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2:04

Welcome to the rest of this politics question time

2:06

with me Rory Stewart. And me,

2:08

Alice Campbell. And Alice, you seem to be

2:10

back in London, is that right? I am.

2:13

I'm in London. I'm in my room. There's

2:16

a beautiful blue wall behind you. Thank you. Yeah, blue

2:18

walls, most of the red wall. Yeah, that's it. Yeah.

2:20

Now, why don't we start with one in person,

2:23

Ken Ross, Rory, Laurie Hughes. I

2:25

manage a busy food bank in Perth and Ken

2:28

Ross, close to home, Rory. It's

2:30

the cost of living crisis and yet only a

2:32

handful of elected officials have ever engaged to ask

2:35

what we're seeing and hearing. Why is there not

2:37

more interest in poverty and how should

2:39

I call this out? I hear this a lot from

2:41

people who are involved in that sort of thing that

2:43

they, yes, people are aware of the existence of food

2:45

banks. But when you look at

2:48

our politics and our media, you don't really see that

2:50

much focus on what it

2:52

is like to be so poor that you're

2:54

having to regularly

2:56

rely on handouts and food from other

2:59

people and organizations. You're completely right. And

3:02

obviously, Labour talks about it more than the

3:04

Conservatives, but even Labour doesn't talk about it

3:06

as much as you'd expect. And

3:08

I think it's something that I noticed when

3:10

Ed Miliband was Labour leader because I think

3:12

he was talking about the squeezed

3:15

middle. It's partly

3:17

about electoral politics, isn't it?

3:19

That these parties are competing

3:21

for the majority of voters.

3:24

And I think the challenge

3:26

in British society is the kind of, let's say,

3:28

7, 10% of very poorest

3:30

people in our country who are often

3:32

in really horrible situations. Some

3:34

of them are young, some of them are

3:37

poor, poor elderly, obviously the homeless. And

3:39

for me, people coming out of prison get

3:42

very little focus, partly because

3:44

often those are communities that vote

3:46

less than other people, in case the

3:48

president's cause they're not allowed to vote.

3:50

And it's a real test

3:53

of our society, whether we are

3:56

properly looking after people. I mean, I'm

3:58

very hopeful that Labour... will increase

4:00

support. A lot of it is actually

4:02

cash support. I'm a real believer in

4:04

cash as you know. I don't think we

4:06

should be giving out food. We should be giving

4:08

cash to people so that they can buy their

4:10

own food. But that, if you think about the

4:12

number of people who are using food banks now,

4:14

you're talking then about increasing universal credit and other

4:17

benefits on a scale that at the moment,

4:19

labor are not proposing at all.

4:22

Yeah, but we absolutely have to

4:24

do it because it's very inefficient

4:26

to be giving people food. Partly because I saw

4:29

in them, I went to a food

4:31

bank in the northeast and some

4:34

people are selling the food which

4:36

they've been giving out the bank. Now, I'm not saying

4:39

this is a criticism. In some ways, they're forced to.

4:41

These are people who are really short of cash. But

4:43

it's something that we see in the developing world too

4:46

that if you only give people food and people have

4:48

other needs, they'll try to turn that food into cash.

4:50

It's much more efficient to give them cash in the

4:52

first place. Another theme, Sam

4:54

Carlyle, Keir Starmer has talked

4:56

about his brother having learning difficulties. This

4:58

is something that's in this new

5:01

biography by Tom Baldwin. Why is

5:03

the biggest minority in the UK disabled people

5:05

not a bigger element of policy decisions and

5:07

announcements? I guess that is another area, isn't

5:09

it, where we all

5:11

know people who struggle with

5:14

various forms of disability

5:16

and yet again, it's not really

5:18

a big central part of the

5:20

political debate. That's true. My sister

5:22

has Down syndrome and I

5:25

think about it a lot and I worry

5:27

obviously about her a lot. I

5:29

have to say, the Scottish government has been

5:31

very generous and supportive and

5:34

in the early days provided her with

5:37

career mentoring and support to get into

5:39

work. But it's still very, very

5:41

tough. I was watching actually a wonderful,

5:44

very weird documentary called This Is

5:46

Not A Horror Film written and

5:49

directed by somebody who has

5:51

Down syndrome. It's a wonderfully funny,

5:55

edgy, dangerous thing because also it's

5:57

clearly a very eccentric

5:59

trick of an outrageous young man who

6:02

loves kind of dirty jokes and loves

6:04

horror movies and who's put this film

6:06

together. I'd really encourage people to watch it who's

6:08

interested because... What's he called again? He's

6:10

called Otto Baxter and he's got, you

6:12

know, he's got Down Syndrome. He's got serious learning difficulties

6:15

and he's produced this documentary called Not

6:18

a Fucking Horror Story. And

6:21

it's in which he absolutely engages

6:23

in all the things that he

6:25

loves, you know, that

6:27

he also tells a really moving

6:30

story about his own life, the way that he

6:32

was given up for adoption by his mother and

6:34

how he comes to terms with that, how he

6:36

comes to terms with the way that people look

6:38

at him in supermarkets, his own adopted mother who

6:40

adopted four children with Down Syndrome. So it's

6:43

wonderful that documentary makers are engaging with

6:45

these kinds of topics, but I also

6:47

feel as somebody with a Down Syndrome

6:49

sister that I'm not doing enough to

6:51

make sure that, you know, actually has a fully...

6:54

That she's not lonely, that she has a full kind

6:56

of community around her and society around her. So I'd

6:59

love to see a government leaning into this more.

7:02

I also think with special educational needs

7:04

that the issue gets looked

7:07

at pretty much entirely through almost through a prism

7:09

of cost as opposed to a

7:11

prism of the opportunity of

7:14

what talents can we bring out and what opportunities

7:16

can we develop and give. And you

7:19

know, I think it was at Warwickshire Council recently,

7:21

there was some pretty unpleasant points

7:23

being made about children with

7:26

special educational needs. So anyway, I know I've

7:28

just recognized the name Sam Carla, I know

7:30

she's a big campaigner on special educational needs.

7:32

And maybe with Keir Starmer, if

7:35

he does become Prime Minister, having that personal

7:37

experience, because what's important about, I

7:39

think about Tom Baldwin's book is

7:41

actually it does sort of relate

7:43

a lot of what's happened in

7:45

Keir Starmer's childhood and

7:47

early life and his early adulthood into

7:49

the kind of person and politician that

7:51

he's become. So I don't think we

7:54

should underestimate those kind of personal experiences

7:56

in people's lives. It's like, you know, the fact that

7:58

you took that question immediately to a personal experience

8:00

of yours, your sister, and

8:02

what that makes you feel about what the

8:04

Scottish government does, what more you could do,

8:06

etc. I think that those personal experiences in

8:09

Polygens' lives have more impact sometimes than we

8:11

realise. Yeah, yeah. And I think that the

8:13

book is interesting, isn't it? Because it also

8:15

talks about his strengths and his weaknesses in

8:17

the way that he felt under

8:19

a lot of pressure at home, and that's

8:21

probably created a more guided personality. Mm-hmm. Yeah,

8:24

absolutely. Well, here's one for me that Cassie

8:26

Garbert is already getting grump here on the

8:28

hashtag leading interviews. It seems to coincide with

8:30

us moving back to the UK from Jordan.

8:33

Also, what's Rory's new US job? Thank you.

8:35

So, second question. First,

8:38

I'm my new US job. I'm teaching at

8:40

Yale University. I teach a course called Grand

8:42

Strategy. So, last week we

8:44

did the African War, a week before Vietnam,

8:46

taught British Navy in the 18th century, teach

8:49

ancient Greek wars. It's a way to look

8:51

at the integration of political economic military strategy

8:53

through history and time, the seminar for students.

8:57

Am I getting more grumpy? I think I may be getting

8:59

more grumpy. By the way, Rory, this question, I spotted this

9:01

question as well. This question came

9:03

in before the interview with Jamie Rubin

9:05

went out. So, this grumpiness is being

9:07

picked up even before the one

9:09

where you got quite grumpy. And meanwhile, you're becoming

9:11

ever more kind of zen and calm, aren't you?

9:14

I don't know about that. Although Jamie Rubin, I

9:16

went for a cup of tea with him after

9:18

our interview and he said, yeah, it

9:20

was kind of expected. You're usually the one who

9:22

beats people up, and I thought, well, you'd be

9:24

beating me up. But in fact, you were really

9:26

kind of calm and zen, as you say, had

9:28

really got quite spiky. But I don't think I'm

9:31

that much more zen than I've ever been. But

9:33

I thought it was a good interview. What I

9:35

like about spiky

9:37

exchanges, I don't think you were grumpy. I

9:39

think you were quite challenging. And I think

9:41

he got irritated because he thought you were

9:43

being the classic cynical Brit about

9:45

American power. And it's true what you say. If

9:48

you remember, Rory, in the interview, people should listen to

9:50

this. He did actually say

9:52

in answer to one of the early questions, America

9:54

is not nearly as powerful as it used to

9:56

be. He said that when you made that point.

10:01

How dare you say you're very good at

10:03

losing his power. Anyway, I thought you both

10:05

under these holes perfectly fine. Either you

10:07

or him, I wouldn't get worried about him. But are

10:09

you getting grumpier back in Britain? That's a good question.

10:11

I think it's been quite a relief getting back to

10:14

it. I found coming back to Britain actually from Jordan

10:16

has been tough. I found it

10:18

very difficult kind of getting stopped on

10:20

the street and people sort of saying you need

10:22

to go back into politics and the kind of

10:24

weird projections about that. But that's more psychological

10:27

drama than maybe we need on

10:29

Question Time. Right. Here's a

10:32

question for you. Paul Dawson, what role

10:34

could you envision for Britain on the

10:36

global stage that is both ambitious and

10:38

realistic, contributes to make the

10:41

world safer and better, inspires widespread patriotic

10:43

private in the UK, and can be

10:45

implemented at various scales, irrespective of the

10:47

next US president or political changes in

10:49

European countries? Well, Alison, that's quite a

10:51

question. Well, first of

10:53

all, we've just plugged a leading interview that's already

10:56

gone out. Let me plug one that will be

10:58

coming out in the coming weeks. And that is

11:00

with Anthony Gormley, the great British

11:02

sculptor. Because I

11:04

think one role that you could envision for Britain on

11:06

the global stage that is ambitious and realistic, does

11:09

relate to this notion I have,

11:12

that we should put arts and culture at

11:15

the centre of a bigger strategy of

11:17

projecting Britain to the world. I

11:19

do think we have to rebuild some of the

11:21

relationships that we've damaged. I too

11:23

also think that we have to think more seriously about

11:26

our role as a defence power. I think we talk

11:28

the talk on it at the moment without delivering

11:30

it. And I think we

11:32

could rebuild our reputation in the world of

11:34

aid and development as well. But I think

11:36

a combination of those things, and to be

11:39

absolutely frank, getting back to some clear sensible

11:41

grown up leadership would be good. Very good.

11:43

I mean, it is. It's a brilliant question. I

11:45

love the way that Paul Dawson, who have Paul

11:48

Dawson as his articulated that. Ambitious,

11:50

realistic, making the world safe from

11:52

battle, but also inspires widespread patriotic pride, implementing

11:54

various scales, irrespective of the next US president

11:56

or political change in European countries. I mean,

11:58

it's a great question. My mom.

12:01

Will some on this is

12:03

to think about as a

12:05

country like Germany. A.

12:08

Big power. But. Not a superpower

12:10

and I think we should be

12:12

so to sing it the internecine

12:15

on places like Africa because I

12:17

think we. Can have much

12:19

more positive influence their as he thought

12:21

about but sick make much for difference.

12:23

Just on historical ties in Africa really

12:26

messes. Does. I keep saying and

12:28

one in ten children born in the world

12:30

will be born in Nigeria. or Twenty fifty

12:32

And I think that one of the mistakes

12:34

Britain has made his to fantasize that it

12:37

can be a major player. In

12:39

Indochina it it can't really. Needs.

12:42

I've his eyes looking at what the British embassies been

12:44

doing in Kenya recently. And. It's really remarkable

12:46

I think you know along with other people in

12:48

a lot of it as the Kenyan government they

12:50

have played a big part in. Brain

12:52

green investment into the country

12:54

supporting the stock exchange, getting

12:57

check investment in. In. Way

12:59

that I didn't think would be possible

13:01

in many other parts world we gonna

13:03

questions as week about the to him

13:05

more thing about the arts of hims

13:08

was in surgery was you have usually

13:10

comes to cold to budgets by local

13:12

authorities suffered not Bermuda etc How back

13:14

with I Target for reinstatement rather more

13:17

provocatively Lisa Olson's using the Burmese City

13:19

Council in totally decimating defunding all of

13:21

the also organizations and most of the

13:23

libraries will read any benefits from having

13:26

a city totally devoid of cultural offerings.

13:28

The short answer to that is of course

13:30

know as on the street he up. The.

13:33

West Midlands Metro Man. Had

13:35

a piece in one of the pages

13:38

of the Weekend Way essentially by blaming

13:40

the City council. Do you remember Roy

13:42

when we interviewed him with Andy Burnham?

13:44

that was the day that this the

13:47

some crisis was coming to to ahead.

13:49

They've now back to me these terrible

13:51

cause he has been related to past

13:53

spending decisions but I think is a

13:56

worrying signal that people think the arts

13:58

and culture the easy for. This place

14:00

to go in and know these are

14:02

places it easy for cuts but they

14:04

they feel they can get away with

14:07

it More like think that is relating

14:09

to to Sarah's question that is because

14:11

we don't and this is Antony Gormley

14:13

was so wonderful We're talking to him.

14:15

You know is not enough to say

14:17

the arts can be a source of

14:20

funding, source of tax revenue, and so

14:22

forth. He sexy about what benefit we

14:24

can bring to ourselves into our communities

14:26

by understanding the broader importance of the

14:28

hours per se. So I I

14:31

I do see this is a very

14:33

very very short sighted approach. It it

14:35

and Uncles it's It's tempting said because

14:37

the city council with say that they

14:39

can start of money by the system

14:41

but they are Labor Labor Council sign.

14:44

I guess it's yeah I'm now. here's

14:46

a question that come in from Nicole:

14:48

Should we be worried about poor muscle

14:50

who and co Ncd nice potential purchasing

14:52

the telegraph and spectators city So easy

14:55

going. I put ice in that he

14:57

got us not an electronically I don't

14:59

know it's a Nicole may be may

15:01

be giving him a an honor. Oh

15:03

my God. Sir Paul Rodriguez Lucas Mosul.

15:06

Clearly. Aren't according to the Sunday Soldiers

15:08

list is was six hundred and thirty

15:10

million pounds. Well I think he's a

15:12

very very dangerous person. He says i'm

15:14

sorry what? Because he was has lit

15:16

Big Lib Dem Donor gates and two

15:18

hundred thousand pounds stood unsuccessfully to be

15:20

a Lib Dem Mp says that like

15:22

the list Trust Journey. And then

15:24

became a big breakfast. Sports is anybody

15:26

gets the Central London and books from

15:29

Sloane Square up censor. You can see

15:31

his office unless it's like cause enormous

15:33

wouldn't elephant I'm in launches in a

15:35

real elephants on the ground floor. Putting.

15:38

Food on the street, When he

15:40

has a bizarre journey, who's up? There are

15:42

many, many reasons why was Charles Kennedy was

15:44

still alive? But whoop be to find out

15:46

what's happened to this guy. says he was

15:48

it because he would as a researcher for

15:50

Charles back in the eighties. Essence

15:52

of Parliament as a Lib dem. Yup,

15:55

Eco edited the the the same

15:57

as Orange Book which is this

16:00

Nick Clegg. A. Day The

16:02

David Luiz approach to liberal.

16:05

Democracy. Gave money as

16:07

you say and then started getting money

16:09

to up to his at the center.

16:11

All the stories. Michael Gove that's how

16:14

Isis chemical some said when I was

16:16

running as to the party leadership against

16:18

or something and against my cook as

16:20

I was invited by promise to dinner

16:22

at this office with the south and

16:25

six Marshall is. He's as he says

16:27

he says interesting His street C N

16:29

is also an evangelical christian. He supports

16:31

them at sets could hurt eternity Brompton.

16:34

And. I described that seen in

16:36

my book what this dinner was like

16:38

because it turned out to be kind

16:41

of Michael goes into Smith dinner and

16:43

he was an odd combination of very

16:45

conservative sees said pro bricks stuff but

16:47

also very I'm conservative. he's so very

16:49

kind of lib dem he. I think

16:51

they were basically skeptical about the Mauna

16:53

Kea will all about taking land away

16:56

from the Dukes. Kept

16:58

asking you know why is the British army

17:00

less good news really. Army was pretty side

17:02

of caution. the sky. Was

17:04

and. It was a Michael Geist

17:07

and Club with promise that sentiment,

17:09

But he also seems to like

17:11

Jordan Peterson. Who's this? Yeah.

17:14

Kind of right wing. Shock jock

17:17

Canadian professor. He and the thinks that

17:19

he's been retreating i'm just sister read

17:21

a little bit of them City Khan

17:23

is taking the piss talking about diverse

17:25

see there's no diversity and him with

17:28

some ghetto or in a Muslim society.

17:30

The. Muslim block they'd the keeps them anti

17:33

will vote labour until they can fitness

17:35

and Sixty's clearly become very very much

17:37

part of the. Weird kind of

17:39

idea that Islam is jehadi and it's

17:41

gotta be taken on t he liked

17:43

one that said if we want European

17:46

civilization to survive, we need not just

17:48

close the borders, but stop mass expulsions

17:50

immediately. We stand a chance. Lesley Stahl

17:52

that prices for since it's that's quite

17:55

a thing to like. a tweet that

17:57

says. As it doesn't generate

17:59

assistance, Weeks ago via when I when

18:01

I pointed out some of the stuff on

18:03

social media and on the Wigmore who is

18:06

Byron Bank says right on man and one

18:08

of the sort of self saw a bad

18:10

boys breaks it. He. Said well

18:12

I like some of your choice, others have

18:15

made me as or writing less to what

18:17

lot of your tweets since like because my

18:19

guess is that he's like in tweets of

18:21

yours that he agrees with he's not into

18:23

a seal to disagree. That is this list.

18:25

As if we think about the Lee Anderson

18:28

they recently is, it was. It arose because

18:30

he was speaking on Gb News, paid for

18:32

out of the money from Gb News in

18:34

which this guy invest millions of pounds and

18:36

is perfectly clear he is investing this. This

18:39

money in Gb News is losing a lot

18:41

of money. Clearly doesn't. Care because he's

18:43

giving them a platform for the views

18:45

that he wants to push Now. That.

18:47

Is why I guess there's a little bit of a

18:50

worry. Over. This guy further

18:52

east and the himself into the right wing

18:54

eco system by becoming a but the owner

18:56

of the of the daily telegraph soaps he

18:58

city where these guys is gone down the

19:00

political route as a Lib dem failed didn't

19:03

get elected in the places that he tried

19:05

to and is now decided this a better

19:07

way to power we don't have to santa

19:09

parliamentary that stuff you can't it is right

19:11

wing media ecosystem and you become a big

19:13

play with in it and hear you and

19:15

I here we are we talking about it

19:18

he's forty very happy about that. The.

19:20

Twitter Serious interesting to I'm.

19:22

A retreated scaring me see and

19:25

is listed a list. That

19:28

nobody has been in Trump's cabinets into

19:31

some of the swelling. And

19:34

replies I got negative replies took me

19:36

into this world very close as I

19:38

can see that are attacking me. The.

19:41

Same people who attacking me for attacking

19:43

Trump. Are people saying a

19:45

Us coos not be out of the

19:48

question in Britain? People who

19:50

reposting lighting their cigarettes with

19:52

Elisa the Koran. Replaced

19:54

in a simple question to one person to

19:56

be muslim or christian. and

19:58

pressing images purgified Pakistani

20:01

pediatricians or posting

20:03

images whenever young black men are

20:06

committing a crime, implicitly

20:08

implying that all the crime is driven by black

20:10

people. And it's really, I mean,

20:12

you get a sense, and I'm trying to work out

20:14

which of these are bots, which of these are fake

20:16

accounts, but there's a whole universe

20:19

of stuff that's very, very uniform. Yeah,

20:22

but that is why we shouldn't treat this stuff

20:24

lightly. And I do tell me what, you

20:26

know, what is Ofcom doing? How can you have in an

20:28

election year, TV station, that

20:31

it calls itself GB news, and which Ofcom

20:33

says is not a news channel, and therefore

20:35

not subject to the same rules as the

20:38

other TV channels, which has now a succession

20:40

of very right wing voices,

20:42

Jacob Rees-Mogg, Lee Anderson, Boris Johnson, all

20:44

these sort of people, the

20:47

MPs amongst whom you'd think would have enough

20:49

to do as MPs. But

20:51

this guy is clearly decided, he's a very,

20:53

very wealthy guy, he made his money through

20:56

hedge funds, he founded something

20:59

called Marshall Waste, which is one of Europe's biggest

21:02

hedge fund groups, got bags of money,

21:04

and he's using it to allow

21:06

himself to have views represented which,

21:08

fair enough, you can really entirely

21:10

believe in those views, but let's not pretend

21:12

that they are anything other than pretty

21:15

extreme. The other worry I have about this guy

21:17

is that, I don't know if he still is,

21:19

but he certainly was the chairman of Arc Schools,

21:21

which is one of the big

21:24

providers of academies. I

21:27

think the thing that we should have learned

21:29

about the history of British media is

21:32

that this capacity to

21:34

be both player and spectator,

21:37

but only be judged by the rules as though

21:39

you were a spectator rather than the player, I

21:41

think that has to change. Rupert

21:43

Murdoch, to my mind, and we were

21:45

as responsible as this for anybody, but

21:47

was allowed to amass far

21:50

too much power as an unaccountable

21:52

individual within our political system, and

21:55

Marshall is trying to do the same right now. Very good.

21:57

Okay Rory, loads more questions. break.

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credit score. Results

23:38

may vary. Question from Richard James. I have

23:40

to admit, but I still get confused between a

23:42

customs union and the single market.

23:44

Would it be possible to explain this? So,

23:46

quick explanation. A customs

23:49

union is what Turkey is in, and

23:51

it's a free trade agreement with your

23:53

opinion. So there are not tariffs and

23:55

quotas if you send goods between Turkey

23:57

and Europe. is

24:00

that it means that you're tied into all of

24:02

Europe's free trade deals around the world. Single market

24:04

is what Norway is in, so these are ways

24:06

of being close to Europe without being

24:08

in Europe. And that means

24:11

that you accept the four freedoms,

24:13

including free movement of people. Correct.

24:15

Very good explainer. Now, we discussed

24:18

this one briefly in

24:20

the context of the new Polish Foreign

24:22

Minister's speech in the UN, Steffi Laurenti.

24:24

I mentioned this question, I think it's worth going to in

24:26

more detail. Do you think we need a new way of

24:29

doing diplomacy? I don't know what happens

24:31

behind closed door, but it all sounds too robotic.

24:33

Although it should remain respectful, it would perhaps be

24:35

more effective to see world leaders speak their minds,

24:38

even expressing frustration if they have to.

24:41

And it's true this, isn't it? When you see world

24:44

leaders together, there's always an instinct to

24:46

sort of want to focus on

24:48

all the niceness and the togetherness. And on the one

24:50

hand, you kind of that's fine and you like that.

24:52

But sometimes you do get a feeling you're not getting

24:55

the full story. I used to

24:57

have this recurring dream because

24:59

Tony Blair was absolutely brilliant at these

25:01

sort of, you know, doing doorsteps, little

25:03

stand up press conferences with other leaders.

25:06

And it always start by saying something

25:08

very, very nice about the

25:10

other person. And I used to have this dream

25:12

about where Tony was doing

25:14

one alongside Osama bin Laden. And

25:17

I was dreading that Tony was going to

25:19

say something nice about Osama bin Laden, but he did.

25:21

And he started saying, you know, whatever people think about

25:23

Osama, he's got this, and he's got that, and he

25:25

likes his children and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But

25:28

I think there is something about diplomacy that is just

25:30

sometimes a bit too diplomatic. Yeah, that's

25:32

right. I mean, it's a really difficult one, because

25:34

it's one that Kia Salma is going to find

25:36

himself in if Trump becomes the President of the

25:38

United States, which is how on earth do you

25:41

sound normal, say the things that everybody

25:44

knows that you believe while also keeping

25:46

your diplomatic relations alive? One

25:49

of the other things that is striking is where

25:51

do we drop diplomatic relations? Where don't we, you

25:53

know, we've kept diplomatic relations with Russia, regardless of

25:55

what they do. But we've suspended diplomatic

25:57

relations with the Taliban. Yeah. And

26:00

that's presumably about power. I

26:02

think it's a lot of weird hypocrisy in this. Robert

26:05

Hugh just being to see the excellent Hamilton in the

26:07

West End. In 250 years time, 2275, which early 21st

26:09

century politician story would make the best musical and

26:16

be playing to 23rd century audiences,

26:19

perhaps a musical comic tragedy? Well,

26:23

heaven knows. I mean, there's lots of people. Every time I see

26:26

a poster for Hamilton, have you been to see Hamilton, by the

26:28

way? It's brilliant. I have. I

26:30

loved it. But every time I see a poster,

26:32

I do think about that question of, you know,

26:34

because we talk so much about legacy

26:37

and the legacy of politicians. And this

26:39

play has become part of his legacy.

26:41

I mean, I suspect that for a

26:43

lot of British people, his is a name

26:45

that is amongst the least known

26:48

of the great, you know, American Sanders.

26:50

And now it's one of the best

26:52

known because of this musical. What

26:55

would make a good musical out of modern policies?

26:58

I think Liz Truss actually, I think what will

27:00

happen with Liz Truss is that she'll be completely

27:02

forgotten. And then historians

27:04

in a couple of hundred years will think, oh, well, there's

27:06

this amazing time in British politics when they

27:08

had this woman who came along and she was prime minister like her.

27:11

Was it three days or two weeks? I can't remember what it

27:13

was. But you should look it up

27:15

on whatever Wikipedia becomes. And people

27:18

say, that would be an amazing musical. We could

27:20

set it like we could have a different song

27:22

for every day that she was prime minister. So

27:24

yeah, I'm going for Liz Truss. And

27:26

obviously she would get a six part on

27:28

the rest of this history, which will

27:30

obviously still be going in 2275. But

27:34

who will be presenting it? They can't both be. Are

27:36

they immortal? They're not.

27:38

They're not. They're not hanging up their beats in the next

27:40

250 years. It'll still be them. Talking

27:43

to Liz Truss, Charlotte Hindle wants to know

27:45

what cost implication is there to the

27:47

taxpayer of having this trust speak nonsense in

27:49

the United States. Am I paying for any

27:51

part of this trip? Well, yes,

27:54

you are in part because ludicrously

27:58

Liz Truss gets. the same former

28:01

Prime Minister allowance as John

28:04

Major, Tony Blair, etc. This

28:06

is the costs that are deemed to

28:08

be reasonable assumptions about work that you

28:10

will carry on doing because you were

28:12

once a Prime Minister. And

28:14

of course, she also has the same level

28:17

of security as some of the

28:20

former Prime Ministers. So up to a

28:22

point, yes, but I suspect somebody else

28:24

is picking up the tab for on

28:26

this. And I'll defend it a little

28:28

bit because I think hard cases make

28:30

bad law. And the principle that Prime

28:32

Ministers get some security support, and

28:35

some financial support makes sense. And there are

28:37

very few premises who last 44 days, but

28:39

you wouldn't want to be changing the whole

28:41

system just because of this letters phenomenon. Do

28:44

they do they every letter should get special

28:47

transportation or not? Probably not. I think

28:49

they could do with it, particularly in my house, a

28:51

lot of letters eating going on. Is

28:53

it true that Lisa, is it true that

28:55

MPs don't have any contracted hours or set

28:57

leave allowance? If so, I imagine this leads

28:59

to a lot of overworking and some notable

29:01

examples of underworking. And look, I

29:04

mean, Lisa has put her finger on something

29:06

that's just true of the whole system. Being

29:09

an MP is not really a job in

29:11

any normal way. There's no job description, there's

29:13

no hours, you know, the even the

29:15

idea of paternity and maternity leave is kind of

29:17

invented and made up. I think I took maybe

29:20

a week paternity leave, but it wasn't really

29:22

leave. And it wasn't in any contract. I

29:25

just said to my constituents, I'm

29:27

going to take a week off to be with

29:29

my baby. Do you feel pressure only

29:31

to have that one week rather than say, I'm

29:33

going to take a few months off? Well, absolutely.

29:36

I mean, absolutely. Because you know, there's another question

29:38

of Clara Bamford saying as a constituent, what can

29:40

you do when your MPs suspended from their party

29:42

not representing your constituency in Westminster? My MPs, Christopher

29:44

Blunt, we feel our voice has been silenced. How

29:46

can we be heard? Sadly, we're not the only

29:48

constituent situation. No, I think my

29:50

constituents would have been completely outraged if

29:53

I took six months off, because they'd be saying, you know,

29:55

how are we going to be represented in Parliament? So, And

29:58

I Don't think it tends to lead to... Under work

30:00

I think M P's have a lot of

30:02

problems I think. Being. A parliament

30:04

contorts your personality brings out the worst

30:06

spits feel per se but their problems

30:09

and not that they don't work. I

30:11

think employees work very hard. Charity

30:13

work, very long hours. I just think. The.

30:16

Problem is to whip the party system,

30:18

the media, the and census called for

30:20

parliament. Means. That a lot about

30:22

work doesn't result in in good results and

30:24

and and I didn't know so you would.

30:27

Sort. Of give a job description or makes it

30:29

a more normal job. I don't think it's really

30:31

a normal job and in Korea were was and

30:33

you one thing you could do that I strongly

30:35

believe in his i think parliament's it's it's much

30:37

less. I think there's a lot of turning up

30:40

on the when there isn't much legislation is not

30:42

much to do. And actually

30:44

a lot of this is

30:46

because David Cameron's and likes

30:48

of fiscal last days he

30:50

invented a very expensive two

30:52

weeks tempo switch. Which

30:57

is just about skating idea I think.

31:00

There are many countries in a world where and

31:02

peace so much less the year and that means

31:04

that I think they can get on with more

31:06

useful stuff. The rest be ruined. My last book

31:09

I wrote about my nephew. Dream.

31:11

You know yes yes yes his sister in a few

31:13

what it has been selected as they become with it

31:15

and must live on the another is not a seat

31:17

that he's like Lewin will is winnable is can close

31:19

all see but it's like a move that the moment

31:21

but it this way of labor going to get a

31:23

majority is going after with. Slope

31:26

the resume ensnare is one.

31:30

He because I said in the book the day he

31:32

was the one that told me I had of way

31:34

to Roman to view the library because my experience was

31:36

always as will close to the top of it. Where

31:38

is he said you know big zone is that? Assure

31:40

me down and. Dandy on the grassroots, not much

31:42

fun them but also because he's i'm you

31:44

beeps tie the family cause soon and and

31:46

I think that that sir the is a

31:48

big factor for anybody in any school could

31:50

live We know that. but I do think

31:52

you do have extra pressure when you're. In.

31:55

parliament and as you said well as you say new

31:57

book as you said many museums and hear the whole

31:59

thing of you know, where do you

32:01

live? How do you how much time you spend here?

32:03

How much time spent there trying to keep on top

32:05

of everything? And I'm assuming in this next

32:07

Parliament, I mean, there are going to be a lot of new

32:09

faces on there So hopefully that will

32:11

produce an energy and a drive Some

32:14

of the changes you want to see but but

32:16

let's try to make a desperate last-ditch attempt with

32:19

them Whatever it is eight months go to the

32:21

election To see if

32:23

we can get one of these parties at least

32:25

to sign up to a proper

32:28

three four week induction

32:30

training Yeah induction training for MPs

32:32

turning up and part of

32:35

that being your stuff about Nolan principles

32:37

and accountability and leadership and making sure

32:39

that people have a

32:41

sense of the moral

32:43

ideas Some ideas of the

32:45

expectation. I mean and I'd love to see it done

32:47

cross party I'd love to see all

32:50

the MPs from all parties hearing

32:52

from the best of the

32:54

cross party MPs Who actually represent

32:56

a more honorable tradition apartment? Get

32:59

them when they're fresh and idealistic and set some

33:01

standards and maybe get them to sign up Why

33:03

not sign up to a voluntary code? I mean I wanted to do

33:05

this when I came in off the expenses And why don't we all

33:07

sign up to a? Voluntary code for

33:10

all of us on what we were going to do on our

33:12

expenses and I bet you had a few people saying Good

33:14

these young whippersnappers come in here. We've never looked before.

33:16

Yeah Okay,

33:19

a couple of questions here on shimmy mabigum

33:21

Anya McCarthy What do you think of shimmy

33:23

mabigum in remaining stateless following the lost appeal

33:25

against the home office? What does this mean

33:27

is it common and Cameron Radcliffe? We've now

33:29

had several years of tabloid government among the

33:31

victims of shimmy mabigum Do you

33:33

think an incoming labor government should will be more compassionate

33:35

in her case? I

33:37

do feel very uneasy about this. I think

33:39

that you know the idea that Regardless,

33:42

I think you you you talked earlier about

33:44

you know bad case bad cases

33:47

making bad law This is

33:49

a young person Whatever

33:51

reason gets caught up in some pretty

33:53

terrible stuff admits to it But

33:55

now is deemed to be

33:57

stateless and can not come back to the

34:00

country where she was a citizen. I

34:02

have problems with this. Yeah, it's part

34:04

of a much bigger problem, isn't it?

34:06

The reason why the Home Office,

34:08

I think under Sajid Javid, and we can talk to him about

34:10

this when we get him on the leading, initially

34:13

made her stateless is that there were lots

34:15

of people who'd been involved with ISIS, of

34:17

which she was one, in

34:19

these camps on the

34:22

Syrian-Iraqi border, who they never

34:24

had enough evidence to prosecute. So they'd said,

34:26

they'd gone out, the government had gone out

34:28

and said, anyone who goes out to join

34:30

ISIS, we're going to lock them up. Obviously,

34:32

Pshimi Bigham went out to join ISIS, and then it

34:34

became clear for the government that she could come back

34:36

to Britain, and nothing would happen to her, because there

34:38

wouldn't be enough evidence that she'd prosecuted, despite the fact

34:40

she'd been connected with this incredibly extreme Jihadi group. So

34:43

the solution that they came up with

34:45

was to make her stateless. And

34:47

it's a little bit reminiscent of the

34:50

contortions around Rwanda and all the

34:52

strange legal sections that they're doing

34:55

around Rwanda. It's

34:57

about governments finding

34:59

that some of the things they want to

35:01

do are difficult to do within the

35:03

legal system, and then coming up

35:05

with stranger and stranger solutions. So I think what's

35:07

happening is the minister is sitting at a table,

35:09

and it's probably in this case, Sajid Javid saying,

35:12

well, surely I can't have her come back to the UK when

35:14

we said anyone who goes off to join ISIS is going to

35:16

be prosecuted. If I can't prosecute her, can

35:19

we just stop her coming back? And eventually somebody's saying, well,

35:21

I suppose you could take her passport away,

35:23

which is what's now been challenged. I think a

35:25

lot of people think that this case was it

35:27

worried about the merits of the case. As I

35:29

understand it, it was about the

35:31

system that was applied. But I

35:34

just think it's pretty hardcore

35:37

to say that you are now

35:40

deemed to be stateless, because the

35:42

same principle should apply, that if

35:44

you don't have the evidence that

35:46

says that they are guilty

35:49

of crime A, crime B, crime C,

35:51

then why should there be such a severe punishment?

35:54

Yeah. And of course, that then leads back to

35:56

why did the government say that it was going

35:58

to prosecute anyone who was a stateless? to

36:00

join ISIS when it turned into an effort to do that.

36:05

Nick Simpson, last week Labour said they would use

36:07

citizens' assemblies, then wrote back on it within hours.

36:09

That seems to happen a lot. Is this part

36:11

of a strategy, floating ideas to see the public

36:13

reaction, or is it a lack of messages or

36:16

maybe indecision on policy? Heartbreaking for me.

36:19

Remember I said last week, I think, that that was the

36:21

thing that was going to get me to vote for Labour.

36:23

Where was the rowing back? This

36:27

is the first I was aware of the rowing back. I know I

36:29

should read the papers more closely, but have

36:31

they said it's not happening? Yeah, a Labour

36:33

spokesman came out and said basically that

36:35

this was an idea of Sue Grey's, that it wasn't endorsed

36:37

by the Labour Party and they wouldn't be going ahead with

36:40

it. Which seemed

36:42

to be very sad because it was a very exciting

36:44

moment. Oh, well, we listen. We

36:46

should keep banging away about it because we both think it's a

36:48

good thing. I suspect

36:50

in that case, it was a lack of,

36:52

well, it can't have been lack of message

36:55

discipline because as I understand it, this came

36:57

from... From the book? From

36:59

the Tom Borman's book where he spoke to Sue Grey and

37:01

she mentioned it. Oh, I

37:03

don't know. I don't know. Anyway, well, that's

37:05

bad if true. Pepper Lucy. Alastair,

37:08

will you please ask Rory to

37:10

come to Shays Pub with the

37:13

British and Irish Student Caucus after he

37:15

gives his talk at Harvard next week?

37:17

Well, I want to be very clear

37:19

on this, Alastair. What do

37:22

you want to be clear about? I

37:25

don't know. No, no, no, Rory, you talk... I want to

37:27

be very clear. I want to be very clear. You talk

37:29

about some nice British and Irish students. They're out there. They're

37:31

probably going to go to your talk. You just have to

37:33

pop in for five minutes, do a couple

37:35

of selfies, say thank you when they say how much

37:37

they love the podcast and ask you what Alastair Campbell's

37:39

really like, which is all they want to care about,

37:41

by the way. On those terms, I'm up for it

37:43

absolutely. All right. Pepper, he

37:46

says yes to five minutes and

37:48

David Gawk, I'm sorry that I haven't been able to get

37:50

the same commitment for an event in Chawleywood

37:53

for the excellent local bookshop. Alastair,

37:56

the final question, question time this week,

37:59

is not... a

38:01

question for us. It's a question that we,

38:03

bizarrely, are supposed to be asking on someone

38:05

else's behalf. And the clue to

38:07

what that question is, is that today is the 29th

38:09

of February. It's a leap year. It

38:11

just comes around once every four years. And

38:13

the question is... The question is

38:15

for Mr.

38:18

Kelly Butler from

38:20

Lucinda Borg. And

38:22

Kelly, Lucinda, would like me to say to

38:24

you, I love you very much.

38:26

Well, she loves you very much. And the

38:29

question is, will you marry me? There you

38:31

go. Oh, well, I hope he says

38:34

yes. So we're low, we're low, because the

38:36

rest is stupid. Anyway,

38:38

Lucinda, it's all of you now. We've done our bit. Over to

38:40

you. Alistair, thank you. You're in

38:42

very good form today. You seem to be very

38:44

cheery and zen-like. I don't know what's going on

38:46

in your life. Yeah, no, I thought you'd be...

38:48

Well, that's weird, because I'm really not. Oh, well,

38:50

maybe when you're... maybe you're just immensely self-controlled. I

38:52

now feel I'm becoming the grumpy one at New

38:54

York. Maybe I should be an actor. Yeah,

38:57

maybe you should be an actor. Yeah, exactly. Well, since

38:59

our revelation, which is going to be followed up soon,

39:01

that we've discovered your twin. But we're not going to

39:03

reveal who your twin is, but it will be revealed

39:05

soon on the media. Yeah, yeah. Good. And if so,

39:07

bye. I

39:12

think he didn't expect that he was

39:14

going to die. This week on disorder,

39:17

he believed that good would triumph over evil

39:19

and that the Putin regime would crumble. Following

39:22

the shocking murder of Alexei

39:24

Navalny, we speak to humanitarian

39:26

advocate and personal friend of

39:28

Alexei's, Bill Browder. We discuss

39:30

the legacy of Navalny's death

39:32

and what we can do

39:34

to continue his campaign for

39:36

justice. I was thinking about

39:39

Socrates. And then, of course, about Jesus. They

39:42

were both willing to die so that their ideas would

39:44

live on. Well, in

39:46

this case, it is living on.

39:48

Navalny's extraordinary courage in facing down

39:51

a dictator. Nobody was as

39:53

brave as he was knowing for sure you're going to lose

39:55

your liberty and you could lose your life. And

39:57

what the West must do now to pattern.

40:00

interview, and I will be back in my trailer.