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by location. Okay,

0:31

guys. Today I've got I've had a lot of

0:33

courageous people on the show a lot, but I don't

0:35

know if there are too many that are more

0:37

courageous than the guy that I'm speaking to today. Massab

0:40

Hassan Yusuf, how are you doing, sir? Hey,

0:43

brother. Thank you for having me. Well,

0:46

of course, my pleasure. You know, I've I

0:48

watched you. I think when your original

0:51

book came out, Son of Hamas, I think

0:53

it was 2010 and New York Times bestseller.

0:55

I started seeing little clips of you and

0:57

then you kind of disappeared for a while

0:59

and then you resurfaced now with a vengeance.

1:01

And so it's such a thrill to be

1:03

talking to you. Maybe we could

1:05

start, Massab, by saying

1:07

to each other hello in Arabic so that

1:09

people know that we are the real deal.

1:11

Kif sahfak. Okay,

1:42

so I just asked him, I just asked wasab

1:44

but first we just did

1:46

niceties hi, how are

1:59

you and then I said is your

2:02

accent a Palestinian accent because for example

2:04

we're Lebanese Jews and there there are

2:06

a lot of similar accents

2:08

between the Lebanese Jews and the Syrians

2:11

and some Palestinians and he said that

2:13

his accent is one from Ramallah okay

2:16

maybe we could start was have you have an

2:18

incredible you know

2:20

story your life story can you give a

2:22

quick five ten minute summary for people who

2:25

don't know your work what your trajectory in

2:27

life has been it

2:32

has been a challenge since

2:35

day one and whatever truth

2:37

we have how

2:41

do we convey such paradox

2:44

or even metrics in some

2:46

situations it's

2:48

a complicated situation I made

2:50

very difficult choices you

2:54

can say I'm a rebel in nature

2:57

but I'm not always in

3:01

a fight even though since October 7 you

3:04

say that I came with vengeance I

3:07

did not want this I did not want to talk

3:09

about the Middle East period because it

3:11

doesn't make sense for anyone who's outside

3:13

that but I think this is

3:15

my dharma it's my

3:18

moral responsibility it

3:21

was not just enough to deflect

3:23

from Hamas and draw

3:25

the line that even

3:27

though I was brought up in a conservative

3:31

Muslim family they

3:33

believe that they are

3:35

Palestinians, Arabs, nationalists whatever

3:37

it is I made

3:40

very different choices because

3:42

I don't

3:46

think violence can

3:49

bring peace to anybody in

3:51

that region I did

3:53

not believe in suicide bombing attacks especially

3:55

suicide bombing attacks which

3:57

was widely considered as a form of revenge

4:00

Even today, after

4:02

October 7, people have the audacity to

4:04

actually say what happened in October 7

4:06

was justified or a form of

4:08

resistance. And I think

4:10

this is the moral dilemma

4:12

of the children of this conflict

4:15

and now a new generation, a

4:17

global generation that is joining the

4:20

conflict. And we

4:25

want to justify our position.

4:28

Many people say, you know, I was born

4:30

Palestinian means that I

4:33

don't have moral responsibility towards the rest of

4:36

humanity. I'm a victim.

4:38

And here is my victim narrative. And

4:40

they go on and on magnifying their

4:43

suffering. We understand that they are suffering.

4:46

The human experience is

4:48

based on suffering. Now to

4:54

the fact that I was born for Hamas leader,

4:56

which, you know, I loved my father. There are

4:58

many people think that I had issues with my

5:00

father, but it's untrue.

5:03

My relationship with my father was excellent,

5:05

with my family was excellent. I loved

5:07

them. They loved me. But

5:11

my father's business has

5:13

been a very, very bad business. And

5:18

this is where I have to choose. You know,

5:20

do I stick my

5:23

head in the sand and just say

5:25

I'm part of this culture, of this society and

5:28

resistance is justified. Let's just go

5:31

on for eternity trying to annihilate

5:33

the Jewish people. Or let's say

5:35

to annihilate the Israelis. What's the

5:37

difference? It

5:41

was nonsense and suicidal mission,

5:44

especially for someone who

5:48

was familiar with

5:50

Hamas leadership, not only Hamas leadership,

5:53

its military wing. I

5:56

was in the Assad meetings. In.

6:00

Fact. I

6:02

abroad the information that can them the

6:04

as a lot of fat after winning

6:07

the. Nobel

6:10

Peace Prize. Earth

6:12

Either one. Who. Brought the

6:15

information of his direct connection. To

6:18

sort suicide bombing? that? that's. And.

6:20

That was very serious. You're. Not

6:22

the double faced of

6:25

what's the cold, the

6:27

revolutionary guards, or the

6:30

masters of the Palestinian

6:32

cause. A and

6:34

how. They have

6:36

been deceiving the everybody. A they

6:39

did not care for the should bring in

6:41

fact. They. Wanted the

6:43

supreme to die. This has been there

6:45

game. And this is

6:47

a very sensitive issue because eyewitness

6:49

so much bloodshed the and and

6:51

the first but a second intifada

6:53

an hour was ask myself why.

6:57

And the V

6:59

Widespread Narrative. On

7:02

the Palestinian sweets was in

7:05

all because of occupation, colonialism,

7:07

a apartheid, The

7:09

same a broken record that

7:11

the some other people around

7:14

the globe actually have been

7:16

repeated. So but how long

7:18

you can lie to somebody

7:20

that on our suffering, our

7:22

problems, our corruption, our earth

7:24

A abuse of women have

7:26

shifted Ring of Power. Ceiling

7:29

from public money. And

7:32

they use incident as human shields or

7:34

a During the First Intifada, Yasser Arafat

7:36

was sitting in luxury. and

7:38

other but as the new leaders. And

7:41

they wanted the syndrome to confront

7:43

the tanks and the modern army

7:45

so they can show the world.

7:48

A A. A

7:51

wronged image of what's going on. So.

7:54

This nonsense of were

7:56

irresponsible. and

7:58

the all irresponsible,

8:01

they are criminals. This

8:04

entire revolution is a revolution, most corrupt

8:07

revolution, led by the most

8:10

dangerous con artists of all time

8:13

who have been actually trying

8:18

to globalize the chaos and the violence. And

8:22

so basically this background did

8:24

not mean that

8:27

I would submit to

8:29

the religion, to the belief system, to the

8:32

political system, and I

8:35

followed my moral compass, but I

8:37

had to disconnect

8:39

from that world. I mean, you cannot be

8:42

just one leg in and

8:44

one leg out to say, you

8:46

know, the Palestinian cause but reject

8:49

violence. Somehow it depends on

8:51

violence. It's a violent cause.

8:53

It has been like this. Even

9:01

those who tried to make

9:03

peace, it was a tactical thing for

9:05

the Palestinian Authority after

9:07

the First Antifada that

9:09

they weren't sincere actually

9:12

in their peace approach.

9:15

To them it was tactical to just return, then

9:17

continue from there. I don't like hypocrisy and

9:24

I don't like when people lie, especially if it

9:26

is going to lead to enslaving generation after

9:33

generation after generation

9:36

for how long and

9:38

for the sake of what. So I lost my faith

9:42

in what's so called revolution because

9:45

what I came to realize from early age

9:47

that the revolution was

9:49

only for the sake of revolution.

9:52

It was not a revolution with a moral,

9:55

ethical, compass

10:01

that the revolution knew

10:04

where they are heading. So basically

10:06

I can go on and on

10:11

for hours what actually made

10:13

me make

10:16

the change and reject the

10:19

environment of my early life conditioning.

10:21

But was it, I mean was

10:23

there a catalyst you

10:26

know you witnessed you

10:28

know episode XYZ that really flipped you and

10:30

you know made you realize things or was

10:32

it a gradual thing where at five or

10:35

six years old you were you know I

10:37

tell for example the story of how when

10:39

we grew up in Lebanon and you know

10:41

we'd go to the synagogue on Saturday morning

10:44

and I would ask my father you know

10:46

why are we now standing, why are we

10:48

chanting this, why are we doing this and

10:50

then he would answer you know just shut

10:53

up and do, don't ask questions and that

10:55

to me even as a five six-year-old intellectually

10:58

inquisitive boy didn't

11:01

sit well with me. What do you mean

11:03

I just get up and sit, I don't

11:05

just fall, I explain to me and so

11:07

already there I started having doubts about you

11:09

know the organized rigidity of religion.

11:12

So in your case is it something that

11:14

you could say you know I was seven

11:16

eight nine ten years old already having doubts

11:18

or it's only when you became heavily involved

11:20

at a later age as the

11:22

son of the co-founder of Hamas that these

11:25

things came to you know to be clear

11:27

to you. Look

11:30

of course I did

11:32

not have the realizations

11:34

that I have today

11:36

somehow anew them deep

11:38

in my consciousness but it's

11:40

an evolution and

11:43

people want to reduce my life

11:46

experience with

11:48

all the adventures in it in

11:52

the public world and in the secret

11:54

world of terrorist organization and the most

11:56

powerful intelligence service out there they want

11:58

to just reduce me. to

12:02

a victim, somebody who's

12:04

got issues with his father

12:06

or someone who's got issues

12:08

with Hamas. They

12:10

don't understand that this is

12:13

a sole purpose and

12:18

there lies, there

12:20

false narratives, false

12:22

accusations, all attempts

12:24

to discredit my

12:27

life journey will go in vain.

12:32

And hence I stand firm in

12:34

my truth because what I witnessed

12:36

since childhood led me to this point.

12:39

When we talk about society that

12:44

justify anarchy,

12:49

how can we blame this on

12:53

Israel or on the United

12:55

States, on the colonizers? This

12:58

is a failing attempt to

13:01

export all

13:03

our problems, including social problems and

13:05

cultural problems on some hypothetical

13:08

entity that we did not know about.

13:12

So in principle this I

13:14

did not like. I did not like to see

13:16

a father hitting

13:19

his daughter in

13:22

the city square with

13:25

a metal pipe on

13:28

her head again and again

13:30

and again until she died. Well

13:34

the public were watching and nobody

13:37

did something about it. No

13:39

one tried to stop him. Why? Because

13:42

he's the father. He has the authority to

13:45

kill the woman because the woman is a

13:47

property in that society. Now

13:50

this is not only one event in childhood.

13:54

It's happening all the time. And

13:56

in fact there is

13:58

no punishment for the anarchy. killing. So

14:01

a father can kill his daughter or a brother

14:03

can kill his sister. Then after

14:05

that there is no punishment. They just

14:07

give the gun to the Palestinian Authority

14:09

police station and they don't

14:12

spend even one night in prison. So

14:15

now when we are dealing with

14:17

such brutality, you know, where

14:20

the rape victims

14:23

being punished equally

14:26

as a rapist and

14:29

that's protected by the belief system, this

14:31

is protected by the

14:34

culture, it's the agreeable. Then

14:37

the cousin

14:40

violence, then the factional

14:42

violence, rival parties,

14:46

each one of them belong

14:48

to a foreign entity, they

14:51

have different masters and they have

14:53

extreme political

14:55

views, irreconcilable

14:59

in some cases like in Fatah and Hamas

15:02

and they are all claiming that

15:04

they are fighting for Palestine. I

15:07

said no, what I see, my

15:10

first hand observation, you are burning

15:12

our people to death. You

15:15

don't care for the children, you want people

15:17

to die and all you care about, money

15:20

and power. This has been

15:22

their game. So the

15:26

things went really south when I

15:28

was in Migiddu prison. I

15:30

spent there about 16 months and

15:33

this is where I witnessed Hamas brutality

15:38

for him. My

15:41

father told me we have

15:43

to emancipate or let's say

15:46

in the occupation and

15:48

his version of in the occupation meant

15:50

the ethnic cleansing of the Jewish people,

15:53

When establishing an Islamic state,

15:55

not a Palestinian state. This

15:57

is a very important point.

16:00

The. People need to understand that

16:02

most of the Palestinian factions they

16:04

are not even national. Organizations.

16:08

They are foreigners or at least

16:11

they are serving foreign entities. So

16:13

now when you want to go

16:15

on such a suicide mission, You.

16:18

Want to ah approved

16:20

a super power. Super.

16:25

And then you want to establish?

16:28

An Islamic state on the rubble of

16:30

that power? What does

16:32

this really meet? It's

16:35

means and the illusion of everybody.

16:38

And could be a global war. So

16:40

how could this be cool? How could

16:42

any rational mind. Accept

16:44

such an absurd

16:46

agenda. I don't

16:48

want to say they say. It's criminal

16:50

only, but it's a bit

16:52

of the definition of madness.

16:55

This is what madness. Is

16:57

all about. And what animates this?

16:59

And I mean I think you'll agree

17:01

with you, but I'd be like to

17:03

hear your perspective. So growing up in

17:06

Lebanon, as a Jewish person even and

17:08

tolerance, progressive, modern love and on. Jew

17:11

hatred was a banal part of

17:13

the dna of society, right? People

17:15

throw it at you like it's

17:17

nothing. It's rain today. God damn

17:19

do I got diabetes. Goddamn. do

17:22

my wife cheated on me. It's

17:24

the Jew who put that. So

17:26

I presume that you, growing up

17:28

within the Palestinian Territories, you are

17:30

exposed very early to Jew hatred

17:32

and less. Let's. Make

17:34

it clear it's Jew hatred,

17:37

not Zionist hatred, Correct? Yeah,

17:40

absolutely say all of the offense

17:42

to date that them and say

17:45

oh yes, we are not anti

17:47

Jewish people but we are anti

17:49

Israel. Which. Which

17:53

my opinion is even worse to

17:55

say that. because this

17:57

minute police it and

18:01

using, juggling

18:03

with words to

18:05

hide the ill motive that

18:08

we know that the Arabs and

18:11

the Muslims have fundamental issue

18:13

with the Jewish people. And

18:16

this conflict

18:18

in the Middle East is

18:20

not a political conflict and it's not

18:22

a conflict about the territory. About land,

18:25

yeah, exactly. Or about land. This is

18:27

why many people want

18:30

the artificial reasons.

18:33

They don't have the courage to dig

18:35

deeper that we have hundreds of millions

18:37

of Muslims around the world that have

18:39

been weaponizing their

18:41

religious identity against

18:44

a religious minority in that region and

18:46

they wanted to cease to exist. It's

18:50

not only Israel, what about me? What

18:53

we did in the second Intifada,

18:56

risking my life on

18:58

a regular basis trying to stop Hamas

19:00

from blowing up and

19:03

buses markets,

19:05

universities, killing people

19:08

indiscriminately in an

19:10

era where Arabs, Jews, Christians

19:12

or even Muslims were

19:15

killed during

19:17

Hamas suicide bombing attacks. So

19:21

to take a stand against this

19:23

brutality, and I was never against

19:25

the revolution or against the resistance

19:28

or against my people. We said

19:30

Arab life and Jewish life. There

19:33

was no difference. So

19:37

why to be sentenced to

19:39

death? For taking

19:42

a moral stand to say no to

19:44

shed in blood, no to

19:46

killing people indiscriminately, where

19:48

do we draw the line of

19:50

what's so called resistance? To

19:53

become barbaric by the name

19:55

of resistance, then discriminate against

19:58

peaceful people. My

20:02

major at university was history and

20:05

I allowed myself to study forbidden

20:08

books about the

20:10

Holocaust, for example, which

20:12

the vast majority

20:15

of the Arab world are

20:17

not educated when it comes to the Holocaust because

20:19

they deny it. Even in the

20:22

most respectful educational institutions

20:24

in the Arab world, they reject

20:26

the Holocaust. And

20:29

now we see actually October 7

20:31

was just almost a moment ago and

20:33

we see the amount of denial that

20:36

it did not even happen. So

20:40

the denial of the Holocaust and

20:42

on the contrast me studying and

20:47

reading about the Holocaust, it was a

20:49

heartbreaking experience.

20:52

The rise of Nazism also

20:54

was fascinating.

20:57

I don't want to say

20:59

fascinating, but a dangerous phenomenon.

21:02

How fast? Within five years, how

21:06

the Nazis were able to convert and

21:09

misguide the herd towards

21:13

unjustified Jewish hatred, which eventually led to

21:16

the death of millions of people.

21:21

So there

21:23

has to be a

21:26

line, like where do we draw the line? I

21:29

understand the frustration of

21:31

people when we are going through

21:34

war, the chaos of war.

21:36

This is understandable, but

21:39

we cannot hate others

21:41

because they are non-Mazmites. We

21:43

cannot hate others because they are different. We

21:46

cannot go

21:48

on inciting and

21:53

shaping generations and

21:57

feed them on hatred towards

21:59

other religions. And

22:01

this is what eventually led me to study

22:03

other religions and I

22:06

start my criticism of Islam and

22:08

Allah. So there

22:10

are so many things. There is what

22:12

actually the foundations of my truth where

22:14

I stand today. Some of it

22:16

is political. Some of it is personal. Some

22:19

of it is ideological. And

22:22

some of it is moral

22:24

and fundamental principles.

22:27

Do you think, so some of

22:29

the people that I've talked to through the years put

22:32

on an optimistic lens when it

22:34

comes to Islam and they say

22:36

if they're honest enough to admit

22:38

yes Islam contains a lot of

22:40

content that is completely incongruent with

22:43

our values here, let's say in

22:45

Western secular societies. But they will

22:47

then add just like other religions

22:49

were able to reform,

22:52

certainly Islam can be reformable.

22:55

Now I've often argued that actually

22:57

that is an impossibility because if

23:00

Islam is the final inerrant word of

23:02

God by definition it could not be

23:04

changed. There's

23:07

not a single letter, a single syllable

23:09

that should be changed. So

23:11

you really are at an impasse where

23:14

from a doctrinal perspective you cannot reform

23:16

Islam. So having said that, my first

23:18

question will be can you reform Islam?

23:20

And then my second question is

23:22

can Islam coexist peacefully

23:24

within a Western context?

23:29

Look, in

23:32

order to reform Islam we need

23:34

someone with the higher authority than

23:36

Allah itself. As

23:39

long as this individual

23:43

under the umbrella of Islam or the

23:45

constitution of Islam, they don't have authority

23:47

to change the Quran. They

23:50

may have the authority to have

23:52

their own interpretation and

23:55

put some nice twist to it, sugar

23:58

coat it, and change it. try

24:00

to make it, you know, fit in the

24:02

21st century. But

24:05

can we do this with every

24:07

Islamic law? Can we do

24:09

this with every verse

24:12

in the Quran? I

24:16

cannot think of anybody who has

24:18

that authority. And

24:21

all the Islamic religious

24:25

centers or educational institutions,

24:28

they don't have that authority. They

24:30

are all under the burden

24:32

of a book that

24:34

was not even written during the

24:36

days of Muhammad. It was written way

24:39

after his death. Muhammad

24:41

himself claimed that he was illiterate,

24:44

meaning he did not write it. Or

24:47

when it was scripted, he

24:50

did not have the tool

24:54

to verify what others

24:56

wrote on his behalf. Then

24:58

it was collected some 150 years

25:00

later, some accounts say 400 years. So

25:10

how can I consider this

25:12

book legitimate? Then

25:14

the Islamic Sharia,

25:18

the Islamic

25:20

law itself,

25:23

it cannot meet with

25:25

the demand and the

25:28

modern day problems for

25:31

humanity. If I

25:34

want to go around and start butchering

25:36

people, cutting their hands, cutting

25:38

their arms, cutting their legs, because

25:41

of felonies or because of crimes,

25:43

they are committed, stoning

25:46

people in the

25:48

city centers, killing

25:53

rapists and rape victims in the

25:55

same place. What

26:01

about Jihad? This is

26:03

one of the biggest problems. Most

26:05

religions are delusional and they need

26:07

to be actually integrated. They have

26:09

the essence and the intelligent people

26:11

see the essence of the way.

26:14

So, and they can integrate it

26:16

into a higher consciousness. That's possible.

26:20

The Sufis were able

26:22

actually to see Islam beyond

26:24

politics and beyond

26:28

man-made laws. Because

26:30

if you are spiritual in your

26:32

essence, if you are sincere and

26:34

devotional, you will

26:37

arrive at the truth eventually

26:39

because with humility and devotion,

26:41

truthfulness, discipline, fasting,

26:44

praying, this

26:47

is not a political thing. But

26:50

who those actually need

26:53

the politics

26:56

or they need the religious mask? Those

26:58

are the ones who are insecure. Those

27:01

are the ones who just sheep.

27:05

They don't have authority over

27:07

their own lives and they

27:11

cannot escape the cave of

27:13

religion. It's

27:16

their security, it's their identity, it's everything

27:18

they know. So, hence,

27:23

they want now to convert everybody,

27:25

the rest of the universe, to be like

27:28

them rather than trying to

27:30

integrate to a higher consciousness. So,

27:33

there are so many fundamental problems about

27:35

Islam. Jihad is

27:37

the most dangerous aspect

27:40

of Islam that is not available in

27:43

other religions. Not

27:45

only to be delusional in your

27:47

belief because Muslims

27:50

say that they

27:52

are believers. And I say, well,

27:54

believing is not enough. It's

27:57

either you know or you don't know.

28:00

Don't tell me you believe or you disbelieve. So

28:04

the fact that they say that they are

28:06

believers of Allah as

28:08

entity that sits on a throne at

28:10

the corner of the universe that who

28:13

has been prepared in a hellfire for

28:15

all the infidels and

28:17

the majority of humanity who are

28:19

non-Muslims sounds

28:25

absurd. So how do

28:28

you, someone who had your personal

28:30

trajectory in life, who's coming with

28:32

all the, you know,

28:34

you have all of the credentials and right

28:37

imprimatur to say, I know what I'm talking

28:39

about. I don't need some,

28:41

you know, undergraduate at Columbia University

28:43

who can't tell where what Islam

28:45

is or what Palestine is to

28:47

be lecturing me. And

28:50

yet we're seeing millions of

28:52

Westerners fall completely under the

28:54

sway of this romantic idea

28:57

of, you know, Islam is the

28:59

language, is the religion of the

29:01

noble brown person. Palestine

29:04

is the land of the oppressed.

29:06

So there's kind of a romantic

29:08

view that is in part shaped

29:10

by this astronomical ignorance about

29:12

the realities that you can certainly speak

29:14

to. How do we get to the

29:17

Westerners to appreciate some of the things

29:19

that you're talking about? Is there a

29:21

way or is it completely hopeless? Well,

29:23

it takes

29:29

manifestation to understand a

29:31

certain theory. For

29:35

those who studied history,

29:38

especially the Islamic history, it

29:41

is not a secret

29:44

what was the

29:47

outcome of an Islamic khilafah. And

29:49

how many khilafahs the

29:52

Muslims tried to actually establish? Can

29:55

you explain what it is for those who don't know

29:57

what that is? literally

30:00

an Islamic state. But this

30:02

Islamic state is not limited

30:05

to political border. It's

30:07

not limited to

30:10

geography. It's

30:12

a global state that it's the

30:14

duty of all jihadists, of all

30:16

Muslims, to fight, to

30:19

fight, to practice

30:21

jihad. And I say this

30:24

is an Islamic obligation according

30:28

all Islamic resources that

30:30

jihad is the

30:33

most fundamental principle of Islam

30:35

and all Muslims are committed

30:37

to jihad. Now, those

30:40

who cannot fight by

30:43

the means of the sword, like they

30:45

are not capable physically or

30:47

mentally, they

30:49

have to donate and they have

30:52

to fund those who

30:54

are able to fight. And

30:56

this shows you why the

30:58

majority, the vast majority of the

31:00

Muslim world are complicit in

31:03

jihad and jihadism. To

31:06

the degree they have failed to

31:08

condemn Hamas up to now.

31:10

Why? Because they know deep

31:14

in their belief that Hamas

31:16

is practicing Islam.

31:21

Now, the fancy idea

31:23

of let's try

31:25

to destroy or annihilate

31:29

civilizations in the West

31:32

and in the East, Islam

31:34

is not only against Christians

31:37

or Jews. Islam is against

31:40

all non-Muslims. And

31:43

that includes Hindus, that

31:45

includes Buddhists, and

31:47

we have a long history of Islamic

31:49

violence against all

31:51

other religious religions

31:57

around the world. For

32:00

people it's fancy because they haven't

32:03

experienced the manifestation

32:05

of an Islamic state and

32:09

or they lack knowledge.

32:12

They are not familiar with the Islamic history that

32:15

I don't want to say millions

32:17

but at least hundreds of thousands

32:19

of Muslims actually killed

32:22

each other in

32:24

the internal Islamic conflict between

32:27

Islamic Khilafas. So

32:29

I don't want to go too far

32:31

with this. The

32:34

Islamic state throughout the centuries, 1400

32:37

years of experience proved to be a

32:39

dead end, proved

32:41

to be a failing model that did

32:43

not work. So

32:46

today as a

32:50

historian, as

32:52

a person who

32:56

is not willing to compromise my intelligence, I

32:59

know that the Islamic Khilafas

33:04

will not lead to prosperity, to

33:06

peace, to stability, to justice and

33:10

it is going only to ignite the

33:12

bloodlust for more

33:15

dominion, for more aggression where

33:19

the Muslim jihadists can

33:23

take women, children as booty,

33:26

they can enslave humanity

33:29

in case they don't convert to Islam. So

33:35

my intelligence does not allow me

33:38

to accept such a belief

33:40

system and many people try

33:42

so hard to

33:44

differentiate, say no they are good

33:47

Muslims and they are bad Muslims. You

33:49

know this game of good

33:53

cup versus bad cup but

33:56

they are both or both parties are

33:58

serving the same God. They

34:00

are serving the same constitution.

34:06

Hence, we have to

34:08

address Islam the way it is. And

34:12

the more we tolerate such

34:15

an aggressive and

34:19

violent mindset, more

34:23

violence will happen. And

34:25

I don't want this

34:28

young enthusiast who

34:30

thinks that establishing an

34:32

Islamic State or a Palestinian State

34:34

on the rubble of Israel or

34:37

an Islamic State on the rubble

34:39

of civilization, what's

34:43

in common between these two entities,

34:45

Palestine and the Islamic State, that

34:47

both of them depend on the

34:49

destruction of that which

34:51

exists? So then

34:53

how do you, so if you

34:55

were, let's say, Masab, you were the

34:57

leader of the free world, you were

35:00

the emperor of reason, would

35:02

you halt immigration from Islamic countries

35:04

knowing that notwithstanding the fact that

35:06

there are millions of peaceful, loving

35:09

Muslims that don't want to hurt

35:11

anybody, Islam itself is problematic in

35:13

terms of it being able to

35:16

assimilate within a Western context. And

35:19

therefore, how could you allow millions of people

35:21

to come into your country that have 95,

35:23

99% of them Jew hatred? You're

35:27

going to get an increase in Jew hatred. I

35:29

live in Montreal 20 years ago. I

35:32

never had to worry about Islam.

35:34

Today, I have to be very

35:36

careful not to wear a Star

35:38

of David that's too big in

35:40

Montreal, Canada. So is the ultimate

35:42

goal going to be Islam cannot

35:45

coexist within the West? Or is there

35:47

a way to my earlier question of

35:50

making it somehow more gentle? Or are

35:52

we doomed? Give us

35:54

some optimism. Take,

36:01

for example, Americans

36:03

from Muslim background. When

36:06

they vow loyalty to the American

36:08

Constitution, this supposed before they get

36:11

their citizenship as immigrants, they

36:14

make a vow to the American

36:16

Constitution and loyalty, national loyalty to

36:18

the United States. This is the

36:20

supreme authority of all Americans. Are

36:25

Muslims sincere when they

36:28

pledge loyalty

36:32

to the American Constitution? Are they

36:34

sincere? Because this contradicts with

36:36

Islamic law. The Sharia law

36:39

does not see any higher

36:41

authority than Allah.

36:44

Whether if it's earthly or

36:46

heavily, Allah is... Don't

36:50

they say Allahu Akbar means Allah

36:52

is greatest? The greatest, yeah. It's

36:55

not the greatest, it's greater. But greater than who?

36:57

Than what, yeah. Than everything else.

37:00

Than the other gods and then

37:02

man, then creation. They

37:04

totally separate divinity from creation.

37:06

And I think this is

37:08

a fundamental problem

37:12

in Islam that does

37:14

not see actually the

37:17

creator and creation as one thing.

37:21

So anyway, we

37:24

need the Muslims who immigrate to

37:27

the West to

37:30

make their loyalty to the

37:32

country that welcomes them and

37:35

give them citizenship. Not loyalty

37:37

to a hypothetical entity called whatever

37:39

you want to call it. Now

37:44

people have the freedom to practice Islam if they

37:46

want. At some

37:48

point I was practicing Islam more

37:51

than anyone else. My

37:54

mother used to say, you were born

37:56

in a mosque when she wanted to give me a

37:58

hard time. When I asked... questions. And

38:01

it's true. Islam

38:03

was our project. My

38:05

family brought Islam back to life. So this is

38:12

where I get my authority to criticize

38:14

Islam. Also as someone

38:16

who went to Sharia school, someone

38:19

who studied the Quran, someone

38:22

who's familiar with the Islamic

38:24

intellect and the different Islamic

38:26

schools, their dialogue

38:28

and their arguments. So you cannot

38:31

be American and

38:34

Muslim at the same time. You

38:36

have to choose. If you

38:39

want to be, if you make your pledge

38:41

and your loyalty to the American Constitution, you

38:43

are contradicting with Allah, then you have a

38:45

moral crisis. So,

38:47

but there is a concept in Islam

38:49

called the Taqiyyah. And in Taqiyyah, you

38:53

can announce something like if you

38:55

were in Dar al-Kofu, which is

38:57

let's say the country of infidels.

39:00

In the country of infidels, if you were

39:03

forced to choose, let's say

39:05

a fake identity,

39:07

let's say American, this is a fake identity,

39:10

but your true identity is Islam.

39:12

So you can hide your true

39:14

identity to avoid persecution and pretend

39:16

to be American in the meantime.

39:19

But when we have chaos, like the

39:21

chaos we experienced in right now regarding

39:23

Palestine, all of a sudden the

39:27

loyalty is not to the American Constitution,

39:29

it become the loyalty to Islam and

39:32

to Allah. Are

39:35

you able to, I mean,

39:39

when you make your

39:41

public pronouncements, have you, is there a

39:44

greater success rate in trying

39:46

to convince the Westerners

39:48

who have romanticized these ideas? Or are

39:51

you able to take some of the

39:53

doubting Muslims and get them to finally

39:55

see the light? Is there a difference

39:57

in your ability to actually persuade others?

40:00

either of these two groups? Look,

40:04

I have been in this, I

40:06

don't know,

40:08

say a mission because I don't have a

40:11

mission, but a journey trying

40:13

to explain to people the

40:16

danger of Islam. And it

40:18

looks like many people are in denial because

40:21

they don't want to accept that there are 200,

40:26

or there are close

40:29

to 2 billion Muslims. About one

40:31

fourth of humanity. A

40:34

quarter population of Earth believe

40:37

in a Sikh religion.

40:43

And I am not going to sugarcoat

40:46

it. It's

40:49

not an opinion, but my

40:51

personal experience with Islam and

40:53

its evolution. Islam

40:56

is a mental illness. And

41:01

Muslims are

41:04

mentally ill. I

41:06

cannot trust them with anything because they

41:08

are double faced, because

41:11

they are conflicted about their

41:13

religious identity. And all they

41:15

know how to demonstrate is violence and

41:17

aggression whenever they are threatened

41:20

in their comfort, in

41:22

the cave of their delusion. So

41:25

it's my moral stand. It's very different than

41:27

yours. You don't have to go there and

41:29

confront them. You can't help the dialogue. But

41:32

I personally don't

41:34

sit with people who want me to cease

41:36

to exist. When

41:39

they push me to the corner, where I'm fighting

41:41

for my life, for a crime

41:43

that I haven't committed, then

41:46

they have crossed all the lines and there

41:48

is no dialogue between me and such people.

41:51

And I will fight. First, I will fight

41:53

the good fight. And I

41:55

will do whatever it takes to defend

41:57

myself. It doesn't matter if they

41:59

are... two billion or

42:01

eight billion, it doesn't matter. So

42:07

to see it in a positive

42:09

way, I think the upper

42:11

hand should be to

42:14

a civil constitution. And

42:16

first we need to demonstrate this here

42:18

in the United States, like the Muslims.

42:20

What is your loyalty? Is

42:22

it to Allah or to the American constitution? Those

42:25

Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, all other

42:28

religions, including Jews in the

42:30

United States, all American citizens

42:33

are under the

42:35

authority of the American constitution. No

42:38

one is above the law. Isn't

42:41

this the rule of the law

42:43

that no one is above the law? But

42:45

for some reason, Muslims

42:48

think that they are above the

42:50

American constitution. So I

42:52

ask myself, why are you in this country to

42:54

begin with? What

42:56

motivated you to come to this country? Is

42:59

it the capitalism? Then

43:02

suddenly now you are changing

43:04

colors and you

43:07

want to turn your back on the country that

43:09

took you in, especially in a war time, demonstrating.

43:18

I would say persecuting religious

43:20

minorities like the Jewish

43:22

people. So what

43:26

I would like to see, whether if it's Arab

43:28

country, Asian country,

43:30

all Muslim countries, that

43:33

they can begin with a civil

43:35

constitution and

43:37

not allow religious authorities

43:40

have an absolute control

43:42

of people's choices. So

43:45

if we can do the first step of bringing

43:50

a civil constitution, then I think people

43:54

themselves will drop many

43:58

of the religious. beliefs. InshaAllah,

44:02

do you still have

44:04

eyes with any of your

44:06

family members or are you utterly

44:09

estranged from anybody from your past?

44:13

The relationship is over a long time ago. With

44:17

everyone. There is no sibling,

44:19

no cousin, no one has

44:21

written to you. With everyone.

44:25

From the beginning, a couple of my siblings wanted

44:27

to stay in touch but I refused. And

44:31

they said, you know, we love you regardless but

44:34

I refused because their life could be in danger

44:36

if they stay in touch with me. And

44:38

also I did not want to complicate it to the

44:40

family. My family got really hurt because

44:43

of the choices that I made. They are

44:45

still hurting and this

44:47

is actually the highest price that was paid.

44:49

I did not pay the highest price. It's

44:51

my mother who paid

44:53

the highest price because she cannot

44:56

understand the choices that I made.

44:59

But this is where I

45:03

really had to choose between my comfort, between

45:05

my security and

45:07

bring the truth

45:09

of the inner work of what's

45:12

so-called Palestinian revolution and

45:14

the origins of this

45:17

complicated issue. It's not coincidental that I'm here.

45:19

And as you said, you know, I disappeared.

45:21

I thought I just did my part and

45:24

I thought I moved on. And

45:26

the fact that I did not come back

45:29

with vengeance, you know, the reason for my

45:31

outrage that I went into silence for a

45:33

very long time. I

45:35

did not even talk to anybody Palestine

45:37

to nobody. Like I did not need

45:39

that. I got shunned by my family.

45:42

I moved on and

45:44

I took responsibility for the decisions that I made

45:46

in my life. But

45:49

then when

45:52

October 7 happened, I

45:56

just could not help. I could not

45:58

help. It brought me back. back

46:00

in the worst possible way because this

46:03

has been my warning from day one, not

46:07

only to my father, not only to

46:09

other Hamas leaders, also to Israel

46:12

and to the Israeli Intelligence Service, to

46:15

the Americans, that Hamas

46:18

was dangerous. But

46:20

in 17 years, we

46:23

did not do what it was necessary to

46:27

prevent Hamas from reaching this fight

46:30

because we have to

46:32

compromise. Wow. I

46:34

mean, I'm

46:36

often asked by people,

46:38

how can I have the courage

46:40

to speak out? I mean, never mind about

46:43

Palestine or Islam. It could be about, you

46:46

know, can biological males compete in

46:48

female sports? And they're too afraid

46:50

to say that, no, that's crazy.

46:53

How could you allow the sexes

46:55

to mix? The

46:57

excuse I always get is, you

46:59

don't understand, Professor Saad, I

47:01

will lose my job. I won't get

47:04

my promotion. I won't get a good

47:06

grade on the exam. So there's always

47:08

an excuse while it's not for you

47:10

to be courageous and speak out. And

47:13

here I have in front of me, you,

47:15

who, I mean,

47:17

never mind today, you're still taking risks, right? There are

47:19

people who might want to hurt you today. But

47:22

you are working within that world,

47:25

the most dangerous possible world, helping

47:27

the other camp, the, the, the

47:29

bad guys, the evil ones, the

47:32

shaitan. And so it

47:34

contextualizes the kinds of risks that

47:36

people think that they're taking when

47:39

they compare it to the risks you have to take.

47:41

So that's point one, I'll see the

47:43

floor to you in a sec. Number two, one

47:46

of the things that I talk about in my

47:49

most recent book, the book on happiness, by the

47:51

way, is that for you to be happy, you

47:53

have to live an authentic life. And

47:55

what you've done basically is exactly that

47:58

because you've said, I'm willing to to

48:00

give up all of the

48:02

love and support of my entire

48:04

family because to not do so

48:06

would be inauthentic according to my

48:09

moral compass. So that's remarkable.

48:11

If you want to add anything to that, go ahead.

48:16

Yes. Listen.

48:19

Most of us live in darkness and

48:24

we create convenience out

48:27

of our narrative, our belief system

48:30

because we're afraid to die. We're afraid of death.

48:33

We're afraid of others. We're afraid

48:35

to be judged. We're afraid somebody is going to

48:37

come and harm us.

48:42

Hence we don't take risk. We don't

48:45

challenge our own beliefs. And when

48:47

someone comes to get us out of it, challenge

48:50

anything that can

48:53

get us out of our comfort, the

48:56

pattern that we repeat on

48:58

a regular basis, then we

49:00

think we have mastered life just

49:03

because we know how to repeat

49:05

a pattern. Well I also

49:07

can train my dog to repeat a pattern

49:09

on a regular basis and they would be

49:11

doing an excellent job. Individuals

49:15

of higher intelligence, we don't accept

49:18

beliefs. As I told

49:20

you, either we know or we don't know. Now

49:25

to be intimidated and swayed

49:27

by the opinion of

49:30

the majority, and this is especially what's

49:32

happening right now, this is not

49:34

the first time I'm in the face of

49:37

a majority of people who live in

49:39

denial. And I am

49:41

not the first individual to say no

49:43

to the system, no to the establishment,

49:46

and no to a sick belief system.

49:50

Many others tried this before, and

49:53

swimming against the current could

49:55

be destructive. But

49:57

we, those.

50:00

when I say we, the handful of

50:02

people who chose to go against the flow

50:05

or the current of a society, we

50:08

take the risk and death is

50:10

part of it. I

50:13

personally make my peace with death

50:15

on a regular basis. In fact,

50:17

death is not a threat at

50:20

all. Death is a friend. And

50:23

as long as we are afraid of death, then we

50:26

are trying to get along. We are trying to please

50:28

everybody. We are trying to please the parents, then we

50:30

are trying to please the teacher, the

50:32

guru, the politician, the

50:34

neighbor, our children,

50:37

and all the irrelevant people to

50:39

our lives. We try just so

50:41

hard maintaining a certain public image.

50:44

What happens in the process that we

50:46

lose our freedom and we lose our

50:49

individuality and we just become what others

50:52

want us to be. I don't accept

50:54

this for myself. And

50:56

yes, it's part of the confusion. People

50:59

are confused about their sexuality, about

51:01

their sexual identity, and we come

51:04

with all

51:07

type of cunning

51:10

methods to justify

51:13

the imprisonment of the mind. I

51:17

don't believe that the mind is the real thing.

51:19

I don't believe that consciousness is the real thing.

51:21

And we are just passing

51:24

through life. Hence,

51:27

it's not our right to take our

51:30

generation, then steal

51:32

the dream of

51:34

next generation, especially

51:37

steal the dream

51:40

of children by

51:42

deciding for them

51:44

what to be, that children were born innocent.

51:48

They were not born Palestinians. They

51:51

were not born anything. And

51:54

it's our responsibility to protect

51:56

them in every possible

51:58

way. not instead

52:01

of gambling with their blood, instead

52:03

of gambling with their future, using them as

52:06

human shields and call that

52:08

resistance. This is where it

52:10

gets tricky. And this requires

52:12

not only the wrath of man or

52:14

the anger of me or

52:17

a hand for people out there that we

52:19

are outraged for

52:21

the use of children as

52:23

human shields by Hamas, for

52:25

sacrificing Jewish and Arab children

52:29

for the sake of Allah and for the sake of

52:31

Islamic State. Hence, we

52:33

have to fight this evil and

52:36

we have to fight united. Now,

52:38

if we get hurt in the process, if we

52:40

get killed in the process, this

52:43

is not the final destination. Everybody

52:45

is going to die. And

52:48

you think those who are playing it

52:50

safe, the mediocre trying to please everybody,

52:52

living the life

52:55

of slavery, do

52:57

you think any of them is safe or

52:59

any of them can hide from death? Wow,

53:03

you are an extraordinary man.

53:05

I mean, you know, there are two guys, I

53:07

think on this show that stand

53:09

out with their courage. The first one you

53:12

may know is the

53:14

guy who was known as Ain Al

53:16

Mosul. Do you know him, Mossad? Ain

53:20

Al Mosul is a guy

53:22

who was documenting the horrors that

53:25

Daesh, ISIS was doing

53:28

in Mosul while

53:31

ISIS was trying to find where he was. And

53:33

he was doing it from within Mosul. He then

53:36

left, he immigrated to France, and

53:38

we had a chat. And I think

53:40

you certainly fit within that level of

53:43

unimaginable courage. Thank you so

53:45

much. But before I let you go, maybe

53:47

inshallah, I'm in that, I'm in the back of the

53:49

house. Are

53:52

there any projects you're working on now any

53:55

books that you're writing that you'd like to

53:57

use this opportunity to promote? In

54:01

principle, I try not to promote any

54:04

books. Maybe you can

54:06

see this clearly on my social media. I

54:09

try not to mix my

54:11

personal interests with this bloody

54:14

situation. Yes,

54:17

I have a book out there

54:19

and there is a book

54:21

coming out, but I do

54:23

this project for fun. I

54:26

wrote a book about

54:29

the life of Muhammad and

54:31

this is one of my biggest projects. I

54:33

spent the last 10 years

54:36

actually writing it. It's a

54:38

very positive narrative of the

54:40

life of Muhammad. I don't know how this is

54:42

going to fit in this global chaos. It

54:44

was supposed to be published within weeks,

54:46

but I put

54:48

it on hold just for the sake

54:51

of the situation. The

54:53

creative process continues, but whether if

54:55

I am here today or tomorrow

54:57

or all of a sudden I

54:59

vanish, and that's possible

55:02

because I'm not dependent on

55:04

this conflict for survival. I

55:07

have a magnificent life somewhere surrounded

55:10

by people I love very much. They

55:15

have nothing to do with this conflict. It's very

55:17

strange for them when I tell them stories about

55:19

human madness in the Middle East. For

55:22

me, this is just a temporary situation. I

55:24

had to come back for this human

55:28

tragedy. What

55:30

I am hoping is that

55:35

we will remove Hamas from power. I

55:38

will not rest in fact until

55:40

this goal is accomplished.

55:44

Whether we go into Rafah or we

55:46

don't go into Rafah, Hamas

55:48

is over. This has been

55:52

written in a different plane. It's

55:54

not up to any earthly authority. I promise you

55:56

that. Sounds absurd, but I promise you that there

55:58

is going to be a problem. be your time.

56:00

You will look back at this conversation and you

56:02

know that I promised you that Hamas is over.

56:04

Hamas is finished. Once

56:07

Hamas is removed from power, people

56:09

need to drop their false

56:11

identities. I

56:13

don't mind if they want to call

56:16

themselves Palestinians, Arabs, Egyptians, whatever

56:18

they are. Muslims, it's

56:22

their right to identify with the devil

56:25

of choice. That's not

56:27

my problem. But if they

56:29

try to weaponize their

56:32

religion against religious

56:34

minorities, risking the lives

56:36

of children, this is something that

56:38

I am not going to tolerate. All

56:41

the freedom fighters around the world will

56:43

not tolerate, regardless of

56:45

a majority of sheep being

56:49

led to the slaughterhouse. Now

56:51

Palestine is a trendy thing and

56:54

many people want to be part of the

56:56

revolution. And I said

56:58

this earlier that a revolution for

57:00

the sake of revolution

57:04

only is not welcomed in

57:07

the United States. Parents

57:10

who send their children to campuses,

57:14

they have the right to know who is

57:16

behind the mask because

57:18

it could be an activist, it

57:22

could be a sampathiah with Gaza and

57:24

the tragedy there, but also can be

57:26

Satan. And

57:28

I don't like to see

57:31

masked people on campuses interrupting

57:33

the educational process, because this

57:38

is exactly what Hamas and the

57:40

Muslim Brotherhood did during the first

57:43

Palestinian Antifod, they targeted schools, campuses,

57:45

then immediately after they targeted economy

57:48

and public transportation.

57:51

So I don't want to see actually an

57:53

Antifod in the United States. In the United

57:55

States it's the way of dialogue. We have

57:58

elections, we have democracy, we debate. Some

58:00

of us win, some of us

58:02

lose. Those who lose accept defeat.

58:05

This is a very different mentality than

58:08

the Middle East who turned their defeat

58:10

into massacres and genocides and ethnic cleansing.

58:13

So this victim narrative that

58:15

is now widespread in the United

58:18

States and in the West could

58:21

be a bestseller narrative. But

58:24

in reality, it's not a true

58:26

story. So with that

58:28

said, Palestinians can

58:30

be whatever they want to be as

58:33

long as they drop their

58:35

mad idea to annihilate

58:37

Israel as long as they

58:41

drop violence as a

58:44

means of achieving political

58:47

agendas. So they

58:50

want to practice Islam. I sit and pray and

58:52

on the sidewalk, I see

58:54

also dog walking around the street and

58:56

it's about the same for me. Oh

59:00

boy, here comes the death threats. Here

59:02

comes the death threats. What's

59:05

up? I'm just maybe in Shabbat

59:07

in that and tabata. Yeah, I wish my

59:09

whole model. What are in Arabic

59:11

means like a champion, a strong guy.

59:15

It's an honor to meet you. Please stay on

59:17

the line so we could say goodbye

59:19

offline. Come back anytime you want. Stay safe.

59:22

And I look forward to hopefully meeting you

59:24

soon in person. It'll be a pleasure to

59:26

share a meal with you. Thank you. Happy.

59:29

You're welcome.