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00:01 - Ryan Hanley (Host) So, tinsley, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on. 00:05 - Tinsley English (Guest) Absolutely Happy Friday. 00:07 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah, and I will have said this in the intro as well, but I always love having a fellow insurance industry professional on the show when they have then and for those listening, that just cringed a little bit, thinking we're going to nerd out on insurance. We're not right, that's not the point. I love having insurance industry people who have thought about the world in a larger sense and branched out and done something interesting outside of it, and that's why we I mean, when I saw your book, I saw the title, I saw the topic. Obviously, I'd seen a lot of your work and stuff that you've done on LinkedIn and just the way you talk about it and think about it. I just couldn't have been more excited to have you on and really break down a little bit of your story. And then I want to get into the topics that you address in your book. 00:53 - Tinsley English (Guest) Yeah, I'm so excited to be here and I love everything that you're doing around thought leadership and pushing the boundaries. Pushing the boundaries you know we have to do so many things within the confines of the law and within insurance, just following the rules and doing the right thing all the time. That to veer outside and color outside the lines. It's fun to get into the space where we're talking about leadership and how that's coming from within us. And that's really why I wrote this book is just to talk about those leadership qualities that we all have inside of us and where we need to dial up certain areas to really be effective, confident leaders. 01:38 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah. So, and I couldn't agree with you more on that, and I think that you know, I've experienced firsthand the wrath of an industry that does not appreciate innovation or innovative thinking, and I think you, to me, seem to be much better at probably playing a little bit of the game and not not having people throw stones at you. However, at the same time, your ideas are are forward thinking, they are driven, they are determined. I think the message is clear and people obviously resonate with it. So, just taking a step back into into your history, a little bit like where did that come from? 02:20 - Tinsley English (Guest) Like we don't need to go all the way back to to way back to. You know, go back as far as you think is relevant to kind of address like where you started manager level. And these people are looking to me to give direction, to delegate, work out, to help answer complex coverage questions for clients. And I was just not equipped. I tell people I was promoted without an instruction manual. I was promoted to a leadership position without an instruction manual and I failed forward For years. I failed forward and that's okay. I really want people to fail forward, but it was painful, just like falling is painful. Failing forward is painful. 03:29 And what I came to realize when I look back on those days is I was a really great individual contributor, so senior account manager, my clients really were happy with me and my producers were happy with me and I was just really confident in my own abilities. So when I had people reporting to me, I would just expect them to do it exactly like I did it, to handle client questions or client issues exactly like I did it. I wanted all my proposals to look the same. Didn't give a lot of room for innovation, didn't give a lot of room for innovation, didn't give a lot of grace for failure. I would actually probably make them feel bad when they when they didn't do something the way I asked them to. 04:13 And so I look back and I cringe about those times and and also personally, during those times, I was a, I was a mother, I had a three-year-old, three-year-old girl, and I was the first to drop off at daycare at dark 630. 04:31 I can't remember rolling in hot to the daycare at 630 at night last to pick up, apologizing profusely, feeling like mom guilt weighing down on me, mom guilt and then also like guilt from leaving the office couldn't get everything done. So those times, like that time, when I reflect back on it, I know that there are other women in that early career stage right now in leadership, and they're struggling, they're on the struggle bus with that. They are laying in bed at three o'clock in the morning. Did I check this audit in a timely fashion? Oh, also, am I going to make this school play for my daughter this week or do I have a renewal meeting? So it's all the stuff and I'm not saying like at three o'clock in the morning I don't wake up and still have a panic attack about things I need to do, but I can at least self-soothe now. So the book is really coming out of a place where if somebody is getting into leadership especially, let's give her some tools that I didn't have so she doesn't feel like she's going it completely alone. 05:43 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah, I can relate not personally, but and I don't know if you know this about Rogue Risk but our hiring practice we were about 70% either single moms or moms with young children was our workforce and we specifically recruited them because they often got tossed out. And for those of you not in the insurance industry uh, particularly the part that I came from, those are not in the insurance industry who are listening to the show. The part that I came from was the independent channel, which is more like last name. Slash insurance on every road you've ever driven down is my portion of the industry and in those businesses they tend to be very old school and very punch time card punchy. 06:27 So what was happening with these women was they were either single moms, which adds a whole nother layer to the difficulty of what they have to do or they were moms of young children, which is tough enough, and because maybe they had to go to a school thing, maybe their kid got sick, maybe the one time because their entire life outside of work was taken with kid stuff, they needed to do, you know, pack a day with doctor's appointments, whatever they were being tossed out by all these old traditional you know I call them like fat old white guy type businesses where if you couldn't punch in at 830 and punch out at 530, they did not want you. 07:03 And I found two interesting things. One, if you have a little bit of flexibility and while they tend to be tougher to manage only because oftentimes have to be remote and they don't, you know, managing anyone who isn't strictly on this schedule is tougher. 07:16 - Tinsley English (Guest) Yes. 07:17 - Ryan Hanley (Host) You got. I got this incredible enthusiasm and work ethic because they were appreciative of the fact they actually live their frigging lives. So I don't understand why even capitalists, like pure capitalists, aren't thinking this way. And two, the one I'll call it a negative, but really it was just a mindset that I didn't foresee coming. And this is really where my question comes out of was they tended to initially start in a company in a very like territorial competitive mindset, like if I don't protect my territory, I'm going to get fired, I'm going to get yelled at, I'm going to get demoted or whatever. And it took for some of them it took six months, sometimes longer, to go like I I'm not a big fan of like the term, like safe zones, but I'm like you're safe. 08:11 - Tinsley English (Guest) I'm not firing you. 08:12 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Like you're good, keep working. It's psychological safety. It's like, yeah, yeah, psychological safety at work Like that's. 08:20 - Tinsley English (Guest) I think psychological safety is more important than me saying to you like you're part of our family no, I'm really not. You know, we're work, we're work colleagues. But but for you to tell me like, hey, you're safe here, I'm. If I tell you that you've got some flexibility around your work day, I mean it, I'm not just trying to get you in the door, and I grew up with a single mom, so you know I get it Like I was. I was the last one picked up it and I'd go to those awful afterschool programs where they'd like give you a piece of like cheese and bologna for a snack and then like turn you out into the schoolyard and just like to rot until your parents got there. And I mean I. It's probably where my work ethic came from. I had to see my mom grind Like she was a grinder, started her own insurance business I'm sorry, not insurance business. Now you've got me thinking insurance Interior design firm. 09:15 I have an older sister, and from an early age, and this is probably why I just love women so much and women that are just out there getting it done is that my sister and I were always workers. When I was 15, my mom said you know, you've got a job. You're going to work for your uncle. He's a lawyer. He's going to put you to work doing I don't know, shredding files and all that kind of stuff. My sister, we just worked work. We had two jobs at some time during high school and we loved it. We loved having that freedom, we loved having our own money and we liked having that independence. So mom always was kind of like if you find somebody and you want to align yourself with that person in a long-term way, great, but you've got to be able to provide for yourself. And that's what you're saying these women that you've hired are doing. 10:02 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah, how do you? So if someone's listening to this and maybe they just maybe just the idea of psychological safety is something they've never just wrapped their head around, right? How do you, as a leader, start to provide that for your team? What does that look like in practice, so that people know? Break it down and explain what that looks like and how you actually put that in practice. 10:28 - Tinsley English (Guest) So in order to lead with psychological safety, you have to be safe within yourself, and I hope that comes from whether you're reporting to a team of people or you're reporting to just one person. What's your relationship like with them? Are they going to go to bat for you or your team if somebody screws something up pretty royally which can happen Most of the times that we think we've screwed something up, we're blowing it way out of proportion. But I've had a manager one time. He's like I'm just going to give you enough rope. I'm always going to come to bat for you, even if it means my job's on the line. And he created that for me and and I loved it because I was like, ok, I can try things now I can be more innovative. 11:18 Call it like I say this again color outside the lines. But so if you've got that with your manager and maybe you don't have it with your manager, you need to fix it, because in order for your team to feel safe with you, you have to feel safe within yourself and that, okay, they're going to screw stuff up, but I'm going to hold that space for them and go to the mat for them when it comes down to it, and if you don't have the confidence to do that, that's where this book can come in to help you build that, yeah, and so what would be one thing Like, are you having regular meetings? 11:57 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Is it the verbiage that you're using or is it simply you know when these situations present themselves, you have to act accordingly. Like, how do you? It's probably, and it's probably a combination of all of them. But like, if I'm let's say, let's say I own my own business and I got a team of 10, 15 people and I'm sitting here going, you know, I use that term, we're all family, but maybe that doesn't mean anything to them. 12:21 Maybe, they don't even like their family, Ryan. Yeah, I know, and I think you know it's also, it's one of those things, and it's one of those things that sounds really good if you're the one saying it, but when you hear it, you're like yeah, until I mess up, and then you're going to fire me, like so it's regular touch points. 12:44 - Tinsley English (Guest) It's knowing your team. Get to know your team on a personal level and I'm not saying you have to go out with them in a social setting all the time, but take your team to lunch I know we get busy, but take them out and grab something quickly. Get to know what they're like, what they've got kids and what they are interested in, like what, if they've got kids, and what they are interested in. So I think, before you can start to say we're a family, like you, got to get to know that person in a way that they feel comfortable sharing certain things about themselves with you. And then, once you've established a trust, like be present, be there often and, if you're working in a remote setting with these people, set the touch points. 13:27 I have weekly touch points with my remote colleagues and just catch up and what was hard this week, what was easy this week, what did you do better, what did you bring to the table as a solution? So you've got that ongoing dialogue because it's just, it's constant. Like you feel more comfortable telling somebody something if you're talking to them all the time, but if you haven't spoken to your manager in a month and then you've got to tell them something that's built up in your mind of oh my gosh, this thing that was actually very small is now built up. I've been thinking about it. And then if you've done something like if you screwed something up, just come tell me, like tell me as soon as you figure it out. Let me help you, because if you might try to figure it out, on your own, you might dig yourself in a bigger, deeper hole. 14:16 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah, yeah, I uh. Two comments there. One I often think when, like, a business owner says we're all family here, what they're really saying is give me all the slack for all the stupid things that I do, but, you know, not necessarily with the intention of reciprocating that. So basically they're saying I'm going to kind of be a hot mess and act the way I'm going to act and this is my business and I need you to give me the grace because we're a family. 14:39 But I don't necessarily have to reciprocate. That that's at least been my experience. 14:43 - Tinsley English (Guest) And if we're family, then you're going to start to feel like your office is my home and it's not. I have a home, and it's where I like to be at night. 14:53 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Exactly. You know, and I have an anecdote for the touch points I had a very high performing team member that I adored and and she started acting weird and I was like so what you know been maybe a couple of weeks since I touched him with her and I just said, hey, let's have a meeting. She said great and get on. I can immediately tell something's wrong. And I'm just like what's going on? Like you know, her numbers are great, she's doing great, I have no problems with her work, she's awesome, she doesn't cause any problems, she's not complaining, all the things Great, great employee. And she's like you don't talk to me anymore and I'm like, and it like hit me that. 15:30 So I had my and I said to her. I said I was like, oh my gosh, please take my not reaching out to you as a compliment. Like you're not a problem, you're doing great, like I gotta go deal with the problems all day. But what it taught me was and I'm sharing this hopefully for the people that are listening and trying to put themselves in these positions is that my mentality was all wrong. Right, that mentality of if I'm not contacting you, it's because you're doing everything right. That doesn't work, like, that's not the way humans are Like, you know, because if they're doing everything right, that doesn't work Like. That's not the way humans are Like you know? 16:05 - Tinsley English (Guest) No, because if they're doing everything right, they need somebody being like hey you're killing it, and even if it's just like, a quick text like you're killing it. You're awesome. I'm here. I'm here to support you. I had a manager at some point turn that phrase to me what can I do to support you? Or I'm here to support you, and that just was it resonated with me and I use that a lot like what can I do as your leader to support you? Because it's typically the other way around, like if I, if, you're my boss. 16:39 I'm saying what, what do you need me to do? 16:41 - Ryan Hanley (Host) yeah, I actually. I picked this up from a high school sports coach that I had Very, very forward thinking. Today I think this would be more common language, but at the time it was not. And he, he, like he. But right before the season started he sat us down and he basically said my role here is simply to make you the best versions of you. Right, like, it's not about me, like, because I'm the coach, no one cares, I don't care, it's, that's. My job is to make you the best version of you that you can be. So if I'm yelling at you or I'm instructing you or I'm you know, it's only because I think you are capable and want to act Okay. 17:31 So that has always resonated with me and, you know, I think, something that is not shared enough, even though I think a lot of leaders believe this. They just simply and what I'm taking from what you're saying, and let me know if I'm wrong is that oftentimes I think we have the right thought or intention in our head as leaders, but we believe that our people are mind readers, right, we believe that they somehow can read our minds. So we don't communicate with them. And that was my problem for a long time was that I just assumed they knew that I thought X or thought they were doing a good job. 18:09 It's like you still work here. I'm happy at you and I haven't yelled at you ever, so why would I have a problem with your work product? But? But I wasn't telling them. I think this is great, this is wonderful. Keep doing more of this, Thank you. Like I wasn't doing those things for a long time and, um, that was a huge shift in my leadership and the productivity and the general atmosphere of your business changes when you start to do that stuff. 18:28 - Tinsley English (Guest) And even if you've got a high performer and they are killing everything that you've you've put in front of them, they still need some like OK, you're killing this, but you know they, like high performers, still need stretch goals and you know that might be where you and that high performer establish those together. But if you've given me, you know, three boxes to check and I've checked those three boxes for 365 days don't just let me sit over here and keep checking them. I need three more boxes to add on top of that to stretch, because, as a high performer, unless you're giving me that, I'm going to get bored and I'm probably going to disengage. 19:09 - Ryan Hanley (Host) I want to change topics slightly. One of the primary bullets in your book and one of the key things that I've seen you talk about in some of the marketing and inside the book is this idea of lacking a sense of direction, and I think that this is a hundred percent true in our direction and I think that this is 100% true in our business and I think that it extends into right now. In our current moment in time, in our society, it feels like a general lack or sense of direction is very common or is as common as. 19:43 I've ever perceived it to be in my lifetime. One in general why do you think that is? And two, how do we like, when you're talking to someone or you have a mentee or a team member and they bring this up or you get this sense, how do you start to coach them out of that? 20:04 - Tinsley English (Guest) So I'm going to answer the second question first. 20:07 - Ryan Hanley (Host) You can answer it. I'm not going to tell you. 20:09 - Tinsley English (Guest) I have an answer for why there's a lack of sense of direction, but I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to just kind of guesstimate. So the one thing that I do in the book is that I talk about what your core values are and I want to know what, and I give you some questions to even go back to like an early, early childhood memory. Let's start to talk about a time you felt good, a time that you did something. Well, what was that and who was with you? And I want you to start to try to picture what, what that was like and those, and then start to like, draw those core values out of you. And I give you a list of 50 different core values, but I give you space to add your own. And so once I've gotten those established, then we want to craft a personal vision statement, and that is I am Ryan and I'm going to use my core values of X, Y and Z over the next five years to blank, and that's usually impact blank. It's impact the brokerage community, impact my clients, and I want you to fill in the blank. So for my personal vision statement, outside of my role as an operations leader, I want to impact as many women as I can with this book and this message. It's like a million, a million target right now. A million women target. I think that's a little small, so I need to probably up it. 21:34 But once we've got that personal vision statement established and you feel good and it needs to feel so good that it's more than an elevator pitch it's you feel tingles like, you feel excited when you say it and you can do this. You know, I like you to do it to where you're integrating your personal and your professional life so that everything's always in alignment. If your personal vision statement for your work is completely different from that of your life, you're going to have some conflicting ideas. So once we've established that, then we break it down into short, medium and long-term timeframes and so you can kind of reverse engineer what you need to be doing today to get there. And I don't know if everybody's having these conversations with themselves or with their reports, but I wish somebody had had that conversation with me rather than you know. Here's our company culture. These are the three things that our website says that we believe in. You should believe in them too. Let's go to work that we believe in. 22:49 - Ryan Hanley (Host) You should believe in them too. Let's go to work. I don't think nearly anyone is having these types of conversations. I was reminded by a friend the other day. My biggest problem is often that I'm interested in too many different topics. It's a big reason why I do the podcast, because it gives me my outlet to talk to so many different people and learn so many different things. 23:04 But I was nerding out on some topic and blathering on to a friend of mine and he goes. I got to stop yet and I go why? And he goes I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. And I said what do you mean? I go? You've never thought about I think this is going to sound ridiculous, but I think I think I was debating the allocation of physical hard assets that you should have in your investment portfolio. 23:32 It doesn't matter, it literally doesn't matter. And he goes I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never thought about that. And I go you've never thought about you know, and what about this? And what if this happens? And inflation and the economy? And he's like nobody thinks about this. And what if this happens? And inflation and the economy? And he's like nobody thinks about this. What are you talking about? And I don't mean that as anything special to me. I mean I think most people are just trying to survive day to day. 23:55 I honestly think they wake up, they interact with either their family or whoever. They try to get through the morning. They get through the morning, they get in their car, they drink their coffee or whatever. They get to the office. They try to survive the office for eight hours, maybe have a little fun, maybe crack a joke, but really they're hating it. They get done, they get home. They try to get through the evening. They turn on the TV, pop some ice cream, watch some TV, go to bed and do it again. And I get that. 24:20 - Tinsley English (Guest) Yeah, hey, I've been there too, I will tell you. I've been that girl sitting on the couch watching Netflix and just binging out and trying to just unwind, you know, and getting into that loop where every night looks the same, every day looks the same. You don't even, I don't even know what I did on the weekends, like chopping, like Target and just running around, and I felt like I was running around in circles many times and that's really no way to live. I don't want people to live that way. 24:47 I want people to wake up and be jazzed about going to work, because they know that they've got some people there that are going to push them and that are going to challenge their ideas and, like you said, make them a better version of themselves. 25:01 And you know the great thing about all this stuff we're talking about it doesn't cost anything, I mean you know, my book's on sale right now for 99 cents, because you know why I don't care about making a million dollars from this book. I just want people to have a sense of purpose and I think if you can figure out what your sense of purpose is, that translates to every area of your life. 25:23 - Ryan Hanley (Host) I completely agree. I think, uh, I think the word passion is used too much and the word purpose is not used enough. 25:29 - Tinsley English (Guest) If I had some friends that are really big on purpose and they help you delve down into that purpose. 25:35 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah, uh, passion. I have nothing against passion, but to me passion is a derivative, it's not. It's not a first principle, it's when you find, the times when I personally have been the most passionate about anything were the times when I was most dialed into my purpose in the thing that I was doing, be it recreational or business. You know I am incredibly passionate about coaching kids, sports. I love it, I love every second of it. 26:08 But it's only because you have a lot of patience then, yeah, and I just, I, you know, I feel like we treat our kids like they're idiots and I don't treat them that way and I have so much fun with them and we joke and we laugh and I yell at them and I, you know, I call them dummies because they are like you're freaking 10. You're a bunch of dummies. What are you talking about? You don't know anything. Your brain's not even developed. You're talking to me like you know what you're talking about and and. 26:35 But my point in getting that is the reason I'm passionate about is not because I like spending entire weekends of my life on a baseball field. I mean, I don't like of my life on a baseball field. I mean, frankly, I don't like that. I don't like that a lot actually. But, man, I love helping these kids and it's a part of the purpose of my life is helping these kids and talking to them and showing them why. 26:54 You know, I had a kid who got drilled the other day, absolutely drilled by this pitcher that threw really hard, and for kids this age eight to 10 in particular, that can be a very shocking experience for them. 27:10 In some cases, because we live in such a soft society today, it's the most pain they've ever felt, ever in their life, so they don't know what to do with this. And helping coach them through that, not only to just get through the moment, but to ultimately get back up and get in that batter's box and actually give it a real try. Get back up and get in that batter's box and actually give it a real try. Like you know, there's something there, okay. So it's kind of this idea of like I could be miserable out there, I could be standing there. It's raining, I live in the North, it's cold, you don't want to be outside, it's terrible. You've lost 10 hours of your weekend on baseball fields and dealing with these kids and you know or you can, but I'm passionate about it because of the purpose, right. So I think that this thing and what you're doing, what you're doing is you're. 27:54 - Tinsley English (Guest) They're gonna remember you forever, ryan. These kids are gonna remember you. I was the worst softball player you can fact check this in glenn county georgia ever the worst, and I said I played it for eight years like I didn't have my dad around. So I you know my mom certainly wasn't trying to throw a softball with me so I didn't really practice. But I had the best coaches and they didn't care. They just put me in right field so I maybe a ball will go out there. Sometimes I'd be the catcher, but I'd be the one that would just be like dropping the day ball so I don't, but I remember. 28:24 I remember a handful of my coaches and they were just like Tinsley, you're so bad but you have the best attitude. I just wanted to be part of the team. So you've got those kids on your team I'm sure the ones that aren't good and now they're going to remember you. They're not going to remember how they're going to laugh about how bad they were, but they're going to remember the way that you made them feel. 28:47 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Well, I mean, I hope, but I think, I think, I think, going all the way back to the question of like lacking a sense of direction and how we get out of it. 28:56 To me, what it sounds like your exercise and the work that you do through the book is is essentially helping them find what that purpose is, and I think so. Then you had stated that you weren't sure how many people actually thought about this stuff, and I think the answer is not a lot. If they do, they give it lip service, not real work. So you've shown them the path. You've given them a project and a work product to do that's going to help them start to break free from this sense of being stuck. We'll call it how. 29:31 How do you coach these women and anyone that's listening? How would you coach them through the consistency and maybe this is in the title of your book, the grit piece. How do you coach them through it? Cause it's going to. The first couple of days are amazing. Oh, I'm journaling. Oh, yeah, you're high on the yeah. And then the third day you're like, oh, this is terrible, I don't want to do it Right. Or my kids my kid woke up too early and I couldn't do it or too late, or whatever, like, how do you have an ear? 30:01 - Tinsley English (Guest) infection. My kid gave me an ear infection. I know they're not contagious, but now we're everybody's sick, like when you have kids in daycare, like you get every little thing that you get. That didn't mean and this was before we could work from home, when I was growing up in this business, so I was dragging myself to work sick as a dog, and so I see what you're saying, like how do you get them to keep coming back? How do we? Yeah, so that that's like everybody thinks that grit is just rolling up your sleeves. 30:28 But, um, the resilience part of grit is dealing with that setback and and kind of easing into the to that time when it doesn't feel good and and when it's, it's longevity. So grit is longevity, it's not being in it to win it for a minute, it is and I did not mean to rhyme there, but I did it's being there in the long haul and knowing that, like your life and your career are going to have peaks and valleys, and the valleys are not fun and sometimes you cannot see how long you're going to be in that valley. And one thing that I do and we can go back to the grit and the resilience piece but one thing I do in the book is compare careers to an amusement park, and I've got a little poem at the beginning of the book and it's talking about this roller coaster. So if you think about management in a way that you've gotten to the amusement park and you're going to get into management, so you've got this nice little merry-go-round carousel over here, it's very prescriptive. You know exactly what you're going to do. This ride is going to go round and round and round and for women especially, like if you're going to get into leadership, they need you to do X, y and Z and they know that you will do X, y and Z because you're a woman and you're going to follow direction and you're not going to color outside the lines and you're on your. You know you're on your carousel horse and you're going around and around. Well, that's not for everybody. I need a little more fun in my life in leadership. So I compare it to say not everybody is cut out for that management merry-go-round. 32:14 If you want more, you're going to get on this leadership roller coaster and so when you think about the grit, that is when that coaster has just left the platform and it is a grind. You have no momentum behind you. At that point You're just crawling, crawling, crawling towards the top. And that's what, like building your early career, or one of those setback times, like nobody's pushing me, I'm doing carrying all this weight on my own to get to the top. And so then you get to the top and you're up there and you can see for miles around and you finally have like the really good vantage point. You can see the forest for the trees. 32:52 But that is where that gumption piece comes in, of the confidence to move forward. And this could be like your first big critical conversation as a leader, your first coaching of somebody through something very difficult, and you don't feel equipped yet. So you're going to have to like, take that leap. You can't stay up at the top because there's another coaster coming behind. You say so you got to move forward and you got to have that gumption to move forward. 33:17 And then you're going really fast. And what have you got to do next? You've got to turn, and the turn is the growth piece. So that is staying on the track. When you've got all this acceleration and you know you kind of want to fly off the rails but you've got to lean into those turns and so that growth piece is it's where I was lacking as a leader. I liken the growth piece to emotional intelligence and empathy. I had very low both of those. I was very low on, so you'll read this in the chapter in my book. But I say that the management mirror. You go around, you're probably going to do okay and you're not going to remember the ride, though the leadership rollercoaster. 34:02 The ticket is much higher and it's scarier, but you're going to remember it. You're going to walk away from that amusement park saying that was a hell of a ride, like I remembered it and my team remembered it. So that's a little analogy that I use and to kind of paint the picture of what we mean by grit, growth and gumption. And the whole idea of the G force principle was something that I'll attribute to my husband. He was not a fan of roller coasters. At an early age His mom dragged him on it because she's a thrill seeker and he's like I didn't cry, but I think he might've cried. 34:40 But he told me one time about as a high school student he went on a physics field trip to Busch Gardens in Florida and they were studying the G-force principle with a roller coaster. And so he started to like explain the whole ride and everything. And I was like that sounds a lot like the leadership, the leadership principle that I just described, the leadership, the leadership principle that I just described. And so when I, when it came time to think about what growth and gumption really was, that's where it's like, that's the G force, it's acceleration, it's moving forward. You're not stagnant or stationary like that. That merry go round, that's stuck in one place. 35:21 So that was a very long winded explanation, but that's how I came up with this principle. No, I think thated explanation, but that's how I came up with this principle. 35:26 - Ryan Hanley (Host) No, I think that's wonderful and I think the roller coaster analogy is is completely on point. I mean it's, and I really like the part about it being memorable. I think that, again, going back to this idea of why do so many people seem to lack a sense of direction, is, I think there is a general, there's a, there's a belief that and I have no idea where it came from but that that if we can't be guaranteed the experience we want, we're unwilling to take a swing at the thing. So what we do is we sit around and we look at all these opportunities and go, ah, that could be fun, but what will I be in 10 years? Or this could be, but it only is going to make this much money. 36:17 - Tinsley English (Guest) Yeah. 36:20 - Ryan Hanley (Host) And so we just stay in this one spot because we're projecting out into the future what we believe it's going to, what this thing is going to be, and I think you're right on it. Like until you ride the ride, you have no idea what it's going to be like. But if you engage, if you step into something, at worst you're going to find something that you don't like to do, at worst Big deal. Or a boss you don't like to work for, or to find something that you don't like to do, at worst Big deal. Or a boss you don't like to work for, or a type of company you don't like to work for. I now know through multiple iterations I am not meant to work in a bureaucracy, absolutely 100% not meant to work in a bureaucracy. I stick out like a sore thumb. I rub everyone the wrong way. 37:03 - Tinsley English (Guest) I'm so surprised at that. 37:05 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Oh yeah, just, it's constant and uh, and you know this has been over and over and over again, um, and and I I've had to embrace that I always thought I love working for teams, like where you know I like working on big projects. Where do you find that Big companies? 37:23 Let's go and it just isn't the path for me, so it's, it's okay. Well, now I know that, so now I can readjust and what that's done is taken. The number of possible directions I could have gone in that maybe was holding me back in the past and said there's only a few options left right. Join a really small business team, maybe be a consultant, start your own business. Like these are the only ways that you can go. Now, for other people, you might try to be an entrepreneur and find you just don't love it. You either like you, because I think the entrepreneur porn of the last like five to 10 years has tried to convince us all that we need to be our own bosses, and I don't think that that's true. 38:06 Not everybody has that discipline and it's not even that not everyone likes it. There's so much stuff Like when I think about my, my, my old agency, Rogue Risk. I wasn't selling insurance and doing big business development deals and stuff all the time. Most of the time, as the founder and owner of the business, I was dealing with nonsense, nonsense stuff, Payroll taxes, oh my gosh, Just just all these nonsensical things that are absolutely part of that position and I think that, um, I guess my point is like I wouldn't know what things I liked and what I wouldn't if I didn't try same with you. Right, you engage in the world, you take the ride, you figure out, I like this, I don't like this, I work well with these kind of people, I don't hear, et cetera. But if you don't get out there and take some kind of action, if you don't get on the ride, you're never going to know. You're never going to know. 39:00 - Tinsley English (Guest) And here's another thing like think about going to like a family barbecue, or you know, you're around your grandparents or you're around your parents or you know that annoying brother in law that everybody has no, not that I have one. 39:12 I love my brother in laws. 39:14 But you know, if you're talking to your family or your friends at a party or barbecue and they're asking you about your day and they're asking you about your work, you and they're asking you about your day and they're asking you about your work, do you really want to tell them some story that is so boring and not memorable that like they're ready to go get the second helping of the horrible potato salad that somebody put out, or do you want them to be like on the edge of their seat wanting you to tell them more? 39:41 So I think that's another thing that people like I want people to be excited about their careers, whether it's a career in risk management or anything. I want I want people to feel like they're going somewhere to do something important, and for me it's my. My thing is I want to leave a legacy. I want, when I exit insurance, when I exit anything, I want people to say she was here and what. She didn't matter, because she made me feel this way, just like we talked about with your kids on the field. You want people to remember you in a way that you made them better. 40:16 - Ryan Hanley (Host) I agree. So I have just a couple questions left. I'm going to be respectful of your time and of the audiences. To be respectful of your time and of the audiences. I last question on this particular topic is I'm positive that there are people listening to this part portion of the conversation going. That all sounds great, but I hate my job and I hate my company. There's no place for me to go and I'm never going to get a leadership position because of insert, whatever reason of insert whatever reason. 40:48 You know what am I supposed to do. How do you, how do you respond to that person that looks at where they are and feels like there is? 40:59 - Tinsley English (Guest) no possible way of moving forward, and we've all felt that way. I would say I need that person to kind of give this book a chance, because we work through some of these challenges. You might feel like you're stuck. You are definitely not stuck. You need to sit down and really evaluate what you hate about your job. Is it you hate your boss? Is it you hate the task you're doing? Is it you hate your boss? Is it you hate the tasks you're doing? Is it because the tasks that you're doing are not aligned with your, your personality and and what gives you that spark and that, that initiative? If you just got this, I hate, I hate this. 41:39 We need to figure out what you hate about it and what you can't change anything about your job, whether it be asking for a different role or reporting to a different person. You need to look at other opportunities. I mean, you're never absolutely stuck in something. You owe it to yourself to peek through the door to see if there are other opportunities, and I just don't want anybody to ever feel like they are completely stuck where they are and that that goes back to the acceleration principle, even if we're putting one foot in front of the other every day and that's all you can do. You're going to look back and and a year and say, okay, I've gone. I've gone a mile further down the road. So I don't want people to ever feel like they are stuck. And if they do feel stuck, I want them to reach out to me because I'll help them get unstuck. 42:35 There are lots of different ways to approach a career change or a reevaluation of where you are at that current point in time. 42:47 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Okay, I love that. So three questions to finish the show. Okay, you take over a new team and 20 people on it Doesn't matter how many people on the team and you are tasked with giving them one book that will guide their relationship, either working with you, or will set the expectations for what you you expect out of them, and it cannot be a book that you've written. 43:16 - Tinsley English (Guest) Oh, it cannot. Like that was hard, oh gosh. Um, I love the Purpose Factor by Gavin Brian Boucher. That's one that really drills down to why you're here, to why that person's here, and it's got a lot of life lessons and business lessons in it. 43:39 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Nice, I like it. The Purpose Factor Very good. Okay, question number two Finish the show here. When you are at your best, how do you show up in the world? 43:52 - Tinsley English (Guest) When I'm at my best and this has been true throughout my career when I know that a conversation that I've had or any kind of interaction that I've had with a person, I can see that spark in their eyes and I can see that they believe in themselves or they've started believing themselves again, I am like on fire, so jazzed, Like there's no amount of money in the world that could compare to that. That is a feeling and that goes on building that legacy. When I'm at my best, it is when I get a note or an email or a call from somebody and says hey, I took your advice or I reflected on a conversation and I've started to take this next step to change the direction or to reframe the situation. That is what gives me, like the joy beyond anything else. 44:49 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Yeah, and so one. I would just like to second that one. I refer to it as rocket fuel, like when you even sometimes it's like a simple one line DM of like hey, read your article, like on, you know I'm running through a wall, whatever, whatever the thing is it, it, it it. It validates all the creative thought, like everything you've done to put yourself in the position to be able to help that person, and validates it. And it's like it's like dropping rocket fuel into your engine. 45:19 And I will tell anyone who's listening who maybe has never felt that feeling and don't worry, this is, it's not like it happens every day for me and a long time before it ever happened the first time. So I'm not you know, but if that hasn't happened for you, I encourage you to try to cultivate that feeling, as tinsley just described, and to do so. It is simply as just like hey, man, what's going on, how you feeling today, what's up? Right, ask somebody, like literally be interested in another human being, listen to what they have to say, and sometimes it's as simple as just going like you know what I've been, I'm right there with you, man, I feel you, I can, I can have, and like just simply letting someone know that they're not alone in the world can be enough to change someone's entire day. It's it is an amazing feeling. 46:03 And I just want to add to that Ryan is as a leader, there is a superpower in vulnerability. 46:10 - Tinsley English (Guest) Like for me to tell you, don't tell. Like I don't want you to tell me that, oh, it'll be okay, everything will be okay. Like you can say that stinks. Like I went through that, I actually just made that mistake last week. Like, as a leader, you're supposed to be at a level with your team that they, they see you screw up, you know and you're OK with it and that's that's. It brings back the psychological safety. So, being a vulnerable leader and letting your team know like I don't have this all figured out, and that's like early motherhood. Like some mothers make you feel horrible because you don't have it figured out, and others will be like, girl, you've got this. Like we've all done this. It's just that's what I want to convey. Like, as a leader, you have the superpower of vulnerability and you have to be willing to like check your ego at the door and let your team in to see who you are. 47:01 - Ryan Hanley (Host) I love it All right, last question. 47:06 - Tinsley English (Guest) Tinsley, do you have children or a child? 47:07 - Ryan Hanley (Host) Do you? I do. Okay, you have a daughter, okay, so you uh are able. Now, this is not the case, because we all give our children a million pieces of advice, but let's say you were only able to give your daughter one piece of advice, one fun thought, one concept that would put her on the path to be the best version of herself, in whatever way that shows up in the world. What would that be? 47:39 - Tinsley English (Guest) I would say, make an impact on somebody else every single day would say, make an impact on somebody else every single day. I love that Tinsley, it's been an incredible honor to have you on the show. 47:52 - Ryan Hanley (Host) I'm so happy. I, I, I, I. You know I had notes and stuff and I got your uh Amazon listing up and the entire time I've been staring on number one release on Amazon. So happy for you, incredible conversation. Um, the book is grit, growth and gumption for women. Uh, uh, create your own G force code system. I love it. Uh, uh, we'll have links to the show in in the show notes. We'll have links to the book so you can get them there. Uh, if you Google it or you go to Amazon, you're going to find the book. Highly recommend it. I appreciate the hell out of you. Thank you for being here. 48:24 - Tinsley English (Guest) Oh, thanks for having me.