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for terms. This

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is The Runthrough. I'm Chloe Mel. And

0:23

I'm Cho Manadi. And what a show we have for

0:25

you today. Oh my God, I can't believe it,

0:28

but we've got Marc Jacobs. I truly, my

0:30

jaw fell to the floor when I found out

0:32

that he said yes to this. And he

0:34

was here in the flesh. I saw his security badge

0:36

ID photo. I

0:41

can't wait to listen to this interview. I

0:43

know. I heard it was quite

0:46

a blockbuster interview. We have Nicole Phelps, our

0:48

Vogue runway colleague right here in the flesh

0:50

with us also today. And it is right

0:52

on the eve of New York Fashion Week.

0:55

So Nicole has many important things

0:57

to be doing. But Nicole,

1:00

tell us about what Marc was like. And

1:02

also you just went to the show on

1:04

Friday evening. He

1:06

started posting about his 40th

1:09

anniversary in January. So we

1:11

were all, you know, we all had a

1:14

hunch that it would be a big, big

1:16

moment. But of course, Marc Jacobs shows are

1:18

always really big. And

1:20

it was a show that

1:22

really pushed limits in terms

1:24

of silhouette and of course,

1:26

in terms of those insane

1:28

bouffant wigs and the

1:30

clown shoes that some of the

1:33

models were wearing. And the set

1:35

was punctuated by this

1:38

art piece, a giant folding table

1:40

and chair by this artist named

1:42

Robert Therian. And so big

1:44

that the models walked under it as

1:46

they came out from backstage. And

1:50

the vibe felt sort of like a

1:52

dollhouse. I think, you know, a 40th

1:55

anniversary is a really big deal. And I

1:57

think he's been thinking a lot about... what

2:00

he's done in his inner

2:02

child, what he's accomplished in these 40

2:04

years, and what he still wants to do. He's

2:07

not done with fashion yet, he has more to

2:09

say. And we got to talk about the big

2:11

hair. It does feel like suddenly beauty

2:13

is the moment, right, in these

2:15

shows. The doll beauty. Oh yeah,

2:17

it's doll beauty, the doll skin,

2:20

now the doll hair. Well, it's

2:22

also Dita Blair hair, but to each

2:24

his own. But also think about Miley

2:27

Cyrus at the Grammys. I know. I

2:29

think something's changing. I feel... The higher

2:31

the hair, the closer it is. Big,

2:40

almost regal display at the Dune

2:42

premieres around the world. I know,

2:44

I know. For those of us

2:47

who pray at the altar of

2:49

Zendaya and Timote and Florence Pugh,

2:52

they were really turning it out

2:55

across the globe. And it

2:57

was so nice to see

2:59

young British design talent represented on the

3:01

carpet, because I think it is hard

3:03

as a young designer to get a

3:06

word in edgeways with the red

3:08

carpet, because obviously you're competing with

3:11

these big brands. It was so

3:13

refreshing to see Florence Pugh in

3:15

Standing Ground, which is

3:17

a kind of almost semi-couture brand

3:19

in the UK by this

3:22

young designer, Michael Stewart, who's amazing.

3:25

She wore this long, very

3:27

fluid white

3:30

dress that was gathered. And what's

3:32

so special about Michael's work

3:34

is that he sort of... It's all very textures,

3:36

and he embeds these, I think

3:38

they're almost like beads into the

3:40

dresses. So it has this almost

3:42

like a spinal feel. And

3:45

then... And then tell me everything about

3:47

Zendaya's outfit. Yeah, I mean

3:49

Zendaya's look was pretty incredible. It's like

3:51

this beautiful crop top

3:53

and high slit skirt that had

3:56

these padded details along the shoulder,

3:58

and it was this... in different

4:00

shades of gray and black and red. And

4:02

then there were these circular details on the

4:04

skirt too. And it felt very

4:06

kind of futuristic almost. It

4:09

was very, it felt very dune-like

4:11

and... Totally. Yeah. For me

4:13

it was like volcano but make it fashion.

4:16

It was, exactly. And who was this

4:18

designer, Chama? People were very excited, but

4:21

I was not familiar with them. Yeah,

4:23

young British, Nigerian,

4:25

Brazilian designer by the name

4:28

of Tori Shiju Dumi. And

4:31

she presented her collection in Paris actually, her

4:33

debut. So a lot of people, there were

4:35

all eyes on her then. I think it

4:37

was last season, if I'm

4:39

correct. And so we're all kind

4:42

of looking forward to what she does

4:44

next. And that's what we love about

4:46

Zendaya and Louroche who works with her

4:48

on her fashion looks. I mean,

4:50

she's so fearless with what she

4:52

wears and she can pull off the most

4:54

amazing looks. She really can pull off anything

4:57

but actually takes advantage of that. Yeah. And

4:59

then exciting news

5:01

for the Vogue office earlier this week was

5:03

that Zach Posen is now the creative director

5:06

of Gap, which everyone was not

5:08

expecting to hear. No,

5:10

from wedding dresses to white T-shirts. Let's see what

5:12

he does. Oh, look at you, Chama. You wrote

5:14

the headline rights itself. Ah! Chama,

5:19

we're so excited to see you here in a

5:21

few days. Any

5:23

plans besides shows for your big New York

5:25

City trip? I feel

5:27

like there's not gonna be much time for anything

5:29

but shows. What are

5:31

you excited about? Which shows? I'm

5:33

excited for Proenza. I'm excited to see Deatima.

5:35

I'm not here for the entire run, but

5:37

it's always nice to get a kind of

5:39

feel for New York. A taste of New

5:42

York Fashion Week? A taste of New York Fashion

5:44

Week. How about you? I

5:46

think same thing. I'm excited to, I'm

5:50

excited for Altuzarra's 15th anniversary. He's

5:52

having a very intimate, small show.

5:54

Joseph sent out all the invitations

5:56

himself. I always love a Michael Kors

5:58

show because they feel like a big, big show. big sort

6:01

of event. Tori's always fun.

6:03

Oh, I love Tori shows. I'm sad to be

6:05

missing. I'm not going to be able to see

6:07

my dear friend that Sheva or

6:09

Raul Lopez's luah show. They're

6:12

closing out the week, aren't they? But

6:14

I'm sure they'll be amazing. And

6:17

Willy, Tovaria, everyone here is very excited about.

6:19

Oh gosh, Willy, how could we forget? Yes,

6:22

there's a lot of excitement about that.

6:28

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ebay.com for turns. And

7:16

we're back. I think we should just dive

7:18

right into Nicole and Marche's convo, right? I

7:20

mean, I'm very excited to hear this. Yes,

7:22

let's dive right in. I

7:26

am here with Marc Jacobs, who is

7:28

coming off a fabulous show last Friday.

7:30

You probably saw it all over your

7:32

Instagram feeds over the weekend, because the

7:34

pictures were incredible and it was a

7:37

milestone moment. Marc's 40th anniversary

7:39

in fashion. So Marc, welcome. Thank

7:41

you. Welcome. So

7:44

congratulations on your anniversary.

7:46

I want to start off by talking about the

7:49

fact of 40 years. It's a real milestone.

7:53

And longevity is something we talk about a

7:55

lot. It's not easy to achieve. How

7:58

does it feel this moment? I have

8:00

so much to say on this subject.

8:02

First of all, I don't think me

8:05

and the design team, we weren't really

8:09

worried, concerned, thinking

8:12

about this anniversary. I mean, there are

8:14

other things going on within the company

8:16

to celebrate the 40th anniversary, which will

8:18

come soon. But

8:21

we just thought, like we do with every season,

8:23

we've got to work on a collection and a

8:25

show. During

8:27

the process, there may have

8:30

been things that came up

8:32

that reminded me and

8:34

us of this big

8:36

birthday. I

8:40

go down memory lane very easily. So

8:43

of course, thinking about all

8:46

these years and how it started and

8:48

what was first, like this

8:50

was the first for me, it started

8:52

all with a sweater, and then

8:54

this was the first bag we ever designed, and this

8:56

was the first time we did that. So

8:59

I think the knowing of

9:01

the anniversary triggered

9:04

me into thinking about these kind

9:06

of firsts or collections

9:08

that I always appreciated.

9:13

And so you did this collection of

9:15

pieces that it was sort of like an

9:17

Easter egg experience for all of us,

9:19

triggering our own memories. I

9:21

wasn't familiar with the artist Robert Theron,

9:24

the sculptor who

9:26

made these pieces. And

9:29

it was a giant folding chair, folding

9:31

table and a chair at the back of

9:33

the runway. And four folding chairs. And

9:35

so how did you encounter his work?

9:38

And I'm curious, did

9:40

it spark the dollhouse aspect

9:42

of the clothes? So

9:46

the first time I saw a piece by Robert

9:49

was at the Broad in Los

9:51

Angeles, and it's a wooden dining

9:53

table. And I

9:55

mean, as an art collector

9:57

and art lover, I experienced it.

10:00

experience what I call a primitive

10:02

connection to certain works and I Can't

10:05

really articulate it as well as I'd

10:07

like to but I get this sensation

10:10

and this feeling Like

10:12

of home like some kind

10:14

of comfort That's you

10:16

know, that's what I loved about

10:18

this dining table it I

10:20

just looked up at it with wonder and

10:22

I think Since

10:25

this show has happened I've read a

10:27

couple of things by different journalists and

10:30

They've pointed out what my

10:33

wonder is and it is that of

10:35

a young person who

10:37

looks up Two

10:41

things whether it's his mother getting dressed

10:43

or whether it's the scale of a

10:45

piece of furniture with kind of awe and

10:50

For people who who weren't there. I think we

10:52

should talk about sort of the perspective

10:55

Skewing nature of what

10:57

happened. These pieces are so big that the models

11:00

could literally walk underneath

11:02

them And so it it

11:04

sort of did something to your eye as you as

11:06

you watch them from the back of the runway Come

11:09

at you. They looked like almost in miniature

11:11

a little bit Yeah,

11:14

it's a very long runway. Yes. It

11:17

was from Park Avenue to or Lexington

11:19

to Park very long Yeah, which I

11:22

liked I don't know I I thought of

11:25

the sculpture also In

11:28

relation to the space in which we put

11:30

it and the armory is so enormous I

11:33

mean what I always find luxurious about showing

11:35

there Is this idea

11:37

of creating a very very intimate

11:39

show in the center of

11:42

this enormous space? It's a city

11:44

block, you know all the way around

11:46

and a big city block. I

11:48

find emotionally that

11:53

Working that way or showing that way creates

11:56

a kind of Emotion

11:58

for me of life. Ik again

12:00

being very small. Because.

12:03

The surrounding is so huge, I kind

12:05

of like that feeling again. I think

12:08

it's talk about age or time passing

12:10

and all that stuff. I always wish

12:12

I could look at things now the

12:14

way I did when I was like

12:17

a nine year old kid who couldn't

12:19

wait to get back to school closed

12:21

because. Everything was so

12:23

monumental. Is. Part of the point

12:25

of what you're doing trying to get us to

12:28

feel that sense of wonder to. I.

12:30

Always say like I have you

12:33

know, seven minutes or ten minutes

12:35

to entertain a group of people

12:37

that are. Pretty. Hard to.

12:40

Get. To you know some of them

12:42

Because now as to say that the

12:44

audience I know very few people in

12:47

that audience you that there's a handful

12:49

or two handfuls of people in that

12:51

audience of two hundred. that I know

12:53

the rest. Feet. With

12:55

the exception of a few friends I don't

12:57

know, I don't know who they are anymore.

13:00

I don't know who the new editors are

13:02

or who the influencers are. Whatever. So I

13:04

go about. Trying. To tell the

13:06

story. And yes, what I'm looking for

13:08

is some kind of emotional. Reaction.

13:12

In this case, Wonder Do Seal

13:14

wasn't a react since it sort

13:16

of the world around us Earth

13:19

is it a response to the

13:21

state assassin, the speed with which.

13:23

We are sort of moving. Through

13:25

things and consuming things. Yeah,

13:27

that's a favorite. Like.

13:30

Of assassin people like oh it was response

13:32

to this in this war of the world

13:34

and you know I mean I might not

13:37

be very popular for saying this, but and

13:39

maybe people. Not. Agree.

13:41

But I live in a fashion world,

13:43

right? Which is a bubble. And it's

13:46

real bubble. It exists within a bigger

13:48

picture on, but it's a tiny little

13:50

bubble and I'm okay with that. I

13:52

mean, my job is to be creative

13:55

and to share. The results

13:57

of my creativity. with

13:59

the little tiny microcosm of a

14:01

world. And that's cool. It's

14:04

great. Does it save, help, or change anything

14:06

that's going on in the greater world? Absolutely

14:10

not. But it's contributing something

14:13

beautiful or interesting. And I

14:15

think that is benevolent, right? That to

14:18

me, I mean, I don't need to

14:20

apologize for not being in cancer

14:23

research or a politician. You

14:26

know, those are somebody else's interests and somebody

14:28

else's jobs. I can do my part as

14:30

much as possible to be

14:33

contributing to the good of the world. And

14:35

I think part of that comes from being

14:37

creative and putting that creativity out there. It

14:39

would be wrong to say I'm not

14:41

influenced by the world at large, because I

14:44

am. I'm a person in that world.

14:46

And I see hideous things

14:48

happening in politics. And then all

14:51

the areas that we know that are just

14:54

super screwed up. So it

14:56

does affect me. And I'm not sure it affects the

14:58

clothes. Hmm. Well,

15:00

your creativity has definitely affected me. And

15:03

as I was preparing for this, and

15:05

I was thinking about my earliest Marc

15:08

Jacobs shows, and I crashed the show,

15:11

I think it was spring 1998, where

15:13

you played Bittersweet Symphony. And

15:16

I felt when I was there that it was exactly

15:18

where I wanted to be. And

15:21

I think that you create these

15:23

kinds of really strong emotional reactions

15:25

in designers. And I

15:27

would love to know, do you

15:30

do your collections

15:32

for yourself or for your audience? Okay.

15:36

So ever since I

15:38

was a kid,

15:43

I performed in some

15:45

way, whether it was bringing home an

15:47

ashtray I made in the ceramics workshop

15:50

at summer camp, or I

15:52

loved To make things. I

15:54

really do love to make things. And that

15:57

I do for me. The process of making

15:59

is for me. But what I

16:01

make his for the audience? Absolutely.

16:03

One hundred percent. No doubt about

16:05

it, I. I. Read

16:07

the reviews. Ah, I look to see

16:09

who's posting now what I used to

16:12

say about Close when we were selling

16:14

them you know, to more stores and

16:16

stuff. Is that the ultimate. Compliment.

16:19

The completion of the process to be

16:21

on the street. The see somebody carrying

16:23

your bag, wearing your pea coat. Whatever

16:26

cause like Without that you're processes and

16:28

done. It's just like. Part.

16:30

Of the process. Well

16:33

speaking of the street, one thing

16:35

I have noticed is your tote

16:37

bags. They really are everywhere you

16:39

know. I walk by them, I

16:41

see young people with them on

16:43

the subway and so how does

16:45

it feel to be. Sort.

16:48

Of back on everybody's lips in the

16:50

sense that you know they're toting around

16:52

that a logo bags. In our name

16:54

on it. Yeah, I mean it's I'm

16:56

grateful for it. First of all, It.

16:59

Really brings a lot. A lot of

17:01

business, you know, and that's. I'm

17:03

lucky because I couldn't do the show

17:06

if it didn't With if it weren't

17:08

for the business that we did with

17:10

a more democratic priced products and it

17:12

does, It is very. Weird

17:14

for me at my age and having

17:16

been through so many different things you

17:18

know there was a time worth or

17:20

Venetian bag became extremely popular is played

17:22

a role in the Devil Wears Prada

17:24

intellects. It was an iconic kind of

17:27

it bag when people used to call

17:29

a bag and it bag. I don't

17:31

know if they still do that but

17:33

I I was. Surprised.

17:35

And shocked that this bags. Became

17:37

so popular or is so

17:40

popular in I couldn't couldn't

17:42

have imagined happening. Kind

17:44

of. Again, I just felt we'd

17:46

be like an older, like out of

17:48

the way kind of brand. Were other

17:50

editors my age who have been through

17:53

this before would relate, but nobody else

17:55

younger. think about

17:57

that a little bit because there is that

18:00

We all

18:02

accept the fact that we all

18:04

age, designers age, and they do

18:06

become the older generation, and it's

18:08

time for new people to make

18:11

a mark. But you have a

18:13

unique ability, proven

18:15

by this bag, but also proven

18:17

by the emotions that are

18:20

triggered by your shows of really

18:24

staying in

18:26

the current moment, of the current moment. How

18:29

do you manage it? I struggle,

18:32

honestly. I struggle with this

18:34

idea of being relevant and

18:36

getting old, or being old, I should

18:38

say. I'm not getting older, but

18:42

I'm not done. I still want to tell

18:44

stories, and I still want to work in fashion.

18:46

So even if the world is

18:48

on to the next younger thing, I

18:50

just don't want to give up because

18:52

I'm older. But

18:54

I do really struggle with it. I'm on Zoom

18:57

meetings with my shrink twice a week,

19:00

and we talk a lot about it.

19:04

The world has changed so drastically.

19:06

I never thought I'd be that

19:08

person who was

19:11

shocked that somebody 40 doesn't

19:13

know the references I'm making,

19:15

or somebody 20 has

19:18

no idea of what I'm talking about when I

19:20

start talking about the things I love or the

19:22

people who've inspired me. It's

19:26

a really strange position to be in. And besides

19:29

the digital age

19:32

and my kind of luddite

19:35

sensibility to anything electronic or digital

19:37

or computers, whatever, I don't even

19:39

know how to refer to it,

19:42

I sound like what my

19:45

grandmother would say when

19:47

she'd say, like, well, in my day. I

19:49

guess one thing that makes it

19:51

okay for me when I think about it is that our

19:54

references are what make us us,

19:57

right? Yes, yes, Definitely..

20:00

The lately and my memories and my

20:02

references has great meaning and important to

20:04

me and there are some seasons as

20:06

to say I think. That.

20:10

One of the most joyous things about

20:12

this last show for me is that

20:14

I was. I felt I didn't have

20:16

to apologize or hide or feel ashamed

20:19

of celebrating some of these references or

20:21

means this time. even when we're doing

20:23

like the hair and makeup I was

20:26

like here's a picture of Dd Ryan,

20:28

Here's a picture of Dyson Frost Ces

20:30

a picture of it out Still Blair

20:32

like I'd didn't care of. Like Caesar's.

20:35

Among. The references. You know. To.

20:38

Close. A little bit in this collection

20:40

there was a lot of ah I guess

20:42

you could even say strange constructions. Right! The

20:44

shapes, the proportions yeah what what turned you

20:47

on about those shape and we were be

20:49

in the fitting room and out look at

20:51

some things are as where he just of

20:53

his the in charge of women's design and

20:55

his great designer and we worked together for

20:57

so many years by would walk into the

21:00

sitting room and he'd been there matt Ryan

21:02

who work with him and. He

21:04

would see a dumb pencil skirt,

21:06

but the waistband was like floating

21:09

about two inches away from the

21:11

body like South. Sides.

21:13

And back and I would be like

21:15

that's the magic that we want this.

21:17

like it. I mean it had him

21:19

pads inside it was bonded to me

21:21

a Brits. There was so much in

21:24

or construction going on. But. When

21:26

you look to that you thought you got. A

21:29

young lady who's to skirt is just

21:31

floating around her body and the up.

21:33

I mean that that excites me. The

21:35

idea which we agreed on really from

21:37

the beginning was that we wanted to

21:39

look at. Basic things

21:42

you know kind of everyday things either

21:44

every day to us throughout our our

21:46

ears or every day just like what

21:49

people call classic pieces. Closing are settling

21:51

Sweater a pencil Skirts Assessed things like

21:53

that and we wanted to keep it

21:55

like a very dress maker approach like

21:58

an old school dressmaker for me when

22:00

I used to wear a dressmaker it's

22:02

like what my grandmother when my grandmother

22:05

needed a skirt made she would buy

22:07

some fabric from Jerry Brown on Fifty

22:09

Seventh Street said the most beautiful fabrics

22:12

and she take it to her dressmaker

22:14

who it makes a skirt for her

22:16

sixteen inches from the floor with a

22:18

one inch waist that like she was

22:21

so specific about it and I I

22:23

think back to some of our early

22:25

shows and you know that was a

22:28

word I used to use an awful

22:30

lot like. It. When

22:32

we started playing with the scale of buttons

22:34

and how tiny the shoulder was in the

22:36

way you said in the sleeve it was

22:39

like naive was not sophisticated. In. Terms

22:41

of them: make of the clothing. What

22:43

I think is I'm looking at something

22:45

very, very simple and the complexities of

22:48

it are very beautiful and away and

22:50

that we could kind of carry something

22:52

off. That. Comes across as

22:55

light two side seems, you know,

22:57

But knowing that in such a

22:59

specific complicated situation guess it's kind

23:01

of it and achievement in the

23:03

way it is because. The

23:05

pieces, as he say, are simpler,

23:08

simple, adjacent, but they're very distinctive

23:10

because. Of though the set of the

23:12

shape and the proportions of. Them. I think

23:15

when ah, when people see those sweaters,

23:17

women or men wearing that sweaters, that

23:19

will be very easy for people to

23:21

say oh yes, Marc Jacobs. Put those

23:23

on the runway for spring. Twenty

23:25

Twenty Four because there is this

23:27

distinctiveness to the pieces. I.

23:30

Wonder you know sometimes as someone who

23:32

buys a lot, assassin or. By.

23:34

Some fashion pieces I know.

23:37

I always. I'm always

23:39

drawn to that kind of. Strong.

23:42

Peace in A Collections. When.

23:44

You look at the collection that you. Just. Put on

23:46

the Runway. What pieces do things make?

23:48

Those statements. They all made it. I

23:51

think I'm partial right now to those

23:53

settling sweaters. I think the same came

23:55

out. Particularly. Well and

23:57

they read very well. I

24:00

like to. There was a black Shifts that

24:02

had very large pilots and I'm. A

24:05

really love that cause one of the other things

24:07

were looking at was this beautiful painting by Alex

24:09

Cats and it kind of came as an afterthought.

24:11

I mean again, it came up during the process

24:14

but it was just all these women and and

24:16

the painting. His style of painting is so flat

24:18

and they were all in the black chest and

24:20

I just thought like you know there's nothing better

24:22

than a good black cocktail dress like it just

24:25

doesn't get better than that. Comes

24:31

down luxury even get said they're making

24:33

sure the things you love and one

24:35

I checked by oxford. It's not just

24:37

any experts say a real people

24:39

who really love these things. And

24:42

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24:44

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24:46

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24:49

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24:51

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24:53

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24:55

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24:58

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25:00

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25:02

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25:04

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25:09

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25:28

So. Let's let's just a little

25:30

bit and talk about your generation

25:32

and the odds. Let's talk about

25:34

pre pre grunge. You were a

25:36

as a New York kid and

25:38

at the clubs in the eighties.

25:40

can you paint a picture. Of

25:42

your Tribe are days. So I got this

25:44

job at the store that had all this

25:47

great designer fasten mean that's why I wanted

25:49

to work there cause I wanted to be

25:51

around the labels like a wanna to be

25:53

around with Glare good Cia Yohji Yamamoto like

25:56

it. just excited, Make bright and I got

25:58

this job and then I was going to

26:00

close those. Going to a rock and roll

26:02

club on the Upper West side called Hurrah

26:05

and I started going to Studio Fifty Four.

26:07

At sixteen I was in the High School

26:09

of Art and Design. I was dressing up

26:11

wearing like jumpsuits were itself like three shoulder

26:14

pads to make it look like it was

26:16

maguire but it was really from Saturday's generation

26:18

at Blooming Specialists and I went through a

26:21

bunch of lox when I was younger. I

26:23

mean I guess I still do that but

26:25

yeah I mean when dad died my her

26:27

arms and I was wearing this kind of

26:30

like futuristic. Jumpsuits In the next, I was

26:32

wearing tiny little bow ties and my hair

26:34

like I had my hair super super long.

26:37

I started wearing Robert Lee Maurice art wear

26:39

jewelry at seventeen I met Cons: I Yamamoto

26:41

through my roommate who was working for Robert.

26:43

The Maurice who probably Maurice was doing the

26:46

jury for concise Cons: I asked if I

26:48

was seventeen and he asked me if I

26:50

would. Be. Creative

26:52

and organize some kind of after party

26:55

which he typically did after show and

26:57

I was You know I was super

26:59

excited for that opportunity. So I sound

27:01

of this market on the upper west

27:03

side that would allow him to rent

27:05

the fish market with the fish in

27:08

it because the same as his collection

27:10

that season was. Cons: I the restaurant

27:12

and it had like. Plastic.

27:14

Transparent plastic pockets which had like rubber

27:16

sushi and that's so I had this

27:18

idea. I made this party este Joey

27:21

areas who was a friend of Concise

27:23

to perform with his group strange party

27:25

they played like them pretended they were

27:27

playing guitar and this huge huge business

27:29

fix. it was so weird and then

27:31

I made these necklaces out of aquarium

27:33

to being with plastic bags and each

27:36

one has like a live goldfish that

27:38

it's a the guess scots or use

27:40

it was crazy you know So I

27:42

was very kind of out. There I

27:44

met with out in New York city

27:46

and they're starting to meet people in

27:48

fashion and I was very popular. it

27:51

survive because all these different people famous

27:53

not famous would come to me and

27:55

I guess it was my energy and

27:57

my again my wonder my curiosity that's

27:59

us. Upheld me forward and

28:01

I guess that was really attracted to people.

28:04

Who still is hop? So.

28:07

And he went Parsons. I

28:09

went to Parse and Sadie and yeah I

28:11

agree. Yes I did not get my degree.

28:14

super sleuths bomb but I did complete the

28:16

program. May a new server getting your degree

28:18

right on the streets of New York and

28:20

at the and at the store. I mean

28:22

a was all these people yeah one of

28:25

my teachers who I liked very much and

28:27

I know she was very fond me too

28:29

but sometimes they didn't mean it. To.

28:31

Be but sometimes he would. Reply

28:34

to me like you are so jaded and

28:36

I never thought I was jaded. Axis was

28:38

out there doing a lot of stuff. So

28:41

you leave Parsons and very quickly you

28:43

meet your of former business partner Robert

28:45

Duffy. Yes and you set up for

28:47

a brands. right? Yeah, Robert was

28:50

that that Parsons show and he

28:52

was working for a company called

28:54

Ruben Thomas. It was the Seventh

28:56

Avenue companies who made arms is

28:58

very very dynasty like dresses. you

29:00

know, lots of beating, lots of

29:02

shoulder treatments for a designer core

29:04

Jonathan Hitchcock. So Robert was working

29:06

in the showroom and he was

29:08

running the showroom selling these dresses

29:11

and it was very successful. But

29:13

Ruben Thomas wanted to go into

29:15

what they called the Junior Market

29:17

but it was at. It was

29:19

starting to start up where it

29:21

was with a contemporary markets because

29:23

it was kind of more sophisticated

29:25

and in a different world than

29:27

this junior market in a which

29:29

was kind of the sixties early

29:31

seventies terminology. So

29:34

they were looking at different designers

29:36

to do this, known known designers

29:38

and then Robert. Poo. They

29:40

trust a very much said let's not

29:42

take someone known, let's start a new

29:44

person and give them a chance to

29:46

do this. And I just saw someone

29:48

at Parsons the same Smarts Acres and

29:50

I think he said design this new

29:52

line that we're gonna do So that's

29:54

how it all started. And.

29:57

He learns on. the job yeah i

29:59

learned on the job I knew nothing

30:01

about how to do this. They set me

30:04

up on like a little, like, grungy little

30:06

building, and I didn't

30:08

know what to do. I was like, how do I find

30:10

a pattern maker? Where do I make appointments to look at

30:12

fabrics? Like, I don't know how to do any of this.

30:15

So I just asked people, and little by

30:17

little, I had a

30:19

studio with two seamstresses and one

30:21

pattern maker and one cutter, and

30:24

I, you know, I learned how to do it. What

30:27

made you decide to take the

30:29

Perry Ellis job when you did?

30:31

Were you a natural fit for

30:33

it? Were you an unlikely fit?

30:35

So I think it

30:38

always depends on who you ask sort of

30:40

thing, but Robert McDonald, who was a great

30:42

friend of Perry's, very close to Perry, was

30:45

basically, he was running the estate and

30:47

the design business, and I

30:49

used to, I met Perry when I first

30:51

started working at Charvary, but briefly, I went

30:54

up to him as a 16-year-old, and I

30:56

said, oh my God, you're my favorite designer,

30:58

and what would you suggest I do because

31:00

I really want to pursue this career? And

31:02

he said, well, my two assistants are at

31:04

Parsons, that's what I would suggest you do, go

31:06

to Parsons. But I used to see Perry once

31:08

in a while. He lived at the Epithen, which I was on 72nd

31:10

Street, and I think that was like one

31:12

or two blocks over. So once in

31:15

a while, I see him on the street, and

31:17

he invited me to a show that he did

31:19

at Saks, I did that. And then just cut

31:21

to years later, he's no longer alive. He's gone.

31:24

And Robert McDonald, I guess

31:27

Patricia Pastor and Jed Crisella were

31:29

Perry's two assistants, both Parsons students,

31:31

and then Patricia was made like

31:33

the head of the design at

31:35

Perielis, the women's design at Perielis. And

31:38

Robert McDonald was there, and being

31:40

this great friend, and he and

31:42

Carrie Donovan, who you might want

31:44

to explain who she is, I

31:47

guess they thought I had a

31:49

certain whimsy in what

31:51

I was very naively

31:53

making and showing. And

31:55

I guess it was Robert who

31:57

felt that I had the spirit.

32:00

Perry. Maybe not the experience, definitely

32:02

not the experience of Patricia, but

32:04

the brand had become, I mean

32:06

Patricia was making nice clothes, very

32:08

nice clothes for women who were to

32:11

work, you know. And I think

32:13

Robert's mindset was like we need

32:16

to get back to the spirit

32:18

and the whimsy of what Perriellos once

32:20

was. So he chose

32:22

me and I couldn't say no. Kerry

32:25

Donovan, another legendary fashion editor,

32:28

famous for those iconic

32:30

ground glasses. And the New York Times

32:32

Magazine, Fashion of the Times. The

32:34

collection everyone knows is grunge, but can you tell

32:36

me about the first one you did for Perriellos?

32:39

So the first collection for Perriellos, I mean

32:41

I got a lot of hell for that

32:43

too. It was a very weird time at

32:46

Vogue. Grace Mirabella had just

32:48

been let go and Anna took

32:50

the job of editor

32:53

in chief and Anna was

32:55

a big team, Marc Jacobs. She had come

32:57

to some of my shows when she was

32:59

at HG, right?

33:02

Somehow, you know, we

33:04

had this sort of

33:06

connection and so she had

33:08

championed me and supported me before she

33:10

came to Vogue. And when I

33:12

showed my first show for Perriellos, it was a lot

33:14

of these little bucket hats and

33:17

satin and odd materials of velvet

33:20

and all of the girls had like a bob. It

33:22

wasn't meant to be an homage to Anna, but of

33:24

course that's how everyone read it. And

33:26

it was very kind of, well at the

33:28

time I felt it had like the spirit

33:30

of Perri. It had, you

33:32

know, we did these American flag cashmere

33:34

blankets in crazy colors like bubble

33:37

gum pink with oak or yellow and

33:40

the girls were wrapped in them. And there was like

33:43

such sort of spirit

33:46

in the colors and the shapes and everything and Anna

33:49

applauded it. But then there were

33:51

all these old school friends of the

33:54

House of Perri, which included maybe, you

33:56

know, some of the Mirabella crew

33:58

and some of these other people. And they just

34:00

thought I was a heretic, because I had taken this

34:02

brand that they felt they owned, not

34:05

owned, but you know, they were in a different

34:07

place. So

34:10

they didn't like that I was there, or what

34:12

I was doing there. But then you had like

34:14

this new guard who was like saying, yes, this

34:16

is exactly what we need, you know? So it

34:18

was one of those moments. And that was three

34:21

years before the actual ground show. So,

34:23

I mean, it's the whole subject

34:26

coming up again of this generational

34:28

change. When

34:30

it happens in fashion, it can be quite jarring

34:34

for the people who've been around. Well,

34:36

I think the thing is, again, it's

34:38

like going back to my shrink in

34:40

this discussion is that somehow

34:43

we're all smart enough to know that

34:45

change occurs, but there's also

34:47

something maybe in some of us that

34:49

thinks, well, of course change is gonna

34:51

happen, but it won't affect me, or it won't happen

34:53

to me, or something. Talking

34:56

about the grunge collection though,

34:59

did you anticipate the reaction that it

35:01

would cause? Did you welcome it? So

35:05

there were some seasons at Perriella's where I got

35:07

my hand slapped after the first one, and I

35:09

thought, okay, I'm gonna do what I guess they

35:11

expect of me, which is clothes more for women,

35:13

like the ladies who lunge. I

35:15

somehow thought that my position needed to

35:17

look more like Bill Blass than like

35:19

Mark Jacobs. I don't know why, but

35:22

that's what I did. And I did that for a couple of

35:24

seasons, and I was like, I can't do this.

35:27

It's like it doesn't feel good, and I'm not

35:29

enjoying it, and it doesn't seem like to be

35:31

working, whatever. And so we did a collection

35:33

called the Rock and Roll Circus, or that I

35:35

named the Rock and Roll Circus, and then I

35:37

felt like, okay, this is what I wanna do.

35:39

I wanna do top hats and lizard pants and

35:42

tailcoats, and I wanna have fun

35:45

and make noise. So

35:47

that was that, and that led, and

35:49

then I felt so good about that,

35:51

that pursuit of the grunge collection, and

35:53

responding to what I was really loving

35:55

in photography from Corin Day, David Sims,

35:57

Jurgen Teller, the music of Corin

35:59

Day. Courtney Love, Sonic Youth,

36:03

Kurt Cobain, you know, all of that was

36:05

what I was loving. And there

36:07

were, I mean, and I had friends

36:09

who looked like that, you know, and I just thought like,

36:11

this is what I want to do. I want to respond

36:14

to what I really feel and what I

36:16

really love. And that was grunge. So

36:18

that, I mean, that's how that came about. And

36:21

did I think it was going to have the response it

36:23

did? No, I think it just felt like people are going

36:25

to like it or they're not going to like it. I

36:28

didn't think it would be such

36:30

a topic of conversation or of

36:32

such interest, you know. You, your

36:35

job was terminated at Perry Ellis.

36:38

Did you think it was the end of your

36:40

career? And what go back to that moment? How

36:42

did how did it feel? Well,

36:44

I actually wasn't terminated right

36:46

after right after the grunge collection. I

36:48

mean, it was shortly after I did

36:50

start working on another season, but then

36:52

they decided to discontinue the women's collections.

36:54

I mean, I have no shame around

36:56

the idea of being fired for the

36:58

grunge. I think it actually makes it

37:00

better, you know, like, oh, you were

37:02

you were fired. You were let go

37:04

because it was such disgrace. I mean,

37:06

that sounds so much better than probably

37:08

what really happened. But I

37:12

didn't know what was going to happen. I knew I

37:14

remember talking to Robert and thinking, like, well, what are

37:16

we going to do next? And we couldn't we had

37:18

a non-compete thing. So we weren't allowed to work for

37:20

a year. But then we also got this financial settlement

37:22

and we decided to open a store. And both Robert

37:24

and I were like, this is

37:26

what we love to do. So we just

37:28

have to find a way to do it

37:31

again, you know. And then I started doing

37:33

a consulting job. He mortgaged his house. We

37:35

had the settlement money from Perielus.

37:39

So we opened the store in Mercer Street, which we

37:41

couldn't actually open because we had no money left to

37:43

make clothes. So that

37:45

was kind of a funny backwards way of doing

37:48

things. It was a great store. And

37:50

very quickly, in a matter of years,

37:52

there is another major milestone. You get

37:54

appointed to Louis Vuitton and a big

37:57

job because Louis Vuitton is a big

37:59

business. Louis Vuitton had never had ready to

38:01

wear. And you did the unexpected,

38:04

you could even say iconoclastic thing

38:06

of your first show showing practically

38:08

no handbags, right? One. One.

38:11

Yeah, I mean that was amazing to get that

38:14

job. And I mean it would be

38:16

very difficult to explain all the feelings that came

38:18

up and all the fear. And

38:21

that first collection, yeah, I felt

38:23

like I couldn't win. You know,

38:25

if I did what people expected,

38:27

meaning covered everything in the monogram,

38:30

then they'd be disappointed because they got

38:32

what they expected. And if I didn't

38:35

do what they expected, then they'd be disappointed that I

38:37

didn't give them what they wanted. So I just thought

38:39

I was screwed, you know. And also

38:41

there was no archive to look at. There was no

38:43

nothing. So

38:46

I did a lot of like mental

38:49

masturbation and I was like, hmm, what is it

38:51

really about? What is Louis Vuitton? What is the

38:53

essence of Louis Vuitton? And I came up with

38:55

this idea that really what it is is this

38:57

monogram. And if I celebrate it, then

38:59

that will be good. That

39:03

will be what people want. But that

39:05

first season, I was adamant about not

39:07

doing it. So you know,

39:09

all the monogram was inside a white

39:11

bonded cotton raincoat or underneath the buttons

39:13

so you couldn't see it. And

39:17

to put myself back in

39:19

that moment, I

39:21

think what I felt was, you know,

39:24

you made Louis Vuitton cool. Like it

39:26

didn't have a sense

39:28

of coolness for people in

39:31

fashion. It was an established brand,

39:33

a legacy brand. It was

39:35

for old rich people is how

39:38

I felt when in my 20s, you know, and

39:40

suddenly it was something that we

39:42

all wanted. Yeah. Or no,

39:44

I mean, I just completely owe

39:47

it all to him really. And

39:50

he trusted me with this

39:52

huge brand, even though the people who

39:54

he had put into these very

39:57

big positions were not.

40:00

necessarily happy with his choice of

40:02

me to do this. They

40:04

weren't happy with the idea of ready to wear.

40:06

They weren't happy with the idea of change. They

40:08

weren't happy with an American, a young American designer

40:10

coming in and deciding what

40:13

this future would look like. But

40:16

I remember, you know, as I struggled with

40:18

some of these obstacles and people, you know,

40:22

once in a while I'll have lunch with Mr. Arnaud and

40:24

he'd say, like, don't worry about them. I

40:26

hired you for what I believe you

40:28

can bring and if you, you know, just don't worry about

40:30

them. Just do your thing.

40:33

And I think I

40:36

did the first thing that I did that

40:38

gained like some recognition and commercial success was

40:41

what I called monogram vernie. And

40:43

my idea was to, you know, use the monogram

40:45

embossed so that you see it and don't see

40:47

it and to bring a new surface like everything

40:49

was so dull and a bit masculine and coloring

40:52

at Vuitton. But this is the way to

40:54

do color, shine, monogram, you know. And

40:57

he was impressed by it, Mr. Arnaud. And he took

40:59

one of the bags home to show his wife and

41:02

she thought it was very attractive, which was a good

41:04

sign. And so they went with

41:06

it and that was a big success. And I

41:08

think that helped me to build confidence about

41:11

introducing things that were not expected.

41:15

So then I invited Stephen Sprouse

41:17

to come and deface the monogram

41:19

with graffiti, which hours

41:21

there were like, this is

41:23

not allowed. You cannot touch the monogram.

41:26

I didn't listen. I just did it and like

41:28

sent it out and to their horror. And

41:31

of course, there were waiting lists for

41:33

bags, you know, and they'd never experienced

41:35

that before in their whole career.

41:38

I remember those too so

41:40

clearly. I sometimes see other

41:42

editors carrying their vintage pieces on

41:44

the airplanes to the shows. So

41:47

talking about longevity. And

41:50

you of course had other collaborators at

41:52

Vuitton too. Takashi

41:55

Murakami, the

41:57

Japanese artist, Richard Prince, the American artist.

42:00

artist. Yeah, Yoy Kusama

42:02

also. Right. Yeah. That,

42:04

the whole collaboration thing is a topic

42:07

that people are always interested in hearing

42:09

from me on because I think now

42:12

we live in a time where

42:14

this idea of collaboration is like

42:17

so mainstream but at the

42:19

time where I invited Stephen in

42:21

or Takashi in it was, I

42:24

romanticized my position at Louis Vuitton. I was constantly

42:26

thinking what does it mean that I'm here, you

42:28

know, and I thought my name's not on the

42:31

door, why am I doing what I'm doing and

42:33

what should I be doing and

42:35

I thought of myself, this New Yorker in

42:37

Paris and I thought like wow when I

42:39

think about the history of fashion and I

42:41

think about Coco Chanel and I think about

42:43

Scaparelli, who were two of my heroes, I

42:46

think they were always collaborating with Jean

42:48

Cocteau or Picasso on a set or

42:50

all this and I thought that was

42:52

a magical time where people who were

42:54

in creative positions, they didn't even think

42:56

of it as collaborating, they just, they

42:59

gravitated towards each other and they made

43:01

things together and they had ideas and

43:03

they just, and I just thought like

43:05

oh that's what I'm gonna do at

43:07

Vuitton, I'm gonna use my role

43:09

here as a way to bring in

43:11

other creatives that I can make things

43:13

with. Coco Chanel and Elsa

43:15

Scaparelli were two of your heroes you said.

43:19

Did you know about them at a young

43:21

age? How did you sort of start understanding

43:24

that you were interested in fashion?

43:27

I knew I loved clothes and I knew I was

43:29

excited when I got back to school clothes and I

43:32

think, I mean there must have been

43:34

some movies where I loved what the women were wearing.

43:36

I mean I definitely at

43:39

an early age saw you know

43:41

adult movies that I mean

43:43

I don't mean adult as in porn, that

43:46

was later. I saw costumes, I

43:48

mean whether it was

43:51

Jane Fonda include in a Brown Norrell sequin.

43:53

You know like I didn't know that it

43:55

was Norrell but as I got interested in

43:58

Liza Minnelli and Cabaret or how Barbra

44:00

Streisand, hello Dolly, now this is like the gayest

44:02

list ever, but Judy

44:05

Garland, I mean perfect gay

44:08

list, or Marlene Dietrich, all

44:11

those iconic women,

44:14

then I found out, or

44:16

Mae West, and finding out like, oh, it was

44:18

Scaparelli who did this dress for Mae West, and

44:21

it was so and so who made this dress

44:23

for Jane Fonda, you know, and then I had

44:26

such a huge appetite for anything fashion.

44:29

You live with your paternal

44:31

grandmother when you were a

44:34

teenager, did she have magazines around, was

44:36

she interested in fashion? Well, okay,

44:38

so she was very interested in fashion,

44:40

she didn't, I wouldn't say she had

44:42

magazines around, but she did shop

44:45

at Bergdorf and Saks, Lord and Hiller, Bonwood and

44:47

Teller, a lot of these places are no longer

44:49

around, but Saks is, Bergdorf

44:51

is for sure, but my grandmother

44:54

loved to get dressed, and she, even if it was

44:56

to go to the corner to get to,

44:59

you know, to get to go to the butcher, and

45:02

the supermarket, she, it didn't matter, she

45:05

spent her time and had her

45:07

process and her rituals

45:10

and routines. We've

45:12

talked a lot about aging, and

45:15

the challenges. I'm sorry. No, I

45:17

mean, it's something I think about every day. What

45:20

do you think is the best part? I

45:23

don't know that I'm fully there

45:26

in terms of, I

45:28

mean, I certainly accept it. I mean, look, I'm

45:31

alive, I'm well, I'm healthy, I have wonderful

45:33

people in my life, I get to, I'm

45:35

working on a house and making it just

45:38

into this beautiful place, and I get

45:41

to work in fashion, which I love, still love,

45:44

with a group of incredible, talented

45:46

people. So there's so much good,

45:48

right? And I started really

45:50

enjoying quiet time and calm

45:53

time. I mean, it's very unusual for

45:55

me. I am... really

46:00

getting pleasure out of

46:02

doing things like reading

46:04

a book in quiet or waking up

46:07

and having coffee and seeing the sunrise.

46:09

And it all sounds so cliché and even as

46:12

I describe it, it's like, oh, that is so

46:14

old. Like, you know what I mean? You

46:17

are so old. You're like watching the sunrise

46:19

and reading a book in the afternoon and

46:21

getting, you know, going to bed

46:23

early. It's like, oh my God, as I

46:25

say it, I'm just laughing. Speaking

46:28

of reading, because I see you

46:30

posting on Instagram reading, what are you reading now?

46:32

I just started Our Lady of the

46:34

Flowers by Jean-Jeanne. Enjoying

46:38

it? I'm actually

46:40

on the introduction by Saartre. So

46:42

I'm not sure it's already a bit of a trip, but I'm

46:44

sure I'll get into it. And anything

46:47

that you've read in the last few

46:49

months that you really liked? So many

46:51

books I've read. I read Myra Breckenridge

46:53

by Gore Vidal. I read Answered

46:56

Prayers by Truman Capote. I

46:58

read The Swimming

47:01

Pool Library. I read, oh

47:04

God, I've read so many books. I read The

47:06

Year of Magical Thinking by Joan

47:08

Didion. Yeah, a lot of books.

47:10

Well, since you mentioned Truman Capote, you have to tell

47:12

us what you think of the swan so far. Well,

47:15

I love Ryan Murphy and I love what he does.

47:18

I think the actor's name is Tom Hollander,

47:21

who's playing Truman Capote. He is phenomenal to

47:23

watch. When he's on the screen, I really

47:25

enjoy it. I

47:28

am enjoying the series because I love the

47:30

subject matter. I just watched

47:32

episode two last night. I went to the

47:35

premiere for the first episode and I love

47:38

Gus Sansant as the director. I mean, there's so much

47:40

to love in this for me. So

47:43

that's my opinion. Yeah. That

47:46

Babe Paley's dress in

47:48

the scene that shot in

47:50

Bodega Bay, where they're in Jamaica, I think,

47:52

that one really got me. I can't wait

47:54

to see the black and white ball. Yeah,

47:56

the black and white ball's always a good

47:58

thing. Do you watch

48:01

anything else on TV these days that you like?

48:03

My favorite show in the world is

48:06

Love on the Spectrum, which

48:09

is the life and dating

48:12

life of people who are on

48:15

the autism spectrum. And

48:17

I've never seen anything that just, I mean

48:19

it moves me to tears every time, every

48:22

one of the people. And

48:25

that just had a new season, so we kind of binge

48:27

watched it. And then in a night it's

48:29

great. And then I

48:32

watch some trashy TV like Love Island or 90 Day

48:34

Fiance. When

48:36

I can't bear to think about anything, those

48:38

are the two go-tos. And

48:42

so tell us about a normal day. You

48:45

wake up to watch the sunrise? Yeah,

48:48

or the rainfall. A

48:51

normal day. So since

48:55

I've been living in this house, my

48:57

normal day is waking up. I

48:59

go make coffee or

49:02

espresso. And I take

49:04

it either over to the window or to watch

49:07

the fish. I have two fish now. And

49:10

I had a few more, but unfortunately some of them didn't

49:12

make it. And

49:14

I love sitting and having my coffee and

49:16

watching these very playful oranda is the breed

49:18

of fish I have. Or

49:21

sitting and watching the sunrise. And usually

49:23

lady, who's our dog, she comes up

49:26

and joins me whether I'm watching the fish or

49:28

I'm on the couch watching the sunrise. And

49:31

then I get showered and ready for my

49:33

day, which typically

49:36

involves, if I'm

49:38

working, it typically involves a commute into the

49:40

city, which I never had to experience before,

49:42

now that I live

49:44

out there in Wry. If

49:48

I'm working or doing things like this, and

49:50

then I think I have Bergdorf Goodman this

49:52

afternoon, then I will sit

49:54

in traffic for a while as I commute home, watch

49:58

some TV or read. or both and

50:01

then go to bed. What do you do on

50:03

your commute? Do you listen to podcasts or? So

50:07

I think I'll probably get to the point of

50:09

listening to podcasts, but actually I really love

50:12

the quiet and I meditate. I

50:15

practice transcendental meditation, so I do

50:17

two meditations a day and one,

50:21

the car is the perfect thing, you know, because you're sitting

50:23

up, your feet are on the ground. I mean, it's like

50:25

you couldn't be more like

50:28

open and connected in some way. Have

50:30

you meditated for a long time? On

50:33

and off. I'm in a program

50:35

for, you know, recovery and meditation and

50:37

prayer are very important parts of that

50:39

recovery and I do both of those

50:41

things religiously every day and it's

50:44

working out pretty well for me, I think. Well,

50:48

that was a good therapy session. Well,

50:52

thank you, Marc Jacobs, for being here. It was

50:54

a great pleasure to talk to you. Thank you,

50:56

Nicole. All right, that's it for

50:59

today's episode. See you

51:01

next week. Bye.

51:11

The Run Through is Vogue is a production

51:13

of Conde Next. The show is produced

51:15

by Susie Lechtenberg, Kelsey Daniel and Alex Salmburn

51:17

with engineering from Jake Loomis, Gabe Kiroga and

51:20

James Yost. It is mixed by

51:22

Mike Putschman. Chris Fannin is Conde Next Head

51:24

of Global Audio.