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of other end i brought

1:00

you by the dispatch and the dispatch

1:02

media

1:05

the that spearman gum

1:07

this batch floor liners dispatch

1:09

this and dispatch that

1:13

it is friday morning

1:15

that to really

1:18

and

1:21

last friday right after i finished

1:23

recording remnant

1:26

the supreme court overruled

1:29

robbie way and

1:32

i thought for a minute regarding

1:34

the whole podcast and decided not to

1:39

maybe that was a mistake

1:41

but

1:43

but i felt like i

1:45

couldn't

1:48

fearing new are special or unique

1:50

about any of it

1:53

the by hearing the top line news was going to read

1:55

the opinion and i didn't have time to read the opinion had

1:57

to write the g file arm

1:59

the get home and and and cook

2:02

the meat balls for the sauce in there was a helicopter

2:04

phony me anyway so i decided not to do it and

2:07

now it feels like i've had my say about

2:09

it

2:09

a bunch

2:11

and everybody who's interested in it has has

2:15

already done their due diligence i'm

2:18

the maghreb dwell on it i'm

2:21

i don't know what i will dwell on

2:22

that i do wanna talk about to click to

2:26

originalism right or the skin

2:29

originalism because originalism

2:31

my eyes gonna glaze over when i hear my friends

2:34

argue about the differences between text

2:36

realism and originalism and original

2:38

understanding and all the stuff

2:42

it more

2:43

ron li

2:45

i find the whole

2:50

there are few places where like

2:53

the

2:54

i get

2:56

still the capacity be shocked by

2:58

the will book or i guess i have the called a willful

3:01

ignorance a , smart

3:03

people to not understand

3:05

certain basic things and

3:08

it's one of these things that makes me think that

3:10

think that radiology is radiology lot more powerful than people

3:12

realize that it's one of these just

3:14

staring you staring you staring your face

3:19

examples

3:20

how

3:23

when you called it reality you and god categorical

3:26

thinking you on ecologists around confirmation

3:28

bias or partisan by sir or

3:30

, fervor whatever in a levels you

3:32

wanna don't really care of places that the

3:34

it's one of these things that

3:40

shows how even among a leads

3:45

rational sort of good faith

3:48

i'm understanding can be very difficult

3:51

and , don't think this is a leftwing

3:54

problem or right wing problem i think it's raining

3:56

as an american problem american think it's a human problem

3:58

but it's one

3:59

these places where tracks with the left write

4:02

it off pretty well like i do i

4:04

i honestly just as a matter of just

4:06

sort of like a common sense

4:09

don't understand how

4:12

anyone could not be at least somewhat

4:15

originalist and their understanding of what

4:18

what constitutions are for

4:21

reitman if you've ever played monopoly

4:23

risk or strategic out

4:25

or virtually any other board game

4:28

at some point

4:30

there's a dispute about

4:32

something in the game

4:35

and you know whether you

4:37

can build hotels without building for houses

4:39

first or what about the free parking thing

4:41

or yada yada yada

4:44

what do you do you go and you grab

4:46

the instructions and you settle

4:48

the argument by saying this is what the instructions

4:51

say

4:52

they you have an argument

4:54

about what the instructions say

4:57

you can disagree about how to interpret

4:59

what the instructions say but

5:02

normal people

5:04

go to the instructions

5:06

right and they'll say

5:08

the

5:09

you know and you can have an argument about

5:11

like sure we disregard the

5:13

instructions or whatever that's

5:16

a fine for them from monopolies you

5:18

can also in monopoly

5:20

create

5:22

deviations from the rule at the

5:24

beginning of the game right you

5:26

can't change the rules in the middle of the game

5:28

at least not with everybody by were out everybody

5:31

buying into it that's not

5:33

fair that the stuff of arguments similarly

5:36

like you can't

5:37

make up new rules for scrabble

5:39

in the middle of the game that you are to year

5:44

in an item like the constitution

5:47

it's not a perfect analogy but the constitution

5:49

is based on the instruction manual of the federal

5:51

government

5:52

the

5:56

and it's not just the instruction manuals or

5:58

government it's also you know

6:00

the

6:02

the the basic rules about

6:04

the that the liberal order

6:06

for one of a better term

6:08

what things are rights with things

6:11

aren't , rights yada yada yada and

6:15

the the thing that drives me crazy

6:17

about all of these arguments about the constitution

6:19

is that

6:21

people

6:22

the people who are outraged by what

6:24

the supreme court has done this week or

6:27

the couple things about me about it

6:28

or the last two weeks three weeks or whatever

6:31

the conserve it yours prudence generally

6:33

from the supreme court

6:36

the thing the drugs regret the things

6:38

that drive me crazy about it or first on

6:40

this originalism stuff

6:42

the

6:44

they never provide an alternative

6:46

system

6:47

for

6:49

how to interpret the constitution they

6:52

might have alternative interpreter interpretations

6:55

of specific controversies but

6:58

the only way you can test it can tell whether

7:00

somebody is fair minded in these kinds of

7:02

arguments

7:03

if they offer and they think that originalism

7:06

or textual isn't right or just again reading

7:08

the instruction manual ism aren't

7:11

they think that's wrong fine what

7:14

what would they do if they

7:16

come up if they come up with the system which they

7:18

are never do but if they do if

7:21

they come up with system that always benefits

7:25

the liberal position or the progressive position

7:27

or the outcomes that they want they haven't

7:30

actually come up with the system they just

7:32

come up with a way to regress system for

7:34

their benefit you have

7:36

to have how are

7:38

you can have a rules based order you

7:41

need rules that will occasionally

7:43

inconvenience everybody

7:46

across the ideological spectrum

7:49

and ah

7:52

this is something that i like i read

7:54

this long josh sites as a

7:56

and politico earlier this week that

7:59

was this week

7:59

and

8:01

not all but how stupid the hit the

8:04

original approach is an my

8:06

friends and and are have just taken to task

8:08

in i i i side with dan mclaughlin

8:10

and trolley gotten all that vac i

8:12

was the one who like

8:14

acting with charlie cook about it the morning

8:16

the peace dropped i'm

8:19

in a the originalist argument says

8:23

been a baby shower should be doing this

8:25

but i'm barely the elite

8:27

a laid out the originals argument originals think is a legitimate

8:29

way to lay out the originals argument is

8:32

that

8:34

if there's a right in the constitution

8:36

it in the constitution read ,

8:38

freedom of speech is in the constitution you don't have the guess

8:41

whether that's right you have to have an

8:43

argument about whether that's alright it's

8:45

there is written there is the instruction

8:48

and then

8:51

if you want to make a claim the other things are rights

8:53

other than the freedom of you know like that that

8:55

aren't written into the constitution you

8:58

need to make an argument that

9:00

the

9:03

that the the the

9:05

the founders would have agreed right you need make an

9:07

argument that

9:10

there's a historical

9:12

evidence that such a right

9:14

exists in the right to own a dog

9:17

the not in the get it's not a doctor it's

9:19

not an a millar right it's not in the constitution

9:22

but you know pretty much every founder

9:24

probably had a dog people had dogs in every

9:26

generation in america

9:30

and

9:31

so and it's it

9:33

generally falls under the the property right

9:35

which in the in the at the constitution

9:38

does mention property yeah yeah yeah you

9:40

, an argument about it and

9:43

if you

9:45

the can't find anything through reason

9:48

or history in the past

9:50

or in tradition or just and sort of common

9:52

sense that says something is awry

9:56

the presumption is

9:57

that are it is something

9:59

the

10:00

the democratic process can regulate

10:04

and you know

10:06

and that's and that's it

10:09

that you can save flawed him and honestly

10:11

it can eat their marriage

10:13

complicated cases that you're like wow i don't

10:15

know about the history of all this rate or

10:17

sarah makes a very good point that a lot of

10:19

his depends on your level

10:21

of a generalization and

10:24

she example of how you're

10:26

in

10:30

the founding era everyone understood that you

10:32

had a right to get married so

10:35

yeah that's right

10:37

then

10:38

them

10:39

if you

10:40

narrow scope of the generalization and say

10:43

but did anybody have a right to marry another

10:45

person at the same sex you'd

10:47

say as will not let him have it right

10:50

and so there are complicated cases complicated

10:52

questions or come up and all this

10:54

the

10:56

what's the alternative to this

10:58

sort of general approach it

11:01

it just simply say that the supreme

11:03

court gets to make up the rules

11:06

as they see it that

11:09

the system that you want

11:12

the

11:13

that's not gonna work out for

11:15

liberals and democrats and progresses for quite

11:18

awhile because there's a

11:20

sixty three in a conservative majority

11:22

conservative the court

11:24

in

11:25

i don't want to live in that kind of society

11:28

i don't want to live in a society where whatever

11:30

the personal preferences of the

11:32

supreme court are get to be the

11:34

new

11:35

the fundamental laws of the lan

11:40

that every move to that that for proposed

11:42

by people everyone's duncan

11:44

everyone's clarence thomas for his

11:47

incurring opinion and in

11:49

the

11:50

and dogs were

11:53

in or he says we need to revisit some of these

11:55

other substantive due process cases

11:57

and lot of people are you know

12:00

i'm saying that he necessarily

12:03

that he ibiza therefore doesn't want

12:06

the outcomes that came

12:08

from those cases now he may not i don't know but

12:13

i remember i think was the first time i ever wrote about

12:15

clarence thomas i'm certainly one of the first things i ever

12:18

got really animated about clarence thomas in

12:20

the early nineties when nineties think was his first year on

12:22

the bench the had he

12:24

ruin

12:26

that all of us are liberals on the

12:28

washington post op ed page went nuts about

12:30

i'm

12:32

because he ruled that some guy

12:34

who got some inmate in prison

12:37

who got

12:38

beat up

12:40

the by guards

12:42

that it didn't violate some constitutional

12:46

maybe was scroll unusual my friend

12:48

i can't remember and

12:51

the heart of

12:52

thomas who

12:54

the explanation of his vote on

12:56

s was that

12:58

you know prison guards were like fired

13:01

they were punished they could be criminally prosecuted

13:04

for all sorts of things even do

13:06

who

13:09

thanks in such behave or not sanction sanctions

13:12

when those annoying words that means both

13:16

it means itself

13:18

and him and the opposite but we don't get that again

13:21

i'm

13:24

nobody can be banned don't

13:26

be constitutional something to be

13:28

good still be unconstitutional

13:32

and , was the point that but thomas was making

13:34

in that you saying look you

13:36

can send these guys to

13:39

the guard to prison but the

13:42

what they did does not violate

13:44

the constitution i'm

13:47

, the way that the plaintiffs suggested

13:50

and this infuriated

13:52

people and i was that this is exactly right

13:55

mike and i'm sure the

13:57

clarence thomas was against guards

13:59

beat the up prisoners just as

14:01

a general principle

14:04

that doesn't look you're asking the constitution to do something

14:06

that doesn't do and

14:08

ah when i hear

14:11

a song or a look on twitter at all

14:13

these people freaking out about what the supreme court has

14:15

done and last couple weeks i

14:17

get to be don't like the policy outcomes that

14:20

their their policy preferences

14:22

are entirely defensible whether i agree

14:24

with them or not they're entirely defensible

14:27

mainstream legitimate whether it's on

14:29

climate change or on abortion or

14:31

on guns i'm i think

14:33

all of their positions are for the sake

14:36

of our purposes here reasonable

14:38

indefensible even if i have

14:41

my disagreements with them

14:42

that

14:44

does it but it seems to be that's

14:47

the only argument that you get about that

14:49

about the supreme court in the constitution is

14:51

that

14:52

they don't like the policy outcomes

14:55

and

14:57

that to me is not an argument

14:59

about what the supreme court is supposed to do

15:01

with the constitution is supposed to

15:03

do you , i don't like

15:05

it that when i land on

15:07

board walk off boardwalk or park place

15:09

when my daughter owns it it

15:12

i'm going to be ahmed i'm gonna have

15:14

to sell off my hotels just

15:16

a pain the

15:18

rent on hers but

15:20

, don't blame monopoly for

15:22

it i don't blame her for correctly

15:24

interpreting the instructions about

15:27

it because those are the rules

15:30

which brings me or my my second point about the at

15:33

what frustrates me that all of this stuff and

15:35

i wrote about this on wednesday in a little bit

15:40

the listen to elizabeth warren and always people

15:45

the think that somehow democracy is

15:47

being destroyed when

15:49

the supreme court says to

15:52

be dem most democratic branches of government

15:54

both of the state and federal level

15:57

you get to decide this

15:59

your decision right be if you

16:02

want the a pay to

16:04

regulate carbon emissions

16:06

right a law

16:09

the count them to do that

16:12

if you think abortion

16:14

should be legal from ah

16:17

in in our conception to ah

16:19

delivery

16:21

right along

16:23

the sea level at the federal level i'm in to

16:25

give it a whirl i'm in a again the other constitutional

16:27

it's constitutional issues can kick in that that's

16:29

a different arguments the point is give

16:32

it a shot write something

16:34

down as assert your authority

16:36

take responsibility for public policy

16:39

and it is amazing how many people think

16:42

that i mean it's you very frustrating

16:44

reading

16:45

people like

16:46

the operation elizabeth warren and all

16:49

of the the usual

16:51

suspects and sort of left

16:53

wing legal journalism and and

16:55

political journalism

16:58

how they can't conceive

17:02

the idea

17:03

the you can pick a glimpse the reality

17:06

that the distinction

17:10

the can't glimpse the distinction that when

17:12

the supreme court tell congress

17:14

you can do whatever you want

17:17

he just gotta write a law

17:19

authorizing it

17:22

that is not the same thing

17:24

as the supreme court

17:26

using what policies to impose

17:29

it's just not

17:30

with week so far the

17:33

conservative couldn't court judicial activism

17:36

hasn't been the

17:38

mirror of liberal judicial

17:40

activism the liberal judicial activism

17:42

is legislating from the bench there

17:46

are exceptions i'm sure but like

17:48

in the context of last three weeks or months

17:51

good concerned majority with exception

17:53

you could argue about the gun case but in the

17:55

in the e p a case in the abortion

17:58

case

18:01

they're not

18:02

legislating from the bench they're not saying

18:05

what the policy should be

18:08

in the gun case they're not saying what the policy should

18:10

be there just saying what what

18:13

one aspect of the policy can't

18:15

be you can see own forty

18:17

three even the the conclusion

18:20

the supreme court said you can do with the way new

18:22

york you can do it the way forty three other states

18:25

do it but you just can't do it the way you been doing

18:27

that is not

18:30

hey

18:31

rewriting of gun

18:36

laws you know it's not an imposition

18:38

of what

18:39

carly cooks or you

18:42

know

18:44

for that matter ted nugent preferred

18:46

gun policies are it's just simply saying

18:49

you gotta follow the rules of if you're gonna

18:51

ever gonna regulate this stuff and

18:54

on the p a stop it's the court

18:56

is just saying

18:57

i'm

19:00

elected agencies can't go

19:04

off in really big

19:07

bold important new

19:10

policy directions without

19:13

a by your leave by congress congress

19:16

needs tell the people via their

19:18

elected representatives need to read a law

19:21

that says hey e p a do this

19:24

am i ,

19:27

i mean i think i been pretty

19:30

out there on the both sides some stuff

19:32

from a lot of things in the last

19:34

few years and i

19:37

don't

19:37

they can even back or even think about on this one i

19:39

just the

19:42

but conservatives at least in of the concert

19:44

as i respect that i count myself among to

19:46

have it up a habit right

19:48

in the left has it wrong

19:51

and

19:54

even on abortion in

19:57

the

19:59

what would

19:59

the know what would it solve this whole

20:02

thing

20:03

long time ago same thing with that this

20:05

with with done

20:07

the

20:08

the bill last hadn't

20:10

been so complacent in

20:14

thinking that his political prospects were going

20:16

to be good

20:18

for the foreseeable future that

20:20

they could just simply rely on the supreme court

20:22

to do everything if

20:25

they had worked the fraction

20:28

as hard as the right word

20:30

who create the federalist society to create

20:33

a whole pipeline of principled

20:36

originalist judges of the politics

20:38

that went into getting them on the bench to getting

20:40

them in the senate getting them and you know all

20:42

over the place if they and

20:46

anything like that kind of effort into i

20:48

don't know a constitutional amendment

20:51

on guns on whatever i mean

20:53

like i might oppose

20:56

various constitutional amendments that the left puts

20:58

would wanna put up

21:00

but

21:01

if they get a constitutional amendment

21:05

that's it whatever the mm and says that's

21:07

what the constitution says am i

21:10

can live with that i'm

21:12

, i can live with anything but that could get him

21:14

mirror and people's it would be too hard or take

21:16

too much time whatever these are these same people

21:19

right now who are who are caterwaul

21:21

thing about how the read how the right spent

21:23

fifty years

21:26

pursuing this strategy

21:28

the

21:29

and how smart they were about it well

21:31

enough

21:32

get to

21:33

one the great things about amending the constitution

21:37

the only way to actually breathe new meaning

21:39

into the constitution

21:42

is that it sufficiently hard and requires

21:44

sufficient by an from

21:46

so many different political jurisdictions

21:48

and stakeholders that the

21:50

process of getting across

21:52

the finish line finish also

21:55

is also

21:56

that

21:59

the way people

22:00

like you have actually have arguments

22:02

in the trenches for a long time together that

22:04

constitutional memory cross the finish

22:06

line and that's part of

22:08

the design

22:10

the

22:13

i'm sure i'll come back to some of this but i

22:18

i get very very frustrated that everyone is

22:20

talking about how though many of the

22:23

dangers posed to draw the

22:25

dangers posed to our democracy or democracy

22:27

and so fragile

22:29

the supreme court is just basically saying

22:31

the rowing congress and state legislatures

22:35

the car keys and said go wherever

22:37

you want just don't ask us to do

22:39

it for us

22:40

it for you

22:41

and everyone's like

22:43

that no undemocratic bet is like democracy

22:46

better who that is like literally

22:48

saying

22:50

you gotta do this stuff democratically don't

22:52

ask us to do it

22:54

in

22:57

it is it's a mm i feel

22:59

like i'm taking crazy pills sometimes on the stuff

23:02

time for a break to talk about another great

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hot and mcdonalds is here to keep you

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23:30

many of okay so get back to the rank punditry

23:33

stuff so joe biden

23:35

that yesterday

23:37

that he wants

23:39

the

23:41

the an exception to the filibuster

23:44

the clarify row

23:46

an

23:48

then when you that explain it when the but as was as

23:50

explain that users ah want an exception

23:53

to the filibuster for rules

23:55

and sry for for legislation and enshrining

23:58

i'm the

23:59

to privacy or privacy rights

24:02

the number right buttons and

24:05

i'm in favor privacy rights ah

24:08

rights think similar stuff come at texas about sodomy

24:10

laws and all that kinda stuff is bonkers

24:13

the

24:14

i don't want those guys

24:17

good like replace federal society types as

24:20

judges or a or even legislatures

24:22

let it legislators are you gonna stop but

24:28

i'm of blame it

24:31

has blamed to say you know i'm

24:33

i want an exception to the filibuster for the stuff

24:35

i've light

24:37

kind of like in our was joking with

24:39

a friend of mine is sort of like saying

24:41

the

24:43

i'm all in for not him for a monogamous

24:46

marriage unless there's

24:48

a shot with a really hot chick

24:50

the

24:52

you know it it's just not how supposed

24:54

to work a ie gotta in our display

24:56

just as it works with with the constitutional

24:58

amendment the want

25:00

heard

25:01

that's enough power you gotta make an argument that

25:03

you make an argument for getting rid of the filibuster entirely

25:06

and i understand those arguments and all that kind of stuff but

25:09

the say that you know

25:12

you want the get

25:14

rid of the filibuster afford just the sorts

25:16

of legislation that you think a really

25:18

important than the the illicit privacy rights and voting

25:20

rights it's just really lame

25:23

it doesn't convince anybody and i just i

25:25

also love this way the sort

25:27

of monarchical way we talk about our presidents where

25:30

if you follow coverage so many people just simply

25:32

saying

25:34

it's a huge deal that he supports

25:36

this

25:37

the if that

25:39

changing something in

25:41

over another of be sort of michael scott

25:44

declaring bankruptcy kind of things where

25:46

i support this ah

25:49

that somehow is going to resonate out into

25:51

the universe and transmogrified

25:54

matter or mines and

25:56

in some significant way it's just it's it's

25:59

all theatrical

25:59

all performative i understand that he

26:02

as a political necessity need to do and

26:04

but i'm it's also just sort

26:06

of

26:07

really

26:08

the

26:10

one one last thing on his baby animals

26:12

deserve of federalism federalist

26:14

society deserve judges

26:20

i've

26:22

just basically kinda the position that

26:24

if you

26:27

i go out of your way to attack david french

26:30

on twitter

26:32

the that

26:35

without in we're in a sort of

26:37

ma be fan service

26:39

kind of way i am

26:41

i'm disinclined to not want have anything to be with

26:43

you for the rest of my life i'm in it's not

26:45

because i'm like at the games a good friend of mine

26:48

is a colleague i'm i'm proud to know i'm i

26:50

think is right about a lot of things i'm

26:52

but it's really not like a wild eyed defensiveness

26:55

of david i have my disagreements with david

26:57

and i got no promo people who disagree with david ah

27:00

on the merits but

27:03

the effort or led by sohrab

27:05

and these guys to turn him into

27:07

a symbol of all that is wrong

27:10

with america

27:14

liberal democratic capitalism conservatism

27:17

christianity i think is just it's

27:19

it's growth has and

27:22

, in a really interesting

27:25

li stupid way i'm

27:28

it got sort of this weird can

27:31

i like witch hunt the mccarthyite

27:33

kind of vibe to it because

27:35

it's sort starts with the assumption

27:37

if kind of up more it's more like mean girls

27:40

kind of thing that everyone

27:42

in the cafeteria just knows and it's okay

27:44

to make fun of somebody

27:46

because they're all in on

27:48

it it doesn't really matter

27:50

whether it's justify the make fun of somebody

27:52

it's it's justice caddy

27:55

bitchy little thing that some

27:57

people got bought into and

27:59

with like really interesting in the wake

28:02

of

28:03

the dogs decision how

28:05

a lot of those kinds of people

28:08

just you know your this hear these

28:10

people who claim that

28:12

there are passionate pro lifers movies

28:15

people who claim that this that this massive

28:17

victory not just for

28:20

the pro life cause but for them specifically

28:22

because they were the ones who defended

28:25

trump and fought for trump and got him and

28:28

and stood by him the get three justices

28:30

on the supreme court and like the political

28:32

base stealing our intellectual based stealing

28:35

and all that is just

28:36

the enormous on the historical

28:38

revisionism of it is an enormous

28:41

ah

28:42

you know like the people who who

28:44

are

28:45

making claims

28:47

it's not like

28:50

they took principal positions

28:52

condemning trump when he was wrong on this

28:54

that or the other thing but said look everybody

28:56

we got to stick it out with this this

28:59

sub doofus president because

29:02

of the supreme court they were all

29:04

in on supporting trump goddess of what

29:06

he did what he said how he said it if

29:08

he had appointed

29:10

ah

29:13

the judges from up

29:15

that weren't on the list that he had to agree

29:17

to they would have supported him enough

29:19

they try to if he tried to get jeanine pirro

29:21

on the court most of them would have supported

29:24

and ah

29:28

but it was really interesting and as of the with

29:30

historic

29:32

the thing happens

29:33

and ah in own people

29:36

like molly hemingway in these others years ago

29:38

david french has no right to

29:40

celebrate this arm different

29:43

shows like the in the in

29:45

the trenches ah

29:48

you know of for you know of

29:50

abortion rights seminary our mean a pro

29:52

life lawyer an activist

29:55

for decades is and no

29:57

right to celebrate this because

29:59

in like trump and i have no right to some

30:02

gonna let us be as to

30:06

and put it at the stupidity of all that i'm

30:09

and also just the false assumption that david

30:11

ayer exactly the same page all these issues

30:13

that another stuff matters it's

30:16

really telling that when you

30:19

i have this

30:21

world historical victory for

30:23

the things that you claim to care most

30:26

about as a moral

30:28

and religious issue your

30:31

first instinct is the go mean

30:33

girl in the cafeteria against david

30:35

french

30:36

it just kind of suggests

30:38

to me

30:41

that the pro

30:43

life part of this really wasn't the most important

30:45

thing

30:47

it's just so sad and weird and

30:49

lame and

30:52

i bring it up because in david wrote this

30:54

really great

30:55

piece about abortion about

30:57

about the overturning roe

31:04

yeah

31:06

however from a pro life respectable

31:08

the sunday there

31:11

and are you know the right

31:13

after the decision and

31:16

a friend of mine friend won't give away his name

31:19

the wrote an interesting email

31:21

i didn't get permission to read this out wow but i think

31:26

i think it open to be okay

31:28

the

31:30

senator means the is is it like

31:32

everyone else i read david column on sunday

31:34

with great interest i think it misses a

31:36

much bigger point i hope he can make

31:39

he won

31:41

i'm not talking about overturning roe we all

31:43

one that i'm talking about the same as friends

31:45

sohrab debate about whether we should

31:47

work with that within the judicial system or

31:49

not to arm or

31:51

not to affect conservative change

31:54

no one is called out the catholic in douglas

31:57

on being very very wrong here

31:59

on the most

31:59

important issue

32:01

it was precisely by growing feather

32:04

society babies looking envelopes for barely

32:07

pro life com over souders cheating

32:10

the mackey the mackey mcconnell path and

32:12

forcing trump to stay one track

32:15

on judges that we won it took

32:17

fifty years in that time

32:19

or batting average went up as the judges

32:21

got better and the moment got smart and

32:23

the movement got smarter reagan was

32:25

one for to

32:26

george hw bush was one for one

32:28

summer supreme court appointments we lost

32:31

the net seat with clinton w's

32:33

one point five

32:34

the point

32:37

five oh i'm and

32:39

that trump was three

32:41

now

32:42

ah images that should give a

32:45

shot in the armed daves world the world

32:47

view and i think is right my friends roger you

32:49

know david made the are you know it

32:51

was the house liberal

32:53

mega nationalists types

32:56

who were talking about

32:57

how

32:59

courts need to rule

33:01

based upon the result conservatives want

33:03

not on any

33:05

the

33:08

no strict fidelity to text

33:10

or to to liberal process

33:12

or procedure and it was david who

33:14

said no are you know the most important

33:16

stuff

33:17

that we want you have to do with the right way

33:20

that which is the hard way and

33:23

david was right

33:24

so we don't get to celebrate even if

33:26

you know any like even the babylon be

33:28

did that stupid stupid stuff about david

33:30

it's just really pathetic ah

33:35

oh okay so like last week i

33:38

talked about consequential ism with some people really

33:40

dog and some people like a about

33:42

i'm i'm sure the air people

33:45

will out

33:46

outnumber the diggers i miss

33:48

by guess so far as it's it's

33:51

it's some

33:53

it's a full gent with mediocrity as far as i

33:55

can tell i'm but

34:03

the bothered me all week

34:05

that the point that that the the

34:08

the hinge point that i wanted to make about how

34:10

i'm the corner

34:12

want to make was but would i think i did

34:15

explain but as any like a kevin

34:18

, sent me an email saying you know your

34:20

argument against consequential isn't was very

34:22

confident consequentialist consequentialist

34:24

because it at all it's not about red lights in greenlights

34:27

whatever and he was right

34:29

but

34:30

then i don't i don't i don't have any problem with

34:33

that

34:34

the duke which was made and

34:36

the light hardware

34:38

there were the thing i wanted to explain

34:40

that i don't i just didn't feel like explain or i guess i

34:42

forgot this bit from

34:45

peter singer's interview on

34:47

that philosophy bites podcast where he

34:49

is set at one point having go back to listen to her

34:51

but he said at one point that

34:53

he used to be

34:54

that

34:56

this kind of utilitarian and

34:58

then and now he's this other kind of utilitarian

35:01

a hedonistic utilitarian and

35:03

the other the old kind of utilitarian

35:05

that he used to be a pretty

35:07

gotta preference lip ah utilitarian

35:10

which meant that you should honor

35:13

people's preferences and

35:16

he's changed his position to say no no

35:18

no preferences don't matter what

35:20

matters is your state of consciousness

35:22

and whether it's a a pleasant one in

35:26

he used as an example of what he used to believe

35:28

used to believe eased believe it believe might be mangling example

35:30

slightly that he used to

35:32

believe that

35:34

a

35:38

that if your preference was that your money

35:40

spent a certain way

35:44

your family should honor that preference

35:47

when you die

35:48

and

35:50

have you no longer believe that because once

35:52

you die

35:57

you have no idea whether

36:00

the your preferences were honored

36:02

and i think vit this really encapsulates

36:05

what bothered me about this whole thing

36:07

and i just get bother me that it and bring it up or this

36:09

i don't think i brought it up i ,

36:11

will bring up stuff on here and and ten minutes

36:13

later we like get like did i remember

36:15

to mention that i'm but here's

36:18

the problem right

36:19

and i got into a little bit of this with

36:21

i'm

36:22

megan mcardle and roundabout

36:25

way i want to talk about like sort

36:27

of dynamic scoring for cultural

36:30

politics ah

36:33

let's say we live in a society where everybody

36:35

believes what peter singer argues

36:39

about consequential islam is correct

36:41

and they may try to act on

36:43

so

36:45

the wondering in the narrow circumstances

36:47

of

36:48

your own wife were like you

36:50

promised your father that you're gonna give a

36:52

million dollars to

36:56

them back in town rescue organization

36:59

but ah once you guys

37:02

you don't you don't give the million

37:04

dollars army keep it for

37:06

yourself

37:09

in singer is ah example

37:13

everybody

37:15

wins the your dad goes to

37:17

his final reward

37:19

which coriander singers

37:23

entropy decay and and and turning

37:25

back into soil does he doesn't believe in anything

37:27

after you die

37:29

a but you go you know you

37:32

wind up your life on

37:34

this planet believing that your wishes

37:36

are going to be honored and that makes you happy so

37:39

that's good

37:40

i'm

37:41

the

37:43

and now you you get the million dollars

37:45

and maybe you'll give under dozens about

37:47

an hour because i think singer would definitely think better

37:50

at not a bad cause i'm

37:52

but you spend the rest yourself mmx yourself happy

37:55

those when when and

37:57

the point the point trying to grow back here

37:59

the

38:04

that example cannot live in a vacuum

38:07

if we live in a society where everybody

38:10

sees things that way

38:13

the dad isn't going to

38:16

the abide by his sons promises

38:19

that he'll spend his money the way he

38:22

wanted to the go

38:24

everyone

38:26

we'll be living in a world

38:28

where they assume other people

38:30

think it's okay to lie

38:34

if they likely outcome or the consequences

38:36

of the lie

38:38

and i think this is one

38:40

of these things were sort of were

38:45

i've been reading a bit of oak shot lately i'm

38:47

rereading a bit of oaks out lately and

38:50

you know his big problem with rationalism and politics

38:53

and politics write about some of this today i don't know

38:56

you were rationalism

39:00

in things cultural never

39:02

ever works because it doesn't take

39:04

into effect sort of the multiplier effect

39:07

of

39:10

sociology and human

39:12

psychology so

39:15

you can have even come up with is

39:17

great ethical system about how people are supposed

39:20

to behave and , you're supposed to

39:22

make decisions but it doesn't

39:24

be systems don't take into effect

39:27

how other people respond

39:29

to the incentives of exactly

39:32

that kind of system

39:33

and if you

39:36

take down or you diminish

39:39

the moral sanctions

39:42

against lying

39:45

to be one of sure consequential

39:47

as

39:48

then you also

39:50

in increase the amount of distrust

39:53

in any given society

39:55

and if

39:57

promises

39:58

verbal promised

39:59

ah implicit promises

40:03

promises that are inherent

40:05

to family obligation and friendship

40:08

that sometimes don't have to be articulated

40:11

or even explicit verbal promises

40:14

right i'm if all of those sort

40:16

of sinewy things that make

40:18

social trust work at the organic

40:20

ground ground level

40:22

the no longer be relied upon because

40:25

the rational ethical thing to do

40:29

simpli lie to be have

40:32

pleasing results

40:34

then you lose trust in society

40:36

and when you lose trust in society

40:40

one of the think there are lots of bad things happen we

40:42

lose trust in society but one of the things that you

40:44

lose is that

40:47

the

40:48

that you become more legalist stick

40:51

right because if as informal

40:54

modes of enforcing obligation

40:57

shrink formal modes

40:59

of enforcing obligation will

41:01

increase

41:03

this is a simple if you women as i were you just

41:05

don't think a handshake will ever do

41:07

the

41:08

like know handshake deals gotta

41:11

have it on paper

41:12

the more people have on paper

41:14

and that may be fine

41:16

in the business contacts but

41:18

there's all sorts of things

41:21

in

41:22

in life veteran the

41:24

equivalent of

41:26

handshake deal

41:28

i'm in like

41:30

if you ever been a parent or a child i assume

41:32

most of you have been child children i'm

41:35

you know

41:37

among the most powerful

41:40

arguments a kid can make

41:42

against a parent is but you promised

41:46

but you said so

41:48

and that comes with all

41:50

sorts of obligation because parents understand

41:53

that if they say they did make

41:55

a promise then

41:57

they have a long term interest

42:01

in keeping that promise even if making

42:03

that promising the first place may

42:05

have been a mistake

42:07

and sometimes parents have to

42:09

go back on promises and that sucks and

42:11

i've i don't know apparent out bear worth

42:14

their salt i frankly

42:16

like if you're a parent and

42:19

you go back on a promise and

42:22

enjoy it from

42:24

, enormous image observes is take

42:26

your kid away i'm but

42:28

maybe sad a few plays you know it's

42:30

a terrible thing when you have to do that to

42:32

kids and they have their their expectations built

42:35

up up sometimes as they get older

42:37

you can reason with them and you say here's why you

42:39

know i'm going on and a promise but i can almost on

42:41

of i can honor the promise on the timeline

42:44

that we talked about or back but

42:46

just simply say to go back on your word with

42:48

your kids is a terrible thing to go back on

42:50

your word with your friends is a terrible

42:53

thing to go back on your

42:55

where would your spouse is a terrible

42:57

thing and adults can

43:00

you know make arguments and fried context

43:02

for you know exceptions as a general rule

43:05

we live in a society where you're supposed

43:07

and i say i say

43:11

any group of people

43:14

the merits the term society

43:16

work this way in one way or you are

43:19

or another it's you know this kind of thing

43:21

is one of those human universal's and

43:24

the like an ethical system but says no no

43:26

no matter like those kinds

43:29

of things really don't enter into

43:31

it

43:32

in your decision making

43:35

the

43:36

even if they might be right in the the

43:38

example that the his arm

43:41

those examples don't exist in a vacuum and

43:44

once you start putting these things you know

43:46

into a real world practice at

43:48

scale

43:49

the

43:51

things go south ,

43:53

suburb and rhythm thinking about this a lot and

43:55

and i'm like run about this too this

43:58

that

44:01

they could have ended when veggie file

44:04

about , lot of this is that

44:06

the main reason miller bunch of

44:09

reasons why we can't have nice things but

44:11

the main reason why we have such a lead

44:13

political dysfunction in this country

44:16

that too many people i don't know the number

44:18

you don't have a no one knows the number i don't know i

44:20

don't think it's a majority but it doesn't need to

44:23

be a majority a

44:26

significant number of

44:28

of actors

44:32

no longer

44:35

could

44:38

i'm

44:40

the health and longevity

44:43

and long term interest of the system

44:47

liberal democratic capitalism rule of

44:49

law whatever in a levels one opponent

44:51

they no longer put that as a priority

44:54

the

44:57

in their decision making when their

44:59

decisions matter

45:03

it is so easy to do the right

45:05

thing in the easy cases so

45:08

easy to may the right

45:10

vote on the when it's

45:12

an easy vote in other

45:15

areas cicero cs lewis

45:17

cs lewis forgetting

45:19

that's when how courage is the most important of all

45:21

virtues because

45:23

it comes into play at

45:26

the testing point for all the other

45:28

virtues

45:30

it is easy to be

45:32

the

45:33

receiving not to steal when you don't

45:35

see anything that you want it

45:38

is easy not to cheat on your wife or

45:40

your husband when you're not attracted

45:42

to anybody else

45:43

it

45:46

easy to take

45:48

the prince of position and congress

45:50

when it's exactly what your base

45:52

and all your voters lot

45:57

the yard that that the determinant what

45:59

can occur

45:59

there you have is

46:02

, you when you when you see

46:04

the easy path and only the and i don't

46:06

mean to sound like al pacino at

46:08

the end of our sensible woman but

46:10

in a when use a you come to a crossroads

46:13

and you see

46:14

easy path and the right path

46:16

and you take the easy path is the right path

46:19

was too damn hard as a

46:21

cappuccino says i'm that's

46:23

the test you know or less

46:26

cheney in or a debate

46:29

in wyoming last night i saw

46:31

club this morning on the news

46:34

you know she says to the audience look

46:36

for something you need to know about me

46:39

that i will never put

46:42

the interest of my party

46:44

i had oh the

46:47

interests of my nation or my loyalty

46:49

to the constitution

46:51

this should be

46:53

like

46:55

the most

46:58

we need

47:00

oh right

47:02

political pablum you could offer an

47:05

m m in good times a kind of

47:07

his

47:08

but for cheney she means of

47:10

seriously and she didn't she shouldn't

47:12

you means a courageously

47:14

because what her party

47:18

currently in wyoming certainly in this context

47:21

once you to do his side with

47:23

someone cause

47:26

and a moment

47:27

that did not put the country first the

47:29

not but the constitution first and

47:32

it requires courage in the moment it

47:35

didn't my point about like the friggin glorification

47:38

on line as a son of john dean these

47:41

days ah where everyone's talking

47:43

about talking about d

47:45

these witnesses who did

47:47

the right thing when it mattered being

47:50

like john dean john dean do not do

47:52

the right thing when it mattered

47:54

he did the right thing

47:57

when he had no other choice and

47:59

wanted to get the

47:59

the league plea bargain possible

48:02

he still went to jail for what

48:04

he did and there's very good

48:06

reason to believe that

48:09

he lied for his entire

48:11

career but the scope of what he

48:13

did during watergate and is brought out

48:15

all the time as was courageous conscience

48:17

of a nation whistleblower guy

48:20

b s

48:22

right mean like it's a little bit like what michael

48:24

cohen

48:25

trump's lawyer has done although

48:28

i get the vibe from him that he's he's more

48:30

sincere but some of the stuff i'm lucky

48:32

kind of woke up from i am

48:35

, our he kind of got deprogrammed

48:38

think he's the shock storm was at but like

48:41

you know

48:42

he flipped and trump when you

48:44

know

48:46

when he was facing jail time and

48:49

the futon trump when

48:52

you know

48:53

from room to the wolves in advance

48:56

that's not a courageous whistle blowing

48:58

and i'm not i don't want to beat up on the guy goes out least

49:00

he's paid his dues amen

49:03

and and and some contrition but

49:05

i'm

49:07

oh it's not what bread rations bird it it's

49:09

not work

49:11

you know game sterling or or

49:14

even passive baloney you know who

49:17

by everything i've seen did the right thing

49:19

when it mattered or mike pence who

49:21

did the right thing when it matters and

49:23

good very mad at mike pence for how he behaved

49:26

in four years prior to january

49:28

six

49:30

i could probably over beers get into a nice

49:33

argument with liz cheney about how she

49:35

behaved in the four years prior

49:37

to january six

49:39

the

49:40

but when it mattered the most

49:43

they

49:45

do the right thing

49:47

they're doing the right thing well i don't know pence is currently

49:49

doing the right thing but like liz cheney is doing the right

49:51

thing and visit the thing is that it's

49:54

so easy

49:55

when

49:57

the

49:58

you have this out

49:59

sighs confidence that the system

50:03

in handle

50:05

your person or corruption

50:08

right arm it's sort

50:10

of like you know

50:13

com

50:14

who

50:15

don't take mass of bribes pathetic little

50:18

bribes because they know that you know it it does

50:20

no harm in the system can work and blah blah

50:22

blah

50:24

maybe the pocket a little of the drug

50:26

money that they find and the bus but not all

50:28

of it and ah

50:32

but other than that they're basically sort of honest

50:34

organiser those

50:37

with the calculations

50:39

which i think are probably rational

50:41

in correct him with

50:44

him and during a live your

50:46

life

50:49

that if everybody have that attitude

50:53

the have them can't work right an

50:55

arm and what people so what people do

50:57

and in normal times is

51:00

the assume

51:01

the system is sufficiently in oh wait

51:04

what they call anti fragile that it's

51:06

to sit sufficiently support that

51:08

you can bend the rules a little bit for yourselves

51:12

and it'll be okay

51:14

i am the first to plead

51:16

guilty that i do this if at all sorts of little things

51:19

in life you know speeding

51:21

in you know with partying

51:23

in a know or or i could

51:25

pry come up with a a

51:27

whole bunch of things where you

51:29

know

51:32

normally when i was younger where i just

51:34

you know

51:36

then the rules a little bit what's the harm

51:38

who cares and i m m m to

51:40

be honest

51:41

i'm fine with that in your normal life

51:44

and all that kind of stuff but when

51:46

you assume when you start saying

51:48

that kind of thing is okay

51:51

when you start saying that that

51:54

the ethical matter there's nothing wrong

51:56

with it

51:58

and you don't provide a limiting prince

51:59

well for where you can go wrong

52:02

that's where you start to a road the

52:04

system it's like this i'm

52:06

you know i

52:08

he's the right about hidden law a lot

52:11

i don't know if it's still the official term of

52:13

art they're always other terms of art

52:15

for this gonna say in formal law

52:18

ah cultural

52:21

norms and are at in a depends where

52:23

you're going to a sociologist or a philosopher

52:26

i'm an economist

52:30

even institutions are basically just in our

52:32

rules

52:35

the i remember years

52:37

ago yeah

52:39

to rouse read some really interesting stuff about hidden

52:41

law and i started writing about it

52:43

and response and i'm

52:46

and

52:48

one of the

52:50

arguments back in the day was

52:54

that every was on about how

52:56

do you handle adultery in the wake

52:59

of the clinton lewinsky stuff

53:02

and it is

53:04

absolutely true

53:07

i think this was route as point but if is not i apologize

53:10

it was somebody it was lot of people's point

53:12

people were arguing look we have

53:14

is unwritten rule in society that

53:17

we do not pay

53:19

close attention

53:21

the make a big deal

53:22

about adultery

53:24

the i'm ,

53:26

are we to judge it's for the fair

53:28

it's for the couple themselves of themselves family oversell to

53:30

work it out i'm don't

53:33

make a stink about it yada yada

53:35

yada and i think there's a lot of truth

53:37

about

53:38

don't get me wrong

53:39

i

53:41

my point was

53:44

yeah that's true

53:47

though long as

53:50

the parties involved

53:53

try to keep it private and secret

53:55

it is one thing

53:57

who

53:59

commit adults

53:59

three

54:01

i never have and i'm very much against

54:03

and i just saw that realize that i've i've

54:05

met mentioned cheating on your wife a couple times

54:08

on here is not projection for anything

54:10

don't worry i'm but

54:12

ah

54:14

it is one thing

54:16

who

54:18

when shame and secrecy and

54:21

subterfuge

54:23

cheat on someone that you love

54:26

it's another thing to do it publicly

54:28

publicly humiliating your spouse

54:31

is evil in a way that

54:33

is additional to

54:35

the evil ness of the just the the basic

54:38

betrayal of trust because

54:40

, the doing it publicly

54:42

is humiliating arm

54:46

in and vicious and

54:49

, with politicians they

54:51

can have all sorts of sins all of us have

54:54

since politicians have more than most

54:56

and so long as they're not

54:58

breaking the law

55:00

if we don't know about it okay

55:04

but , they start bragging about it if

55:06

if if they get caught like air great and getting

55:08

caught in a tying a woman up and

55:10

blackmailing or she should she should be

55:13

barred from public life in any

55:15

meaningful way for the rest of his life really

55:17

at the very least until he has

55:19

a true moment of contrition in

55:22

, we believe in forgiveness in this country

55:24

but he owns his psychopath see i'm

55:27

and the republican party is republican party clowning

55:30

itself in missouri for

55:32

even letting him run in the primaries

55:35

the reform party doesn't have

55:37

a little parties don't have to let people they don't want

55:39

run

55:40

in their primaries on but i'm not

55:43

i'm going into that orient point

55:45

is that this

55:47

he is a lot of flecks in the

55:49

culture

55:50

for

55:51

private violation of norms

55:54

that don't reach the

55:57

the level of criminality

55:59

and even some criminality like

56:02

you know it is

56:03

salt to punch someone in the face

56:06

that a bar if someone is like yelling

56:09

all sorts of racial epithets

56:11

the

56:13

or being a grotesque

56:15

pig towards women

56:18

in some dude gets

56:20

up and punches i'm in the face ah

56:24

technically he is at fault it was just speech

56:27

yada yada yada i'm but

56:29

most people in the room and be like she had

56:31

it coming they're not gonna call the police about

56:34

it previously purchased like one punch the

56:36

, on the floor can press charges if he wants

56:38

because that someplace where we sort of leap out

56:40

of the informal world but we

56:43

have to search we have search we level of tolerance

56:45

for actual criminal stuff

56:49

the , it conforms with sort

56:51

of natural law hidden law cultural

56:54

norms and customs and that kind of thing and

56:57

, as it should be there should be all sorts

56:59

of

57:00

you know beneficial

57:04

microbes in the bar and the biome

57:06

of the body politic for this kind of stuff

57:08

but don't follow strict law

57:12

but one

57:15

that kind of stuff becomes public once

57:17

it becomes a public norm violation

57:20

once you no longer doing it essentially on

57:22

the down low the steaks

57:24

change because also now you have this

57:26

dynamic scoring thing where people

57:29

see what your to what you're doing and

57:31

they think you're setting an example

57:34

this is one of my great

57:35

problems with the trump presidency is

57:38

what a terrible example

57:40

he sat for how to behave in public

57:42

life forget whether you know

57:45

at committed and tempted

57:46

know who he did forget

57:49

all that kinda stuff is ,

57:51

shocking sore loser am

57:54

in vain and ,

57:56

and and and that's not

57:58

how

58:00

no it's not fine that he

58:03

was like that in the private sector

58:05

what you gonna do a better than the private sector

58:07

but when he's on the public stage

58:09

it changes things

58:11

in

58:13

i think that of in some ways the more lasting

58:15

damage that he did

58:17

the society than them you know

58:19

the stuff he did are in a leading up to in

58:21

january six

58:23

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58:51

i got explained by

58:54

hooton ah were here

58:58

apparently someone said like

59:00

mccraw nerve the

59:02

pajama boy guy runs canada

59:06

though

59:07

them wanted something of a g sense g seven

59:09

summer about you know all of

59:11

those shirtless shots of

59:13

potent

59:14

the

59:16

that how you know something about the to visit

59:19

toxic masculinity of a sword

59:21

turn i don't know something sudden denigrating

59:23

and prudence response

59:25

was part that

59:28

the see any of those western leaders

59:32

without a shirt on i

59:34

, be disgusting and he went on a tirade

59:36

about like doing sports and up in

59:38

an exercise and are

59:41

not abusing alcohol and

59:43

arm

59:44

that is like and what he's right

59:46

to certain extent i'm not gonna throw any stones

59:49

here you know but like boris johnson

59:52

in a shirtless didn't do

59:57

i did not do a lot

59:58

for people who

59:59

the mail form i don't wanna be to

1:00:02

gendered and that i'm

1:00:05

the like physical ah

1:00:07

one have to wonder whether or not

1:00:10

couldn't has seen some of these i'm

1:00:13

the and an avian female leaders ah

1:00:15

guess like some of them are sufficiently

1:00:18

attractive to what we're used to call the male

1:00:20

gaze i'm that they get

1:00:22

i'm only fans accounts

1:00:25

and ah

1:00:29

but i just i found the whole

1:00:31

sort of em in this is what international diplomacy

1:00:33

has descended to his

1:00:36

in a pool in being the sort

1:00:38

of like one of the one of the gym rat

1:00:40

browse talking about in i'm in

1:00:42

a way it's gonna next is gonna be saying

1:00:45

out to micron do you even lift bro

1:00:49

the i thought i was just gonna funny what

1:00:52

else do we wanna talk about i'm about

1:00:54

i'm i should talk about that

1:00:57

i

1:00:59

wish i had both you know i for i forgot

1:01:02

or in a case the first friday of the month

1:01:04

i thought the june have thirty one days in

1:01:06

it i'm bad you are good i

1:01:09

apologize but i'm

1:01:11

the we should have done the i'm

1:01:14

dr time thing today our going to push it

1:01:16

off i'm also next week going to

1:01:18

start putting a bunch of

1:01:20

show him the can because the

1:01:22

following week on going to be gone for a little bit

1:01:25

very much looking forward to taking some time off

1:01:28

the and

1:01:29

but they're going to be really

1:01:31

good shows i think i'd know are my

1:01:34

friend noah rothman is coming on talked about his new

1:01:36

book

1:01:37

which everyone should get

1:01:41

and also the next time i talk to you it

1:01:43

will be in , of july

1:01:45

fourth have gone by and

1:01:47

there

1:01:50

you talk about america

1:01:52

just a tiny little bit and

1:01:55

i guess i got some of the stuff about doing the right thing

1:01:57

when it matter but i'm

1:02:00

there was a recent poll out

1:02:02

i don't think was a really particularly good poll

1:02:05

arm , with the question was

1:02:07

something like today today

1:02:09

you proud to be an american

1:02:12

and something like only thirty eight percent said they were

1:02:14

extremely proud to be an american arm

1:02:18

the sufficient level of abstraction

1:02:21

i'm definitely part of a thirty eight percent

1:02:26

but at the rim the problem with the with

1:02:28

who among other things was that was

1:02:30

the word today because what

1:02:33

it does is it conjures

1:02:35

people to think about

1:02:37

gay what's going on in america right now

1:02:41

that puts you in a sort of a political framework

1:02:43

and cultural framework and a contingent framework

1:02:46

on the moment rather than on

1:02:48

to a broader fundamentals and so

1:02:50

i , if you'd ask the question just slightly differently

1:02:53

you would a gotten more people saying they're extremely

1:02:55

proud are proud to be an american mean

1:02:57

the overall number of people center proud to be

1:02:59

america with some sort of historic low ah

1:03:03

and

1:03:04

i do find that the pressing cause shouldn't

1:03:06

the debate

1:03:07

the

1:03:10

but like i don't know if

1:03:13

i had a kid who

1:03:16

ah

1:03:17

the stole a car and crash

1:03:20

it through supermarket window or something like that and

1:03:22

you ask me today are you proud to be a goldberg

1:03:25

i wouldn't think about

1:03:28

that goldberg's as a you

1:03:30

know

1:03:31

the great entity i'm

1:03:34

, time or anything like that our

1:03:36

be like no i'm not very proud of being

1:03:38

a goldberg today and i think

1:03:40

that sort of the problem with paul

1:03:44

but happy to take two steps back

1:03:47

in

1:03:48

you

1:03:49

paul as

1:03:53

from as it's being misinterpreted

1:03:55

right if you'd think of has do with about

1:03:58

america qua

1:03:59

america

1:04:01

then

1:04:03

you really just foolish not to be proud

1:04:05

this country

1:04:09

i'm a doesn't mean you can't criticize the

1:04:11

country ah you

1:04:14

know like

1:04:15

there are a lot of people that you can be proud

1:04:17

of and one of the reasons why you're proud

1:04:19

of them and fact one of the main reasons

1:04:22

why like parents are proud of their kids

1:04:25

isn't because the

1:04:26

we do everything right they they

1:04:28

work at it

1:04:29

because they had failures because they sense

1:04:31

lead phone down on the gotten back up and

1:04:34

, fixed the problem they work the problem

1:04:37

they they made amends for the problem

1:04:40

and

1:04:41

the

1:04:43

this country

1:04:46

people say

1:04:53

people say this is a bad country of this is a country

1:04:55

that we should enough not be proud of

1:05:02

the who they comparing it to i'm

1:05:04

in what you know if

1:05:06

it's comparing it's the perfect yeah we're always

1:05:09

gonna fall short of the perfect

1:05:11

home

1:05:13

again i've been reading books out

1:05:15

lately you know this is awesome

1:05:17

what he called the pursuit of perfection

1:05:20

as the crow flies if

1:05:22

he thinks

1:05:25

the measurement of society

1:05:28

and it's moral standing is

1:05:31

based upon how close

1:05:33

is to a perfect ideal

1:05:37

or , fast it is going

1:05:39

towards that perfect ideal then

1:05:42

you know what does it archimedes

1:05:45

arrow someone xenos arrow

1:05:47

right top one of xenos arrow i'm

1:05:50

in in greek philosophy is

1:05:53

that if you

1:05:54

the

1:05:55

measure the distance between the arrow and his

1:05:57

destination and and

1:05:59

mint to pass rate is sort of like

1:06:05

it only moving

1:06:06

if it's only going him in in

1:06:08

segments of half right so it's a hundred yards

1:06:10

away and goes fifty yards and then

1:06:12

it was twenty five yards and i guess twelve point five

1:06:15

yards it will never ever reach it's

1:06:17

destination right it's a mathematical

1:06:20

in a bit of bs technically

1:06:22

because that's not how life works but that's how

1:06:24

people's brains work is that whatever

1:06:26

distance we are from perception will

1:06:28

always be infinite

1:06:30

because he cannot be perfect

1:06:33

and i'm in some

1:06:35

measuring things against some utopian

1:06:37

ideal in the future

1:06:39

or in your head or on paper who

1:06:42

is is a recipe for falling

1:06:45

but if you measure what this country

1:06:48

is the ideals

1:06:50

it does try to move towards in

1:06:52

fits and starts with many a failure

1:06:56

and and you look at what were

1:06:59

the history the comes before

1:07:03

america

1:07:04

before this moment in america

1:07:08

this is a good country

1:07:10

the country that is done enormous good in the

1:07:12

world this is a country

1:07:14

to be prouder and

1:07:16

again you can be critical of critical is

1:07:18

made this way these things were like again

1:07:21

people's heads go weird places

1:07:25

when you say this is a good country or

1:07:27

when you say you should be proud of this country they

1:07:29

immediately rush

1:07:32

them

1:07:33

you know like tourists on the circle

1:07:36

line when someone spots a whale

1:07:38

you know they rushed to that side and say

1:07:40

but look at that will have a problem or

1:07:42

look at you know whatever m

1:07:45

you can do that for every country that ever existed

1:07:48

anywhere in the world even yes

1:07:50

canada

1:07:53

the country

1:07:55

are made up of human beings and human

1:07:57

beings are a real work in progress

1:08:00

this is the first country

1:08:03

seriously be founded

1:08:05

i don't think the only got presented every be found it

1:08:07

on ideal the first

1:08:10

country to be successfully founded

1:08:12

on an ideal home

1:08:15

in part because it took human nature

1:08:17

into account but

1:08:19

you know and those ideal the

1:08:21

miss something of a barack obama was obama

1:08:23

was good on co

1:08:26

the that

1:08:27

there with

1:08:28

the certain

1:08:30

the

1:08:32

logic or algorithm in

1:08:34

the founding principles of this country

1:08:37

that

1:08:38

the

1:08:39

had to work themselves out over time

1:08:42

i'm not a hug alien but it was sort of like a dialectical

1:08:44

process and

1:08:48

that would sorta like ah

1:08:51

the , needs time to make the

1:08:53

irritating piece of sand into a pearl

1:08:56

ah the computer

1:08:58

program needs time to render

1:09:01

ah there's

1:09:02

the

1:09:03

the know

1:09:06

the conflict of hypocrisy

1:09:09

in the american founding they

1:09:11

were created was the irritant that created

1:09:13

the pearl it took time to work out the cognitive

1:09:16

dissonance of ,

1:09:18

american founding i which mean

1:09:20

we started with these very

1:09:23

lofty ideals about you

1:09:25

know equality and the rights

1:09:28

of man and universalism

1:09:30

and all these things and we

1:09:32

didn't apply them

1:09:34

on the ground

1:09:35

in reality it was largely

1:09:38

for

1:09:39

you know

1:09:40

white male landowners

1:09:42

ah maybe not as much as like the

1:09:45

modern day charles beard type say but

1:09:47

sure fine for the sake of this generalization

1:09:49

at the end of an hour long podcast where i'm talking

1:09:53

by myself to a microphone ah fine

1:09:55

stipulate all that stuff slavery was

1:09:57

evil

1:09:59

and it's really important point out that slavery

1:10:02

was evil

1:10:03

the and it's really important point out the hypocrisy

1:10:06

of american sounding but tolerated

1:10:09

that evil

1:10:11

in the one of the reasons why it's really important appointed

1:10:13

out that's because we

1:10:15

overcame it you

1:10:18

know we you know i know it

1:10:20

a lot of jack was

1:10:22

love to make this point as way to sort of like

1:10:24

put their thumb and people's eyes and

1:10:29

that doesn't mean it's not a valid point but remarkable

1:10:31

thing the scope of human history about slavery

1:10:33

in the united states isn't that we had

1:10:36

it

1:10:37

that we got rid of it

1:10:38

the everything that's remarkable that it is that

1:10:41

it was so profoundly hypocritical for us to have

1:10:43

it in the first place

1:10:44

nothing hypocritical about

1:10:46

russia having slaves you

1:10:48

know i mean serfs aren't technically slaves

1:10:51

but they're not far from it or the word

1:10:53

slavs arm is

1:10:55

at the root of

1:10:56

here's a route with slavery ah

1:10:59

there's nothing inherently hypocritical

1:11:02

about muslim countries adding slaves

1:11:06

there is nothing in other mean the ottoman empire

1:11:08

and slaves wherever

1:11:10

the

1:11:11

it was profoundly hypocritical

1:11:14

sea ice data have slaves because we actually

1:11:16

found in ourselves on these ideals and

1:11:19

not just the ideals of universal human equality

1:11:21

and all that kinda stuff but sex no taxation

1:11:23

without representation in albert right

1:11:25

to property the right do you know the freedom

1:11:27

of conscience all of these things we deprived

1:11:30

human beings of that's terrible

1:11:34

it's terrible nurse

1:11:35

lend itself to immoral accomplishment

1:11:38

of getting rid of it

1:11:39

we did what we did in this country

1:11:42

and we did a great human cost

1:11:45

in

1:11:47

it is amazing how much

1:11:50

the

1:11:51

the triumph of the north

1:11:53

the are raised and the resistance

1:11:55

of the south is elevated

1:11:58

by both

1:12:00

saddam

1:12:02

the in other mall in other that

1:12:04

sort of way

1:12:06

racist fringe but also

1:12:09

ah the last anti

1:12:11

racist thrive

1:12:14

as well because you

1:12:16

know they want to talk about how will

1:12:19

how will i have to read another piece that

1:12:21

sort of suggests the south really one or

1:12:23

whatever i'm or that nothing has changed

1:12:26

in america are you know i'm gonna start cutting

1:12:29

myself again because it's just not true

1:12:31

not true

1:12:33

what a forget move

1:12:35

we'll start forget the fact that we amend

1:12:38

the constitution of you times to settle

1:12:40

these questions you know forget

1:12:42

all the supreme court cases forget the fact

1:12:44

that we had we had president forget the fact that we have thousands

1:12:46

of black elected officials across this country

1:12:49

forget the fact that

1:12:51

you know

1:12:53

i'm

1:12:55

the country devotes an enormous

1:12:57

amount of time and energy

1:13:00

and resources towards

1:13:02

being inclusive and and promoting

1:13:05

in a black participate participation

1:13:07

in education and politics and business

1:13:09

and always it's get all that kind of stuff

1:13:12

he's just not very racist

1:13:14

not and we notice

1:13:17

and social science data we notice from our own

1:13:19

lives on this on this

1:13:21

to say

1:13:22

the reason racism in the country of course there

1:13:24

isn't i think david

1:13:27

french

1:13:28

made a point a while back in one of the very first

1:13:30

dispatch lives

1:13:33

we don't think is one of the first things

1:13:35

about race stuff

1:13:36

a long time that sort of really sort

1:13:38

of changed my thinking about some of it in

1:13:41

his point was that in own he he

1:13:43

experiences all sorts of terrible things

1:13:46

i'm using a he is a

1:13:49

black daughter

1:13:50

an

1:13:54

in

1:13:56

his point was

1:13:58

it was sort of a mathematical

1:13:59

sometimes mathematical points have

1:14:02

relief weirdly power for moral

1:14:04

residents with me

1:14:08

you know it's like my stuff about federalism

1:14:10

i like to do it as amassing because i think it's

1:14:12

sort of takes it out of the abstract

1:14:14

and somewhere and somewhere the math is technically

1:14:16

abstracts anyway i'm getting distracted

1:14:20

david makes this point that you

1:14:22

know the for the sake of argument let's

1:14:24

say

1:14:26

then present have

1:14:28

the white population is racist

1:14:30

i think that probably

1:14:33

way too high if we're talking about

1:14:35

or depends on the population depends where you

1:14:37

are in it depends what you mean by racist and

1:14:40

it depends whether or not we're talking about

1:14:42

people's interior thought processes

1:14:45

or their actions right because

1:14:48

there are lots of people who have on charitable views

1:14:50

about all sorts of groups who do who don't

1:14:52

do anything about it they don't know

1:14:55

anything about it and they don't tell anyone

1:14:57

about it would are you gonna do you can get inside

1:14:59

other people set of much as six the sake

1:15:01

of the say for the sake of the math problem

1:15:03

the example ah that's

1:15:05

ten percent

1:15:07

that means that

1:15:10

ninety percent of the white people

1:15:13

that a black person interacts with on any given

1:15:15

day

1:15:16

we're gonna be racist and again obviously

1:15:19

it depends where we're talking about our stuff

1:15:21

and these are just numbers to explain the idea

1:15:24

i'm

1:15:26

the ninety percent of the people they run into

1:15:28

i'm aren't race

1:15:30

that means one is him the people they do run

1:15:32

into white people they run into are

1:15:34

racist and when you start

1:15:36

counting up a number of interactions

1:15:38

you have any given day or given

1:15:41

week or given month

1:15:43

then percent is a huge friggin

1:15:45

number know

1:15:47

if one ten people

1:15:50

showed me some sign

1:15:52

of anti semitism

1:15:54

i would think anti semitism is a massive

1:15:56

problem in this country

1:15:58

and there were there are times

1:15:59

i'm usually when some troll

1:16:02

thing gets activated or the some bad

1:16:04

twitter campaign against me or whatever

1:16:08

there are times when one in ten of my emails

1:16:10

or anti semitic

1:16:12

normally it's really more like point

1:16:14

one percent of my emails or anti semitic

1:16:17

ah

1:16:18

and

1:16:20

and what so i mean

1:16:22

that we don't need to get in the weeds about all that it's

1:16:24

depressing thing when it gets outta hand

1:16:29

but like

1:16:30

it just tell you something about those people

1:16:32

that they think that the this is the way

1:16:34

to come at me ah you know they

1:16:36

see this

1:16:38

super do we name and they're like hot

1:16:40

this is who he is because is how i view

1:16:42

people were super juri names but

1:16:45

my point is point is

1:16:47

in life if

1:16:49

you have anything close those kind that number

1:16:51

of interactions

1:16:54

that's gonna change your view of everything all you need

1:16:56

is like i mean how many bad interactions

1:16:58

do you need with somebody of the dmv

1:17:02

or at the post office

1:17:05

never mind the i rs

1:17:07

before you think you know what all government

1:17:10

bureaucrats away

1:17:11

right me how many bad experiences

1:17:14

do have flying before you make

1:17:16

sweeping judgments about flying

1:17:19

and so i can't remember now how i got onto

1:17:21

this point but my point is yet there are there still

1:17:24

real racism and the and

1:17:26

in and being pissed off about

1:17:28

the country and all the historical present

1:17:30

day it's all legitimate

1:17:33

the same time me just go look at the

1:17:35

number of people

1:17:37

number of black people number white people who

1:17:39

are marrying that people

1:17:41

are why people depend in a way that interracial

1:17:44

marriages are through the roof in this

1:17:46

country and is fine by me when i did you know

1:17:48

it's great i'm in

1:17:50

a i've had this argument i've argument i've friends

1:17:53

in a when they were

1:17:54

ask me for advice about getting married and all those kind

1:17:56

of stuff is in a my point of view

1:17:59

and and

1:18:01

there are different

1:18:03

perfectly legitimate points

1:18:05

of view out there i'm in hope

1:18:08

in mean for some people

1:18:11

you

1:18:12

the mary if you do what you gotta marry a jewish person

1:18:15

totally get it

1:18:16

not my position but i totally respect

1:18:18

that position for among observant

1:18:20

jews

1:18:22

for some people being

1:18:25

conservative means a

1:18:27

beer crazy to marry a liberal i

1:18:29

disagree with that but i also get it like

1:18:31

just the idea of constantly like

1:18:34

in my line of work it would be

1:18:36

the milan or mine and my wife's what line

1:18:38

of work

1:18:39

the be really hard

1:18:41

to spend our days if

1:18:43

we just fundamentally disagreed about

1:18:46

you know all this stuff

1:18:48

i get it but

1:18:51

maybe would be about of his as teach his own

1:18:53

you don't marry

1:18:55

categories you marry people

1:18:58

and i'm when you marry people

1:19:01

they fit some of your preconceived notions

1:19:04

about what the kind of categories you cared about

1:19:06

and sometimes they don't am

1:19:08

i'm but the heart wants what the heart wants

1:19:10

and you have to make to make about what

1:19:13

makes you happy and and i'm

1:19:16

so i couldn't care less about people

1:19:19

about intermarriage at i think is one of the great

1:19:21

things about this country that it

1:19:23

is so popular and i think it it kind

1:19:25

of the clowns so

1:19:28

many of the people talking about how

1:19:30

racist this country is awesome

1:19:33

because he is look on the ground i

1:19:36

think it's fair to say

1:19:38

that

1:19:39

if you

1:19:41

are willing to make babies

1:19:44

with somebody have a different race you're

1:19:46

probably not racist towards that race

1:19:49

i'm certainly make babies within

1:19:51

the context of marriage and

1:19:53

sherry resources and a home and raise them and

1:19:55

i think that's a something wonderful about this country because

1:19:57

that would be an unimaginable even fifty years

1:19:59

go the rates of intermarriage in this country so

1:20:02

what michael beasley all the indicators are good and

1:20:05

i'm kind of sadek i went off on

1:20:07

this tangent because

1:20:09

the problem is is like

1:20:12

racism isn't the only

1:20:15

racial attitudes which again i think are so much

1:20:17

better than people think they are right racial

1:20:19

attitudes is not the only

1:20:23

item on a more checklist

1:20:25

for

1:20:27

as a society or frankly

1:20:29

a person i'm in you can

1:20:32

a water weight on it but fine better defensible

1:20:34

position but this country isn't

1:20:36

just about his history of history

1:20:38

of relations and again and much on

1:20:41

a minimize any of that stuff i'm just

1:20:43

trying to say that you know

1:20:45

could you did a lot of other good things liberated

1:20:47

europe

1:20:50

did more for the relief of mans

1:20:52

the state as francis bacon would put it in

1:20:55

terms of technological

1:20:57

innovation in terms of

1:20:59

seeding

1:21:01

the poor

1:21:02

the

1:21:04

in terms of prolonging

1:21:07

an enriching weiss and life expectancy

1:21:09

the any society high

1:21:12

bar and all human history it

1:21:14

has done more to alleviate poverty

1:21:18

than any country in human history

1:21:21

and arm

1:21:23

done more to

1:21:25

and it up in instantiate

1:21:27

in law in custom and tradition

1:21:30

notions of of freedom

1:21:32

the human dignity

1:21:34

than almost any other criminal or i don't know you make

1:21:36

an argument but some other countries but a lot of those countries

1:21:39

wouldn't be what they are were it not

1:21:41

for the out the existence of the united states

1:21:43

of america and the example of the united states of america

1:21:47

we produce and past a cultural thing

1:21:50

we're a good and decent people

1:21:52

yeah there are a lot of boneheaded

1:21:55

people out there right now and they're a lot of

1:21:57

people who aren't being there bestseller

1:21:59

the

1:21:59

the great and glorious plays an

1:22:02

arm

1:22:05

if you don't teach people but why

1:22:07

they should be

1:22:08

oh look at

1:22:10

the

1:22:11

you're going to let

1:22:13

all the arguments about why you should hate

1:22:15

it or not be proud of it or not care about

1:22:17

it

1:22:18

fill that void or

1:22:21

you're going to let the really

1:22:24

the nastiest arguments for

1:22:26

why you should like the or like this country

1:22:29

when i'm admitting that sort of

1:22:31

that is me the most about so much of the stuff on the right

1:22:35

you know they wrap some of these people wrap

1:22:37

themselves up and in with language

1:22:39

of patriotism arm

1:22:42

in love of country love of constitution

1:22:44

am i don't buy it

1:22:47

because , boop boop boop

1:22:49

politics and the additives in the behaviors

1:22:51

that flow from these alleged you know

1:22:54

commitments are also ugly

1:22:56

and illiberal

1:22:58

and now and

1:23:01

the computers

1:23:02

on democratic and unconstitutional

1:23:06

the know why

1:23:09

i don't want

1:23:11

the marjorie retailer green

1:23:14

definition of nationalism which is

1:23:16

this christian nationalism thing which i think

1:23:19

i literally think literally can make can better case

1:23:21

for christian nationalism vinci

1:23:23

code or than or than of people who are

1:23:27

promoting it because i actually understand

1:23:29

the history of the argument them waded

1:23:32

into it a lot and i could pass

1:23:34

a turing test making the case where

1:23:36

obviously i rejected but

1:23:38

when i really don't want is for that kind

1:23:40

of militaristic tribal

1:23:43

murphy ethno nationalist

1:23:46

or or m c o nationalist

1:23:48

sort of definitions of patriotism

1:23:51

which are basically just or populist will to power

1:23:54

our will to power garbage i don't

1:23:56

want those things to replace the

1:23:58

big hearted

1:24:02

patriotic definitions

1:24:04

of what it means to love your

1:24:06

country and to support

1:24:09

and defend the system but

1:24:11

it was set up by the casino the instruction

1:24:13

manual that it was set up by

1:24:15

that that the i

1:24:17

mean i don't mean this in a partisan way

1:24:20

that the natural home for conservatism

1:24:22

because conservatism is all about conserving

1:24:25

what is best and what is beautiful

1:24:27

conservatism is about in i was

1:24:29

you've all exits or gratitude

1:24:33

it's about seeing what are the things that

1:24:35

i am most grateful for about this country

1:24:37

the society this this

1:24:40

this time that i was born into

1:24:42

that i want to pass along to the future

1:24:46

the the natural conservative orientation

1:24:49

to be patriotic in that

1:24:51

sense

1:24:52

the took away and america because what we're trying

1:24:54

to conserve is in many ways many

1:24:57

radical

1:24:58

departure from all of human history

1:25:01

and people for me do this spill

1:25:03

in i'm looking into my book but that's the point

1:25:06

in my book and and

1:25:08

that's the thing that's you know i'm sort of in politics

1:25:10

at the end of the day and probably

1:25:13

most passionate about

1:25:16

the

1:25:17

you know

1:25:18

like i can do the whole in

1:25:20

a what patriotism means to me kind of thing

1:25:22

in our our region little coolidge because and will make

1:25:25

it a tradition around for the july but

1:25:27

i'm

1:25:29

i can do all that stuff i've been doing

1:25:31

that for five years now six years now

1:25:33

ever since i wrote that book or even before with

1:25:35

the rise of trump

1:25:38

really i just have a more basic level

1:25:41

on

1:25:42

putting aside the creedal arguments putting

1:25:44

aside the know these are the important tax

1:25:46

and all that kind of stuff

1:25:49

there is

1:25:51

a fundamental goodness

1:25:54

about what

1:25:55

the best version of america because

1:25:57

there are some bad versions of americans are going to deny

1:25:59

that

1:25:59

but the best version of what it means

1:26:02

to be an american is

1:26:07

that's a fantastic departure

1:26:09

from what it meant to be a normal human being

1:26:12

for most of human history

1:26:14

because what it meant to be in america over

1:26:17

for central to the idea of being an american

1:26:19

is taking people as you find them

1:26:22

i've not immediately assigning

1:26:24

them to members of a class or

1:26:27

race or some or

1:26:29

religion or some other group

1:26:32

the whole like

1:26:33

distillation of the best

1:26:35

version of americans is

1:26:37

, let people live their lives

1:26:40

and judge them by their their behaviors

1:26:43

and their actions and to how they treat

1:26:45

you and how they treat other people and

1:26:47

not judge them by some abstract

1:26:51

the uri

1:26:52

or concept that lets you

1:26:54

off the hook for making moral judgments

1:26:57

right the , for

1:26:59

consummate laziness of the medieval

1:27:02

mind with a racist mind or even the nationalists

1:27:04

mine fat

1:27:06

the identity politics mine the gets

1:27:08

to say

1:27:10

i did like this category of people

1:27:13

and therefore anybody who who's

1:27:16

falls into this category i get to

1:27:18

make moral judgments about without talking

1:27:20

to them without dealing with

1:27:22

them and anyway without looking

1:27:25

at the specific specificity of

1:27:27

their own lives because i'm

1:27:29

letting the category do all the work

1:27:31

for me

1:27:33

a profound laziness and

1:27:35

is utterly and holy

1:27:38

natural

1:27:39

what our brains wanna do

1:27:42

it's what all sorts of isms towers

1:27:44

to do oh he's a member the bourgeoisie

1:27:47

you can be hung with the rest of i'm it doesn't matter if he's not

1:27:49

guilty of anything right i'm ,

1:27:51

black he doesn't get the vote eat of it's

1:27:54

that sort of thing which is this a unbelievable

1:27:57

this a of categorical thank

1:27:59

you

1:27:59

i'm that the american

1:28:03

butcher in the american experiment

1:28:05

works against

1:28:07

and then of this unbelievably

1:28:10

wonderful

1:28:12

inglorious thing and we have export

1:28:14

it it

1:28:15

the philosophical concept we have export

1:28:17

of it as a cultural concept we

1:28:20

have export of it as it as

1:28:22

as

1:28:25

the ideal

1:28:26

around the world and or bunch of people who hate it

1:28:29

because they like categorical thinking

1:28:31

the like

1:28:32

you know to judge people by as groups

1:28:35

rather than as individuals they

1:28:37

also like to live as part of groups rather

1:28:39

than as individuals

1:28:41

that's fine and that's natural

1:28:43

and their of a zillion places around

1:28:46

the globe that you can do that and there are places

1:28:48

in america where you can do that

1:28:51

but the great and glorious thing about this country

1:28:54

that as a culture and as a society

1:28:57

and as a legal system but had

1:29:00

that bad to spend two centuries working out

1:29:02

some of these things we went a different

1:29:04

way

1:29:05

and we said that you you

1:29:08

that the individual sovereign that we are captains

1:29:10

of ourselves and

1:29:14

perfectly legitimate arguments and some of that stuff

1:29:16

is gone too far and that we need

1:29:18

to sort of

1:29:22

both your juice up the communitarian

1:29:25

or republican small are republican

1:29:27

aspects of american life i'm very sympathetic

1:29:29

that can certainly i me times we talked about that

1:29:31

on this podcast

1:29:34

no

1:29:37

love the you the the central

1:29:39

american this of america

1:29:41

and for americans

1:29:44

imma sort of fish don't know they're wet kind

1:29:46

of fan

1:29:47

take for granted every single day

1:29:50

the great thing about talking to

1:29:53

immigrants to this country

1:29:55

let me see it i mean they

1:29:57

see just how well they are in this

1:29:59

kind of thinking and that's why they came

1:30:02

here as my friend peter sram

1:30:04

said you know he was born american just in the

1:30:06

wrong place that's

1:30:09

normally wonderful thing about this country

1:30:12

me talk the trolley cook about this that i'm

1:30:16

that is what does he notes mean

1:30:18

they're all sorts of things that are great about this country and people

1:30:20

of good cheer and goodwill can pick their

1:30:22

own things that they love about this country but that's

1:30:24

sort of what i love about it is that we

1:30:27

rejected all that garbage

1:30:30

from much of the old world personally

1:30:32

entire world going back

1:30:35

the agricultural revolution and was to get

1:30:37

we're going to do it a different way that

1:30:40

you can't necessarily tell whether someone's rich or

1:30:42

poor by how they dress that you can't tell whether

1:30:44

someone is good or bad by the color of their skin

1:30:47

or by their gender

1:30:49

that you can't judge people

1:30:52

until he actually know people

1:30:54

and i'm and that the

1:30:56

law is going to reflect that

1:30:59

cultural norm by treating

1:31:01

everybody equally in the eyes of

1:31:03

government because they're all equal in the eyes

1:31:05

of god i

1:31:07

really think of those things can't be improved upon

1:31:09

and so as as sitting with tradition

1:31:12

i now it's old hat for some of you

1:31:14

but it gets me every time and

1:31:18

i'm going to read from calvin coolidge's

1:31:21

address on one hundred fiftieth anniversary

1:31:24

of

1:31:25

i'm

1:31:27

the founding or of so declaration

1:31:29

of independence i should say and it is

1:31:33

alpha male to long time listeners or the readers

1:31:35

in my book they know business

1:31:37

familiar passage them it's my favorite passage but

1:31:39

i highly recommend reading

1:31:41

whole thing

1:31:44

it's really wonderful second best thing ever said

1:31:46

about the declaration after the gettysburg address

1:31:49

or if you wanna say wanna third best thing

1:31:51

if you want martin luther king's

1:31:53

i have a dream speech i had of

1:31:56

the

1:31:58

the economic

1:32:02

i'm a little more reluctant to say the i have a dream speech

1:32:05

was about the declaration so much as it

1:32:07

invoked it and that's perfectly

1:32:09

the thinking buy me but anyway

1:32:11

you're them my favorite passages

1:32:13

a some of you know

1:32:15

about the decoration there is a finality

1:32:17

that is exceedingly restful

1:32:20

it is often asserted that the world is made

1:32:22

a great deal of progress and seventeen seventy

1:32:24

six that we have had new thoughts

1:32:26

and new experiences which have given us

1:32:28

a great advance over the people of that day

1:32:31

and that we may therefore very well discard

1:32:33

their conclusions for something

1:32:35

more modern

1:32:38

but that reasoning cannot be applied

1:32:40

to this great charter

1:32:42

if all men are created

1:32:45

equal

1:32:46

that is final if

1:32:48

they are endowed with unalienable rights

1:32:51

that is fine if

1:32:53

governments derive their just powers

1:32:55

from the consent of the govern

1:32:58

that is final no advance no progress

1:33:00

can be made beyond these propositions if

1:33:03

anyone wishes to deny their truth or

1:33:05

their soundness the only direction

1:33:08

in which he can proceed historically

1:33:10

the not forward

1:33:12

backward backward towards the time

1:33:15

when there was no we quality no

1:33:17

rights of the individual

1:33:18

no rule of the people those

1:33:21

who wish to proceed in that direction cannot

1:33:23

lay claim to progress

1:33:26

they are reactionary their

1:33:28

ideas are not war modern

1:33:30

that more ancient than those

1:33:32

of the revolutionary father

1:33:36

this is my friends sugiyama was right

1:33:39

the wasn't thing that his or when he said we're at the end the history

1:33:42

he wasn't thing that has risen to stop

1:33:45

he wasn't saying that events of consequence were gonna

1:33:47

happen he wasn't saying that we couldn't

1:33:49

fall back in time to the

1:33:51

air regress and that bad things couldn't happen

1:33:54

he was saying that we basically figure

1:33:57

that out what can be

1:33:59

it up

1:33:59

how to organize

1:34:01

human society

1:34:04

based on those propositions

1:34:06

there's a lot of room and those proposition

1:34:08

the have a very generous welfare state or

1:34:10

a social democratic he knows or

1:34:13

of what bernie sanders would think of is

1:34:15

how scandinavia works kind of society are

1:34:17

you an arrow in

1:34:20

what your freak flag fly i'm

1:34:24

the or narco capitalist libertarian

1:34:26

society i remain on

1:34:28

our a narco but you have a libertarian

1:34:30

society on according those

1:34:32

propositions

1:34:34

the

1:34:35

the point is that the can't be really improved upon

1:34:38

on you can't say

1:34:41

that

1:34:45

we're going to come up with a better system

1:34:47

than the one that assumes all people are created equal

1:34:50

you're not gonna come up with a better idea

1:34:54

that we are endowed with certain inalienable

1:34:56

rights

1:34:57

the one i like the the left doesn't dispute

1:34:59

that were and out with unalienable rights

1:35:02

the right doesn't dispute that were and outta with

1:35:04

an inalienable rights we just have arguments

1:35:06

about which ones are of the unalienable

1:35:08

rights

1:35:09

but even there there's a lot overlap and

1:35:11

the venn diagrams the country believes in

1:35:13

right

1:35:15

the country in a

1:35:16

the leaders and these propositions

1:35:19

at a gut level

1:35:21

and you know if governments derive

1:35:23

their just powers from the consent of the governed

1:35:27

what the better you know

1:35:29

what's the improvement upon that

1:35:31

that were worse at that someone might be striving

1:35:33

for

1:35:34

what makes thing you know how

1:35:36

, that not final minutes worth noting

1:35:38

that you know all of the totalitarian regimes

1:35:42

the lab hundred and fifty years

1:35:45

he claimed to be somehow

1:35:47

democratic you know they

1:35:49

like to use the word democracy in

1:35:52

the in the titles for their country countries

1:35:54

you know that , people's democratic

1:35:56

republic of this the you know and

1:35:59

albert

1:36:01

but the thing is that they were lying

1:36:04

but that lying was the tribune

1:36:06

but

1:36:07

the tyranny pays to freedom

1:36:10

because there is no moral legitimacy

1:36:12

last for on freedom

1:36:14

there are some people are trying hard to

1:36:16

find it they're gonna fail and

1:36:19

if even if they do come up with some great argument

1:36:21

for

1:36:22

it will not be in advance on these propositions

1:36:25

because the argue all the

1:36:27

arguments for and freedom for

1:36:29

tyranny for authoritarianism for totalitarianism

1:36:31

whatever you want to call they're

1:36:34

old arguments a frickin really

1:36:36

old arguments they can be found

1:36:38

in the arguments for the divine right of kings

1:36:40

the can be found and are arguments for

1:36:42

a caesar the can be found in the arguments

1:36:45

for

1:36:46

every to hire and to ever live

1:36:49

they are not more modern even if you've got

1:36:51

see them up with all sorts of expertise

1:36:54

sounding words and optimal outcomes

1:36:56

and am and no sound

1:36:58

science and technocracy and all

1:37:00

that kind of stuff that is just all

1:37:02

lipstick on the pig of tyranny

1:37:05

the really fantastic

1:37:08

break threw

1:37:10

revolutionary thing in human history

1:37:12

with this idea

1:37:15

that

1:37:16

though

1:37:17

a right come from gardner from government that citizens

1:37:20

not subjects the fruits of our

1:37:22

labors belong to us

1:37:26

that transform the world and

1:37:28

america live that

1:37:30

transformation and i think continues

1:37:32

to me that transformation despite

1:37:35

all of these other things plus

1:37:37

, just that makes a nice place to live so

1:37:39

happy fourth of july thank you for listening

1:37:41

i know i went really long sigh ryan

1:37:43

you're gonna have to deal with this maybe you cut

1:37:45

off some of the stuff up front i don't know

1:37:49

know thanks for listening i appreciate it and

1:37:51

athena

1:38:16

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