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0:41

Welcome to The Rest is Money with me, Steph McGovern.

0:43

And with me, Robert Peston. So today on

0:46

the podcast, we are joined by the

0:48

brilliant British chef, Tom Kehrig. Now,

0:50

Tom has talked about struggling at

0:53

school before he began his journey

0:55

in the kitchens. He worked in

0:57

various restaurants before rising to

0:59

prominence with his Michelin-starred pub, The Hand

1:01

and Flowers in Marlowe. He's known, isn't

1:03

he, for his kind of straightforward but

1:05

innovative take on British cuisine. And of

1:07

course, he's not just in the kitchens,

1:09

he's also on telly quite a bit

1:11

as well. And he's done a lot,

1:13

which I'm particularly interested in, around trying

1:16

to help young people be fed properly. He's done

1:18

work on free school meals and things like that.

1:20

So he's a really interesting guy. Yeah,

1:22

no, he's got a hugely important sort

1:24

of political life, not in a party-building

1:26

sense, but just as a campaigner on

1:29

issues like poverty. He was also something

1:31

of a critic of the impact on

1:33

Brexit, of Brexit, on the ability to

1:35

hire the kind of people that he

1:38

needs and hospitality needs to

1:40

thrive. We talked to

1:43

him about how panoply of

1:45

really gripping subjects, challenges

1:47

of the hospitality industry, particularly

1:49

after the COVID pandemic, what

1:52

it is about him that means

1:54

he's this massive risk taker and

1:56

has taken really significant risks to

1:58

build this. very

2:00

successful. He's got

2:02

a media business as well

2:04

as a restaurant business. He

2:07

struggles with alcohol addiction. I

2:09

mean, he's a gripping man and

2:11

I love talking to him. Right, let's

2:13

hear what he has to say. Here's our interview with Tom Kerridge.

2:17

Tom, thanks very much for joining us. First of all, I

2:19

can't believe you haven't brought any food. No,

2:22

it was an early start. I left

2:24

before the kitchens were open, sorry. We'll

2:27

have to find the kitchen here, won't we? We'll

2:29

be as good on telling you now. Tom, it's

2:31

really interesting what's going on in the

2:34

world with restaurants. It's been a

2:36

tough time, hasn't it, for the hospitality sector and you've

2:39

had to work your way through all that. Yeah,

2:41

it's been a really difficult period. I

2:43

think everybody and every business, and I'm

2:45

sure you've talked to many people who

2:47

say from pandemic, post pandemic

2:49

and the way that you've worked through it,

2:51

it's been incredibly hard. And then I

2:53

think, moving on from that, the fact that

2:55

there's a cost of

2:58

living crisis and global effects of

3:01

Russia and Ukraine and how that

3:03

affects not just energy prices and

3:05

food. There is such a huge,

3:08

so many different influences that are pulling

3:10

and pushing on businesses across the board,

3:12

but hospitality always seems to

3:14

be right in the middle of it because

3:17

it's connected by human beings. It operates as

3:20

human physical touch to make it

3:22

work. It's humans that come in

3:24

to enjoy it. And by

3:26

hospitality, I don't just mean like mission-side restaurants,

3:28

it's coffee shops and it's cinemas and it's

3:31

the kiosk at the football. They're

3:33

all hospitality and they're all intertwined.

3:35

But then into that, you have

3:37

a huge amount of other businesses

3:39

that support it or are part

3:41

of it, or hospitality supports those

3:43

businesses. So manufacturing, kitchen design, building,

3:45

logistics, and then you've got food,

3:47

farming, agriculture. There's so many different

3:50

things that drop into hospitality that

3:52

feels that it sits in the

3:54

core of that and all of

3:56

those costs weigh heavy

3:58

into it. And then The

4:00

only way that hospitality makes any money is

4:02

by selling stuff to human beings who are

4:04

running out of money. So it's a really

4:06

difficult business to be in right now. And

4:09

if you look at your business and

4:12

how it feels at the moment, you've got sort

4:14

of super top end, but you've also got

4:16

other price points. How are they performing?

4:19

Is there a general trend or is one

4:21

area doing that? It's quite interesting. You can

4:23

read through it. We've gone from

4:26

having a big event company and

4:28

a two mission star space and

4:30

pubs that do burgers and steaks.

4:32

And we've got a lovely, beautiful

4:34

Bistro style London dining room in

4:36

a five star hotel. And so

4:38

we've got fingers across the board

4:40

of understanding what's happening everywhere. And

4:42

the big event company we've had

4:44

to we've closed just before Christmas. It's

4:47

been operating for about five or six

4:49

years. Pandemic. No, there's

4:51

no events going on. There's nothing. So we

4:53

end up we've closed that with no debt.

4:55

But the energy levels that it takes to

4:58

make that work is so huge. You go,

5:00

right, OK, this is taking so much of

5:02

our time. It's not working. There's not enough

5:04

and there's not enough future business I don't

5:06

see coming through. Summers are quite strong.

5:08

You make money in the summer. But if you've already made

5:10

a loss in the first three, four months before you chase

5:12

your tail, by the time you get to the end of

5:14

the year, it's done. And so you just go, OK, so

5:17

let's concentrate on different things. I'm working on

5:19

different businesses. And then the top end space, the two

5:21

star place, the hand of flowers is established. It's been

5:23

there 19 years. It

5:25

has a very weighty, punchy price

5:27

point that covers costs and operates

5:29

just about a profit with investment

5:31

in buildings and properties for people

5:33

to stay at. There's a huge

5:35

amount of people that work in

5:37

it. But because it's got that

5:39

reputation, that's still strong. The bookings

5:41

are still strong. People are still

5:43

spending their money. At the top end people,

5:46

as you can see, at the top end,

5:48

people still got money. They still want the

5:50

luxurious experience. They do. Celebrations. Everyone's got a

5:52

wedding anniversary or a birthday every year. You

5:54

know, so and they're celebrating spending the money

5:56

in that space. The middle and the lower

5:58

ground is where it's very, very different. because

6:01

it's a huge market space. There's a lot

6:03

of people out there that are competing for

6:05

it. The price point isn't

6:08

cheap. Even if you're going to a high street pizza

6:10

place, a family of four will still

6:12

spend 100 quid on a Tuesday night,

6:14

and that's a lot of money. So

6:17

that price point is quite difficult to start

6:19

attacking, and you can't put any offers in

6:21

because the costs... When you've got a low

6:23

price point, you have to have volume. But

6:25

if the volume isn't there because everybody's fighting

6:27

for that market space, that's the one that

6:29

we're finding and struggling with. That's the

6:31

one that's most difficult right now. Are

6:34

you worried about it? I've got to

6:36

be honest. I'm in quite a fortunate

6:38

position in terms of I personally, I'm

6:40

okay. I've worked very hard in this

6:42

industry, and I've made money in different

6:45

aspects, all from food. If I was

6:47

solely just about my hospitality business operating,

6:49

one of them, can it make money?

6:51

I would be terrified. Yeah, absolutely. I've

6:53

got my fingers in lots of pies.

6:56

I can move as a business, as

6:58

an entrepreneur with books and media projects

7:00

and other things that are going on. But

7:02

if I was solely a sole operator of

7:04

one single restaurant, yeah, I would be absolutely

7:06

terrified. It's very, very scary right now. And

7:08

if you had to choose just

7:11

one or two factors that are making

7:13

it so difficult, what would they be?

7:15

So it is the huge amount of

7:17

rising costs that are coming in behind

7:20

the scenes. Even now. Even

7:22

now. And there is no singular point

7:24

where you can maneuver. It used to

7:26

be like the cost of veg oil

7:28

has gone up. So you change what

7:30

you cook with, or the cost of

7:32

a particular type of meat or produce is

7:34

coming, you can change that. Or cleaning products

7:37

has gone up, but you can try and

7:39

make the margins everywhere. But it's everything, because

7:41

it's everybody's business, the guys that produce and

7:43

supply the cleaning products, the fish guy, the

7:45

butcher, the veg guy, the farmers, every product

7:47

price, everything that comes into your business has

7:49

gone up. But we cannot put those prices,

7:51

everyone's holding off as long as they can,

7:53

putting prices on to the guests, to the

7:55

customer that comes through the door. Because the

7:58

customer has also got less money. months

8:00

people are having to renew their mortgages, mortgage rates have

8:02

gone up. So every month you've got more and more

8:04

people that are having to spend more money on mortgage,

8:06

their disposable income has been eating away whilst their bills

8:08

have gone up, your utility bills are going up. So

8:11

during the period of intense rises

8:13

in prices, you squeezed your profit

8:15

margin and you haven't rebuilt

8:18

it yet. No, exactly. I think most operators,

8:20

every operator will be going, I think if

8:22

we can make the next two years and

8:24

we just break even and survive, we're in

8:26

a good space. It's really interesting

8:28

because it's kind of like everyone's dream

8:30

to run a restaurant or a pub,

8:32

isn't it? There's so many people who

8:34

go, oh, I'd love to retire and

8:36

have a nice restaurant or

8:39

cafe or pub or B&B.

8:41

Yeah. And that's a really lovely idea when

8:43

you think about it as, because

8:45

you host dinner parties and you do them really

8:48

well and you like being a social animal and

8:50

you can cook for them. But the cooking is

8:53

the easy bit. The running of the business

8:55

is the same as any other business. The

8:58

understanding of the margins, the understand generosity

9:01

in hospitality is a thing that makes

9:03

great operators operate and do very, very

9:05

well. And that's the thing that brings

9:07

guests back. But actually the understanding, the

9:09

kind of the macros of running a

9:11

business like that is very, very difficult.

9:14

And the profit margins, no matter how

9:16

busy you see your local pub on

9:18

a weekend or even

9:20

a top end restaurant packed, the

9:23

actual margins are very, very small. So

9:25

unless you understand the business, unless you've

9:27

got years of understanding that particular type

9:30

of business, it's very, very difficult to

9:32

make them work. I love the way

9:34

you say that the cooking is the

9:36

easy bit. That would terrify me. Well,

9:40

I was also just going to ask about the pressures

9:43

of the kitchen itself. My sister was a chef for

9:46

many years and I just remember the sort

9:48

of relentless toll that it took. I mean,

9:50

Julia, which in a whole range of sort

9:53

of what would be regarded as sort of

9:55

high end, she owned and ran a couple

9:57

of them, but she'd be up at four.

10:00

in the morning ordering stuff, she'd be

10:02

working with people who seem to get

10:04

incredibly emotional in the heat of the

10:06

kitchen, more or

10:08

less every day. And therefore, it wasn't just

10:10

the physical toll, it was, and then the

10:12

heat, because the heat's real. As

10:14

I say, the emotional toll, I

10:17

don't think people quite understand how

10:19

pressurised, particularly, you know, running a

10:21

kitchen is. Yeah, I mean, running

10:23

a hospitality industry and our hospitality

10:25

business is pressurising, it is

10:27

very difficult. There are unique individuals that

10:30

are attracted to hospitality. It has a way

10:32

of attracting waists and strays, and not necessarily

10:34

people who conform to society, people who are,

10:36

you know, that don't necessarily have done very

10:38

well at school, but actually are really bright

10:40

and intelligent and just working and operating at

10:42

a different level and a different way. The

10:44

best way I always describe it is our kitchen is like a pirate

10:47

ship, it's like a bunch of pirates that

10:49

are in there. But you're controlling this pirate

10:51

ship and you're making it work and you're

10:53

operating in a really amazing way. It is

10:56

one of the most beautiful things about hospitality,

10:58

it's the most eclectic, diverse, culturally rich, fantastic

11:00

kind of spaces to be. And why do

11:02

you think, just on that, I don't know

11:04

actually whether you're one of these, you know,

11:06

shouty men, but we do seem to see

11:08

a lot of shouty men becoming

11:11

sort of restaurant entrepreneurs and running kitchens and the rest of

11:13

it. Yeah, why so? Well, I think that's a part that

11:15

media picks up on that makes it look like it's really

11:17

exciting or all of this is going on. But you talked

11:20

about your sister there, she might have been in the business

11:22

for 16 hours, 18 hours in a day. But no one

11:26

shouted for 18 hours of a day. I

11:28

don't know. I don't think she was. I

11:30

think she used to feedback, essentially, having

11:32

a deal, particularly when she was younger,

11:35

with in the old days, you

11:37

know, the way that some chefs behaved would

11:39

now be deemed as almost illegal as it

11:42

were. No, absolutely. The sort of bullying that

11:44

went on the rest of it. No, I

11:46

completely agree. But the way that I think

11:48

the best way of describing how kitchens and

11:50

spaces that operate are it's in

11:52

a world that's driven with pressure. There's two deadlines every

11:54

day, there's lunch and dinner, and you have to be

11:57

ready for it. And then you're waiting to be ready

11:59

for it. for the veg guy to

12:01

turn up and if he's stuck in traffic and

12:03

that puts pressure on, you're already, you know, and

12:05

then there's a level of expectation from a customer

12:07

that's coming in. You've already, you've maybe have achieved

12:09

some form of accolade that a customer is expecting

12:11

to reach that level, but if your fish hasn't

12:13

turned up and it's 10 to 12, and then

12:16

when it comes to service, you've got one chance

12:18

of getting it right. And the best way I

12:20

can explain it is a little bit like professional

12:22

sportsmen. So when they're on a pitch, when they're

12:24

running around, when there's the England rugby team or

12:26

when England playing football or whatever, and they

12:29

want the ball there and then. They don't

12:31

ask for things politely. Pass it now, quick,

12:33

get that moving. Because

12:36

you're in that kind of exciting

12:38

adrenaline fueled position. And then

12:40

afterwards, everyone's mates, it's all good. And

12:42

if it all goes wrong, you have a debrief

12:45

of what went wrong, and how did you build

12:47

it and how did you make it right? It's

12:49

that kind of team circulation. Sometimes we've got ourselves

12:51

into a world where behaving or talking like that

12:54

in an adrenaline fueled, exciting environment is all seen

12:56

as something that people don't want to be. And

12:58

that's fine. But actually, what attracts people to

13:00

that industry is that kind of sense of

13:02

energy, that hard work ethic, that achievement, that

13:04

connection. And that's what makes it an amazing

13:07

space to be. Yeah. So then tell

13:09

us your story of how you got into

13:11

it. Yeah, I needed money. I was 18 years

13:14

old, I walked into a kitchen and you were

13:16

pretty shit at school, apparently. Yeah, I wasn't great.

13:18

I gotta be honest. I wasn't. And I rephrase

13:20

that I hate it when people do that. The

13:22

education system didn't work for you. It didn't teach

13:25

you the way it should have. No, it's

13:27

not about him being shit. It's about

13:29

the education system. I had a say

13:31

Tom was shit. You said shit, too.

13:33

I was just, we all have different

13:36

skills. Yeah. And you know, the skills

13:38

that you were required at school weren't

13:40

necessarily yours. No, I'm not blaming you.

13:42

No, you know what? It's funny. I

13:44

look back at school and I didn't

13:46

hate school. I actually really enjoyed school.

13:48

I enjoyed hanging with my mates. The

13:50

idea, particularly all those years ago, of

13:53

being given some stuff, watching a

13:55

video or a book, learning it and just

13:58

repeating it. And that makes you clever. was

14:00

not, wasn't in my world.

14:02

I was like, I wanted to go out and do

14:04

stuff. I wanted to be, I was never scared of

14:06

a work ethic. I wasn't sure what it was I

14:08

was going to do. I hear that we silo

14:10

people as either the being clever or thick

14:12

based on whether they can get through

14:15

pure academic sense. So that's, yeah. I mean,

14:17

we see it now with the world of

14:19

politicians, don't we? How many of them have

14:21

got amazing backgrounds from universities, whatever else, but

14:23

actually their life experience is ridiculous. You could

14:25

just say they're useless. That's fine. Yeah,

14:28

you can say. Exactly. But you just go to

14:30

the point, so school wasn't necessarily 100% the right,

14:33

it wasn't for me in terms of getting a

14:35

tick box mark and moving away from it. But

14:37

you know, I came from school having enjoyed it,

14:39

but it just wasn't the right space. I was

14:42

attracted to the naughty boys. I liked hanging around

14:44

with the chaos and the fun and the whatever else. And

14:46

then when I went into a

14:48

kitchen as an 18 year old, it felt exactly

14:50

the same. I went there to wash up, but

14:52

there was this left field world of life, late

14:54

at night, early mornings, fire, knives,

14:56

kind of banter, language. It was

14:59

all just like, wow, this is

15:01

pretty cool. This is a great

15:03

space to be. And that's always

15:05

been sort of creative. Because the

15:07

thing about our chef is, it's

15:10

a really creative thing, putting ingredients together. It's also

15:12

partly about the way it looks as well, the

15:14

way it tastes. When you were

15:16

a kid, you look back and think, yeah,

15:18

I had those sort of craft skills. I

15:20

think you've picked on something that I think

15:23

I view as a media led thing of

15:25

going cooking is creative

15:27

and it's exciting. It's a trade.

15:29

So I went in there and

15:31

it's the repetitive graft of hard

15:33

work of again and again, learning

15:36

how to pick three boxes of

15:38

spinach as quick as you can,

15:40

turn artichokes, prep, beef, lamb, all

15:43

of those skill sets. For

15:45

me, it was always about building blocks of

15:47

a trade. So I could have

15:49

been on a building site. I could have

15:51

been working as a fisherman.

15:55

There's the certain points that I learnt. So

15:57

do you hate that sort of idea? of

16:00

the great French chef who's this

16:03

creative genius. Does that annoy

16:05

you? No, no, not at all. And there are

16:08

chefs that operate like that, but even though chefs

16:10

that are creative geniuses have learned

16:12

through a trade, they learn the understanding of the

16:14

building blocks of flavor, of spices,

16:16

salt, acidity, of sour, of sweet,

16:19

of crunch, of texture, and

16:21

how do I build that? And then- But that would be

16:23

J.F. Picasso as well as an artist. You have to learn,

16:25

I mean, your wife is an artist. You'd have to know,

16:27

in a sense, you have to get the building blocks, the

16:29

basic stuff before you can do the creative stuff. You

16:31

have to get the academic, yeah. But then I

16:33

still cook through the thought

16:36

of the academic block of understanding where's

16:38

the texture coming from, where's the acidity,

16:40

where's the wholesome soul of the representation,

16:43

and that's really, really important. And also

16:45

from a business point of view, will

16:48

it sell? Like, it's all well and good creating

16:50

something that you think is absolutely magic, but there's

16:52

no point in putting on if no one buys

16:54

it. You go, actually, will it sell? Will customers

16:56

come through the door and want to eat that?

16:58

You have to build that into your menu modeling.

17:00

And is that something that you

17:02

just have to learn through trial and

17:04

error, or is it instinctive? No, I

17:06

think it's a mixture of the two, but

17:09

nothing, nothing can be given to

17:12

you without experience. The only way you learn it,

17:14

like everything that you do- So what have you

17:16

served that was terrible, even though you

17:18

thought it was amazing, that people just wouldn't buy?

17:20

I used to be quite chefy-based in terms of

17:22

that I'd want different types of offal on, or

17:24

I would put things with frog's eggs on, or

17:26

I would put things, because I would think that

17:28

there was being quite clever and slightly alternative and

17:30

quietly. And actually now, if I look at the

17:32

hand and flowers menu, we have a

17:35

chicken pie on a menu. Like it's done, like

17:37

it's the best pie you can ever get, but

17:39

it's a chicken pie. Oh, I know. And it's

17:41

in the stars. Exactly. It's like, there's no frog's

17:43

eggs in sight, you know? And I get it,

17:45

because there's nothing to do with me. Frog's eggs,

17:47

I get, you know, my best friend has just

17:49

opened a restaurant called Josephine in on the Fulham

17:51

Road, and he's all based on Lien-Aise cuisine. He's

17:53

from France. He's friends. That's absolutely fine. I'll

17:56

have a chicken pie and pork scratchings on a sausage

17:58

roll. That's where I'm from. That

18:00

is where I am as well. So coming

18:02

back to you then and how you got

18:04

into this business. So you were clearly working

18:07

in the kitchens and loving it. How did

18:09

that manifest into you having your own restaurants?

18:11

Yeah, it's kind of a long old journey. And

18:14

it comes from a single parent

18:16

background. I grew up, myself and my brother and

18:18

my mum, she had two jobs. She worked

18:20

as a secretary for the council and then worked in a pub

18:22

washing up in the evenings. And that world

18:24

of food wasn't really one that I thought I'd

18:26

be in. I was a latchkey kid that called

18:29

them in those days. And I'd come home and

18:31

cook tea for my brother. But that would be

18:33

like fish finger sandwiches or fingers, crispy pancakes. And

18:35

you just go, how do we build that forward?

18:37

How do I, it wasn't really anything that I

18:39

thought I'd ever own my own business. So

18:42

working then as a chef, even to the

18:44

point where I was working for somebody else

18:46

and won my first mission as star, but

18:48

it was somebody else's restaurant, I never ever

18:50

thought of having my own place. And that

18:52

came from being with my wife Beth, who

18:54

has always been pretty much self employed. She

18:56

worked with and for an artist for a

18:58

while for a long time.

19:00

But she's always been her own person.

19:02

And her father, my father-in-law, has always

19:04

been his own boss. You're in control

19:07

of your destiny. So then it

19:09

came to the point of going, right, well, maybe, you

19:11

know, I should get another job at a

19:13

different head, chest position. How old are you then? I

19:15

was, well, we opened the hand of flowers when I

19:17

was 31. Beth said, you know, she went, look,

19:19

if you're going to go and do 80,

19:21

90, 100 hour weeks for somebody else, I mean,

19:23

we may as well just do it for ourselves,

19:25

aren't we? So how did you raise the money?

19:28

Because we lied and we blagged it. So we

19:30

had a small little cottage

19:32

that we said to the bank

19:34

we were going to do an extension. So

19:37

we took the money for the extension. You

19:39

literally lied. Absolutely. 100% literally

19:42

lied. We blagged two credit cards,

19:44

maxed them out. And we

19:46

took on the tenancy, not even a leasehold, the tenancy

19:49

of the hand of flowers. It's owned by Green King,

19:51

where you have to you buy all the fixtures

19:53

and fittings and you can turn you operate the

19:56

pub. And if it makes a profit, it's yours,

19:58

you have to pay them the most. you

20:00

are a tenant, any profit that's made is yours. It's not

20:02

a managed house, but you also don't own the lease. So

20:04

we thought this would be a really good way of getting

20:06

in. It costs about 50 grand ish,

20:10

maybe a bit more to get in. So we

20:12

absolutely blagged and lied and got away to 50

20:14

grand. And just to be clear, if it had

20:16

gone wrong, you would have gone bankrupt. Oh

20:19

yeah, I lost seven. But did

20:22

you know that you're that kind

20:24

of risk taker, that you've got that appetite

20:26

for risk before you did this? It's funny,

20:28

because I still think about it today.

20:31

And we still risk everything

20:33

today. And I think a lot of the

20:35

thrill from that there's a thrill, there's a

20:37

fear. There's also a recognition

20:39

that I also don't care enough. But I care

20:42

loads. I've come from nothing. Like I had no

20:44

I was always a kid with the worst trainers

20:46

at school. I was always I didn't have all

20:48

the nice stuff I didn't I grew up with

20:50

nothing. So when you eventually get to having some,

20:52

I'm not desperate to cling on to it. I

20:54

like nice things. But I'm not necessarily materialistic. I

20:56

live in a nice house. I have a nice

20:58

car. I've got all of it. But actually, if

21:01

it all went wrong, actually, I enjoy

21:03

living a life. I'd rather spend everything

21:05

you make. Yeah, on experience and stuff

21:07

and things and reinvestment. And, you know,

21:10

I've got an eight year old son.

21:12

And actually, what we do is we

21:14

invest in stuff that actually because I

21:16

came from his life is so

21:18

the same thing. And you go, actually, I

21:20

want to build something a legacy that he

21:22

should be all right. And then hopefully his

21:25

kids will be all right. And you just

21:27

go actually, that to me is more important

21:29

than having and spending loads of money and

21:31

doing stuff. This is times you've had times where

21:33

there's, you know, you've made mistakes, I guess as well.

21:35

And it sounds like you're the type of person who

21:38

deal with that. All right. Because like, for example, you

21:40

had a bar that was down the road from the

21:42

flowers, didn't you? That didn't do very well. What did

21:44

you kind of take from that? What went wrong? And

21:46

what did you take from it? So that came

21:48

from we opened a space down the road,

21:51

we opened up with business partners. That

21:53

was a learning hard learning curve, because we

21:55

made the same mistake twice that you open

21:57

with business partners that don't have the same

21:59

workout. and all of a sudden you're

22:01

the ones that are dragging everything through and it's

22:03

built on your name and your reputation and then

22:05

the work ethic isn't exactly the same. You go,

22:07

and so we did it. So we removed ourselves

22:09

slowly out of the business, stood back

22:11

a bit and then obviously because they didn't have the

22:14

same work ethic, the business collapses and you kind of

22:16

go, right, okay. So that was one learning curve. We

22:18

won't go into business with business partners again and then

22:20

we did. And

22:23

we opened it. Was it better second time round? It

22:25

was much better the second time round because the business

22:27

partner had a work ethic and they were very busy

22:30

and worked very, very hard. But we kind of,

22:32

which is the butcher's tip and grill that we

22:34

opened with a butcher. And

22:36

his work ethic was very strong. He

22:38

was in very early and worked there

22:40

very, very late. But we decided that

22:42

we needed to move that business slightly

22:45

on post pandemic, that we wanted to

22:47

be all about what we know, operational

22:49

burgers, steaks, cooking, hospitality and he wanted

22:51

to operate as a butcher. So he

22:53

has a butcher a hundred

22:55

meters down the road and we have the

22:57

finish up. So we've separated, but

22:59

that wasn't a bad, that was an amicable, sometimes

23:02

it's a good thing. Also I have a partnership

23:04

with Gary Neville. I worked with Gary Neville. We

23:08

opened a restaurant in Manchester. And- Is

23:10

that 50-50? Yeah, it was slightly different the

23:12

way that this structure, we had a restaurant in

23:14

Gary's hotel. And it came to the point where

23:16

actually the restaurant couldn't operate to the same levels

23:19

that the hotel wanted to operate. And

23:21

you've learned from that. So is that

23:23

unbound as well now? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

23:25

yeah, yeah. That came down just post

23:27

pandemic. Manchester was very,

23:29

very difficult post pandemic. It was the hardest hit

23:31

area. It was very- It was quite saturated with restaurants

23:34

as well. Cause when I was living there, it felt

23:36

like there was a new restaurant opening every week. Yeah,

23:38

but it's got an amazing food scene. It's brilliant. It's

23:40

really exciting. We were so proud and pleased to be

23:42

a part of it. But the way that the hotel

23:45

and the restaurant works and operated together moved

23:47

because businesses move and adapts. The big thing I

23:49

did learn from that first thing is trying to

23:52

keep those relations. So I'm still in contact with

23:54

friends with Gary and still understand

23:56

what the butcher is doing. And you just have to

23:58

learn to move about. People are- still very

24:00

important. And just on, because obviously this is

24:02

very important to anybody who's thinking about creating

24:04

a business or in a business, so is

24:06

your broad approach as far as

24:08

possible to own the thing more or less

24:11

100% and then borrow what you need as

24:13

a buyer? Yeah, I think both my best

24:15

viewpoint is that we try to expand, the

24:17

Hand of Flowers is still owned the property,

24:19

the building is still owned by Green King

24:21

the brewery and we have a very good

24:24

relationship. We've been there over 19 years and

24:26

it's about building those. But

24:29

in terms of sort of, you've never as

24:31

far as I can see really had passive

24:33

investors in your business. No, we have none

24:35

really. We work and operate with banks and

24:37

I don't mind working. Banks are very

24:39

painful. They go through tick box processes.

24:41

Your bank manager is always some, they

24:45

don't run a business, they operate their business,

24:47

they don't understand yours but they'll give

24:49

you some form of a, which is

24:51

almost meaningless because they don't know how

24:53

to make it work because they're

24:55

not running a business but we operate with them

24:57

because they're faceless almost. So you can take money

24:59

as long as you're paying it back every month.

25:01

There's no, you haven't got somebody turning up and

25:03

demanding a table on a Saturday night at eight

25:05

o'clock. But it's interesting to me because

25:08

you do a lot of media, a lot of television,

25:10

you've got a personal brand and

25:12

quite a lot of people in your position, what they're

25:14

trying to do when they create,

25:16

whether you call it hospitality or restaurants

25:19

or whatever, is they try and create

25:22

a business that leverages,

25:24

that makes use, exploits that name

25:26

brand, Tom Carridge, with

25:28

a view at some point to

25:30

either bringing in outside investors, say

25:32

sometimes historically, businesses like

25:34

yours have floated on the stock exchange or

25:37

gone to private equity and got a chunk

25:39

of money and all with a view to

25:41

finding a route out at some point that

25:43

at some point, Tom Carridge himself goes but

25:45

Tom Carridge restaurants has now got such a

25:47

sort of national reputation that it can survive

25:50

without you. Doesn't sound as though you've

25:52

got a plan like that. No, to

25:55

be honest, I love hospitality. It's my

25:57

world. And I work very hard at

25:59

keeping keeping Tom Carridge, me, that sat

26:01

here talking to you as a media face

26:03

and what I do in terms of television

26:06

and the books and the bits and bobs

26:08

that I do and commercial association and the

26:10

work that I do with like Marks and

26:12

Spencer and the adverts and all of that

26:15

as one person. But then the businesses, the

26:17

hospitality businesses, is the profession. I've been a

26:19

chef for 32 years and I'm never ever

26:21

going to demean the work that that energy

26:24

has gone into as a professional because there's

26:26

also 250 professionals that work

26:28

in that and I don't suddenly make

26:30

that about something nice that sits in

26:32

the media. So I work very hard

26:34

personally at keeping those two things very,

26:36

very separate. Is that why you've never

26:38

opened a chain of restaurants as well then?

26:41

Yeah, that is pretty much. We've opened

26:43

a second site of the Butcher's

26:45

Tap and Grill. So we've opened that budget because

26:47

it is one that works commercially nicely in

26:50

Marlowe and it is Steaks' Burger served on

26:52

a metal tray, the screen's on for the

26:54

telly and the sport and it's a proper

26:56

pub and a boozer. So we've opened a

26:58

second version of that in West London and

27:00

to see how that rolls. But it's not

27:02

something necessarily that you could go. That might

27:05

be a brand that could work. The fish

27:07

and chips that we've got in Harrods is

27:09

something that might work, but

27:11

not really commercially. But

27:14

don't people come up to you, don't investors ever

27:16

come to you and say, look, we love the

27:18

concept, why don't we roll it out nationally? That

27:20

must happen. We've had those conversations, but I'm never

27:22

really that interested. Restaurants are always very, very personal.

27:25

They're successful. Most businesses are

27:27

successful because there's a personal touch, there's

27:29

a sense of feeling that the ownership

27:31

really do care about what goes on

27:33

here. And that's really important to me.

27:36

And also, as well as caring about

27:38

that, you also really care about the

27:40

next generation and how they're eating, don't

27:42

you? Because we first met when you

27:44

were doing stuff around free school meals,

27:46

working with the Food Foundation and you

27:49

mentioned yourself about the kind of upbringing you

27:51

had and you were on free school

27:53

meals, weren't you? Yeah, I think it's

27:56

very, very important for that education system

27:58

has adapted and moved. But the

28:00

way that my learning is very different to the

28:02

way that kids learning is now, and free school

28:04

meals or school meals, again, is very, very different.

28:07

If I look back at the time that I

28:09

was eating school meals, like they were so poor,

28:11

they were really bad. And now you look at

28:13

them and actually they're really good. The schools that

28:15

I visited, the options are really

28:17

lovely. The way that they're presented, there's always

28:20

high energy and it's exciting to be a

28:22

part of. But there is a

28:24

big problem that we have in terms of food,

28:26

food poverty that sits in this

28:28

country that's absolutely terrifying. And

28:31

then you look at the means testing

28:33

that we go through. For me, there's

28:35

800,000 kids whose parents qualify for universal

28:38

credit. But these kids don't qualify for

28:40

a free school meal. And

28:42

that to me is just absolutely ludicrous and

28:44

ridiculous. And you look at that and you

28:46

go, well, no, we've already means tested people.

28:49

We already know that they are from a

28:51

vulnerable area, economically challenged what's happening here. These

28:54

kids, they need to be sorted out. We

28:57

need to provide them with a school meal

28:59

because the meals that they'll be getting

29:01

sent with will be nutritionally unbalanced. They will

29:04

be ultra-processed food. They will be something that

29:06

parents can just about afford to buy for

29:08

them, if anything at all.

29:10

Sometimes, these kids are going to school not having

29:12

anything to eat. They're skipping breakfast and not having

29:14

anything there. And you go, well, actually, there's so

29:16

much more that's beneficial for

29:19

the education system because we

29:21

all know that nutritionally unbalanced food, we all

29:23

know that malnutrition, we all know concentration levels,

29:25

they don't work. So, if you've got kids

29:27

that aren't nourished, troublemaking,

29:31

causing disruptions in classes, actually, we make sure

29:33

that they all get something to eat. We'll

29:36

make teachers' lives a lot easier. The education for

29:38

everybody in that class. And then the economy. And

29:40

just to get political for a second, I mean,

29:42

Labour is quite striking. They are offering breakfast clubs

29:45

as what we think is going

29:47

to be in their manifesto, but they consistently say they

29:49

can't afford to do universal

29:51

free school meals, for example.

29:54

Do you think that's a false economy? Do you think they

29:56

should try and find the money for that? It's very difficult,

29:58

Robert, because I think it's long... term, I think

30:01

absolutely it should be. And

30:03

I do think that just in terms of

30:05

health and food education is massive. It's

30:07

an investment in kids, the future.

30:09

It's an investment of like seven, eight,

30:11

nine year olds now to when they

30:14

28. It's a 20 year vision down

30:16

the line. I understand why parties are

30:18

saying that they can't afford it right

30:20

now, because everything is broken. We have

30:23

a transportation system, we have an education system,

30:25

we have a health service, we have everything

30:27

is broken. Everyone's got to try and find

30:29

whoever's coming in, no matter what their manifesto, they

30:32

got to say we got to fix that, we

30:34

got to fix that. Everybody is saying that it

30:36

needs fixing. However, long term from a food education

30:38

point of view, it is definitely that something that

30:40

should be in there. I understand why it might

30:42

not be in this first manifesto. But for second

30:44

term, this is a long term vision. What I'd

30:46

love political parties to do is think of the

30:48

future, just not think of short four term policies

30:50

to get them over the line and then change

30:52

their mind when they're in. They have to look

30:54

at this as a long term vision. I totally

30:56

agree. It's like it's the absolute building block

30:58

of our whole economy is feeding our kids

31:00

and allowing them to learn properly and then

31:02

they don't cook at school anymore. Kids are

31:05

not cooking at school. So the only place

31:07

that they can get food education is actually

31:09

through the food that we're giving them. Can

31:11

I just talk a little bit more about

31:14

you though? Because one of the things you've

31:16

got abundant energy, you're very ambitious. I'm always

31:18

interested as I think Steph is about why

31:21

some people have this drive to

31:24

create something in your case, it's business.

31:27

Where do you get that? If you look

31:29

back at your childhood, it was a really

31:31

challenging childhood. Your mum basically had an enormous

31:34

amount of responsibility on her shoulders. I think your

31:36

dad was very unwell, wasn't he? Yeah. As I

31:38

understand. Yeah, my mum and dad split up when

31:40

I was 11 years old. I

31:42

mean, they didn't have the perfect marriage by any

31:44

means. And then my

31:47

father had multiple sclerosis and he passed away by

31:49

the time I was 18. And

31:51

that was a very, yeah, it was quite difficult. Those

31:53

Teenage years of not seeing your dad or your dad,

31:56

not knowing who you were and trying to live with

31:58

your mum, trying to provide everything for you. We've

32:00

had to be teenage kids are be not

32:02

as I hate to engage in this world

32:04

that really hate of zombies or of your

32:06

lot with the of this myself to honest

32:08

I myself you have a sort of think

32:10

about what it was a bags growing up

32:12

you know are you trying to prove something

32:14

to a mom to a dad? what's what's

32:16

going on I just know like is we

32:19

is a to honor say it's much simpler

32:21

than that as the i just in a

32:23

be so lucky dice find something that I

32:25

want to be a pause and been a

32:27

as an eighteen year old of walks is

32:29

at teaching. In it was just Idris is weird

32:31

and a look at it when am I squeeze I

32:33

was never worried that I wasn't going to be alright

32:35

I was all I was so or whatever I do

32:38

on our be alright. Is not because

32:40

because we wave up and I have talked about

32:42

this the sauce at the else in the people

32:44

go on. c really rather nice, has had some

32:46

type of charm and the childhood which means that

32:48

way more risky because they were saying that could

32:50

possibly happen to them so that kind of guns

32:52

raised it to think that at the ever and

32:54

your he likes. I've seen the west of S.

32:57

It. Can only get best. Yeah when I look

32:59

back to the and and I think it's

33:01

only because when I started leaving school, mixing

33:03

with other people from different backgrounds, different age

33:05

groups, different generations and and an understanding of

33:07

the world is a bigger eclectic mix and

33:09

just you peer groups you go out with

33:11

Mississippi for the I went to school with.

33:13

Actually my situation wasn't really too dissimilar. You

33:15

know there was lots of single parent families.

33:17

There was a many of them. his father

33:19

died but it was very ill and died

33:21

by the age of eighteen and I think

33:24

that kind of i think that sets you

33:26

up into being you've grown. Up quite a lot.

33:28

Like. Quite early. Usually they've grown up quite

33:30

a loss, but you don't realize it then

33:32

and then when you start walking into the

33:34

bigger picture of life than all of us

33:36

and you start realizing both. this isn't that

33:38

bad. Nothing is that bond Yes you're in

33:40

a kitchen is and is going wrong and

33:42

assessed on happy and this is grumpy and

33:45

customers upset by that sees us not him

33:47

the voters just food said we can make

33:49

us So I do think there may be

33:51

right. Maybe there is senses I just sent

33:53

out an early learning curve is no I

33:55

have big thing to set you up to

33:57

the feature this is today. At the time,

33:59

some. to take a break so we will be

34:01

back in a few minutes. You

34:09

say that you always had this sort of sense

34:11

that you were going to be all right, but

34:13

actually it isn't quite as straightforward as that, is

34:15

it, because one of the things you have talked

34:17

about is that you had something of a drink

34:19

problem for many years. So that

34:21

must, you can't have felt so great

34:23

about yourself if you're drinking that

34:26

much. Well, when

34:28

this is another thing, I absolutely loved that time in

34:30

my life. I genuinely,

34:32

like we were, I had book deals,

34:35

we won two mission stars, we had,

34:37

you know, the business was really busy

34:40

and I was getting battered and living an

34:42

amazing party life. And it wasn't like it

34:44

was my world. I love the realism. Yeah,

34:46

like, I mean, I don't think you were

34:49

fundamentally unhappy in any way. And this was

34:51

a way of coping with it. No,

34:53

it was a release of the pressures of

34:55

running that business, the excitement of it, the

34:57

world that I was in, the really early

35:00

mornings, the very late nights, how do I

35:02

escape from it? My, where are

35:04

you an alcoholic? Yeah, oh yeah, I have

35:06

an addictive, I cannot drink now. I can't,

35:09

I haven't drank for 10 years. And I

35:11

can't, there was one period where I dropped

35:13

on one Saturday night into, I met

35:15

Beth and we went into town. It was about

35:18

9.30 at night. And I thought I'll

35:20

have one of those Bex non-alcoholic

35:22

beers. And I thought, you know, it's fine. It's been about

35:24

three years and no drinking. I'll have one of those, that'd

35:27

be fine. And I literally

35:29

just something about the process, the bottle opening,

35:31

the smell, the energy, the environment. I'd done

35:33

eight bottles of them in 20 minutes. I

35:36

was on it, I was on it, I was on it. I

35:38

was on non-alcoholic. That can't have been good for your gut, that.

35:41

No, no, no. But also

35:43

it makes you go, there really is a problem.

35:45

There is an issue here that I can't deal

35:47

with the association of it. But I loved every

35:49

bit about the energy. I wasn't an

35:51

alcoholic in the point where people would sit there and

35:54

drink vodka, quietly sipping it out of a

35:56

bottle or hiding it and just in their

35:58

own little world. rank. In

36:01

fact, people. Yeah, for chaos and lunacy and

36:03

excitement and I would do it all the

36:05

time and it would be brilliant. But

36:07

that came in hand in hand with running that business. But

36:09

it also comes to a point where I was

36:12

approaching 40 and I went, I've got this isn't right.

36:14

I got like, I'm not going to get to 50.

36:16

I've got to stop. This is ridiculous. There was a

36:18

health scare. There wasn't a thing. There wasn't. I

36:21

just went, this is just this part of my

36:23

life. You're going to change. Yeah, I have to end. I'm not

36:26

stupid. That's so funny how you hit 40 and

36:28

that happens because I think that's happened to me. I

36:30

mean, I don't think I drank as much as you,

36:32

Tom, but I certainly am of a similar vein of,

36:34

you know, if you've got a high

36:36

pressure job, then there's nothing I love more than me

36:38

and my partner drinking loads of wine and having a

36:41

laugh and like, and I guess that's similar to you

36:43

and Beth. But when I hit 40, I was like,

36:45

I don't think I should be doing this really. I

36:47

think I should try and, you know,

36:49

no, no, I haven't, no, I haven't stopped

36:51

completely, but I've definitely drastically cut down. I

36:54

think it's when also when people start telling

36:56

to count your units and when you, when

36:58

you start going, actually, I'm about seven times

37:01

over the unit. I've been a week and I've done

37:03

it in two hours. Yes.

37:10

I have to go into anything in life

37:12

like that. So

37:17

if I'm going to do without help, though, yeah, I stopped

37:19

that. Yeah, I worked out for myself. It took me three

37:21

months. I knew the process. I knew where I was going

37:24

to stop, but I worked out for myself and I stopped

37:26

and I went, that's it. What

37:28

I love hearing you talk about as well is,

37:30

you know, you talk so brilliantly about your wife,

37:32

Beth, and I know you've got a child together as well.

37:35

But you, how important is that in your

37:37

business life as well to have that kind

37:40

of strong relationship with your misses? The

37:42

hardest thing and the best thing ever,

37:44

because when you operate and run a

37:46

business together, because when we open the hand

37:48

of flowers, Beth is running front of house, you know, and

37:50

you go through so much as a couple that isn't, it's

37:52

not like a normal relationship. Most people

37:54

disappear, go off to work, come back and see each

37:57

other and go and then tell each other about how

37:59

rubbish that day was. and I would come back

38:01

and go, yeah, the front of house manager did

38:03

this wrong and that wrong today and that. But

38:05

actually, the front of house manager was better. So

38:07

that does put pressure on the business and

38:10

your relationship. But it also makes it so

38:12

much stronger when you come through the other

38:14

side and you've been, we've absolutely lived and

38:16

are living a life together. Bess and I

38:19

make an amazing, uncompromised art that's winning global

38:21

awards and doing really well, but she's still

38:23

involved in the business. She's still involved in

38:25

the day-to-day, just looking at the accounts, making

38:28

sure it's all working, just making sure that

38:30

it's not, she's not in there, she's not

38:32

carrying place, she's not, but she's still this

38:34

huge influence that kind of sits over the

38:36

business. And I get on

38:39

trying to drive it. And it's really important.

38:41

It's so amazing. It's amazing, I think, for

38:43

our little man as well to be in

38:45

that, to understand the world is driven by

38:48

two people that have taken the destiny of

38:50

their life in their own hands. And I

38:52

quite like that. And I like that's a

38:54

learning curve for him. But also, we're learning

38:57

together. Like, I'm learning about being a

38:59

dad. My dad wasn't there as a little kid, so

39:01

I haven't got anything to build up on of going

39:03

reflection of this is what you do, and this is

39:05

how you do it. So I'm learning being a dad,

39:07

the same point as he's there, having a

39:09

dad. And I really quite enjoy that journey.

39:11

It's an unknown. Before we wrap up, you

39:13

know, when you get a Michelin star, what

39:17

actually happens? Like, does someone come around

39:19

with a confetti cannon and set

39:21

it off and do a certificate? No,

39:24

not well, it's changed slightly. So you're inspected

39:26

pretty much every year, you think you don't

39:28

know no one announces no one tells you

39:30

they just come in and you you know,

39:32

guess who the inspector is when they turn

39:34

up? No, well, I think if

39:36

you've been doing it for long enough, we've been open

39:39

19 years, and I think some of the inspectors don't

39:41

move is that they stay in that position. So and

39:43

we'd be very fortunate that most of our team, you

39:45

know, Lord has is our general manager has been with

39:47

us for 17 and a half years, Katie, our restaurant

39:49

manager is 15 years. So they've

39:51

been with us for a long time. So they'll

39:53

know they might recognize a face. So you might

39:55

be lucky enough. But if not, it doesn't really

39:58

matter, because every guest is equally as a important.

40:00

But it used to be when we won the first

40:02

one, I got a phone call off of chef mate,

40:04

who said if you looked at the internet, it's been

40:06

leaked, you better go and have a little look. So

40:08

I went and looked on the internet, we won a

40:10

mission start and there was no that was it. And

40:12

the book comes out and then you found out from

40:14

somebody else. It

40:19

was all about everyone was googling looking online and

40:21

seeing what's happening. But now they've kind of moved

40:23

the guy because the guy book is now not

40:25

in print. The guy book is all online. And

40:27

then they do an award ceremony. So the last

40:29

few years, they do a big award ceremony.

40:32

So all the new stars, people that want

40:34

it, they're invited there and they go through

40:36

the process. So there is a bit more

40:38

substance to winning a star now than it used

40:40

to be, just your mate ringing you up and

40:43

letting you know. And then do you feel

40:45

pressure when you've won one, then

40:47

because everyone's going to think everything you do

40:49

after that is going to be amazing. Yeah,

40:51

do you know what, actually, some of the

40:54

worst, the heaviest and the hardest moments were

40:56

the three, four, five months at the hand

40:58

of flowers after we won that second star.

41:00

Really? Because it was the first pub to

41:02

win two stars. And we have no tablecloths.

41:04

It's small. The tables are exactly the same

41:07

positions they were when we first opened. It's

41:09

a little cramped. You have to pass plates

41:11

over to people. So there

41:13

was people that were comparing it to,

41:15

at the time, maybe the gavroche or

41:18

the manoist, uber amazing,

41:20

beautiful French two mission star restaurants.

41:22

And we're very different to that.

41:24

So the weight of

41:27

that pressure weighed real heavy.

41:29

But then there was an industry kind of pushback

41:31

of people going, actually, this is amazing. It's brilliant.

41:34

You can win accolades and not have to have

41:36

all of the other stuff that goes with it.

41:38

It started becoming celebrated. And then all of a

41:40

sudden, that kind of weight release and you go

41:42

actually, we're very proud of what we've done. This

41:44

is amazing. We should be proud. And then you

41:46

have to remind yourself that you're

41:48

judged on the food from the year before. It's

41:50

not what you're cooking in the future. So you've

41:53

got the award for what you

41:55

did last year. So you go, actually, no, we were all right last

41:57

year. And it's fine. In fact, you just had to remind us. So

42:00

I was a now a much more comfortable with it. When

42:02

we, I think last

42:04

chatted, you were very concerned

42:06

about how combination

42:09

of Brexit and COVID was just making

42:11

it incredibly difficult to get

42:13

the people you need for

42:16

your restaurants and businesses. As

42:18

it happens, I'm seeing Tim

42:20

Martin later on today who supported Brexit

42:22

and he's got a slightly different perspective.

42:25

Weatherspoon's boss. The Weatherspoon's founder and boss.

42:28

And his line is, you know, we've had the

42:30

same people for years. We're not so dependent on

42:32

people coming from abroad. What do you think back

42:34

in the differences? Why does he take that view

42:36

and you take a somewhat different view? Without being

42:39

rude about Weatherspoon's outlet, which I actually

42:41

think is a business model, I think

42:43

they're great, but the skill set level

42:45

is very, very different. So you have

42:47

people that operate, they're pulling pints of

42:49

beer and they're reheating and regenning, bought

42:51

in pre-pat food from a

42:53

particular, you know, a big food

42:55

couglomer. Actually, what we're doing, and

42:57

particularly in the skill sector, is one that is

42:59

very, very different. And it's harder to get those

43:02

skills in Britain. Well, no, it's not harder, but

43:04

it just takes longer to get that skill set. You

43:07

know, there is a... So Brexit was a huge

43:09

shock to you, was it, in terms of not

43:11

having that free flow of people? Absolutely, yeah. You

43:13

lose that free flow of people. And people would

43:15

argue that there's a star shortage everywhere all over

43:17

Europe and that is also true. But actually, across

43:20

Europe, there is a freedom movement of people. You

43:22

can go from Germany to Spain, you can go

43:24

from Spain to France, you can go from France

43:26

to Belgium, okay? You can

43:28

be young, professional and trained. In

43:30

the UK, we can't do

43:32

that. What we have to do is we have to sponsor the people that

43:34

are coming in, that's a cost to

43:36

the business. Those people that are then coming

43:38

in have to commit to the business for

43:40

a long period of time. Actually, that isn't

43:42

how hospitality works. It's free flowing. There

43:45

is that kind of... People want to have

43:47

that sense of movement, being able to move

43:50

to... If you're a French... And you're starfaring. So you

43:52

want to move to London. And ambitious, they want to

43:54

get experience elsewhere. Exactly. And actually, most

43:56

often when they talk about moving, they're not talking about

43:58

trying to get into Europe. about going to Australia

44:01

or the States where they can get sponsored and

44:03

it becomes a different life experience. And you go,

44:05

well, actually, that's Europe's loss. That's a huge loss

44:07

to us. So, yeah, there is a lot of

44:09

issues regarding staff. That skill set is in the

44:11

UK, but it just takes longer to get it.

44:14

We have to nurture it. We have to embrace

44:16

it. We have to go through apprenticeship schemes. I

44:19

mentioned earlier, none of it can be

44:21

replaced with experience. And if you remove

44:23

that experience out, all of those wonderful

44:25

European countries out of hospitality, that experience

44:27

takes a long time for us to

44:29

backfill that with UK people. Yeah, that's

44:32

better. Fascinating stuff. Yeah, amazing. Thank you.

44:34

I love the fact you're going from

44:36

a Michelin star to a Wetherspoons chat

44:38

after this. That's like most of my staff,

44:40

they'll cook there and then they'll go to the spoons. Tom,

44:45

thank you so much. That's been amazing. Thank you

44:47

for having me. Amazing conversation. Thanks again. Well,

44:52

that was really fascinating and an

44:54

enormous amount of, you know, I'm

44:56

going to use the appropriate metaphor,

44:59

food for thought. I mean, so

45:01

as we've talked about before, what

45:04

turns somebody, particularly somebody

45:07

who has not done well in

45:09

a sort of conventional sense

45:11

at school into a

45:14

creator of a business, an employer,

45:16

somebody with the kind of drive

45:19

that he has, I always find

45:21

intrinsically interesting, but also,

45:23

you know, again, hearing him

45:26

talk about his struggles with

45:29

addiction, why he

45:31

cares so passionately about helping

45:33

young people acquire, not just academic

45:35

skills, but the broader skills that will

45:38

allow them to have very

45:40

satisfying lives in his industry. All of that was

45:42

pretty important, I thought. Yeah, his attitude to

45:44

business was really interesting as well. You know,

45:46

we've talked about this before, that whole risk

45:49

taker life that people end up having

45:51

when they've had pretty tough childhoods. We've

45:53

seen that so often, haven't we? You

45:55

did a documentary series on it. That

45:57

was really interesting, but also things like...

46:00

how honest he is lying to the bank to get

46:02

the money to set up the hand in flowers. Well,

46:04

he was honest in talking to us. Yeah. He

46:06

was honest at the time. But anyway, let's move

46:08

on. I

46:10

was hoping that his bank manager wasn't listening to

46:12

that. No, yeah. I bet they don't care anymore. But

46:15

it is funny that, and even just the

46:17

fact that the risks he has taken, him

46:19

talking about investors, these people who come in,

46:21

business partners who come in and just stump

46:23

up the money but then don't really have

46:25

the same work ethic and the stuff he's

46:27

learned from that. Really, really interesting. And then

46:29

I think it is true that loads of

46:31

people do want to set up, have this

46:33

retirement dream of setting up a B&B or

46:35

a restaurant or a cafe or whatever

46:37

else. And he put it in no

46:40

uncertain terms how hard it is. And

46:42

he was basically saying, if you're just doing it

46:44

as a bit of a hobby, you're going to

46:46

fail. And I'm sure that is absolutely

46:49

right because I was

46:52

talking about the fact my sister was in this

46:54

industry for years. It is such

46:56

a grueling, hard industry. And even

46:58

though, as he says, it's a

47:01

very difficult time to be in.

47:03

It's always been a risky business.

47:06

It is an industry

47:08

where so many businesses fail, even in so-called

47:10

good times. I used to go out with

47:12

someone who had a gastro pub. And I couldn't

47:14

even go to the gastro pub because it got

47:16

too stressful because I'd been monitoring the customer service.

47:18

Table 5, but still haven't been served what we're

47:20

going to do about it. Right. I'll just go

47:23

and help. So I just

47:25

couldn't imagine the pressure and everything and the way

47:27

you have to deal with it. But he was

47:29

really fascinating on all of that. Finally, it's something

47:31

you and I both passionately agree on.

47:34

There is something mad about an education

47:36

system where people are school hungry. I

47:40

think we both applaud his determination,

47:42

a bit like Marcus Rashford, just to

47:44

keep this front and center of the

47:46

political debate. Of course, there are enormous,

47:49

competing priorities about which public services

47:51

we put money into. But the

47:53

idea that we're going to get

47:56

the kind of ambitious,

47:58

fulfilled, resilient, young people

48:01

if they're not eating. I mean, you

48:03

know, it's so important. Yeah, because he

48:05

worked with Marcus Rashford on quite a

48:08

bit of that as well. But also

48:10

that feeds into our last interview with

48:12

Mariana, the Italian economist, who was talking

48:14

about how actually something like school

48:17

meals being free is an investment. It's

48:19

not a cost for the government. Right. We should

48:21

leave things there. I think you need to go

48:24

off and get yourself into the weatherspoons. Got

48:26

to get into the government's spoon frame of mind. Yeah.

48:28

Do you know, there's a great dead ringers where

48:31

Deborah Stevenson does a skit of me on the

48:33

Radio 4 show Dead Ringers, and she's got me

48:35

in a weatherspoon stuck to the carpet or something.

48:37

And it's a really funny scene where I'm in

48:40

a spoon. Anyway, you can also listen to that

48:42

on Radio 4. But right, let's

48:44

wrap things up then and we will speak to you

48:46

soon. Bye bye. Bye bye.