0:00

Okay , yes , what is going on everybody ? Welcome back to another brand

0:02

new Rugby Muscle Podcast . I'm your host as always

0:04

, tj and today I'm honored to be joined

0:07

by another rugby strength coach , and this is Joel Harris

0:09

of Strength Solution . Joel

0:11

is as strong as an

0:13

ox , and , rather than get into his

0:15

whole bio , I think

0:17

I'll let him introduce himself . So I will do

0:19

once I get him on the call . For

0:21

now , though , I would like to just say , if you enjoy

0:24

these specific interview episodes

0:26

, they are a lot more , a little bit more

0:28

arduous I say not a lot more , but they're a little

0:30

bit more arduous to set up than the solo episodes

0:32

. I really do enjoy them , and if you

0:34

really enjoy them , let me know by giving

0:36

this one a thumbs up on YouTube and

0:39

letting us know on the reviews

0:41

on Spotify in the comments section , or

0:43

just by giving us a five-star review . Wherever

0:45

you listen to your podcast , we'll be getting a

0:47

number of fellow rugby strength

0:50

coaches , and it'll be interesting to see where

0:52

we agree , where we disagree and where we

0:54

can find common ground , and for you guys as

0:56

the listeners , as rugby players , I

0:58

think you're going to get a lot from it . So

1:01

, without further ado , let's get into this one

1:03

with joel harris . So , uh

1:06

, tell me , like essentially , your background

1:08

I know your background was obviously as

1:10

a rugby player yourself . You said recently

1:13

that you've now retired , or not recently

1:15

. You just told me two seconds ago that you retired

1:17

. But uh , I

1:19

want to know , like your background , how you got into being

1:21

like a specific rugby strength coach .

1:24

Um , and then we can just sort

1:26

of riff from there yeah , yeah

1:28

, sounds good , mate , and first of all , thanks for having me on

1:31

. Um , it's always nice to come and chat

1:33

about this shit . My missus doesn't have to listen to

1:36

me then . But , um , yeah

1:38

, sure , this will be on in the car , like I'm telling

1:40

you . But uh , yeah , it's

1:43

one of those ones . I've played

1:45

rugby pretty much growing up all my life and it was something

1:47

that was such a big part

1:50

of who I was . But I wasn't the most

1:52

genetically gifted of individuals

1:54

. I was five foot fat , growing up

1:56

in the valleys and the only sport

1:58

that I really lent into was playing

2:01

rugby , and it got to a point

2:03

where , you know , you're going through the motions

2:05

. But I was lucky enough then

2:07

, with my own , throwing

2:10

myself into training and seeing what happens . I had

2:12

the luxury of playing , uh , you know

2:14

the worlds in the 20s level , stepped up into

2:16

some of the academies and actually saw what goes

2:18

on at the the highest level , and I think

2:20

for me it made me realize that the

2:23

stark contrast of what

2:25

actually goes on at the professional game versus

2:27

the grassroots game and I think that's

2:29

what's intriguing to actually

2:32

leaning in towards helping rugby

2:34

players and really specializing in that aspect

2:36

. Not only have I been there , done

2:38

that and kind of worn the t-shirt myself

2:40

. I knew the disparity between

2:43

what was going on at the grassroots

2:45

, where they're just thinking points of smashing pies 24

2:47

, 7 verse what goes on at the

2:49

, the elite level , and I

2:52

felt like there was a real gap that needed to be filled

2:54

and it was being filled with pointless bodybuilding

2:56

stuff , powerlifting things , and they were the

2:58

things that I kind of grew up

3:00

on and started to implement

3:03

into my own training and they were the mistakes that I

3:05

made that I want to kind of help others not

3:08

make throughout their own journey , because it's a common

3:11

thing and I can imagine you see it quite a lot with

3:13

, uh , with people going through . So , yeah , that

3:15

was like a little whistle stop tour of me and that

3:17

your background mate .

3:19

That's interesting . So like got a few questions

3:21

from that . Firstly , uh , give

3:23

me a bit more of a timescale of this . So

3:25

you said that you weren't overly

3:27

genetically blessed . So when did you start

3:29

playing rugby ? Because at some point you must have

3:31

realised actually , no , I'm all right if you ended up

3:33

making . Well , it was in the 20s .

3:36

Yeah , so with that timeline-wise

3:38

, I think from , I got pushed into

3:41

rugby at the age of I think I was 12

3:43

. I always wanted to play football but , like I said

3:45

, I had two left feet as well . So it was a

3:47

case of I was off the cards

3:49

and there was a rugby team that I

3:51

almost got forced into . It

3:53

was something that I was always quite hesitant , being

3:55

not genetically gifted

3:57

. I was like you know what ? I don't want to go play a sport where

3:59

people are going to try and run and take my head off . So I

4:02

got forced up there and coerced

4:04

. Did your dad play ? So

4:07

it wasn't my dad , it was my grandfather . My

4:09

grandfather was always dubbed

4:11

to be from people that I spoke to , one

4:13

of the best Welsh players to never get a Welsh

4:15

cap . They call him the Gentle Giant . He was six foot

4:17

six and he played

4:19

second row , played with the old

4:22

Evervale RTBs and

4:25

when they combined they were like boring squad . They played against the all

4:27

blacks , played against uh , australia

4:29

, south africa . So he had quite a good resume

4:32

but he never got the welsh cap and it

4:34

was only when I started playing and got kind

4:37

of hooked on it that I was really

4:39

interested in to learning his story

4:41

and his upbringing and I think that's

4:43

what triggered it for me . I think that's what triggered

4:45

the fact that when I started playing , I

4:47

realised even though I wasn't

4:50

the best athlete , I was always bigger than everyone

4:52

and I think that gave me the vote of confidence that I

4:54

needed to start off with . And then

4:56

from there it kind of evolved . I think 14

4:59

was when I found the gym and realised that you know

5:01

what I actually do need to start

5:03

taking this serious . If I did want

5:05

to step up as a good

5:07

player and hopefully get that Welsh cap Because

5:10

, yeah , it was something that , whatever my

5:12

grandmother told stories about , my grandpa that was the

5:14

first thing that would always come up would

5:17

be the mantle piece photos and

5:20

the touring photos that he had , and it was

5:22

like , yeah , he always deserved that Welsh cap

5:24

, so you can go do it as well , and I think that

5:26

was a massive part in why

5:28

I took to rugby as well .

5:30

I can imagine , because that's like , because I always think

5:33

about this , like it's not for glory of

5:35

anyone else , it's just the fact that you get to

5:37

like tell these stories and that

5:39

, and that's all . You think , that's all

5:41

. Any of it is like , no matter what high level

5:43

you play or professional you do , or whatever

5:45

it's all about like your own experience

5:48

and then how you would feel retelling

5:50

that story to other people . So like , yeah , I

5:53

like totally used

5:55

my career to do that as well , so it's , it's . I

5:57

never really thought about

6:00

like , oh , could I earn a living doing this ? Or

6:02

can I , you know , reach the highest level

6:04

for glory ? Because especially

6:06

it's probably different in wales , but like

6:08

in england or especially in

6:10

the us , um , where

6:13

I played the last of my rugby , you

6:15

walk like , or you you go through

6:18

to like you could take sia khalisi

6:20

and walk him through like the , the busiest

6:22

mall . No one's going to know who he is . And like

6:24

owen , like owen farrell can , no one's going to know who he is . And like Owen , like Owen Farrell

6:26

can just walk through the street and again he'll

6:29

get a few like people going oh who's like

6:31

, I recognize him , but you won't get him stopped

6:33

. Football players like they can't do that

6:35

. So it's like no one

6:37

really does care , even if you play at

6:39

the absolute highest level that you can with rugby

6:41

. So it's just about what story you can tell

6:43

, and I think , like that's something that you

6:46

say , there's a big disparity to like

6:48

from professionals to amateurs . I think that's one where

6:50

amateurs sort of sell themselves short

6:52

because it's all about how

6:54

much fun you can have in the stories that you can tell

6:57

and I think like that's , if

6:59

amateurs can experience that

7:01

as well by playing their better rugby , then that's

7:03

only going to enhance their own like life , you know

7:05

yeah , 100

7:08

, I think .

7:08

The stories that people try and tell themselves

7:10

that they're the amateur level and the lower

7:12

level games is there , the tall

7:14

stories , the drinking , all

7:17

this and that , but one of , uh , one

7:19

of , like the most influential coaches on me , um

7:22

, he always said you have more fun when you win

7:24

, in winning anyway . So , like the

7:26

beers that you taste after the game , the celebrations

7:29

that you have , the songs that you sing , all mean that little

7:31

bit more when you are winning and I

7:33

think people can kind of cut

7:35

themselves short , like you said , on the fact that

7:37

, oh , you know what , I only play it for the social

7:39

side of things . I'm like , yeah , socially you'll have a

7:41

much better time if you're beating teams and you're

7:43

actually happy with your own performances

7:45

and people

7:48

if you're out of the booze and you've

7:50

lost .

7:51

You still can have a great time , but every you

7:53

know , like every few minutes or every half

7:55

hour , a couple times an hour , you're just like , oh

7:57

, fuck , if we'd have just won , you know what

7:59

I mean . Like the amount of times I've I've done

8:02

like sevens tournaments as well , where they've been

8:04

great , and then we lost in the final . You're

8:06

like , oh , that's a great memory . Fuck , we lost .

8:10

It'll always taint that memory as well

8:12

, and that's the thing . Whenever you

8:14

go back to the big moments that you've

8:16

had within your rugby career , I

8:18

can imagine it's probably off the back of

8:21

big wins where you were the

8:23

underdog or you came from behind . You

8:25

put in a stellar performance and they're the

8:27

ones that you can remember and they're the beers that you can

8:29

remember after as well . So it's

8:31

weird that people just turn up to

8:34

rugby on a Saturday . They can't be

8:36

asked for training on a Tuesday , thursday . They

8:38

just wing it . They pick up injuries all the time . They're

8:40

really unfit .

8:48

They're 20 minutes from the park and they're glowing out their ass and they're like oh yeah

8:50

, I love rugby and I'm like you just love getting pinched mate . You can do that . You can love

8:52

it so much more . That's so true . You just want these mates to to get

8:54

drunk with . But if you actually got in shape

8:56

, you would enjoy it so much more . So

8:58

let's talk about you getting into shape . So , uh

9:00

, you said you hit the gym 14 , 14

9:03

. That's a decent age to start

9:05

taking it somewhat seriously . What

9:07

did that look like ?

9:11

So probably the typical person

9:15

getting into training . I had my heart broken at the

9:17

age of 14 , and I was like , no , you know what

9:19

, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to change

9:22

it . So the people

9:24

that you see online . At the

9:26

time I think social media wasn't

9:28

as big as what it is now in terms of the availability

9:31

of great information . So I

9:33

just started learning from the

9:35

typical men's health magazines . You know , you'd see

9:38

Arnold on the cover . There'd be big

9:41

social media influencers that were kind

9:43

of Steve Cook , all those people and I just kind of

9:45

took a liking to that because they

9:47

were the people that were in good shape at the time and

9:49

I thought that's what I needed to be . Because you

9:51

look at athletes , they look a certain way and

9:53

I thought , well , if I chase that , the

9:56

performance on the pitch will come . And it

9:58

just meant that I was turned up to the gym the typical

10:00

pro sclare .

10:05

You know Arnoldnold I think it's arnold's eight week blueprint was the the

10:07

program that I decided to run , and it's a common thing

10:10

, the muscle farm one .

10:10

Yes , that was exactly it's iconic

10:13

, my iconic , but I didn't

10:15

have a clue . I just turned up to the gym and I

10:17

just follow that to a tee and you

10:20

know it got me making

10:23

progress , which was the biggest thing . But

10:25

I think only when you look back with

10:27

the knowledge that you got now do you realize that

10:29

the kind of holes and the flaws in it

10:31

, but the big thing it was getting me to

10:33

the gym three times a week alongside training

10:35

. I brought one of my mates alongside and I

10:38

think I realized the importance of having

10:40

someone on the journey with you as well . So the two of

10:42

us we turn up and that would be our

10:44

days . And I think the first transformation

10:47

was the biggest for me . I think I ended up losing 30

10:49

kilos and that was

10:51

the catalyst where I thought , oh

10:53

, you know what performance is increasing

10:55

. Yeah , for me that was the early

10:58

days of it .

10:58

But yeah , it was some of the shit thrown

11:01

into that , Some of those early days's like

11:03

you , you just grasp whatever

11:05

you can , because I

11:07

think the whole thing is kind of overwhelming

11:09

and the reality is when you're just beginning

11:12

, like everything works and

11:14

if you can stick

11:16

with it long enough , you , the biggest

11:18

thing I think you take away is that , just that lesson , that

11:21

if you stick with something long enough and you see that progress

11:23

, like that's , that's

11:25

one of the most uh , reaffirming

11:28

things that you can actually get . And it's why you

11:30

see so many people that are into

11:32

fitness , like sort of expand into

11:34

other business domains or

11:36

whatever . Like you know , you look at someone like

11:38

the rock and that's like not

11:41

saying that most people that go to the gym are going to end up like

11:43

him . But he's the perfect example of right . I've done this

11:45

. Or Arnold himself I've

11:47

done this , I've achieved this , I've set my

11:49

goals and done whatever I've

11:51

progressed to achieving

11:54

in this area . Now I'm going to progress

11:56

to achieving in that area . Or I'm going to progress in this way

11:59

and if you can just know that just

12:02

putting in your efforts and that delayed gratification

12:04

like it can be huge . And

12:06

again , being a beginner , no matter what , like

12:09

you , you know when

12:11

you look at the science , people

12:13

that just start running actually

12:15

gain muscle on their legs . So it's like

12:18

you can do anything and you're going to gain muscle

12:20

and that's cool . You know , mine

12:22

was the 300 workout from that , the

12:24

, the Jim Jones stuff . That

12:26

was like it was like early

12:28

days CrossFit , before it was CrossFit and

12:31

probably a little bit more extreme , but I don't know

12:33

. It looked cool and uh

12:36

, I felt cool whilst doing it and and

12:38

yeah , it's just that ability to sort of see

12:40

it in your physique as well , see how your body

12:42

changes , and then like , actually

12:45

feel good about it and then know that , okay , if

12:47

I can put this action into a

12:50

certain direction , I can get this output .

12:53

no , and I think that's I think that's a great

12:55

point . There is like it looked cool at the point as

12:57

well , and I think you know , at that age , when you're

12:59

just kind of getting into it , you you

13:01

worry about splitting hairs , about

13:03

all this other stuff , but , like you said , just running

13:06

is the catalyst

13:08

for gaining muscle for people that are complete beginners . So

13:10

if you could just do something whether

13:12

you enjoy it , whether it looks cool , whether

13:14

you know you've , whatever

13:16

it is , as long as there's something that you can vibe

13:18

with and I think for me that was one of the

13:20

the easy things there was not

13:23

a lot of overwhelm there , like it is now , because

13:25

you go on social media and you

13:28

know it's part of our job is to put the right

13:30

information out there . But every single man and their

13:32

dog has an opinion on absolutely

13:34

everything nowadays and it can leave people a

13:36

little bit like where do I actually

13:38

turn ? Because you look at one thing , it says something

13:41

. You look at something else , it says something else . But essentially

13:44

, yeah , if you can just find the avenue

13:46

that you enjoy , that you like the look of , and you can stick with

13:48

it , that lesson of delay gratification will come at

13:51

some point where that whether it's three

13:53

months , six months , nine months down the line . If you keep

13:55

doing up like doing the thing and

13:57

showing up , you're going to get the results at some

13:59

point when you're in that kind of early days yeah

14:02

.

14:02

So social media just tends to be

14:04

the algorithms

14:07

always respond a little bit better to like negative

14:09

stuff because we just as I don't know as humans

14:11

, like sort of I

14:13

guess feel a need to comment more often . That's

14:16

why , like you get joel seidman's uh stuff

14:18

gets so popular because people

14:20

love to bash it and it just feeds the algorithm

14:22

for the bloke and all he just has to do is put up . And

14:25

I remember he did an interview with kia

14:27

and or a debate

14:29

with kia and he was like 90 of

14:31

the stuff I do isn't posted on instagram . I'm like , yeah

14:33

, so you know exactly what you're fucking doing , because

14:36

that's the stuff that gets the results . But the quirky

14:38

shit goes on instagram . People hate

14:40

it . People need to tell everyone okay , this doesn't work

14:42

. And then we end up and

14:44

the problem with social media is that we

14:47

then end up telling everyone and I'm guilty of this

14:49

on my own social media I'm saying like don't do this because

14:51

this doesn't work , because that's going

14:53

to get more traction . But then eventually

14:55

there's going to be people say don't do what I preach

14:57

, like people say . I know other rugby

14:59

strength coaches will say , oh , you shouldn't do long

15:02

, slow , slow runs , when in actual

15:04

fact , I think the opposite . I think long , slow

15:06

runs can be massively beneficial for rugby

15:08

players . Now , I'm

15:11

sure that they don't produce people just

15:13

as fit as what I can produce , and that's fine

15:15

. And again , what we're probably doing is splitting

15:18

hairs . But for the untrained

15:21

eye or for the inexperienced eye , you're

15:23

like , oh , am I supposed to run ? Am I not supposed

15:25

to run ? Okay , I'm supposed to do this , I'm supposed

15:27

to do this . What the fuck do I do ? and it ends up yeah

15:30

overwhelming is the word that you said . I think that's . That's

15:33

a big problem with it , right ?

15:35

yeah , 100 , and , like you said

15:37

, I think all roads lead

15:39

all roads lead to room and

15:42

every single person just has their own

15:44

way of getting there . And I could imagine we

15:46

could end up arguing about something in your

15:48

system versus my system that you

15:50

disagree with or I agree with , but then

15:52

we'd have so many different common grounds that we agree

15:55

on . And I think the problem is , like

15:57

you said , that negative social media algorithm

15:59

. There's a social media guy from , uh

16:01

, from where I'm from , and his whole

16:03

instagram is just

16:05

calling out people that are wrong . Um

16:07

, and he's like the only reason why I

16:10

call people out all the time is because it builds

16:12

that traction . It builds that um algorithm

16:15

and people start commenting . One of my best posts

16:17

had over half a million views and

16:19

it was people arguing in the comment section for

16:22

me and that's the only thing that filled

16:24

it . And I went to the gym yesterday and

16:26

he was like someone was like oh , I

16:28

saw , I saw the comments on that video . How'd you put up with it

16:30

? And I'm just like well , at the end of the day , it feeds

16:33

, feeds my page , and whether

16:35

some people think it's right or wrong , if

16:45

they want to argue with me , those ones where , yeah , at the end

16:47

of the day , it's a sad reality of instagram and how people work nowadays .

16:49

But yeah , you've got to do what you've got to do . Yeah , I know it's it's because

16:52

it is interesting to see , because I've only started

16:54

like I took like a basically a couple years

16:56

off of instagram . If you scroll

16:58

far enough down my feed on on rugby muscle

17:00

, you'll just see all of a sudden like jumps

17:02

like a couple years or there's like a few spare

17:04

posts within those years because all I did

17:06

was this youtube and the podcast stuff . But

17:09

the reality is this is instagram is

17:11

where most people are . There's just still the volume

17:13

of eyes on that is still different . I like

17:15

these podcasts because they're just more searchable

17:18

. So I think for me , especially

17:20

with the reels now it's I

17:23

debate how much I think the

17:25

idea of instagram is great to get some information

17:28

, to get to know someone . But then the work you're

17:30

not . I don't know many people

17:32

. Maybe we can disagree on this . I don't

17:34

know many people that would follow

17:37

someone on instagram and get

17:39

enough tangible information that they could actually

17:41

implement . That would really

17:43

get them massively

17:45

different results than if they just didn't see

17:48

that person , if that makes sense no

17:51

100 .

17:51

I think that's the the landscape of

17:53

me for , for instagram is

17:56

it's like one of the fastest growing platforms

17:58

, apart from tiktok , in terms of like eyes

18:00

on people . And yeah , like you said

18:02

, how much information can you get across in

18:05

a 30 to 60 second reel

18:07

? Probably not a lot if you're going

18:09

one point . There's some people that I follow

18:11

that you know repeatedly

18:14

hit home certain points that I

18:16

vibed with and then I've dabbled in longer

18:18

form content and it is that

18:20

top of funnel stuff , the whole funnel , all

18:22

this way . You know , social media and instagram

18:25

is right there , and like youtube

18:27

, podcast stuff is where

18:29

, ultimately , I think people need to start

18:31

to get to . But I think you get found out when

18:33

you uh set up a podcast for 45

18:36

hours , however long it is I do a longer

18:38

youtube video and it's not clickbaity

18:40

and it is the the harder platform

18:42

to grow . I can imagine , based

18:44

on the numbers and

18:46

stuff that you've done and the time that it's taken to build

18:48

, that it's one of the most

18:51

rewarding ones , though in the long run .

18:54

I just always try and value putting

18:56

out the best information , and I just don't

18:58

. I think it's also creatively . I just don't like

19:00

the short form content as much . It's just it's

19:03

hard for me . I don't , probably because I tend

19:05

to ramble , but I want

19:07

to make sure that everything is

19:09

perfectly covered

19:11

off , but maybe I'm just not good at it , I don't

19:13

know . I

19:16

think you make a good point , though , like in the

19:18

more experienced

19:20

people , where I do end up getting found out like I

19:22

like this as well , because sometimes I'll flush my own

19:25

ideas out and then even then I'll I'll

19:27

go back and I'll be like ah , maybe I was wrong with that

19:29

and we're , we're Instagram

19:31

, that's what . That's gone . People completely

19:33

forgotten about that . You can . You can always just repo

19:35

post posts from like six months ago and

19:37

everyone no one remembers it as

19:39

as

19:46

a as a repost . Everyone just thinks it's new . So , let's

19:48

, let's see if we can find you out , mate . So , uh , I want to know

19:51

what sort of shaped your own um influences on

19:53

being a rugby strength coach

19:55

, like I know the disparity

19:57

between amateurs . Well , actually , let's , let's touch

19:59

on that first . So what were the biggest

20:01

disparities between amateurs and

20:03

professionals that you thought ? Okay , this is

20:05

where I can fill this gap .

20:08

So I think , when it

20:10

comes to the

20:12

differences

20:15

between the top level and , I'd say , the amateur I

20:17

think it's the standards that I realized

20:19

was like whenever it came to you know , gym

20:21

sessions . It

20:26

would be a case of if you're late , you know you've got

20:28

a fine to do , or you know if you weren't

20:31

on time you couldn't miss a day . It was more

20:33

like a contractual thing you had to

20:35

be at the gym and that's all well and good for for

20:37

someone , that's kind of being paid to be

20:39

there and work . But I think even

20:41

when people strip things back to fit their schedule

20:43

from an amateur level , they let

20:46

the standards set , they let the barriers , like the

20:48

barrier to high

20:50

performance . They kind of drop that slightly

20:52

. So when you are being held

20:54

accountable in a performance setting , you'd have people

20:57

with a program there , you'd have

20:59

people tracking your numbers . You make

21:01

sure that you want to be it , you wouldn't want to be

21:03

late , you wouldn't want to miss a session . All those things . I

21:05

think they're the big foundational rocks

21:07

that like build that consistency and they

21:09

build that long-term habit . And I think that's

21:11

just purely missing from most

21:14

people , just from the get-go , regardless

21:16

of whether they're doing the wrong program or anything . They just

21:18

don't have that backbone structure and they don't

21:20

actually understand what goes

21:22

into actually

21:25

performing at a higher standard

21:27

. Because the way that Instagram's gone

21:29

, it's always kind of quick fixes , things like that , and

21:31

they think that's the route to it . So I think

21:33

the first thing is just

21:35

the understanding

21:37

of what actually goes in from a

21:40

mindset standpoint . And I think once

21:42

you can start to get at different individuals

21:44

, whatever program they're running I think that's why

21:46

there's so many coaches doing different

21:48

things out there is , if you can get

21:50

that buy-in early on and start to

21:53

actually track the data for people , get

21:55

them being accountable , turn it up on time

21:57

, actually doing the right things , then from

21:59

the basic habits they're

22:02

going to start to make progress , regardless of

22:04

whether they're going in like right or wrong direction

22:07

in terms of the rugby stuff . But then

22:09

once they do get that structure in place , most

22:12

amateur people uh , they

22:14

just follow the kind of power lifting bodybuilding

22:17

, the general five by five , three

22:19

by twelve , whatever it may be . You

22:21

know they've seen someone do drop sets that implement that

22:23

and that's as far as their

22:25

essence equals and

22:27

I think unanimously

22:30

across country to

22:32

wherever bodybuilding dominates

22:35

the kind of fitness

22:37

space at the minute . So I think that's where everyone pulls

22:39

their information from and I think , yeah

22:42

, it's a part of training

22:44

S&C for rugby is getting a

22:46

good muscle pace in place . But

22:49

if that's where you stop , I

22:51

think you've shot yourself in the foot and I think that's what I

22:53

realised was the difference

22:55

maker was that it goes beyond

22:58

hypertrophy , it goes beyond strength and

23:00

there's this kind of like whole we

23:03

call it the core four that takes

23:05

to being a good rugby player Strength

23:07

, speed , power conditioning . They're the . We call it the core four that takes to being a good rugby player strength , beat , power , conditioning , like they're the

23:09

. They're the kind of main fundamental aspects

23:12

and only one of those tends to really get

23:14

tipped off by most amateur

23:16

rugby players yeah , massive

23:18

.

23:19

Um , the accountability is probably is

23:21

huge as well . I think it's like

23:23

I've spoken to a few people about this

23:25

recently because we were talking about like motivations

23:27

and whatnot and it's like if you're if

23:30

you're a professional and you stop going to the

23:32

gym as much , even if you like

23:34

, well , first , if you're not going to your team sessions

23:36

, like that puts you all the way

23:38

down . You stop performing . You like your

23:41

coaches can see that and know why

23:43

. Even if you're like

23:45

having your own individual sessions , your

23:47

performance is going to inevitably slowly go

23:49

down and there's so many people

23:52

that are in that space that are so hungry for that , especially

23:54

now . All the youngsters that have been starting since a young

23:56

age bodies are primed , hungry

23:59

for that contract . There's less and less money

24:01

in outside of france there's

24:03

there's less money for more playing

24:06

positions than probably

24:08

ever and so like . If

24:10

you don't do it , you like . What

24:12

sort of accountability is your job ? It's a massive

24:14

. Like people don't not

24:17

show up to their job because they're hungover or because they don't

24:19

feel like it . They , they do their job no matter

24:21

what . They always show up and that's that's

24:23

what the gym is for a professional , for an amateur

24:25

. It's not for amateur , unless you're

24:27

nicely . If you've got everything organized , it's

24:30

much easier . If you don't , it's

24:33

much harder . It's so much harder because that's

24:36

the first thing to go . You're not again . You're going to

24:38

show up to work , no matter what . So that's

24:40

already I don't know what . What do normal people

24:42

work ? Eight hours , nine hours a day . Eight

24:44

hours , nine hours a day like that's already off your schedule . Sleep

24:47

you can't just not sleep , especially

24:50

when you're not going to . People do sacrifice sleep for

24:52

the gym . I don't think that's a winning battle either

24:55

. So you end up

24:58

being somewhat inconsistent . Because it's not

25:00

there . You have to make it a priority as part of your schedule

25:02

and again , because it's part of your job as a professional

25:04

, you're going to do it .

25:14

If it's part of your job as a professional , you're going to do it . If it's not , you have to treat it the

25:16

same way , right ? No ? And I always remember driving to to training and you'd be stuck on the m4

25:18

. You'd be driving somewhere and you'd be stuck in traffic and the anxiety about being

25:20

late . You , you'd like , have to text

25:22

across being like I'm running late , I'm stuck in traffic . You'd

25:25

have to show proof that you know you , you're there

25:27

and people like that

25:29

. That's been driven into me now and that's the standard

25:32

that I hold myself by . It's like well , I want

25:34

to make sure that I'm on time for things

25:36

. I want to make sure that I don't actually second guess and

25:38

just kind of let the excuses Because I think

25:40

it is a negative cycle

25:42

loop either way . So

25:48

you carry on doing the right thing . It's a positive loop where you're reinforcing that good decision

25:50

. You show up , you get the results and it breeds more of that . But when

25:52

you let the excuses win , it's a

25:54

case of you skip one gym

25:56

session , what's the next ? So you're running late for this , you're

25:59

half-assed , this , and then it's that , that negative

26:01

feedback loop the other way . So I think you've got to

26:03

be really , really strict on that kind of accountability

26:05

, those boundaries and actually setting yourself that structure

26:07

, because I think as soon as that starts to go , as like you said

26:09

, it becomes a losing battle for most people yeah

26:12

, absolutely .

26:14

And then once you do get that motivation

26:16

, or you get that , uh , I don't

26:18

, even I don't like using motivation . You just get consistency

26:20

right . No , whether you're disciplined because

26:23

you enjoy it , which then are you really disciplined , or

26:25

you motivate whatever , you show up to the gym

26:27

consistently , again , it's still we're

26:29

doing our best as we can , but

26:32

you're right Like , because , especially

26:34

I think it's even worse with social media because

26:36

fitness , you can't see

26:38

fitness , right , you can get phenomenal runners

26:40

that look like nothing . You can get phenomenal

26:43

athletes , rugby players even , that don't

26:45

look like . You put them in a normal , in a hoodie , and

26:47

no one will notice that they're even a rugby

26:49

player outside of , like ebonette to beth and people

26:51

like that . So then it's

26:54

like what does performance look

26:56

like ? We don't know . So then social media leans into

26:58

okay , it looks like this shredded physique

27:00

, massive bulging pecs , popping

27:02

quads or or just someone really

27:04

lean , whatever , like , and it becomes a visual

27:06

thing and really , for most people that

27:09

aren't athletes , that are just

27:11

looking to get in shape , yeah , 90 of

27:13

the reason they want to do it . You even said because your

27:15

missus broke up with you , right , you're going to show her , I'm going to look

27:17

better . Yeah , there's like and

27:19

and me . I watched the three

27:21

of the movie 300 . Oh , those guys are ripped . That's

27:23

cool . I want to look like that , right , so it the same

27:25

thing . We're so visual . So then that's

27:28

what gets traction . So then that's the training

27:30

that we end up looking for . And it's

27:33

funny . You said , uh , your core force

27:35

, strength , uh , speed conditioning

27:37

and power , right , yes , hypertrophy

27:39

is is a part of

27:41

a couple of those things , maybe , but it's , it's

27:44

not actually a goal , it's a byproduct

27:47

of training for other things . Even

27:49

then , when you understand that , okay , you

27:51

then follow what ? Okay , how , I don't care

27:53

about how I look , I just want to get really strong . Who

27:55

are the strongest people ? I've got to follow these power lifters , oh

27:58

, that means I've got a squat bench and deadlift

28:00

, but that's just because

28:02

of the rules of power lifting , but those , that's just how you

28:04

do it . And uh , the third , the

28:06

third road , uh , stop in . That road

28:08

is is usually end up being like some sort of crossfit

28:11

, because , uh , actually I don't want to just get

28:13

strong , I want to get strong and fit . What do I gotta do ? I gotta do

28:15

crossfit . And again , it's a different

28:17

sport with its own specific , like

28:19

uh , conditions that

28:21

you've got to get good at . And so with

28:23

crossfit it's different , like certain wards and

28:26

certain aspects which use different

28:28

energy systems than what rugby does . So

28:30

again it's

28:32

it's about and I think

28:34

people listen to this podcast now know

28:36

there's a big difference with that yet

28:38

still there ends up being a little bit of a

28:41

bit of a discrepancy

28:43

in the way that they train , because it's just simple . Again

28:45

, we've , we've done this . It's

28:47

hard because we've also I don't know

28:49

what that camera's doing now Come back down

28:52

here it's hard because the

28:54

we , we also want things to

28:56

be simple . Right , we , it's

28:58

, it's we don't want to overcomplicate stuff

29:00

. It's because of fitness ended

29:02

up being overwhelming , but at the same

29:04

time , simple doesn't mean training like

29:07

a power lifter or like

29:09

a bodybuilder or like someone that has different

29:11

goals to you , because , well

29:14

, it's not going to get you to your goals yeah

29:18

, and I think that the problem is

29:20

that the landscape of social media

29:22

is always people want their

29:24

the hardest result in the

29:26

easiest way possible and the least

29:28

hassle .

29:29

And the thing is getting in shape

29:32

, being a great rugby player

29:34

isn't easy , but

29:36

it's not complicated . That's

29:38

the problem . People , I think , mix

29:41

up the terms easy and hard and simple and complicated

29:43

. It's not easy to

29:45

get in the best shape for

29:47

rugby , but it's quite simple . It's

29:50

just hard . And when people see

29:52

that word hard , they're like they

29:54

immediately bounce into complex

29:56

, fancy things because they feel like that

29:59

constitutes hard . But it's just mentally

30:01

stimulating rather than actually making you

30:03

better . And , like you said , you bounce from that . You

30:06

go into bodybuilding , you try the powerlifting route

30:08

, you try the crossfit route and then you end up at a

30:10

point well , these are the people in best

30:12

shape , these are the strongest people , these are the fittest people

30:14

. How come I'm neither of these

30:16

and it's like well , that's

30:18

where then people start to I must be this

30:21

, it must be this , it must be that , it must be that . One

30:23

thing that I'm not doing , and the

30:25

problem is when you're kind of putting

30:27

out social media content , that's , that's the

30:29

, the hooks and the things

30:31

that actually get people listening to your content

30:34

? Is that one thing that you're not doing ? And

30:36

then people are like , well , what is it ? And

30:39

it's the the landscape

30:41

of social media . But , like you said , it's not complicated

30:43

. It's actually quite straightforward and quite simple

30:45

when you break it down into a simplest

30:48

part .

30:48

But yeah , is that because a lot more than most

30:50

it's also like there

30:53

is the complication is more

30:55

on the back end , right , it's like assessing

30:58

what you need to work on . Oh

31:00

, okay , like you , you

31:03

know . You can say , oh just , you know , I just lift because

31:05

that's , it's simple . But if you're really unfit

31:07

, okay , like that

31:09

. There's a level of complication to establish

31:11

that and then to say , okay , it doesn't

31:13

need to be complicated , go do some basic

31:16

aerobic work or whatever . Or

31:18

the opposite end of the spectrum , where you've got someone that's really

31:20

fit but really weak , but they

31:22

say I just run and do my basic

31:24

bodyweight workouts because I want to keep it simple , but

31:27

again , if you're weak , you've got to address

31:29

that issue . I think you're

31:31

so right though , where because

31:33

it is difficult and because , like we

31:35

bias again on social media

31:38

as well , right , who gets the most traction

31:40

? It's

31:45

the people with the best results , the really strong

31:48

people , the freakishly big people or powerful people or whatever . The worst one

31:50

, and I think you might be the

31:52

only one . If you're not guilty of this , every

31:54

rugby page will repost Joshua

31:56

to us over , because the man is the most

31:58

jacked person ever . I

32:06

don't think he even lifts weights , he's just a freak

32:08

. So you can't follow his advice . Yet you could lift weights

32:10

perfectly for years on end and do everything right and

32:13

not look a fraction of this guy . And that doesn't mean that

32:15

you haven't done everything right . It doesn't mean that you've missed

32:17

the one trick , but human nature is

32:19

to look for those tricks . And yeah , you're right , you

32:21

can give like the perfectly most well-balanced

32:24

uh uh , uh

32:26

real and put that out there . Or do the best video

32:28

and and and like

32:30

really be perfectly balanced with you and

32:32

give the best advice . People ain't

32:34

gonna click it because they want to know the secret

32:36

still , and you have to sort of shoehorn

32:39

the basics in via

32:41

different levels of entertainment

32:43

or hooks that again

32:45

keep them interested yeah

32:48

, and it's the .

32:50

It's the nature of the beast , quite sadly , but

32:52

it is one of those

32:54

ones that you look back and like

32:56

every rugby page does . Yeah , I've posted

32:58

the , the mammoth that

33:00

he is on my page as well as like , but

33:03

it's genetics , kind of

33:05

uh does play a

33:07

big factor into some of this , and they are built differently

33:09

over that side of the world as well yeah , it's

33:12

um .

33:13

The other complication I think and I think this is one

33:15

of our first posts that we got chatted on is

33:17

is training splits . Because

33:19

people love to talk about training splits because they always ask

33:21

what's the best split for a flanker ? I

33:24

don't know , like that's

33:26

not a question , that's not really like , and

33:28

I guess that is because people look again

33:30

, it's looking for that perfect solution . If I just

33:32

get the perfect split , then I'm going to be

33:34

able to like massive , make massive gains

33:36

in my squat , but also get really fair and

33:38

fast and do all of these different things , whereas

33:41

actually , I think again

33:43

, it's a , it's a more complicated analysis

33:45

that's required to come up with the

33:47

best training split for you . I

33:50

want to know . I guess we can sort

33:52

of touch on that . Then You've

33:55

posted a few different splits . So how would you look

33:57

at managing the difference of

34:00

your core four ? I

34:02

have five pillars , so I add movement and I

34:06

call it athleticism . It's just different movement capacities

34:08

in there . So I add movement and I call it athleticism . It's just different movement capacities in there . So I add

34:10

that as a fifth , but that can easily

34:13

be worked into the other four , however you would define

34:15

it . So your four . How do you go about working

34:17

those four different elements at

34:20

the same time , or do you even work them at the same

34:22

time ?

34:24

So I think this is where are

34:26

there going to be better and worse splits for

34:29

rugby ? Yes , 100 like

34:31

there are going to be ways that I feel that

34:33

you know , if you consider like consolidating

34:35

stresses , and that's why I think hybrid

34:37

has become so , so popular at

34:39

the minute . Like you said , it's a case of people

34:42

want that new fancy thing and hybrid

34:44

is that thing where it's like combining strength and endurance

34:46

. Now , do the two coexist ? And

34:48

is there something called the interference effect ? Yeah

34:51

, there is , but how

34:53

important is that for you when

34:55

you're not an elite level marathon runner trying

34:58

to go sub two hours versus a , you

35:00

know , world-class powerlifter that's trying to break

35:03

the heaviest total ever ? If you lie on that

35:05

spectrum ? Probably it's not so much . So

35:07

whenever it comes to to kind

35:09

of designing that , we'll add your fifth pillar in there

35:11

, because I really and I really like the . The movement

35:14

slash athletics is something , because that

35:16

underpins everything , I think . Um

35:18

, so you've always got to kind of take into consideration

35:20

the athlete that's coming in and you've got to

35:22

look at what they can do . Now

35:24

, whenever we're in the gym

35:26

, there's a

35:28

skill element and there's a skill component

35:31

to the weights that

35:33

we do . So , for example , a back squat

35:35

is a very , very great

35:37

quad exercise for people to

35:40

try and build muscle , but if you can't

35:42

back squat it's a very shit

35:44

exercise , whereas a leg extension

35:46

is very , very good quad exercise

35:48

and really hard to fuck up as well

35:50

like . If you fuck up a leg extension , you've

35:52

got to be doing something drastic , like

35:55

satin it backwards or something . So whenever

35:57

we're kind of picking a training

35:59

split , I think the first thing that's going to look is

36:01

what are you competently able

36:03

to do and where is your kind of baseline level

36:06

of athleticism ? And then that

36:08

will determine a lot of the movements that go in . Because

36:10

, like I said , if you are picking a

36:12

back squat exercise for lower body strength and power but

36:14

you can't actually load it , you're not going to be getting

36:16

that designated stimulus from that movement

36:19

. You're just going to be working on the skill acquisition

36:21

of that . So once you've understood

36:23

what you're actually able to complete

36:26

, tick off and actually get

36:28

the right stimulus , I think it's then

36:30

about doing a little bit of an

36:32

evaluation , I think . Are

36:35

you someone like you said that runs all the time

36:37

, does bodyweight workouts but a

36:39

week is best , there's

36:50

zero conditioning and doesn't really focus anything other than squatting below three

36:53

reps , dead lifting below three reps and benching one rep max because it looks good . So like

36:55

, where do you lie on that spectrum ? And I think that's

36:57

then the baseline foundation

36:59

of your split , because there is no

37:01

perfect split for a flanker , there's no

37:03

perfect split for rugby . There's no perfect

37:05

split for um getting stronger there's a perfect split for rugby . There's no perfect split for um getting stronger

37:08

. There's a perfect split for you and your athlete profile

37:10

. And then it's just kind of making

37:13

sure that in season , depending

37:15

on whether you're someone that needs maybe two , three strength

37:17

stimuluses because you're a little bit weak , you're relatively

37:20

untrained and you just need to build that strength base

37:22

, or whether

37:24

you're someone that's very , very

37:26

aerobically poor and you need to be able to

37:28

last 80 minutes , so you do two , three , four

37:30

conditioning pieces , wherever

37:32

you place those in the training week is

37:35

ultimately dependent on what allows

37:37

you to perform on that given Saturday

37:39

, sunday , whenever you play . And I

37:41

think strength , you're

37:43

normally going to take 72 hours to

37:46

fully recover , so you probably want that done

37:48

, game day minus three , whereas

37:50

like anything before that , you're

37:52

quite competent to be able to say you know

37:54

what , come saturday I'll recover . When it comes to

37:56

conditioning stuff , you can do that a little bit later

37:58

. Maybe thursday you can get a good conditioning blast in

38:00

and actually still feel good for a saturday

38:03

. So in

38:05

a long roundabout way there , there is no perfect

38:07

split . There's no perfect kind of thing that we look

38:09

at . It's all about assessing the athlete in front of you , understanding

38:12

their wants , needs and what they're actually capable of doing

38:15

, and then building the

38:17

split and consolidating the stresses

38:19

around that . For performance

38:21

on a on a Saturday , we can dive in a little bit

38:23

more . If you know , there was things

38:25

that you wanted to cover on that .

38:28

Let's dive in a little bit more . If , uh , you know there was things that you wanted to cover

38:30

on that , let's , uh , let's do that as well . So we'll , we'll touch on in season just

38:32

a bit . I know a lot of people listeners are just about

38:34

to finish their season , I think . So we'll

38:37

, we'll touch on off-season strategies as well . But we'll go

38:39

in season now and we'll say , um

38:41

, how do you and

38:44

I'll tell you mine after , if , if

38:46

we don't in , we're not in complete agreement

38:48

, but who knows um you

38:51

say about consolidation of stresses

38:54

. So how much of a how much is rugby

38:56

training factor into that ?

39:00

it depends on what the level people play at

39:03

, and I think rugby

39:05

training looks very different for a lot of my

39:07

athletes . Some people turn up to train

39:09

on a Tuesday and they've got broncos

39:11

, they've got hard conditioning sessions , they've

39:13

got a strength conditioning coach

39:15

that loves to challenge the mental

39:18

toughness aspect of conditioning

39:20

regardless of the thoughts

39:22

on that and that then plays

39:25

a massive role in how we're actually going

39:27

to structure training , because I

39:29

like to follow kind of like a high low model , so

39:31

on high days you keep

39:33

your high days high . So if you're kind of training

39:36

on a tuesday and you've got those

39:38

broncos , you've got high volume running , you've got

39:40

a big , big on

39:42

feet coverage day . Well

39:44

, I wouldn't really place

39:46

a strength session

39:48

for lower body on a wednesday or I wouldn't

39:51

probably place it on a monday . I try

39:53

and get all those things together

39:55

on the same day . So it's like

39:57

, would you rather be shot once or

39:59

twice ? And it's like , well , just

40:02

shoot me once , get it over with . If it's two bullets , just

40:04

shoot me once , rather than kind of leave

40:06

me recover a little bit , go through the surgery , then shoot

40:08

me again , right , but the way that I look at that , that's

40:10

just kind of along in that period

40:12

. Um , is like get the double barrel

40:15

straight now take it , and then

40:17

you've got that period of time to recover . So we've

40:19

got some athletes , though , that they turn up

40:22

, turn up train on a tuesday . They are

40:24

, I'm gonna give a touch . They're

40:26

a little bit of a runabout . Maybe

40:28

they're short on numbers . Eight , nine , ten people

40:30

turning up , they can't really get into

40:33

drills . Whatever it is at

40:35

that point , does it really matter too much

40:37

? I'll beg to

40:39

differ . And then it's more about where they can

40:41

perform in training , because I know that that's going to be the

40:43

biggest base of

40:45

adaptation that that we're going to look at and that

40:47

will be the priority for us then , because , yeah

40:49

, depending on who and what they do

40:51

can drastically change .

40:55

Actually , if we'd had a discussion a couple of years ago , I probably

40:57

would have disagreed with you , because I was very adamant

40:59

with the high-low , like

41:02

you know . Place all your stresses together

41:04

. Do as best you can to do that . The

41:13

reality is that training actually for a lot of people , as you said , is really

41:15

different . You can actually also challenge some

41:17

of the athletes to okay

41:20

, you're only going to play touch or you're only going

41:22

to do whatever drills . You're going to do team run through . I challenge you

41:24

to keep this as aerobic as possible . I

41:30

have some of my guys that wear the whoop straps . I'm like , okay , great , you're going to do team run through . I challenge

41:32

you to keep this as aerobic as possible . So I have some of my guys that wear the whoop straps . I'm like , okay , great , you're going to try

41:34

and keep it over under 150 and if it goes above 150 , your challenge is to get it down as fast as possible after that . So now

41:36

we're staying aerobic , we're not letting it get too high

41:38

. Um , so

41:40

I think then you can manage your stresses

41:42

a little bit easier . You know , then you're not

41:44

getting your highs , so you're not really getting

41:47

shot , you're just getting kind of like stabbed . I

41:49

guess maybe , maybe it's not as deep

41:51

, you know . So you're taking a few more stabs

41:53

, but none of them are really that deep that are

41:55

actually going to get you and you're making that conscious

41:58

effort . So that's when you can do a bit more . You

42:00

know consecutive days of training

42:02

and have them be all right . I would

42:05

still like , because I think of the

42:07

nature of rugby , the nature of strength

42:10

work and whatnot . You still do want

42:12

one real hard stimulus in there

42:14

, but you've got a little bit more room

42:16

to play with that . And

42:18

there's the other area

42:20

where it's just

42:22

practicality . If some people cannot

42:25

go to the gym on their on their

42:28

rugby days , does that mean we just never train

42:30

lower body ? Probably not , right

42:32

.

42:32

So we have to figure that out yeah

42:35

, and that's where I think you can

42:37

kind of get caught in the weeds of like the perfect periodization

42:39

strategy . But , um , I

42:42

read a lot of the the agile period

42:45

model , which is kind of a

42:48

way of managing threats , and that's the

42:50

biggest thing that they look at is like , what's going

42:52

to be the biggest detriment here ? Is it going to be

42:54

training a heavy leg session

42:56

on a Monday before training on a Tuesday , or is

42:59

it not getting any heavy strength stimulus

43:01

regardless throughout the course of the week because of

43:03

a perfect split ? And it's like , well , you

43:06

know what ? I think , if you'd never train lower body

43:08

strength across the course of a rugby season

43:10

, you'd have a pretty poor time

43:12

at trying to manage your performance , because

43:14

just handling a little bit more stress

43:17

in two days , maybe having two high days back to back

43:19

and then two low days to recover

43:21

, and you can easily just make those high days

43:23

not quite as high .

43:24

So , instead of maybe doing three sets maybe it's just

43:26

one top set and then you get out , or maybe

43:28

it's not above 90 , maybe

43:31

we just hit that 85 we keep a rep in

43:33

the tank . Uh , you know you

43:35

, so many people would be so surprised at how

43:38

much or how little volume they really

43:40

need to continually progress

43:42

, not just stay as strong , but

43:44

actually get stronger . It's nowhere near

43:47

as much volume or intensity

43:49

as as you're led to believe . And

43:51

again , that's because who do we like rely

43:53

on for our strength information ? People that only

43:56

care about strength stuff . They're not like

43:58

. If they could do five sets or if they could do a

44:00

hundred sets and get stronger , they would do those hundred

44:02

sets . It's just not an option for

44:04

most people , particularly if you're doing all

44:06

these other , if you've got all these other stresses , uh

44:09

, in your week .

44:10

Um so let's go into

44:12

off season real quick sorry , uh no

44:15

, no , I was

44:17

just saying . That's the beauty of the hybrid trend . I think

44:19

a lot more people now are starting to tap into

44:22

the fact that you need a little bit less

44:24

than what you actually think to actually make progress

44:26

. It's gonna hopefully lead into

44:29

the rugby world at some point .

44:31

I think it's getting there . I hear more people

44:33

talking to me that come into

44:35

my realm and already

44:37

know what Zone 2 is and know what

44:40

aerobic effort is . I'm like , oh , brilliant . And

44:43

then so that makes my job a lot easier

44:45

I was going to switch over to

44:47

off-season , so how does that differ

44:49

to in-season as far as

44:51

, let's say , for what you

44:53

want to work on and then how you'd go about working

44:56

on it ?

44:57

So I think the biggest

44:59

difference maker for me and the way that I

45:01

flip it to my athletes when we're off-season is

45:04

it goes from performance

45:06

to progress . And

45:10

I think in in season is all about how can we maximize performance , not

45:12

progress , and in

45:14

the off season is how can we maximize

45:16

the amount of progress that we're going to make in this

45:18

period of time ? And that is where you

45:21

have a lot more free reign over

45:23

athlete schedules . You have a lot

45:25

more free reign of managing the total

45:27

stresses and you have a lot more free reign

45:29

about how much volume that they can

45:32

actually do and , depending

45:34

on the

45:37

athlete in front of you , a lot of the

45:39

time it's about building

45:42

that kind of strength

45:44

hypertrophy base and optimizing

45:46

body comp throughout that time , just because

45:48

you know if they need to get into a deficit

45:51

. You don't have to worry about performance on

45:53

the on the pitch like struggling if

45:55

they need to get strong because you

45:57

know they've got a one times bodyweight back squat but

46:00

they want to go play back row at a high

46:02

level . Well , you can squat two

46:04

, three times a week if you need to and

46:06

there's not going to be any detriment . I think

46:08

this is where the

46:11

habit really goes from more of a I

46:15

was going to say like a vertical

46:17

integration approach , where it's like that

46:20

, trying to juggle everything at once . But you

46:22

still do that in the off season . But

46:24

you can put , you can make the priority

46:26

a lot more of a priority . You don't have to spend

46:28

as much time and effort into , you

46:31

know , managing the core four that you've got . You

46:33

can really put a lot of your eggs

46:35

in one basket and let one tick over very

46:37

, very , very slowly as long as it's

46:39

still big , and that that's the difference

46:42

and that's the shift .

46:43

Yeah , that's massive , and I almost set

46:46

you up for like poorly with the question

46:48

, because I get told , you know , I

46:50

get asked in fact , I got asked yesterday

46:52

what do I need to work on in the off

46:54

season ? My mate , fuck , if I know , I don't

46:56

know you . It's hard , you know , because

46:58

it's just one of those things where your

47:02

training goals don't change right . If

47:05

you're still slow , you're still slow . Or

47:07

if you're still weak as shit , you're still weak as shit . Or

47:09

if you're still really unfit . People don't

47:12

want to know this because people don't

47:14

like to do cardio , just

47:16

in their heads . If you're

47:18

unfit , you should prioritize

47:20

your fitness in the off season . Just because you're not

47:22

playing a game doesn't mean that you don't need to be

47:24

fit anymore . Like , actually , this is great time

47:27

to build some fitness . Where

47:30

it differs , as you said , is how

47:33

hard you can push that stimulus . So

47:35

the fatigue still needs to be managed in order to progress

47:37

. I like the way you phrase that , though . Performance versus progress . So , when

47:39

you're order to progress , I like the way you phrase

47:42

that , though performance versus progress . So when

47:44

you're trying to progress , you can dig a hole

47:47

and know that , like , eventually

47:49

, when that all fatigue all dissipates , you're

47:52

then going to come out the other side so much better

47:54

for it and whether that be

47:56

, you know , through longer runs or harder

47:58

conditioning sessions or through uh , more

48:02

, just more volume of weights , whatever

48:04

the case may be , you're

48:06

still working the full spectrum

48:09

or the areas of the spectrum that you need to

48:11

emphasize as well , but you're just emphasizing

48:13

that much more and you're able to do much like

48:15

a little bit more because you haven't got that

48:17

lingering saturday game potential

48:20

tuesday where you have to still perform at your best

48:22

because you know you're still vying for your positions

48:24

. It is a lot more about okay , what

48:27

are we working towards ? We can have a lot more of a

48:29

I say a singular

48:31

focus . You can have a couple of different focuses

48:33

, but you can .

48:35

You can not have to worry about

48:37

the , the rugby on the on the weekend , as as

48:40

an athlete no and I

48:42

think that the way that I look at it is

48:44

, whenever it comes to development stuff , you've got

48:46

your pie right and you

48:48

know the . The circle of the pie is

48:51

set to the amount of volume that you can

48:53

actually recover from , and

48:56

in season a big chunk of that

48:58

is taken up by

49:00

tuesday , thursday training game on

49:02

a saturday . I think coming into the

49:04

off season that pie is just so much bigger and

49:06

there's actually more training energy

49:09

that you can allocate it . It's just that . What

49:11

divisions of that pie do you need to dedicate

49:13

? The strength , speed , power , um

49:15

, and conditioning like where do you like

49:17

? And that's where then that

49:20

sets you up for what

49:22

I find the most interesting part as a strength

49:24

coach is like our job is doing

49:26

strength coaching . It's like right , how can we actually

49:28

get you coming to a point now where pre-season

49:30

comes ? You've ironed out all the weaknesses

49:32

that you've had and you get to show

49:35

your coach that you have come back a better

49:37

athlete , because you're not a better rugby player at that point , because

49:39

you probably haven't touched a ball for six

49:41

, eight , ten weeks , but you are a much better

49:43

athlete , and then you can

49:45

take on your training at a better rate , you

49:47

can progress . You can recover from more

49:50

scrums , you can . You know that game

49:52

of touch where you turn and burn , you can actually run

49:54

back the other way . And those are the things , then , that really

49:56

excite me as a strength coach is coming into

49:58

this off season , because I believe it's that the most

50:00

vital time for rugby players

50:02

if they do actually want to make some solid progress

50:05

as an athlete yeah , uh

50:07

, the the only different

50:09

.

50:09

The biggest difficulty I find with offseason is

50:12

that you don't get that validation as

50:14

you've got to wait , like till pre-season

50:16

. So I remember

50:18

the worst time I had with this was with covid . So it's like

50:20

you . Actually , we had to wait months and months

50:23

and months to fucking get to a training session

50:25

. You're like , oh , holy shit , I'm so

50:27

much fitter and like , and

50:29

also comparing to people that have done nothing

50:31

, and that's the other thing . Like day one of preseason is

50:33

a big eye opener for a lot of people , right , cause some

50:36

people don't haven't

50:39

had that gratification in every

50:41

training session , knowing that they're getting better . They

50:44

can see it on their stats , but

50:47

still , is that really going to transfer ? And then

50:49

they see it transfer and then you've got the people that have kind

50:51

of dropped the ball in the off season . Whilst

50:54

we're on that , we'll touch on stats

50:56

real quick , because I know you're quite strong

50:58

with this , so you have goals

51:01

per body weight to

51:03

hit . I've seen you implement

51:05

those a lot on your Instagram , which means obviously you

51:07

implement them with your training . Specific

51:10

key lifts Do you want to touch on those and

51:13

why you think those are really valuable ?

51:16

Yeah , 100% . I think it bleeds on quite

51:18

nicely because

51:21

the influences that I've had and the people

51:23

that I've mentored from their whole

51:25

catchphrase is like , if you're not assessing

51:27

, you're guessing . And I think a lot of the

51:29

times people come into the off-season , like you said

51:32

, and it is that delayed gratification of

51:34

you don't actually get to reap the rewards

51:36

of the hard work that you put in until

51:38

pre-season comes and

51:42

more often than not that's a deterrent for most people to actually fall off the ball , slack off things

51:44

and not actually progress and carry

51:47

on pushing . But that is exactly

51:49

why we track so

51:51

many different key avenues , because if

51:53

you have clear , hard-cut data

51:55

of targets that you need

51:58

to work to , based on

52:00

some of the historical data out there

52:02

from pro rugby players and people

52:04

that have , you know , walked the walk that you've got

52:07

to go down , and then you have your

52:09

data to back up exactly

52:11

where you fall short , where your strengths , your weaknesses

52:13

are , it just simply means

52:15

then that you know you have these

52:17

clear cut targets and this framework to work

52:19

from . So , when it comes to strength

52:22

work , we track eight key lifts . We track

52:24

the front squat , the back squat and the deadlift

52:27

as like the , the three main

52:29

kpi lifts , but then we've also got kind

52:31

of like the trap bar , branching off that . We've

52:33

got some rdl stuff as well and some split

52:35

squat , good mornings as like the full

52:37

base of exercises . And then for the

52:39

upper body we've got a chin up , a

52:42

overhead press , an incline press , a bench

52:44

press and a strict dip . And those

52:46

big eight key lifts

52:48

, for us from like a lower body primary perspective

52:50

, indicate where our strengths

52:53

are and where our weaknesses are , because

52:55

most people may come in with very

52:58

, very poor mobility . They can't

53:00

get into the right positions and their back squat

53:02

way outweighs their front squat , and then

53:04

it's a case of well , you can look at why

53:06

the difference is there and then you

53:08

can plug the weak links in the chain . It may be a case

53:11

of the front row forward , they'd be battered

53:13

, their shoulders can't actually get into the right position

53:15

, they're beaten up and it's like , well , okay

53:18

, that is a test

53:20

lift . We've got the information then to go

53:22

and build your program to work on , because

53:24

we know that you know , based on the ratios

53:26

that that are out there , this should be this

53:29

compared to to this lift , and it's the same

53:31

for the upper body then , and I think the

53:33

reason why we track these is it just

53:35

gives people an objective metric

53:37

to work to , and people love progress if

53:39

they know they're progressing . That's the

53:41

thing that's going to keep them bought in for that off

53:43

season , for that long pre-season or

53:46

even better yet . That's going to be the thing that helps

53:48

them keep like something in their

53:50

program year-round , which I think should

53:52

be the goal for every single rugby player

53:54

is to be able to dominate a good off-season

53:56

, a good pre-season and a good in-season

53:58

, because there's not many elite athletes that

54:01

slack off at any single one of those phases

54:03

, uh , and still make a

54:05

very , very great season .

54:07

Yeah I think having those

54:09

lifts as motivation is is huge

54:11

, especially when you can compare , because

54:14

again , yeah , when we were coming up that

54:16

day , it wasn't anywhere . I I saw I think

54:19

I saw byron kelleher once do like

54:21

I think he had three plates , but this video

54:23

is so fucking pixelated you have no idea what's

54:25

going on . It's it's not even like the . I

54:28

feel like the all blacks right now do like intentional

54:30

dodgy camera work just so you can't see how deep their

54:32

squats are and stuff it's . It's

54:34

funny the way that they do it . But , or

54:37

, uh , england social media seems to

54:39

be pretty good . Wales is getting better and

54:41

scotland's pretty decent , where they're just lifting good tin

54:43

because they know that's going to get reactions and then every every

54:46

uh genius in the comments criticizes

54:48

why it's terrible . But you can see the

54:51

uh , you can see the lifts and you can actually go

54:53

. Okay , this is what this person has done and I actually

54:55

think it's valuable on the opposite side of the

54:57

spectrum as well , where , oh , okay

55:00

, I'm already like front

55:02

rows will love this , because the front rows will be oh

55:04

, I'm more like when they get shocked at

55:06

how little quote-unquote ellis genj lifts

55:08

and you're like , oh , I can already , I'm

55:11

already as strong as ellis genj . Do

55:13

you think you really need to spend five

55:15

of your all five of your sessions

55:17

that you've got available on then continually growing

55:20

strength , or do you think something else is missing in

55:22

your , in your arsenal that could be

55:24

further developed to help you play rugby ? I

55:26

think it helps on that end of the spectrum as

55:28

well . Um , I

55:31

don't know whether you use it as much for that , but

55:33

I think that that can be one . And then the motivator

55:36

, of course , again , all

55:38

these little tools . As we've already said we said it right at

55:40

the start right , we love to see ourselves progress

55:42

and if we can , if we've got the

55:45

key lifts to help us actually

55:47

eye our own progress and see that week to

55:49

week , or even sometimes it has to take

55:51

like month to month for you to see , and

55:53

it's not in just , oh , I squatted

55:55

this exact one RM more

55:58

than the other one RM More

56:00

of the case ends up being like , oh , this

56:02

was a little bit easier , or this felt

56:04

so much smoother , or my total volume

56:07

was significantly

56:09

higher and I didn't realize it . And I think that's

56:11

something I also try and lean on . People is

56:13

, or tell to people to lean on is . It's

56:16

not just about your good days . Your good days are

56:18

great , but there's also your

56:20

. If you can still perform decent enough on your good days

56:23

are great , but there's also your if you can still perform decent enough on your crap days . Compare

56:25

that to your crap days when you weren't doing this

56:27

and you'll

56:29

see a huge difference . But the fact is most

56:31

people don't . They compare their , their crap days

56:33

to two months ago's best

56:36

day . Well , that's that's not .

56:37

That's not how it works no

56:40

, no , and that's the thing

56:42

they say . You want to try and compare

56:44

apples to apples rather than apples to oranges . Whenever

56:48

you kind of compare lifts , whenever

56:50

you compare your best to your worst

56:52

, you're not comparing apples to apples , because readiness

56:55

can fluctuate 18% on any given day

56:57

, which means that your 1RM could be

56:59

18% higher , 18% lower , depending

57:01

on kind of how the day's

57:04

gone . And most people don't

57:06

have the ability to optimize their structure

57:09

for perfect recovery , for kind

57:11

of that timed performance peak where

57:13

you know , kind of , if you was going into

57:15

a pro setup on a monday

57:17

, you're going to do your heavy lower body lift , which

57:19

means that on a tuesday you can kind of relax

57:22

off a little bit . But when people are in work like

57:24

we've got some guys that work 12 hour shifts , that kind

57:26

of you know , manually handle things all

57:28

day Well , you're not going to be able to perform

57:31

at your best if you've done that all day . Or it

57:33

could be one of those freak days where you come in and

57:35

it's just like you know he needs

57:37

off hangovers and it's like , well , it's

57:39

just a good day for you

57:41

.

57:41

I know so many people that have had a hangover and then

57:44

they end up hitting . That it's fucking . I

57:46

think it's just like the the . Your

57:48

inhibitions are just completely gone because you're like , fuck

57:50

it I don't know , like whereas if

57:52

you've , if you've like , taken a two-week taper

57:54

and you're perfectly trying to get build yourself

57:56

up for this different , maybe you just overthink it yeah

58:00

, I don't know what it is , man , that

58:02

is 100 .

58:03

Maybe we're preaching the wrong stuff , maybe just get pissed

58:05

every single day . Maybe the amateurs

58:07

have got it right , they've got it spot

58:10

on . But yeah , it's like like you said

58:12

, you , the more data that you can collect

58:14

on stuff and it's why I'm like big

58:16

on tracking things for our athletes

58:18

is because most people slack off this stuff . I'm

58:20

guilty of it myself is why I've got a coach

58:22

. My coach looks after all my training for me

58:24

, because I'm rubbish at crossing t's and

58:26

dotting the i's . And if

58:29

you can get someone that can help you kind of store

58:32

that data , look through the data , read that

58:34

data and actually realize that you

58:36

are progressing , you are doing the right things , you are pushing

58:38

things on from the whole core

58:40

four , like that's where you'll start

58:42

to get that buy into that program and that's where

58:44

you'll start to want to train harder because you are making

58:47

progress . So the people that step on the

58:49

the weighing scale , they

58:51

see the the scale go up and then

58:53

all of a sudden they're like , oh this , you know what , I'm

58:55

just gonna go bury my head in the domino's pizza

58:57

, feel sorry for myself , nothing's working . Whereas

58:59

if you step on that scale , you feel good

59:02

because that number's come down . You're like , yeah , I'm

59:04

motivated to work , I want to put in a little bit more . I'm

59:06

already seeing that result . I think the more

59:08

you can leverage that with your own training because

59:10

it is one of those tasks that

59:13

emotions play a big

59:15

role in how you perceive the training process

59:17

if you can kind of structure all

59:20

that well , fix the debt to win almost

59:22

in that aspect , you're going to be a lot better

59:24

off yeah , data

59:26

is .

59:27

It's just the biggest thing because it always is

59:30

objective , right

59:32

? So , like , um , I

59:35

think so many people we like

59:37

to get so many different pieces of data

59:39

, just so because I think we

59:41

like to find that win . Right , you said you stand

59:43

on a scale and you're like yes but

59:46

you know , you could have just taken a giant shit and you actually

59:48

fatter than yesterday or whatever

59:50

. You know where . You're not going to be far in a day . But you have a point

59:52

right , you've done nothing better and

59:55

you , you still feel better

59:57

and that still ends up like

59:59

giving you some level of motivation , whereas you could have

1:00:01

done everything right . Just happen

1:00:03

to retain a little bit more water with your

1:00:05

nutrition and you're two kilos heavier

1:00:07

and you're just like , uh , what's the fucking

1:00:09

point ? You know , because we

1:00:11

, we have such an emotional sort

1:00:13

of reaction to that data , so we

1:00:16

want to , rather than say , uh , sack

1:00:18

that off . What you want to do instead is why

1:00:21

don't you weigh ? Like ? Perfect example , if we just continue

1:00:23

using the scale , if you just weigh yourself

1:00:25

every day , it reaffirms

1:00:27

that it's actually just data , right

1:00:29

. So then that big two kilo jump

1:00:31

actually gets taken away and you lose three kilos the

1:00:33

next day because you then piss out all that water

1:00:35

. You feel good . All of a sudden you're like , oh

1:00:37

, I haven't completely messed up because I've got

1:00:39

data , or you . You

1:00:42

then have a bad reaction and that way it goes up

1:00:44

and up and up and up . Still data , right

1:00:46

. Same thing for your lifts , so it

1:00:49

helps you . You're always going to continually

1:00:51

find yourself trending in a certain direction

1:00:53

, so it helps you . Then

1:00:55

compare your apples to apples and know and

1:00:58

not base your decisions on emotion

1:01:00

, but actually that base them on what the physical

1:01:03

body is producing . The

1:01:06

flip side to that is I'm always

1:01:08

giving it a flip side because it's

1:01:10

the whoop . Right , I just said it before

1:01:12

people love to use the whoop and then we

1:01:14

love to track as many pieces of data through the whoop

1:01:16

. And now , all of a sudden , our whoop is telling us that

1:01:18

, even though we're waking up and we're feeling good , right

1:01:21

, we

1:01:25

see , our whoop is telling us that , even though we're waking up and we're feeling good , right , we see , our whoop score is like , our score is 40 . I don't

1:01:27

know what that means , but you know , maybe that's a bad score on whoop . All of a sudden , we're like

1:01:29

crap , I'm tired . That means I'm not going to be able to push myself in

1:01:31

the gym today . That means like this , this and this

1:01:33

and this , and also we start telling ourselves

1:01:36

the story and again it's just another emotional

1:01:38

reaction to data being

1:01:40

given to us . So I

1:01:43

think that's the biggest challenge . I

1:01:45

think it's a difficult challenge for us as

1:01:48

coaches to face , let alone if

1:01:50

you're that person that's given that emotional

1:01:52

reaction to that data . Again

1:01:56

, I've already gone through the examples

1:01:58

of how we tend to

1:02:00

judge our

1:02:03

reactions very poorly because of the emotions

1:02:05

, whereas that's the beauty of coaches

1:02:08

they're not . They're not having those emotions

1:02:10

. They don't think you're a failure because you weigh two kilos

1:02:12

heavier . They don't think you're weak as piss because

1:02:14

your your squat session

1:02:16

didn't go as you'd think it planned . Us

1:02:19

, on the other hand , even us as coaches , right

1:02:21

when we react to it , we we're like , ah crap , like

1:02:24

what's the point of me even squatting ? Maybe I shouldn't just

1:02:26

bother squatting . Maybe I should do something else . Or

1:02:28

maybe I should just do front squats or completely

1:02:30

sack off squatting . Maybe my femurs are too long . Instead

1:02:33

, I'm just going to do Zurcher reverse lunges

1:02:35

for a year instead .

1:02:43

I'll help my squat out somehow . You know it's so , so true , and I think it's that flip side of the whole

1:02:45

when a measure becomes a target , it ceases to be a good measure . And

1:02:47

I think a lot of people

1:02:49

kind of we set almost

1:02:53

measures of physical

1:02:55

strength , we set measures of

1:02:57

uh , power , speed

1:02:59

, whatever it may be , and then people

1:03:02

base their whole kind of outcome

1:03:04

of success on that certain thing

1:03:06

and it's like , well , no , your goal is to be better at

1:03:08

rugby , it's not to , you

1:03:11

know , hit numbers . It may be . If

1:03:13

your goal is to hit these numbers , then great , you

1:03:15

know what , we'll kind of work towards those and

1:03:17

if you feel good doing it , it's fine . But it's

1:03:19

always making sure that whatever

1:03:22

decisions that you do make , is

1:03:24

that the whole cliche of whatever makes the ball

1:03:26

go faster , and I think that's that kind of whole

1:03:28

non-emotional view to it as well . And that's

1:03:30

why a coach is important , is they can pull you to the things

1:03:32

that actually matter , rather

1:03:34

than you know your group score . We had a lad like

1:03:37

I've told him to take his group off on a Thursday night

1:03:39

, because as soon as Friday comes he's like I

1:03:41

can see my score dipping , I can see my score dipping . And

1:03:43

then on a Saturday he wakes up and he's like , oh

1:03:45

, my recovery score's down and we tried so many

1:03:47

different things and it was a case of we

1:03:50

tried moving , took his primer session

1:03:52

away . We ended up , you know , moving his strength

1:03:54

stuff very early in the week , tried

1:04:02

all these things apart from just being like does he fucking whoops go matter that much

1:04:04

, just take it off . Yeah , how do you actually feel ? Yeah , and he was like yeah , you

1:04:06

know what ? I do feel a little bit sluggish on these days , but

1:04:08

since we've been doing this , I feel a lot better . So I

1:04:11

think it was just a story that he was telling himself as well

1:04:13

, because it's like the data was reaffirming that

1:04:15

thing .

1:04:16

I had a lad sean , like literally

1:04:18

last week , uh , to

1:04:20

sack off his whoop , shout out to Sean , he

1:04:22

, uh , he , he said I've not

1:04:24

renewed my membership anymore , I'm done with it because he

1:04:26

would the same thing , right , but but the

1:04:29

worst one with him was during pre-season

1:04:31

. He's like , oh , my recovery scores all the way down . I'm

1:04:33

like , mate , you're in week one of pre-season

1:04:35

, you've just come from a holiday where

1:04:37

you've traveled to this to New Zealand , right

1:04:40

, it's about as far away as you can travel . Of

1:04:42

course , your score's low , mate , that's the point

1:04:44

. And he's like , oh , yeah , you're right . And

1:04:46

he's like , fuck , but I'm trying to do

1:04:48

all this work and my score's low . I'm like , if you're doing all this

1:04:51

work , you're not going to have a good whoop score . It's just

1:04:53

how it is . And

1:05:07

then , yeah , you wake up that you've had a bad sleep and so , yeah , he ended up just sacking off as well it's . And , yeah , you should still get a good night's sleep

1:05:09

, but maybe , instead of and and still somehow find a measure of tracking that . But maybe your measure

1:05:11

, instead of having this , uh , whoop score , that algorithm , algorithmically

1:05:13

is actually shown in the science

1:05:15

not to be the best , maybe you

1:05:17

just say okay , how many hours can I be in bed

1:05:20

? Because I've been saying this

1:05:22

for a long time because

1:05:24

of a book , not the Matthew

1:05:26

Walker one , it was like the OG , I can't remember , I think

1:05:28

it was just called Sleep . I've

1:05:31

had the guy on the podcast , I forget his name . But most

1:05:35

people's biggest problem is just it's not

1:05:37

the perfect bedtime setup or the perfect

1:05:39

like , getting your perfect temperature or

1:05:41

whatever it is . It's actually just being in bed long

1:05:43

enough and then winding down before bed

1:05:46

. Most people don't do that , so

1:05:48

why don't you just track okay

1:05:50

, how many hours am I in bed ? And

1:05:52

if you get that to enough , you you're

1:05:54

. You'll probably find that like tell

1:05:57

me if I'm wrong , call me out if I'm wrong .

1:05:59

You , but most 99 of

1:06:01

people are going to find that all of a sudden , their sleep

1:06:03

is fine and they recover much better 100%

1:06:07

, but I think it's that social media landscape , yet

1:06:09

again , that feeds the perfect morning

1:06:13

routine , the perfect bedtime routine , wanking

1:06:15

off in a nice bath , having this perfect

1:06:17

recovery thing . The

1:06:20

whole problem is , if you're training

1:06:23

hard , you're pushing yourself , you're

1:06:25

purposely overreaching

1:06:28

and doing a little bit more than your

1:06:30

body's capable of recovering from in

1:06:32

a short time frame , your recovery score

1:06:34

is going to go down like just except .

1:06:36

you want that that's a good thing . It means you're going to get

1:06:38

better .

1:06:39

That is , that's the . The byproduct

1:06:41

of actually having a good S&C program

1:06:43

is having days where your recovery

1:06:45

is going to dip , like today

1:06:47

. On a Monday Tuesday , I do back-to-back

1:06:50

conditioning strength work as

1:06:52

well , so I've had four sessions in two

1:06:54

days . I know for a fact today my

1:06:57

recovery score would be down if I actually

1:06:59

cared for that . My body weight is up because of inflammation

1:07:02

, things like that of just pushing myself , but

1:07:04

I know towards the tail end of the week my body weight

1:07:06

is going to start to drop , I'm going to feel better and

1:07:09

naturally , I'm going to be able to have another hard session , probably

1:07:11

on Friday , which is the way that I've structured my

1:07:13

training . So yeah , it's the

1:07:16

problem with the silver bullet yet

1:07:18

again .

1:07:27

People are like well , what the silver bullet ? Yet again , people like what's the missing piece of my

1:07:29

recovery ? Okay , so now I'm going to ask people if they want to find them the missing , the silver bullet

1:07:31

, the missing piece , the , the secret source , the solution to all their problems . They want to

1:07:33

find it by following you on social media , I think , because

1:07:35

I think you present it on the daily right . So how

1:07:37

can they go about following you on instagram ? Is

1:07:40

it ? Is it on the instagram you use now ?

1:07:42

uh , yeah , it is on the instagram . I'm trying to build into

1:07:45

getting more of a youtube

1:07:47

presence as well . That's my next adventure

1:07:49

, so I'll probably try and pick your brains on that , because I know you've

1:07:51

been there , done that and they're currently wearing the

1:07:53

t-shirt . Yeah , but

1:07:55

yeah , if you want to find me on instagram , it's joel

1:07:57

harry's dot strength solution , um

1:08:00

, and that is pretty much the only place

1:08:02

you'll find me . You may see a

1:08:04

tiktok with under that as well , but

1:08:06

for the time being , that's . That's literally

1:08:08

uh , the main hub of uh where

1:08:11

you'll find this man , hopefully dropping

1:08:13

knowledge bombs daily yeah , I'll

1:08:15

.

1:08:15

Uh , I'll obviously put it in the show notes . Um

1:08:18

, when you get your youtube up and running , I'll put it in the

1:08:20

show notes if you already got it . Like the channel

1:08:22

started and you're just gonna start to put it on no

1:08:25

, no , yeah , I'm uh .

1:08:27

I'm in the pre-contemplation phase where I'm

1:08:29

just like you know what I want to try and make this work

1:08:31

. So I'll uh definitely drop you a message

1:08:33

to see how you get things started do

1:08:36

it , mate .

1:08:36

Um , I've enjoyed chatting anyway , so I

1:08:38

think you're good , you'll be fine for it . Um , I

1:08:41

think you've clearly got

1:08:43

enough knowledge well thought out with this stuff . Uh

1:08:46

, isn't and it's not just like book knowledge , it's clearly

1:08:48

like practicality knowledge as well , which only

1:08:50

comes from doing the thing

1:08:52

. So I've really enjoyed having this , having

1:08:54

you on , mate . I've enjoyed having this chat . Um

1:08:56

, I'm sure I'll get you back on again . We We'll have another

1:08:59

chat in the future . Listeners

1:09:02

, go ahead and go follow him on Instagram . It's

1:09:05

not . Your videos are really good

1:09:07

as well , man . I enjoy them , but

1:09:10

it's not just the spammy stuff . In

1:09:12

fact , it's never spammy stuff . I don't think I've

1:09:14

ever seen a post of yours where I've gone . No

1:09:17

, that's wrong so far . There

1:09:19

will be a day and I'll call you

1:09:22

back .

1:09:22

I look forward to that day . But no , I appreciate you

1:09:24

having me on Tom . Anyway , thank you very much , mate . No-transcript

1:09:28

.