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0:49

Hello Ruckers. There's no time to lose this week

0:52

with much to discuss so let's get on with

0:54

it. Sale and Saracen's made the Premiership final.

0:56

Stormers and Munster, Munster

0:58

not Leinster, made the URC final. We've

1:01

got Champions and Challenge Cup finals and loads

1:03

else going on. Will Keller here. Joining

1:06

me in the studio is The Times' Bryn

1:08

Terfel. Elgin Alderman.

1:10

Elgin, you alright? Where were you this week? I've

1:12

heard you were singing. I

1:14

was singing. I have been singing this week. I was at

1:16

Jamie Roberts' testimonial dinner last

1:19

week. We were singing just a few introductory

1:21

pieces while all the famous rugby stars were turning

1:27

up to raise lots of money for Jamie Roberts'

1:29

chosen charity. And then as soon

1:31

as Martin Bayfield came up to begin proceedings

1:34

we were turfed out and had to leave. But we had

1:36

a lovely time while we were there. Jamie was a very

1:39

gracious host, came and said hello to all the members

1:41

of the choir. So it was good fun to be there. Obviously we

1:43

were happy just to be there for any part of it. I

1:45

heard you missed Stereophonics because they were there. Yeah

1:47

sadly we weren't there. We

1:49

warmed up the stage for the Stereophonics

1:52

and then we left it to them thereafter.

1:54

But no, it was a great evening and by all accounts

1:56

a very successful evening and raised a lot of money for charity.

1:59

farmers on the line from our Scottish studios.

2:02

Mark, are you an operatic singer?

2:04

Where are you on that? Probably

2:06

best that I don't give any evidence either way, frankly.

2:09

After 10 pints, you're brilliant, I've heard. Indeed,

2:12

yes, yes. As with most things. So

2:15

how's things, everyone getting excited up

2:18

your way with Glasgow in the Challenge Cup

2:20

final on Friday? Yes, as I was telling you

2:22

there before we came on, I'm in a broom cupboard

2:24

at Scottsdale as we speak preparing for

2:26

our first Access of the Week, head of the Challenge Cup

2:28

final on Friday. As you see, a big,

2:31

big excitement here. Only the second

2:33

time a Scottish team has been in our European final,

2:35

first time for Glasgow. So Newgland being

2:38

broken all round and hopefully they can continue

2:40

that by actually bringing home the trophy. Perfect.

2:42

Well, we'll get on to that and loads more because we're

2:44

going to have Dan Bigger, friend of the pod coming

2:47

in hot from Toulon, Glasgow's opponents. We'll

2:49

also talk about the Premiership semi-finals,

2:51

a bit of URC semi-finals as well.

2:53

And as ever, we will

2:56

name God or Goddess of the Week with a bit of Champions

2:58

Cup final preview in there as well. But we've

3:00

got loads to do, so why don't we get on with it,

3:02

starting with the Premiership semi-finals.

3:11

OK, so, Premiership semi-finals, we have

3:14

the final we probably predicted

3:16

a few weeks out. Sale made

3:18

it and Saracen's made it, 1v2.

3:21

And I'm enjoying the

3:23

fact that my stat is still alive

3:25

that the third place team has never won the title.

3:28

So that lives another year. But where should we start? Should

3:30

we start with Saracen's? To me, it

3:32

felt like every single Saracen semi-final

3:34

pretty much ever. There was a one anyway, winning

3:37

about 30-odd, 15-odd. What did

3:39

you make of it, Elgin? Yeah, I mean, with the exception of

3:41

obviously that famous Henry Slade kick to the

3:43

corner when Exeter just nabbed at the

3:45

end, you do just tend to expect Saracen's to

3:48

have their way with semi-finals as they often have in

3:50

the late 2010s before they

3:52

kind of, well, before they were knocked out of the league

3:55

very briefly. But yeah, I mean, it did go

3:57

sort of as

3:58

you'd expect, you know, Northampton. and you look

4:01

at the table and I think only Newcastle conceded

4:03

more tries than them this season. You do expect

4:06

teams in the top four to have really tight defences. We

4:08

saw Harlequin's buck that trend

4:10

when they conceded, I think, 30 more tries

4:12

than the other three teams in the top four. But by

4:14

and large, you do get the tight championship

4:17

winning teams are the ones that

4:19

defend manfully for 80 minutes. And

4:22

Saracen's did that yet again.

4:24

But in addition to that, you had some excellent

4:26

attacking player. You had Owen Farrell

4:29

running the show from number 10 in

4:31

the way that a lot of he has a lot of detractors

4:33

who regard to being quite a dour, boring

4:35

fly off. But actually, he makes a very good attacking

4:38

Saracen's team tick in many ways. So

4:40

yeah, there weren't many surprises. And undoubtedly,

4:42

they will go into the final as huge favourites.

4:44

Yeah, it was funny what we were talking about this off air before

4:47

because having watched that, I wasn't at the game.

4:50

But I was watching it on telly because I went to the sale

4:52

one. And after it finished, I just was a bit

4:55

thinking, I don't know, these semi finals are not brilliant.

4:58

The top two teams often

4:59

win them. They're never that close. And I don't

5:01

know, is there an easier way of getting to

5:03

the inevitable 1v2 final? But then

5:06

up at sale,

5:07

it was epic. And we'll get onto that in a second. But

5:11

we should deal first with the son

5:13

of Scotland, Sean Maitland.

5:15

Did you see that, Mark? That sort of rogue,

5:18

I don't know. He jumped without really looking

5:21

where he was going and smacked George Furbank,

5:23

who had a serious bang to the heads. Quite

5:25

early on in the game as well in Carl Dixon looked

5:27

desperate not to brand his too

5:29

dark a colour of card. So what did you make of that,

5:31

Mark? Well, as we all know, the

5:35

time that these incidents occur in the game shouldn't have

5:37

any influence. But you can't help but think that it

5:39

did in this case. And I

5:41

must have quite an interest as being a lifelong president

5:43

of the Sean Maitland

5:44

Fan Club. So I

5:46

do think he was a lucky boy. And

5:49

it's very much unlike him because, you know, he

5:52

judges those things almost

5:55

without field to perfection, as interventions

5:57

here. Got that one wrong.

5:59

see why Saints were awfully miffed

6:02

that they didn't result in a greater penalty. Yeah, it's

6:04

that funny one isn't it? Because you sort of think

6:06

if Saracen's had him sent off early

6:09

on, probably would have made a more interesting game. It's

6:11

that oh cards ruin games thing which sometimes

6:13

actually they might have improved it but there we go. So

6:16

Saracen's won. And then I think he was going the tries. Yeah,

6:18

well exactly yeah that was the galling thing.

6:20

I think the second one came when he probably would have come

6:23

back on if he'd been yellow but two

6:25

tries. Class it always happens like that, doesn't it? But

6:27

then so I went up to sale on

6:29

Sunday and I don't know maybe

6:32

I should have tapped into this before but I

6:34

kind of wasn't expecting it to be as absolutely

6:36

raucous as it was. It was amazing. We

6:38

turned up and you guys know you go

6:40

to a game and you

6:41

always it's a slight struggle to find the

6:43

right entrance. And this time

6:45

it was a struggle because there's so many people in the

6:47

way. Every time we go up to sale

6:50

it's largely a bit soulless and a bit kind of I

6:52

don't know understated and they've had

6:54

so many problems over the last decade or so trying

6:56

to get people in there. But it was a full house

6:59

to the point where

7:01

they didn't really know what a full house was. Like

7:03

how many people that is because they've basically never got

7:05

close to it really. They

7:07

had about 10,000 in for the Leicester game

7:09

around Christmas where they smashed them about

7:12

40 points when Wigglesworth had just taken

7:14

over. But this time there were more people

7:16

there and it helped that about 2,000 Tigers

7:19

fans came up the road. But outside

7:22

the ground beforehand there were about four deep waiting

7:24

for the buses to come in. They had blue

7:26

flares going mad.

7:29

Atmosphere was amazing. Everyone kind of just took their

7:31

seats with about an hour to go before kickoff.

7:33

It was just awesome and then I just

7:36

thought George Ford was exceptional.

7:38

Just lovely kicks into the corners

7:40

and the

7:41

northern boys chasing them Aaron Reed

7:43

and Tom Roebuck and Joe Carpenter. What did you make of

7:45

it when you were watching it? The

7:48

loveliest moment for me was it didn't

7:50

lead to a try on the end but there was just that

7:53

little delayed pass that George Ford gave.

7:55

It was one of I think two or three he did during the game. That

7:57

just brings the defender on to him and there's

7:59

a

7:59

as an attacker is coming round. I

8:02

think it was Anthony Watson out wide. He just went

8:04

to the men out wide, and just a lovely delayed

8:06

pass, the type of thing you see George Ford, you see Marcus

8:08

Smith do when he's at his best. And he just sent Roebuck

8:10

through the middle. In the end, he couldn't quite

8:13

get the offload away to Aaron Reed out wide. But

8:15

it's just those delayed passes that make

8:17

George Ford, again, probably a bit

8:20

too maligned as an attacking

8:22

force. And again, obviously, he's

8:24

not been in the running for England in recent

8:26

years, much maligned. But again, if England

8:29

had

8:29

George Ford that fly off, I don't think it would be

8:32

any bad thing. They've got two great options

8:34

in Ford and Farrell, and we're going to see them

8:37

coming up against each other hopefully in a final. Yeah,

8:39

he tried to dampen that down, that battle between

8:41

himself and Farrell. When we spoke

8:43

to him afterwards, sort of giving the quip of like,

8:46

oh, it's just me against him, is it? But

8:48

yeah, that's going to be great fun. And when

8:51

we've seen them before, because 2015 was Bath Saracens, and

8:53

then last year was obviously, it ended up

8:55

being the Freddie Burns final, because George Ford went

8:57

off early, but that was Lester versus Saracens. So now he's having a

8:59

third crack with

8:59

a third different team in this

9:02

many final appearances. Yeah, and I don't

9:04

know. We love a narrative, don't we, Mark? But

9:07

I think us who cover England a bit

9:09

more than other teams, that who's going

9:11

to the World Cup as the 10s narrative is going to keep

9:13

us going

9:14

all summer, isn't it? I mean, it's certainly

9:16

going to be Farrell as the captain, and

9:18

I'm sure Ford will go. But do

9:20

you pick Smith as well in a 33? That's

9:24

going to keep us busy, isn't it, for the next few months? No, indeed. I

9:27

was keeping an eye there as well on two guys that

9:29

have been quite surprised haven't

9:32

ended up in Gregor's, Gregor Townsend's army

9:34

of imports and inverted commas.

9:37

Tom Roback, who

9:39

comes from the same bony Highland city that

9:41

has been in my nest as myself. Oh, yeah.

9:44

And Gus Warr, who's worn both jerseys

9:46

at age grade levels. So I very much thought we might see one of those

9:48

in the next few months. We'll

9:52

see one of those in Gregor's World Cup training

9:54

squad. We know how he loves a curveball, but

9:56

no, it was actually quite a dull squad by his standard.

9:59

Yeah.

9:59

have done excellently well in

10:02

what looks really impressive

10:04

machine that every time I see a shoulder,

10:06

it just all looks so slick both

10:09

on either side of the ball and delighted for

10:11

them to finally be back into

10:13

the big time. Yeah, this might be a bit of

10:16

a, I don't know, behind the curtain, a mediary

10:18

point to make, but I think I just have

10:20

loved this. We've had sales players

10:23

on the rack this season, I feel like their

10:25

media department and their marketing team are

10:27

just getting it. They really need

10:29

to

10:30

sell themselves and it clearly

10:32

works. I mean, sold out the AJ

10:34

Bell Stadium, which they haven't done for ages properly

10:36

and their whole Northern Rugby Matters

10:38

campaign, everyone had t-shirts on, it

10:41

was all lined up and they've got Northern

10:43

lads in the back line and in the pack with

10:45

a few Afrikaners obviously as well, which helps,

10:47

but it just seemed to be getting it that

10:50

they can't be quiet up there. You've got to keep

10:52

shouting about it. And you saw their old coach

10:54

Steve Diamond in the week, who's up your way, Mark

10:56

now in Edinburgh, saying how much of a disgrace

10:58

it was that no sale players got major awards

11:01

at the Premiership Rugby dinner the other

11:03

day. But I don't know, I just think they're growing

11:05

something really cool there. And Alexander's

11:07

been saying afterwards that he almost

11:10

doesn't like to talk about that side of it

11:12

too much because he'll start crying because it just feels

11:14

so special for him as a Northerner

11:16

who's going back there and someone who kept

11:18

in the club and played for the club and his brother played

11:20

there for a bit too. It just seems like

11:22

there's something slightly more intangible

11:24

there that's really cool. And

11:27

in a season that's been horrendous

11:29

for lots of reasons for losing

11:31

clubs and there's more to come possibly

11:33

without with London Irish, which we may touch on.

11:36

I just thought it was a cool occasion and showed

11:38

the best of Premiership Rugby at last. I

11:41

think it is so important

11:43

for teams to have that local edge

11:45

to what they're doing. At the start

11:47

of this year, I went to Coldie just after they'd been

11:49

kneeling trailfinders and their

11:52

aim is to establish a Championship club on the world.

11:54

They've stayed up this year, that's great. And a big

11:56

thing about what they wanted to do was when

11:59

they got promoted

11:59

the championship, they were inundated with

12:02

messages from agents saying, Oh, do you want to have a look at my

12:04

guy? But a big thing for

12:06

them is trying to keep players

12:08

from the area to have more of that local feel.

12:10

Obviously, Coldier's very grassroots club.

12:13

They are they're playing in the championship, but they have

12:16

23 park benches is their stadium,

12:18

basically. But it is so important to

12:20

have that local edge so that fans feel like

12:23

they're representing their boys when

12:25

they're playing in big matches. Yeah, absolutely.

12:28

And

12:29

not to bring it down too much, but

12:31

I think we should probably touch on this London

12:33

Irish story that's going to keep rumbling on very briefly.

12:36

So we're recording this on Monday. And

12:39

if you're a keen subscriber to the Times,

12:41

which I'm sure all of you are, then

12:43

you will have seen that Alex Lowe, our rugby correspondent,

12:45

has been writing well about this over the last few days.

12:47

And essentially, there's going to be a deadline

12:50

from the RFU for London Irish to complete

12:52

their takeover, which includes a slightly

12:55

random smattering of American sports

12:57

people, including Ray Lewis, the

13:00

former NFL player. They need to sort

13:02

that by the end of the month or they're in some

13:05

deep trouble, I think. So let's cross all

13:07

fingers and toes that that can happen, because

13:10

losing three clubs in a season would be absolutely

13:12

horrendous. But why don't we move on? Should

13:14

we just quickly have a word on

13:16

Northampton Saints and Leicester Tigers? I

13:19

think they probably don't feel it on Monday morning,

13:21

but still pretty remarkable effort

13:23

from Richard Wiggersworth at Leicester. Elgin

13:26

to have basically had all of his mates

13:28

ripped out and then they're all going now. Tom

13:30

Harrison, him, Alan Bortas, all going to England

13:33

to join Steve Borthwick and Kevin Sinfield. But

13:35

pretty decent effort to wrestle that back.

13:38

An 8% chance there at one point to get

13:40

into the playoffs. I was on the ruck in

13:42

December, which was when

13:44

Steve Borthwick was still

13:46

at Leicester, but was about to be made, as

13:48

everyone expected, the England head

13:51

coach. And I was there at the Leicester Ospreys

13:53

game when the questions were just about. So,

13:55

Steve, you still going to be here on Monday, basically, and that's what everyone

13:57

was talking about. And I came on just after the England.

14:00

He was announced as the England head coach and

14:02

I remember being asked, you know, how are Leicester

14:05

going to deal with that because they are losing their main man that

14:07

has turned them around from a team that was 11th

14:09

to a team that won the title. And they started

14:12

off not great under Richard Wigglesworth, but I

14:14

mean, they've turned it around so well to get to the

14:16

semi, even getting to the semi-finals based off

14:18

what they were looking like halfway through the season. It

14:21

has to be seen as some kind of success. For

14:23

Northampton, you know, second semi-final in

14:25

a row, but the second, another defeat and they have

14:27

lost a lot of premiership semi-finals, but

14:29

they're still getting there. So one day

14:32

will come again where they are back in the final.

14:34

But again, just, you know, probably just tighten up

14:36

on some of that defense. You know, we love

14:38

seeing them score so many tries, but

14:41

if they just saw that some of those nuts and bolts, then,

14:43

you know, they'll be able to match Saracen's even better if

14:45

they get there again. Yeah, absolutely. Right.

14:48

So that was the premiership season and there's two

14:50

teams left, Ford v. Farrell, Salvy Saracen,

14:52

Alex Sarnasson versus Mark McCool and all of his

14:55

old mates. That's going to be a belter in

14:57

a couple of weeks' time.

14:58

But up next, there were some other

15:00

interesting semi-finals. Very interesting

15:03

results, certainly. Munster upsetting

15:05

Leinster and Storm are setting up another URC

15:07

final in Cape Town. So why don't we

15:09

talk about that next?

15:13

Right.

15:16

So, in the URC, unbelievable

15:19

scenes, I suppose is the phrase, isn't

15:21

it? With Jack Crowley's drop goal,

15:24

Munster 16, Leinster 15, Leinster 4 at the semi-final

15:28

hurdle again, Mark, that was a shock

15:30

result, surely. It was. And

15:32

having seen Munster appearing Glasgow the previous

15:34

week in the quarter-final, I could not

15:36

have seen that coming. Albeit,

15:38

they did show incredible resilience that night.

15:41

They lost four guys to head injuries,

15:43

key players as well. Didn't create too many

15:46

opportunities,

15:46

but were very, very clinical when

15:48

they did. And they've carried that through into

15:50

the semi-final. There's a real

15:53

desperation about them having spoken to them

15:55

either side of that quarter-final. They know

15:57

that it's been far too long. in

16:00

11-12 or something since they last won a trophy. So

16:03

they know that that needs to be righted. I

16:05

just thought it was a tremendous performance. Lots of guts

16:08

on both sides of the ball. They've come together

16:10

on the Graham Roundtree this year and

16:13

performing more consistently than on the hybrid in previous

16:15

seasons. We'd seen flashes of the old Munster in

16:17

those years, but nothing quite as consistently

16:20

as they've served up this year. I think they had

16:22

a real reality check back

16:24

in March when a fairly weakened

16:26

Glasgow team went to Tomah Park and spanked

16:28

them. And they've spoken about that since

16:29

it's been a kind of turning point to say,

16:32

no, that is not who we are. Sort of

16:34

out for the business end of the season. And they appear to be doing that

16:36

very well, albeit now with a

16:38

pretty tricky assignment for the final one after another.

16:41

Yeah. So as someone who covers the URC

16:43

more than we do, do you just find it more

16:45

interesting to put it as bluntly as that, that

16:48

Leinster aren't just winning it all the time now? That

16:50

these South African teams, and they're not just

16:52

losing to them, but they're losing to other teams too. Definitely.

16:54

And I think there's been a real influx of

16:56

excitement in this competition over the last couple of years. It

16:59

badly needed.

16:59

I think a lot of us were probably sceptical about

17:02

the introduction of the South Africans from a logistical

17:04

point of view. And just how rivalries

17:07

that had never existed before, how could they be established

17:10

to mean something and to matter in a short space

17:12

of time? But they have. They've, you know, I

17:14

think they've definitely asked questions of

17:16

the Northern Hemisphere teams that they hadn't been asked by

17:19

their cohorts. The general level

17:21

has improved across the board, I think, in the competition.

17:23

As you see now, three out the last. The two

17:26

final since the South African teams have been there,

17:28

they've had three finalists of the four. So,

17:30

you know, the contribution they're making on the field

17:33

is fairly self-evident. It's good for everyone

17:35

that, apart from Leinster, that they don't go

17:37

on and win it for the 500th time

17:39

in a row. I know there's been a bit of criticism

17:42

about some of their selections for the game, but,

17:44

you know, we often speak

17:46

to each other up here and say there are three Leinster

17:49

15s that could win the EURC. But

17:51

maybe we've massively overstated that because

17:53

quite obviously there aren't in this case. Well,

17:56

does there have to be some? I mean, I know

17:58

that there's a small regime.

17:59

change there or maybe a large one, with

18:02

Stuart Lancaster going to Rastig 92 and the little known

18:05

Jacques Nienaarber going to Leinster.

18:08

But is there some sort of recalibration do

18:10

you think they need there? I mean, during the normal

18:13

season they're pretty much fine, they're largely

18:15

going to get into the last four aren't they?

18:17

But they've now lost two semi-finals in

18:19

a row with a European Cup final on the horizon.

18:22

And it was interesting I just saw following a few

18:24

of the guys who cover the Irish provinces

18:27

and Irish national team of a fair bit. When

18:29

Will Connors went

18:29

off early there was suggestions, oh no,

18:32

Josh van Dafly is going to have to play 79 minutes

18:34

a week before a final rather than like, it's

18:36

a semi-final now. I don't know,

18:38

does everyone around that way have to kind of rethink

18:41

it a little bit now that they're not just marching

18:43

through all these URC games? Possibly,

18:46

I'm sure they will, knowing the whole culture of that

18:48

organisation, there will be a massive inquest as to

18:50

why that's happened a couple of years in a row. Threshening

18:52

up the coaching team replacing one quality

18:55

operator with another I think can

18:57

only benefit some of the most successful

18:59

managers

18:59

across sports. I've always been very

19:02

good at kind of making sure that those guys alongside

19:04

them are rotated and that people don't get

19:06

a chance to come comfortable or stale. And

19:08

I think Leo's obviously following that tack as well.

19:11

You'd struggle to say that this is a team that's in

19:13

a bad place if they're now going to win a Champions

19:16

Cup at the weekend, but definitely they don't

19:18

carry that air of invincibility that they did at one

19:20

point.

19:21

Yeah, and LaRochelle

19:23

beat them last year, didn't they? So that's going to

19:25

add a bit of pressure for this Champions Cup final

19:27

coming. I think what's interesting is

19:29

that three of the teams taking part

19:32

in the finals that played the weekend just

19:34

gone all rested players for very different

19:36

reasons. LaRochelle

19:38

rested them because they

19:40

are all but assured of finishing second in the top 14.

19:43

So they rested like the players they played. Boteer

19:45

came off the bench, Daunty returned from injury. So they

19:47

did play some of the players to give them some game time,

19:49

but they rested a lot of players and lost to Montpellier.

19:52

Toulon rested a lot of players

19:53

and lost 43.7. Part of

19:56

the reason Toulon rested players is because they need to get

19:58

their their GIF average up. because

20:01

they need 36 JIF players, so

20:04

basically domestic players, in their last two games

20:06

to make sure they don't get a points deduction. So

20:08

they lost as well with resting a lot of players.

20:11

And obviously, Leinster, yeah, lose by one point for the second

20:13

year row, because Leinster were looking at the

20:15

prospect of, I think, five knockout games

20:17

in successive weekends. So it was almost

20:19

like a World Cup knockout stage for

20:21

them, dealing with URC

20:24

and the Champions Cup. I think one thing that was slightly

20:26

different last year that

20:28

they'd already lost to La Rochelle before the semi-final,

20:31

I think it was. So they then put all

20:33

their eggs in the URC basket and

20:35

still lost by one point. So two different ways of doing it, and

20:38

they both come unstuck in the same way. So

20:41

if they win the Champions Cup, people will all but forget about this. But

20:43

if they lose the Champions Cup again, then it's

20:45

two years in a row where they've had to rest some players

20:48

and have failed to get silverware

20:50

on both occasions. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:52

So now that the Stormers are

20:54

playing Munster in the final, the final is going to be in Cape

20:56

Town, Mark, which I think the Stormers were

20:58

pretty pleased about when they found

21:00

out. Yeah. I mean, it's always a slightly

21:03

questionable tactic, I feel, when your team

21:06

celebrate draws or, as in, who they've been

21:08

paired with. Obviously, it's not a draw in this

21:10

case. But they were, you know,

21:12

it's not difficult to understand why. If

21:15

you, a home final against Munster would

21:17

be preferable to, and a wee final against Leinster. I

21:19

think they will have enough. I've seen them multiple

21:21

times this season, Stormers. I think they would go in as

21:23

strong favorites. Again, both sides of the ball

21:26

very strong. Got some electric backs

21:28

here and an

21:28

outstanding pack. So Munster

21:31

having to travel down there. It's a

21:33

big, big ask. It would be, I think, one of the most impressive results

21:35

in their history if they could go that way. I suppose

21:37

that's the thing, isn't it? In the Champions Cup, as

21:40

in the URC, anyone who can win in

21:42

South Africa

21:43

is going to bloody deserve it, basically. Absolutely,

21:45

yeah. And Munster have won in South Africa

21:48

last month. Although there was, the

21:50

Stormers were suffering from, I think, a lot of travel fatigue

21:53

at the time, which is a caveat. But Munster's away form

21:55

has been superb. So, again, it's a slightly more

21:57

rested Stormers. You know, they will

21:59

still stand.

21:59

the chance based off their recent form. Yeah,

22:02

so we are going to tackle the

22:04

Champions Cup in a little bit, but first,

22:07

why not the Challenge Cup? Because that's

22:09

coming on Friday, and up next we're going to chat

22:12

to a friend of the podcast, Dan Bigger, who's

22:14

gearing up for that game for Toulon against Glasgow.

22:22

So, right, pleasure to be joined by

22:25

Dan Bigger down the line from Toulon,

22:27

and Dan, we've just been saying off air,

22:29

the weather looks absolutely horrendous where you are.

22:33

We're lucky down here, the weather's been pretty good. I

22:35

actually had a tiny bit of rain yesterday, first time

22:38

in quite a few weeks. Poor you. Yeah,

22:42

I'm not getting the violin out too just yet, but

22:45

life's pretty good when you, you know, we just

22:48

finished training now, we've did a little bit of

22:50

sort of walk-through stuff, fun recovery stuff this

22:52

morning

22:52

for the boys we played, and then just finished doing

22:54

some kicking, and yeah, always

22:56

a little bit easier coming into training when the weather's like this,

22:59

so hopefully it'll be similar in

23:01

Dublin on Friday night. Maybe not,

23:03

yeah, I mean, I know you've still

23:05

got your place in the west of

23:07

Wales, but yeah, it's, we haven't had summer yet

23:10

in the UK, don't you think? It was glorious

23:12

in Brecon on the weekend, I should say, it was absolutely

23:14

delightful. Oh, you should stay in Wales more then, don't

23:16

you? So, Dan, you

23:19

got your big final coming, how cool is it

23:21

to start with, I guess, just

23:22

being a big final? Yeah, both people

23:24

have asked this before, and it's brilliant to

23:26

be in the final. When you're in a, you know, you

23:28

get to the semi-finals, finals of this competition,

23:30

it's absolutely one that you want to

23:33

go and win, and this club has had some heartache in

23:35

this competition, losing four finals, so

23:37

I think the importance or the perception

23:40

this week is that it's not just, oh, we're in a final,

23:42

if we win it, we win it, if we don't, we don't, it's very much

23:45

a huge step for this group and the club

23:47

itself, because like I said, there's been four,

23:50

I think it's four finals they've lost in this competition

23:52

for a club, and a team which has had the

23:54

success, you know, in that four or

23:56

five-year period, it's sort of, it would be

23:58

a big important step for us.

23:59

as a club to get it over the line and yeah

24:02

and also just great to be part of a big

24:04

weekend really I suppose you know we've worked

24:06

hard for this over the course of the season and

24:08

hopefully we can go on one further than

24:10

we have in four previous finals. Yeah,

24:13

so is that, I don't know, not ram

24:15

down your throat but is that really important? I

24:17

mean obviously everyone knows about the kind of Johnny

24:19

Galactico era of

24:21

those Heineken and Champions Cup finals but

24:24

you've got a pretty decent team now yourselves haven't you?

24:27

Has that pushed on you that winning

24:29

these things is

24:29

really quite important from the ownership and all that? This

24:33

competition has been massively, massively

24:35

pushed on us because Pierre was here obviously

24:38

when they was back to coach when they were in

24:40

the Galactico era as

24:42

president. Obviously the new president who's come in

24:44

has invested a lot of money and resources

24:46

and in the club, the players etc etc

24:49

and I think for us to have to get that in

24:51

the trophy cabinet after a few near misses

24:53

in finals will be a huge step for

24:55

us and hopefully a bit of a springboard

24:58

for us to really kick on for bigger honours in

25:00

the next year, two years, three years, whatever it is.

25:03

So there's definitely the significance

25:05

of this week hasn't been lost on this group

25:07

from the coaches it's something that they're absolutely

25:10

sort of desperate for in this

25:12

part of the world and obviously off the back of losing

25:14

last weekend out in racing with a number of changes

25:16

it's massively important that we get the job done on Friday

25:18

night. So talk

25:21

to us about a few of the characters in the squad, obviously

25:23

some famous names and

25:24

Sergio Parisi still going on, he's one of them isn't

25:27

he? The king of the nightclubs down south is he? Yeah,

25:29

well I think he's more king of Paris I think. I

25:32

think he's got more connection. I think

25:34

he's come down here and just living the

25:37

tranquil lifestyle down in the south of France,

25:39

fantasy

25:40

and away from the hustle and bustle in Paris but

25:42

he's an unbelievable character at 39,

25:44

still putting in some unbelievable performances. He looks

25:47

after himself incredibly well in terms of working

25:49

the gym and how he's still going at 39 is unbelievable

25:51

really. You have to play

25:54

in 15 years in the top 14, it's not as if it's

25:56

a short season, Mickey Mouse League, you

25:58

put your body through a fair bit. those seasons.

26:01

So he's been brilliant. He's been also been

26:03

really helpful for me because he speaks obviously perfect

26:05

French, perfect English. So there's been

26:08

anything which has been needed to say

26:10

quickly or in the moment or translate

26:12

it for the team's need. It's been handy

26:15

having someone like him who can speak brilliant English

26:17

as well. Baptist Saran has been brilliant

26:19

here as well for me. Again, he speaks really good

26:21

English, so helps. Just a really

26:23

good group of players, really good group of players. The Fijian

26:26

boys are good as well due to Winacolo,

26:28

Waisse, and Islaevo. So we've got a good

26:30

group of foreigners here who have integrated

26:32

with the French boys as well. But yeah, Sergio's

26:35

the king. My wife was starstruck when she met Sergio.

26:37

I think it was a Christmas

26:40

party. I think it was a Christmas party and she

26:42

was a bit in awe really. So

26:44

yeah, impressive, impressive character. I was

26:46

going to say about your French. How's the

26:49

damn biggest spray

26:50

in French? It's

26:53

hard to be refined a little bit. It's hard to be

26:55

refined. Industrial. It's

26:59

a little bit more. I think when the spray

27:01

comes out, it tends to be more in English. So

27:03

I think people can just about understand the

27:05

basic words that are coming out. But I'm trying to

27:08

speak French as much as I can. We just

27:10

had a team meeting this morning and sort of

27:13

made some points in the meeting and things in French.

27:15

And it gives

27:18

you a real good feeling, a

27:20

fair bit of confidence as well in yourself.

27:22

You're out of your comfort zone as well. I hope

27:25

and I think the boys have understood what the points

27:27

were. So we'll find out on Friday

27:29

night if we look as if we know what we're doing.

27:31

It's been difficult. It has been

27:33

difficult. I think anyone who comes over and says

27:35

they pick the language up perfectly, easily,

27:38

straight away, it's probably not been 100% truthful.

27:40

It's not easy, but we've got a good group

27:43

of good coaches who speak a little bit of English and help

27:45

along the way as well. Hopefully in time

27:47

to come, I'll speak more and more French as well, which is

27:49

something I've always wanted to do anyway. Dan, how is

27:51

the culture in French

27:53

rugby? Obviously, everyone's heard so many stories

27:56

down the years of bottler wine

27:58

at lunch, at training and kicking.

27:59

the ball out intentionally at the start of the

28:02

match just so there's a scrum and a fight at the start. How

28:04

is it compared to those stories having

28:07

played against French teams for so long?

28:09

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say it's quite

28:11

on that scale just now, but I'd

28:13

say that there's definitely element of,

28:16

I don't think I've ever drunk as much red wine in my career

28:19

as I have probably the last few times. In

28:21

terms of when you go for lunch, in

28:23

terms of it's almost like it's just normal that people

28:26

have a glass of red with lunch or whatever and things. I've

28:30

got a French teacher who I'm

28:32

not sort of in a classroom or such with him. I'm very much

28:34

sort of out and about in restaurants, shops, asking

28:37

for directions, things like that. So it's cool. So

28:39

every time we go for lunch and things, there's always like a glass

28:41

of red on the table and things. So I've

28:43

kind of enjoyed that side of it very much so in

28:46

terms of the off-field stuff. And

28:48

the culture is amazing. The fans,

28:50

the people here are just absolutely

28:52

crazy Fred. The crowds are just

28:55

absolutely crazy before games, after games.

28:57

The amount of people, the cities, the stadiums

29:00

are absolutely packed here.

29:03

From what I've sensed being here since November,

29:05

there's a real feel-good factor in French rugby at

29:07

the minute in terms of obviously the national team.

29:10

National team are doing really, really well. A home world

29:12

cup in which they're going to be right up there as favorites

29:15

to go and win. The top 14 as a domestic

29:17

league is a very, very strong league. Now people

29:19

can say what they want about it, but what it is, it's thriving.

29:22

It's packed out every single week. It's

29:24

an attractive, colorful league for people to come and

29:27

play in and test yourself in. And

29:29

I'd say the culture is very much your home

29:31

games are so important. Your home games are so,

29:33

I'll flip it, the away games are so difficult

29:36

to win. Whereas your home games probably

29:39

means so much to the crowd, the supporters, the club,

29:42

that it exposes you a little bit more

29:44

for your home games. But the away games are definitely,

29:46

definitely tougher to win out here. And I

29:49

think French rugby is in a really, really good place and

29:51

given all the difficulties that we've

29:54

all been witnessing in English and Welsh

29:56

club rugby, you just enjoy being

29:59

removed from it all.

29:59

and having a lovely time in the sunshine. Yeah,

30:03

I am actually.

30:04

I think, you know, whenever I speak

30:06

to, you know, yourselves or people

30:09

similar, people think, oh, you know, people see

30:11

the blue sky in the background, and by the sea and

30:14

all those bits and pieces. And of course, that

30:16

was part of the decision to come and

30:19

play for this club. Because that's, when you play,

30:21

I think when you certainly when you play for too long,

30:23

that's a big appeal and it's quite an easy sell.

30:26

But you can also fall into a bit of a trap, which I think some

30:28

players have over the years of thinking that

30:30

you just, you just year for the house with the

30:32

pool and the weather and things like that. And

30:34

I'd like to think my character isn't

30:37

that, and it's very much when you come into work, of

30:39

course, when you're away from work, you enjoy the

30:41

weather, the beach, et cetera. But I think it's

30:43

important that my character still has that

30:46

desire to work incredibly hard, achieve

30:48

things on the field, as well as enjoying it off

30:50

it. And like you said,

30:52

the finances and the struggles that's going

30:55

on probably at the minute in England and Wales

30:57

does make it, it just feels like I've

31:00

been a little bit lucky with timing to get out of there in

31:02

the right time. And I'm certainly going to enjoy the

31:04

next couple of years and make the most of it. Like I said,

31:06

in the sun and with

31:09

my family living a really nice lifestyle. Dan,

31:11

you obviously went back

31:13

during the Six Nations and it was, I don't

31:15

know, another Six Nations with a bit

31:17

of chaos going on, but did this one feel

31:20

different to maybe the other ones where the talk

31:22

of regions merging and all that, when you won the Grand

31:24

Slam in 19, was it, there's

31:26

almost more despair this time that it was just like

31:29

not again and how we are in this position.

31:31

I think that it seemed like there was more desperation

31:33

around this time around that boys

31:36

were really, I think almost in 2019, but

31:38

I think boys were sort of thinking, no, this isn't

31:40

going to happen or this can't happen or there's going to be

31:43

something that's going to save it. Whereas I think that this time

31:45

around, they felt real, it felt very real.

31:47

Again, it was difficult for me to really comment on because

31:49

I wasn't living and breathing it and directly

31:52

involved in it, but you can just see the stress

31:54

and the strains on people. And I think that

31:56

certainly that England, we

31:57

took its toll a little bit on the squad.

32:00

I've said previously, we were almost

32:02

quite glad to get out of the veil and go to Paris and

32:05

Rome and East Fullerton for the week,

32:07

get away from things. And we do it pretty

32:09

well in Wales, sort of trying

32:11

to put a crisis into Welsh rugby. We're pretty

32:13

good at that. If there's a World Cup for that, we'd definitely be world

32:16

champions. So we'll see. We'll

32:18

see. I hope things improve because it's like I said, you've

32:20

got lots of friends and colleagues who will play

32:22

there and I hope things can improve. But it was difficult

32:25

going back. And I think when you compare

32:27

the two, it's chalk and

32:29

cheese really in terms of the finances, the

32:31

support that you've got over here in terms of for

32:33

the game. It's chalk and cheese, I think.

32:35

It must be tiring though. You've

32:37

had this for a lot of your career that the

32:39

whole siege mentality thing works to

32:42

a point. But when it's guys livelihoods

32:44

and properly affecting what they're going to be doing next season

32:46

and their wives, girlfriends, partners,

32:49

mums, dads are all really concerned.

32:51

It's trying to win a game on a Saturday and then there's

32:54

thinking about where your next paychecks coming from, isn't

32:56

it? Draining. And it was draining

32:58

for me being in all those meetings. And I didn't really have anything

33:01

to lose, in a sense. It

33:03

was very much I was fairly secure

33:05

in my position, but it was just draining in terms of

33:07

listening to going over things over

33:09

and over and over and what's right, what's wrong,

33:12

what's the best thing to do? Is it going to happen? Is

33:14

it not going to happen? All those and whether everyone's

33:16

happy with what the outcome is and

33:18

what's come and what their contracts have been offered

33:20

and accepted and signed or whatever. I just hope that at

33:23

least we can boys can park that now and

33:26

at least sort of try and concentrate on being in a bit of

33:28

a bubble together for the next couple of months in

33:30

Switzerland and Turkey. And we tend

33:32

to do a lot better when we're away

33:34

from things and out of the goldfish bowl and

33:36

we can just focus on ourselves, focus on the

33:38

rugby and the conditioning and not worry

33:41

about, hopefully not worry about the

33:43

contract situation. And the best

33:45

of maybe is at least now boys know whether

33:47

they're in a good position or bad position. They know

33:49

what position they're

33:50

in. If you're talking to the Welsh rugby public now, is

33:53

the message that look, we're going to be all right.

33:55

That took a couple of months together. Those camps, you

33:57

always perform pretty well at those World Cups.

33:59

than expected in the last couple, particularly.

34:02

Yeah, I think that

34:06

you can never see into a crystal ball, can you?

34:09

But what experience has told me and has

34:11

taught me that during World Cup cycles, and I'm not pretending

34:14

that we're in the same place that we were certainly

34:16

four years ago in terms of a saddle team, a winning

34:18

team, success. We're in a different space now.

34:20

But what experience and what time

34:22

has taught me is that the more we are together,

34:25

the better we get. The more the

34:27

World Cup campaigns in, you know, you look

34:29

at 11, 15, 19, and hopefully this time, whatever

34:34

we've done has seemed to work OK for

34:36

us. You know what I mean? I'm not saying we've become the best

34:38

team, but we've certainly been unlucky in a couple of

34:40

those competitions with injuries and whatever. But

34:42

so I think we've got confidence in that the more time

34:45

we spend together, we

34:47

can improve. Now, we're probably starting a little bit

34:49

behind the eight ball this time around compared to previous

34:51

years or previous tournaments. But

34:53

I think what we have, guys, we've got

34:55

confidence that we'll spend more time together, work

34:58

on conditioning, rugby, et cetera, et cetera, and

35:01

hopefully just be

35:03

a bit more cohesive and understand exactly

35:05

what we're trying to do. A

35:08

bit more time together just helps everything. So hopefully

35:10

that will help in terms of this

35:12

summer. And we can spring a few surprises

35:15

because no one's going to be talking about us for

35:17

competing or maybe getting

35:19

out of the pool or whatever people are going to say. It's

35:22

actually quite nice for us at the minute to just really keep our

35:24

heads down, get out of the country and

35:26

see if we can spring a few surprises. Yeah, yeah.

35:29

So bringing it back to this week, you quite enjoy

35:31

playing Scottish teams. Don't you have a bit of fun in the six

35:33

stations, didn't you? Or talk?

35:36

I love it. No silverware? I got asked

35:38

by a Scottish journalist last week. He

35:40

said, is the

35:43

experience in Murrayfield going to take you playing against

35:45

a Scottish team? I said, well, I've also had quite

35:47

good experiences playing against Scottish. Quite a fielder.

35:50

I'll have you know so. I've

35:52

done OK against Scottish team previously

35:55

as well. But for

35:56

me, I just have absolutely zero

35:58

relevance whatsoever. It's. I'm playing

36:00

for a French club against

36:03

a Scottish club in Dublin. So

36:06

it's going to have zero, Glasgow are very good side. That's

36:09

the first thing to say. They've had a really, I know they had

36:11

a tough couple of weeks, obviously losing

36:13

the quarterfinal at home to Munster,

36:16

but they're a very good side. They

36:18

can play different ways.

36:21

They can mix it up in terms of throwing the ball about

36:23

with some exciting players, but also they've

36:25

got a group of forwards who can strangle a

36:27

game as well, if certainly strangle

36:30

a game

36:30

when it's needed.

36:31

So we're going to have to make

36:33

sure we play really well. We've got

36:36

an X factor backlining and some real grunt

36:38

up front. So I think for us, it's about making

36:41

sure we, finals and big

36:43

matches are about making sure

36:46

your basics are pretty good. So we focus

36:48

a lot on this week, making sure our set piece,

36:51

our discipline

36:52

and our kicking game is on the money.

36:55

So if we get that right, generally, I think everything

36:57

else will fall into bar. But I think we've

36:59

got two teams who will like to throw

37:01

the ball about, but also

37:04

can mix it up a little bit when we need

37:06

to set piecewise as well. Yeah. Well, I'm going

37:08

to make a plea on behalf of all journalists

37:10

that you don't stop telling us what you think, because

37:13

it's all good fun and it's all meant in

37:15

the right way, isn't it? It's all a bit of fun and adds to the

37:17

spice. We don't want people to

37:19

be boring and don't say what they think. That's

37:22

why I'd always like

37:22

to think I answer. No,

37:25

you do. Some

37:27

people will like it. It's going to come back

37:29

and bite you sometimes. But if that's what I think,

37:31

I'm just going to say I couldn't care less about

37:33

people having an opinion on me. I'm

37:36

far past that now. No, good

37:38

on you. So not all good.

37:40

All good. So hopefully we can do a job on Friday. Absolutely.

37:42

Yeah. Well, all the best for it, Dan. And really good luck

37:44

for the rest of the season and everything else, because

37:47

you got trying to get into the barrels too and then popping

37:50

back over to Wales for all that. But for

37:52

now, thanks

37:52

so much for joining us, Dan. And good luck for Friday.

37:55

Absolute pleasure as always. Cheers, mate.

37:58

Taylor, editor of The Sunday

38:01

Times. Every week what drives us

38:03

is finding out the things that important

38:05

people don't want you to know. Every

38:08

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38:10

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38:12

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38:25

Terms and conditions apply.

38:38

So yes, as flags we have a

38:41

Champions Cup final on the weekend in Dublin,

38:43

Leinster against La Rochelle, a repeat

38:45

of last year's final, the first time we've had an

38:48

exact repeat, although different venue

38:50

year after year.

38:52

And now we were just talking before we hit

38:54

record on this and I think we're all massive

38:56

fans of La Rochelle,

38:59

basically because they've got a cool ground and they've got a

39:01

fun place to go, right? But

39:03

Mark, do you reckon they've got a proper shout at

39:05

beating Leinster in Dublin?

39:07

I do. I actually think they're going to do it. I

39:10

think their game is one that's

39:13

almost kind of custom made

39:15

for a game like this. They're

39:17

one of the few sides in Europe who could go in confidently

39:20

backing themselves out physical, if

39:22

that's the word, Leinster could be

39:24

out muscle Leinster. It's

39:26

just such a sensational pack that they have there

39:29

allied to everything that they

39:31

have behind the scrum as well. You saw

39:33

the scenes last year when they went back to

39:36

La Rochelle having won it. I

39:37

think if you're a player that's

39:39

been part of that, you're going to be absolutely driven

39:42

to sample it again. I just think

39:44

they're going to have, I think it's going to be tight again,

39:46

but I think La Rochelle will have just enough.

39:48

Yeah, absolutely. Elgin, you've been to La Rochelle

39:51

quite recently, haven't you? Was that the Gloucester game? Yeah,

39:53

I was at the Gloucester game as a neutral

39:56

fan during a part of a little road trip

39:58

around the south.

39:59

and south of the west of

40:02

France. And of

40:05

the 14 or 15 or

40:07

so grounds I've been to in France, it

40:09

is now my favorite one. Just the atmosphere

40:11

there, it was a sellout crowd. Obviously, it was a great game and

40:13

Gloucester came so close to winning

40:16

as well. And just the whole atmosphere

40:18

of just how beautiful the town is by itself,

40:21

the singing and the chanting. I mean, when

40:23

Weenie Artonia was down injured, the whole

40:26

crowd was chanting his name

40:28

as if trying to revive him. And it seemed to work.

40:30

The three of us that were there didn't seem

40:33

to recall a crowd reviving

40:34

a man just by chanting his name before.

40:36

But no, it was a spectacular occasion. And

40:39

yeah, it's one of my favorite places in

40:41

France to watch rugby. So I watched

40:43

them in that Exeter game in Bordeaux

40:45

the other week, obviously down the road

40:47

from where their actual stadium is. But that

40:49

was awesome. And they put a yellow flag on every seat,

40:52

including in the press box, which we put

40:54

quietly underneath the seat rather than waving it. But

40:57

I just felt so that there was something

40:59

about in the way that they

41:01

smell blood that reminded me of the

41:03

France game against England in Twickenham where

41:06

if they sense a small weakness in your defense

41:08

or a chink in the armour or something or someone makes a

41:10

dominant carry, you can almost see

41:13

the rest of the team physically rise

41:16

up. And the crowd love it too. And

41:19

they smell it as well and you can hear them. It's

41:22

funny sometimes, isn't it? Because we're used to the sounds

41:24

and sights of British and Irish

41:27

crowds. But it's a bit like Spanish

41:29

football where there's a different noise they make when

41:31

a goal goes in. And the French are different. There's a sort

41:33

of wee kind of noise to

41:35

it when they get going. It's quite fun, isn't it? Absolutely.

41:38

It's when French forwards pick and go

41:40

up the middle, it is

41:42

just the best thing in rugby. Because like you say,

41:44

the crowd just all get behind it.

41:47

And it is one of the great sights

41:49

of the game. And yeah, it is different to other

41:51

nations. I don't know why. It's just completely

41:54

intangible. But it is just different watching French forwards

41:56

picking up the middle. And we haven't

41:58

even mentioned him yet.

42:00

the cool narrative for the second season in

42:02

a row is

42:03

Man of Munster, Ronan Agara

42:05

trying to beat Leinster in Dublin. That's quite

42:07

fun, isn't it, Mark?

42:09

Yes, I'm sure it'll mean very little to him. It's

42:12

all about the players, of course, but no, that just

42:15

adds another absolutely brilliant layer

42:17

of narrative over the talk, doesn't it? And he's

42:20

done fantastically well. At La

42:22

Rochelle, he's kind of demonstrated himself already

42:24

to be one of the, you know, not just one of the most

42:26

promising, one of the, in the here and now, one of the best

42:28

coaches in Europe. So, you

42:31

know, another continental title

42:33

under his belt would cement that. Yeah, so neither

42:37

of you giving Leinster a shot.

42:39

They're going to be favourites probably with lots of the

42:41

bookmakers, aren't they, to win the fifth star?

42:45

I'll go. I mean, it's going to be within, you know, within

42:47

five points either way. It's going to be a close game. Could

42:50

be an epic. Mark, what do you reckon?

42:52

I'm going to very much say I'm going to

42:54

go within three, but La Rochelle, I'm going to go Okay,

42:57

so we're going to go for a hat trick. Maybe I should go the other way

42:59

now, just to be more interesting. Leinster

43:02

for the fifth, because that will equal them with Toulouse,

43:04

wouldn't it, for five stars in the jersey.

43:06

And it's interesting that we've talked about it before,

43:08

but we

43:10

just before were talking about the sort of domination

43:12

of the URC or whatever it used to be

43:15

called, Pro 14, Magnus, Pro 12,

43:17

before that

43:18

by Leinster. But actually, they've not won

43:20

the Champions Cup since 2018. So

43:22

in terms of legacy

43:24

and I don't know, achieving the things that people

43:26

are sort of assumed they should do, kind

43:28

of need to win this and

43:30

Lancaster would be pretty miffed if he left without

43:32

that, I'd imagine. I mean, it says everything for just

43:35

how good Leinster are that people are regarding a

43:37

second season without any silverware, but with

43:39

a Champions Cup final and a one point semi

43:41

final URC defeat as almost a catastrophic

43:44

failure, because yeah, they've won four URCs

43:46

in a row. They haven't won. Doing that

43:48

double is so difficult. They did it in 2018. But

43:50

now two years in a row, they've just fallen short, they

43:53

might get, you know, half the double this year. But,

43:55

you know, they have a league that they

43:57

know they are able to rest players. throughout

44:00

the season, which is a shame, but they

44:02

know they can do it, and it does by and large work

44:04

for them. So, yeah, like I say,

44:06

it does seem... Can

44:09

sound sometimes like people are kind of willing

44:11

them to lose and belittling them for

44:13

what they do, but they have been so successful

44:16

that just any drop down from that

44:18

is what seems like failure.

44:20

But again, they're in a European final

44:22

against La Rochelle, and it's going to be a great game. It's just

44:25

that it's probably no malice on half of

44:27

them, but it's just what happens

44:29

to the dominant team, isn't

44:29

it? Like Man United in the Noughties,

44:32

Man City now, Real Madrid, like

44:34

the top side with decent funding

44:36

and all the best players people want them to lose, don't

44:38

they, Mark? That's kind of how it works. Celtic, same sort

44:40

of thing. Indeed, you're there to be shot

44:42

down, and yeah,

44:45

and people take as much pleasure in your descent

44:47

as your own supporters do in your

44:49

right. So I think there's definitely a bit of

44:51

that going on behind us these days. Yeah, right. So

44:54

massive final. We'll review it after

44:56

it's happened next week on the Rock, but to sign

44:59

off this episode, I hope you're all ready

45:01

for a God or Goddess of the Week nomination. Who

45:03

wants to go for... I've got one up the sleeve, so

45:06

shall I do mine? And then you

45:08

guys can have a panic and a think while

45:10

I'm talking. So I mentioned it before,

45:13

and he wasn't the only one who is influential.

45:15

There was loads of the Northern lads alongside him,

45:17

but I just thought George Ford was epic on

45:20

Sunday, and

45:21

Owen Farrell was brilliant himself on Saturday,

45:23

so that's going to be amazing. But the way he managed

45:25

the team and actually Rob DePriere,

45:28

who played 10 for most of the season, probably one of the

45:30

best players of the season, but they've shunted him out to 13

45:33

to accommodate Ford and

45:35

taken a few games to get going because of his

45:37

Achilles injury. But

45:39

he now looks

45:41

like he's not just match fit, but he's

45:43

got that kind of click in

45:45

his brain as well. And he's

45:47

only just pushing 30,

45:49

which people forget because he's been playing since he was

45:51

about 16, hasn't he? So I

45:53

just thought he was epic. So he's going to be my God of the

45:56

Week. George Ford, well played. Elgin, do you want

45:58

to go next? Yeah, I'm going to go for Jack.

45:59

Crowley who kicked the winning drop goal for

46:02

months and the reason I'm going for him is because firstly everyone

46:05

loves a winning drop goal

46:06

and whenever big

46:08

match tournaments, World Cups come around everyone

46:10

starts talking about drop goals and especially

46:12

these days the death of the drop goal and people

46:15

still say you know

46:17

when a team is in the 22 hammering away at

46:20

the line and not necessarily going anywhere, commentators will

46:22

still instantly go I don't know why they're not going for a drop

46:24

goal. They happen so rarely these days

46:26

that it is probably a massive gamble to go for a drop

46:29

goal because then it happens very often but

46:31

that just means that when you do see it happen it's

46:33

just a great moment and when it happens with two minutes,

46:35

three minutes to go you win the game. We saw it with

46:37

Freddie Burns last year, you saw it with Rona

46:39

Nogar about 15 times during his Ireland

46:42

and months to career and now with Jack Crowley

46:44

so yeah that's why I'm going with Jack Crowley for

46:46

reviving the difficult dying

46:49

out of

46:49

the winning drop goal. Good effort. Before

46:52

you give us your God of the Week nomination mark

46:54

as a man who covers Italian rugby well and

46:56

knows far more about it than most of us, there's

46:59

a little bit of breaking news on the Italian front with their

47:02

World Cup squad, can you update us on what's happened

47:04

up there?

47:05

Yes, so there was a

47:07

sense that there would be some kind of big news line coming

47:09

out of this today, they've been chatted about Sergio

47:11

Parece finally getting his last

47:14

appearance and whatnot but that hasn't happened. Paolo

47:16

Dogu and Dino Lam have

47:18

both been called in by Kieren Crowley

47:20

to begin preparations for the World Cup. We

47:23

know that they've been putting a heavy focus recently

47:26

on trying to broaden their base

47:28

by looking at dual qualified players, guys

47:30

that have previously been thrown a lot in with other countries

47:34

and there's an immediate result of it and probably

47:36

in two areas of the team where they

47:38

are really not necessarily lacking

47:41

but could do with some reinforcements, we

47:43

know the threat that they have in that back three now

47:45

and excellent standoff in Paolo Dogu but

47:48

centres is maybe an area that can

47:50

definitely be improved second row likewise

47:53

so it's not hard to understand the logic there. I'm

47:57

sure that traditionalists will be

47:59

up in arms as well.

47:59

usual but the fact is that

48:02

both these guys are fully qualified

48:04

and ready to go. Yeah, I'm

48:06

not actually sure I should look it up, I'm not actually sure on Dino

48:09

Lam's qualification but I know that Paolo Adogui, he's

48:11

not a residency guy at all, he's pretty

48:13

much half Italian so anyone complaining

48:15

about that, that's completely legitimate

48:18

and having spoken to him before I think quite

48:20

a lot of his childhood was fairly

48:22

Italian, plenty of pasta at Christmas and he's

48:25

half Nigerian, sort of Nigerian

48:27

British but also Italian so good on him,

48:29

good on him. But yes, we should have your God of the Week

48:31

before you dash off to talk to

48:33

some Glasgow Warriors. I'm going to go heavy parochial

48:36

and nominate the man who's sitting through

48:38

the wall from there at the moment and

48:41

I hope you can hear me, in

48:43

Franco Smith, the Glasgow

48:45

coach who came in and inherited an utter

48:47

shambles this time last year, both

48:49

on and off the pitch, Glasgow just had almost 80

48:52

points put on them in a ERC quarterfinal

48:54

by Leinster, they aforementioned Leinster when

48:56

they were good.

48:59

The recruitment had not been great, there

49:01

was a real disconnect between the fanbase and

49:03

the club and

49:06

almost on his own he has solved

49:09

these problems and whether he wins the trophy or not against

49:11

Toulon on Friday night has had an exceptional season

49:13

and been a real galvanising force across

49:15

the board for the club. It's

49:18

been too long since a Scottish team genuinely

49:22

were in contention for a trophy, he's done that in two

49:24

fronts this year so Franco

49:27

Smith is my main man. Well hey, there we go,

49:29

decent spread, there we go,

49:31

it's a big week now, we're winding down a

49:33

couple of rucks left for the end of the season before

49:36

we all probably have a little bit of a break in

49:38

June and then piling back in in

49:41

the summer for the Billups the World Cup which

49:43

has just come around quickly, hasn't it? But for

49:46

now that has been the ruck from the

49:48

times and the Sunday times. Mark, you're

49:50

flying off to Dublin on for

49:53

Friday, what else is there? I am indeed. Floating your boat

49:55

in the week, plenty more to come from the Glasgow

49:57

camp.

49:58

I'm sure there will be.

49:59

We'll be filling our boots over the next few days. Awesome.

50:02

And Elgin, Giro D'Italia is on the telly. What

50:05

else are you covering for us? Well, I've been acting

50:07

as the Belgium sports correspondents

50:09

for the time recently because I've had plenty

50:11

of cycling with Remco of NFOL, who's

50:14

just had to withdraw from Giro because of a

50:16

positive COVID test, who remembers positive

50:18

COVID tests. And before

50:20

that, Luca Bracel in the snooker. So I've been

50:23

knee deep in Belgium recently. So

50:25

we'll see what happens. Geraint Thomas, my fellow

50:27

Welshman, currently in pink at the Giro. So,

50:29

you know,

50:29

that'd be a lovely story to report, wouldn't it?

50:32

There you go. Well, plenty more

50:34

sports to follow on the times. But this has been

50:36

The Wrap From The Times and The Sunday Times, all

50:38

about your rugby for the weekend. And we'll be back

50:41

next week to review a couple of finals.

50:43

But for now, thanks for listening. Follow and subscribe,

50:45

tell your mates, and see you all next

50:47

week. Goodbye.

51:03

The Wall Street Journal editorial page

51:05

is always on top of the latest from Washington

51:08

and around the world. I'm Kyle Peterson, and you can

51:10

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51:12

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