0:00

Who's that man talking

0:05

in my ear? He's

0:10

rong Burndy. Good

0:13

night everyone, This was Ron

0:16

and another episode of the Run

0:18

Run. What you're introducing the shell? Oh?

0:23

Sorry? Yeah? Is it that

0:25

you, Carolina? Yes, that's me.

0:27

You're staring directly at me in the daylight

0:33

at a rough night. Folks,

0:36

if you're listening, if this microphone is even on,

0:38

I'm I'm gonna give it to you straight.

0:40

I am Unwell, if

0:43

you've never gone through a breakup with a pop star,

0:45

well it's like a normal breakup,

0:47

except you can listen

0:49

to them and google them and wear their wigs

0:52

for hours, hours

0:54

upon hours

0:56

all night. Even listen, I know

0:59

that last episode you and see it broke up on

1:01

air, which was crazy, and it kills

1:04

me. How heartbroken you've been. I

1:06

don't know what you mean. I never said

1:08

I was heartbroken. Save the drama

1:10

for your improv class. Listen, you watched

1:13

the whole series of Gilmore Girls in

1:15

five days. That's eight seasons

1:17

of a one hour show. That where you

1:19

lead, I will follow? Okay,

1:22

um, Well, today we have a famous psychotherapist,

1:25

Esther Perel. She's amazing.

1:27

I think it's perfect timing. Wait, we

1:29

have a guest today. Wait, it's

1:31

it's Esther Parrel. See you

1:34

and I would listen to her podcast over coffee.

1:38

Esther is here today? Is that what you're saying? Yes?

1:40

Yes, should I shower?

1:43

That depends? When's the last time you showered? I

1:46

showered on

1:48

Tuesday? So yesterday? Okay, yesterday

1:50

was Sunday. So you showered about a week ago.

1:54

Yeah, I think maybe that's what happened. Is

1:56

it?

1:57

It's

2:01

over four years ago? This is so

2:04

Laura li Gilmore of me and

2:06

you're my little brainy act daughter. Rory, Rory,

2:09

You're better go to Harvard. Okay,

2:11

I'm gonna help you get up. Okay, a great

2:13

timing. By the way, Carolina, you booked Esther

2:15

Parrel after my long distance pop

2:18

star girlfriend and I broke up. Wow, really

2:20

cool. I'm single. Time

2:23

for me to get into couples canceling. Let's just splash

2:26

water on your face. And have you ever

2:28

played the Gilmore Girls drinking game?

2:31

It's where you watch Gilmore Girls and you

2:33

drink every time. See it doesn't call

2:35

you all right, We'll be back with Esther Parrell

2:37

after this message. Oh oh,

2:40

that's cool. You just threw a bucket

2:42

of water. I'm sorry. It was the only thing we

2:44

could do. You're falling apart. Gosh,

2:48

does anyone to have a hair dryer? And

3:01

we're back with the Ron Bergny Podcast.

3:04

I just want to announce to our listeners

3:06

that Ron has

3:09

splash and water on his face. Yes, we combed

3:11

his hair a fresh blazer.

3:15

He's wearing a woman's medium blazer,

3:18

so it's a little tight, but

3:21

it looks good. It looks I don't mind the look

3:23

at all. No, it looks great. And

3:26

I look like Elizabeth Taylor a national

3:28

velvet. That's a great example.

3:31

Um, and yeah, we're ready to record.

3:34

I think good. No, I

3:36

feel fit as a fiddle, and

3:40

I have to admit and I you

3:42

know me, I don't. I don't admit this

3:44

off. And I'm a little jealous of our guest today. Really

3:47

wow, I do find that surprising. You're

3:50

kind of in different fields. Well it comes down to this

3:52

Carolina. You know those Ted talks, right,

3:55

She's given like a billion of them

3:57

and I haven't done one. That's

4:00

true. And I've made it known to the people

4:02

that at the TED conference, I'd be happy to come

4:04

out and do a Ted talk anytime. And the

4:06

response has been loud and clear,

4:09

repeatedly no. Thanks.

4:11

Well, they cover such different topics, So

4:14

what would your TED talk even be about? Literally

4:16

anything? I mean I told them they could.

4:18

They could pick the subject and I just

4:20

get up there and I'd wing it. There's

4:23

literally thousands of TED talks

4:25

I could give on many subjects. Okay,

4:28

I'm starting to see why maybe you're not getting the response

4:30

you wanted. I mean, I think you need to pick a

4:32

specific topic. Well, I can do that. I'll

4:34

do that right off the top of my head right now. Okay, fine,

4:37

I'm just spitballing here. Um, Barracudas.

4:40

I know, I know a lot of cool stuff about

4:42

Baracutas. Bam TED

4:45

talk on Barracudas, the

4:47

fish with sharp teeth. Now, just

4:49

give me a headset, Mike and let

4:51

me go off. I think that's exactly what they're

4:54

hesitant to do. Really well, then it's

4:56

it's their loss. I mean, think

4:58

about it, Carolina, I would kill

5:00

a TED talk, and you know it,

5:03

right, whatever the subject is, how to fix

5:05

your VCR, being

5:07

a successful arsonist, whatever, it's

5:09

just these Silicon Valet dweebs

5:12

think they're better than me. I don't know if anyone

5:14

needs a VCR right now? And

5:16

wait, are you suggesting a Ted talk about

5:18

being an arsonist ron?

5:20

I don't think that's what they're looking for, and I don't

5:23

think that you should talk about it. Oh

5:25

well, it doesn't matter. Once again, you've completely

5:27

derailed what was supposed to be my guest intro

5:30

and you brought us completely off topic. May

5:32

I introduce our guests today? Please? You brought

5:34

up the whole Ted talk thing. I'm following you. Well,

5:37

let's just drop it. And yes, I

5:39

do know some things about arson, but

5:42

that should be a whole different episode. I don't

5:44

think we should do that. Our guest today

5:46

is well renowned as an expert in

5:49

her field, the study of relationships

5:51

and sexuality.

5:54

You don't have to say it like that. Well

5:57

that's a clinical way. Um. We'll see

5:59

what she said that's appropriate or not. Um.

6:01

She is a psycho therapist, best

6:04

selling author, podcast host.

6:06

I know what that's like, right. And

6:08

in sen she was named as

6:10

one of a hundred Influential Leaders

6:13

by Oprah Winfreyes Super Soul

6:15

one hundred list. Again, I don't

6:17

want to make this about me, but I'm I'm pretty

6:19

sure I almost made the Super Soul one

6:21

d list. I was like, one oh one, Ron,

6:24

you did not make any lists that Oprah

6:26

made. Okay, Carolina, stop, I'm not

6:28

implying our esteemed guest took my

6:30

place on Oprah's Super Soul one hundred

6:33

list by any means, no, no way she

6:35

earned it. It's actually our

6:37

honor to sit down with her today.

6:40

You're absolutely right. I do think my spot

6:42

on Oprah's Super Soul

6:44

one hundred list was taken by the band Imagine

6:46

Dragons. I think that's look

6:49

it up there on the list. I

6:51

understand it's heavy competition. There's

6:53

some amazing people, but come on, you've

6:56

got Ron Burgundy just sitting

6:58

out there with his dick in the wind, and

7:00

then you you pick Imagine Dragons. Call

7:03

me petty if you want, But anyway,

7:06

joining us now is an amazing person

7:09

who I would like to quote because I

7:11

think there's a lot of truth in her words.

7:13

The quality of our relationships

7:15

determines the quality of our lives.

7:18

Those words ring true to me, and they're they're

7:21

from our guests. So if you could just shut

7:23

your apper, Carolina, and

7:25

please welcome to the program, Dr Esther

7:27

Perell. Dr Perell, thank you for joining

7:30

us today. It's a pleasure to be here. But you need

7:32

to take the word doctor out of it. Oh

7:34

should we not? One? Okay, well, let's uh

7:37

who put that in my script? It's

7:40

okay, doesn't think anything away from me? Just as

7:42

a nickname. Can I call you a doctor?

7:45

Doc? Doc perel? It

7:47

sounds like a Remember it

7:50

is not real. It's not real because I cannot

7:52

misrepresent my sin. Well, then let

7:54

me just say Esther, I'm just I'm fascinated

7:56

by your journey. You you grew up an antwer Belgium.

7:59

Correct, You studied in Jerusalem,

8:02

and then you came to the United States for graduate school,

8:05

right, and I believe that's where you fell in

8:07

love with New York City. And

8:09

for our listeners who have never been

8:11

to New York or or Carolina, who

8:13

wouldn't last ten minutes in that town, what

8:16

is it like to fall in love

8:18

with New York City? And

8:20

and what did New York mean to you at that

8:22

time in your life? Okay,

8:24

a little correction. I fell in love with a man

8:27

with New York City. But together we

8:29

came to New York City and the

8:32

best way for me today. But he was not a New Yorker.

8:34

No, not that a Southerner, um

8:37

like as in the Southern United States, as in southern

8:39

United And it was he from Alabama, Atlanta

8:43

or Atlanta. So you fell in love

8:45

with this gentleman. And New York for

8:48

me was basically the one place

8:50

I really wanted to live if I was to stay

8:52

in the US, which I didn't know that I would

8:54

stay. I came for one year. I just didn't use

8:57

my return ticket, and the reason

8:59

being that I think it's a city with a soul.

9:02

I always though there are cities with character and

9:04

cities with soul. Sorry

9:07

that's my phone. And the ones with soul they

9:09

basically reflect your inner state. But

9:11

it's a dirty soul with gum stuck to

9:13

the bartimes. And sometimes when you are

9:16

ecstatic, it just makes you feel like you are

9:18

on top of the world as well. It's both, and it

9:20

reflects the darkest and the most

9:22

luminous sides. But it is a romantic

9:25

place. It's a great city to fall in love with,

9:27

absolutely right. New York is. Also

9:30

it's a it's a great city for heartbreak, wouldn't

9:33

you say. And it's a perfect city

9:35

to be a psychotherapist. Well,

9:37

if you have a broken heart. In New York

9:39

you can identify with every piece of paper

9:42

on the street, and you just feel like you are

9:44

dejected and rejected. And

9:46

in terms of being a therapist, I would say

9:48

that New York is a great place to come with

9:51

a dream, with an ambition, with

9:53

a desire to try out something, with a

9:55

wish to reinvent yourself. It's filled with

9:57

refugees of all sorts.

10:00

Did you just clean up? I

10:02

mean, and your practice just treating New

10:04

Yorkers who are still in constant need of therapy.

10:08

You make a lot of money, right with

10:10

all the New Yorkers. I think

10:12

you have a very misconception of psychotherapy.

10:17

You see when I mean, I happen

10:20

to work in private practice, but many

10:22

of us do not. We

10:24

work in hospitals, we work in clinics. We

10:26

work with people who have very little run

10:30

ye um. If you

10:33

really want lucrative and if you want to make

10:35

money, then doing psychotherapy is

10:37

probably not the best way to do so.

10:39

But if you want meaning inspiration

10:43

as a profession with very little agism,

10:45

actually, because you can practice until

10:47

your brain stops functioning, then

10:51

it is really, you know, dealing

10:53

with the human life. Human psyche,

10:55

the human suffering, the human spirit,

10:58

the human resilience is probably be one

11:00

of the most inspiring

11:02

profession. It has to be rejuvenating in a way.

11:05

Sometimes sometimes it's very lonely. Sometimes

11:08

it's quite isolating. You sit alone

11:10

with people and you absorb a lot,

11:12

a lot of their

11:14

life experiences, and so it's very

11:16

important to be highly supported, highly

11:19

rejuvenated by other things actually

11:22

as well, not just because

11:24

it's heavy to absorb the

11:27

experience for other people. And

11:29

yet there's always a Sabarros

11:31

around the corner, and you can you can go

11:34

and get get energy from from going

11:36

to sabarrows or sitting on a park

11:38

bench. But I like you

11:41

like sabars. Okay, what what do you like the pizza

11:43

with the spicy pepperoni? No,

11:46

I like the flat diet coke flat.

11:48

Yes, yes, that's what I

11:50

like that They don't really

11:52

you can't find it out here and where

11:56

we're talking this place, Los

11:58

Angeles. Yes, thank you, Carolina.

12:01

Um are you at that stage of

12:04

what of memory? Menopause? Oh?

12:06

Men? Memory? No, I have a very

12:09

sharp memory. You forgot

12:11

your first name? I

12:13

did at the beginning of this podcast. I did for just

12:15

a second um, but that

12:18

is also a sign of great intelligence I've read.

12:21

So let me ask you this, what was it

12:23

that sparked you to begin focusing on

12:25

the world of relationships and sexuality.

12:29

You don't have to say it like that. So I

12:31

did relationships long before I touched

12:33

sexuality. But I've thought that

12:36

family systems. Families

12:39

are probably the most complex

12:41

relational system.

12:43

Let me sorry, that's my phone. Don't you just turn

12:45

it onto airpoint mode? Yeah,

12:48

let me let me just do that? And

12:50

it is riveting, unending. It's

12:52

just never twice the same. And

12:55

um, I got very, very interested.

12:57

Instead of just focusing on working with indeed

13:00

usuals, I've wanted to work with individuals

13:02

in their relational systems. And first it was

13:04

families, then it became couples,

13:06

and I realized, I'm endlessly

13:09

fascinating by working with couples because

13:11

it's a it's a system that can be blissful

13:13

or it can be hell. It's

13:16

and everything in between. What two people can

13:18

do to each other, it's just infinite.

13:21

And then gradually I

13:23

got interested in dealing with the subject of sexuality

13:26

because, um well, I

13:28

kind of was very intrigued

13:30

with at the time the Clinton scandal and

13:32

what it meant in terms of how this

13:35

society in the United States addresses

13:37

the subject of sexuality and how different it

13:39

is from many other places.

13:42

And but more importantly,

13:44

I think that sexuality is probably

13:47

in every society, the part where

13:50

the most archaic, rooted and trenched

13:52

traditional views and beliefs are lodged

13:55

is around sexuality. And the place

13:57

that where the most radical progressive change

14:00

take place in a society or in a culture

14:02

is also around sexuality. You wrote

14:04

an article in search of erotic

14:07

intelligence, and that

14:09

was a bit of a career milestone

14:11

for you. Correct. Can you talk

14:13

about that? I was interested in

14:15

America's attitude responses

14:19

towards the subject of sexuality. But there

14:21

is no public health policy

14:23

for adolescent sexuality in the United

14:25

States. Oh sorry,

14:27

I thought it was on airplane mode it obviously

14:31

we're in the middle of an energy I just want to be able

14:33

to have a visual contact with it. Go

14:36

ahead. Continue. In

14:38

Europe, we think that sexuality is natural

14:41

and being irresponsible is the problem,

14:44

and that's what you need to educate for. In

14:46

the United States, sex is seen

14:48

as the risk factor in and of itself,

14:51

and as a result, people are left often

14:53

very ignorant and making an enormous

14:55

amount of mistakes. I was interested

14:58

in why it is that the posterrapy

15:00

feel that I was part of spoke so little

15:03

about sexuality when we know how central

15:05

sexuality is to modern relationships

15:08

and modern love. I was interested

15:10

in the politics of sexuality. I was

15:12

interested in the troubles that

15:14

people have around it. And I just thought

15:16

it is an absolutely unexplored

15:19

terrain. The sexologists don't talk about

15:21

relationships, and the relationship therapists

15:24

talk very little about sexuality, and

15:26

I wanted to create that bridge. You

15:28

know, I am a firm believer in

15:30

talking about sexuality. I mean, way

15:32

back when I was I talked about sexuality

15:36

constantly at nauseam. And

15:38

why did you talk about Well, I just like,

15:40

you know, I'd be at a cocktail party, like is everyone

15:42

having enough sex? And I just wanted to,

15:45

you know, address the elephant in the room.

15:47

And did people gather around you or slowly

15:49

walk to the bar? Exactly? No, I was

15:51

shunned. But you both want to take away the shock

15:53

value of it. Yes, I wanted to, you

15:55

know, not make it such a big deal. But

15:58

it is a deal. It is a

16:00

big deal. It's just that you can have something

16:02

that is beautiful and a big deal or

16:05

something that is shameful, guilty

16:07

inducing, filled with secrecy.

16:10

Okay, I went to the other side.

16:13

I'm just theorizing here.

16:15

But let me ask you this. Do you believe there is

16:17

erotic intelligence on other planets?

16:21

I don't think there's any public scientific

16:23

research to back it up. But I guess what I'm

16:25

asking is, could there be sexy

16:27

aliens out there? I have no

16:30

idea, and ultimately

16:32

I am not necessarily that interested about

16:34

that. Yeah, I'm very

16:36

interested in cultivating erotic intelligence

16:39

here, but let's be very clear. When

16:42

I talk about erotic intelligence, it's

16:44

not about teaching people to have sex

16:46

or better sex. People have done sex

16:48

for centuries and sometimes felt

16:50

nothing. Women all over the world know that.

16:53

What I'm interested in is how do you help people

16:55

experience a sense of aliveness centuries of

16:57

sex? Yes, yes, yes,

17:00

sis when it was a duty and an

17:02

obligation, or when it is or when

17:04

when people can naturally dispose

17:06

of you. There is not much talk about pleasure,

17:09

about excitement, about intimacy, about

17:11

connection. Run

17:14

are you on your phone? M h, no

17:16

listening? So I'm not interested so

17:19

much in sex. I'm interested

17:21

in the poetics of sex, the meaning we give

17:23

to it, what makes it totally human.

17:26

Yes, but back to the aliens, I

17:28

mean, maybe they're just way better.

17:31

Maybe they're better at sex and love than

17:33

us because they haven't advanced alien

17:35

sex. So what, I can't do anything with

17:38

it. I don't know where they are and they haven't come to teach

17:40

me, so I can only rely or the

17:42

government doesn't want us to know. Oh,

17:45

you're in that one. I'm just saying

17:47

you just provocative. I

17:50

watched your Ted talk Rethinking infidelity,

17:53

a talk for anyone who has ever loved,

17:55

and I got a lot out of it. And call

17:58

me old fashioned, but I believe

18:00

infidelity is wrong. It's the ultimate

18:02

betrayal. What what are your thoughts? Infidelity

18:08

has existed since marriage was invented,

18:11

and so to the taboo against

18:13

it, it has been practiced in

18:16

Tao, it's forbidden.

18:19

I only know taboo of the men's colonne or

18:21

is it a female colonne taboo? I

18:25

think it's it's in a marvelous scent. It's

18:27

like a dusky Motels. It is a dusky

18:29

Motels. But it really takes me back. But

18:33

what just to my

18:35

childhood. Um, but having

18:37

an affair, isn't it just it's

18:40

fundamentally so here's

18:42

the thing. Unless you're away on assignment

18:44

right work in news, and it can be a

18:47

real pressure cooker. But here

18:50

here's how I will quickly answer

18:52

you on this one. It

18:54

has been there forever. It's often

18:57

seen as black or white, good or bad, right

18:59

or wrong, and it is a lot more

19:01

complicated than that. It's

19:03

beyond painful, it's beyond confusing.

19:06

It throws entire relationships into

19:08

disarray. And I thought that

19:10

we need to find a way to address it with

19:13

more nuance and more complexity

19:15

than just straight flat out judgmental

19:18

nous that just troys sometimes

19:20

even very good relationships.

19:24

And I wanted to think about the kids.

19:26

I wanted to think about the entire social

19:28

community that surrounds couples. And

19:30

to just go into this

19:32

it's wrong. It's the worst thing that some

19:35

people can do. I wanted to also

19:37

say that a lot of couples

19:39

deal with varieties of relational

19:42

betrayals made

19:45

right classic example,

19:48

that's not the one I'm talking about. I'm

19:50

actually saying something different. I'm saying

19:52

that there is lots of different ways people

19:54

betray each other and

19:56

that it's not just a perpetrator victim

19:59

story. Wow,

20:02

did you hear all of that in the Ted talk? That

20:05

part I missed because you were

20:07

in your childhood? Well, no, because I had

20:10

to run to the bathroom. Yes,

20:13

I made you do that to fulfill you know, I

20:15

and I also had to fill up a big bowl

20:18

of chips pringles.

20:22

Look, can I get personal with you for

20:24

a moment. That's what people do with I'm

20:27

recently out of a relationship and

20:30

it ended mutually on good terms. We are

20:32

we're both were very mature about

20:34

it. And here's a bit about us

20:36

too successful driven And

20:39

I don't know if this complicates it even more,

20:41

but it's a fact. We're both of

20:44

us are famous people. Fame was

20:46

involved. I was, I was in a celebrity

20:48

couple. Okay, you might want to ask this privately

20:50

off the air. No, No, it's fine. Everyone knows that I

20:52

was dating the international pop Starcia

20:55

and I don't know what it was esther,

20:58

But we really, we really connect. There

21:00

was a balance we brought each

21:02

other and the only problem was our schedules.

21:05

Do do you have any advice for those who find

21:07

themselves in a long distance relationship.

21:12

If you're going to be in a long distance relationship,

21:14

you want to mark time differently since

21:16

you don't have the every day to come home

21:18

later. They contact, they contact

21:20

the regularity. So what so you

21:22

you create a different architecture

21:25

of time in the relationship where you meet.

21:27

It's very intense during a few days,

21:29

sometimes the week, the two and then you

21:32

are a part. I think sometimes

21:34

the most important thing is not to have the space

21:36

in between, the dead space, but

21:38

to find a way to make that remain

21:41

vibrant in the relationship. And that means

21:44

not that you have your cameras on where

21:46

both people are in the kitchen talking about

21:48

you know, so no no camera

21:51

crews following you in your day to day if you

21:53

can help it. No, it's I

21:55

think actually letter writing is way

21:57

more powerful. Letter

21:59

writing the lost art of how

22:01

people used to sit to take

22:03

a letter, open it and immerse themselves

22:06

in it and spend time with another person

22:08

who's not there but were so immediate and

22:10

palpable at the same time. But what if you don't

22:12

know how to write in cursive

22:17

my letter it's chicken scratch type

22:21

type of way. Type of ways. So written

22:24

is very powerful, but type of way to

22:26

go and send an email, but it is

22:29

there's something about writing and

22:31

about sitting with someone's words

22:33

that kind of enter you like that that is

22:36

extremely powerful for long distance

22:38

relationships. When

22:40

when we finally got to see each other, it

22:43

was so white hot the passion

22:45

we missed each other, Yes, but you had

22:47

to imagine so many things alone that when

22:50

the other thing that when seeing each other

22:52

did not manifest according to your dreams

22:54

and expectations, then it became big disappointments.

22:58

You nailed it, because everybody

23:00

is alone, they're thinking, when I'll see you, this is what's going

23:02

to happen. This is what's going to happen, and then they see

23:04

the real person and if that doesn't happen,

23:06

then they feel like there's such a gap between the She'd

23:09

be like, why do you leave the toilet seat up? And I'm like what, because

23:13

yeah, that was a common argument that

23:16

there our fight. Isn't

23:19

that a terribly boring thing?

23:21

That this is what it comes down to, the toothpaste

23:23

and toilet It's

23:26

so banal. I

23:28

don't know if you can judge it. It's just what we was

23:31

our trigger, the toilet seat thing, failing

23:33

in the ball is a terrible feeling. But

23:36

you know, this is where I would say to

23:38

you, one of the most important ways to

23:40

diffuse absurd arguments

23:43

is the humor, rather than

23:45

taking the toilet seats so literal that

23:47

this is a sign that you would fly into

23:49

such a rage. I take a sledgehammer

23:51

and destroy the toilet. It looks

23:54

like you want your toilet seat down. Fine, then

23:56

you'll have no toilet, and now you have

23:58

no relationship. I'm

24:01

toilet. I can't do better. You know, I'm

24:03

not totally over it with Cia. I'll be honest,

24:06

I'm a wreck. And I

24:08

mean we we were intellectual equals.

24:11

Say that. I still don't know how it was

24:13

a thing that you were dating Cia. Oh come

24:15

on, Carolina, grow up,

24:18

um doc,

24:21

I've got such a rigorous schedule recording

24:23

this podcast, and and see it was

24:25

also very busy with touring and shooting music

24:28

videos and recording hit songs and remixes,

24:30

not to mention the animal rights activism.

24:33

But I'm here working night and day

24:35

on this podcast. We record once a week

24:37

for maybe an hour, and I just wish we

24:39

could have been in each other's lives more.

24:42

Um So, do you

24:44

think there's a chance I could still patch things up

24:46

with Cia. We had so much

24:48

in common. If you were to

24:51

patch things up with your

24:54

girlfriends, Yes, it would

24:56

require international recording Starcia.

24:59

Yes, yes, ya, if you would be if

25:01

you want, here's the first thing. Instead

25:03

of going into all the grievances and

25:05

all the things that she did that annoyed you,

25:07

give chocolate no, No,

25:10

start by doing basically an

25:12

accountability of where you think

25:14

you wish you had been better, where

25:16

you think that you went wrong, where

25:19

you hope that she remembers

25:21

certain things that are also dear to you, and

25:24

I think reconciliation if you're

25:26

going in order to finally get her to

25:28

agree and acknowledge to all the things

25:30

that you have been complaining about all bad.

25:34

So you have to ask yourself, do I want

25:36

to reconnect or do I want to be right? Oh?

25:39

I already know the answer. Okay,

25:42

well then you know it's

25:46

never difficult to be right, but you

25:48

will be right and alone. If

25:52

you want to be with her, you have

25:54

got to be able to take responsibility

25:56

for your part rather than just pointing

25:58

finger at her. Yeah. That's the big

26:01

issue in couples is that it's such an

26:03

incredibly tempting blame system.

26:05

Sometimes it really is a two way street until

26:08

it is a one way street. Okay,

26:11

let's just shift gears. Um. Now,

26:13

Carolina is probably going to

26:15

be mad at me for this, but cut

26:18

it off. But I think it'd be a waste of

26:20

her talent if I didn't ask you while while

26:23

you were sitting with us, Esther, if I was.

26:25

I was recently going through Carolina's

26:27

purse because I thought she was stealing

26:30

from Are you serious? Caroline?

26:34

I was wrong. I was wrong. You

26:36

hadn't stolen the five dollars. I

26:39

found it in my blazer. Pardt Why would I steal five

26:41

dollars? And I don't know, but

26:44

I did read a bit of your diary. Okay,

26:46

you have crossed a line here that I do not

26:48

know you can walk back from. That's a total invasion

26:51

of Let me finish, please let me. I'm

26:53

about to compliment you now,

26:56

Esther. Carolina has written what I think is some

26:58

incredible erotic poetry that is

27:00

for a writing class I am taking. And

27:02

it's private, but it shouldn't be private.

27:04

You've got serious talent. And

27:07

I was going to ask Esther if she would

27:09

take a look at it and pass it along

27:11

to her publisher. How what I would like to take a

27:13

look at what. I have a

27:15

podcast as well. It's called Housework,

27:17

Housework, Yes, And in that podcast,

27:19

I would welcome to people like you, partners,

27:23

colleagues, co founders, writers

27:26

of erotic poetry. Sure, yes,

27:29

indeed. And then I would look at

27:31

the relationship between the two of you, and

27:34

and I would also look at the relationship

27:38

that exists inside each of you, the relationship

27:40

history that makes you go and open

27:43

her purse, that makes you go

27:45

and look, I was wrong. That's

27:47

not the point. The point is not just a way

27:50

that you were right or wrong. The point is what drove

27:52

you to not ask her

27:54

first? You've worked with her for so long, and

27:57

what made you think that you needed to take

27:59

this up on your own rather than checking

28:01

in with her first? Because she speaks around

28:03

sometimes because you come with

28:06

a and maybe you come with a predisposition

28:08

towards suspicion, even when there is no

28:10

reason to accept your own history,

28:13

but not the current situation between

28:15

you and her. If you're missing five

28:17

dollars, let's put it back

28:19

on you. Yes, aren't you going to probably

28:22

know? The first thing I think of is what oh,

28:24

I always lose things. I actually

28:27

tend to reflect to refer it back to myself.

28:30

And some of us are more inclined to

28:32

put instantly put the flashlight

28:34

on us, and some of us are more inclined to instantly

28:37

look for where we can blame people

28:39

on the outside est. I want

28:41

you to be really honest with me. I just

28:43

was. But yeah, I'm sorry, Yes, yes

28:46

she was. Okay, yes, you're right.

28:48

Tell me, Carolina Running and I have a

28:50

professional relationship, at least as

28:52

professionals he's capable of. Is

28:54

this thank you? Is this podcast

28:56

is functional and possibly detrimental to my

28:59

mental health? Right for the jugular?

29:01

Carolina, Okay,

29:03

I'm sorry. Look, we clearly have some things

29:05

we need to work on. But do

29:08

you know how much I respect you. You went through my purse

29:10

because you thought I stole five dollars, but you

29:12

didn't. You didn't,

29:15

that's the good news true. And

29:17

you're also one of the best people I've ever shared

29:19

a microphone with. That's nice. Do

29:21

you know how long I've been doing this work, Carolina,

29:24

did you ever ask yourself,

29:27

not just if she did or if she didn't steal

29:29

it, but on what basis

29:32

you took it upon you to go into

29:34

her stuff. And where

29:36

that permission that you gave yourself came

29:39

from? That you said, I can, I just, I'm

29:41

allowed to? Well, I must, I

29:43

just I kind of went blind in that moment. And

29:46

what blinded you is the question?

29:48

I ask you, what made you at that moment

29:50

not think about your relationship with

29:52

her, the collaboration that you've had,

29:54

how much respect you have for her, All

29:56

of that went out the window in the moment. It

29:59

was quicker than a bus ride to Vegas. You

30:01

know, I just

30:03

just the just the pure anger

30:06

that five dollars was missed, that someone had

30:08

just swiped it from me. This

30:10

ever happened to you before? By the way, he's

30:12

gone, asked him,

30:16

he's gone through other people's stuff. But the

30:18

question is, have I gone through other people's stuff?

30:20

No? Have you? Have you been robbed

30:22

before in a way that made you feel

30:25

Because I've been robbed

30:27

in more than one way, maybe I

30:29

therefore can just go. And

30:32

I have thought I had been robbed

30:35

countless times, and it turns

30:37

out every time I was not robbed. Yeah,

30:40

you've gone through a lot of coats and coat

30:43

rooms at parties. Why

30:45

don't you say, well, because

30:47

I've I've misplaced like my keys

30:50

and things like that, and I thought, oh, maybe when I met

30:52

the person, I possibly put my keys

30:54

there and wallets

30:56

and stuff like that. I'm not a thief if

30:58

we were. No, I don't think of you as

31:01

a thief at all. I think of you actually

31:03

more what happened to this guy

31:07

or what happened to him? Oh

31:09

yes, and what happened to you even maybe

31:11

a long time ago. That just the

31:14

sense that things will be taken

31:16

away from you by the people

31:18

that you trust and that you care about. The most

31:21

dark parrel cut into the bone

31:23

here. You know. I

31:26

don't think of you as as evil or as

31:28

it's just you're going in there with

31:32

you know, just a sense of panic and

31:35

a sense of excitement. Though

31:37

that's thrilling to go through someone's belongings. I'm

31:39

not gonna lie. There's a little it's

31:42

erotic. It's erotic a

31:44

little. Yes,

31:47

um, interesting,

31:50

Well, Jeff. Siblings Do

31:53

I have siblings? I

31:55

have a brother and a sister back

31:57

in Iowa. Yes, yeah,

32:00

I don't see them as much as yes,

32:02

I would like. And you a number I

32:04

am number one noh

32:07

in birth yesh birth

32:09

order I'm the youngest.

32:12

Yeah, and they were

32:14

much older than me and supposed to pick me up from school.

32:16

A lot of times. I had a walk the three miles home, so

32:18

they would forget a lot of times. But

32:21

that's just that's just the way it was. You

32:23

know, I didn't think twice about it. No,

32:25

you didn't think twice about it. But you know, we have this

32:28

amazing thing called explicit memory

32:30

and implicit memory. The implicit

32:32

memory is the way that your body remembers how you

32:34

had to fight for everything and make sure that you don't

32:36

get left out and you don't get forgotten, and nobody

32:39

takes something that belongs to you. Well,

32:43

shure, that's

32:45

sometimes what happens. That's that's what

32:47

bubbles, bubbles to the surface. Well,

32:51

it bubbles in this kind of unconscious

32:53

way, right, that's where you suddenly

32:55

go into her stuff to check if

32:58

she took the five dollars, didn't think.

33:00

Thing is that we all have these invisible

33:02

forces that shaped the way our

33:04

relationships at work take place, the way

33:06

we communicate, where we deal with conflict,

33:09

you know, and this is one of those moments. How do we

33:11

get rid of these invisible forces?

33:14

The first thing is you get aware of them.

33:16

You realize it because if you keep repeating

33:19

she but you didn't take it, you didn't take it, you can

33:21

see you are you know, then you don't spend

33:23

your time thinking about what was this about

33:25

me? I mean me and me and the coat tracks

33:27

and the bucks of

33:29

other people to the flame of conflict at

33:32

the end of the day. I don't

33:34

know. I love to joust, you know, you

33:36

like the flame of conflict, or you like the relief

33:38

that comes right after we

33:43

were prepared to take that I

33:45

can't resist. So

33:48

this is what it's like. This is a this is

33:50

a slice of life. This is sys

33:52

you in my office, or

33:55

you in how his work or you and where should

33:57

we begin this

34:00

where you are actually for a minute

34:02

not going over to her, and you just say, okay,

34:05

let me think about what was going before I

34:07

rum to the purse. Take a beat. Maybe

34:10

this isn't the best decision. Maybe

34:12

check my coat pocket first, yes,

34:16

or maybe ask oh,

34:19

you work with so you know her, she's

34:21

right there every day with you. Ask her? Why

34:23

are you taking it all upon you? Can we

34:26

do some role playing here? Okay,

34:28

Carolina? Can I ask you a questions? I'm

34:30

missing five dollars? Did

34:33

you happen to take it from me? No, not a

34:36

question. That's not a question. That's

34:38

a statement with a question mark. That's

34:40

an accusation that's implied. A

34:43

question is a question, Carolina.

34:45

Sure. A question means that you have to be able to

34:47

tolerate the unknown in the moment, rather

34:52

than trying to assure what you already. Have

34:54

you seen five dollars lying around anywhere?

34:56

Is that better? Much better? Okay? No,

34:59

I haven't really, not

35:01

anywhere, really, not anywhere,

35:03

like, not in your purse. All

35:05

right, you've lost it? Go

35:08

back. I'm missing something. I'm

35:10

worried. I'm scared. I need

35:12

them. I'm not sure what I've done. Can

35:15

you help me? Carolina?

35:19

Um, I'm scared that I've lost

35:21

five dollars? Can

35:23

you help me? Will gladly help you look

35:25

for it? Have you been?

35:28

Shall we retrace your steps? Yeah,

35:31

let's look. And I've made a list of five

35:33

people that I think might have taken it, and

35:35

you're near the top of the list. You

35:38

can't resist, you know,

35:40

I'm just being logical. No, you're not logical.

35:42

When I look around the room, it's the logic of

35:45

fear. It's the logic that can't tolerate

35:47

thinking that you made a mistake, so you have to blame

35:49

others. It's the logic of deflection.

35:52

But it's not. But I don't make that many mistakes.

35:55

That are you of all oh

35:58

twenty local Emmy's later, he is,

36:02

does that make sense? I would

36:04

probably say to him something like,

36:07

I know you hate to make mistakes.

36:10

I know that when you lose something, it just

36:12

totally throws you. And if you could find

36:14

the culprit right away and

36:17

just acknowledge with him and then let's retrace

36:19

your step, it's a good way of anchoring

36:21

someone and just say, you know, let's go

36:24

think a moment with me before you just

36:26

like through the arrow and

36:29

just stop him and anchor him.

36:32

I know you are

36:35

usually upset

36:38

when you're completely wrong. I

36:40

don't know what's going on with your brain. You're

36:43

insane. You rule my life

36:45

and you drive me crazy. This work

36:48

atmosphere is suffocating. I feel

36:50

like I'm underwater. How about this that

36:53

was? Look? How about this

36:55

Carolina? I seem to be missing five

36:58

dollars. I don't know what happened to you.

37:01

Can I borrow five dollars until I find

37:04

the five dollars that I lost. I

37:06

don't have five dollars to lend you a

37:09

liar. I

37:12

long are you two working together? That ain't gonna

37:14

last about six years, but it's

37:16

felt like a million yes, yes, yes,

37:19

can't wit and can't without exactly

37:22

Thank you, Thank you, Ebony

37:24

and Ivory. No, too afraid

37:27

and too immature to actually really

37:29

grow up, and too afraid and

37:31

too immature to leave and to be alone. Similar

37:33

to a stable genius, very stable genius.

37:36

You are that stable I am.

37:38

I came up with that phrase with the emphasis on very

37:44

um. I just wrote

37:47

a very interesting blog about trust

37:49

in the workplace that I think I would recommend

37:51

to you, especially because of your inborn

37:54

suspicion towards Caroline. Well, if

37:56

we have time, maybe is that count

37:58

on your website esra params separal dot

38:00

com. It's the newsletter and the blog and

38:03

I explore every time. Right

38:05

after this conversation, that will have at least two

38:08

stories. Not only is it on your your

38:10

website, but you were also on Oprah's

38:12

Super Soul one hundred list with

38:14

imagined dragons. I don't know if they made

38:16

it and not me, Ron

38:19

Burgundy, not you, Ron Burgundy, he's

38:21

a little upset. He feels like he was snubbed

38:23

from Oprah's Super Soul on hundred list.

38:26

But that's something else that you could explorence that feeling

38:28

of loss, lost, feeling left

38:30

out, undeserving,

38:33

feeling jealous. Oh I don't I

38:35

feel like I deserve um

38:37

looks not

38:40

only that you deserve, you actually feel entitled,

38:43

entitlement. That's a big word

38:45

that in the work

38:48

like I have, you deserve nice things

38:50

and recognition. You said

38:52

that you didn't want to come in today like Oprah's

38:55

Super Soul one hundred list. Would

38:58

you like me to put you on my list? That

39:00

does not exist yet? But if I

39:02

mean, it's not a big deal, but yes,

39:05

it'd be great. Thank you.

39:07

You be on any list, any list

39:09

works that you feel that your matter and you exist.

39:11

Okay, Estra Parrel.

39:14

Unfortunately we're out of time right

39:16

now, and I want to thank you

39:18

so much for joining us today. Thank

39:20

you so much. Also, I think I'm going to call Sia

39:23

to see if I can work things out. And if

39:25

I get her voicemail, should I do the normal thing and just

39:27

keep calling back again and again, leaving

39:30

voicemails all night long. Sia.

39:33

I've been thinking, and I think I

39:35

would love for us to have a conversation

39:37

or for me to have an opportunity to speak

39:39

with you and her together, as

39:43

I would like it very much if we could meet.

39:46

If we don't, I would I would just like you

39:48

to know that a letter will be coming. Okay,

39:51

and I wish you all well. Sprel

39:54

everyone, thank you, Thank you so much, my

39:56

pleasure. Thank you for your wisdom and your insight. And

40:00

it looks like Carolina and I

40:02

have a lot of work to do. We

40:04

gotta dig deeper. We gotta dig deeper.

40:07

Um mostly on her side. It's

40:10

the Ron Burgundy Podcast. Will be right back after

40:12

this. Oh gosh, his phone

40:24

and we're back with the Round Burgundy Podcast.

40:27

Well, esther, Perel's

40:29

a genius, but I'm still

40:32

single. What did you think was going to

40:34

happen in that session? Well, I was under

40:36

the impression that she would give me a crystal

40:38

or or say some spell.

40:40

I don't know. But if you noticed, my eyes

40:43

were on my phone the entire time

40:45

and Sea did not text

40:47

or call. That's true, you checked

40:49

your phone at least ten times during the interview,

40:52

but it was buzzing like crazy. It was kind of

40:54

it was kind of rude. Actually, the worst is when you're

40:56

waiting for sea to call, but it's just eight

40:59

missed calls from your uncle with

41:01

dementia. Yeah,

41:03

I hear that. I have to move

41:05

on. There just has to be more women in

41:07

the world. There are more women in the world.

41:10

There are billions, and I have to stop watching

41:12

Gilmore Girls. I thought you

41:14

finished all the seasons. I started watching them

41:16

all over again. Yeah, so

41:18

I've got to stop, that is what I mean. I've

41:21

started going to gyms and paying them to change

41:23

all the TVs to the Gilmore Girls just so

41:25

I can watch Gilmore Girls on twenty

41:28

TVs at once. What why? It's

41:30

just comforting you're

41:32

going through a pop star breakup.

41:35

I don't know if it helps with everything, but if

41:37

Cia or Adele breaks up with you, then

41:40

Gilmore Girls is streaming on Netflix.

41:43

I feel good withinding our episode

41:45

with a plug for Gilmore Girls show that has been

41:47

off the air for over a decade. Oh

41:50

and if you can catch Rocketman

41:52

just in time for Awards season.

41:55

Who knows? Did I just sweep? This

41:58

is Ron Burgundy on

42:01

the Ron Burgundy Podcast. The

42:09

Ron Burgundy Podcast is a production of

42:11

I Heart Radio. I'm Ron

42:13

Burgundy, the host, writer and executive

42:16

producer. Carolina Barlow is

42:18

my co host, writer and producer.

42:21

Our producer is Nick Stump. Our

42:23

talent coordinator is Anna Hostian

42:26

writers are Andrew Steele and Jake vogel

42:28

Nest. This episode was engineered, mixed,

42:31

and edited by Nick Stunt. Until

42:33

next time, this is Ron Burgundy