Time

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for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. Mornings

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or combo meal. Single item at

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regular price. Behind

23:55

every protest movement is a message, a call for change,

23:57

a convention, a call for change. eviction

24:00

that draws, for example, thousands of

24:02

young people to set up encampments

24:05

on U.S. campuses, coast to coast.

24:08

Since last week, protests at Columbia

24:11

University over the bloodshed in Gaza

24:13

have sparked campus demonstrations across the

24:15

country. Its message,

24:17

however, has gotten a little

24:19

lost amid ugly

24:21

politics, allegations of anti-Semitism, as

24:24

well as the decision by

24:26

Columbia's polarizing president to call in

24:28

the police to clear pro-Palestinian protesters

24:30

from the campus. The

24:33

students are calling for accountability over Israel's

24:35

war on Gaza, where, as one doctor

24:37

said to NBC News, the smell of death

24:40

is everywhere. This week,

24:42

an NBC News crew witnessed the exhumation

24:44

of dozens of Palestinian bodies from

24:46

one of the mass graves that

24:48

were dug around the Nasser Medical

24:50

Complex in Konyunov. The

24:53

United Nations has called for an

24:55

independent investigation into two mass graves

24:57

found after Israeli forces withdrew from

24:59

hospitals in Gaza. The reaction

25:02

of some college administrations in the

25:04

U.S. has not been to acknowledge

25:06

the horrors these young people are

25:08

reacting to, but rather to

25:10

turn on the protesters. And

25:12

the fulcrum of what is now a national

25:14

campus protest movement has been at Columbia, whose

25:17

students want the university to withdraw

25:19

any investments in companies they deem

25:21

as profiting from Israeli foreign policy

25:24

on Gaza and the West Bank. But

25:26

that's not all. Many students

25:29

and faculty oppose the administration's policies,

25:31

including opening a new center in Tel

25:33

Aviv. For at least a

25:36

year, the Tel Aviv Center has

25:38

drawn criticism from faculty members who

25:40

say the university should reconsider because

25:42

of Israel's human rights record and

25:44

ongoing political crises. Joining me

25:46

now is Catherine Frank, professor of law

25:48

and director of the Center for

25:50

Gender and Sexuality Law at Columbia

25:53

University. She was one of the

25:55

first faculty members to oppose the new center in

25:57

Tel Aviv. Also with us, a friend

25:59

of the Dean Obadala, MSNBC columnist

26:01

and host of the

26:04

eponymous Dean Obadala, Sean Sears, ex-em. Thank you both

26:06

for being here. Professor Frank, I want to start

26:08

with you, because my

26:10

understanding, at least from sources at

26:12

Columbia, is that this center, this

26:14

Columbia International Center in Tel Aviv,

26:17

was at the root of the original

26:19

protest on campus. Can you explain

26:21

what your opposition to this center was? Well,

26:25

I wouldn't say it's figured it's the root at the beginning

26:27

of the protests. What really

26:29

motivated the protests on campus was the

26:31

genocide in Gaza. We

26:33

have many students who have family members who've been

26:36

killed in Gaza and who

26:38

were directly impacted by what we're

26:40

seeing unfold before our eyes. But

26:43

there has been a movement on campus to

26:46

criticize the university's commitment to open up

26:48

a new global center in

26:50

Tel Aviv, and that is a many years' ongoing

26:53

objection to creating a new global

26:55

center there. And one of

26:57

the primary reasons is that we don't need it.

26:59

We already have a global center in Amman, Jordan,

27:02

where anyone from the region

27:04

can go. Jordan does not bar

27:06

admission to people on the basis

27:08

of their citizenship, however, Israel does.

27:10

And so there are many people on

27:13

our campus who hold passports, students and

27:15

faculty alike, who would not be able

27:17

to use that global center in Tel

27:20

Aviv, because the Israeli government bars entry

27:22

to people from those countries. There

27:25

is not one other global center that

27:27

Columbia has where the government that hosts

27:29

that center actually by

27:31

law bars certain people with certain

27:33

passports from entering that country.

27:35

And so that violates, we've argued, Title

27:38

VI of the Higher Ed Act, which

27:40

says that we can't discriminate at

27:43

Columbia University on the basis of national

27:45

origin or citizenship. So some

27:47

of our students can't use that center, but

27:49

the Amman Center would work just fine for

27:51

the kinds of regional meetings that we hold

27:54

at global centers. And, you know,

27:56

Dean, that kind of really does play up the piece

27:58

of a lot of this is that people do. don't know the

28:00

internal politics in Israel. Even some

28:03

of the protesters may not know

28:05

the details of it. But one

28:07

of those policies does bar Palestinians

28:10

from doing certain things even in the country, even

28:12

if they're citizens inside Israel. Even

28:14

in the Israeli administrations, various governments, especially

28:16

now and now, have banned Palestinian Americans

28:19

from getting off the plane and going

28:21

into Israel if they've been critical of

28:23

Israel, if they're in any way involved

28:25

in an organization that the Israeli government

28:27

has deemed unacceptable to them, they're

28:30

not violent, they're not involved in any kind of violent

28:32

movement, they're involved in advocating for Palestinian

28:34

humanity. They ban them. So you have

28:36

that going on. And within Israel itself,

28:39

I wonder if the Israeli Arabs, the

28:41

Palestinians within there will have the opportunity

28:43

to go to school or not. They

28:45

suffer discrimination much the same way that

28:47

people of color suffer in America. On paper, you

28:49

have equal rights. In reality, we know your

28:52

second-class citizen. Professor Frankie, and

28:54

I apologize for mispronouncing your name the first time, you

28:56

came up in this hearing that

28:58

Dr. Shafik, the president of Columbia University,

29:00

appeared at, in which she did seem

29:03

to be trying to appease the

29:05

Elise Stefanik's of the world and the things

29:07

that she said about her own students. But

29:09

here was the part in which Ms. Stefanik

29:12

asked about you. Let

29:15

me ask about Professor Catherine Frank from

29:17

the Columbia Law School, who said that

29:19

all Israeli students who have served in

29:21

the IDF are dangerous and shouldn't be

29:24

on campus. What disciplinary action has been

29:26

taken against that professor? I

29:29

agree with you that those comments are

29:31

completely unacceptable and discriminatory. But I'm asking

29:34

you what disciplinary action has been taken.

29:40

She has been spoken to by a very senior

29:42

person in the administration, and she has said that

29:44

that was not what she intended to say. What

29:48

did you intend to say, and were you spoken to by

29:50

a senior official, and who might that be? I

29:53

mean, that was an appalling moment for the

29:55

president of our university. She knows

29:57

I did not say those things. spoken

30:00

to her about that. What

30:02

representative Stefanik was saying was an absolute

30:04

lie and a fabrication. I

30:07

have discussed how we've had problems on

30:09

our campus with certain people who come

30:11

to campus coming right out of their

30:13

military service and that transition

30:15

from the state of mind one needs to be

30:18

a soldier to the state of mind one needs

30:20

to be a student or different states

30:22

of mind and that transition can be

30:24

difficult. But so she knows I didn't

30:26

say those things but even more importantly

30:29

any investigation of any faculty

30:31

member or student at

30:33

a job or at a school is confidential.

30:36

She should have said we have

30:38

a process for investigating bias

30:41

by faculty or students. We are

30:43

pursuing that process as

30:45

robustly as we can and if

30:47

anybody is found to have committed anti-Semitic

30:49

or other bias they will receive a

30:52

sanction but I cannot comment on

30:54

specific personnel matters for her to

30:56

turn on three of us based

31:00

on falsehoods in an open hearing is

31:03

absolutely appalling. And you know

31:05

Dean it does feel like these university

31:07

professors these campus administrations are terrified of

31:10

the right and they are and so

31:12

what you have is a situation where the proud

31:14

voice have been seen on the Columbia campus.

31:16

Now they have gained admission to the campus

31:18

and have been allowed on. Gavin McInnes founder

31:20

of both Vice News oddly enough and the

31:22

proud voice was seen on campus by several

31:24

students. Our reporter Antonia Hilton also

31:27

spotted him on campus where you

31:29

have seen professors college professors screaming

31:31

I am a professor I am a

31:33

professor as they are thrown to the

31:36

ground at Emory University in Atlanta masses

31:38

of teachers barred from their

31:40

own campus. I think we have video of one of the protests

31:42

in which the police officer was thrown to the ground. And

31:45

this woman is screaming I am a professor of

31:47

economics. I am a professor of economics

31:49

as I thrown to the ground. That scene is playing out

31:52

all over the Country And then on the other

31:54

side you have got students like this young student

31:56

Kamani James who now has become the thing that

31:58

everyone wants to talk about. Man

32:00

who made some really strange an unfortunate remarks

32:02

about Zionist not reason enough deserving to live

32:04

in that kind of thing. Army.

32:06

And I will not. The Are Times notes the he was not

32:09

a part of the protest movement at the time he said them

32:11

said he became a part of it. Your. Thoughts

32:13

on all of this. World. There's

32:15

There's always a look at it as you say one thing on a

32:17

personal level that. I wish my late

32:19

father was Palestinian was alive to see

32:22

people protesting a very campuses for Paulsen

32:24

you met. He added overwhelmingly the

32:26

students are they're all peaceful. We've seen

32:28

some engage in rhetoric that that the

32:30

a terrible and it may have a

32:32

look that they don't know labs they

32:34

just don't Just a second look at

32:36

interviews. Do anything about Jews anti Jewish

32:38

of don't be on the side of

32:40

Thousand John helping would have the best

32:42

of this. Those people interfaith Jewish, Christian,

32:44

Muslim, all different backgrounds together sing we

32:46

sent of repels New Mary I wish

32:48

my way father could see this. It

32:50

would be something that he never saw

32:52

his lifetime. In an era where people

32:54

talk about. So I love the peaceful

32:57

protesters that are defined as move with people

32:59

know why I council's to phonic my Johnson

33:01

want to go with national guard and fisher

33:03

Donald Trump demonize Black Lives Matter policy and

33:05

protests but the things the January Six terrorists

33:07

because of the same skin color of him

33:09

and he agrees with them down as he

33:11

says that the people who marched at the

33:14

University of Virginia who are neo nazis literally

33:16

saved you for not replace that. Were.

33:18

Very fine people. What a world us from

33:20

as a Catherine. Frankie thank you very much

33:22

Stayed over dollar my friend. Thank you so much

33:24

for me Up While Trump was stuck in court

33:26

today, President Biden gave a surprise. Interview with

33:28

the one and only Howard Stern. You

33:30

are Going To stick. Around to hear.

33:40

It it would notice is everybody okay

33:42

and you see this incredible looking women

33:44

said soy. So to get away with

33:46

things like upgraded I was truly a

33:49

woman with. Great. Viewed as

33:51

would have a couple times you've

33:53

slept with or without even hesitations

33:55

My my daughter's beautiful his entourage.

33:57

Either way, your daughter. Where

34:02

do they get the stop? Remember that

34:04

settles on a piece Heard us more

34:07

than three dozen times on Howard Stern

34:09

show throughout the. Ninety Nineties and

34:11

early Two thousand know Trump's final

34:13

appearance on. The show. Within twenty

34:15

fifteen. Stern famously called Trump one

34:17

of the best guess because he

34:20

was unfiltered. If. Anyone knows? Trump is

34:22

Howard Stern and Back And Twenty Twenty Stern said

34:24

there was something else they both had in common.

34:27

They both hate trump. Supporters He

34:29

told his listeners quote one.

34:31

Thing Donald: love the celebrities. He

34:33

loves the famous. The oddity in

34:35

all of this is it the

34:38

people Trump despises most. Love

34:40

him the most. This. Morning While

34:42

Stearns former favorite guest looking haggard, was

34:44

struggling to stay awake in a court

34:46

room like any other criminal defendant, President

34:48

Joe Biden was sitting across from Stone

34:50

for an hour and a half, chatting

34:52

about a wide range of issues from

34:54

the death of his first wife, his

34:56

subsequent thoughts of suicide, and what might

34:58

happen in the next seven months. To.

35:02

You can be schools in secret were

35:04

guys. Go listen. I can say publicly

35:06

but on for you're not going to

35:08

vote for you. I'm a republican but

35:10

screw with our temple for businesses torn

35:12

about ending the democracy will loosen vote

35:14

for most gruesome. And do

35:16

And you say to them, you coward,

35:18

Why don't you? Why don't you say

35:20

something publicly. Winners: Jeb Bush. Where's George

35:23

Bush? Winner of these guys? Were with.

35:25

While. We are worth one. Whoopi say

35:27

hey, I'm interested in saving democracy for our

35:29

grandchildren's. Will. Handle losing

35:32

my son's room and squirm. To

35:35

me now, is Michelangelo signal really house

35:37

of the Michelangelo thing really so unfair?

35:39

It's exempts and Ben Collins, former Nbc

35:42

News reporters and the brand new. Guess

35:44

is cel. Of

35:46

the satirical website. The Onion

35:49

and we can talk about that made it. I'm

35:51

so excited about it But I first want to

35:53

start talking about this arms this interview and I'm

35:55

gonna start with you Michael Big Mike because you

35:57

are the the radio guy here. Three.

35:59

Hundred Thirty. 63 million people subscribed to Sirius

36:01

XM. I'm one of them. About 66 million

36:04

people listened. 60% of that

36:06

audience is listening to Stern. The New York

36:08

Times is big mad that this interview isn't with them.

36:11

And instead of going to the New York Times, which

36:13

has been very pissy, that

36:16

the Biden team won't send him over to them. And

36:18

he was in New York, he could have rolled by the time.

36:20

They were like, nope, we're going to Stern.

36:23

Your thoughts. Yeah, this was like

36:25

an amazing get

36:27

for Howard, but also it was

36:29

a perfect thing for Biden to do because these are

36:31

the people he needs to reach. He's

36:34

all about trying to get all of those people

36:36

who may not be plugged into politics, who may

36:38

not be following things right now. And

36:40

for the New York Times, they

36:43

think they're the only game in town that

36:45

you have to speak to them. That they

36:48

are the paper of record, yes, but

36:52

not all the time. And they haven't been treating the

36:54

president right. They haven't been treating the Biden

36:57

family right. Hunter Biden, all these stories. And then

36:59

we remember what they did with Hillary Clinton and

37:01

the email. So the president and his team are

37:03

like, we're going to speak to all these other

37:05

outlets and reach people in a lot of different

37:07

ways. And you know what's interesting, Ben, I mean,

37:09

you've got this reporting that

37:11

they've quietly been pushing stories about

37:13

Biden's age and that sort of thing is

37:15

perceived by the Biden campaign. So they're making

37:18

the decision, no, we're going to go to

37:20

Stern. Stern is one of these guys who

37:22

does appeal to the everyday guy. He's sort

37:24

of like almost like a Joe Rogan similar,

37:26

but like a little older version of that

37:28

kind of listener. And he's somebody who slipped

37:30

on Trump and said, no, I believe in

37:32

vaccines during COVID. He was like, I'm done.

37:34

I believe in vaccines. I don't believe in

37:36

Donald Trump. So he kind of feels like

37:38

a perfect place for Biden to go. Yeah,

37:41

I mean, talk radio is the heart

37:43

and soul of the GOP. It has

37:45

been for many

37:47

decades, three or four decades now, right? So

37:50

for the guy who created Shock Jockdom,

37:52

like this guy, it's kind of remarkable.

37:55

But it also shows you that, you

37:57

know, you can grow. You

37:59

can grow. Talking about all that stuff

38:01

and you also can grow. From.

38:04

Realizing you can still be at like as

38:06

fun stupid idiot on the radio and also

38:08

care about democracy and you can be like

38:10

at. Like. A silly guy who liked

38:12

stupid stuff and also be like it would

38:15

be nice if my grandson. Lived.

38:17

In a democracy which to be know it's

38:19

it's a very basic yeah someone in this

38:21

country like a debt default this whole thing

38:23

it's very first more the good idea from

38:26

the by and have been to try to

38:28

get regular people. Second of all shows you

38:30

that maybe it's the New York Times is

38:32

out of such. As you know,

38:34

maybe it's them that look what we shall see. less

38:36

of that. Meeting. People Adam news that me

38:39

the story Michelangelo's Many you talk about

38:41

it's one's inner doctor. Oz insulates Mara

38:43

law though fundraiser with the Milan he

38:45

at Trump didn't even get Molony to

38:47

go to court with them to support

38:49

a my is on trial. But.

38:52

She's doing a fundraiser with Caitlin Center.

38:54

Why the Lgbt community hanging with her?

38:56

What is happening? This was like a

38:58

closeted gay fundraiser I mean Milan and

39:00

Trump as and been anywhere. And then

39:02

they decided this was gonna be her

39:04

for way into the Twenty Twenty Four

39:06

campaign. But they didn't want to get

39:08

the christian right while alarm so the

39:10

kind of kept a very quiet. The

39:12

reporters couldn't get any information about it's

39:14

before time about what was happening and

39:16

then they couldn't get much after would.

39:18

And then it turned out to be

39:20

a pitiful turn out because what. Lgbt

39:22

to people are going to be

39:24

supporting. Downtown.

39:26

Santa most horrible president for Lgbt and

39:28

he the soaks. I think didn't He

39:31

turned out like sixty. People with air. And

39:33

then I saw reports that like. Sixty.

39:36

percent of the sixty were heterosexual women so

39:38

i don't know maybe there were twenty gay

39:41

guys who ask a republicans who i don't

39:43

know what jobs and dance and seventy three

39:45

substances that are now we are that's less

39:47

than other story here been you are now

39:50

the ceo of the idea which is awesome

39:52

we're going to pull up the us mercilessness

39:54

and i i'm very lucky that i got

39:56

a new this was coming what i what

39:59

other people that I'm an FOB,

40:01

I'm a friend of Ben. But here

40:03

it is when you took up the onion. You

40:06

guys used to post some hilarious pieces before you,

40:08

pre-ben, in the pre-ben world. Here

40:11

they are, shirtless Biden with

40:14

his Ray-Bans washing his Trans Am

40:16

and that kind of thing. What are you guys

40:18

gonna do with stories like, I don't know, Kristi

40:20

Noem wrote about killing her dog. She

40:22

said that she killed Cricket, a 14

40:24

month old, because

40:26

I hated that dog. And

40:28

Cricket proved untrainable. What are you gonna do

40:31

with that? It's

40:34

pretty hard to top it, but I'm sure the writers

40:36

room will come together on Monday morning and have a

40:38

lot of dog killing jokes to the room. I

40:42

actually don't know where you go with the dog killing, but

40:44

I guess, cause you know, one of the others that topped

40:46

a little bit. But

40:48

they'll find a way, they're professionals, Troy. They

40:50

will find a way to make the dog

40:52

killing thing funny. The thing about it, to

40:54

bring you both of you guys in here,

40:56

apparently, Michael Angel, this is something

40:58

that Kristi Noem thinks is gonna help her with

41:01

Trump. She wants to be VP. And

41:03

she believes that Donald Trump will like the fact

41:05

that she shot her puppy. Yeah, well, she put

41:08

it in the book, right, to audition. I can

41:10

be more sadistic than the others. I can

41:12

help, you know, if I can do this to

41:14

dogs, I can do this to a lot of

41:16

people. Maybe the people you wanna round up and

41:19

put in camps. It's horrifying. Let's

41:21

talk very quickly before we move on to the

41:23

next thing, Ben. Number one, how in the world

41:25

did you end up at the onion? Please

41:28

explain. I mean,

41:30

so I thought, to be clear

41:33

with you, Joy, we knew it

41:35

was for sale and we were afraid somebody

41:38

might buy it and kill it. Elon

41:40

Musk has attempted to buy the onion in the past.

41:43

Oh, God, no. And couldn't? Yeah, I know.

41:45

And couldn't, and he poached away a bunch of staff and

41:47

all this stuff. And we were just kind

41:49

of hoping that he was otherwise engaged. Yeah,

41:52

he needs to be engaged in trying to save Tesla.

41:54

Their sales are down 55% and

41:56

they're still trying to give them a $47 billion raise. Well,

42:00

unfortunately, Dre, that is my next. We're

42:02

taking all the profits from the onion, moving them over

42:04

to cars to catch on fire on the

42:06

highway, trying to

42:08

put chips in the brains of monkeys.

42:12

So unfortunately, all of the riders have been let go,

42:14

and that's what we're going to be doing. It'll just

42:16

be AI, it's gonna be great. Don't go anywhere, because

42:19

we are keeping Michelangelo and Ben to

42:21

stick around and play our favorite game. You know what it is, who on the week

42:23

is next? Oh, thank you, Jesus. We

42:25

made it to the end of another week, which means it's time to play

42:27

our favorite game. We'll

42:29

one the week, back with

42:31

me, Michelangelo Signarelli, and Ben Collins. You

42:34

have a very cool name, Michelangelo, so I'm gonna ask you first,

42:36

who won the week? I have to say Joe Biden.

42:39

He went to Florida to campaign on

42:42

Tuesday, while Donald Trump was stuck in court and falling

42:44

asleep, and dealing with the

42:46

virus. And he was

42:48

a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

42:51

very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very,

42:54

very, very,

42:56

very, very, very very close. And then, of course, he

42:58

went off to the end of the day, and he

43:00

was in court and falling asleep, and

43:02

dealing with all kinds of anxiety. He

43:04

goes to Donald Trump's home state, talks

43:06

about abortion rights, two days later, a

43:09

Florida poll shows them two points apart, and

43:12

you know that that's driving Donald Trump crazy. Then

43:15

he comes to New York, Joe Biden, and goes

43:17

on Howard Stern, Donald Trump's old haunt. The

43:20

bell in a crucifix, that's all I

43:22

saw. Ben, you have a cool name too, even though

43:24

it's only three letters. Who won the week, and you

43:26

have the onion. Yeah,

43:29

well I do want to say who won the

43:31

week is lawns. You know, for years

43:33

people have been saying, get off my lawns. And

43:36

they finally did it. University

43:39

presidents have finally said, lawns

43:42

get the most rights right. Of

43:44

anybody in the country, they get so many rights, but

43:46

so many people have been saying, don't tread on me

43:48

for years. I

43:51

hate you. I hate you. I hate you. I

43:53

hate you. Be quiet, onion. Okay, I'm saying who won

43:55

the week, hip hop won the week. I gotta

43:57

tell you, first of all, the great state of Atlanta. We

44:00

are celebrating the 30th

44:02

anniversary, I feel old, of OutKast's

44:04

debut album as one

44:06

of the members of that incredible group was laid

44:08

to rest over the week. And

44:11

so we wanna say, Riko

44:13

Wade, Rest in Peace, but also

44:15

Mary J. Blige, Tribe Call Quest, my

44:18

favorite rap group of all time. They

44:20

and more, and Cher are being honored

44:22

at the Rock and Roll Hall of

44:25

Fame. They won the week. Michelangelo Signorili,

44:27

Ben Collins, congratulations. I'm grabbing

44:29

the onion. Thank you very much, that's tonight's readout. You can

44:31

follow me on TikTok at Joy Reed official and

44:33

Instagram at Joy Anne Reed. Follow our show

44:35

accounts on Instagram and TikTok Time

44:38

for a quick break to talk about McDonald's.

44:40

Mornings are for mixing and matching at McDonald's.

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For just $3, mix and match two of

44:44

your favorite breakfast items, including a sausage

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