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1:38

Welcome to The Rest Is Money with me,

1:40

Robert Pastan. I'm stuck my

1:42

government. Still away on her mystery project. Liz

1:45

Truss still with me and so much

1:48

still to ask you, Liz. So

1:52

the Bank of England put in place this

1:54

rescue program. It committed $65 billion

1:56

to buying government bonds to stabilize

1:58

the bond market. after the mini

2:01

budget. And they set a deadline of

2:03

October the 14th or Friday for ending

2:05

this support. You

2:08

were given advice by

2:10

senior officials that

2:13

in order to stabilize the government bond market,

2:15

in order to bring the cost of borrowing

2:17

down for the government, the first thing you

2:19

had to do was

2:21

sack your Chancellor, put

2:24

in a new Chancellor and reverse much that was

2:26

in the mini budget. Do

2:28

you ever think to

2:30

yourself that that

2:32

was the wrong advice and you should have

2:34

tough it out? This was

2:36

Simon Case I think who was saying this to

2:38

you, the cabinet secretary. And I received a letter

2:40

saying that as well. A formal letter from the

2:42

cabinet. It's quite serious. It's very serious. So he

2:45

wrote a formal letter saying we're going to hand

2:47

in a handcart, you won't be able to borrow

2:49

if you don't sack your Chancellor and reverse

2:51

the mini budget. It wasn't, it was, the

2:53

pressure on me was to reverse the mini

2:55

budget. So nobody said you got a sack quasi but they

2:57

said you have to reverse the mini budget. So what?

2:59

The events of that week

3:02

were on Monday morning one

3:04

of the newspapers had a

3:06

front-plane splash that I was going to be

3:08

forced to reverse Corporation tax. And this is the

3:11

type of thing that went on is the

3:13

media were briefed and they were leaked to

3:15

to force me to reverse the policy. And

3:17

this is by people who were allegedly working,

3:19

well they were meant to be working in

3:21

the government, they were clearly not working for

3:23

the Prime Minister or the Chancellor, which is

3:25

I think we've got a major democratic. Do

3:28

you think these were Whitehall officials doing the

3:30

leaking? Or do you think these were your

3:32

political colleagues? I hadn't seen

3:34

the OBR forecast myself. So I

3:36

don't know how other people would

3:39

have got hold of that. But what so

3:41

what was leaked was the OBR was saying

3:43

that the deficit was even bigger than the

3:46

Treasury thought. Which the figures turned

3:48

out to be completely wrong. And

3:50

by the autumn budget the figures were much

3:52

lower. But anyway the point is the

3:54

leak of the 70 billion pound OBR calculation. of

4:00

what the deficit would be. That massively upset

4:02

investors. It did as a day spook

4:04

markets. Yeah. And that was in my

4:07

view, and I don't know who was

4:09

running this, but that was a concerted

4:11

campaign to force me to change policy.

4:13

And Quasi by them had gone to

4:15

the IMF in Washington, he wasn't in

4:17

the country. You've got to remember here

4:20

that I was the Prime Minister, not

4:22

the Chancellor. So I had

4:24

an overview of what was going on. But

4:26

it was Quasi Quating who was doing all

4:28

the detailed work. Of course, I

4:30

was there, you know, discussing it, we

4:32

were agreeing on the plans, but really,

4:35

he was the one having the

4:37

discussions with the Bank of England with the

4:39

Treasury officials, making sure everything was fine beforehand.

4:41

What happened when he went to the IMF

4:43

is that I ended up being the one

4:46

everything was presented to. And I was

4:48

under huge pressure from everybody

4:50

in the building pretty much to

4:53

reverse those policies. And

4:55

I believed it was the wrong

4:57

thing to reverse those policies, that it

4:59

would make Britain worse off. But

5:01

when it got to the point

5:04

where people said it would cause

5:06

a debt crisis, and we didn't

5:08

know what was going to happen on the Monday cliff edge.

5:10

And can I just be clear, Simon Case

5:13

wrote you a formal letter saying as head

5:15

of the civil service, his view was that

5:17

if you don't reverse the mini budget, there

5:19

will you will be hearing

5:21

from the Bank of England. So he said in his

5:24

letter, I am being told by the Bank of England

5:26

that if you do not reverse the mini budget, the

5:29

government will not be able to borrow next week. Pretty

5:31

much. I mean, I can't remember the exact wording, but

5:33

that was the gist of it. That was the gist. And

5:36

as you say, you know, it is impossible

5:38

for a Prime Minister to ignore that. I mean, I

5:40

could not ignore that letter. And, but you

5:42

think it was, you know, I am somebody

5:44

Do you think because that is an amazingly

5:46

shocking thing for a cabinet secretary

5:48

to tell a Prime Minister, was he telling

5:50

the truth? Well, let's let's just go

5:53

back to what had happened before. So

5:55

prior to the mini budget, when we'd

5:57

spent weeks preparing the mini budget with

6:00

officials, people thought it could create, you

6:02

know, they'd have got an estimate of

6:04

what the market impact would be, but

6:06

it was all within reasonable bounds. So

6:08

we felt reassured to go ahead with

6:11

the mini budget. We didn't know anything

6:13

about the LDI crisis. So given

6:15

that I had been blown out of the

6:18

water on the Monday following the mini budget,

6:20

thinking the mini budget had gone well, thinking

6:22

that the reaction was, you

6:24

know, pretty much I was suspected.

6:26

And then the following Monday, being

6:28

absolutely shocked that the markets

6:30

had gone wild as a result

6:32

of the LDI issue, when I

6:35

was presented with that information from

6:37

senior officials, I

6:39

was not going to put the

6:41

country's ability to fund its

6:43

own spending at risk. I was not

6:45

going to do that, Robert. I had to...

6:48

Of course not. I mean... But you say, of course

6:50

not, but there are some people who say you should have stood

6:52

firm and not resiled

6:54

from the corporation tax. There's too big

6:56

a risk. And, you know, by that

6:58

stage, I knew deep

7:01

down that probably my days were numbered.

7:03

But what I had to do was

7:05

make sure that the country wasn't plunged

7:07

into a crisis. That was my

7:10

duty. Of course it

7:12

was your duty. I just was

7:14

wondering now that you've had more

7:16

time to reflect on this, whether

7:19

there was another way, another route you could

7:22

have taken at that stage, only because... I

7:24

literally try. I thought about everything. I

7:26

thought about everything. I mean, the

7:29

problem was by that stage, you

7:31

know, the political atmosphere was freebrile,

7:33

the market atmosphere was freebrile. It

7:35

was clear to the world that

7:38

the economic institutions did not back

7:41

my economic policy. So that

7:43

was a very difficult position to be

7:45

in. And ultimately, I had

7:47

to throw the kitchen sink at

7:50

making sure that we

7:52

didn't end up in a worse position, which

7:54

is why I regrettably had to sack quasi,

7:57

which I didn't want to do. But I thought, you know, this is a very difficult position to

7:59

be in. the need to be somebody

8:02

who could front up the new set

8:04

of policies. Policies which essentially were the

8:06

policies of the economic establishment. They'd got

8:08

their own way. You must have

8:10

been aware that

8:12

for a Prime

8:15

Minister to sack

8:17

a Chancellor so soon after taking office

8:20

and in a Tory party that had had

8:23

recent history of regicide

8:25

of throwing out a Prime Minister

8:28

that you were probably signing your own

8:30

death warrant. Well, probably. Did you

8:32

think about that at the time? That if you

8:34

sacked QALDI, you were almost certainly on your way

8:36

out yourself. I probably knew that. I probably knew

8:38

that. But I

8:40

was more concerned with the

8:43

bottom not falling out of

8:45

the government's being able to finance itself.

8:47

I mean, that was, I'd moved

8:50

into, you know, it was very

8:52

serious. I'd moved into damage limitation

8:54

mode. I can't imagine

8:56

the stress you must be feeling at the time because I

8:58

mean, this is an enormous away responsibility on your shoulders at

9:00

that point. Yeah. I mean,

9:02

the whole frustration here is that

9:04

I did not feel that I

9:07

had the levers to actually exercise

9:09

the responsibility that I was being

9:11

blamed for a crisis that

9:13

was largely of somebody

9:16

else's making. But, you know, politics

9:18

is what it is. And,

9:21

you know, well, I think most

9:23

people would say there's been a shared response. But I

9:25

do want to I think it's worth

9:27

just on this shared responsibility issue. One of

9:30

the things that I write about in my

9:32

book, 10 years to save the West, which

9:34

I believe you very kindly read, Robert. I have

9:36

read it. It's a gripping read. It's

9:38

a gripping read. There we are. Robert

9:40

Pess is gripping reads. The sort of

9:43

oversight of the economy in Britain has

9:45

become very balkanized. So you know, you

9:47

have the Bank of England with these

9:49

responsibilities, you know, it's become clear to

9:51

me that the Bank of England wasn't

9:53

even communicating within itself, let alone with

9:55

the Treasury. You've got the OBR forecasting

9:57

system, which acts independently of the Treasury.

10:00

and essentially presents the Chancellor

10:02

with his pocket money every

10:04

two weeks during a

10:06

fiscal event. You've got

10:08

the different regulatory

10:11

authorities and there

10:13

has become this doctrine in the

10:15

Treasury that the Chancellor doesn't really

10:17

question monetary policy at all. So,

10:20

I was sitting there as Prime Minister

10:22

with a clear set of economic policies,

10:24

with a Chancellor with clear set of

10:26

economic policies that really we weren't able

10:28

to fully enact. This

10:30

is why I'm prepared to

10:32

take responsibility for things that

10:34

I know about and I have a

10:37

decision-making power over but that

10:39

is not the case. The problem... You're

10:41

not very good at wooing people. In fact,

10:43

you do the opposite. This is not a

10:45

dating show. It's not a dating show but

10:47

you don't have to sack the head of

10:50

the Treasury the moment you come in. You

10:52

don't have to... You say the establishment is

10:54

against you and maybe the establishment,

10:56

frankly, was always going to be wary of

10:58

the kind of things that you wanted to

11:01

do but you didn't exactly help your cause

11:03

by getting rid of, in a sense, this

11:05

sort of symbol of that establishment. Obviously, at

11:07

that point, the others around are going to

11:10

say, you

11:12

know, this person is just out to

11:14

get us. Shouldn't you at least be

11:16

trying to persuade people of your point of

11:18

view rather than just pushing them out the door, ignoring

11:20

the OBR and all the rest of it? I mean,

11:22

we didn't ignore the OBR. The OBR

11:24

were not asked for a forecast on

11:27

any of the furlough announcements, which

11:30

were bigger than the mini-budget.

11:32

Arguably in the case of the furlough announcements,

11:34

we were in the middle of an absolute national

11:36

crisis. People would say the crisis we were in

11:39

as a result of you was one you created

11:41

and you could have avoided it if you'd done

11:43

a bit more wooing of the so-called establishment rather

11:45

than alienating them. You know, rather than alienating them.

11:48

Well, I think it's absolutely right that

11:50

a chancellor should be able to choose

11:52

the permanent secretary working for him. And

11:54

I think most people in

11:56

Britain will be astonished to know that that

11:58

isn't the case. And the

12:01

fact that there was such a

12:03

furor about that shows to me

12:05

that permanent officials in the

12:07

government have too much power. That's what it shows

12:09

to me. I think it's a

12:11

completely reasonable thing to say, I'm

12:14

a new chancellor. I

12:16

want to work with a permanent secretary

12:18

who understands my philosophy, wants to implement

12:20

it. I think that's perfectly reasonable. I

12:22

think we've got a problem in Britain

12:25

if it's not the

12:27

politicians who are democratically accountable

12:29

who can actually change things.

12:32

But can I just ask, even with the

12:34

benefit of hindsight, you still don't think it

12:36

would have been better to engage in a

12:38

bit more persuasion and a little less steam-riling?

12:41

Well look, I've been a government minister

12:43

for 10 years. So I've spent a

12:45

lot of time using both

12:48

tactics, could I say. And

12:51

I've got a lot of things done, whether

12:53

it's the trade deals I did at

12:55

trade, whether it's the Ukraine

12:57

support and sanctions I did at the

12:59

Foreign Office, getting Nazanine out of jail,

13:02

which was no mean feat. So

13:04

I'm capable of both of

13:06

those strategies. And it was

13:09

a judgement at the time. I mean, I have to say,

13:11

the way the economic establishment

13:13

reacted to trying to change

13:15

things shows to me that they have become

13:17

extremely powerful. And lots of people say that

13:19

what we did has empowered them and the

13:21

OBR is more powerful than ever. But

13:25

to me, it shows the fact

13:27

that things haven't really changed very much

13:30

in economic policy for the last 20

13:32

years because we have

13:34

such powerful economic institutions.

13:37

And I do think that is not very

13:39

democratic. Liz, we're just going to

13:41

break there plenty more gripping stuff

13:43

to put to you in a minute

13:45

or two. Discover

13:48

game changing technologies by the set

13:50

to disrupt the year ahead from

13:52

bioengineering and the ethics of Gen

13:55

AI tech driven sustainability. The HCL

13:57

tech transport provides strategic insights. that

13:59

will help drive innovation and shape

14:01

the future of your business. Hear

14:03

the thoughts of global leaders and

14:05

gain valuable insights that unlock the

14:07

power of cutting-edge technology. Click on

14:09

the link to download this report

14:12

now. Now

14:30

you chose as Chancellor, your second Chancellor, Jeremy Hunt who

14:53

sort of the political antithesis of

14:56

you. He, in your

14:58

terms, has very much

15:01

pursued what you

15:03

would call the establishment agenda.

15:07

For example, I think in your view, not for example

15:09

trying to cut taxes fast enough,

15:11

not pushing through the kind of radical supply

15:13

side changes that you want to see fast

15:17

enough. Why did you choose him?

15:19

Well, I chose him for that reason. Was

15:21

he your first choice? Yes, I

15:23

chose him because I needed

15:25

somebody who could stabilize

15:27

the situation, who people

15:30

knew, I mean by that

15:32

stage, frankly, I could

15:34

see the battle was lost in order to

15:36

make these changes. My whole

15:38

strategy and quasi-strategy had been

15:40

to try and take

15:43

the action early on

15:45

all fronts, on the supply side, on

15:48

the public spending, on the

15:50

tax reductions to change

15:53

Britain's economic trajectory. And we

15:55

had to do that quickly, otherwise we

15:57

wouldn't see things start to improve quickly.

16:00

enough. That was absolutely key. As I've

16:02

said, we developed our policies

16:04

with Treasury officials, and I don't believe

16:06

there's any one person at the Treasury

16:08

that can do things. There are plenty

16:11

of good officials at Treasury. We developed our

16:13

policies, but our plan was

16:15

undermined, in

16:18

my view, in large part. I'm not saying I'm

16:20

perfect, Robert. I'm not saying that at all. Good

16:22

God. But I'm saying in

16:24

large part, it was undermined by

16:26

the very actors we

16:29

were concerned about, in the first

16:31

place. I felt that the opportunity

16:33

to do that had been lost. Of

16:35

course, I'm a patria. I did not want the

16:37

country not to be able to fund its debt.

16:40

I didn't want us to be in

16:42

that situation. I worked with Jeremy Hunt

16:45

before I brought in the person that

16:47

I thought would reassure the establishment. Now,

16:50

if, like me, you think

16:52

it's an absolute priority to

16:54

get the UK out of

16:56

this period of stagnation, the

16:58

thing that you would

17:02

criticise you for is

17:04

this. This would be true whether you're

17:06

on the left or whether you're

17:09

on the right. It would be that you

17:12

have made a whole generation

17:15

of politicians just way too

17:17

risk-averse. If you look at

17:19

the current debate between your

17:22

party, Stama,

17:29

arguably they're just arguing about

17:31

marginal differences of

17:34

tax, of economic policy. The

17:36

thing that they're terrified of is

17:40

being seen to increase borrowing in

17:42

a way that could spook the

17:44

market. That boxes people

17:46

in in a way that means

17:48

that it's even harder than it

17:51

was to get the kind

17:53

of economic policy changes, as I say, either from

17:55

a Left perspective or a

17:57

right perspective, that might get. A

18:00

sense of hope back into the British people

18:02

that their lives are gonna be better. Will

18:06

you accept responsibility that you had this

18:08

big opportunity and you blew it? We.

18:10

Won't be surprised to hear identically the hear

18:12

about what is to said. To.

18:15

My mind there is be than

18:17

economic consensus in this country. Since.

18:20

Visited. The late Nineties and

18:22

ah, it's the turn of the

18:25

century. The Uk. His. Name

18:27

we spent thirty six percent of Gdp only

18:29

got not. We now spend forty

18:31

five percent of gdp on the

18:33

government or taxes or record high

18:35

A We've become more heavily regulated.

18:37

Ah already see costs have become

18:40

more expensive. Are planning systems

18:42

become even more byzantine if that

18:44

were possible? and I think we

18:46

have in a similar period to

18:49

the period we were of the

18:51

previous economic consensus under the likes

18:53

of Macmillan had he's. Harold.

18:55

Wilson and I was trying to break

18:57

out of that consensus. It wasn't It

19:00

wasn't like politicians before me had done

19:02

radical supply side to forms and tax

19:04

cuts and. Will notice I'm just

19:06

I'm Margaret Thatcher Certainly had their. I'm

19:08

saying since the late nineties, That's.

19:11

The timeline I'm talking about that you're

19:13

saying that politicians and will receive us.

19:15

I think politicians have been risk of

19:17

us are some time but I think

19:19

there. Had been a growing mood around

19:21

the place that we needed to make

19:24

radical changes. You have to the other

19:26

be that the House of Commons recently

19:28

think that are good, but it does

19:30

not. true. but I know about what

19:32

are you at. But people became even

19:34

more risk averse after your forty nine

19:37

sizing. They were pretty risk of us

19:39

already. but I think more to

19:41

the points which is the point

19:43

I'm making the book. The institutions

19:45

the unelected bureaucrats and person have

19:47

gotten more on more powerful of

19:49

more more difficult to take on.

19:51

And I'm not just talking about

19:53

the economic institutions, I'm also talking

19:55

about the way the judiciary was

19:57

empowered under Tony Blair by the.

20:00

Relation of the traditional role of

20:02

the Lord Chancellor I'm talking about

20:04

the empowerment of lawyers in the

20:06

system and you can see this

20:08

in the difficulty of delivering all

20:10

migration policy and the empowerment of.

20:13

Other in Aden on the

20:15

lack says ah institutions of

20:17

the Climate Change Committee big.

20:19

Another good example say what

20:21

I'm saying is that power

20:23

has been outsource from politicians

20:26

to on elected. Bureaucrats And

20:28

that. Has limited politicians room for maneuver.

20:30

Now I tried to break As As

20:32

and I bear the scars of trying

20:34

to break out that the that doesn't

20:37

mean that everybody before me was he

20:39

know. I think if you look at

20:41

the thought that we haven't got the

20:43

you laws of ah statute books, why

20:45

is that in eight because of the

20:47

parliamentary party wants to do that? So

20:49

why hasn't happened? I think people aren't

20:51

asking deep enough questions. Look, it

20:54

may be. The case

20:56

votes. Varies an aversion

20:58

to a radical change in some

21:01

parts of what whole that may

21:03

be the case hundred and media

21:05

but but they're mad When easier

21:07

on we're that that landed corporate

21:09

sector. All of this. And are you?

21:12

I was in the M Twenty five. I guys

21:14

but let alone or never had

21:16

killer to be up bullets they

21:18

absolutely clear. However, I don't think

21:20

we could argue that we are

21:22

living through. You. Know this era

21:24

of jobs when it comes with

21:26

people like to the the House

21:29

of Commons. You're basically saying you

21:31

know City is astonishing to me

21:33

that you could have a decision

21:35

to leave the European Union. And

21:38

yet have so little

21:41

ability to execute

21:43

a coherent plan subsequently

21:45

and indians solely the

21:48

big responsibility. For.

21:50

That failure. To. reconfigure

21:53

the united kingdom for world

21:55

outside the u sas to

21:57

rest with our elected politicians

22:00

who argued for it. You can't just go around

22:02

saying, you know, we, I mean, as it happens,

22:04

you were a remainer, you didn't want Brexit, but

22:06

you've now taken it up as something that you

22:08

believe in. But you know,

22:11

the reality is we had a

22:13

prime minister in Boris Johnson, who

22:15

was right at the forefront of

22:17

the Brexit campaign, where was the,

22:19

you know, the coherent programme to

22:21

make a success of Brexit? It just wasn't

22:23

there. You can't blame the civil service for

22:25

this. This was a failure of politicians, of

22:28

political leaders. But I do think the fact

22:30

that so much power has

22:32

been outsourced to unelected

22:35

agencies and bureaucrats makes

22:38

politics a less attractive career. Because

22:41

frankly, why become an MP if

22:44

you can become somebody with power who's

22:46

highly paid, and who's less accountable? Because

22:48

MPs get a hell of a lot

22:50

of abuse and flack, quite often for

22:52

things that aren't our responsibility, but

22:56

I think that this is one

22:58

of the key points I'm making

23:00

that since, particularly since Blair, this

23:02

power has been outsourced to so

23:05

called independent institutions. And it's made

23:07

politics a less attractive arena for

23:09

people to go into. Plus, you've

23:11

had the advent of social media,

23:13

24 hour broadcast,

23:15

which puts increasing pressure on politicians. I

23:18

think that's a problem for Britain, because

23:20

I actually want to see really high

23:22

quality people go into politics. So I

23:24

think one of the things about restoring

23:27

proper democratic accountability in Britain is

23:29

about increasing the talent pool in

23:32

politics. So I agree with you. And

23:34

how much more do we have to pay MPs? I

23:36

think, you know, we could improve

23:38

MPs pay, but I think it's

23:40

about more than that. It's about

23:43

the, you know, the the power

23:45

properly lying with Parliament. It's about

23:47

the responsibility being aligned with the

23:49

power. I think these are very

23:51

important questions we need to address.

23:53

And what my book talks about

23:55

is, you know, I've worked in

23:57

as a minister for 10 years in education.

24:00

justice, the environment, trade, the foreign

24:02

office. And I saw this in

24:04

every single area of government

24:06

I worked in is the frustration

24:09

of not really being able to

24:11

get things done and everything,

24:13

even minor things being a major battle.

24:16

And that shouldn't be the case with

24:18

a government with a clear agenda. Now,

24:20

I think you can fairly critique the

24:22

Conservatives since 2010 for not reversing enough

24:24

of the Blairite reforms, but

24:26

not recognising the changes

24:28

those have wrought and for not recognising that

24:30

a lot of power have been outsourced and

24:33

we should have taken on a... And I

24:35

think Conservatives are increasingly noticing this and noticing

24:37

why it's difficult to deliver things in government.

24:39

But I do think there needs to be

24:41

a different settlement because the

24:43

current system is not working. Now,

24:45

in this podcast, we also

24:48

like to get to know the people

24:50

we're talking to a little bit. So I

24:52

want to take you back just briefly to

24:55

the younger Liz

24:57

Truss, your school, you're a comprehensive in

24:59

Leeds. Did you think then politics was

25:01

going to be your life? I

25:03

didn't know. I was interested in politics.

25:05

I was definitely... I've always been an

25:07

agitator. So I was one of those

25:09

kids that was always arguing with the teachers, putting my

25:12

point of view across, say. Very annoying

25:14

young person. Very annoying. Some

25:17

of my teachers loved me and some of my teachers

25:19

hated me. But at what point

25:21

did it feel to you this was going

25:23

to be your life? I

25:26

don't know. Probably I'd always... Like I was

25:28

involved in student politics. I'd always kind of

25:30

hank it after it. But when

25:33

I went, I think after university, I got

25:35

a job for Shell. So I worked in

25:37

the oil industry. I really enjoyed it. I

25:39

really enjoyed commercial work at work. I love

25:41

doing deals. That's one thing I love. But

25:44

there was always something just a bit

25:47

missing, the sort of purpose. So it

25:49

was the purpose and the ability to

25:51

change things was why I went into

25:53

politics. And you started as a Lib Dem. At

25:55

what point did you discover you weren't a Lib

25:57

Dem? It was, I think, studying... economics

26:01

was the penny drop moment for me.

26:03

Because I always believed in freedom. I always believed

26:05

that people are best making their own

26:07

decisions and the government shouldn't be doing that. Because

26:10

when I studied economics and understood economic

26:12

freedom that I became and I joined

26:15

the Hayek Society at Oxford. What did

26:17

your dad say? Because your dad is not on that

26:19

side of politics. When you joined the Hayek Society, what

26:21

on earth did your dad say to you? I don't

26:23

think he knows about that. He doesn't know about that. He's gone,

26:25

this is the first time he's learned. And

26:31

then, I mean, I want you to sort

26:33

of tell us in the end what your

26:36

sort of overall sort of emotional reflections are

26:38

on your period as prime minister. But if you look

26:40

at your period in government, what was the sort of

26:42

high point and what was the low point? I mean,

26:45

the high point was genuinely the

26:47

day of the mini budget. You know,

26:49

when I thought that we had been

26:52

able to deliver this package that was

26:54

actually going to improve lives in Britain.

26:57

And, you know, for years and years,

26:59

you know, quasi, I've been talking about

27:01

it. Things like, you know, corporation

27:03

tax, planning reform, doing

27:05

all these things and getting frustrated, frankly, that

27:08

it wasn't happening. That the Treasury just seemed

27:10

to keep finding new ways of raising taxes

27:12

and that, you know, regulation was just getting

27:14

more and more stringent. And even

27:16

though we'd left the EU, we hadn't really

27:19

taken advantage of those freedoms. So that

27:21

was the moment for me that I thought,

27:23

yes, you know, this is actually

27:25

moving in the right direction. And the low

27:27

point, presumably, if you're using that at the high

27:29

point, the low point is presumably what the day that

27:32

you stood on sort of outside

27:34

number 10 and had to say goodbye, I assume.

27:36

I mean, I think the low point

27:38

was actually when that week where I

27:40

had to reverse the corporation tax decision,

27:42

because that's what I knew it was,

27:44

you know, the policy was dead.

27:47

That's what I knew it was dead. And

27:49

I mean, this was intense. I

27:52

mean, you know, you had the

27:54

death of the monarch, you

27:56

had this financial crisis, you had

27:58

to Saka's Chancellor, somebody

28:00

you were pretty close to politically

28:03

and as a friend. This

28:07

was a really traumatic

28:09

period, but you faced

28:11

enormous amounts of personal criticism. I've

28:14

said this to you before, your

28:17

resilience is remarkable. Quite

28:19

a lot of people after that would

28:21

have just run away and hidden, but

28:23

that's plainly not in your character, and

28:25

it is quite remarkable. Was

28:27

there ever a moment when you thought about running

28:29

away? Not seriously,

28:31

no. And so where does your strength come

28:33

from? Well, I am motivated

28:35

by wanting things to change,

28:38

and I always knew it

28:41

would be difficult. When I put

28:43

myself forward for the leadership election, I thought it

28:45

was going to be unpleasant. I

28:49

wasn't compelled to do it because

28:51

I wanted the job as Prime Minister. I felt

28:54

this is what I was in politics to do. So

28:57

I just have a very strong sense of purpose, I

28:59

guess, is the way I would put it. Come

29:01

on, it's more than purpose. There

29:06

is something that you

29:08

either got from your parents or is genetic.

29:11

There is something else there. What

29:13

is it? It's hard to

29:15

analyse yourself, isn't it?

29:17

Because I just

29:20

think, from now, what

29:22

have I learnt from my time in number

29:25

10 and my time as a minister, and how

29:27

can I use that knowledge to

29:29

help other conservatives and advance the

29:32

causes we believe in? So

29:34

what's the future for Liz Trust then? I

29:36

think, first of all, conservatives need to understand

29:38

that we haven't been winning the arguments. And

29:41

this is not just true in Britain, it's true in the

29:44

United States, it's true across the free world,

29:46

that things have moved to the left, that

29:48

the establishment has moved to the

29:50

left. So whereas people were monetarists,

29:52

they're now Keynesians. Whereas

29:55

people believed in a free market economy,

29:57

there's now more calls for government into

30:00

So, and you know, in the

30:02

social space, we've had gender ideology,

30:04

anti-colonialism, all of these ologies have

30:06

sort of gone up the agenda

30:09

and political salience. So, you know,

30:11

I want to learn from

30:14

what's happened to make the

30:16

conservative case. And what

30:18

I fundamentally believe that requires is changing

30:20

our institutions. That's the biggest thing I've

30:23

learned is just how powerful they are.

30:25

And what about changing the conservative party?

30:28

Though you are a very broad coalition.

30:31

It's proved very difficult in recent times

30:34

to hold that coalition together. If

30:37

you lose the election, and that's what the

30:39

polls say, presumably, you're going to

30:42

be leading a battle for

30:44

the identity of your party, aren't you? Well,

30:46

I think that there is

30:49

a live discussion about what

30:51

the conservative party should do. And there

30:53

are some people in the conservative party

30:55

who say we should accept that, you

30:58

know, the institutions have moved to the

31:00

left, that we are living in a

31:02

big government country, and that's just the

31:04

way things are. I think also the

31:06

conservatives electoral coalition has changed. So I

31:09

think the red wall is a permanent

31:11

fiction of what it is to be

31:13

a conservative. So yes, there

31:15

are some very big debates going on about the future

31:17

of the party. And I want to be a part of

31:19

that. I mean, it's a coalition. Do you think in

31:21

order for the conservative

31:24

party to rebuild, it's

31:26

frankly got to split first? I just

31:28

think we need to be adhering to core

31:30

conservative principles, you know, beliefs in

31:33

freedom, free markets and free enterprise,

31:36

a sovereign nation state. These are

31:38

core conservative beliefs. But you know,

31:40

I'm very strongly objected to smoking

31:42

legislation, for example, banning adults from

31:44

smoking. I think that's not

31:46

conservative. So yes, we are having

31:48

these very live debates in the

31:50

party about what being a conservative

31:52

is. And for Liz Truss

31:55

personally, you're going to fight the next election.

31:57

Yes. Could you envisage

31:59

ever to... doing anything else other than being

32:01

an MP? I'm

32:04

not ruling anything out. I'm not

32:06

ruling anything out. Would you fancy doing anything else? I

32:08

just want to know, apart from being an MP. I

32:10

love being an MP. I think

32:12

politics is where it's at, and

32:15

I want people in

32:17

Britain to be more involved in politics, to

32:20

care more about politics. I want to see

32:22

more people want to run for office. I

32:24

think we need big changes

32:26

in this country, and the only

32:29

place that can ultimately come from the

32:31

only people who can change the law

32:33

are MPs. David Cameron suffered

32:36

the humiliation of losing the Brexit vote. He's

32:38

back as Foreign Secretary. Could you see yourself

32:40

back in government one day, personally? I'm

32:43

not hankering after that. I

32:46

want conservative leadership in the world

32:48

again. It's very important to

32:50

me what happens in the United States. I

32:52

think that's absolutely crucial. Some people

32:54

would say that your admiration for Trump

32:56

is just weird, because so many of

32:58

his values are not yours. You

33:01

believe in democracy. It's not obvious that he believes

33:03

in democracy. Well, he does believe in democracy.

33:06

I think January the 6th is really quite a big counter argument.

33:09

I'm very clear that Biden won the 2020 election. He

33:12

is not clear about it. Let's be clear.

33:14

I'm not saying I agree with

33:17

every single Trump statement, but what

33:19

I do think is that America

33:21

needs serious change. And

33:23

you think that the kind of

33:25

change that Trump would push is

33:27

the kind of change that would

33:29

be good for this country? Well,

33:32

if you look at what

33:34

he did, cutting taxes, cutting

33:36

regulations, very pro free market,

33:41

it's exactly the kind of thing we need here. Fracking

33:44

supporting cheap energy.

33:46

Right. Okay. Let's

33:49

trust the Trumpian. I thought

33:51

you were going to get all from fracking again, Robert.

33:53

No, no, no, no, we've had that conversation. We've had

33:55

that disagree. But so look, as

33:57

ever, great to see you. and

34:00

I'm sure we'll be talking again at length

34:03

before too long. This is Charles, thank you very much. Very

34:05

good, good to see you. So that's

34:07

it for now. See you soon. Bye

34:09

bye.